--- Log opened Tue Apr 06 00:00:27 2010
--- Day changed Tue Apr 06 2010
20100406 00:00:27< Crab_> schumi: yes, if one of the player disconnects, and another connects, then the host might want to ask the new player about his new values.
20100406 00:00:49< Crab_> schumi: so, the WML code will need to know about player changes, too.
20100406 00:01:09< Crab_> (but this is rather easy as c++ code knows about that), it'll only need some planning to get correctly.
20100406 00:03:07< Crab_> schumi: don't forget to submit your proposal to google, too.
20100406 00:03:31< Crab_> schumi, Upthorn: any additional questions ?
20100406 00:03:42< schumi> Crab_: so the diference beetwen 2 and 3 is that in 3 there is a game mode dedicated to it?
20100406 00:04:03< Upthorn> Not at the moment. I will let you know if I find more.
20100406 00:04:07< Crab_> Upthorn: ok
20100406 00:04:22< Crab_> schumi: in 3, we dedicate a 'dedicated dummy player' to carry the persistence information.
20100406 00:04:43< Crab_> schumi: there's nothing spectacular about that (from the point of view of mp server and other clients, nothing will change)
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20100406 00:05:36< Crab_> schumi: but, we'll be able to (not a required part of this GSoC), convert it to a specialized 'gamemaster' program which will be able to host multiple games at the same time, storing the gameworld info in a SQL database.
20100406 00:05:36< nagbot> Time for a small public service announcement
20100406 00:05:37< nagbot> Attention all potential GSoC students:
20100406 00:05:38< nagbot> Make sure you commit your proposal at google soon, don't wait until the latest moment just to discover your internet connection is down
20100406 00:05:39< nagbot> http://socghop.appspot.com/gsoc/student/apply/google/gsoc2010
20100406 00:05:40< nagbot> You need to do this until Apr 9th, 19:00 UTC (12:00 PST)
20100406 00:05:41< nagbot> you can still finetune and talk to us about your application after submitting it to google. But, this is just to make sure that you *can* be selected at the end!
20100406 00:05:42< nagbot> You have been warned.
20100406 00:05:43< nagbot> Please submit patches and prototypes so we can see your ideas in action. 
20100406 00:05:44< nagbot> Join the IRC discussions.
20100406 00:07:38< schumi> Crab_: okay. No more doubts for now
20100406 00:07:55< Crab_> schumi: and the it'll be able to take part in multiple games at the same time, allowing for a true 'massive multiplayer campaign'
20100406 00:08:00< Crab_> *then
20100406 00:08:35< Crab_> schumi: ok. what's your plan of actions, for this project ? 
20100406 00:09:34< Crab_> schumi: i.e., there's ~5 students which have selected this project, what will you do to make sure we see you as the best candidate?
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20100406 00:16:05< schumi> Crab_: I don't have a timeline yet, but before the beginnig of the project I will study the code more and the wml. Then if accepted I will try to solve the problem for single player, discussing with developers and the forum for ideas, trying to achieve a good solution.
20100406 00:17:21< Crab_> schumi: it's better to 'discuss with developers and the forum for ideas,' and note the results of the discussions on your wiki page  *before* you get accepted. 
20100406 00:19:23< schumi> Crab_: yes... you're right. It's possible to change the wiki page after submitting the application?
20100406 00:19:23< Crab_> schumi: good luck to you, though :)
20100406 00:19:30< Crab_> schumi: of course :)
20100406 00:19:45< Crab_> just as nagbot says, "you can still finetune and talk to us about your application after submitting it to google."
20100406 00:19:50< Upthorn> Crab_: I only see 3 proposals on the wiki, are there other students besides schumi, Iskander, and myself? Or is it just that 3 is close enough to 5?
20100406 00:20:07< Crab_> there's at least 1 more which is not in the wiki that I know of.
20100406 00:20:19< Upthorn> Ah.
20100406 00:20:31< Crab_> and I think that we'll get some directly submitted to google, bypassing the wiki.
20100406 00:22:21< Upthorn> that seems like a reasonable expectation
20100406 00:24:57< Upthorn> But I imagine that such students would have to be very special to be accepted, having bypassed the wiki (and presumably not having interacted much on IRC, if at all). I am more concerned about the students that are making efforts currently.
20100406 00:25:47< Crab_> Upthorn: yes, in general, a successful applicant should be active, contact us, write a wiki page, etc. but there are always lurkers ;)
20100406 00:26:13< Upthorn> Speaking of which, I should take this time to make an effort and update my wiki proposal like I said half an hour ago that I would do.
20100406 00:26:25< Crab_> Upthorn: afair (may be wrong), from last year there was something about '24 applications in the wiki, 35 in the google tracker'
20100406 00:26:40< Crab_> Upthorn: ok :)
20100406 00:26:43< Upthorn> instead of talking about other students who may or may not be doing so.
20100406 00:32:07< schumi> Crab_: do you have a good estimate for a timeline?
20100406 00:32:36< pokhbocee> Crab_should i use pushcfunction?
20100406 00:33:18< Crab_> schumi:  (1) and (2) until mid-term evaluation, (3) after mid-term evaluation.
20100406 00:33:59< Crab_> schumi: basically, 8 weeks for (1) and (2),  3 weeks for (3), 1 extra week for cleanup
20100406 00:34:17< Crab_> (1) and (3) are easy, (2) is harder.
20100406 00:34:49< Crab_> pokhbocee: depends on what you need and what you're trying to do.
20100406 00:35:04< schumi> yes, (3) is easy if you have already done (2).
20100406 00:35:22< Crab_> true
20100406 00:37:14< Crab_> pokhbocee: If you're about srcdst, then we can just code dst(x,y) and dst(unit) functions, to keep things simplier.
20100406 00:37:33< Crab_> pokhbocee: e.g. dst(x,y) to return all possible destinations for our unit
20100406 00:38:09< Crab_> dst(unit) should be the same as dst(unit.x,unit.y)
20100406 00:38:28< Crab_> and, there'll be src(x,y) - all units which can reach location x,y
20100406 00:38:53< Crab_> and, enemy_dst(x,y) - all enemy units which can reach x,y
20100406 00:39:15< Crab_> oops, enemy_src(x,y) :)
20100406 00:39:33< pokhbocee> i was working on adjacent hexes
20100406 00:39:39< Crab_> pokhbocee: I think that it's better to compose a wiki page with the names and meanings, for that ^
20100406 00:40:02< Crab_> and, about adjacent_hexes, why you need a pushcfunction in there ?
20100406 00:40:04< pokhbocee> Crab_: for which one?
20100406 00:40:10< pokhbocee> can i push an array?
20100406 00:40:25< Crab_> pokhbocee: you can push a table, and add things to that table
20100406 00:40:43< Crab_> pokhbocee: or, you can simply push a list of coordinates
20100406 00:40:58< Crab_> after all, you know that you'll return no more than 12 values
20100406 00:43:01< pokhbocee> Crab_: like this? http://pastebin.com/MivhKLTY
20100406 00:43:44< Crab_> pokhbocee: plus lua_rawseti
20100406 00:44:01< Crab_> pokhbocee: push a table, push element, add element to table, push element, add element to table, push element, add element to table, ...
20100406 00:44:21< Crab_> where 'add element to table' pops top element from the stack
20100406 00:44:32< Crab_> in the end, you'll have only your table on the stack
20100406 00:45:05< Crab_> but you can just do 'push element, push element,push element,push element,push element,push element,...,push element'
20100406 00:45:12< Crab_> that way, you'll return 'up to 12' elements
20100406 00:46:26< Upthorn> Oh, I have a question.
20100406 00:46:40< pokhbocee> so when lua function is called they r returned as a table?
20100406 00:47:09< Upthorn> ... but it might be irrelevant.
20100406 00:47:14< Crab_> Upthorn: the usual policy is 'just ask' :)
20100406 00:47:23< Crab_> pokhbocee: no, it'll return up to 12 values
20100406 00:47:39< Crab_> pokhbocee: and the caller code can do anything it wishes with it, including 'wrap to table'
20100406 00:47:41< Upthorn> It is about the directory-structure of user content addons
20100406 00:48:12< Crab_> it's in $USER_DATA_DIR/data/add-ons
20100406 00:48:34< Upthorn> and each add-on gets its own directory?
20100406 00:48:45< fakedrake> ivanovic: r u there?
20100406 00:48:52< Crab_> yes
20100406 00:49:21< Crab_> inside that directory, the addon author can do anything he wishes. usually, there's either a _main.cfg there, or just several files to be included
20100406 00:49:42 * Upthorn is trying to decide whether $USER_DATA_DIR/data/persistence/$PERSIST_ID.cfg or $ADD-ON_DIR/persist.cfg is a better storage solution.
20100406 00:49:55< Crab_> I prefer the first one
20100406 00:50:25< Crab_> since, for example, if you remove an addon, your achievements will remain
20100406 00:50:25< Upthorn> with the possible third option of $ADD-ON_DIR/persist/$PERSIST_ID.cfg, but yeah I am starting to lean towards the first one as well
20100406 00:50:44< Upthorn> I hadn't yet thought of it when I said that I had a question
20100406 00:51:02< Upthorn> oh yeah, that definitely makes it preferable.
20100406 00:51:04< Crab_> well, it's always good to ask, and get input.
20100406 00:51:26< Crab_> and there might be persistence identifiers not related to addons. for example, the gamemaster server might want to create a new persist_id for each run of the 'massive multiplayer campaign'
20100406 00:51:42< Crab_> s/the gamemaster server/the gamemaster
20100406 00:51:55< pokhbocee> Crab_: what is the data structure that is returned?
20100406 00:52:17< Crab_> pokhbocee: N return values
20100406 00:52:38< Crab_> pokhbocee: see http://www.lua.org/pil/5.1.html
20100406 00:54:45< Crab_> pokhbocee: so you can just return N values, and the caller will be able to wrap them in a {table}
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20100406 01:06:54< Upthorn> I just finished updating my wiki proposal page.
20100406 01:07:11< Upthorn> and was going to ask him to look it over.
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20100406 01:09:05< Crab_> Upthorn: I read the logs
20100406 01:09:19< schumi> Crab_: if there are two people using the same computer, you should be able to store two different data?(for example, two people playing the collect_gold map)
20100406 01:09:47< Upthorn> schumi: yes.
20100406 01:10:00< Crab_> schumi: I think the answer is 'no if they use the same userdata folder'
20100406 01:10:49< Upthorn> oh wesnoth doesn't have user profiles yet, does it? I thought I remembered it having user profiles.
20100406 01:11:04< Crab_> schumi: so, as long as you keep things relative to userdata folder, you shouldn't care about it. there's no way to choose the userdata folder from within the game. if you think that it'll be a good addition, you're welcome to discuss it with other developers.
20100406 01:11:40< Crab_> Upthorn: no, wesnoth doesn't have profiles. but you can consider 'user data dir' as a 'profile'
20100406 01:12:03< Upthorn> User profiles sound like a good idea to consider doing if I am accepted and finish the main task early.
20100406 01:12:28< Crab_> Upthorn: yes, having 'optional bonus ideas' is a good thing.
20100406 01:12:34< Upthorn> the hardest part would be the interface.
20100406 01:13:19< Crab_> Upthorn: 'TODO: Determine suggested format for identifier to minimize chances of collision' -> something usable as a file name, and maybe something containing the addon name. talk with developers at wesnoth-umc-dev and other UMC developers.
20100406 01:13:48< pokhbocee> Darkas_: hey, i think you are implementing the defense part. which methods do you need? are they all exposed to lua?
20100406 01:16:39< Crab_> Upthorn: 'TODO: Determine if persist_id must be provided per-scenario, or per-addon.' - I think that it would be really good if there'll be no need to provide persistence ids upfront, e.g., each addon/scenario would be able to use as many as it wants. some way of suggesting particular names might be a good thing, and this suggesting might be addon-based (since addon server deals with 'addons', not scenarios)
20100406 01:17:35< Crab_> Upthorn: 'TODO: Determine if persistence data is allowable for era addons, or other addons that are neither scenarios nor campaigns.' -> why note ? era can provide wml events, so there's no problems with that.
20100406 01:17:43< Crab_> s/note/not
20100406 01:18:35< pokhbocee> Crab_: what was the command for searching in files was it grap or smth
20100406 01:18:44< Crab_> pokhbocee: fgrep and grep.
20100406 01:19:12< Darkas_> pokhbocee: I don't know ;)
20100406 01:19:17< Crab_> Upthorn: 'TODO: Define behavior for [load_global_variable] when specified from_global does not exist yet.' - the same behavior as for accessing a unexisting local wml variable, I'd say.
20100406 01:19:30< Darkas_> actually, I don't know what methods are existing that might be important
20100406 01:19:53< Upthorn> Oh. I didn't realize there was already behavior defined for that.
20100406 01:20:16< Upthorn> And yeah, I was planning to talk to the umc-devs to figure out a good persist_id format
20100406 01:20:29< Crab_> Upthorn: see http://wiki.wesnoth.org/VariablesWML
20100406 01:21:10< Crab_> Upthorn: also note that a [clear_global_variable] tag might be needed, as well.
20100406 01:21:19< Crab_> the wiki says: 'Querying a variable returns the last value stored in it (or the empty string, if no value was). '
20100406 01:22:12< Crab_> Upthorn: that's all comments.
20100406 01:23:05< Upthorn> as for why persistence might not be allowed in era addons... do era addons have sides?
20100406 01:23:22< Crab_> addon is not played by itself
20100406 01:23:32< Crab_> addon is played in a particular scenario, which'll have sides
20100406 01:23:48< Crab_> so, addon can include wml events, which can deal with scenario info such as  number of sides, sides, variables, etc
20100406 01:24:26< Upthorn> Hmm.
20100406 01:24:37< Crab_> Upthorn: note that it affects your ' When "persist_id" is not provided, the currently applicable id will be used' statement, since there might be multiple 'currently applicable' contexts.
20100406 01:24:44< Upthorn> it sounds like eras might want to keep multiple persistence cfgs
20100406 01:25:00< Crab_> Upthorn: yes, it's np as long as they specify it by name
20100406 01:25:39< Crab_> Upthorn: also, you can provide aliases for persistence_id,  such as 'current_era' and 'current_scenario' and 'current_campaign'
20100406 01:25:40< Upthorn> and by currently applicable, I had originally meant "the id of the addon whose WML is executing the event"
20100406 01:26:20< Crab_> Upthorn: ah, it's a bad idea.
20100406 01:26:38< Crab_> Upthorn: multiple addons can contribute to a particular piece of WML code.
20100406 01:26:45< Upthorn> Ah.
20100406 01:27:03< Crab_> Upthorn: note that WML macroses can be used for this purpose
20100406 01:27:05< Upthorn> I might want to reconsider the storage location
20100406 01:27:46< pokhbocee> Crab_: thanks
20100406 01:28:08< Crab_> Upthorn: and it will work well, e.g., there's no reason for scenario to use 'current_scenario' alias, since it can just include a macro which'll be defined in the campaign header to the correct 'persist_id'
20100406 01:28:11< Upthorn> we might want $user_data[\$current_era_id][\$current_campaign_id]\$current_scenario
20100406 01:28:28< Crab_> Upthorn: why not keep it flat ?
20100406 01:29:35< Upthorn> I suppose we could just have [era][/era] tags in the .cfg
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20100406 01:30:12< Crab_> Upthorn: well, I think it's better to keep it simpler and just store variables in the .cfg
20100406 01:30:15< Upthorn> which would accomplish the same thing, but maybe be easier for users to keep track of
20100406 01:31:10< Upthorn> the idea being to allow each era to keep its own version of persistence data
20100406 01:32:13< Crab_> the problem is that the era is not a part of the campaign, and campaign is not a part of the era
20100406 01:32:41< Crab_> if it was SQL, there could be a table with fields like <era> <campaign> <scenario> <key> <value>
20100406 01:32:47< Upthorn> right.
20100406 01:33:19< Crab_> but,if you're going to implement it on filesystem, every hierarchy would have the problem with certain types of fields
20100406 01:33:56< Upthorn> yeah, it is better to do [era] [/era] sections in the cfg for campaigns/scenarios
20100406 01:33:57< Crab_> e.g., $user_data[\$current_era_id][\$current_campaign_id] would have a problem with data where  <era> is NULL.
20100406 01:34:22< Upthorn> well the idea behind the [] was that they would be optional
20100406 01:34:51< Upthorn> where <era> is NUL, it is $user_data\$current_campaign_id\
20100406 01:35:13< Upthorn> where <era> and <campaign> are NULL, it is $user_data\$scenario_id\
20100406 01:35:44< Crab_> how you will handle 'shadowing' of the data ?
20100406 01:36:28< Crab_> e.g., "X=2 in campaign FOO" and "X=4 in addon BAR", what's the value of X when we play FOOBAR ?
20100406 01:37:10< Upthorn> well the idea is that you have std::FOO::X
20100406 01:37:15< Upthorn> and BAR::FOO::X
20100406 01:38:49< Crab_> ok, but isn't it better, in this case, to just say " 'persist_id' consists of multiple parts separated by ::, no more than N of them; and those :: mean subdirectories " ?
20100406 01:38:52< Upthorn> if we have std::FOO::X and BAR::X, then trying to load x with BAR and FOO currently active would act like X has not yet been set.
20100406 01:39:09< Crab_> and always require the full path to be specified....
20100406 01:39:45< Upthorn> I think you were correct that a flat directory structure is better
20100406 01:40:19< Crab_> we can always add extra structure later (just make sure that we've got some reserved characters not allowed in persist_id )
20100406 01:41:08< Crab_> and since persist_id is just a string, it is quite easy for the scenario to set , say , wml variable 'persist_id_of_current_scenario' to that value 
20100406 01:41:25< Crab_> and then a event from era would be able to read that variable, and use it in save_global_variable
20100406 01:42:03< Crab_> so, I think that 'current scenario'  \ 'current era' aliases are not even necessary.
20100406 01:42:17< Crab_> for they can be coded using WML
20100406 01:42:40< Upthorn> Okay.
20100406 01:42:52< Crab_> and, by using a macro, wml editor will still be able to change that persist_id in one place, if it's needed to change it.
20100406 01:43:25< Upthorn> there was one comment you had which I didn't quite understand.
20100406 01:43:28< Upthorn>  <Crab_> Upthorn: 'TODO: Determine if persist_id must be provided per-scenario, or per-addon.' - I think that it would be really good if there'll be no need to provide persistence ids upfront, e.g., each addon/scenario would be able to use as many as it wants. some way of suggesting particular names might be a good thing, and this suggesting might be addon-based (since addon server deals with 'addons', not scenarios)
20100406 01:43:28< Crab_> we can always add those aliases later, if they prove convenient (like there's some automatic wml variables like $side_number today)
20100406 01:44:04< Crab_> Upthorn: I think that it's not really required for scenarios/campaigns/etc to specify their persistence ids in their 'global configuration'
20100406 01:44:29< Crab_> Upthorn: they should only specify them in [save_global_variable], [load_global_variable], [clear_global_variable]
20100406 01:44:44< Upthorn> Hmm.
20100406 01:45:12< Upthorn> I have a question about that, then.
20100406 01:45:16< Crab_> Upthorn: you can add this as an 'optional' thing to the plan.
20100406 01:45:28< Crab_> Upthorn: but it's not really 'required' for the system to work.
20100406 01:45:36< Upthorn> Should one add-on be allowed to save to another add-on's persistence data?
20100406 01:46:11< Crab_> Upthorn: I think 'yes'. maybe, later, we'll want to code access control lists for addon persistence data, but this is too, optional thing.
20100406 01:46:34< Upthorn> I had been assuming 'no'.
20100406 01:46:52< Crab_> Upthorn: we don't have even strict 'global add-don identifiers' today, so it's too early to do such restrictions
20100406 01:47:30< pokhbocee> Crab_: Is there an office or a bureau of wesnoth? 
20100406 01:47:40< Crab_> pokhbocee: afair, no.
20100406 01:47:59< Crab_> pokhbocee: unless you treat forum.wesnoth.org as an office
20100406 01:48:10< Upthorn> but in the case of 'no' or 'access control' I think we will need persist_id identifiers in an add-on's global configuration.
20100406 01:48:37< Crab_> Upthorn: why ? we can always specify persist_id in each save/load/clear operation 
20100406 01:49:16< pokhbocee> Crab_: no :D eheh
20100406 01:49:25< Upthorn> well how can access be controled if there is nothing to identify the accessors?
20100406 01:49:56< Crab_> Upthorn:disregard my previous comment, I've slightly misread.
20100406 01:50:01< Upthorn> okay.
20100406 01:50:35< Crab_> Upthorn: yes, that is what I've tried to say - we don't have reliable identification atm, and we don't have infrastructure for such identification , so it's too early to do access control
20100406 01:50:58< Crab_> Upthorn: e.g., we would need to  1) trace from forum.wesnoth.org account to addon
20100406 01:50:58-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: GSoC: proposals are to be submitted to Google before 9th April 19:00 UTC. Also, when your wiki page is ready, ask us to review it. | 82 bugs, 260 feature requests, 14 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
20100406 01:51:40< Crab_> 2) trace from addon to unique persistence identifier and access control rules
20100406 01:51:52< Upthorn> I think step 1 is overkill.
20100406 01:52:18< Crab_> Upthorn: well, we need auth, and reusing the same auth which is used for forum and mp seems reasonable.
20100406 01:52:34< Crab_> Upthorn: since what's the point of access control if it's not backed up by user database ?
20100406 01:53:00< Upthorn> I think we can do it with just "trace from addon to unique persistence identifier and access control" is sufficient security, because that way, if an unauthorized addon wants to access the persistence data
20100406 01:53:10< Upthorn> it also has to pretend to be that addon in all other respects
20100406 01:53:40< Upthorn> and the two can't be used at the same time
20100406 01:54:42< Upthorn> because they have to be the same type of addon, and you can't have two campaigns contributing to the same wml... can you?
20100406 01:54:53< Crab_> Upthorn: well, you can get addons not only from addon server...
20100406 01:55:15< Crab_> Upthorn: you can also get a scenario from a host in MP game
20100406 01:56:03< Upthorn> Hrm.
20100406 01:56:12< Crab_> Upthorn: and if scenario has the same persist_id as your local campaign...
20100406 01:56:35< Crab_> Upthorn: so, I think that backup/restore capabilities are more important that access control.
20100406 01:56:47< Upthorn> yeah.
20100406 01:56:59< Crab_> since even a 'correct' scenario creator can mess up with vars in his campaign, due to a coding error
20100406 01:57:23< Upthorn> You're right.
20100406 01:57:34< Crab_> and making it's easy to create a archive with all your achievements and to restore it (maybe, even on another machine) will help more
20100406 01:57:48< Upthorn> I guess there is no need to provide a global persist_id
20100406 01:58:06< Upthorn> but I think we should allow it, if only to save keystrokes
20100406 01:58:14< Crab_> Upthorn: yes, for that very reason
20100406 01:59:15< fakedrake> Crab_: i will be gone in canada(live in greece) for a week from tomorrow, when are you guys selecting the gsoc students just so i know by when i must have a final version of my wiki?
20100406 01:59:15< nagbot> Time for a small public service announcement
20100406 01:59:16< nagbot> To all gsoc students:
20100406 01:59:17< nagbot> Please do not forget to submit your application to Google!
20100406 01:59:18< nagbot> http://socghop.appspot.com/gsoc/student/apply/google/gsoc2010
20100406 01:59:19< nagbot> The deadline is coming - application period closes at Apr 9th, 19:00 UTC (12:00 PST)
20100406 01:59:20< nagbot> Everyone not enlisted in the google tracker at that time will have *no* chance to participate with Wesnoth as part of summer of code 2010, no matter how great your patches are or *whatever*
20100406 01:59:21< nagbot> Please do this now
20100406 01:59:22< nagbot> Please submit patches and prototypes so we can see your ideas in action. 
20100406 01:59:23< nagbot> Discuss your ideas here - get important feedback from developers
20100406 02:01:09< Crab_> fakedrake: as you see, google application is to be filled till 9th, and  I think that in another 7-9 days everything will be settled.
