--- Log opened Wed Apr 07 00:00:27 2010
--- Day changed Wed Apr 07 2010
20100407 00:00:26< icelus> uh
20100407 00:00:43< icelus> just after unstore feels like a hack
20100407 00:00:45-!- elias [~elias@allegro/developer/allefant] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds]
20100407 00:00:55< icelus> i'm just thinking this through
20100407 00:00:56< Crab_> icelus: but we need it just-after-unstore, isn't it ?
20100407 00:01:12< icelus> well
20100407 00:01:25< Crab_> icelus: note zookeeper's words, as well
20100407 00:01:39< pokhbocee> Crab_ : How can i set the return type of a function while exposing to lua
20100407 00:01:46< Crab_> icelus: we can state in the docs :" this is usable here and here, not in here", it's better than nothing.
20100407 00:02:16< icelus> Crab_, i don't see the issue with synchronising at prestart and start
20100407 00:02:40< icelus> i guess it could be deadlock if
20100407 00:02:51< icelus> both sides have something to say and something to wait for
20100407 00:03:00< icelus> hm
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20100407 00:04:02< chains_> The new button locations are very far from the map icons in the list
20100407 00:04:36< chains_> You can scroll using the right side of the list, but it's hard to see which game you've scrolled to on that side
20100407 00:05:01< noy> chains_: thats going to be changed later
20100407 00:05:11< noy> chains_: maybe 1.8.2
20100407 00:08:23< chains_> Is there a design document?
20100407 00:08:49< chains_> The buttons for example would be easier to use if they met the edge of the screen that way if you miss to the right, the click would still count. 
20100407 00:10:12< noy> no, we're still discussing it
20100407 00:10:17< noy> We've prioritized that for later
20100407 00:11:03< noy> because we need to knock the major bugs out first that make it truly unusable (bad scrolling behavior, inability to chat and the like)
20100407 00:12:17< chains_> makes sense. :) 
20100407 00:13:30< noy> Once thats sorted out we'll discuss fixing the UI issues
20100407 00:13:55< noy> we want to get the bugs fixed before GSOC really begins. 
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20100407 00:17:38< pokhbocee> Crab_: are u available?
20100407 00:18:18< Crab_> pokhbocee: yes
20100407 00:19:19< pokhbocee> Crab_:  How can i set the return type of a function while exposing to lua
20100407 00:19:36< pokhbocee> i return 12 but i think i need to set return type or msth
20100407 00:19:40< pokhbocee> smth
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20100407 00:20:04< Crab_> pokhbocee: well why you need to do so ?
20100407 00:20:18< Crab_> pokhbocee: if you return 12 values, it's 12 values, no more, no less (some might be nil)
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20100407 00:20:34< pokhbocee> but it returns an integer
20100407 00:20:45< Crab_> you 'return' on stack
20100407 00:20:52< Crab_> by pushing those integers to stack
20100407 00:20:57< Crab_> it's your 'return' data
20100407 00:21:06< Crab_> you just need to say how many you've pushed
20100407 00:22:00< Crab_> pokhbocee: ok, I see the new patch
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20100407 00:23:37< Crab_> pokhbocee: ok, looks good, compiling..
20100407 00:25:18< pokhbocee> thats good
20100407 00:26:21< pokhbocee> Crab_: here is how i implement and call the method http://pastebin.com/vZqXc3QH
20100407 00:26:56< Crab_> pokhbocee: try  locs = {ai.get_adjacent_tiles(20,3)}
20100407 00:28:35< Crab_> and the usual stuff: you don't need res_loc, you don't need new, get_adjacent_tiles is ai-independent, it should be in wesnoth., you don't need  if(i <5)
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20100407 00:30:11< billynux> all right Crab_ , I updated that question's answer. I don't go into detail as to how that will be accomplished, but portability is essentially a design requirement. I could even do some simple applications that use the API as a Proof of Concept
20100407 00:30:16< billynux> ok, gotta go now
20100407 00:30:24< Crab_> billynux: ok, thanks
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20100407 00:30:31< billynux> bye y'all
20100407 00:30:34< Crab_> bye
20100407 00:30:38< pokhbocee> Crab_: it works :D
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20100407 00:30:52< Crab_> what happened with  locs = ai.get_adjacent_tiles(20,3) :
20100407 00:30:58< Crab_> ai.get_adjacent_tiles(20,3) returned 12 values;
20100407 00:31:06< Crab_> then, you assigned them to locs
20100407 00:31:09< Crab_> locs is 1 variable
20100407 00:31:21< Crab_> so, 1st value went to 1st variable (locs)
20100407 00:31:25< Crab_> rest was discarded
20100407 00:31:58< Crab_> you could have done 'loc1x,loc1y,loc2x,loc2y,...,loc6x,loc6y=ai.get_adjacent_tiles(20,3)'
20100407 00:32:03< Crab_> e.g. 12 vars, 12 values
20100407 00:32:23< Crab_> or, {} can be used as a 'table constructor', sort of
20100407 00:32:39< Crab_> then, you assign a 1 table to 1 variable, which (suprise!) works.
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20100407 00:38:01< pokhbocee> :D wow
20100407 00:39:32< pokhbocee> map location starts from 0 right?
20100407 00:39:32< Crab_> icelus: about deadlocks: I don't think that it's possible as all the stuff in the replay is sequenced, and the sequence (messages aside) is the same for all players, so, basically, we're grabbing 'resources', but we do this in the same order on all clients, it shouldn't deadlock
20100407 00:40:11< pokhbocee> Crab_: but in game it seems to be 1 because obviously i need to add 1 while pushing the values to stack
20100407 00:40:35< Crab_> what seems to be 1 ?
20100407 00:41:00< pokhbocee> the start point of the locations
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20100407 00:41:16< pokhbocee> (x,y) start from (0,0) in map_location
20100407 00:41:29< pokhbocee> but in some other parts (1,1)
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20100407 00:44:01< Crab_> ah, missed the ' map location starts from 0 right?' :)
20100407 00:44:16< Crab_> in c++ type, from 0, in interface, from 1
20100407 00:44:34< Crab_> lua uses 'interface' convention, so, from 1
20100407 00:45:05< Crab_> see impl_unit_get - it has   return_int_attrib("x", u.get_location().x + 1);
20100407 00:45:41< pokhbocee> Crab_: fixed
20100407 00:46:02< pokhbocee> tested and it works
20100407 00:46:14< pokhbocee> should i commit this one or wait until i implement more methods
20100407 00:46:44< Crab_> post it on patches, if you're sure that it's ok and if my earlier comments are taken into account
20100407 00:47:22< pokhbocee> now im fixing the allocation problem
20100407 00:48:21< pokhbocee> the get_adjacent_tiles method use the array in a weird way. i couldnt be sure what its doin thats why couldnt deallocate it
20100407 00:49:36< pokhbocee> Crab_: btw did u take a look at my  proposal lately. i couldnt be sure in which part should i explain my propsal in detail. i should explain it in detail within the template right? not in description
20100407 00:59:08< chains_> Anyone else noticed the new wesnoth is slower than 1.6 even with Shift held down?
20100407 00:59:21< chains_> Is this delay just my machine maybe?
20100407 01:01:08< Crab_> pokhbocee: the best way is to add a =project= section just after =irc=
20100407 01:01:21< Crab_> pokhbocee: this way, it'll be at start of page, but description would stay small
20100407 01:02:55< pokhbocee> Crab_: im finished the patch do u want me to submit
20100407 01:03:10< Crab_> pokhbocee: yes, if it works, show it via patches
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20100407 01:16:44< pokhbocee> Crab_: patch is submitted
20100407 01:16:48< Crab_> good
20100407 01:17:50< Crab_> pokhbocee: please fix a memory leak with map_location* res =new  map_location[6];
20100407 01:18:19< Crab_> pokhbocee: please get rid of if(i <5) conditional
20100407 01:19:03< Crab_> about the leak - yes, there's a delete[] in there, but maybe you can avoid that new fully ?
20100407 01:19:25< Crab_> e.g., what if, in the future, get_adjacent_tiles will throw an exception ?
20100407 01:20:04< pokhbocee> the thing is im confused because of the original method
20100407 01:20:05< Crab_> what about simply allocating  map_location adj[6];
20100407 01:20:07< Crab_> ?
20100407 01:20:34< pokhbocee> ok ill do it but im not sure itll work with the original methof
20100407 01:20:46< Crab_> see how get_adjacent_locs are used 
20100407 01:20:52< Crab_> *get_adjacent_tiles
20100407 01:21:23< pokhbocee> btw what is the problem about the wiki ? obviously many ofmy changes are not applied
20100407 01:21:27< Crab_> also, why ouy need res_loc ?
20100407 01:21:30< pokhbocee> i think i got an error again but i didnt see it
20100407 01:21:52< pokhbocee> oops old code
20100407 01:21:57< pokhbocee> sorry about that
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20100407 01:23:08< Crab_> pokhbocee: no need to be sorry, happens :)
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20100407 01:23:38< Crab_> pokhbocee: also, why you decided to put this function in the ai table ?
20100407 01:23:57< Crab_> is the adjacent_tiles thing different for different ais ? :)
20100407 01:24:36< pokhbocee> should i put it in wesnoth table?
20100407 01:24:47< Crab_> well, it's a better place for it, surely.
20100407 01:24:58< pokhbocee> what about the name then?
20100407 01:25:14< Crab_> lua name is ok, but c++ name shouldn't have 'ai' in it
20100407 01:26:00< Crab_> also, why you named it starting with cfun_ ?
20100407 01:26:16< pokhbocee> because similar functions was starting with cfun
20100407 01:26:23< Crab_> you should obey the naming conventions, described on the start of the file
20100407 01:26:40< pokhbocee> oh ok i havent seen it 
20100407 01:26:50< Crab_> cfun_ are for closures, functions which have upvalues
20100407 01:27:02< Crab_> your's doesn't need any, doesn't have any.
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20100407 01:27:32< Crab_> so, it's more like intf_
20100407 01:27:58< Crab_> you've done it right in the previous patch
20100407 01:28:10< Crab_> with intf_get_side_count and intf_is_enemy
20100407 01:33:17< pokhbocee> cant we use grep without specifyng a file ?
20100407 01:33:33< Crab_> yes, but what do you want to do ?