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20100406 02:02:07< fakedrake> hmm ok
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20100406 02:03:21< icelus> any coders lurking? I had a couple of quick questions
20100406 02:03:38< Crab_> icelus: ask 
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20100406 02:04:01< icelus> for fr #4539: adding [if] to the scenario tag
20100406 02:04:08< fakedrake> btw i made a patch allowing the preproc to read #ifdef {filenameOrDirectoryname}
20100406 02:04:24< icelus> am i missing something because that seems to be a poor fit for EasyCoding (the wiki page)
20100406 02:04:26< Crab_> fakedrake: cool. submit it to patches.wesnoth.org, assign to silene
20100406 02:04:27< icelus> i.e. it seems hard
20100406 02:04:32< fakedrake> ok
20100406 02:04:56< icelus> i mean the best idea i had in the time i spent thinking about it
20100406 02:05:27< icelus> was to have a block evaluated at the time of the #prestart event
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20100406 02:05:29< icelus> probably before
20100406 02:05:54< icelus> so it would look for conditional tags under the scenario and resolve them all then, unless they're under events
20100406 02:06:14< icelus> i mean i think it's probably misclassified but I don't know enough about wesnoth's use of wml to be sure
20100406 02:06:32< Crab_> I'll take a look
20100406 02:07:11< icelus> not to say i couldn't do it etc; but no point creating a difficult solution if a simpler one should exist
20100406 02:07:28< icelus> second question was about the help stuff: http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11076
20100406 02:07:33< icelus> i.e. reorganisable unit help
20100406 02:07:44< icelus> that was the other idea i looked at how hard it would be to implement
20100406 02:08:03< icelus> essentially since that was written race organisation has been added to the unit help
20100406 02:08:09< icelus> i.e. its grouped by unit
20100406 02:08:24< icelus> is that request still live
20100406 02:08:28< icelus> and if so, how do people imagine it working
20100406 02:08:36< icelus> i thought about this for a while but there's no easy answer
20100406 02:08:45< icelus> you could take it out of the standard help and have a unit viewer
20100406 02:08:48< icelus> which was more configurable
20100406 02:08:56< icelus> you could add a preference setting for how units are grouped
20100406 02:09:07< icelus> you could all the unit topics multiple times with different group headings
20100406 02:09:14< icelus> so the units tab would be by level, say
20100406 02:09:19< icelus> the race tab would have race units under it
20100406 02:09:25< icelus> the faction tab would have faction units under it
20100406 02:09:26< icelus> and so forth
20100406 02:09:33< icelus> in terms of advancement trees
20100406 02:09:42< icelus> its hard to know how to surface that properly
20100406 02:09:50< icelus> the difficulty is you support 800x600 res
20100406 02:09:51< Crab_> icelus: about question #2: right now, there's a gradual transition to a new gui, "gui2", which was coded by mordante. in gui2, it's easier to create various dialogs. you should talk with him about this FR, to see if it should/can be coded using current gui2 capabilties.
20100406 02:10:07< icelus> oh ok
20100406 02:10:23< Crab_> icelus: mordante is from europe; he reads the logs, you can leave messages from him.
20100406 02:10:30< icelus> maybe the good ideas wiki page should have a note about that underneath this
20100406 02:10:38< icelus> well i was just looking at low hanging fruit really
20100406 02:10:51< icelus> i will come back to it when its clearer
20100406 02:10:54< Crab_> icelus: you're welcome to add it. but this is not a 'low hanging fruit'.
20100406 02:11:04< icelus> well it could've been =)
20100406 02:11:05< Crab_> it's not hard, but not easy, I'd say.
20100406 02:11:12< icelus> yeah but its doable in an evening i think
20100406 02:11:22< icelus> any of those options i outlined i could've done in the current gui system i think
20100406 02:11:24< icelus> this evening
20100406 02:11:32< icelus> but i was unclear which if any to pick
20100406 02:11:37< icelus> so i didn't 
20100406 02:11:59< icelus> and it seems like it was just as well if there's a transition underway
20100406 02:12:57< icelus> Crab_, are there specific things you think are worth looking at
20100406 02:13:14< icelus> i'm done for today but i ran out of obvious things to take from the wiki
20100406 02:13:37< Crab_> about question #1, I think that it's a FR which shouldn't be done, since in 2009 the objectives were made accessible from lua, and it's easy to do conditional modification from lua
20100406 02:13:52< icelus> ok cool thanks
20100406 02:14:43< Crab_> I think that the 'new bugs' contain some low-hanging fruit, since 1.8 was just out, and there ought be some simple bugs.
20100406 02:15:16< icelus> where do i see that list, sorry?
20100406 02:15:39< Crab_> https://gna.org/bugs/?func=browse&set=open&group=wesnoth
20100406 02:16:17< icelus> oh ok you just mean the new ones in that list
20100406 02:16:24< icelus> cool ok i will browse tomorrow
20100406 02:16:45< Crab_> icelus: fix https://gna.org/bugs/?15781 today :)
20100406 02:17:26< Crab_> icelus: someone can fix it tomorrow before you :) it's easy to reproduce (start a new local game on sulla's ruins), and should be *very* easy to fix.
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20100406 02:17:53< Crab_> icelus: I confirm it as of r42008
20100406 02:17:56< icelus> oh i'm not really aiming just to get on the scoreboard so to speak =)
20100406 02:18:10< icelus> i already have two patches in the tracker which may or may not come to anything
20100406 02:18:15< icelus> but i'm not really looking for credit
20100406 02:18:19< icelus> it's just fun to play for a bit
20100406 02:18:23< icelus> and check out the codebase
20100406 02:18:43< icelus> i've never really looked at wesnoth before
20100406 02:18:59< Crab_> icelus: well, its not fun to chase the 'too hard' bugs. but it's fun if you manage to find out the reason.
20100406 02:19:21< icelus> yeah for sure
20100406 02:19:21< Crab_> icelus: there are known bugs which are not fixed because noone knows 'how?'
20100406 02:19:35< icelus> i usually have pretty good luck with those
20100406 02:19:43< icelus> providing its reproducible =p
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20100406 02:19:53< Crab_> icelus: perfectly reproducible :)
20100406 02:19:57< icelus> give me a pointer it'll be a distraction from work tomorrow
20100406 02:20:02< icelus> suggestions for a bug #?
20100406 02:20:24< endercoaster> Hello. Sorry I've been missing for a bit, got back to school after spring break.
20100406 02:20:38< Crab_> icelus: you want one of the 'noone knows how to fix' bugs ? 
20100406 02:20:48< Crab_> hi, endercoaster
20100406 02:20:54< icelus> Crab_, sure just so long as its reproducible on linux
20100406 02:21:10< Crab_> icelus: https://gna.org/bugs/?15560
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20100406 02:22:01< Crab_> icelus: to reproduce, you can take old version of dark forecast (before zookeeper has hidden the bug)
20100406 02:22:16< endercoaster> If there's anybody that doesn't mind looking at my GSoC proposal, I just did a MAJOR revision.
20100406 02:22:37< fakedrake> how do i assign the patch to someone?
20100406 02:22:43< icelus> Crab_, ok i'll take a look, thanks
20100406 02:22:52< Crab_> icelus: play with two players via a network (launch two wesnothes), set the ai starting gold in there to high value, and the bug will appear on turn 2
20100406 02:23:10< Crab_> icelus: or, code a sample scenario or ask me for one. in general, the cause of the bug is written in the description.
20100406 02:23:26< Crab_> icelus: ADVANCE_UNIT is not synced across the network properly
20100406 02:23:29< icelus> i'll have a look at it tomorrow as a bit of fun
20100406 02:23:38< Crab_> when the unit advances as the result of wml levent
20100406 02:23:43< Crab_> fakedrake: patch # ?
20100406 02:23:52< Crab_> endercoaster: I'll take a look
20100406 02:24:09< endercoaster> http://wiki.wesnoth.org/GSoC:_Endercoaster
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20100406 02:27:42< fakedrake> 1590
20100406 02:27:45< fakedrake> https://gna.org/patch/index.php?1590
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20100406 02:28:41< fakedrake> i also havent tested it that much so mind that...
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20100406 02:30:50< Crab_> fakedrake: I've just assigned it to silene, he'll take a look
20100406 02:31:39< fakedrake> ok thanx
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20100406 02:32:10< icelus> Crab_, when you say use an old version of the map, is there a particular one you have in mind
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20100406 02:32:24< fakedrake> i also wanted to ask you about the line merging part of my proposal
20100406 02:32:28< fakedrake> Crab_
20100406 02:32:30< icelus> the most recent revision of the map in svn is 2009... and the bug report is 2010
20100406 02:32:37< icelus> so it should be ok right?
20100406 02:32:43< Crab_> icelus: I meant 'scenario', sorry
20100406 02:32:53< fakedrake> i didt quite understand what the problem was
20100406 02:33:07< icelus> Crab_, ok cool thanks my mistake
20100406 02:33:34< Crab_> wesbot: log 41586
20100406 02:33:36< wesbot> zookeeper * r41586 : Likely fix for the Dark Forecast OOS.
20100406 02:33:36< wesbot> URL: http://svn.gna.org/viewcvs/wesnoth?view=rev&rev=41586
20100406 02:33:41< Crab_> icelus: try the one before that.
20100406 02:33:57< Crab_> e.g., 41585 will contain a bug.
20100406 02:34:04< icelus> nod r41446, ok will do
20100406 02:34:26< Crab_> fix the AI starting gold to be very high to trigger the bug earlier
20100406 02:34:33< Crab_> the bug happens when the ai starts to upgrade units
20100406 02:34:46< Crab_> one of the MP players will see the units wrongly
20100406 02:35:07< Crab_> see the bug for more info
20100406 02:35:12< icelus> nod i read it
20100406 02:35:24< icelus> will check it out tomorrow i'm just making sure there's no silly impediment
20100406 02:35:33< icelus> stopping me looking at it then
20100406 02:35:40< icelus> when perhaps you won't be around to answer questions =)
20100406 02:36:19< Crab_> endercoaster: ok, I've read your wiki page.
20100406 02:36:58< endercoaster> Crab_: Thanks
20100406 02:38:06< Crab_> endercoaster: about the ai work: the basic things should be fairly easy to do (just 'expose' the info to the ai, to make sure that it can use it).
20100406 02:39:01< Crab_> endercoaster: I suggest you to make some interface mockups for the dialogs to set those permissions you've described
20100406 02:40:00< Crab_> endercoaster: note that WML can be used to define abilities, so, they need a way to define 'whom they affect' via WML. e.g., an ability can state that it only affects enemies, etc.
20100406 02:40:38< Crab_> endercoaster: also, some way of filtering sides is needed, to allow to answer questions like 'give me the list of all sides which ShareTeamLabels with me'
20100406 02:40:58< Crab_> look how standard unit filter and standard location filter work.
20100406 02:40:58-!- DesertPanther [~Khalid@unaffiliated/desertpanther] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20100406 02:41:14< Crab_> btw, team labels are labels on map which are only visible to a certain team
20100406 02:42:04< endercoaster> Crab_: Alright, thanks. I think I've at least gotten past major reworking into "tweaking" territory. What tool(s) would you recommend using for the dialog mock-ups?
20100406 02:43:02< Crab_> endercoaster: I'd say 'take some screenshots of wesnoth current screens which resemble yours, and shuffle them around in any graphics editor like gimp, photoshop, paint, etc)
20100406 02:43:19< Crab_> endercoaster: this way you'll have wesnoth look&feel
20100406 02:43:57< Crab_> also, think of how those permissions will be displayed on main screen
20100406 02:44:18< Crab_> e.g., if you see a unit on screen, how it'll be possible to quickly check what it can do, diplomacy-wise, to you
20100406 02:44:51< Crab_> endercoaster: also, you can start thinking about timeline for your project
20100406 02:45:11< Crab_> and don't forget to submit your gsoc proposal to google.
20100406 02:46:39< endercoaster> Crab_: Are decisions made based on the version submitted via Google, or the most recent version on the wiki? That is, should I submit what I have now via Google to make sure it doesn't slip my mind and then keep tweaking and refining my proposal on the wiki?
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20100406 02:47:04< Crab_>  most recent version on the wiki
20100406 02:47:20< Crab_> and irc activity matters, too
20100406 02:47:34< Crab_> you should make sure that developers review your proposal and are familiar with it
20100406 02:47:58< Greywhind> i wish i didn't have 8 things on my to-do list in the next few days
20100406 02:48:14 * endercoaster hopes his proposal is solid overall even if there are some things that still need some work
20100406 02:48:14< Crab_> Greywhind: happens sometimes
20100406 02:48:16< Greywhind> it makes it virtually impossible to make my proposal decent
20100406 02:48:19< Greywhind> :-/
20100406 02:48:35< Greywhind> i'm going to try to get the most urgent stuff done by the end of tomorrow
20100406 02:48:41< Crab_> nagbot: Greywhind ?
20100406 02:48:41< nagbot> greywhind : http://wiki.wesnoth.org//SummerOfCodeGreywhind
20100406 02:48:50< Greywhind> so that i can make sure i have a couple days to fix things up
20100406 02:49:40< Crab_> Greywhind: well, try to devote some time, even a few hours, to update your page before 9th, and then, you'll have around a week to catch up
20100406 02:49:42< endercoaster> But yeah, I'll be on the IRC as much as possible, but if I have school work to do, I'm going to leave so that I don't get distracted.
20100406 02:49:58< Greywhind> Crab_: yeah, i'm definitely going to make a better proposal before the 9th
20100406 02:50:18< Crab_> endercoaster: to make your proposal more solid, you should ensure that it is reviewed by all interested developers.
20100406 02:50:25< Greywhind> i'll even try to get a patch created by then
20100406 02:50:32< Crab_> Greywhind: cool
20100406 02:50:48< Greywhind> it's just crazy with taxes and schoolwork though.
20100406 02:51:05< Greywhind> anyway, enough complaining :P - i have to go for now.
20100406 02:51:09< endercoaster> Crab_: Well of course.
20100406 02:51:13< Crab_> Greywhind: good luck
20100406 02:51:17< Greywhind> tahnks
20100406 02:51:18< Crab_> endercoaster: ok
20100406 02:51:20< Greywhind> *thanks
20100406 02:52:18< endercoaster> Crab_: The hoping was with regards to what I've written, I know I've still got to "market" it :-)
20100406 02:53:51< Crab_> fakedrake: the problem with line merging is that there are multi-lines marked by << >> , which are not well-suited for such merging. but you're welcome to discuss it with other developers and UMC creators, maybe they'll like this additional restriction because of the benefits it'll bring.
20100406 02:54:36< Crab_> endercoaster: well, the foundation is done, but you need to expand and fill out those questions and todos.
20100406 02:54:56< Crab_> endercoaster: and dont forget a timeline, which must include a separate deliverable after the first half of GSoC.
20100406 02:55:09 * Crab_ says bye and disappears, as it's 3:55 AM here
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20100406 02:55:51< endercoaster> Yeah. May have overestimated the difficulty of writing AI.
20100406 02:56:02< fakedrake> Crab_: who should i talk to?
20100406 02:56:09< fakedrake> damn
20100406 03:03:00< CIA-64> ai0867 * r42021 /trunk/ (14 files in 5 dirs): 
20100406 03:03:00< CIA-64> Add ~DARKEN() counterpart to ~BRIGHTEN(),
20100406 03:03:01< CIA-64> tod-dark.png counterpart to tod-bright.png and
20100406 03:03:01< CIA-64> darkens-aura.png counterpart to brightens-aura.png.
20100406 03:03:01< CIA-64> Implement min_value for [illuminates]
20100406 03:12:43< Upthorn> hrm. I recall discussing the world persistence project with somebody besides crab at some point in the past
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20100406 03:21:51< pokhbocee> Crab_: lua_pushinteger makes the last return type an int. so i cannot assign the return value to a list.
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20100406 03:41:41< Upthorn> I thought lua lists could have more than one value type.
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20100406 03:44:27< aranair> anyone knows how does the system currently represent neutral alliance status?
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20100406 03:49:27< AI0867> aranair: it doesn't
20100406 03:50:05< aranair> ah. so basically its ally list/enemy list and observer mm
20100406 03:50:07< AI0867> but if side 1 is one team 'one', side 2 is on team 'two' and side 3 is on both team 'one' and team 'two' (so, 'one,two'), then he's allied with both
20100406 03:50:32< aranair> ah. 
20100406 03:50:53< AI0867> see LoW:02
20100406 03:51:03< AI0867> or the test scenario
20100406 03:51:36< aranair> ok thank you 
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20100406 04:12:33< chains> how do I uninstall wesnoth built from SVN with scons? (I attempted to compile wesnoth from source following the directions on the compile page, but made a wrong turn and ended up with 1.9) 
20100406 04:16:06< neoxro> haha i ended up with 1.9 too
20100406 04:16:57< neoxro> but i guess if you are on ubuntu, you can just delete the directory and download the right one
20100406 04:17:27< chains> It's tough to say at this point wesnoth is all over my machine =p 
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20100406 04:19:15< chains> 4500 directories on my machine with the word wesnoth in the name :P 
20100406 04:20:19< chains> er files in directories named
20100406 04:21:15< ancestral> Scary
20100406 04:21:30< chains> got it down to 3000 by taking out the newest install of wesnoth :) 
20100406 04:21:49< chains> I've had like 7 versions of wesnoth on this machine =p
20100406 04:21:55< chains> at some point I spose I should reformat. 
20100406 04:22:18< ancestral> Your hard drive?
20100406 04:23:25 * chains nods
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20100406 05:45:14< wdwun> hello :D
20100406 05:45:49< wdwun> I'd just like to pop a question, if I want to be working on a patch, should I checkout the branch or the trunk?
20100406 05:46:18< pokhbocee> trunk
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20100406 05:47:16< wdwun> sweet, thanks, er, he left
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20100406 06:31:42< ancestral> What does [advanced_preference] refer to?
20100406 06:34:20< wdwun> perhaps the "advanced preference" configuration in the game?
20100406 06:38:24< ancestral> Yeah, I think you're right
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20100406 07:32:12< nagbot> Hi!
20100406 07:32:13< nagbot> Everyone who wants to participate in GSoC with Wesnoth:
20100406 07:32:14< nagbot> Make sure you commit your proposal at google soon, don't wait until the latest moment just to discover your internet connection is down
20100406 07:32:15< nagbot> http://socghop.appspot.com/gsoc/student/apply/google/gsoc2010
20100406 07:32:16< nagbot> The deadline for the application is friday, april 9th, at 19:00 UTC (12:00 PST)
20100406 07:32:17< nagbot> Everyone not enlisted in the google tracker at that time will have *no* chance to participate with Wesnoth as part of summer of code 2010, no matter how great your patches are or *whatever*
20100406 07:32:18< nagbot> We can select ONLY people listed there!
20100406 07:32:19< nagbot> Submit patches and prototypes for review, so we'll see how you work.
20100406 07:32:20< nagbot> Discuss your ideas here - get important feedback from developers
20100406 07:50:58-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: GSoC: proposals are to be submitted to Google before 9th April 19:00 UTC. Also, when your wiki page is ready, ask us to review it. | 83 bugs, 260 feature requests, 15 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
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20100406 09:51:34< Crab_> hi, orfest
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20100406 10:25:36< DDR> Hello. Is there any wml function that could output text to a file? Alternatively, would there be any issue if one got put in? (I mean, besides the fact probably no one wants to.)
20100406 10:25:38< timotei21> hey Crab_ 
20100406 10:25:53< timotei21> I wanted to tell you that MSVC at last compile wesnoth:D
20100406 10:25:55< timotei21> and it works
20100406 10:26:03< timotei21> thank you again
20100406 10:26:08< ancestral> What DDR said
20100406 10:26:10< ancestral> :)
20100406 10:27:08< DDR> What I'd like to do is have a persistent code-generated macro I can call. 
20100406 10:27:19-!- timotei21 is now known as timotei21_away
20100406 10:27:32< DDR> * What I'd like to do is be able to save to file a persistent code-generated macro I can call. 
20100406 10:27:57< DDR> Generate WML from inside WML.
20100406 10:29:35< Crab_> timotei21_away: good, as you've seen yesterday, the fix was a 1-line change :)
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20100406 10:35:42< zookeeper> DDR, umm, no
20100406 10:36:21< DDR> Ummm, why not? I'm hoping to make a unit macro - so, if you have a named hero in a campaign, he might make an appearance in a later campaign.
20100406 10:37:03< DDR> It would also let me change campaigns based on if you played it before, though I don't think that would be a big part.
20100406 10:38:09< DDR> It'd be so awesome! :D
20100406 10:38:12< DDR> If used right.
20100406 10:38:43< Crab_> DDR: 'forward linking' campaigns is easy ATM - just store a unit in the first campaign, set the 'next scenario' of end scenario of the first campaign to point to first scenario of the 2nd, and all will work.
20100406 10:38:44< ancestral> Some sort of way to save information, even variables, to a file, would be fab
20100406 10:39:03< Crab_> DDR: making 'Some sort of way to save information, even variables, to a file' is a potential gsoc project, which might be done this year
20100406 10:39:09< ancestral> But taking info from one scenario to another is not possible
20100406 10:40:07< DDR> We were hoping to have a 'hero' game, where you play a persistent hero through a series of mp campaigns.
20100406 10:40:07< Crab_> nagbot: upthorn schumi iskander ?
20100406 10:40:08< nagbot> iskander : http://wiki.wesnoth.org//SummerOfCodeProposal_Alexander_Vishnevskyi
20100406 10:40:09< nagbot> schumi : http://wiki.wesnoth.org//SummerOfCodeProposal_GuilhermeSouza
20100406 10:40:10< nagbot> upthorn : http://wiki.wesnoth.org//SummerOfCodeProposal_JodyNorthup
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20100406 10:40:45< Crab_> DDR: it should be possible in half a year, faster if one of the above or similar projects is accepted into GSoC.
20100406 10:40:48< DDR> Yay! I'm looking foward to next fall.
20100406 10:40:57< ancestral> Yeah I'd heard about that briefly
20100406 10:41:28< ancestral> DDR: Too bad the community doesn't get to vote in the GSoC's ;-)
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20100406 10:41:38< DDR> Hehe, yeah.
20100406 10:41:48< Crab_> ancestral: well, you can make a forum post with a poll, isn't it ?
20100406 10:42:23< ancestral> That's true, you guys might read it too
20100406 10:42:25< Upthorn> ancestral: well I'd guess that things the community really wants are most likely to get accepted if there is a suitable student for them
20100406 10:42:30< ancestral> We can hurt and heal the winner :-P
20100406 10:42:52< Crab_> ancestral: :))
20100406 10:43:02< ancestral> Upthorn: Sometimes the best projects aren't the ones that are the most grandiose
20100406 10:43:10< ancestral> A big part of it is getting things done
20100406 10:43:16< ancestral> And sometimes things "under the hood"
20100406 10:43:41< zookeeper> DDR, nothing prevents you from doing that using the method crab described
20100406 10:44:21< Crab_> so, if you want to make a forum poll or h&h about projects, prepare draft description (based on wiki pages), show it to us to see if there are any bugs to correct, and go for it :)
20100406 10:44:24< DDR> Miiight work, but we'd need a way to chain from game to game in an arbitrary order, with an arbitrary number of players.
20100406 10:44:40< Crab_> DDR: yes, this is planned.
20100406 10:44:42< zookeeper> have a lobby scenario from which you choose the next campaign
20100406 10:44:43< ancestral> DDR: Trouble changing players in the game
20100406 10:45:20< DDR> Not sure how new connections would be handled. :/
20100406 10:45:27< Crab_> zookeeper: 'lobby  scenario from which you choose the next campaign' is the first step, but, in the end, we want to choose scenarios directly from MP lobby, without even having to start the game.
20100406 10:45:40< DDR> Though that would work /beautifully/ for single player.
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20100406 10:46:19< zookeeper> Crab_, but you still have to start the game before you can choose which stored character (or whatever) you want to use, or if you want to create a new one.
20100406 10:46:26< zookeeper> so it's not that much of a difference
20100406 10:46:33< Crab_> zookeeper: no, we won't have to start the game for that :)
20100406 10:47:11< zookeeper> want to put some widgets in the game creation screen for choosing that kind of things?
20100406 10:47:31< zookeeper> that's the only alternative AFAICT
20100406 10:47:51< Crab_> zookeeper: yes (but not on current game creation screen, but on a new type of game creation screen)
20100406 10:47:52< DDR> bbl
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20100406 10:48:25< zookeeper> right
20100406 10:48:29< Crab_> zookeeper:  I was thinking about a 'multiplayer campaign lobby' screen, a room in mp lobby with extra widgets.
20100406 10:49:08< Crab_> zookeeper: where you can see the 'status' of current mp campaign, things as 'global map', chat, request games to be created, etc.
20100406 10:50:16< Crab_> zookeeper: the speed of  full-scale implementation is dependent on two gsoc projects - most important is "network stack rewrite" and the second is "gameworld persistence"
20100406 10:50:27< zookeeper> i see. i don't really have anything to say about that though
20100406 10:51:34< Crab_> zookeeper: ok. btw, what do you think about this syntax for accessing 'persistent variables' ? http://wesnoth.pastebin.com/D98cieKy
20100406 10:52:09< Crab_> zookeeper: basically, wml tags to fetch 'global' wml variable into a normal wml variable, and store it back.