20100407 01:33:52< pokhbocee> im tryingto find how get_adjacent_tiles is used
20100407 01:34:12< Crab_> fgrep -Rn get_adjacent_tiles /path/to/wesnoth/src
20100407 01:34:30< Crab_> use 'fgrep', which is 'find in files'
20100407 01:34:32< pokhbocee> because map_location res[6] doesnt work as parameter to that function
20100407 01:35:12< Crab_> src/ai/testing/ca.cpp:1707
20100407 01:40:48< pokhbocee> ty
20100407 01:40:49< CIA-64> crab * r42039 /trunk/ (changelog data/core/about.cfg src/scripting/lua.cpp): Added lua functions wesnoth.get_side_count() and wesnoth.is_enemy(a,b) - patch #1583 by pokhbocee
20100407 01:40:55< Crab_> pokhbocee: ^ Congratulations. You have made Wesnoth better.
20100407 01:41:08< pokhbocee> :D ahaha ty crab_ all thanks to you
20100407 01:41:39< pokhbocee> i hope i will contribute way more than few small methods :D
20100407 01:41:49< Crab_> that's good :)
20100407 01:45:15< pokhbocee> btw what is the problem in wiki?
20100407 01:45:25< Crab_> pokhbocee: how-to-reproduce ?
20100407 01:45:29< pokhbocee> normally i see the error and save the page again
20100407 01:45:48< pokhbocee> last night i didnt see the error obviously now all changes are gone
20100407 01:46:17< pokhbocee> i can not get it back but im just trying to get rid of my anger :D
20100407 01:47:26< Crab_> pokhbocee: well, that's not good. try to save in a notepad before posting, just in case.
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20100407 01:50:58-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: GSoC: proposals are to be submitted to Google before 9th April 19:00 UTC. Also, when your wiki page is ready, ask us to review it. | 83 bugs, 262 feature requests, 14 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
20100407 01:51:27< pokhbocee> yes actually i should be more careful and see the error 
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20100407 03:32:12< nagbot> Hello from your friendly bot!
20100407 03:32:13< nagbot> GSoC 2010 candidates:
20100407 03:32:14< nagbot> Please do not forget to submit your application to Google!
20100407 03:32:15< nagbot> http://socghop.appspot.com/gsoc/student/apply/google/gsoc2010
20100407 03:32:16< nagbot> The deadline for the application is friday, april 9th, at 19:00 UTC (12:00 PST)
20100407 03:32:17< nagbot> Everyone not enlisted in the google tracker at that time will have *no* chance to participate with Wesnoth as part of summer of code 2010, no matter how great your patches are or *whatever*
20100407 03:32:18< nagbot> Please do this now
20100407 03:32:19< nagbot> Submit patches and prototypes for review, so we'll see how you work.
20100407 03:32:20< nagbot> Join the IRC discussions.
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20100407 03:34:45< un214> I heard some rumor about a 1.8r1. Is there any truth to the matter?
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20100407 03:36:27< shadowmaster> you might see a 1.8.1 at some point
20100407 03:36:43< shadowmaster> that's totally unexpected and unusual because we never update stable branches </scarcasm>
20100407 03:38:10< un214> the rumor was more like in a few days and from your answer I know there isn't one.
20100407 03:38:17< un214> wow wesnoth just crashed right now
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20100407 03:40:56< un214> ok it was #15716
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20100407 04:10:13< CIA-64> ai0867 * r42040 /branches/fendrin_editor/ (74 files in 21 dirs): Merge trunk into editor branch up to r41424
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20100407 04:10:33< CIA-64> ai0867 * r42041 /branches/fendrin_editor/ (26 files in 18 dirs): Merge trunk into editor branch up to r41442
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20100407 04:50:37< pokhbocee> Darkas: hello
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20100407 05:26:59< ancestral> Is there a way to skip someone's turn in WML?
20100407 05:29:24< Blueblaze> yes
20100407 05:29:49< ancestral> How?
20100407 05:29:50< ancestral> Explain
20100407 05:32:26< Blueblaze> [end_turn]: end the current side's turn.
20100407 05:32:37< Blueblaze> http://wiki.wesnoth.org/DirectActionsWML
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20100407 06:30:40< orfest> hi all!
20100407 06:31:15< orfest> I've added proxy support to the statistics uploader. Please check this patch https://gna.org/patch/index.php?1597
20100407 06:31:16< ancestral> Hey!
20100407 06:37:22< billynux> nice orfest !
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20100407 06:46:20< orfest> hi timotei21
20100407 06:46:26< timotei21> shadowmaster, yes, indeed, windows uses & instead of |
20100407 06:46:29< timotei21> hello there orfest 
20100407 06:46:29< timotei21> :D
20100407 06:46:58< timotei21> shadowmaster, btw, thanks for the wget+grep thingy, I can see more easily who left me a message
20100407 06:53:53 * shadowmaster still doesn't believe windows uses & !
20100407 06:54:09< timotei21> try then:P
20100407 06:54:25< timotei21> echo a | echo b => b
20100407 06:54:32< timotei21> echo a & echo b => a \n b
20100407 06:54:55< shadowmaster> notably, I just had to kill windows
20100407 06:55:00< timotei21> and also!
20100407 06:55:25< timotei21> javac .:mylib.jar myjava.java this is on linux afaik
20100407 06:55:35< timotei21> but on windows it has to be: javac .;mylib.jar ...