20100406 10:53:02< zookeeper> what do side= and persist_id= do?
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20100406 10:53:39< zookeeper> side=1 means load the stored global var from the side 1 client's machine?
20100406 10:53:47< Crab_> zookeeper: yes
20100406 10:54:36< Crab_> and 'persist_id' is a namespace, to allow different addons to use the same variable names while referring to differrent variables, while still allowing them to access variables from different namespace, if desired. it will default to 'persist_id' specified at higher level (such as at campaign/addon level)
20100406 10:55:25< zookeeper> ok...wouldn't 'namespace' be a better name for it then? :P
20100406 10:55:40< Crab_> zookeeper: yes, you're right.
20100406 10:55:55< Crab_> zookeeper: the syntax is a WIP we've discussing with potential students.
20100406 10:56:13< Crab_> zookeeper: so, I'll ask them what they think about renaming persist_id to 'namespace'
20100406 10:56:24< zookeeper> well, looks ok to me otherwise. except save_ should be set_ ;)
20100406 10:56:40< Crab_> ok. maybe then load_ should be get_ ?
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20100406 10:57:13< Crab_> i.e. http://wesnoth.pastebin.com/BaQecyXU
20100406 10:57:25< zookeeper> or store_
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20100406 10:57:50< Crab_> http://wesnoth.pastebin.com/LArWB12H
20100406 10:57:56< Crab_> what do you like more ?
20100406 10:58:19< Crab_> (load/store look better to me)
20100406 10:58:44< zookeeper> i meant store_ in place of load_ :P but i guess that'd sound confusing
20100406 10:58:51< zookeeper> get or load is fine
20100406 10:59:02< Crab_> :P
20100406 10:59:15< zookeeper> but the other one should be set_global_variable because we have set_variable
20100406 10:59:25< Crab_> then, get/set is better, because there'll be no confusion :)
20100406 10:59:34< zookeeper> yep
20100406 11:00:03< zookeeper> also i think there ought to be a [global_variable] tag for use in an [if] (similarly to how [variable] works there)
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20100406 11:01:12< Upthorn> zookeeper: well the original idea I had was that persist_id would be a unique id for each add-on
20100406 11:02:29< Crab_> Upthorn: yes. but with the current vision, imo, 'namespace' is indeed better. but there might be other opinions, yes.
20100406 11:03:09< zookeeper> "persist_id" doesn't really intuitively say anything to be. it's pretty clear what a "namespace" is.
20100406 11:03:13< zookeeper> s/be/me
20100406 11:03:34< zookeeper> i don't know if there's an important distinction between those though
20100406 11:03:59< Upthorn> well, I think ideally, we would actually want something with fewer keystrokes than either of those.
20100406 11:04:41< zookeeper> why? that would be used very rarely after all
20100406 11:05:13< Crab_> Upthorn: also note that it'll be possible to omit it if the current 'default one' is used
20100406 11:05:55< zookeeper> at least i'd imagine one would typically store the variables into a single global container variable instead of a dozen individual global scalar variables, so you'd just need to set/get that container
20100406 11:06:00< Upthorn> yeah, with my global default suggestion, it probably will be pretty rare to actually use it
20100406 11:06:21< Upthorn> but there is nothing preventing a campaign or scenario writer from making extensive use of persistent variables
20100406 11:06:35< zookeeper> actually it might be a good idea to force all the add-ons variables to be inside one container
20100406 11:07:11< Upthorn> like DND's idea of a hero meta-campaign, where each player controls a single character through an arbitrary sequence of single and/or multiplayer campaigns
20100406 11:07:17< Upthorn> err DDR's
20100406 11:08:07< Crab_> zookeeper: well, why ? note that in MP, we'll have to transmit the get_ result over the net.
20100406 11:08:42< zookeeper> true, i guess it could be rather inconvenient if the containers were huge (which they would be if they contained something like a recall list)
20100406 11:08:55< Crab_> zookeeper: so, if, say a SP campaign has 1mb of data in variables, and the MP scenario only wants a single 100-char string value, it's not a good idea to transmit the entire 1mb, if we can only get a 100-char string.
20100406 11:10:10< Upthorn> I don't think there's any reason for authors to treat persistent variables much differently than any other wml variable
20100406 11:10:26< Upthorn> since the only difference under-the-hood is where it gets saved
20100406 11:10:27< Crab_> Upthorn: there is a reason
20100406 11:10:57< Crab_> Upthorn: we need to 'network sync' the global variable after get_
20100406 11:10:58< Upthorn> ... and having to transmit them over the net in MP
20100406 11:11:15< Crab_> Upthorn: having to transmit is a small thing, having to sync on transmit is another.
20100406 11:11:42< Upthorn> Yeah.
20100406 11:11:57< Crab_> Upthorn: e.g., if we do a "get_global_variable, use it", we must actually wait on all clients till we receive the right value to use, otherwise we'll have OOS.
20100406 11:12:00< zookeeper> Upthorn, well, if you really wanted them to treat them the same, you'd integrate all that into the current [set_variable] and such instead of creating new tags for them ;) but i think it's a good idea to keep them clearly separate, so people won't mess with the global vars unnecessarily
20100406 11:12:24< Crab_> yes, I want to separate them cleanly.
20100406 11:12:41< zookeeper> that is, it sort of encourages one to get the global var into a local one first and then do a lot of comparisons and calculations and whatnot, instead of actually using the global var all the time and causing constant retransmits and syncs and so on.
20100406 11:12:51< Crab_> since it's fairly easy to convert between one and another, but it has certain implications as wrt sync.
20100406 11:13:33< Upthorn> I don't see how it would be possible to integrate them cleanly, since global_variables require additional info to figure out where to save
20100406 11:13:53< Crab_> and if we run into problems, we might even limit the usage of get_global_variable to synced events, without major loss of functionality
20100406 11:14:18< Ivanovic> moin
20100406 11:14:26< Upthorn> So even if I had been right about that, I would want a different tag
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20100406 11:15:53< Upthorn> also, about the pastebin link
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20100406 11:16:16< Upthorn> what is the syntax for clearing normal WML variables, if there is any?
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20100406 11:17:14< Upthorn> I had been thinking that we could use [set_global_variable] with no "from" to clear.
20100406 11:17:19< zookeeper> [clear_variable] name=varname [/clear_variable]
20100406 11:17:39< Upthorn> but if there is already [clear_variable] for normal vars, it is best to duplicate for globals
20100406 11:17:54< zookeeper> (also name= can be a comma-separated list)
20100406 11:19:45< zookeeper> going afk for a while... ->
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20100406 11:21:45 * Upthorn going to bed in ~10 minutes
20100406 11:22:23< Upthorn> Crab_: still here?
20100406 11:22:43< Upthorn> I was considering the issue of eras
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20100406 11:22:45< Crab_> Upthorn: yes
20100406 11:23:08< Upthorn> and I thought that we could have an "era=era_name" to go with the "side="
20100406 11:23:33< Upthorn> and when not provided, it will default to era=all.
20100406 11:24:06< Upthorn> Which will allow campaigns and scenarios to have special persistent features when used with particular eras.
20100406 11:24:16< Upthorn> Good idea or bad idea?
20100406 11:24:32< Crab_> Upthorn: IMO, 'bad idea'
20100406 11:24:52< Crab_> Upthorn: wml authors can still sort it out, we need to provide a basic engine which is easy to understand.
20100406 11:25:15< Upthorn> ok.
20100406 11:25:34< Crab_> so, I'd say 'keep it simple, let it work simple, and then let wml authors suggest improvements, if any'
20100406 11:27:01< Crab_> e.g., scenarios can already communicate with addons using local wml variables, so there's no need to code another communication channel up front.
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20100406 11:27:29< Upthorn> When I thought of it, I thought there was another reason why it was needed, but either I was wrong, or I don't remember what the other reason was.
20100406 11:29:21 * Upthorn saves changes on wiki and goes to bed.
20100406 11:30:53< Upthorn> nagbot: Upthorn
20100406 11:31:01< Upthorn> nagbot: Upthorn?
20100406 11:31:02< nagbot> upthorn : http://wiki.wesnoth.org//SummerOfCodeProposal_JodyNorthup
20100406 11:31:02< Crab_> nagbot: Upthorn ?
20100406 11:31:03< nagbot> upthorn : http://wiki.wesnoth.org//SummerOfCodeProposal_JodyNorthup
20100406 11:31:06< Crab_> :)
20100406 11:31:30< Upthorn> If you have any more comments, go ahead and leave them here, and I will read them when I wake up.
20100406 11:31:37< Crab_> ok
20100406 11:31:47< Upthorn> thanks. Good night.
20100406 11:32:07< Crab_> Upthorn: we've settled on get/set, not load/save
20100406 11:33:18< Crab_> Upthorn: "TODO: Write something here describing the planned internal structure of persistence data .cfg files. " -> 'just a collection of variables' will be ok for start, unless you want to plug in some DB later on.
20100406 11:34:18< Crab_> Upthorn: "TODO: Write something here describing planned solution for storage of era-related persistence data." -> store in the same way as scenario persistence data, e.g., 'use namespace to determine file'
20100406 11:35:34< Crab_> Upthorn: "TODO: Provide syntax for setting global variables with constant values (for first run, etc) (todo: look at how normal variables do this, copy that.)" - "set temporary local variable, store global variable from temporary local variable, clear temporary local variable" is a good enough solution for start. you can implement some syntax to save keystrokes, but reuse the implementation.
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20100406 12:32:12< nagbot> Time for a small public service announcement
20100406 12:32:13< nagbot> GSoC 2010 candidates:
20100406 12:32:14< nagbot> Fill out the application form at google
20100406 12:32:15< nagbot> http://socghop.appspot.com/gsoc/student/apply/google/gsoc2010
20100406 12:32:16< nagbot> The deadline for the application is friday, april 9th, at 19:00 UTC (12:00 PST)
20100406 12:32:17< nagbot> you can still improve afterwards, but how wonderful your proposal is, if not in google's database we can't accept it
20100406 12:32:18< nagbot> We can select ONLY people listed there!
20100406 12:32:19< nagbot> Please submit patches and prototypes so we can see your ideas in action. 
20100406 12:32:20< nagbot> Join the IRC discussions.
20100406 12:32:48-!- timotei is now known as timotei21_away
20100406 12:33:13< timotei21_away> loonycyborg, I have managed to compile the game in MSVC too :D
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20100406 12:40:36< loonycyborg> I know. I read http://irclogs.wesnoth.org
20100406 12:43:47< orfest> hi, Crab_
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20100406 13:09:33< cool_coder> hi 
20100406 13:10:08< cool_coder> i am a student applying for Wesnoth through GSoc
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20100406 13:25:32< Ivanovic> hi cool_coder
20100406 13:25:39< cool_coder> hi
20100406 13:25:41< Ivanovic> cool_coder: so do you already have an idea what you want to work on?
20100406 13:25:45< cool_coder> yes
20100406 13:26:21-!- DesertPanther [~Khalid@unaffiliated/desertpanther] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
20100406 13:26:24< cool_coder> im really interested in the new alliance system
20100406 13:27:00< Ivanovic> most important question for this project: have you already played wesnoth and an idea about the possible impact of this new system?
20100406 13:28:37< cool_coder> o have played wesnoth
20100406 13:28:40< cool_coder> i*
20100406 13:28:46< cool_coder> but am a new player
20100406 13:29:29< cool_coder> and i have a fair idea of how my idea will integrate into the existing system
20100406 13:31:27< cool_coder> I will take time and familiarize myself with wesnoth over the next few days
20100406 13:38:56< cool_coder> I would like to know if there is anything specific you expect out of a typical applicant
20100406 13:39:13< cool_coder> looks like I am applying for the most popular idea as of now:|
20100406 13:45:49-!- Crab_ [~Crab@wesnoth/developer/crab] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100406 13:46:01< orfest> hi, Crab_
20100406 13:46:36< Crab_> cool_coder: most important steps: create a wiki page about yourself, submit a patch or two, fixing some easy bugs, think out your proposal and show a detailed description, submit your proposal to google
20100406 13:47:34< cool_coder> ok cool :)
20100406 13:47:38< Crab_> orfest: hi, nice to see you again.
20100406 13:47:42< cool_coder> shall work on these liness
20100406 13:47:51< Crab_> orfest: 20100328 18:12:16< Crab_> then, I'll await the sketches of the design you're proposing for our network code (basically, a high-level overview of what you want to do). Later, we'll want to eventually get down to a more detailed timeline.
20100406 13:48:25< orfest> Crab_, what's the deadline to submit the sketches? :)
20100406 13:49:24< Crab_> orfest: around 12-13th, I'd say.
20100406 13:49:34< orfest> Crab_, that's great
20100406 13:49:59< orfest> Crab_, right now I'm nearly finished statistics uploader through proxy with no or basic authorization
20100406 13:50:37< Crab_> orfest: good. be sure to submit all your prototype code or links to it (if you store it, say, in external svn)
20100406 13:50:58-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: GSoC: proposals are to be submitted to Google before 9th April 19:00 UTC. Also, when your wiki page is ready, ask us to review it. | 82 bugs, 260 feature requests, 15 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
20100406 13:50:59< Crab_> orfest: we'll need to find out who is the best for this project, so everything will be taken into consideration
20100406 13:51:07< orfest> Crab_, ok 
20100406 13:51:09< Crab_> nagbot: billynux theodore orfest ?
20100406 13:51:10< nagbot> billynux : http://wiki.wesnoth.org//SummerOfCodeProposal_Billynux
20100406 13:51:11< nagbot> theodore : http://wiki.wesnoth.org//SummerOfCodeProposal_Theodore
20100406 13:51:12< nagbot> orfest : http://wiki.wesnoth.org//SummerofCode_Orfest
20100406 13:51:34< Crab_> orfest: as you see, there's a number of proposals in the wiki, about network stack rewrite.
20100406 13:53:20< orfest> Crab_, yes, I see, Billynux Answers part looks really similar )
20100406 13:55:00< orfest> Crab_, what do you think about developing client and server separately?
20100406 13:55:07< orfest> Crab_, currently they are reusing some code
20100406 13:55:46< orfest> Crab_, but if the client goes first to be developed, it will be not so easy to enable the code reuse again :)
20100406 13:55:47< Crab_> orfest: yes, and it has to be similar, I think, as the problem is the same. and I've mentioned your page to him, exactly as I mention his page to you.
20100406 13:56:31< Crab_> orfest: well, we don't need to rewrite the original server and the original client, we want to rewrite the network layer only
20100406 13:57:15< orfest> but I'd like to concentrate on the code used by client first and then to go to code used by server
20100406 13:57:38< Crab_> orfest: ok, good enough. and after the gsoc, a new type of client will be developed anyway.
20100406 13:58:08< Crab_> (the client which can connect to server multiple times)
20100406 13:59:04< Crab_> so, there'll be two types of clients - 'simple client' used by game, and 'multiclient' used by gm
20100406 13:59:32-!- Rigor [~Viktor@91.112.30.10] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100406 13:59:39< Rigor> hi all
20100406 14:00:00< orfest> Crab_, ok.
20100406 14:00:05< Crab_> hi, Rigor
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20100406 14:00:29< orfest> hi Rigor
20100406 14:00:45< Rigor> im looking for somebody who is responsible for the wesnoth lobby
20100406 14:00:50< Rigor> commands chat and such
20100406 14:01:28< Rigor> u know who this person might be :D
20100406 14:01:53< Crab_> don't know exactly, I'd guess Rhonda or Soliton might know better.
20100406 14:02:13< Rigor> rhonda...soliton...! :D
20100406 14:02:40< Rhonda> what what
20100406 14:02:50 * Rhonda nibbles on Crab_
20100406 14:03:02< Rigor> im looking for somebody who can add commands in the wesnoth lobby
20100406 14:03:05< Rigor> through chat
20100406 14:03:13< Rhonda> No clue. :)
20100406 14:03:14< Rigor> like /msg etc.
20100406 14:03:32< Rigor> heeheh
20100406 14:03:45< Rhonda> I might be interested if that is done in the irssi instance running on wesnoth.org, but I really have no idea.
20100406 14:03:47< shadowmaster> Rigor: you have a  feature request?
20100406 14:03:53< Rigor> yesssssssssss
20100406 14:04:09< Rigor> i dont know what the irssi instance is
20100406 14:04:18< shadowmaster> Rigor: you mean the game lobby, right?
20100406 14:04:21< Rigor> its a very very simple request :)
20100406 14:04:25< shadowmaster> e.g. with the game client
20100406 14:04:36< Rigor> well the box u type in
20100406 14:05:02< Rhonda> Ah, hmm
20100406 14:05:08< shadowmaster> you'd better file a bug to bugs.wesnoth.org and mark it as a Feature Request (priority 1 - Wish) in case Soliton is not available atm (most likely)
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20100406 14:05:27< Rhonda> shadowmaster: Is that done through triggers? It looks like, somehow. :)
20100406 14:05:37< Rigor> my request ?
20100406 14:05:41< Rigor> thx 
20100406 14:05:45< Rhonda> But I really shouldn't touch it before Soliton says it might be alright.
20100406 14:05:54< Rigor> and u know if he answers requests frequently ?
20100406 14:06:06< Rhonda> He might.
20100406 14:06:13< shadowmaster> Rigor: the good thing is that if Soliton can't, someone else might
20100406 14:06:14< Rhonda> If you are specific. :)
20100406 14:06:28< Rhonda> Rigor: What exactly do you want the lobby to do anyway?
20100406 14:06:41< Rigor> ok the thing is
20100406 14:06:50< Rigor> i want a random number 1 or 2
20100406 14:06:58< Rigor> through a command /dice
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20100406 14:07:34< Rigor> yes thats all. :D
20100406 14:07:35< shadowmaster> uh, well, odds are nobody will consider that important enough to implement it right away
20100406 14:07:47< Rigor> or quite the opposite
20100406 14:07:57< Rhonda> I don't think that the lobby would do that. Might rather sound like something spammy.
20100406 14:07:59< Rigor> its so simple that it can be made right away
20100406 14:08:12< Rhonda> But then, that's just me.
20100406 14:08:21< Rigor> as spammy as any other blabla in this chat box
20100406 14:08:39< Rigor> i dont think that u would even need to download a new version of wesnoth
20100406 14:08:49< shadowmaster> *yes*, you would
20100406 14:08:57< Rigor> heeh
20100406 14:09:03< Rigor> ok but i guess
20100406 14:09:15< Rigor> 1.8 with its scrolling down issue wont stay there for too long
20100406 14:09:27< Rigor> so a really small change like that couldnt hurt anybody
20100406 14:09:30< shadowmaster> *sigh* you are assuming too much
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20100406 14:09:48< shadowmaster> features don't go into stable/maintenance branches to begin with
20100406 14:10:31< Rigor> sounds ok 
20100406 14:10:38< Rigor> it doesnt have to be there tomorrow :D
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20100406 14:11:22< shadowmaster> just don't be surprised if your feature request isn't answered until 2014
20100406 14:11:53< Rigor> fight the system of procrastrination ! :D
20100406 14:11:54< zookeeper> buy a coin and flip that to get your 1 or 2.
20100406 14:12:05< Rigor> thanks zookeeper i considered that one too :)
20100406 14:12:22< Rigor> it doesnt work. i cant buy a coin
20100406 14:12:54< Rigor> you need something that is really making sure that u just flipped 1 or 2 
20100406 14:13:02< Rigor> i really like this one http://www.randomresult.com/ 
20100406 14:13:21< Rigor> but then i thought some ppl might think its too complicated to click on the link "get or check a ticket
20100406 14:14:19< Rigor> http://www.randomresult.com/ticket.php?t=28XBWCJ
20100406 14:14:52< shadowmaster> perl -e 'print (int(rand(2))+1)'
20100406 14:15:11< shadowmaster> that's my local coin flipper
20100406 14:15:42< Rigor> yes yes i dont think its too hard to do that in real life as well, but id like to have this feature in the lobby
20100406 14:15:57< Rigor> you ask for one you get one
20100406 14:16:05< Rigor> and everybody will believe u
20100406 14:16:34< zookeeper> i'm guessing the people who could implement it would want you to have that feature in the lobby.
20100406 14:16:39< zookeeper> err
20100406 14:16:42< zookeeper> wouldn't want, i meant
20100406 14:17:05< shadowmaster> it could possibly be implemented without actually broadcasting a message to the other  clients
20100406 14:17:12< Rigor> i can understand that ur sceptical :D
20100406 14:17:15< shadowmaster> er, I mean, without sending a message to the lobby
20100406 14:17:35< Rigor> it could be implemented to send only the two of us a message as well
20100406 14:17:52< Rigor> like /dice Rigor zookepper
20100406 14:18:08< shadowmaster> ...I'd rather see it sent to everyone or none.
20100406 14:18:18< shadowmaster> but that's just me and the lobby is not my business
20100406 14:18:21< Rigor> me too 
20100406 14:18:59< Rigor> so what might be problems with this little feature
20100406 14:19:17< Rigor> spam? as much as u get from other players
20100406 14:19:36< Rigor> everybody will use it ? maybe the first week
20100406 14:20:05< Rigor> im out of arguments. :D
20100406 14:21:15< zookeeper> maybe you could give someone a reason to do it besides a random person on the internet wanting it.
20100406 14:21:48< Rigor> ok
20100406 14:22:16< Rigor> im a ladder admin and id love to see that deciding which side one will pick in a game
20100406 14:24:43< zookeeper> well there you go.
20100406 14:25:05< Rigor> already?
20100406 14:25:09< zookeeper> no
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20100406 14:25:55< zookeeper> a better idea would seem to be to allow the sides to be randomized when creating the game.
20100406 14:26:08< Rigor> the consequence would be that if its no problem to decide if your 1 or 2 you could also let the /dice command spit out a random number from 1-10 to decide what map will be played and nobody would need grrrs (who doesnt want to maintain his mod it in the future)
20100406 14:26:36< Rigor> addon.
20100406 14:26:46< zookeeper> but at least you now have a proper reason for such a feature
20100406 14:26:52< zookeeper> afk ->
20100406 14:26:58< Rigor> =)
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20100406 14:33:41< Ivanovic> Rigor: for a latter the better way is always having two matches
20100406 14:33:47< Ivanovic> each player playing each side once
20100406 14:34:04< Rigor> yes thats all nice but
20100406 14:34:10< Rigor> sometimes one doesnt want to rematch
20100406 14:34:16< Rigor> and sometimes games take more than just 3h
20100406 14:35:02< Rigor> but thats just future blabla
20100406 14:35:12< Ivanovic> but the only fair solution *is* such a double match
20100406 14:35:15< Rigor> id first like to see /dice for 1 or 2 
20100406 14:35:39< Ivanovic> Rigor: like zookeeper said, write a feature request stating the reasons and a possible solution
20100406 14:35:51< Ivanovic> where i'd prefer the solution "player does not know the side in advance"
20100406 14:35:54< Rigor> yes i totally agree with you, and i would even extend it to lets say 17 matches but usually u dont play that many matches to decide whos the better player :D
20100406 14:36:24< Ivanovic> since the /dice command is not really what you do want, you want random starting positions
20100406 14:37:09< Rigor> yes but i think having an instant answer to your request which comes through the lobby might be ok as well 
20100406 14:37:31< Ivanovic> and now consider what we might implement
20100406 14:37:39< Ivanovic> some strange hackish solution with the potential to spam
20100406 14:37:49< Ivanovic> or a solution that does clearly what you really want to have
20100406 14:37:55< Rigor> i just want to hear the problem again :D
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20100406 15:12:05< Dakmor> Heya guys
20100406 15:12:38< Dakmor> The GSoC deadline is catching up now!
20100406 15:13:39< Dakmor> I've been busy for the weekend but would like to get some stuff from the EasyCoding section done now.
20100406 15:13:53< Rigor> hi
20100406 15:14:08< Dakmor> I'm applying for the GUI2 related project, any suggestions as to which Easycoding problem to go for?
20100406 15:14:11< Dakmor> Heya Rigor
20100406 15:14:20< Rigor> im trying to post my first eh yeah post on the https://gna.org/bugs site
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20100406 15:14:45-!- erenn [~erenn@78.170.37.38] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100406 15:16:23< erenn> hello all
20100406 15:16:26< Rigor> hi
20100406 15:17:08< Dakmor> Hey erenn
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20100406 15:18:45< Rigor> im still trying to "post something" button
20100406 15:19:01< Rigor> to find
20100406 15:21:23< erenn> Ivanovic, are you here then ?
20100406 15:24:03< Dakmor> Mordante and SkeletonCrew are the same person, right?
20100406 15:24:25< shadowmaster> Dakmor: that's right
20100406 15:24:32< Dakmor> Okay thanks.
20100406 15:24:57< Dakmor> I guess it's him I should be talking to about the GUI2 project?
20100406 15:25:24< shadowmaster> I guess so. He's the mastermind behind GUI2.
20100406 15:25:33< Dakmor> Cool thanks =]
20100406 15:32:26< happygrue> Rigor: I think random starting positions is an interesting idea.  I think it would be used a lot of the time, perhaps it should even be the default.  It is a good thing to request.
20100406 15:35:00< happygrue> A short term solution might be a simple random number generator on (or linked to from) the ladder website.
20100406 15:40:00-!- exDM69 [~riku@e-werk.entropy.fi] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100406 15:40:02< exDM69> yo guys
20100406 15:40:06-!- DesertPanther [~Khalid@unaffiliated/desertpanther] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100406 15:40:24< exDM69> I came here because I'm interested in GSoCing in wesnoth, are there any GSOc mentors present?
20100406 15:41:05< happygrue> exDM69: they are always lurking, just ask whatever and someone will get back to you
20100406 15:41:28< exDM69> the idea that appealed to me the most was the network stack rewrite
20100406 15:42:02< Rigor> thanks for responding happygrue
20100406 15:42:15< exDM69> there's already been a couple of applications to taht project
20100406 15:42:24< Rigor> i had this stupid feeling that most ppl have been rather sceptical so far ;)
20100406 15:42:54< happygrue> Rigor: I think it wasn't clear maybe what you originally wanted
20100406 15:43:07< happygrue> I was also skeptical at first ;)
20100406 15:43:14< Rigor> a random number generator for a random generator gam ;)
20100406 15:43:16< Rigor> haha :D
20100406 15:43:22< Rigor> awwwwee-some :D
20100406 15:43:25< happygrue> well, the question is why bother?
20100406 15:43:31< happygrue> just do that on the ladder site
20100406 15:43:38< Rigor> the link to it ?
20100406 15:43:45< happygrue> but the actual idea of making sides random is really good I think
20100406 15:43:51< happygrue> either way
20100406 15:44:24< Rigor> yep thats what we have been TALKIING about for pretty long... now that im admin its time for ACTION
20100406 15:44:29< happygrue> link to a dicelog or something, or make a little button near where you sign in.  Or as an option from looking up players
20100406 15:45:16< Rigor> yes yes all super great ideas 
20100406 15:45:17< Rigor> but
20100406 15:45:21< happygrue> Rigor: recall that the ladder has *nothing* to do with wesnoth in terms of 'making stuff happen'.  So the way to get something done is to file a feature request for something that will be a 'good idea'
20100406 15:45:22< Rigor> i have thought about those too
20100406 15:45:35< Rigor> yes i know that :D
20100406 15:45:39< happygrue> good ;)
20100406 15:46:00< Rigor> so the thing is i knew about posting a link to a random number generator and i found one that is really easy to operate
20100406 15:46:27< Rigor> but then i thought why the hell bother with such an external thing when u can have it from the lobyb as well with almost no efford ?
20100406 15:47:28< happygrue> Rigor: just becareful, because people show up all the time demanding things that require 'almost no effort' - and that annoys pepople.
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20100406 15:47:47< happygrue> it is effort for someone ;)
20100406 15:48:14< happygrue> it's not the effort that matters, it's the idea in a lot of cases, and the reason.
20100406 15:48:18< Rigor> yes yes i know that it takes some time to type the command line and  to verify it and make sure nothign happens when u do it
20100406 15:48:33< Rigor> and then to prevent abuse of course
20100406 15:48:41< Rigor> i am aware of those things
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20100406 15:49:06< Rigor> but the truth is... it seems to be really somethign pretty simple and it has met huge resonance in the forums already
20100406 15:49:13< happygrue> anyway, have you filed a feature request?
20100406 15:49:20< Rigor> its not like im proposing to reduce the footies HP to less
20100406 15:49:30< happygrue> Rigor: that also will happen
20100406 15:49:32< Rigor> yes im writing on it i needed somebody to tell me how to do that ;)
20100406 15:49:45< Rigor> i certainly hope so :D
20100406 15:49:47< happygrue> http://wiki.wesnoth.org/ReportingBugs
20100406 15:49:57< Rigor> but for starters i want to post something easy :D
20100406 15:50:02< happygrue> file it as a bug but mark 'feature request' as shadowmaster indicated
20100406 15:50:12< Rigor> yes i am already registered but the problem was i couldnt find the post a thread button :D:D
20100406 15:50:24< happygrue> propose what you want and the reasons, link to forum thread supporting it if you like
20100406 15:50:29< happygrue> hehe
20100406 15:50:31< Rigor> HEHE
20100406 15:50:46< Rigor> yep so let me finish writing the request then well continue our little chit chat
20100406 15:50:57< Rigor> operating system ? :D windows XP ?
20100406 15:50:57< shadowmaster> Rigor: it's not a forum, hence no "post button"
20100406 15:50:58 * happygrue bows low
20100406 15:51:04< shadowmaster> you want "submit" instead
20100406 15:51:20< Rigor> yes the problem is its in german here :D and the word would mean "send it" :D not submit :D
20100406 15:51:35< shadowmaster> also, you want a feature for just Windows, or do you want us Linux users to be unable to enjoy it as well? (hint)
20100406 15:53:46< Ivanovic> Rigor: just try "Error" in the top pane and there select "send in" (or whatevery it is in your lang)
20100406 15:54:01< Ivanovic> fill out everything in the form
20100406 15:54:03< Rigor> as title u think this one is too long ?
20100406 15:54:03< Rigor> Random Number Generator in the lobby for p1/p2 decision
20100406 15:54:04< happygrue> Rigor: by the way I am Wintermute (also a ladder admin)
20100406 15:54:12< Rigor> ah dont tell :D
20100406 15:54:22< Rigor> shakehands,shakehands :D
20100406 15:54:30< happygrue> heh
20100406 15:54:52< happygrue> Rigor: we have some email stuff but the ladder admins are mostly not very active and didn't want an IRC channel
20100406 15:55:02< Rigor> omg i have to fill out this thing i feel like on the magistrate asking for my confirmation of citizenship D::D:D:D
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20100406 15:55:32< happygrue> perhaps we could start one, or google group or something so that there is an archive for when new admins come in?  (something that is not #wesnoth-dev)
20100406 15:55:38< Rigor> ok the following: ill finish writing my request then ill read it to u and u tell me what i missed
20100406 15:56:03< Rigor> and then and only then we continue chatting else i might get too distracted he-hee :D
20100406 15:56:08< happygrue> er, actually I am about to leave, just leave a link to it and I will look at it after
20100406 15:56:23< Rigor> alright so the damage will be done already ;)
20100406 15:56:29< happygrue> good luck ;)
20100406 15:56:31< happygrue> hehe
20100406 15:56:32< Rigor> i guess ill manage it all alone :D
20100406 15:56:46< Rigor> are u online in around 5h ?
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20100406 16:10:21< Rigor> ok anybody here to read it ?
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20100406 16:23:55< Dakmor> buntu
20100406 16:23:58< Dakmor> oops
20100406 16:24:00< Dakmor> ignore that
20100406 16:24:06< Dakmor> Wrong window =p
20100406 16:24:16< timotei-temp> it's ok, nobody saw that :D
20100406 16:24:35-!- timotei [~timotei21@188.24.6.233] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds]
20100406 16:24:39< Rigor> https://gna.org/bugs/?15798
20100406 16:24:46< Rigor> first post takes 2h ;D
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20100406 16:25:30< timotei-temp> that would be interesting:P
20100406 16:25:35< timotei-temp> just like WoW's roll?
20100406 16:25:40< timotei-temp>  /roll
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20100406 16:29:34< CIA-64> ai0867 * r42022 /trunk/data/core/units/monsters/ (Cave_Spider.cfg Giant_Spider.cfg): Move Cave_Spider.cfg to Giant_Spider.cfg in order to match unit id and name. Found by artisticdude (http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=29466&start=0)
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20100406 16:39:51< Rigor> i dont know wow
20100406 16:40:34< Rigor> the bad thing is i had to say everything that resulted in lots of text
20100406 16:40:46< Rigor> the good thing is it might get the attention ;)
20100406 16:40:47< Rigor> hrhrhr
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20100406 16:40:57< timotei-temp> :P
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20100406 16:42:59< Rigor> ill make it oligatory :D
20100406 16:43:09< Rigor> for the ladder at least, i mean we r fighting for points ! :D
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20100406 16:54:34< Rigor> -> off
20100406 16:54:37< Rigor> bb everyone
20100406 16:54:44< Rigor> and thx for feedback
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20100406 16:54:47< timotei-temp> bye bye
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20100406 17:06:53< Sirp> Rhonda: around?
20100406 17:07:00< Rhonda> Partly.
20100406 17:07:04< Sirp> okay
20100406 17:07:43< Sirp> Rhonda: it seems to me like the website is slow at the moment, and from looking at sar it seems like we are spending a lot of time in iowait, I suspect due to MySQL not being able to load all tables into RAM
20100406 17:08:00< Sirp> Rhonda: so I'm wondering if you have any insights into either (1) how to fix this; (2) whether more server resources would help us.
20100406 17:08:39< Sirp> I'm thinking of either (1) doing a full upgrade on our server; or (2) just getting 2GB more RAM on our server; or (3) getting a second server, and splitting services between the two servers.
20100406 17:09:35< Rhonda> Sirp: Because of http://rhonda.deb.at/blog/personal/2010/03/29 my time schedule is currently pretty tight, so I won't promise a too timely respond to that question, but I'll try to figure out my best.
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20100406 17:11:00< Rhonda> Actually from looking at collectd.wesnoth.org the disk I/O doesn't look too tragic in general. There are some peaks though that look interesting.
20100406 17:11:23< Rhonda> oh, wait, sda3 looks suspicious
20100406 17:11:57< Crab_> Darkas: I've read your changes to your proposal. Looks good, but more technical details about the approach you're going to use, are welcome.
20100406 17:12:30< Rhonda> But sdb is totally bored. Maybe we should split some stuff to there? Haven't looked too much into partitioning yet, though.
20100406 17:12:52< Crab_> cool_coder: I see that you've having a problems creating a wiki page, leave a message for me, if you want me to create it for you.
20100406 17:14:21< Ivanovic> Rhonda: in general we should only have 2 harddrives
20100406 17:14:30< Ivanovic> one is meant as backup drive and one as "normal drive"
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20100406 17:16:12< Rhonda> Ivanovic: Well, having it as "backup" drive doesn't help with I/O, I'd rather use some backup section on both of them and share the i/o for the rest of the disks.
20100406 17:16:20< Rhonda> That way both can go crazy if they like.
20100406 17:16:39 * Rhonda . o O ( just a little bit brainstorming because I'm pretty stressed out right now )
20100406 17:17:14< Dakmor> Does anyone know what url I should be using if I want to add the wesnoth SVN repository to Eclipse?
20100406 17:17:28< Dakmor> (I've got Subclipse installed)
20100406 17:17:39< timotei-temp> yes Dakmor 
20100406 17:17:44< timotei-temp> http://svn.gna.org/svn/wesnoth/trunk 
20100406 17:17:45< timotei-temp> this
20100406 17:17:51< Ivanovic> Dakmor: all info is available at svn.wesnoth.org
20100406 17:17:56< Dakmor> Hmmm... it's giving me some weid errors
20100406 17:17:58< Dakmor> Ah okay thanks
20100406 17:18:03< Dakmor> weird*
20100406 17:18:03< timotei-temp> Dakmor, http://wiki.wesnoth.org/WesnothSVN - the full page
20100406 17:18:14< timotei-temp> if it rejects http:// try with: svn://
20100406 17:18:24< Dakmor> Ah okay thanks a lot guys
20100406 17:18:28< timotei-temp> np
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20100406 17:20:43< Dakmor> Yeah it was because I had http:// that was messing it up
20100406 17:20:49< Dakmor> Strange
20100406 17:21:03< timotei-temp> some accept http://, some not (subversion clients)
20100406 17:23:36< Sirp> Rhonda: it seems that we are reading up to ~20MB/s from the disk, and having over 50% of CPU in iowait for up to 10 minutes at a time
20100406 17:23:59< Sirp> Rhonda: and congratulations! :)
20100406 17:24:17< Ivanovic> somehow i think it might make sense to move wesnothd and campaignd to a different box
20100406 17:24:32< timotei-temp> hey Sirp, I have a question.
20100406 17:24:36< Sirp> Ivanovic: yeah I tend to agree that could be a good idea.
20100406 17:24:40< shadowmaster> Ivanovic: yeah
20100406 17:24:41< Ivanovic> that is: one problem would have to be solved: how to handle downloads of replays
20100406 17:24:45< timotei-temp> where is the FIRST main where the game enters at startup?
20100406 17:24:52< Ivanovic> though those can easily be done from the campaignd/wesnothd box, too
20100406 17:25:02< timotei-temp> or does it enter straight in game_controller::game_controller(int argc, char** argv)  ?
20100406 17:25:07< Sirp> Ivanovic: we can always still put an apache instance on the box with campaignd/wesnothd
20100406 17:25:19< timotei-temp> I knew there had to be a int/void main() for the start
20100406 17:25:22< Ivanovic> Sirp: we require one there for the webinterface to addons
20100406 17:25:26< Crab_> timotei-temp: see src/game.cpp
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20100406 17:25:39< Crab_> timotei21: around line 2000, if I remember right
20100406 17:25:44< Ivanovic> Sirp: so what would basically be left on the "other" server would be forum and wiki (plus the tiny rest of the website)
20100406 17:25:55< timotei21> oh, yes
20100406 17:25:56< Sirp> timotei21: yes, src/game.cpp
20100406 17:25:59< Sirp> int main(int argc, char** argv)
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20100406 17:26:05< timotei21> thanks Crab_. Didn't saw the main :))
20100406 17:26:15< Ivanovic> plus stuff like g.w.o, devdocs and the announcement texts
20100406 17:26:28< Sirp> Ivanovic: yes.
20100406 17:26:35< Sirp> Ivanovic: but then there are also a bunch of daily jobs that are run
20100406 17:26:48< Ivanovic> even more than daily
20100406 17:27:07< Ivanovic> the g.w.o stuff is run every 30mins, devdocs is daily, announcment fetching is every 30mins
20100406 17:31:02< Ivanovic> Sirp: i hope that you are fine that i posted your "rng code" in the forums
20100406 17:31:21< Ivanovic> just wanted to make sure that users don't start to believe "but, but, the code shows that!!!"
20100406 17:31:24< Ivanovic> ;)
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20100406 17:32:12< nagbot> Hi!
20100406 17:32:13< nagbot> An announcement for ALL Google Summer of Code Students:
20100406 17:32:14< nagbot> Make sure you commit your proposal at google soon, don't wait until the latest moment just to discover your internet connection is down
20100406 17:32:15< nagbot> http://socghop.appspot.com/gsoc/student/apply/google/gsoc2010
20100406 17:32:16< nagbot> The deadline is coming - application period closes at Apr 9th, 19:00 UTC (12:00 PST)
20100406 17:32:17< nagbot> Everyone not enlisted in the google tracker at that time will have *no* chance to participate with Wesnoth as part of summer of code 2010, no matter how good you communicated with us or *whatever* 
20100406 17:32:18< nagbot> We can select ONLY people listed there!
20100406 17:32:19< nagbot> Submit patches and prototypes for review, so we'll see how you work.
20100406 17:32:20< nagbot> Join the IRC discussions.
20100406 17:32:59< ancestral> So I was reading this (http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=29465 ) and found it curious that we could lose or forget the original authors
20100406 17:33:04< shadowmaster> Ivanovic: I'm going to add Dead Water to mainline in a few minutes (unless an earthquake destroys this place ;)
20100406 17:33:22< shadowmaster> Ivanovic: can you take care of importing the translations from WesCamp-18n?
20100406 17:33:24< Ivanovic> shadowmaster: ohoh, chances for the earthquake are >0
20100406 17:33:26< ancestral> Is there any reason we don't have a few more meta tags in the map file format? i.e. author="mynamehere"
20100406 17:33:26< Ivanovic> ;)
20100406 17:33:44< Ivanovic> i will have a look at importing things, but this has to wait a little, will leave in some 20mins for some hours
20100406 17:34:19< shadowmaster> okay, no hurry. All that trunk uses would get is a few warnings
20100406 17:34:22< shadowmaster> users
20100406 17:34:58< Ivanovic> there is a little bit more to do than just copy over the *po* files from wescamp
20100406 17:35:19< Ivanovic> stuff to do is update the build systems, make sure the findcfg and the likes files are there, update g.w.o, ...
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20100406 17:36:00< erenn> hi Ivanovic 
20100406 17:36:10< Ivanovic> hi erenn
20100406 17:37:07< Ivanovic> shadowmaster: though before importing i do need to know where from
20100406 17:37:24< Ivanovic> looks like there is some stuff in the 1.8 branches, but only czech is translated there and the stats are off
20100406 17:38:24< erenn> Ivanovic,  i have an idea 
20100406 17:38:28< shadowmaster> there might be string differences between the 1.8 branch and trunk but I have no idea about what the translation status for DW (aside from what s.w.o says) is since we don't handle those
20100406 17:38:33< Ivanovic> shadowmaster: do you mean this one? http://svn.berlios.de/viewcvs/wescamp-i18n/branches/1.8/Dead_Water/
20100406 17:38:36< shadowmaster> *slight string differences
20100406 17:38:55< erenn> i would like to implement a particle engine in bfw
20100406 17:38:57< shadowmaster> Ivanovic: well, that's what is at wescamp, yes. That should be based on the most up to date releaed version
20100406 17:39:06< Ivanovic> i know that at least a german translator has done some work and that is not reflected in wescamp
20100406 17:39:23< Ivanovic> anyway, asked him to directly send me his file anyway, so that i can directly update it
20100406 17:39:47< Ivanovic> erenn: you should write some details, though i am not around right now to discuss things with you
20100406 17:39:54< Ivanovic> some others will read it and comment, i am sure
20100406 17:40:06< erenn> i implemented a particle engine before
20100406 17:40:10< erenn> :)
20100406 17:40:17< erenn> those are cool visual effects
20100406 17:40:45< Ivanovic> erenn: the question is how to do it for wesnoth
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20100406 17:41:03< Ivanovic> especially since we do also consider eventually switching over to opengl (which might happen in the 1.9.x time)
20100406 17:41:11< erenn> yeap , i'll explain it soon
20100406 17:41:28< Ivanovic> that is: how would your proposed particle system interact with what is currently available and how would it be affected by a port to opengl
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20100406 17:43:19< Sirp> Ivanovic: I had no problem with it. :)
20100406 17:43:28< Ivanovic> Sirp: good
20100406 17:43:37< Sirp> Ivanovic: though one of the developers of Civ3 old this story that I've always been tempted to replicate....
20100406 17:43:49< Sirp> ....where some testers of Civ3 complained the RNG was buggy
20100406 17:43:59< Sirp> so he made it so that 70% of the time the RNG favors the player
20100406 17:44:06< Sirp> and gave it to them to test
20100406 17:44:15< Sirp> then they told him "wow this is great! You fixed it! The RNG is completely fair now!"
20100406 17:44:16< Ivanovic> suddenly all complaints were at least significantly reduced
20100406 17:44:35< Ivanovic> really suprising, isn't it?
20100406 17:44:37< Ivanovic> ;)
20100406 17:44:40< Sirp> I have always been tempted to have a way to get a version of Wesnoth in the wild like that. :) But it'd play too much havoc with MP
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20100406 17:46:39< loonycyborg> Sirp: There one interesting thing with civ3's randomness: it seems to save the seed in saved games.
20100406 17:46:52< loonycyborg> Not like that makes saveloading impossible :P
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20100406 17:51:10< Sirp> loonycyborg: that's a common feature in many games, but I don't see it giving any appreciable benefit.
20100406 17:51:48< Ivanovic> anyway, i am off now for some hours (something like 4 to 5h or the likes)
20100406 17:51:50< Ivanovic> cu
20100406 17:51:57< Sirp> though it does provide the additional amusement of people saying "the RNG is SO unfair! I was going to attack the spearman with my tank and I lost...so I loaded my save, and did it again, and lost again! I tried a dozen more times and lost every time! It's so rigged!!!"
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20100406 18:01:38< shadowmaster> Ivanovic: er, it looks like SVN is down :/
20100406 18:01:56< shadowmaster> Network connection closed unexpectedly:  at /usr/lib/git-core/git-svn line 2290
20100406 18:03:04< shadowmaster> I'm starting to think that we should move to a better funded host provider
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20100406 18:05:10< Sirp> shadowmaster: do you mean for svn?
20100406 18:05:18< shadowmaster> yes.
20100406 18:05:39< shadowmaster> too bad that the integration with Gna's ML and bug tracker facilities is just so damn convenient
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20100406 18:09:04< Sirp> hi icelus 
20100406 18:09:08< icelus> hey sirp
20100406 18:09:09< Sirp> nice to see you around. :) how're things?
20100406 18:09:10< icelus> long time =)
20100406 18:09:17< icelus> yeah 
20100406 18:09:22< icelus> good =)
20100406 18:09:25< icelus> i see you moved to dallas
20100406 18:09:52< icelus> i had a quick question about the mp bug crab suggested last night
20100406 18:10:14< Sirp> oh?
20100406 18:10:18< icelus> https://gna.org/bugs/?15560
20100406 18:10:25< icelus> yeah i'm just playing with the wesnoth source
20100406 18:10:35< icelus> thought i'd get familiar with it, maybe help out a little
20100406 18:10:45< icelus> i've never really contributed because i'm just not good enough at this game
20100406 18:10:52< icelus> but there are non-gameplay things i can help with maybe
20100406 18:10:55< icelus> it's a nice codebase
20100406 18:10:56< timotei21> who used from here omnicompletition with vim?
20100406 18:11:07< icelus> anyway that bug is really interesting
20100406 18:11:14< icelus> crab set it as a challenge =)
20100406 18:11:27< icelus> i see why it happens, but its part of a bigger set of problems
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20100406 18:11:41< icelus> and i can band-aid it in various ways or we can try to work out
20100406 18:11:46< icelus> how it should be fixed properly
20100406 18:12:52< shadowmaster> esr: what rank should DW have?
20100406 18:12:57< shadowmaster> (considering it's intermediate level)
20100406 18:13:36< esr> shadowmaster: I'll look at it.
20100406 18:14:12< shadowmaster> (do not commit anything anywhere!)
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20100406 18:21:44< shadowmaster> well, svn alive again
20100406 18:22:01< shadowmaster> I have converted everything, testing now
20100406 18:22:30< shadowmaster> er, after recompiling. I've got a broken build that SIGTRAPs on startup -.-
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20100406 18:32:17< shadowmaster> wow, DW's history in wesnoth-umc-dev is really short
20100406 18:33:35< icelus> so is the current auto levelling thing considered desirable
20100406 18:34:07< icelus> that is: is it considered desirable that advances out of turn in multiplayer are decided automatically
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20100406 18:38:30< Soliton> icelus: yes, that's a deliberate design decision.
20100406 18:38:56< Soliton> icelus: no interaction should be required from a player out-of-turn.
20100406 18:39:10< icelus> well that's not the only way of doing it though right
20100406 18:39:27< icelus> i mean you could say "ok this guy is ready to level up" and then when it comes to be their turn
20100406 18:39:33< icelus> they could get to select then
20100406 18:39:43< icelus> the character remains its current until then
20100406 18:40:02< icelus> uh unit sorry
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20100406 18:40:33< Soliton> icelus: that has a bunch of issues.
20100406 18:40:38< icelus> well...
20100406 18:40:44< icelus> i think you need a mechanism like that anyway
20100406 18:40:49< icelus> to solve this bug i'm looking at
20100406 18:40:50< icelus> well
20100406 18:40:52< icelus> i dunno
20100406 18:40:56< icelus> what kind of issues do you see?
20100406 18:40:59< icelus> i don't see technical issues
20100406 18:41:00< Soliton> icelus: a nicer way is to preselect the advancement path. there is an era that allows that.
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20100406 18:41:41< Soliton> icelus: what happens if that near level unit gets attacked?
20100406 18:42:05< icelus> Soliton, how do you mean?
20100406 18:42:06< Soliton> they're gameplay issues.