20100407 06:55:42< timotei21> is ";" instead of ":" :))
20100407 06:56:32< timotei21> or anyway, it has the opposite from linux. I stayed with a friend to debug a simple java compile line, just to learn later that windows uses his own "version" of separators :|
20100407 06:57:24< timotei21> btw shadowmaster, how I download a range of biles based on a pattern?
20100407 06:57:51< timotei21> wget -o - http://www.wesnoth.org/irclogs/2010/04/%23wesnoth-dev.2010-04-*.log
20100407 06:57:58< timotei21> I want to get all logs from april
20100407 06:58:19< shadowmaster> no idea.
20100407 06:58:21< timotei21> and -A refers to the extensions
20100407 06:58:22< timotei21> ok
20100407 06:58:28< shadowmaster> I don't think it's trivial to implement either
20100407 06:58:45< shadowmaster> (since, you know, not all web servers or configurations or directories expose their indexes)
20100407 06:58:55< timotei21> yes...
20100407 06:58:57< orfest> I usually use a simple bash for script :)
20100407 06:59:12< orfest> `seq 1 1 31`
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20100407 07:50:58-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: GSoC: proposals are to be submitted to Google before 9th April 19:00 UTC. Also, when your wiki page is ready, ask us to review it. | 83 bugs, 262 feature requests, 15 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
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20100407 07:52:05< timotei21> thanks Ivanovic
20100407 07:53:03< Sirp> timotei21: uhhhh you need to read up on how Unix wildcards work. :)
20100407 07:53:32< timotei21> it's regex based?
20100407 07:53:51< timotei21> * is wildcard everywhere I know, isn't it?
20100407 07:54:26< Sirp> timotei21: yes, but in Unix shell when you use a * the shell will expand it based on the files on your system.
20100407 07:55:13< timotei21> oh
20100407 07:59:52< ancestral> Anything needed for this? https://gna.org/bugs/?15724
20100407 08:00:11< ancestral> Can it be patched?
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20100407 08:32:12< nagbot> Hello from your friendly bot!
20100407 08:32:13< nagbot> Attention all potential GSoC students:
20100407 08:32:14< nagbot> Fill out the application form at google
20100407 08:32:15< nagbot> http://socghop.appspot.com/gsoc/student/apply/google/gsoc2010
20100407 08:32:16< nagbot> The deadline is coming - application period closes at Apr 9th, 19:00 UTC (12:00 PST)
20100407 08:32:17< nagbot> you can still improve afterwards, but how wonderful your proposal is, if not in google's database we can't accept it
20100407 08:32:18< nagbot> You have been warned.
20100407 08:32:19< nagbot> Please submit patches and prototypes so we can see your ideas in action. 
20100407 08:32:20< nagbot> Talk about your ideas on the IRC
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20100407 09:02:47< CIA-64> zookeeper * r42042 /branches/1.8/data/campaigns/Son_Of_The_Black_Eye/ (8 files in 2 dirs): Made Al'Brock's and Flar'Tar's sides persistent and removed the store/unstore workarounds. Simplifies the WML, makes them able to recall and fixes a bug with Al'Brock not showing up in the final scenario.
20100407 09:08:06< CIA-64> zookeeper * r42043 /trunk/data/campaigns/Son_Of_The_Black_Eye/ (8 files in 2 dirs): Ported r42042 to trunk.
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20100407 10:18:26< Rigor> hi
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20100407 10:49:37< Ivanovic> moin
20100407 10:49:50< Rigor> hi
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20100407 10:51:59< Rigor> my request from yesterday is online 
20100407 10:52:15< Rigor> category wish etc etc
20100407 10:52:34< Rigor> i saw the huge list of wishes that way :D
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20100407 11:37:42< norbert_> Sirp, are you around?
20100407 11:38:40-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has quit [Quit: noy]
20100407 11:39:25< norbert_> did Annoy just leave, is noy annoy?
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20100407 12:24:13< aranair> can anyone point me to somewhere where current unit abilities such as heal, are being effected?
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20100407 12:26:37< aranair> i mean like unit_abilities is where wml for these abilities is defined, but i do not see any reference to any units to it, where the heal actually happens :/
20100407 12:26:59< aranair> thanks in advance ;P
20100407 12:28:57< zookeeper> grep for "heals" (quotes included)?
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20100407 12:39:17< aranair> heh never thought of that, i'll try it out
20100407 12:39:19< aranair> thanks~
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20100407 13:17:21< Rhonda> Someone around with the sdl mouse click issue in sdl on Debian/Ubuntu? Someone prepared a potential fix and would like to have it tested …
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20100407 13:50:58-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: GSoC: proposals are to be submitted to Google before 9th April 19:00 UTC. Also, when your wiki page is ready, ask us to review it. | 83 bugs, 262 feature requests, 16 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
20100407 14:04:33< Ivanovic> Rhonda: mordante already said that he might have time to test it today
20100407 14:04:53< Ivanovic> Rhonda: if it does work, he wants to mention the patch in the upstream bugreport
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20100407 14:24:38< Rhonda> Ivanovic: \o/ - thanks, missed that part. :)
20100407 14:24:58< Ivanovic> you're welcome
20100407 14:30:54< CIA-64> ivanovic * r42044 /trunk/po/wesnoth-dw/: change svn:ignore settings for the new textdomain
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20100407 14:32:50< shadowmaster> where the hell is my link to DM's first mainline revision... :/
20100407 14:34:40< Ivanovic> clear case of "no idea"
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20100407 14:39:17< shadowmaster> esr: did you already check the rank for DW?