20100406 18:42:11< icelus> in terms of xp or in terms of combat
20100406 18:42:19< shadowmaster> esr: anything yet?
20100406 18:42:21< icelus> in combat it would fight as if it were the lower level unit it still is
20100406 18:42:27< icelus> in terms of xp, you'd just cap it at max xp
20100406 18:42:38< icelus> or you could let it go above max xp until the turn ends
20100406 18:42:47< icelus> and just deduct its level xp next level
20100406 18:42:50< Soliton> you say that like it's the most obvious and desirable thing in the world. :-P
20100406 18:42:57< icelus> well no i don't at all
20100406 18:43:00< icelus> is why i asked
20100406 18:43:07< icelus> but i'm not clear what issues we're looking at
20100406 18:43:21< icelus> i can fix this bug by adding a "should advance" flag to a unit
20100406 18:43:31< icelus> i could fix it other ways but this seems optimal to me
20100406 18:43:35< esr> shadowmaster: I'm prepping for a release.  Might not have enough time today.  But I can esuly tweak that after we mainline.
20100406 18:43:39< icelus> the question is, does such a flag have more uses
20100406 18:43:44< icelus> this would be be one use for it
20100406 18:43:49< deekay> So basically it would die after being overwhelemed by enemy who won't allow it to lvlup at its owner's turn.
20100406 18:44:26< icelus> if its preferable for it to be a random level 2 that you didnt necessarily want that's fine
20100406 18:44:27< shadowmaster> esr: okay, no problem with that
20100406 18:44:28< Soliton> icelus: to make it short such a solution has a chance of <1% of getting accepted.
20100406 18:44:30< icelus> i mean its already been in combat
20100406 18:44:36< icelus> ok fine
20100406 18:44:37< Soliton> icelus: it's been discussed before.
20100406 18:44:46< icelus> ok
20100406 18:45:25< Soliton> not trying to cut your ideas off though. :-)
20100406 18:46:05< icelus> oh i don't really mind it just looked like an architectural problem
20100406 18:46:09< icelus> if its desired as is that's fine
20100406 18:46:09< Soliton> i don't really have time to discuss it in detail right now but you could search the forum for previous discussions.
20100406 18:46:17< icelus> it doesn't make much difference to this patch
20100406 18:46:21< Soliton> alright.
20100406 18:46:23< icelus> i just thought i was killing 2 birds with 1 stone
20100406 18:47:24< Soliton> it's desired as is except maybe something similar/nicer as that preset advancement era.
20100406 18:47:27< shadowmaster> icelus: I like birds, so please don't :(
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20100406 18:53:46< icelus> hey crab_
20100406 18:53:52< Crab_> hi, icelus
20100406 18:54:04< icelus> so i foudn the source of that bug
20100406 18:54:10< Crab_> that's good :)
20100406 18:54:17< icelus> the problem is pretty simple
20100406 18:54:25< icelus> the wml hacks the xp up
20100406 18:54:32< icelus> then resets it back down again
20100406 18:54:38< icelus> if the unit doesnt advance on the first try
20100406 18:54:46< icelus> then during the replay it doesnt have enough xp
20100406 18:54:49< icelus> and its levelling is rejected
20100406 18:55:06< icelus> so i mean there's more than one way you could fix that right
20100406 18:55:21< icelus> my basic idea was add a flag
20100406 18:55:28< icelus> "this unit can advance, ignoring xp"
20100406 18:55:35< icelus> set that flag in that specific condition
20100406 18:55:44< Crab_> the problem is that we might not know to which unit will this unit advance
20100406 18:55:55< icelus> well we do that's ok
20100406 18:56:00< Crab_> consider '[unstore_unit] advance="yes" advances_to=unitA,unitB'
20100406 18:56:02< icelus> because the replay says what unit it should advance to
20100406 18:56:20< icelus> the wml isn't important because the master account of what happened
20100406 18:56:22< icelus> is in the replay
20100406 18:56:31< icelus> its simply that the replay is not accepted as valid
20100406 18:56:35< icelus> because the unit cannot advance
20100406 18:56:39< icelus> because it doesn't have enough xp
20100406 18:56:58< icelus> because its levelling was only made possible by wml hacks in the first place =p
20100406 18:57:10< Crab_> the problem happens earlier than ' doesn't have enough xp'
20100406 18:57:14< shadowmaster> *PHEW*
20100406 18:57:15< Sirp> icelus: so are you hoping to be a GSoC student?
20100406 18:57:21< shadowmaster> DW had some bugs I didn't notice in trunk :/
20100406 18:57:28< icelus> Sirp: naw i have enough going on in my life
20100406 18:57:32< icelus> Crab_, it definitely doesn't
20100406 18:57:41< icelus> just take out the line in your test case where it resets xp
20100406 18:57:44< icelus> and everything works fine
20100406 18:57:45< icelus> uh
20100406 18:57:58< Crab_> icelus: ok, show me the patch, I'll check it out.
20100406 18:59:03< icelus> well the question is what the fix should be 
20100406 18:59:27< icelus> i think just flagging "this unit can ignore xp because we know its ok for it to advance"
20100406 18:59:30< icelus> is the best solution
20100406 18:59:34< icelus> even though its inelegant
20100406 18:59:40< icelus> because it preserves what people expect to happen at present
20100406 19:00:29< Crab_> icelus: imagine the situation: host 1 (his turn) does: 1)  'unstore unit which will advance into either a spearman or a zombie, with 50% chance of each' 2) 'store the number of zombies into variable' 
20100406 19:00:53< Crab_> icelus: host 2 must replicate the sequence exactly, to get the same value in the variable
20100406 19:01:26< Crab_> icelus: so, even if unit will advance after (1)-(2) has taken place, things still might go OOS.
20100406 19:01:49< Crab_> icelus: as the unit needs to advance at (1)
20100406 19:02:12< icelus> i don't see this
20100406 19:02:41< icelus> because think of it like this
20100406 19:02:45< Crab_> but, as of now, WML_HANDLER_FUNCTION(unstore_unit doesn't even call advance if the side is not local
20100406 19:02:51< icelus> yeah but that's ok
20100406 19:02:57< CIA-64> shadowmaster * r42023 /trunk/ (156 files in 17 dirs): (log message trimmed)
20100406 19:02:57< CIA-64> Dead Water: new campaign mainlined from the Wesnoth-UMC-Dev Project
20100406 19:02:57< CIA-64> (Intermediate level, 13 scenarios; the current rank may need to be changed later)
20100406 19:02:57< CIA-64> The following changes were made after the mainline import tag in the repository:
20100406 19:02:57< CIA-64> * Removed uses of VICTORY_AND_DEFEAT_MUSIC (dep. in 1.5.x)
20100406 19:02:58< CIA-64> * Minor changes to _main.cfg in accordance with standards
20100406 19:02:58< icelus> i thought that was the problem too when i first looked at it
20100406 19:02:59< CIA-64> * Switched to a campaign menu-standard version of the Merman Hunter portrait
20100406 19:03:04< icelus> but i don't think that is the problem
20100406 19:03:14< shadowmaster> esr: mainlined.
20100406 19:03:24< Crab_> icelus: ok. but what about the action  (2) 'store the number of zombies into variable' , which will happen next ?
20100406 19:03:26< shadowmaster> Ivanovic: ^
20100406 19:03:37< esr> shadowmaster: Thanks.
20100406 19:03:38< Crab_> icelus: it'll yield different results on those two hosts, isn't it ?
20100406 19:04:00< icelus> hm
20100406 19:04:09< CIA-64> shadowmaster * r42024 /trunk/data/campaigns/Dead_Water/ (36 files in 5 dirs): Ran umcpropfix on Dead Water to fix SVN properties after migration
20100406 19:04:27< Crab_> as there is no 'read from replay till we get information about the advancement choice' part in there, as of now
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20100406 19:05:03< Crab_> icelus: so, the advancement must happen just-after-unstore, before any further wml tags are processed. your solution gives us that ?
20100406 19:05:10< CIA-64> shadowmaster * r42025 /trunk/data/campaigns/Dead_Water/utils/dw-utils.cfg: Make Kai Krellis unrenamable!
20100406 19:05:15< icelus> hm no it doesn't
20100406 19:05:16< icelus> ok so
20100406 19:05:32< icelus> this is fundamentally ill posed
20100406 19:05:34< icelus> isn't it
20100406 19:05:46< icelus> because doing the advancement right then doesn't help me either
20100406 19:05:50< icelus> consider this
20100406 19:06:03< icelus> because the local player could get to decide their advancement
20100406 19:06:18< icelus> no solution like the present one
20100406 19:06:24< icelus> could ever work right...
20100406 19:06:33< Crab_> well, then what should be done ?
20100406 19:06:36< icelus> you can sync rngs but you can't predict a human's behaviour
20100406 19:06:42< icelus> well your reading the replay thing makes sense
20100406 19:06:56< icelus> but will be intensely hard to do right
20100406 19:07:00< icelus> i dunno i need to think again
20100406 19:07:05< Crab_> i was thinking about pausing the processing except for parsing chat messages and the like, waiting for the data  about the user choice to appear
20100406 19:07:07< icelus> i hadn't thought of synchronising the wml state
20100406 19:07:29< stikonas> shadowmaster, Ivanovic: wesnoth-dw should also be added to po/{Makefile.am, CMakeLists.txt}
20100406 19:07:38< icelus> you can see why it's only local that's processed now, because it amounts to making the choice twice
20100406 19:07:49< icelus> and its safer to defer
20100406 19:08:01< icelus> ok i'll look at this some more
20100406 19:08:05< icelus> thanks for that that was useful
20100406 19:08:09< Crab_> icelus: yes. btw, see replay::do_replay_handle
20100406 19:08:22< icelus> yeah i have that instrumented a lot already
20100406 19:08:28< icelus> to figure out the syncrhonisation of the calls
20100406 19:08:41< shadowmaster> stikonas: Ivanovic will take care of that, we already discussed it
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20100406 19:09:23< zookeeper> btw, if you need to impose limitations to make things non-cludgy to do, then it'd be reasonable if [unstore_unit] advance=yes could never pop up the advancement selection mid-event, but only after the event has finished.
20100406 19:09:24< Crab_> icelus: see how , in WML_HANDLER_FUNCTION(message , do_replay_handle is used to 'expect' user input from other side
20100406 19:10:12< zookeeper> but then again, writing the exceptions for that as well as a new key to control the behaviour would be kludgy too...
20100406 19:10:18< Crab_> zookeeper: no, I still hope that things could be fixed on a deeper level :)
20100406 19:10:27< zookeeper> ok, sounds good to me ;)
20100406 19:11:04< Crab_> icelus: 'do_replay_handle(side, "choose");' line (2848 for me)
20100406 19:11:11< Crab_> in src/game_events.cpp
20100406 19:11:12< icelus> yeah i'm looking at it
20100406 19:11:23< icelus> i need to study this a bit more i won't disappear =)
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20100406 19:11:59< Crab_> it looks like almost the thing we need - to pause all further processing except chat messages, and wait till the other side gives us a choice, so we know what to do (how to advance) next
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20100406 19:12:49< CIA-64> shadowmaster * r42026 /trunk/data/campaigns/Dead_Water/scenarios/12_Revenge.cfg: Remove some useless generate_name=yes specs
20100406 19:14:55-!- YogiHH [YogiHH@d097228.adsl.hansenet.de] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100406 19:15:00< Sirp> hi YogiHH 
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20100406 19:15:08< YogiHH> hello
20100406 19:15:52-!- wdwun [~wdwun@130.254.102.12] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100406 19:16:32< Crab_> hi, YogiHH
20100406 19:16:48< shadowmaster> I think DW should be relatively less buggy than DM was when it entered mailine
20100406 19:16:52< shadowmaster> mainline
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20100406 19:20:11< fabi> Ivanovic, Is there anything I need to do for gsoc before saturday?
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20100406 19:22:43< boucman> did you register at google ?
20100406 19:22:43< icelus> Crab_, i think you already knew how to do this =)
20100406 19:22:54< icelus> but yeah this was an interesting bug
20100406 19:23:02< icelus> i think the do_replay_handle thing is the way to go
20100406 19:23:36< icelus> we'll see, i accidentally touched a header file so my system is out of commission for a couple of hours while it rebuilds
20100406 19:23:40< icelus> but this looks promising
20100406 19:24:36< Crab_> icelus: well, this is the thing I know. As I've told you yesterday, I found out why the bug happens. and yes, I know should be the general way that might help to fix it. but, I've got a feeling that there are further issues in there.
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20100406 19:24:49< Crab_> s/should/that should
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20100406 19:25:40< icelus> well there's some weirdness about this network protocol
20100406 19:25:52< icelus> let me rephrase
20100406 19:25:54< Crab_> yes, 'weirdness' it the correct word )
20100406 19:25:58< icelus> its not immediately crystal clear how it works
20100406 19:26:10< icelus> which is something you generally think of as desirable for protocols
20100406 19:26:18< icelus> because their behaviour is so horrid 
20100406 19:26:22< Crab_> it does some funny things with special cases like 'expected advancements', too.
20100406 19:26:41< icelus> yea i looked at that code wondering if it worked properly or not in every situation
20100406 19:28:14< icelus> the big issue is going to be that
20100406 19:28:40< icelus> we're going to have to keep looking through the replay til we get an advancement for this location
20100406 19:28:50< icelus> there's no guarantee its the first one
20100406 19:29:01< icelus> and that in turn means you could hang effectively
20100406 19:29:21< icelus> though i guess its probably not really bad
20100406 19:29:29< icelus> just puts pressure on do_replay_handle
20100406 19:29:33< icelus> to maintain the ui
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20100406 19:30:42< YogiHH> icelus: what bug are you looking at?
20100406 19:31:18< Crab_> wesbot: bug 15560
20100406 19:31:19< wesbot> Bug #15560  Assigned to: Yurii Chernyi <crab>  Status: None  Priority: 7 - High
20100406 19:31:19< icelus> https://gna.org/bugs/?15560
20100406 19:31:22< wesbot> Summary: Dark forecast - Spawning & Sync Errors ("[unstore_unit] advance=true" is not MP-safe)
20100406 19:31:25< wesbot> Original submission: This is my first bug report, bear with me.I've been p
20100406 19:31:28< wesbot> laying the team survival Dark forecast with a friend, both the latest beta (1.7.
20100406 19:31:31< wesbot> URL: https://gna.org/bugs/?15560
20100406 19:31:33< wesbot> Attached file (1st): https://gna.org/bugs/download.php?file_id=8471
20100406 19:31:36< icelus> neat
20100406 19:32:04< Crab_> the title should actually read  '[unstore_unit] advance="yes' is broken in MP' :)
20100406 19:32:24< Crab_> as the DF errors were fixed by zookeeper
20100406 19:32:40< Crab_> by using safer WML than [unstore_unit]
20100406 19:32:55< icelus> yeah i spent absolutely ages last night
20100406 19:33:02< icelus> trying to get df to do it
20100406 19:33:13< icelus> then i downloaded your testcase and it did it immediately
20100406 19:33:32< icelus> but anyway it seems like there's a pattern here
20100406 19:33:38< Crab_> icelus: note that I know of fixes for this bug which fix my simple testcase but don't fix DF testcase.
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20100406 19:33:57< icelus> i can't replicated it in df
20100406 19:33:57< Crab_> yes, fixes involving do_replay_handle :)
20100406 19:34:07< icelus> well but
20100406 19:34:12< icelus> basically what's our model for how this works
20100406 19:34:18< icelus> it seems like it should be
20100406 19:34:25< Crab_> DF has more trickery involved :)
20100406 19:34:28< icelus> a decision that can be made in parallel by all players
20100406 19:34:37< icelus> is made by them all with synced rngs
20100406 19:34:49< icelus> by players i mean clients
20100406 19:34:50< icelus> sorry
20100406 19:35:01< icelus> a decision which involves even potentially human input
20100406 19:35:04< Crab_> no, please take rng out of the picture, as there are cases where player choice is involved.
20100406 19:35:11< icelus> needs a wait 
20100406 19:35:15< icelus> i mean generally
20100406 19:35:17< Crab_> yes, looks like that
20100406 19:35:21< icelus> here potentially the player is involved
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20100406 19:35:23< icelus> so we have this model
20100406 19:35:29< icelus> of waiting for the replay to catch up
20100406 19:35:36< icelus> in the middle of wherever we were
20100406 19:35:49< icelus> the biggest danger i can see is
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20100406 19:36:01< icelus> you've really got multithreaded behaviour
20100406 19:36:04< icelus> on each client now
20100406 19:36:22< icelus> because if the replay starts firing wml reactions
20100406 19:36:24< Crab_> well, it was always such, but the second thread is chat messages
20100406 19:36:25< icelus> you're in trouble
20100406 19:36:31< icelus> no i don't mean real threads
20100406 19:36:38< icelus> i mean things you can understand as separate frames of execution
20100406 19:36:40< icelus> if this makes sense
20100406 19:36:55< icelus> think about what we're doing: we stop parsing and wait for the replay
20100406 19:37:06< icelus> we're frozen in time in the wml processing we were doing
20100406 19:37:15< icelus> if the replay were to ever need to trigger wml processing
20100406 19:37:16-!- orfest [~chatzilla@16.ngu.ac-tel.ru] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100406 19:37:16< Crab_> icelus: yes, but while we wait, we still process user input and chat
20100406 19:37:21< icelus> it would be non-determininstic
20100406 19:37:27< icelus> yeah i;m not worried about that
20100406 19:37:29< icelus> that's fine
20100406 19:37:44< timotei21> hey fabi:)
20100406 19:37:47< zookeeper> maybe i'm missing something, but why do you need to stop and wait for something?
20100406 19:37:48< Crab_> icelus: but well, we're in the replay, so we're in the 'correct' position to ensure that replay doesn't trigger anything except the thing we wait for.
20100406 19:37:58< zookeeper> differently than when the player levels up in a normal manner, that is
20100406 19:38:04< fabi> timotei21, hi
20100406 19:38:11< icelus> because the scripts can't be synced
20100406 19:38:14< timotei21> have some time to look over my proposal? Crab_ already read it, so I think you could look at it, too
20100406 19:38:17< icelus> is the short answer zookeeper
20100406 19:38:22< fabi> Crab_, Do I need to to anything for gsoc?
20100406 19:38:31< icelus> i thought that too but Crab_ was right all along
20100406 19:38:44-!- Zarel [~Zarel@warzone2100/developer/Zarel] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep]
20100406 19:38:51< fabi> Crab_, Like desperately needed stuff in the gsoc web interface?
20100406 19:39:05< timotei21> don't need the mentors to sign up?
20100406 19:39:06-!- mjs-de [~mjs-de@p3EE27711.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100406 19:39:08< Crab_> fabi: I think that if you can see the list of student proposals,then all is ok :)
20100406 19:40:03< icelus> Crab_ are you certain of that behaviour with respect to the replay though?
20100406 19:40:06< boucman> Crab_: should I assign patch 1585 to you ?
20100406 19:40:06< icelus> that's the bit that concerns me
20100406 19:40:11< icelus> because i'm not certain...
20100406 19:40:12< boucman> wesbot: patch 1585
20100406 19:40:12-!- Zarel [~Zarel@warzone2100/developer/Zarel] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100406 19:40:12< wesbot> Patch #1585  Assigned to: None  Status: None  Priority: 1 - Later
20100406 19:40:12< wesbot> Summary: 2 patches for the Eclipse Plugin
20100406 19:40:12< wesbot> Original submission: Here are 2 patches for the eclipse plugin:1) sample cam
20100406 19:40:15< wesbot> paign creator  - file+directory structure2) sample marking feature based on th
20100406 19:40:18< wesbot> URL: https://gna.org/patch/?1585
20100406 19:40:21< wesbot> Attached file (1st): https://gna.org/patch/download.php?file_id=8813
20100406 19:40:25< fabi> Crab_: Hmm, no idea if I can see that. I will be away until the weekend if there is nothing urgent.
20100406 19:40:35< Crab_> boucman: well, you can. esp. if fabi is away...
20100406 19:40:49< boucman> fabi is here :P
20100406 19:40:59< boucman> assigned
20100406 19:41:07< Crab_> fabi: I mean 'does the system allow you to see the list of student proposals? '
20100406 19:41:26< Crab_> fabi: e.g., 'does it properly recognize you as a mentor for Wesnoth  ?'
20100406 19:41:33< Crab_> if it is, then I guess there's nothing to do.
20100406 19:41:54< fabi> Do I need to fix that before the weekend if it is wrong somehow?
20100406 19:42:34< Crab_> fabi: well, I think that it should be ok, and it can be fixed later even if some things are amiss. but, if you can, it'll be better to check it now :)
20100406 19:43:15< fabi> No, can't. Bye all!
20100406 19:43:25< timotei21> oh, ok
20100406 19:43:27< timotei21> bye
20100406 19:43:28< Crab_> fabi: ok, bye :)
20100406 19:43:36-!- fabi [~fabi@88-134-75-110-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
20100406 19:44:03< timotei21> Crab_, i'm investagating now on the way wesnoth starts
20100406 19:44:30< timotei21> for example, at the test menu (for a test scenario) it has some ambiguous things. 
20100406 19:44:38< timotei21> can I improve them?
20100406 19:44:58< Crab_> timotei21: the way wesnoth starts in 'batch mode' is broken :)
20100406 19:44:59< timotei21> I mean, the command line for "data dir" is the "default" argument, which can conflict with others...
20100406 19:45:06< timotei21> yes
20100406 19:45:32< Crab_> timotei21: well, you can solve the 'data dir problem' by using things like -d as the last argument, or by putting . last
20100406 19:45:41< timotei21> aha
20100406 19:45:42< timotei21> ok
20100406 19:46:09< timotei21> btw, did you look over the last patch?
20100406 19:46:26< timotei21> also, do I need to provide more patches for commit access? :D
20100406 19:48:32-!- frank_ [~wdwun@130.254.102.12] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100406 19:50:58-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: GSoC: proposals are to be submitted to Google before 9th April 19:00 UTC. Also, when your wiki page is ready, ask us to review it. | 82 bugs, 262 feature requests, 15 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
20100406 19:51:52< Crab_> timotei21: no, haven't looked at the last patch yet, will do so now
20100406 19:52:21< timotei21> ok, thank you
20100406 19:52:21-!- neoxro_ [~wdwun@130.254.102.12] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds]
20100406 19:52:33< timotei21> I can't belive MSVC is so stupid with big projects
20100406 19:52:44< timotei21> it was my favourite ide, but now it isn't anymore :)
20100406 19:52:46< Crab_> timotei21: some other issues ? 
20100406 19:53:03< timotei21> well, it stops responding from time to time, when going to an object definition
20100406 19:53:08< timotei21> it freezez
20100406 19:53:11< Crab_> ah )
20100406 19:53:22< timotei21> I don't know why... but nvm
20100406 19:53:32< timotei21> what you use on linux for devleoping?
20100406 19:53:33< timotei21> vim?
20100406 19:53:47< Greywhind> i like gedit, myself.
20100406 19:53:59< boucman> timotei21: vim for me, but each dev has his favorite tools
20100406 19:54:10< timotei21> I need something with autcomplete until I'm familliar with the code-base
20100406 19:54:11< Greywhind> i really like having the sidebar with all open files listed
20100406 19:54:24< Crab_> timotei21: I started with vim last year, but switched to emacs closer to end of gsoc :)
20100406 19:54:24< timotei21> and omnicomplete, scans for all files, each time I press CTRL+P
20100406 19:55:01< Crab_> timotei21: the main reason being the slightly easier way to copy-paste the large pieces of code :)))
20100406 19:55:10< timotei21> oh :))
20100406 19:55:11-!- DesertPanther [~Khalid@unaffiliated/desertpanther] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
20100406 19:55:13 * Espreon uses Kate.
20100406 19:55:24< timotei21> yes, you told me aleady esp :P
20100406 19:55:24< Crab_> timotei21: half-joking, but yes, I had to move a lot of old code around :)
20100406 19:55:33< timotei21> but can't use that on windows :(
20100406 19:55:46< Espreon> Yes, you can. :)
20100406 19:55:59< timotei21> really? I searched for it, yesterday :-S
20100406 19:56:13< Espreon> It is possible to install KDE and friends on Windows... but is it worth it to install KDE for an editor? Probably not.
20100406 19:56:24< timotei21> yes:D
20100406 19:56:34< timotei21> does it have auto-complete?
20100406 19:56:40< boucman> i'm pretty sure there is a port for windows of emacs (there is of vim... I use it all the time)
20100406 19:56:46< Espreon> Yeah, but it is a bit shaky.
20100406 19:56:47< shadowmaster> timotei21: not natively, no.
20100406 19:56:52< timotei21> yes, there is emacs for windows too
20100406 19:57:01< timotei21> but I like a bit more vim
20100406 19:57:16< shadowmaster> timotei21: if you like vim, there's gvim for Windows AFAIK
20100406 19:57:35< timotei21> yes shadowmaster, I use it for various editing.
20100406 19:57:50< timotei21> tryed today to add the omnicppcomplete, but doesn't work the way it should
20100406 19:58:02< timotei21> s/tryed/tried
20100406 20:01:09< CIA-64> crab * r42027 / (2 files in 2 dirs): move eclipse plugin to a better place
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20100406 20:23:51< icelus> Crab_ does this do_replay_handle in the message handler actually work though
20100406 20:23:57< icelus> i just need a quick sanity check
20100406 20:24:03< Crab_> icelus: I don't know :)
20100406 20:24:04< icelus> i'm still endlessly compiling for the next hour or so
20100406 20:24:08< icelus> yeah i don't think it should
20100406 20:24:13< icelus> because if you look at the control flow
20100406 20:24:19< Crab_> icelus: you're compiling a debug build ?
20100406 20:24:25< icelus> no i touched a header file
20100406 20:24:31< icelus> my machine is _very_ old =)
20100406 20:24:44< Crab_> icelus: ah, one of magic 'rebuild all' headers :)
20100406 20:24:46< icelus> anyway so if you look at the control flow in do_replay_handle
20100406 20:24:48< icelus> yeah one of those =)
20100406 20:25:00< Crab_> yes, I don't trust that code
20100406 20:25:13< Crab_> btw, start-of-1.9 is the best place to break it :)
20100406 20:25:30< icelus> it looks like replay.cpp:827 is an exit
20100406 20:25:31< icelus> =)
20100406 20:25:39< timotei21> Crab_, I'll stay 30 more minutes, ok? So if you need to tell me something... I'll be here until aprox 22.00-22.10
20100406 20:25:40< icelus> so if you do a wait on a choose
20100406 20:25:44< icelus> doesn't it just bail out there
20100406 20:25:50< pokhbocee> hey everybody
20100406 20:25:57< timotei21> about the patches
20100406 20:25:58< Crab_> timotei21: ok, I think I'll manage before that. thanks.
20100406 20:26:03< icelus> which means it can never return until it runs out of cfg data
20100406 20:26:06< timotei21> hello pokhbocee 
20100406 20:26:19< timotei21> ok Crab_ 
20100406 20:26:24< icelus> i guess it's only if it's expecting advances
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20100406 20:28:09< icelus> oh but choose is only used for advancements =p
20100406 20:28:23-!- Darkas [~quassel@ppp-88-217-110-75.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100406 20:30:37< Crab_> timotei21: you want commit access for further work on eclipse plugin ? what are you next work plans ?
20100406 20:31:01< timotei21> well, right now I'm investigating the ways to start wesnoth, and the wml jit
20100406 20:31:28< timotei21> I don't know when I will come back to eclipse
20100406 20:31:41< timotei21> maybe on thursday/friday
20100406 20:31:55< timotei21> wanting to get the proposal very good first
20100406 20:32:20< Crab_> timotei21: ok. note: you can improve your proposal after you submit it to google, we'll read your wiki page anyway
20100406 20:32:42< timotei21> yes I know... but you won't choose the students on 9?
20100406 20:32:49-!- mordante [~mordante@wesnoth/developer/mordante] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100406 20:32:59< mordante> servus
20100406 20:33:04< timotei21> hello mordante
20100406 20:33:15< mordante> hi timotei21 
20100406 20:33:19< timotei21> oh crab_, so until april 21 you have to decide who goes on GSOC, right?
20100406 20:33:22< timotei21> not until 9 april
20100406 20:33:24< Crab_> timotei21: yes
20100406 20:33:31< timotei21> oh, that's very good then :D
20100406 20:33:37< noy_> mordante: please join #wesnoth-lobbydev
20100406 20:33:37< timotei21> it's gonna be wonderfull
20100406 20:33:51< Crab_> timotei21: yes, more time :)
20100406 20:33:53< timotei21> then, I will work on the eclipse plugin, too
20100406 20:34:08< Crab_> ok
20100406 20:34:28-!- yann [~dwitch@nan92-1-81-57-214-146.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100406 20:35:52< timotei21> I need to upload the xtext projects, too
20100406 20:35:58< mordante> Dakmor, you were looking for me?
20100406 20:36:06< timotei21> I think it's better to do that directly than with a patch, right?
20100406 20:36:44< Crab_> timotei21: yes, the patches are a 'preview' of how you work, and allow you to learn the rules/conventions
20100406 20:37:12< timotei21> I tried to pick up on the C++ style even in the eclipse plugin
20100406 20:37:17-!- DesertPanther [~Khalid@unaffiliated/desertpanther] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100406 20:37:39< pokhbocee> Crab_: did u had time to look my messages in the log
20100406 20:37:46< Darkas> Crab_: hi
20100406 20:37:53< Crab_> hi, pokhbocee
20100406 20:37:56< Crab_> hi, Darkas
20100406 20:37:56< Darkas> I've updated my wiki page
20100406 20:38:01< pokhbocee> hey Crab_
20100406 20:38:09< Crab_> nagbot: darkas ?
20100406 20:38:09< nagbot> darkas : http://wiki.wesnoth.org//SummerOfCodeProposal_Darkas
20100406 20:38:29< Darkas> hey, that's cool ;)
20100406 20:38:50< pokhbocee> ahah i didnt know that :D
20100406 20:38:52< Crab_> Darkas: yes, our little bot-friends do know about you and your wiki page :)
20100406 20:39:15< Darkas> it's basically that I've added the defence strategies from the forum and a time plan in the questionnaire
20100406 20:39:20< Crab_> Darkas: I've read your changes already, yes. and left you a message in the log. have you read it ?
20100406 20:39:34< Darkas> Crab_: no
20100406 20:40:06< Crab_> try to find it, it should be there somewhere :)
20100406 20:40:19< CIA-64> torangan * r42028 /branches/1.8/ (25 files in 25 dirs): hungarian translation update
20100406 20:40:40< shadowmaster> ohh, Torangan's still alive :P
20100406 20:40:42-!- wdwun [~wdwun@130.254.102.12] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100406 20:41:20< Darkas> crab_: I'm still searching for a good way of reading them ;)
20100406 20:41:40< Crab_> Darkas: open them and search for your nickname.
20100406 20:42:08< pokhbocee> ctrl+f Crab_> Darkas
20100406 20:42:17< CIA-64> torangan * r42029 /trunk/ (24 files in 24 dirs): hungarian translation update
20100406 20:43:01< Darkas> Crab_: ok
20100406 20:43:07< Darkas> pokhbocee, thanks ;)#
20100406 20:43:17< pokhbocee> :D ur welcome
20100406 20:43:58< pokhbocee> Crab_: did you look at the log for my message
20100406 20:44:06-!- neoxro_ [~wdwun@130.254.102.12] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds]
20100406 20:44:14< shadowmaster> :3  wget -O - http://wesnoth.debian.net/%23wesnoth-dev-2010-04-06.log | grep shadowmaster
20100406 20:44:55< shadowmaster> (replace shadowmaster with a more useful regex and you've got a powerful log viewer)
20100406 20:45:07< Crab_> shadowmaster: download them all, parse, push to a DB, ask your bot to show a nice report to you :)
20100406 20:45:23< shadowmaster> if I had a bot for that, right.
20100406 20:45:45< Crab_> "master, I heard your name spoken. should I kick the offenders ?"
20100406 20:45:58< shadowmaster> but well, seriously, it's better to have more context.
20100406 20:46:31< shadowmaster> I could be talking about mordante and not necessarily mention his name in every line.
20100406 20:47:36< mordante> I could be talking about shadowmaster and not necessarily mention his name in every line.
20100406 20:47:36< Crab_> pokhbocee: you're talking about "< pokhbocee> Crab_: lua_pushinteger makes the last return type an int. so i cannot assign the return value to a list." ?
20100406 20:48:06< pokhbocee> yes
20100406 20:48:14< pokhbocee> and also i finished the patches too
20100406 20:48:16< Crab_> can you show me some code ?
20100406 20:48:17< Crab_> good
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20100406 20:49:58< Crab_> pokhbocee: I mean, show me the code where  'i cannot assign the return value to a list.' happens
20100406 20:50:20< Crab_> Darkas: you've found the right place in the log ?
20100406 20:50:34< Darkas> Crab_: yes
20100406 20:52:24< timotei> shadowmaster, the grep doesn't work:-?
20100406 20:52:35< timotei> it gets the whole log, no just with timotei in it
20100406 20:52:36-!- timotei is now known as timotei21_away
20100406 20:52:40< boucman> actually afeature for having wesbot keep messages for people that are offline would be great...
20100406 20:52:42-!- timotei21_away is now known as timotei
20100406 20:52:50-!- timotei21 [~timotei21@193.34.191.4] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
20100406 20:52:53-!- timotei is now known as timotei21_away
20100406 20:52:53-!- timotei21_away is now known as timotei21
20100406 20:53:03< Darkas> Crab_: what should that more technical details look like? I don't know what functions are existing out there that I could use (yet)
20100406 20:53:17< shadowmaster> timotei21: *shrug*
20100406 20:53:29< shadowmaster> boucman: there's MemoServ for that
20100406 20:53:29< Crab_> boucman: I think that it can be done as a simple extension for the 'seen' command, e.g. wesbot: seen boucman : this is my message
20100406 20:53:37< shadowmaster> /msg MemoServ help
20100406 20:53:49< shadowmaster> admittedly, it's not useful with unregistered users for obvious reasons
20100406 20:54:21-!- shadowm_laptop [~ignacio@wesnoth/developer/shadowmaster] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal]
20100406 20:54:36< timotei21> grep alone on the file works
20100406 20:54:43< boucman> Crab_: a syntax like wesbot: tell xxx <message>
20100406 20:54:58< boucman> which would have wesbot say the message the next time that person speaks....
20100406 20:55:17< Crab_> boucman: yes, a good idea :)
20100406 20:55:35< timotei21> where are coded the bots?
20100406 20:55:49 * boucman has no idea who is wesbot's master, nowdays...
20100406 20:55:53< timotei21> could we "ditch them"?
20100406 20:55:56< boucman> shikadibot could do it, maybe
20100406 20:56:16< timotei21> no ditch, sorry for the word
20100406 20:56:32< timotei21> something like: make them better
20100406 20:56:45< Crab_> well, I can leave nagbot running after the gsoc as well, and teach him to do it
20100406 20:56:53< timotei21> :D
20100406 20:57:33< boucman> Crab_: sure,
20100406 20:57:59< pokhbocee> Crab_: http://pastebin.com/0VMyXJzv  here is the code
20100406 20:59:49< timotei21> shadowmaster, on windows it's "&" instead of "|"
20100406 21:01:18< Crab_> timotei21: well, I think that it will be a good idea if you improve the eclipse plugin as much as you can, so I think that you should go to gna.org and apply to join to 'wesnoth' group in there, so, after Ivanovic confirms it, you'll be able to commit things to eclipse plugin. For c++ patches, you should use patches.wesnoth.org, at least for the first ones, but it would be better if you commit java-related things directly.
20100406 21:01:19-!- Espreon [~espreon@wesnoth/developer/espreon] has quit [Quit: WRYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!]
20100406 21:01:35< timotei21> ok
20100406 21:01:51< timotei21> any comments to write on there?
20100406 21:02:06< timotei21> any "specific" comments?
20100406 21:02:17< Crab_> timotei21: well, if your gna nickname matches your irc name, all'll be ok :) if it doesn't, just mention your nick
20100406 21:02:23< timotei21> ok
20100406 21:02:57< Crab_> timotei21: then ping Ivanovic about it, and, in a few hours, you'll be able to become one of wesnoth's developers :)
20100406 21:03:04< timotei21> :D
20100406 21:03:06< timotei21> cool
20100406 21:03:07< timotei21> thanks
20100406 21:03:25< Crab_> timotei21: yeah :) you should generate a key to be used with gna, to allow you to commit stuff
20100406 21:03:36< timotei21> ok
20100406 21:03:45< Crab_> 'svn switch' can be used to change your checkout to svn+ssh:// one
20100406 21:03:58< Crab_> and note that I've just moved the eclipse plugin to other location
20100406 21:04:08< timotei21> yes, I've seen that
20100406 21:04:43< pokhbocee> Crab_: btw did u take a look at the patches i submit??
20100406 21:04:44< Crab_> for code outside of utils/eclipse_plugin, submit patches, so we'll be able to see if all is ok with c++ coding style and other such little things :)
20100406 21:04:51< timotei21> yes
20100406 21:07:05< timotei21> ok, I'm leaving
20100406 21:07:11< timotei21> good night everyone
20100406 21:07:15< timotei21> goodbye Crab_ and thanks
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20100406 21:14:12< Crab_> pokhbocee: yes, looked at the patch. it looks ok now, but a few minor things: so far, you need to add you to 'misc contributors' section of about.cfg (till you get commit access, that is), and, try to add is_enemy after the functions which begin on letter 'g' (e.g., in alphabetic order for is_enemy), and,  in      if (foo) {}  "{" should be on the same line as "if"
20100406 21:15:43< Crab_> pokhbocee: but, overrall, it's good, thanks ;)
20100406 21:16:01< Crab_> if you'll fix those little things today I'll commit it today
20100406 21:18:31< pokhbocee> Crab_: i think i added myself to misc contributors.
20100406 21:18:52< pokhbocee> Crab_: 2. sorry about the alphavetical order :D i though i was ordering right ahahahah 
20100406 21:18:54< Crab_> pokhbocee: recheck. seems not.
20100406 21:19:20< Crab_> np, those are little things :)
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20100406 21:20:28< zookeeper> mordante, erm, what's with that village patch on the ML? the village panel has already mentioned the total number of villages for who knows how long.
20100406 21:20:38< zookeeper> so does that actually do something else?
20100406 21:21:03-!- Gambit [~Gambit@pa-67-234-73-7.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
20100406 21:21:05-!- gabba [~gabba@72.0.215.59] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100406 21:21:07< zookeeper> oh, duh, the status table. nevermind.
20100406 21:21:56< gabba> just popping by to say hi between reading two economy chapters
20100406 21:21:59< Crab_> to all gsoc students: if there's anything I've forgotten to do/review/check from any of your proposals, please don't hesitate to ping me.
20100406 21:22:05< Crab_> hi, gabba
20100406 21:22:10< gabba> hey Crab_
20100406 21:22:18< Sirp> hi gabba 
20100406 21:22:26< gabba> hi Sirp
20100406 21:22:46< Crab_> gabba: I've read your latest changes
20100406 21:23:17< gabba> Crab_: yes, ouch. The discussion I linked to was the fiercest criticism of my proposal yet
20100406 21:23:21< pokhbocee> Crab_: im going to class will be back in couple of hours. ill fix those problems.
20100406 21:23:39< Crab_> pokhbocee: ok!
20100406 21:23:39< mordante> zookeeper, ask icelus 
20100406 21:23:48< mordante> hi gabba 
20100406 21:23:50< Ivanovic> re
20100406 21:23:56< gabba> Crab_: but, they did have good points
20100406 21:23:57< pokhbocee> Crab_: and also i couldnt make filtering work for sides and radius at the same time. i noted that as a todo
20100406 21:24:02< Ivanovic> (okay, this happens once you are off for an evening watching a movie...)
20100406 21:24:08< Ivanovic> one after the other:
20100406 21:24:22< mordante> Ivanovic, it's gsoc time ;-)
20100406 21:24:24< Ivanovic> shadowmaster, stikonas: will handle the translation side of DW mainlining "soon"
20100406 21:24:45< gabba> hi mordante
20100406 21:24:46< mordante> no quiet nice evenings ;-)
20100406 21:24:48< Ivanovic> fabi: there is nothing that does require your immediate attention till saturday
20100406 21:25:07< icelus> zookeeper, what are you meant to be asking me? =)
20100406 21:25:11< icelus> about the village thing?
20100406 21:25:14< Ivanovic> timotei21: please make sure to apply for group membership at gna.org, once you have done so i can add you, before this does not work
20100406 21:25:17< icelus> i was just working through the wiki for ideas
20100406 21:25:36< icelus> it's not the best solution maybe but there are no "obvious" options
20100406 21:25:48< icelus> i thought about putting unclaimed in brackets after each village
20100406 21:26:04< icelus> so instead of 2/16 5/16 say you'd have 2 (9) 5 (9)
20100406 21:26:13< icelus> but that requires the header to become Villages (unclaimed)
20100406 21:26:20< icelus> and is still inelegant
20100406 21:26:31< icelus> a better solution might be to add it at the bottom of the status table
20100406 21:26:45< icelus> but there are no elements like that there so far
20100406 21:26:53< icelus> and it was unclear if it was desirable
20100406 21:27:13< icelus> so what's there is just a cheap and easy option that gives most of the benefit i think
20100406 21:27:28< icelus> i'm not attached to it in any sense; it's 5 lines
20100406 21:27:34< icelus> but perhaps its better than what there is right now
20100406 21:27:38< icelus> without forcing any difficult choices
20100406 21:27:49< icelus> to do it properly you'd want someone to spec it out
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20100406 21:28:07< Dakmor> Crab_, At the moment I'm attempting to improve on my c++ knowledge and do an EasyCoding GUI improvement. I don't suppose you have any reference guides handy that would help my learning process?
20100406 21:28:42< Crab_> gabba: yes. btw, /me in particular doesn't care what happens to gotos :)
20100406 21:28:46< Dakmor> I'm not really in a position to be writing my proposal yet until I've got a better understanding of the current GUI and so what GUI2 will properly involve.
20100406 21:29:42< Crab_> Dakmor: no, I don't have. I learned gui2 by looking at code of other simple dialogs, and bugging mordante :)
20100406 21:30:02< Crab_> and it was fairly easy and nice
20100406 21:30:11< gabba> Crab_: yeah, they could stay around as is if people love them so much ;)
20100406 21:30:32< mordante> gabba, do you still have gui questions?
20100406 21:30:51< Crab_> gabba: AI doesn't use them directly anymore, it simply treats them as the 'instructions from wml authors'
20100406 21:30:58< Crab_> Darkas: about ': Crab_: what should that more technical details look like? I don't know what functions are existing out there that I could use (yet)'...
20100406 21:31:45< Crab_> Darkas: I was interesting in knowing the following: will you work within the current 'candidate action' framework, or will your work on creating some other 'stage' for your code to use ?
20100406 21:31:50< mordante> Dakmor, http://wiki.wesnoth.org/GUIToolkit has a lot of info about gui2 and this WIP latex document as well doc/design/gui2.tex (in trunk)
20100406 21:31:51< gabba> mordante: I was mainly wondering about the overall difficulty of the GUI elements, in case I've planned something really hard without knowing it
20100406 21:32:03< CIA-64> ivanovic * r42030 /trunk/utils/wescamp_import: tiny fix to match recent structure of wescamp
20100406 21:32:18< Dakmor> Thanks mordante.
20100406 21:32:18< mordante> gabba, you want to add widgets or dialogs?
20100406 21:32:26< mordante> you're welcome
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20100406 21:32:43< zookeeper> are there any plans yet on when 1.9.0 will happen?
20100406 21:33:10< Crab_> zookeeper: I think that atm efforts will be mainly directed on 1.8.1
20100406 21:33:11< gabba> mordante: Drawing arrows and stuff like that and the map is not really your domain right?
20100406 21:33:19< gabba> mordante: s/and/on
20100406 21:33:21< boucman> gabba: the map display itself is not handled by gui2, gui2 is about dialogs, menus and windows
20100406 21:33:33< Crab_> zookeeper: e.g., 'fix the issues with network lobby'
20100406 21:33:35< mordante> gabba, yes/no I know parts of that, but it's not gui2
20100406 21:33:43< gabba> boucman: ok
20100406 21:34:30-!- noy_ [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20100406 21:34:37< gabba> mordante: alright, then the only gui2-related stuff I will add will be some menu elements, and a dialog to control sharing and receiving planned moves, AFAIR
20100406 21:34:48< CIA-64> ivanovic * r42031 /trunk/utils/wescamp_import: got to search for lua files, too
20100406 21:35:08< mordante> gabba, the menu elements in the main game area are also gui1
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20100406 21:35:25< mordante> you probably only need gui2 for the dialogs you add
20100406 21:35:31< gabba> mordante: hmmm, then that removes the context menus 
20100406 21:35:48< mordante> yes
20100406 21:35:50< gabba> mordante: ok, thanks for clearing things up
20100406 21:35:58< mordante> you're welcome
20100406 21:38:19< gabba> mordante, boucman: did you read the new section I added to my proposal on "gameplay considerations"? (I don't know if you watch the pages as much as Crab_, who seems to read stuff before I save it :P )
20100406 21:38:42< mordante> nagbot, gabba ?
20100406 21:38:49< Crab_> nagbot: gabba ?
20100406 21:38:49< nagbot> gabba : http://wiki.wesnoth.org//GSoC-SpriteSheets_Gabba
20100406 21:38:50< nagbot> gabba : http://wiki.wesnoth.org//GSoC-WesnothWhiteboard_Gabba
20100406 21:38:59< gabba> good nagbot
20100406 21:39:03< Crab_> mordante: it prefers ":" atm.
20100406 21:39:15< mordante> prefers is an understatement ;-)
20100406 21:39:25 * gabba throws a bone to nagbot
20100406 21:39:28< Crab_> gabba: for extra fun, ask nagbot about "?" in private
20100406 21:39:35-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
20100406 21:39:47< boucman> i hadn't, I willl
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20100406 21:39:54< mordante> gabba, which section(s) did you change?
20100406 21:40:04-!- orfest [~chatzilla@16.ngu.ac-tel.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds]
20100406 21:40:06< gabba> http://wiki.wesnoth.org/GSoC-WesnothWhiteboard_Gabba#Gameplay_considerations
20100406 21:40:25< Crab_> mordante: read the history, it can show you the diff
20100406 21:40:47< mordante> too lazy to log in ;-)
20100406 21:41:06< gabba> mordante: I also adjusted stuff all over the place, but the important stuff is there ^
20100406 21:41:07< Crab_> mordante: you can do it without logging in :)
20100406 21:41:43< Dakmor> Crab_, Wow, there are quite a lot of student proposals!
20100406 21:42:11< Crab_> Dakmor: yes, and there'll be even more, as 9th is nearer and nearer..
20100406 21:42:12< gabba> Crab_: ^yeah, good thing I asked '?' that to nagbot in private
20100406 21:42:32< Crab_> gabba: I guess it's shy enough to not try to answer it in a public channel
20100406 21:42:32< CIA-64> ivanovic * r42032 /trunk/ (62 files in 3 dirs): import the Dead Water translations from wescamp (using http://svn.berlios.de/viewcvs/wescamp-i18n/branches/1.8/Dead_Water/ )
20100406 21:43:04< gabba> Crab_: you also gave it feelings? omg
20100406 21:43:22< Crab_> gabba: well, its a bot little bot...
20100406 21:44:01< mordante> gabba, I think doing gotos at the end is not a huge problem, but best ask the MP devs
20100406 21:44:17< boucman> gabba: i just realized... shift is already a shortcut in wesnoth (turbo)
20100406 21:44:58< gabba> mordante: yes
20100406 21:45:11< noy> gabba: I like your response
20100406 21:45:16< gabba> boucman: damn it, shift was such a good shortcut
20100406 21:45:18< noy> to my question
20100406 21:45:23< gabba> noy: hello
20100406 21:45:25< boucman> hehe
20100406 21:45:37< CIA-64> ivanovic * r42033 /trunk/data/ (4 files in 3 dirs): make sure that all textdomains are set correctly (adds the missing markers to some cfg files)
20100406 21:45:40< mordante> gabba, how hard would it be keep to current undo? just in case you misclick
20100406 21:45:44< noy> I've forwarded it to another mp dev, happygrue, who is pretty good at thinking about these issues
20100406 21:46:03< boucman> gabba: you didn't mention my favorit way of doing planning vs real : a toggle-button (with a shortcut to toggle it)
20100406 21:46:09< gabba> boucman: maybe turbo can move, since it's pretty undocumented?
20100406 21:46:17< boucman> is it because there is a good reason, or did it just fall through the cracks ?
20100406 21:46:23< gabba> mordante: not hard, just anti-KISS
20100406 21:46:30< boucman> gabba: it's one of the most heavily used shortcuts
20100406 21:46:30 * Crab_ never used turbo in 2+ years of playing wesnoth
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20100406 21:46:42< Crab_> what does 'turbo' do ?