20100407 14:39:42< esr> No, but I should get to that later today.
20100407 14:40:30< CIA-64> shadowmaster * r42045 /trunk/RELEASE_NOTES: Release notes entry about DW
20100407 14:41:35< esr> Damn, Beetlenaut did a good job on that.  http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=21836&p=420176#p420176
20100407 14:42:03< Ivanovic> but he had a bad mistake left, the "marked empty string translateable" error
20100407 14:42:12< shadowmaster> Ivanovic: what file?
20100407 14:42:23< Ivanovic> that is: the german translator working on the campaign mailed him about this but never got a reply, i fixed it yesterday
20100407 14:42:35< shadowmaster> I think I had written a test in textdomain_check for making sure that kind of cases didn't slip past the radar :/
20100407 14:42:56< Ivanovic> fixed in r42034
20100407 14:43:01< Ivanovic> wesbot: log 42034
20100407 14:43:03< wesbot> ivanovic * r42034 : the empty string musn't be translateable!!!
20100407 14:43:03< wesbot> URL: http://svn.gna.org/viewcvs/wesnoth?view=rev&rev=42034
20100407 14:43:45< shadowmaster> actually, I haven't. It seems I didn't get past the planning stage for that check
20100407 14:43:59< Ivanovic> i thought such a check was once in wmllint
20100407 14:44:02< Ivanovic> not sure though
20100407 14:44:03< shadowmaster> esr: can wmllint do it?
20100407 14:44:54< esr> Check for trandlateable emoty string? Probably.  It wouldn't catch the problem if indirected through a macro, though.
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20100407 14:45:14< shadowmaster> neither would wmlxgettext
20100407 14:45:36< Ivanovic> the problem in a macro would be found since it already has to be marked there
20100407 14:45:50< shadowmaster> that is, you cannot #define FOO BAR\n _({BAR})\n #enddef {FOO "baz"} and expect wmlxgettext to catch the translatable string "baz"
20100407 14:45:54< Ivanovic> as in 'all cases of _"" should be covered by wmllint'
20100407 14:46:17< Ivanovic> (there can be huge amount of spaces between _ and ", but that's about it)
20100407 14:46:42< esr> Yeah, I can do that easily.
20100407 14:47:14< esr> But I'm deep in another project right now.  Someone file an FR to remind me, please?
20100407 14:47:23 * shadowmaster leaves that task to Ivanovic 
20100407 14:50:00< shadowmaster> esr: also, any answer from beetlenaut regarding the invitation to maintain DW?
20100407 14:50:12< esr> shadowmaster: No.
20100407 14:50:20< shadowmaster> okay, he's been having problems for connecting
20100407 14:51:23< Ivanovic> to gna.org?
20100407 14:51:30< Ivanovic> no suprise since it was down last weekend...
20100407 14:51:32< Ivanovic> ;)
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20100407 15:01:54< CIA-64> ivanovic * r42046 /trunk/po/wesnoth-manpages/de.po: updated German translation
20100407 15:01:56< CIA-64> ivanovic * r42047 /branches/1.8/po/wesnoth-manpages/de.po: updated German translation
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20100407 15:10:20< shadowmaster> Ivanovic: no, to the Internet
20100407 15:10:27< Ivanovic> oh, okay
20100407 15:11:14< shadowmaster> http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=11445 looks like a wreck here
20100407 15:11:40< shadowmaster> Firefox says it is trying to parse it as UTF-8 though
20100407 15:19:15< shadowmaster> Ivanovic: Wesnoth (mainline) uses SF.net's FRS facilities only, right?
20100407 15:20:05< Ivanovic> exactly
20100407 15:20:17< shadowmaster> hm...I recall that the Gna.org repo was linked to from the SF.net page once
20100407 15:20:21< shadowmaster> *I seem to
20100407 15:21:01< Ivanovic> uhm, i don't think so
20100407 15:21:21< shadowmaster> well, it's generally not a problem for a SF.net project to exist only for using the FRS?
20100407 15:21:37< Ivanovic> that is perfectly fine from what i know
20100407 15:21:53< shadowmaster> okay...now I just need a website.
20100407 15:21:57< shadowmaster> >.<
20100407 15:21:57< Ivanovic> at least that is what we have been doing for ages
20100407 15:22:07< Ivanovic> you can create the website at sf.net
20100407 15:22:17< Ivanovic> or, in case of wesnoth, we could also have the website right at gna.org
20100407 15:22:20< shadowmaster> I don't like SF.net's web host facilities.
20100407 15:22:24< Ivanovic> most project hosters offer some features for this
20100407 15:22:24< shadowmaster> (yes, I've used them before)
20100407 15:22:56< shadowmaster> I guess I'll create a SF.net project for Wesnoth-TC for now while I find out what happened with my sponsor
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20100407 15:45:23< Ivanovic> Rhonda: one way to speed things on wesnoth.org up:
20100407 15:45:32< Ivanovic> move the repository checkouts to the backup drive
20100407 15:46:04< Ivanovic> reason: they get lots of load with every update of the gettext stats (a run of svn up as well as parsing all the .po files)
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20100407 16:25:42< Ivanovic> Rhonda: beside this Sirp decided to upgrade the amount of RAM for wesnoth.org
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20100407 16:49:58< AI0867> fendrin: do I remember correctly that fendrin_editor was ready for merging and fendrin_pathfind/fendrin_gui_stuff weren't?