20100406 21:46:51< Soliton> accelerate animation
20100406 21:46:55< Crab_> ah,  I play at x16 animation speed ):
20100406 21:47:02< Soliton> or decelerate as the case may be.
20100406 21:47:03< gabba> noy: good. Are you around tomorrow to discuss it in more detail? Gotta go back to read my economy manual soon.
20100406 21:47:12< boucman> it's equivalent to toggling the turbo option for as long as the key is pressed
20100406 21:47:29< CIA-64> ivanovic * r42034 /trunk/data/campaigns/Dead_Water/units/Dark_Shape.cfg: the empty string musn't be translateable!!!
20100406 21:47:42< noy> happygrue is probably better placed to assess it... I'm a bit busy organizing the mp lobby response 
20100406 21:47:57< noy> I'll be around to chip in as much as I can gabba 
20100406 21:47:58< gabba> boucman: no, I added it, it's Caps Lock for now
20100406 21:48:00< happygrue> gabba: I'm reading it now, I will have some time tomorrow off and on to talk about it
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20100406 21:48:13< happygrue> noy: I had more time than I thought so I started looking at it ;)
20100406 21:48:19< mordante> gabba, I agree it's a bit un-KISS, but it's nice to have if you mis-click and don't use the delayed execution
20100406 21:48:28< gabba> noy: ok, I'll discuss it with happygrue tomorrow then
20100406 21:48:37< noy> oh thats great, I'd like to be around for that discussion happygrue and gabba 
20100406 21:48:42< happygrue> sure
20100406 21:48:46< noy> but I won't have any points for it
20100406 21:48:48< mordante> Ivanovic, did we also offer svn access to beetlenaut?
20100406 21:48:54< happygrue> I am taking a few notes ;)
20100406 21:48:59< Ivanovic> timotei21: added you to the gna group, happy commiting
20100406 21:49:01< Ivanovic> mordante: no idea
20100406 21:49:09< happygrue> looking interestesting overall though :)
20100406 21:49:25< mordante> esr, did we also offer svn access to beetlenaut?
20100406 21:49:51< esr> mordante: I left thast message on his DW thread.
20100406 21:50:13< mordante> esr, ok thanks
20100406 21:50:47< boucman> gabba: something i'm not sure about your proposal,
20100406 21:50:49< gabba> wow, I find IRC discussions hard to follow when trying to answer several people at the same time
20100406 21:51:00< boucman> you'll get used to it ;)
20100406 21:51:06< mordante> gabba, you'll get used to it
20100406 21:51:06< Crab_> gabba: welcome to multithreaded IRC :)
20100406 21:51:19< gabba> I guess, if you all did I will too
20100406 21:51:34< Crab_> gabba: for extra fun, try doing several other things apart from IRC, at the same time
20100406 21:51:48< boucman> if you plan an attack, are you asked about weapon to use during the planning or during the execution ? it would make sense to ask during planning, but it's not very clear in your proposal
20100406 21:51:52< happygrue> like anyone does anything other than sit here on IRC...
20100406 21:51:56 * happygrue rolls his eyes
20100406 21:52:05< gabba> happygrue: lol
20100406 21:52:41< happygrue> or wait, that's just me :D
20100406 21:53:00< Dakmor> mordante, Are the 3 sub-projects of GUI2 likely to be 3 whole projects worth of work?
20100406 21:53:06< gabba> boucman: during planning... I think ;)
20100406 21:53:19< mordante> gabba, caps lock is a horrible shortcut, you will SHOUT when typing messages to your team mate
20100406 21:53:24< boucman> gabba: well, give it some thought ;)
20100406 21:53:37< gabba> mordante: agh, I knew it wasn't such a good idea
20100406 21:53:56< boucman> if it's not during planning, then execute all would automatically terminate on any attck (which might be a good or bad thing depending on how you imagine it)
20100406 21:53:58< mordante> Dakmor, sorry can't follow you, what do you exactly mean
20100406 21:54:32< Crab_> boucman: yes, execute all would terminate. but, the planned moves will stay in place
20100406 21:54:43< Crab_> boucman: and that's a good thing, actually
20100406 21:55:28< Dakmor> mordante: Well would a single GSoC applicant be expected to be able to complete all 3 sub-projects during GSoC?
20100406 21:55:35< gabba> boucman: yes, it's worth thinking more about it, but... ^what Crab_ said
20100406 21:55:40< boucman> Crab_: agreed, interrupting on attack makes sense, but you could still plan weapon choice
20100406 21:55:41< Dakmor> just trying to get a better idea of what work is involved in my head
20100406 21:56:11< mordante> gabba, maybe keeping 1 undo will be good enough to prevent against accidental actions (I just to work with a mouse that jumped at times and it also happens a lot when playing on my netbook in the train)
20100406 21:56:11< Crab_> boucman: yes, we are going to interrupt 'after' attack
20100406 21:56:26< CIA-64> ivanovic * r42035 /trunk/po/ (55 files in 3 dirs): pot-update for the Dead Water po files only
20100406 21:56:34< mordante> gabba, then I often move to an unwanted hex and like to undo to do what I intended
20100406 21:57:18< gabba> mordante: hmm, yes, but while we're at it why not just keep the whole stack?
20100406 21:57:45< CIA-64> ivanovic * r42036 /trunk/po/wesnoth-dw/de.po: updated German translation
20100406 21:57:54< mordante> will since you think it's un-KISS and I can kind of agree with that
20100406 21:58:18< mordante> but I know how often I misclick on my netbook and save-loading is not the way to go
20100406 21:58:27< gabba> mordante: ok. but the big difference between the two is the amount of code that we have to maintain
20100406 21:58:34< CIA-64> ivanovic * r42037 /website/gettext.wesnoth.org/config.php: add the new textdomain to g.w.o
20100406 21:58:53< boucman> mordante: iiuc you can't really misclick when executing a planned move, since you only validate things
20100406 21:59:02< mordante> gabba, well another solution is also fine by me
20100406 21:59:04< boucman> it would only make sense when directly executing a move
20100406 21:59:15< mordante> I mean that case
20100406 21:59:39< boucman> ok
20100406 21:59:46< gabba> boucman, mordante: well, you could accidentally commit the move of the wrong unit I guess
20100406 22:00:03< mordante> I was halfway typing that ;-)
20100406 22:00:08< gabba> mordante: heh
20100406 22:00:31< boucman> gabba: highlighting the arrow when mousing over a unit could be nice (though it's an interface detail)
20100406 22:00:45< gabba> boucman: already in :)
20100406 22:00:51< boucman> k
20100406 22:01:03< gabba> http://wiki.wesnoth.org/GSoC-WesnothWhiteboard_Gabba#Highlight_planned_path_on_select_or_mouseover
20100406 22:01:56< gabba> mordante: for immediate moves, they're supposed to act like when you don't have delay shroud updates, so misclicks act the same way
20100406 22:02:16< CIA-64> ivanovic * r42038 /trunk/po/wesnoth-dw/CMakeLists.txt: add missing CMakeLists.txt file
20100406 22:02:21< mordante> Dakmor, yes all three sub projects are supposed to be done during the summer
20100406 22:02:23< noy> oh gabba 
20100406 22:02:26< noy> change the name
20100406 22:02:52< noy> I've shown it to a couple of people and they were confused about what you titled it and what they were reading
20100406 22:02:57< gabba> mordante: for confirming planned moves, I guess I could force you to select the unit or only confirm move #1, that would avoid misclicks.... dunno
20100406 22:03:16< gabba> noy: ah, good to know. Do you have any suggestion for the name?
20100406 22:03:39< gabba> or does anybody else have a suggestion to replace the name "whiteboard" ?
20100406 22:04:17< Soliton> planning mode?
20100406 22:04:20< noy> streamlining interface behavior
20100406 22:04:24< mordante> gabba, not sure whether that's a good solution, but maybe we need to think about it
20100406 22:04:25< zookeeper> gabba, the main problem with removing the old undo stack system is that then i'm effectively forced to use move-planning when playing a fogless single-player scenario
20100406 22:04:40 * Soliton hasn't really read the proposal.
20100406 22:04:43< noy> Soliton: its not even a planning mode persay... its going to be the default part of the game
20100406 22:04:48< zookeeper> i'm not sure if that's a problem. maybe it's not a lot of extra clicking.
20100406 22:05:09< mordante> noy, but I think that name covers the idea better
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20100406 22:05:38< zookeeper> gabba, the main problem from the user's point of view, that is
20100406 22:05:40< gabba> zookeeper: true, it could be unwanted, but for trivial moves it only adds one click
20100406 22:05:49< Dakmor> mordante: Okay thanks. I'm trying to decide whether or not I'm going to be able to learn enough in time for my application. I haven't really got any significant experience with C++ and still have a lot of other unrelated university deadlines that I need to consider and so can't really take an entire week out for learning C++.
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20100406 22:06:41< mordante> Dakmor, ok
20100406 22:07:37< gabba> Soliton: well, you're gonna be confused if you don't read the proposal ;) . But overall I want to add a system to plan moves, and when it's on you're in "planning mode", when it's off you're in "normal mode"
20100406 22:08:18< Soliton> gabba: well, seems for not reading it my name suggestion wasn't all bad. ;-)
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20100406 22:08:57< gabba> noy: I don't like "streamlining interface behavior", I doesn't convey the main benefit which is collaborating with allies
20100406 22:09:05< gabba> Soliton: ah, it was a name suggestion :P
20100406 22:09:31< gabba> Soliton: I understood that as "wtf is planning mode?"
20100406 22:09:37< noy> gabba: you're changing the entire interface behavior
20100406 22:09:58< noy> Allied collaborative planning is just a side product
20100406 22:10:08< zookeeper> gabba, have you played northern rebirth?
20100406 22:10:09< noy> so I'd much rather you detail that aspect of the proposal first.
20100406 22:10:22< gabba> noy: sure, but it's not what I'd described as streamlining; it would imply I'm just taking existing stuff and making it leaner and easier to use
20100406 22:10:34< gabba> noy: s/described/describe
20100406 22:10:42< gabba> zookeeper: nope
20100406 22:11:05< gabba> noy: do you like "planning mode" as a title?
20100406 22:11:07< mordante> I'm off night
20100406 22:11:13< gabba> night mordante
20100406 22:11:24< Crab_> btw, about undo code - we can keep undo, it's lesser evil compared to DSU, but we'll need to rework it anyway in 1.9
20100406 22:11:33< noy> But thats what you're doing gabba
20100406 22:11:41< zookeeper> gabba, well, that was my first thought of a potential problem example...presumably it's common to be using several dozen units at the same time there, so an extra click to do a move could get rather irritating
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20100406 22:12:19< Crab_> zookeeper: well, there's no reason to use the planning mode if you don't want to plan aheed and click a few more times , isn't it ?
20100406 22:12:31< gabba> zookeeper: I meant an extra click to confirm 10 moves (for instance)
20100406 22:12:40< boucman> gabba: use a simple name like "planning mode" the main audience for your wiki page are the wesnoth dev, and we know the interface, the name just needs to be "not confusing" precision isn't really important
20100406 22:12:45< Ivanovic> everyone please check that things work correctly regarding translations and the new campaign in trunk
20100406 22:12:52< zookeeper> Crab_, but then you lose the ability to undo
20100406 22:12:54< Ivanovic> i *think* everything should be there but am not 100% sure
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20100406 22:12:59< noy> gabba: since you're suggesting that its the "Default" behavior its not planning mode
20100406 22:13:04< zookeeper> gabba, right, true
20100406 22:13:17< Crab_> zookeeper: why ? we can keep undos, they can be made to work.
20100406 22:13:17< noy> adding an execution button means its a change. 
20100406 22:13:33< noy>  Altering gameplay interface behavior is better
20100406 22:13:37< Crab_> zookeeper: undos become ugly only if we add delayed shroud updates, which we want to kill.
20100406 22:13:48< zookeeper> Crab_, well, i meant if we wouldn't have regular undo anymore, which i thought was gabbas idea
20100406 22:14:10< Crab_> zookeeper: I think that we can keep the undos, np with that. it's DSU which is the greater evil
20100406 22:14:10< zookeeper> but sure, if we still keep the old undo (just without DSU) then that sounds perfect to me
20100406 22:14:13< gabba> noy: yeah, but then I would be naming my project from one of it's (admittedly big) side effects -- and what if after all planning mode is not the default, do I need to change the title again?
20100406 22:14:41< zookeeper> Crab_, however, how does allowing undo combine with the allied planning..?
20100406 22:14:41< noy> Well its just more accurate right now
20100406 22:14:54< zookeeper> that is, all that network stuff
20100406 22:15:07< noy> gabba: I think you don't get it, I really don't care much about its MP side effects
20100406 22:15:24< Crab_> zookeeper: undos are for actually executed moves, planning is for moves which are not yet executed
20100406 22:15:25< noy> What you're proposing is a major change to ALL interface behavior
20100406 22:15:35< noy> That needs to be iron clad. 
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20100406 22:16:08< Soliton> a new interface mode makes that pretty clear to me.
20100406 22:16:10< noy> if the mp sharing aspect wasn't included, but the interface was, That is far more valuable to me
20100406 22:16:21< noy> you can bin the whole mp aspect and alot of us wouldn't care
20100406 22:16:22< Crab_> zookeeper: the main problems with undo+DSU is with 'on losing the undo stack in DSU mode, you must unwind it and replay shroud data, which can fire sighted events and do other things, plus, undo stack unwind happens after moveto events are played, so there are things which can go boom'
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20100406 22:16:35< zookeeper> Crab_, ah, hmm...so my ally sees my plans immediately, but if i execute one planned move which is undoable, then they don't see that until it becomes non-undoable
20100406 22:16:35< Crab_> zookeeper: if we drop DSU, undos become relatively harmless
20100406 22:17:11< Crab_> zookeeper: yes, we can make it this way. note that they can be still made to see it via 'planning screen'.
20100406 22:17:13< gabba> noy: hmm. At first you seemed rather hostile to changing the interface at all, but now you seem to perceive the proposed changes as useful in a wider context
20100406 22:17:35< noy> Yes, because I've considered it more. 
20100406 22:17:43< noy> If it doesn't change gameplay significantly then I don't care
20100406 22:17:53< noy> Or I should say I'm less concerned with it
20100406 22:18:09< noy> if it improves the interface by which gameplay is implemented then its a plus
20100406 22:18:17< Soliton> it shouldn't change gameplay at all.
20100406 22:18:18< Crab_> noy ,zookeeper: so, as undos are useful, especially if there is no fog, I suggest that we keep them, making the changes less 'disturbing'
20100406 22:18:25< gabba> noy: I think I need a title that conveys both the MP and interface benefits then, because different people will tend to like different aspects of the proposal
20100406 22:18:28< noy> Soliton: yeah thats my point
20100406 22:18:39< noy> gabba: the mp interface is a minor point
20100406 22:18:43< Soliton> well, is there some aspect to it that does?
20100406 22:18:58< noy> gabba: I'd just drop it entirely
20100406 22:18:58< Crab_> Soliton: well, note that via the new interface, the player would be able to see the %ctk changes of attacking a single enemy with multiple units.
20100406 22:19:01< noy> gabba: in the tile
20100406 22:19:03< noy> title
20100406 22:19:28< Crab_> Soliton: since he'll be able to plan several attacks before doing them
20100406 22:19:33< Soliton> Crab_: neat but i wouldn't call that a gameplay change.
20100406 22:19:42< noy> Soliton: I can't see that there will be... though I'm not entirely sure if there will be. 
20100406 22:19:45< gabba> noy: a minor point for you, but for others it's the main attraction
20100406 22:19:50< Soliton> ok.
20100406 22:20:16< noy> Soliton: do you consider the ability to share mp moves a minor point compared to the overall effect it will have on the interface?
20100406 22:20:37< noy> Soliton: of this proposal
20100406 22:20:43< boucman> noy: I do :P
20100406 22:20:48< Soliton> noy: i haven't really read the propoasl but it could well be from what i heard so far.
20100406 22:20:55< noy> gabba: I think its clear
20100406 22:22:03< Soliton> from what i gathered so far it's a nicer planning mode than undo+DSU now.
20100406 22:22:07< zookeeper> well, the good thing is that in the end, you don't need it to have a name :p the tutorial just needs to explain how to "plan and execute moves".
20100406 22:22:08< boucman> as far as "bulletproofing" the concept, I think the overall idea is sane, and that the single user interface is planned for mid-term evaluation, so if there are adjustements to do, we could always play with the concept and fix before the end of gsoc
20100406 22:22:19< gabba> noy: you keep trying to define the project from it's effects rather than from its driving purpose, but if you all agree about this approach I won't fight you...
20100406 22:22:23< noy> gabba: The interface change is a major change: adding better vision sharing between mp players, the ability to check multiple ctks and other issues are benefits of the overall change. 
20100406 22:22:56< zookeeper> the biggest drawback to the whole idea - now that losing any undo capabilities presumably won't be an issue - would appear to be that it's going to be a lot more complicated for a newbie to learn
20100406 22:23:00< noy> gabba: no I see the interface change as a major change that enables other functionalities to be included
20100406 22:23:27< Crab_> zookeeper: why ? there's always 'newbie mode' with no planning  at all.
20100406 22:23:31< Crab_> zookeeper: just with undos
20100406 22:23:35< noy> Crab_: will there be?
20100406 22:23:38< Soliton> zookeeper: that's why i wouldn't have thought it'd be default.
20100406 22:23:42< noy> I was under the impression that there wasn't
20100406 22:23:51< Crab_> gabba: ^ can you clarify ?
20100406 22:24:00< boucman> if we see undos arn't taht usefull, i'm all for removing them, but we'll only see by trying
20100406 22:24:09< zookeeper> Crab_, well, sure, if it's off by default. but it's still going to be such a integral part of the UI that it needs to be explained to the player in a tutorial.
20100406 22:24:21< gabba> noy: alright, I need to rewire my brain again then :P -- This project changed form so many times it's not funny
20100406 22:24:22 * Soliton is pretty sure undos are very useful.
20100406 22:24:28< noy> I think it should be the default. 
20100406 22:24:28< Crab_> zookeeper: the tutorial needs some love anyway :)
20100406 22:24:42< gabba> Crab_: I do want to get rid of undos, if possible
20100406 22:24:44 * Crab_ is for planning mode being the default, too.
20100406 22:24:46< zookeeper> it's basically the old system (without DSU - but that's not explained anywhere except in a tip of a day anyway, IIRC) _and_ a completely new planning system on top of it
20100406 22:24:58< Crab_> gabba: why ? undos are harmless, imo
20100406 22:25:08< Crab_> gabba: if we kill DSU, that is.
20100406 22:25:20< gabba> planning mode should be intuitive for newbies: just click, see the arrow, learn the key to confirm and you're all set
20100406 22:25:22< noy> See the interface change is the core for alot of different changes that can be included. MP vision sharing can't occur without that change.
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20100406 22:25:33< noy> gabba: it doesn't really change your proposal
20100406 22:25:44< Rigor> ah more chat here :D
20100406 22:25:46< Rigor> hi
20100406 22:25:52< Crab_> gabba: but note that that any 'sighted' event will invalidate undos if it modifies the game state
20100406 22:26:00< noy> Rigor: this isn't a chatting place
20100406 22:26:02< noy> its for development
20100406 22:26:13< Rigor> yes but u do it through chatting
20100406 22:26:31< gabba> Crab_: KISS would be the reason, and undos are not very user-friendly (cf. what I wrote in the new section)
20100406 22:26:37< zookeeper> maybe the newbie isn't required to know and use the planning mode to play, but then there's a pretty major part of the interface which is hard for newbies to understand
20100406 22:26:43< noy> great, its not for idle chatting, its restricted to development conversation. 
20100406 22:26:44< Crab_> gabba: well, what's unkiss about undos ?
20100406 22:26:56< Rigor> i know that 
20100406 22:27:03< Crab_> gabba: e.g., if you don't know the hotkey for them, you'll not notice them :)
20100406 22:27:44< Soliton> nagbot: gabba?
20100406 22:27:45< nagbot> gabba : http://wiki.wesnoth.org//GSoC-SpriteSheets_Gabba
20100406 22:27:46< nagbot> gabba : http://wiki.wesnoth.org//GSoC-WesnothWhiteboard_Gabba
20100406 22:27:47< gabba> noy: true, it doesn't really change it, but to explain what I was saying: the motto or defining purpose does affect the way I think about it, as well as my motivation
20100406 22:28:16< noy> gabba: all I'm saying is that you need to concentrate on getting the initial functionality for this system down pat. 
20100406 22:28:39< Crab_> noy: well, the MP-related things are only in the second part of the project, according to timeline
20100406 22:28:54< noy> It will affect how every individual plays this game... from sp to mp
20100406 22:28:55< Crab_> noy: so, the first deliverables are in the interface/engine, not network code
20100406 22:29:03< noy> Crab_: thats my point
20100406 22:29:18< boucman> i'm not sure what you're discussing anymore at this point :p
20100406 22:29:43< noy> but that first part needs to be iron clad... that affects 100% of all wesnoth games played. 
20100406 22:29:51< Crab_> noy: yes, I agree
20100406 22:29:53< noy> mp sharing may involve only 20% of all games payed
20100406 22:30:07< Crab_> and mp sharing is useless if it's buggy 
20100406 22:30:10< noy> gabba: don't get me wrong, I want to see the mp change
20100406 22:30:19< gabba> boucman: I'm discussing the name with noy, removing undos or not with Crab_, and maybe something else I'm not aware of simultaneously :)
20100406 22:30:20< boucman> noy: did you see my remark about "bulletproofing" ? do you agree ?
20100406 22:30:50< noy> I just read it now
20100406 22:30:50< noy> yes
20100406 22:30:55< boucman> gabba: that's all part of our GSoC intensive training program :P
20100406 22:31:14< boucman> it applies to undo too, btw...
20100406 22:31:33< zookeeper> gabba, i'll go to bed and reduce the traffic a bit ;)
20100406 22:31:43< gabba> noy: I agree with all your points and the priorities you define; implementation wise that's where I'm heading anyways
20100406 22:32:07< gabba> zookeeper: well it's all fun. But 'night :)
20100406 22:32:11< noy> gabba: I'd even say that you should just propose that you spend the entire time on the interface
20100406 22:32:12< nagbot> Time for a small public service announcement
20100406 22:32:13< nagbot> An announcement for ALL Google Summer of Code Students:
20100406 22:32:14< nagbot> Register your proposal with Google
20100406 22:32:15< nagbot> http://socghop.appspot.com/gsoc/student/apply/google/gsoc2010
20100406 22:32:16< nagbot> The deadline for the application is friday, april 9th, at 19:00 UTC (12:00 PST)
20100406 22:32:17< nagbot> Everyone not enlisted in the google tracker at that time will have *no* chance to participate with Wesnoth as part of Summer of Code 2010, no matter how good your proposal in the wiki is or *whatever*
20100406 22:32:18< nagbot> We can select ONLY people listed there!
20100406 22:32:19< nagbot> Please submit patches and prototypes so we can see your ideas in action. 
20100406 22:32:20< nagbot> Talk about your ideas on the IRC
20100406 22:32:30-!- zookeeper [~l@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has quit []
20100406 22:32:34< noy> gabba: and add mp functionality as a secondary point
20100406 22:32:47< noy> that you may or may not achieve
20100406 22:33:09< icelus> Crab_, do yo understand how the replay stuff works
20100406 22:33:18< Crab_> icelus: 'partially'
20100406 22:33:20< icelus> because i'm still struggling to work this out =p
20100406 22:33:23< icelus> yeah i feel the same
20100406 22:33:32< noy> because I'd say that this is SUCH a massive change (probably one of the most significant since the start of wesnoth), that it needs to be bulletproofed
20100406 22:33:37< icelus> so the reason that fix you suggested doesn't work out of the box
20100406 22:33:41< Crab_> noy: and playtested
20100406 22:33:52< noy> Your chances of getting a positive assessment overall will be better
20100406 22:33:53< icelus> is that it happens before a replay has started
20100406 22:33:53< boucman> i'd tend to agree that i'd rather have a very good sp implemetation rather than a half baked mp one, but let's plan for both and change if we realize at mid-term that it's not going to happen...
20100406 22:34:24< Crab_> icelus: I was debugging things by putting [inspect] tags just before and after the [unstore_unit]
20100406 22:34:28< noy> gabba: and let me say now that I really want to encorage you to do this
20100406 22:34:30< Crab_> icelus: and adding logs to replay code
20100406 22:34:37< noy> because its going to be a massive benefit to the game
20100406 22:34:43< Crab_> icelus: the advancement things/choices came in, but 'too late'
20100406 22:34:54< gabba> noy: I think boucman's approach is reasonable: at mid-term we can evaluate if I should focus on improving the interface, or if it's good enough to start implementing the network part
20100406 22:34:56< icelus> Crab_, right that's what i see too
20100406 22:35:03< gabba> noy: thanks
20100406 22:35:09< icelus> Crab_, basically, there is no active replay data at that point
20100406 22:35:18< Crab_> icelus: I suspect that the replay code is inherently buggy wrt this
20100406 22:35:32< Crab_> icelus: maybe we should actively send something from the other side ?
20100406 22:35:41< icelus> Crab_, really the question for me is the message processor
20100406 22:35:41< gabba> noy: I'll add a note to the post-mid-term section to that effect
20100406 22:35:53< Crab_> icelus: e.g, host2 lockup in wait, and host1 should send the choice
20100406 22:35:58< noy> gabba: well you need to set milestones by which we assess the success of the project. 
20100406 22:36:08< icelus> Crab_, so WML_HANDLER_FUNCTION(message, ...) is the only user of this do_replay_handle
20100406 22:36:19< icelus> and both uses occur within 10 lines
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20100406 22:36:28< icelus> the question is, what is it really trying to do and why
20100406 22:36:38< icelus> it seems to be that you have message boxes that can be fired by wml
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20100406 22:36:48< gabba> noy: the mid-term milestone is currently 'functional single-player whiteboard'
20100406 22:36:50< icelus> and during a replay these are suppressed
20100406 22:36:52< Crab_> icelus: yes, where a player can choose one of several things
20100406 22:36:56< icelus> right
20100406 22:37:12< noy> gabba: sure...
20100406 22:37:24< icelus> but the code that's there just looks wrong to me, which is why i was looking for clarification...
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20100406 22:37:28< icelus> for example
20100406 22:37:42< Crab_> icelus: if i'd got some time, I'd rewritten that dawn thing (do_replay_handle)
20100406 22:38:16< noy> gabba: that sounds good. The post mid term should be aimed at bug fixing and possibly adding in mp functionality
20100406 22:38:24< Crab_> icelus: note that there's a 3rd usage of it, in do_replay
20100406 22:38:49< gabba> noy: no problem, that's a minor adjustment to the calendar
20100406 22:38:52< icelus> Crab, right but that doesn't use the expect semantics so it's kind of different
20100406 22:39:04< icelus> also the existing expects look wrong to me
20100406 22:39:07< noy> trust me, we'll playtest the **** out of it
20100406 22:39:11< Crab_> icelus: to me, too
20100406 22:39:18< Crab_> noy: good :)
20100406 22:39:25< icelus> the first waits for "choose" which i don't think can ever return at the correct time
20100406 22:39:30< gabba> Crab_: so yeah, I was saying that undos are not user-friendly, because it's hard to discover how they really work
20100406 22:39:37< icelus> the second waits for "input" which can only happen as a fake injection by the look of it?
20100406 22:39:40< shadowmaster> timotei21: I really doubt Windows uses & instead of |
20100406 22:39:45< icelus> like it only exists to be waited on in that place
20100406 22:39:48< icelus> which is pretty ugly
20100406 22:39:55< shadowmaster> (ever heard of dir | more ?)
20100406 22:40:09< gabba> Crab_: why do you suddenly lose the undo stack? The game doesn't tell you, and reasons "make sense" (after a while) but vary widely
20100406 22:40:44< Crab_> gabba: because current undos are 'soft' undos, which ca be rewinded back only if WML state hasn't changed
20100406 22:40:55< gabba> Crab_: you don't even know you can't undo until you get to the menu to try it
20100406 22:40:56< Crab_> they don't contain a copy/diff of the gamestate
20100406 22:41:00< Crab_> gabba: yes. 
20100406 22:41:28< gabba> Crab_: I know the technical reasons, but for the end user it's a different story
20100406 22:41:45< Crab_> gabba: btw, we can do a 'hard undo' which'll work in the presense of wml events, but it'll actually be a quicksave/quickload thing :)
20100406 22:42:17< gabba> Crab_: of course, that almost became my project :)
20100406 22:42:25< Crab_> gabba: so, I'd prefer undos to stay as they are now :)
20100406 22:42:32< boucman> gabba: the general "philosophy" of undo is that you can't undo random actions
20100406 22:43:04< gabba> Crab_: so maybe we have to choose between keeping undos and improving them seriously, or deprecating them.
20100406 22:43:13< boucman> the problem is that they can take place in all sort of places that are hard to describe (like undoing undead recruit but not other recruits because undeads don't have traits)
20100406 22:43:19< Crab_> gabba: I'd say 'keep them as they are now, concentrate on your project'
20100406 22:43:30 * boucman agrees with Crab_
20100406 22:43:47< boucman> and if whiteboard is good enough, drop them eventually
20100406 22:43:50 * noy also agrees with crab
20100406 22:44:04 * gabba agrees with boucman and noy and therefore with Crab_
20100406 22:44:10 * shadowmaster agrees with Crab_ 
20100406 22:44:26< boucman> unanimity on #wesnoth-dev, yay
20100406 22:44:35< Crab_> and are agreements undoable :)) ?
20100406 22:44:39 * gabba opens a champagne bottle to celebrate this great agreement moment
20100406 22:45:06< shadowmaster> Crab_: well, if you give me a time machine I can throw a rock at you just in the right moment so we don't have anyone to agree with? :)
20100406 22:45:08< boucman> Crab_: dunno, was it a random event ? :)
20100406 22:45:08< Crab_> probably not. openiing champagne unvalidates the undo stack.
20100406 22:45:15< gabba> Crab_: no, but you can plan them :P
20100406 22:45:33< Crab_> shadowmaster: you'd have to hunt out for nagbot as well :)
20100406 22:46:05< pokhbocee> Crab_: you havent commented on this: http://pastebin.com/0VMyXJzv the problem was the return type is integer
20100406 22:46:20< noy> okay I'm logging off
20100406 22:46:22< Crab_> pokhbocee: ok, sorry, I'll take a look at it now
20100406 22:46:24< gabba> well, my economy manual looks neglected, I'd better take care of it
20100406 22:46:36< gabba> I'm off too, bye everybody
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20100406 22:47:49< pokhbocee> Crab_: about adding my name did you check the end of the file https://gna.org/patch/download.php?file_id=8807
20100406 22:48:03< pokhbocee> Crab_: starting from line 68
20100406 22:48:37< Crab_> pokhbocee: there are multiple sections in about.cfg file
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20100406 22:49:13< pokhbocee> Crab_: oops :D ok ill fix it
20100406 22:49:18< Crab_> pokhbocee: till you gain commit access, the 'misc. contributors' section is a place to put the information.
20100406 22:49:53< Crab_> pokhbocee: only after then (usually, as first commit,  but I was lazy and only done that in 5+ months after gaining commit access), you put into programmers section.
20100406 22:50:27-!- mordante [~mordante@wesnoth/developer/mordante] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100406 22:50:39< mordante> servus just back shortly
20100406 22:50:49< pokhbocee> Crab_: i didnt know that. im sorry ill fix it right now
20100406 22:50:51< mordante> Ivanovic, there might be a fix for the SDL issue http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=565788#19
20100406 22:51:09< mordante> Ivanovic, maybe I can test it tomorrow, not sure
20100406 22:51:36< icelus> Crab_, when you said earlier you were worried about the expected advancements stuff
20100406 22:52:03< mordante> off again
20100406 22:52:05< boucman> mordante: we should point the sdl guys to this :)
20100406 22:52:07< icelus> Crab_, are you seeing this issue where if it runs out of replay actions in between "advance" and "choose" it will simply lose the advance
20100406 22:52:11< Ivanovic> mordante: if it does work, don't forget to report it upstream
20100406 22:52:13< Ivanovic> mordante: http://bugzilla.libsdl.org/show_bug.cgi?id=894
20100406 22:52:19< mordante> boucman, yes but I want to test it first
20100406 22:52:41< Crab_> icelus: about 'expecting advancement'  - the control flow looked somewhat glitchy for me.
20100406 22:53:11< mordante> Ivanovic, yes but let's test first
20100406 22:53:17-!- wdwun [~wdwun@130.254.102.12] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds]
20100406 22:53:26< mordante> and after that hope Ubuntu will also accept the patch...
20100406 22:53:30< icelus> Crab_, its definitely ugly, but the expected path looks ok doesn't it: "advance" -> "choose" with any number of elements interposed between them
20100406 22:53:30-!- Zarel [~Zarel@warzone2100/developer/Zarel] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep]
20100406 22:53:42< Crab_> icelus: I don't investigate this issue atm, so I cannot say about 'the issue where if it runs out of replay actions in between "advance" and "choose"' atm, sorry. I was noticing weird things when I tried various ways to fix it.
20100406 22:53:53< icelus> Crab_, but if it went say "advance" ... no network packets arrive for a while, then "choose" it would have a trouble
20100406 22:53:57< mordante> bye
20100406 22:54:06-!- mordante [~mordante@wesnoth/developer/mordante] has quit [Client Quit]
20100406 22:54:20< icelus> Crab_, i don't know that it happens i was just studying it i thought that might be what you noticed
20100406 22:54:23< icelus> anyway thanks
20100406 22:54:53< Crab_> icelus: ok. please ping me if you fix the simpler case, I'll try with old DF.
20100406 22:55:10< icelus> Crab_, will do
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20100406 22:58:14< Crab_> pokhbocee: well, for start (apart from things like 'you leak memory as you don't free the map locations array), is you told lua that you returned one argument.
20100406 22:58:31< Crab_> pokhbocee: why not 'return 12' ?
20100406 22:58:50-!- orfest [~chatzilla@16.ngu.ac-tel.ru] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100406 23:01:21< pokhbocee> Crab_: hmm ill try to find how to do it
20100406 23:01:35< Crab_> pokhbocee: well, you should return the number of your return values.
20100406 23:01:42< Crab_> pokhbocee: if you put 12 of them on the stack...
20100406 23:01:58-!- endercoaster [~endercoas@132.161.243.60] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100406 23:03:32< pokhbocee> Crab_:ohhhh i see ok thank you
20100406 23:03:44-!- orfest [~chatzilla@16.ngu.ac-tel.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
20100406 23:04:19< Soliton> ilor: i believe your presence in #wesnoth-lobbydev would be appreciated.
20100406 23:04:27< pokhbocee> Crab_: what about filtering of both side and radius? when i combined both some problems occur
20100406 23:04:40< Crab_> pokhbocee: show me that suf
20100406 23:04:48< pokhbocee> ok
20100406 23:05:25-!- Blarumyrran [~Blarumyrr@81-20-159-197.levira.ee] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100406 23:06:29< Crab_> pokhbocee: also note that the error handling in some functions can be better. see how/why error_call_destructor jumps are used in src/scripting/lua.cpp
20100406 23:08:14< pokhbocee> Crab_: about ur comment on my patch ( about if statement). i normally put the bracket as same line as method but all other brackets come after functions or statements 
20100406 23:08:29< pokhbocee> Crab_: which one should i do?
20100406 23:09:16< ilor> Soliton: just read the relevant email
20100406 23:09:57< Soliton> ilor: ah, i haven't. :-P
20100406 23:10:28< Crab_> pokhbocee: use the same style as the majority of wesnoth code uses
20100406 23:10:47< Crab_> pokhbocee: e.g., 'for () {' , 'if () {'
20100406 23:11:17< pokhbocee> Crab_: it my preference too but lua.cpp is not like that
20100406 23:11:47< pokhbocee> Crab_: do you mean by wesnoth code the specific file or overall code
20100406 23:11:52< Crab_> overall
20100406 23:12:01< pokhbocee> oh ok. got it
20100406 23:12:09-!- orfest [~chatzilla@16.ngu.ac-tel.ru] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100406 23:12:58< Crab_> pokhbocee: and yes, you're right about lua.cpp being a little different
20100406 23:13:04< Soliton> it'd be great to get some code formatting tool to automatically enforce consistent style on some syntax and run that occasionally.
20100406 23:13:28< Crab_> Soliton: but everyone needs to be warned before that, or there'll be some merging fun
20100406 23:14:26< Soliton> yes, initial run needs some consideration.
20100406 23:16:54-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100406 23:21:07< pokhbocee> Crab_: here is the problem about filtering http://pastebin.com/ZCVvx5p0
20100406 23:21:19< Crab_> ok
20100406 23:23:17< Crab_> pokhbocee: try this in wml first
20100406 23:23:32< Crab_> pokhbocee: e.g., make a filter which'll work correctly, in wml
20100406 23:24:07< Crab_> pokhbocee: e.g. in a test scenario, make a dummy event which is triggered by right-click menu, and, say, kills all units of side 1 in range
20100406 23:24:30< Crab_> pokhbocee: most likely, the problem is with {}
20100406 23:25:59-!- orfest [~chatzilla@16.ngu.ac-tel.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
20100406 23:25:59< Crab_> pokhbocee: also, try multi-line notation
20100406 23:26:06< Crab_> pokhbocee: like http://wesnoth.pastebin.com/n3taKEy2
20100406 23:26:15< pokhbocee> Crab_: that what i was thinking and tried various combinations of brackets. most of em give some errors this works without error but doesnt give the expected output
20100406 23:26:21< pokhbocee> Crab_: ok ill try it now
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20100406 23:27:23< Crab_> pokhbocee: you can use wesnoth.set_variable and :inspect to verify your work
20100406 23:27:41< Crab_> pokhbocee: e.g. you can see if the wml config looks sane by saving it to a variable and inspecting it
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20100406 23:28:55< pokhbocee> Crab_: about the adjacent locations, returning 12 doesnt work. i think i need to specify output is a list-table
20100406 23:29:15< Crab_> as you wish. but then return a table.
20100406 23:29:33-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100406 23:30:07< endercoaster> Hi noy
20100406 23:30:21< noy> hello
20100406 23:31:13< pokhbocee> hey
20100406 23:32:05< noy> endercoaster: sooo I've been reading your proposal
20100406 23:32:13< pokhbocee> Crab_: it works. i either make a mistake on brackets or i should have wrote them in order
20100406 23:32:15< endercoaster> noy: thoughts?
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20100406 23:32:29< noy> Issues, my friend, issues
20100406 23:32:32< Crab_> pokhbocee: good
20100406 23:32:48< endercoaster> noy: What do I need to clean up?
20100406 23:33:20< noy> most of it is good, but others are some gameplay conventions that are being changed. 
20100406 23:33:50< noy> Allow leaders is the main one
20100406 23:34:18< endercoaster> Is leadership being changed?
20100406 23:34:36< noy> Well we've never allowed that
20100406 23:34:44< noy> as a design gameplay decision
20100406 23:35:06< noy> team leaders don't share abilities like leadership
20100406 23:35:10< noy> (healing is different)
20100406 23:36:05< pokhbocee> Crab_: but it doesnt accept side = 1,2
20100406 23:36:19< pokhbocee> Crab_: maybe i can make a list of sides and then side = list
20100406 23:36:22< pokhbocee> maybe?
20100406 23:36:44< endercoaster> It's on  http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SoC_Ideas_New_Alliance_System
20100406 23:37:27< noy> well...
20100406 23:37:54< noy> I'll have a discussion about that, but for now just strike it (it won't affect your chances)
20100406 23:38:33< Crab_> pokhbocee: have you tried side='1,2' or side="1,2" ?
20100406 23:38:39< Crab_> pokhbocee: it's probably misinterpreting the comma
20100406 23:39:02< pokhbocee> Crab_: even then how im going to do that
20100406 23:39:15< pokhbocee> within the method i can create a list of enemies
20100406 23:39:29< pokhbocee> but cannot right them in that way since numberof enemies are not fixed
20100406 23:39:38< noy> were you looking for feedback?
20100406 23:39:41< noy> endercoaster: ?
20100406 23:40:02-!- billynux [~billy@239-226-126-200.fibertel.com.ar] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100406 23:40:21< billynux> hi all, Crab_
20100406 23:40:58-!- stikonas [~and@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100406 23:41:05< endercoaster> noy: If you don't mind. I'd like to know what needs improvement (as well as what's strong that I should try to bring the rest up to the same quality)
20100406 23:41:48< noy> I think you've said nothing about your implementation; its not merely programming but there to me seems to be UI aspects. 
20100406 23:42:08< noy> We've already talked about having a control pane for this in mp
20100406 23:42:34< noy> but do players get to chose each different option, or will there be whole rulesets
20100406 23:43:13< noy> Thats both in the mp lobby and inside the mp game
20100406 23:43:16< Crab_> hi, billynux
20100406 23:43:51< billynux> hi, I updated my GSoC wiki with the authentication proxy stuff
20100406 23:44:03< endercoaster> It will be individual options. One of my goals for either this week or next is to photoshop (or GIMP or whatever) together a mock-up of the GUI aspects.
20100406 23:44:18< Crab_> billynux: cool. basic/digest/both ?
20100406 23:44:26< endercoaster> unfortunately, my image editing skills are somewhat lacking
20100406 23:44:26< billynux> both, not NTLM for the moment
20100406 23:44:31< billynux> essentially orfest was right
20100406 23:44:39< billynux> except I changed the tone
20100406 23:44:51< billynux> he said something like "I'm looking into the CONNECT method"
20100406 23:45:05< billynux> and you actually *must* use it to set up the tunnel
20100406 23:45:14< billynux> but then again maybe he meant that
20100406 23:45:44< noy> endercoaster: I think you need to have it in in three days
20100406 23:45:49< Crab_> ok, no need to spend time on NTLM, esp. atm
20100406 23:45:56< Crab_> billynux: what are you next steps ?
20100406 23:45:56< billynux> exactly
20100406 23:46:05< Crab_> nagbot: billynux ?
20100406 23:46:06< nagbot> billynux : http://wiki.wesnoth.org//SummerOfCodeProposal_Billynux
20100406 23:46:11< billynux> well, I'm still looking at the code
20100406 23:46:18< noy> And GUI strikes me as being critical for acceptance
20100406 23:46:33< billynux> I intend to understand as much of it before the full proposal
20100406 23:46:42< endercoaster> noy: The impression I get is that I need to have something in formally through google in three days, but that I can tweak my proposal on the wiki, and the most recent version on the wiki is what the decision will be based on.
20100406 23:46:56< billynux> Also, I'm ready to answer the different C++ backend question
20100406 23:47:11< billynux> But this should be discussed with coders before putting it to practice
20100406 23:47:19< Crab_> billynux: ok, yes, I've already seen those your changes.
20100406 23:47:22< endercoaster> Don't get me wrong, the sooner I can get it done, the better, but I need to balance getting it done with school work and whatnot.
20100406 23:47:50< Crab_> billynux: what's so complex about 'how you'd make it possible to use wesnoth network client with a different c++ backend?' ?
20100406 23:47:51< billynux> I was thinking of doing a linker/build system combination
20100406 23:48:07< billynux> it's not, but there are many ways to go
20100406 23:48:24< noy> endercoaster: I dont think adding a whole aspect to your proposal later as merely a tweak. 
20100406 23:48:42< billynux> my approach: leave a connection creation method unlinked
20100406 23:48:58< billynux> and then use a build system parameter to link it to the proper one
20100406 23:49:23< billynux> in cmake something like add_subdirectories( ${backend parameter} )
20100406 23:49:24< Crab_> billynux: just to save some compilation time, right ?
20100406 23:49:39< chains_> I've noticed a bug in the lobby that makes it extremely hard to use.
20100406 23:49:42< billynux> yes, and not just that
20100406 23:49:47< billynux> It would look really clean
20100406 23:49:53< endercoaster> noy: fair point
20100406 23:49:55< chains_> Everytime I scroll down to see open games, the bar scrolls back up to the top almost immediately
20100406 23:50:02-!- orn [ogmar@adsl-75-26-204-56.dsl.scrm01.sbcglobal.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100406 23:50:07< billynux> and all the obligations of the coder of a different backend is to implement that creation method and the API ones
20100406 23:50:11< noy> chains_: its in the bug report
20100406 23:50:16< chains_> ok cool :) 
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20100406 23:50:32< chains_> Is the list being upside down also in the report?
20100406 23:50:32< noy> chains_: we established a dedicated working group for fixing the mp lobby
20100406 23:50:44< chains_> oh, neat =) 
20100406 23:51:07< chains_> The new filters are a good start, gets around having to scroll. 
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20100406 23:51:35< billynux> Crab_: something like cmake . BACKEND=asio or BACKEND=SDL_net (not sure about cmake notation)
20100406 23:52:36< noy> chains_: I think that might be moved
20100406 23:52:43< noy> its going to be completely altered
20100406 23:52:46< Crab_> billynux: ah, then you've misunderstood the question
20100406 23:53:12< Crab_> billynux: I meant 'the same boost::asio network stack, but different programs which'll use it'
20100406 23:53:13< billynux> ok, so what was meant by it?
20100406 23:53:15< noy> endercoaster: Try to have it by Saturday night... 
20100406 23:53:27< noy> I think its probably one of the biggest issues
20100406 23:53:33< billynux> oh... that is in the API design then...
20100406 23:53:35< Crab_> billynux: sorry if there was confusion because of that
20100406 23:53:44< billynux> and should come straight forward
20100406 23:53:47< billynux> no problem
20100406 23:53:48< noy> and if its not included soon your proposal is incomplete
20100406 23:54:02< noy> endercoaster: if you want to discuss it further with me then do so
20100406 23:54:08< endercoaster> noy: I'm going to set about it now. It won't be the best edited images, but it will give the idea of what I'm going for
20100406 23:54:28< Crab_> orfest: ^ note, just in case that my wording of that question has confused you, as well.
20100406 23:54:31< noy> Thats fine, you can tweak that based on our discussions and our needs. 
20100406 23:55:03< billynux> essentially, this in the design requirements
20100406 23:55:09< billynux> *this IS in..
20100406 23:55:21< Crab_> billynux: basically, I want to tinker on an "alternate client for wesnoth's MP, with connect-to-mp-server-multiple-time" capability
20100406 23:56:00< Crab_> billynux: it'll be headless, and with different storage mechanism, but it'll reuse parts of wesnoth's code
20100406 23:56:12< billynux> yes, that is what you meant by multiplexing right?
20100406 23:56:16< Crab_> yes
20100406 23:56:47< billynux> I expect to have that multiple-connections client running in my prototype code
20100406 23:57:04< Crab_> if such  connect-to-mp-server-multiple-times client is coded, we'd be able to use it to host multiple 'related' games at the same time, without any of the other clients noticing that something is wrong.
20100406 23:57:12< billynux> I would like to code the proxy auth stuff using a local apache server
20100406 23:57:12< noy> endercoaster: you should also discuss implementation with the people at #wesnoth-mp While boucman will be your mentor, the players there have the most experience in this area. 
20100406 23:57:17< billynux> but that will take a little longer
20100406 23:57:32< Crab_> billynux: what do you need apache for ?
20100406 23:57:46-!- ancestral [~ancestral@12.145.225.25] has quit [Quit: ancestral]
20100406 23:57:47< noy> endercoaster: we've tried to play a few diplomacy games in the past, so we can tell you what we'd like to see and what we would not. 
20100406 23:57:55< boucman> billynux: not tonight i'm about to go to bed...
20100406 23:57:56< billynux> to setup my own auth proxy and test drive my code there
20100406 23:58:14< billynux> boucman: ? :)
20100406 23:58:31< icelus> Crab_, ok i think i almost caught up to where you're at with this bug
20100406 23:58:34< Crab_> billynux: ok. if it's needed, I can setup a squid in a freebsd jail for your tests.
20100406 23:58:34< boucman> sorry, I mean endercoaster
20100406 23:58:37< boucman> night all
20100406 23:58:41-!- boucman [~rosen@wesnoth/developer/boucman] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
20100406 23:58:49< icelus> so my current attempt is this: we perform a sync step
20100406 23:58:50-!- erenn [~erenn@78.170.37.38] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds]
20100406 23:58:57< icelus> after prestart and after start
20100406 23:59:10< icelus> that gives us time to communicate any wml decisions that might have occurred
20100406 23:59:14< icelus> before the game was even making turns
20100406 23:59:27< Crab_> icelus: well, you need to communicate just-after-unstore, isn't it ?
20100406 23:59:40< icelus> well i think the general problem is
20100406 23:59:47< Crab_> icelus: since, even if the game hasn't made a turn, the wml state might had changed
20100406 23:59:53< icelus> wml that occurs before the game starts cannot be synchronized
--- Log closed Wed Apr 07 00:00:26 2010