20100407 16:51:36< AI0867> zookeeper: how do you feel about a recall_cost key for [side] to override the one in [game_config]? (and possibly also one for [scenario]) I seem to have a patch lying around that does the former
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20100407 17:05:30< icelus> AI0867, i'd be interested in what you think of the stuff i just added to https://gna.org/bugs/?15560
20100407 17:12:29< AI0867> looking...
20100407 17:14:05< zookeeper> AI0867, sounds good to me
20100407 17:14:41< zookeeper> AI0867, might be nice to enable it in [unit_type] too
20100407 17:17:08< AI0867> icelus: my own idea was something along the lines of: S' if on a turn, W (using synchronised random numbers) otherwise
20100407 17:17:42< AI0867> but it looks like a good analysis of the problem, I'm not too familiar with the replay code
20100407 17:17:46< AI0867> you want yogihh for that
20100407 17:20:19< AI0867> zookeeper: it should probably be overridable by [unit] in that case. I'll get the old patch up to speed first though
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20100407 17:27:20< AI0867> did the mysql server just roll over and die?
20100407 17:27:31< Ivanovic> i have quit it for a moment
20100407 17:27:51< Ivanovic> i am currently moving over the checkouts to a different drive, but it was taking ages and would have hindered all of the website anyway
20100407 17:27:59< Ivanovic> thus, to speed this move up, i stopped mysqld
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20100407 17:30:30< Ivanovic> i will restart the mysqld in ~10mins (since i will leave then for 2h)
20100407 17:31:04< Zarel> Moving servers?
20100407 17:31:18< Ivanovic> no, moving harddrives for all the checkouts on the server
20100407 17:31:22< Ivanovic> (with *many* tiny files)
20100407 17:31:50< Ivanovic> the desired end result is that mysql and our update scripts that work on the repo can soon work better in parallel
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20100407 17:35:02< Ivanovic> (the checkouts on the box include, but are not limited to, checkout of branches/1.{2,4,6,8}, trunk, website/{start,gettext.wesnoth.org,stats.wesnoth.org}, wescamp-i18n
20100407 17:35:17< Ivanovic> so yeah, many repositories with myriads of tiny files
20100407 17:36:19< AI0867> there's still a 1.2 checkout?
20100407 17:36:28< Ivanovic> yes
20100407 17:36:35< AI0867> for 1.2 campaignd?
20100407 17:36:54< Ivanovic> no idea what for exactly, it is still there and i won't start some huge cleanup now
20100407 17:38:02< lfernando> hi
20100407 17:38:06< lfernando> are some wesnoth sites down?
20100407 17:41:05< AI0867> temporarily, yes
20100407 17:43:52< Ivanovic> restarting the sql server, leaving then
20100407 17:44:05< Ivanovic> some parts of the site will be down until a new symlink is placed and the likes
20100407 17:44:28< Ivanovic> (eg g.w.o or devdocs)
20100407 17:44:44< icelus> AI0867, thanks for the feedback
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20100407 17:52:28< lfernando> The wiki is back now. AI0867, Ivanovic, thanks for the help
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20100407 18:15:55< Johannes13> when I get the msg in a scn "<Invalid wml found> [gold] missing required amount= attribute", is there anywere a hint where I can find this error?
20100407 18:16:59< zookeeper> looks like it's right there
20100407 18:17:54< Johannes13> I don't find a missing [gold] statement
20100407 18:18:08< Johannes13> ehh, a missing ammount= in a [gold]
20100407 18:18:13< Johannes13> sec
20100407 18:19:41< awilkins_> so if something isn't caught by the preprocesser it'll only throw an error when the actual scenario starts?
20100407 18:24:04< Johannes13> yes
20100407 18:24:18< awilkins_> does the error display any line numbers? or file names?
20100407 18:26:50< zookeeper> no, but those kind of errors are very easy to track down, since at least you get a clear message of what's wrong
20100407 18:27:04< zookeeper> and of course you also know when it occurs
20100407 18:30:34< awilkins_> zookeeper: can you think of an ambiguous case where it wouldn't be easy to track down?
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20100407 18:34:22< zookeeper> awilkins_, not really. of course it's all relative; it can still take time to figure out what goes wrong if you're for example using a variable as the amount.
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20100407 18:34:58< zookeeper> but compared to most other problems you're likely to stumble across when writing something...that's probably one of the most helpful error messages we have, i think :p
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20100407 18:35:58< awilkins_> zookeeper: Yah seems that way haha, I'm curious what piece of code handles that. 
20100407 18:38:31< Johannes13> ok, download the coloseum mp scn for 1.6 and show me the error.
20100407 18:38:41< Johannes13> PS.: I've fixed the path
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20100407 19:12:24< icelus> not sure how many people are lurking here, but feedback on the analysis posted with https://gna.org/bugs/?15560 would be appreciated
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20100407 19:50:58-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: GSoC: proposals are to be submitted to Google before 9th April 19:00 UTC. Also, when your wiki page is ready, ask us to review it. | 82 bugs, 262 feature requests, 16 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
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20100407 19:53:13< pokhbocee> Crab_: I have finished the exposing to lua but silene ask me to implement the method in lua instead of exposing from c++. 
20100407 19:53:47< pokhbocee> Crab_: im gonna update the patch now cuz it was already finished yesterday. if u want i can implement it in lua
20100407 20:11:34< Ivanovic> once mordante is around: what exactly is required to generate devdocs?
20100407 20:11:44< Ivanovic> that is: starting with a fresh checkout, what are the required commands?
20100407 20:12:22< timotei21> hey Ivanovic 
20100407 20:13:42< Ivanovic> Rhonda, Soliton, Sirp: it would be great if you could check if this move of the svn checkouts to a different HD does help IO
20100407 20:14:42< shadowmaster> collectd stats?
20100407 20:14:48-!- nagbot [~nagbot@wesnoth/bot/nagbot] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100407 20:15:20< shadowmaster> of course, someone must watch them ;)
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20100407 20:20:02< Crab_> pokhbocee: ok
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20100407 20:24:08< pokhbocee> Crab_: i have submitted as we discussed yesterday because i was already finished it. 
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20100407 20:25:53< Crab_> orfest: note about your patch: http_file_uploader.hpp seems missing, maybe 'svn diff' ignored it.
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20100407 20:28:09< gabba> hi
20100407 20:28:18< Crab_> pokhbocee: which one you've submitted ?
20100407 20:28:21< Crab_> hi, gabba
20100407 20:28:33< pokhbocee> Crab_: get_adjacent_tiles
20100407 20:28:37< gabba> hey Crab_
20100407 20:28:52< pokhbocee> Crab_: the others are already done
20100407 20:29:07< Crab_> pokhbocee: can you give me a  link ?
20100407 20:29:22< pokhbocee> Crab_: btw can you take a look at my proposal.
20100407 20:29:27< gabba> happygrue: if you want to discuss my proposal now, I'm available
20100407 20:29:31< Crab_> pokhbocee: ok
20100407 20:30:20< icelus> Crab_, would be interested in your feedback on that bug btw
20100407 20:30:29< pokhbocee> Crab_: and people interested in ai has partially similar things in their proposal. should we meet and make a work distribution?
20100407 20:31:28< Crab_> icelus: yes, I've read your and silene's messages, and I'll comment, a bit later.
20100407 20:32:53< Crab_> gabba: "Since the planned move does disappear when the move is executed, the ally will have the temporary impression that the planned move was canceled, not executed." - no, if we have undo, we can transmit the 'status change' of this planned move, not remove it. so, ally will see this move as 'done but undoable'
20100407 20:32:58< icelus> Crab_, ok cool no worries
20100407 20:35:27< gabba> Crab_: hmm
20100407 20:37:40< gabba> Crab_: at least it's extra work in the interface, I don't see how to represent that
20100407 20:38:40< Ivanovic> Rhonda, Soliton, Sirp: at least the time required till the g.w.o stats are generated is significantly down due to this move of the checkouts
20100407 20:38:40< gabba> Crab_: we can of course find a way, but it breaks the visual continuity I was aiming for, i.e. allies see the same thing their allies see
20100407 20:38:46< Ivanovic> time is basically halved
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20100407 20:40:19< YogiHH> hello
20100407 20:40:52< gabba> hi YogiHH
20100407 20:41:57< Crab_> hi, YogiHH
20100407 20:42:20< Crab_> gabba: well, the allies will be able to see the same thing.
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20100407 20:50:40< awilkins_> Crab_: Just checking, is a libWML still something that would be acceptable as a google summer of code project?
20100407 20:50:54< shadowmaster> libirdya? :P
20100407 20:51:13< Crab_> awilkins_, shadowmaster: acceptable for me.
20100407 20:51:32< shadowmaster> I mean, WML is already a well known non-Wesnoth related thing
20100407 20:51:43< Crab_> shadowmaster: yes, I remember that discussion
20100407 20:51:47< shadowmaster> *things. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WML
20100407 20:52:01< shadowmaster> anyway, see you later
20100407 20:52:18< Crab_> awilkins_: just be sure to specify the draft 'scope' of said library and the 'score' of functionality that you will pull out to it
20100407 20:52:30< Crab_> awilkins_: and be sure to do it *soon*, in a few days.
20100407 20:52:43< Crab_> awilkins_: we need to know the bounds of the project and get down to serious discussions fast.
20100407 20:52:44< awilkins_> Crab_: well whatever the name, I remember you mentioning you wouldn't mind seeing a library to port out the preprocessor to other C++ tools. I just haven't had enough time to make a proposal on that.
20100407 20:53:14< Crab_> awilkins_: yes, you're right.
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20100407 20:54:41< awilkins_> Crab_: I've been reading through the preprocessor.cpp past couple of days, trying to see how detailed of a proposal I can make for a library to wrap around it. 
20100407 20:55:02< Crab_> awilkins_: preprocessor, config, ...
20100407 20:55:20< Crab_> lfernando: It's nice that you've started a wiki page. I hope that you'll fill out that 'In Progress' part soon
20100407 20:56:09< awilkins_> Crab_: right, the whole process.
20100407 20:56:21< happygrue> gabba: ok
20100407 20:56:44< happygrue> gabba: I'll be free in a few minutes
20100407 20:56:45< lfernando> I'm just writing it as for now =)
20100407 20:56:50< gabba> happygrue: ok
20100407 20:56:57< lfernando> the proposal
20100407 20:58:43< gabba> Crab_: maybe we can only remove the planned move only when the real move has become non-undoable, but it does complicate things:
20100407 20:59:01< gabba> Crab_: 1- extra detection of when the undo stack is emptied (ok, not hard)
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20100407 20:59:47< Crab_> gabba: well, it's not that complicated
20100407 21:00:10< gabba> Crab_: 2-the undo list is now different on my client than on my allies? Or we introduce an "invisible to current player but visible to allies, with special marker", kind of planned move?
20100407 21:00:34< Crab_> gabba: only local client will keep an undo list
20100407 21:00:37< Crab_> gabba: foreach (planned-move mp) {if mp is in undostack then mark as 'done but in undo' }
20100407 21:00:53< happygrue> gabba: ok, I have read through it and I like the concept.  It looks like you have been talking with noy about some things - was there some specific question you wanted to address regarding interface changes, or are you looking for general feedback?
20100407 21:01:14< happygrue> (also, we can continue later if you are already busy with crab)  ;)
20100407 21:01:18< Crab_> so, "invisible to current player but visible as 'actual move with special marker' to allies", kind of planned move
20100407 21:01:24 * Crab_ disappears
20100407 21:01:30< happygrue> hehe
20100407 21:01:44< gabba> happygrue: more general feedback, but I'm interested in knowing whether you think the interface as proposed will be an improvement over what we have now
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20100407 21:03:06< happygrue> As I understand what you have proposed, I think it would be a really nice improvement.  There is some question about handling undos and if it would be tricky for players to learn/adjust to I guess?
20100407 21:03:33< gabba> Crab_: sure, I see how to do it. But we already have markers for soft/hard conflicts, planned recruited units, and now this, it makes it harder to have an interface that makes sense
20100407 21:04:04< happygrue> but overall I think that "good changes" will be adapted to and liked.  I for one would certainly like to see something like this.
20100407 21:04:21< gabba> happygrue: well, what we're gonna do is probably to leave undos as-is and build this system on top of it
20100407 21:04:44< gabba> happygrue: I was precisely discussing an issue about that with Crab_
20100407 21:05:01< happygrue> a question about that:  I was slightly unclear about the difference between "undo" and "cancel" in your writeup?
20100407 21:05:18< gabba> happygrue: if you like the proposal and don't see any gaping loophole, that's good news
20100407 21:05:50< happygrue> so cancel would be for planned moves, and undo as it is now, for moves that have been 'executed' but not updateding any shourd/info?
20100407 21:05:57< gabba> happygrue: hmm, where did I use the "undo" word apart from the "gameplay" section?
20100407 21:06:05< happygrue> you didn't use the word undo
20100407 21:06:11< happygrue> only the word cancel IIRC
20100407 21:06:13< gabba> happygrue: yes
20100407 21:06:34< happygrue> that is: both undo and cancel would exist?
20100407 21:06:44< happygrue> (at least for some time)
20100407 21:06:53< gabba> happygrue: yes, except that delay shroud updates will be gone
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20100407 21:08:19< happygrue> ok, here are a few things that struck me in my readthrough.  My apologies if these are covered and I missed it:
20100407 21:08:23< gabba> happygrue: and as you say if we feel that we can later get rid of undo, we'll do it (i.e. if my new system is a sufficient replacement)
20100407 21:08:33< gabba> happygrue: go ahead
20100407 21:08:39< happygrue> 1.  when executing moves quickly will woses be able to skip from forest to forest unseen?
20100407 21:08:46< norbert_> hi, in Delfador's Memoirs _main.cfg I found a field "Spiros Alexiou (Santi/fnaek)" (that has comment="Scenarios 12 and following.")
20100407 21:08:47< norbert_> in Legend of Wesmere _main.cfg I found a field "Spiros, George and Alexander Alexiou (Santi/fnaek)"
20100407 21:08:51< norbert_> the latter appear to be 3 peopl
20100407 21:08:54< norbert_> so this makes me wonder if the first (Spiros Alexiou) are two people and a comma is missing?
20100407 21:08:57< norbert_> or is this all 1 person who calls himself "Spiros, George and Alexander Alexiou" and has 2 nick names?
20100407 21:09:08< gabba> happygrue: 1: how does that work again?
20100407 21:09:12< happygrue> 2. will this look really cluttered on a small map, or in 'really heavy' fighting?  
20100407 21:09:47< happygrue> for 1, right now you can see the wose move around but if it start in forest and ends in forest you need to be observent in order to see the move
20100407 21:10:03< happygrue> if moves are speeded up, they will be invisible or something like it
20100407 21:10:16< zookeeper> Ivanovic, there's two (almost) identical strings in TRoW, the only difference is necromancy/Necromancy:
20100407 21:10:17< zookeeper> "Haldric, we are an ancient people who lived in a land filled with all manner of man and beast. We needed vision that extended beyond the meager span of human years. The art of Necromancy allowed our best and brightest to live forever, and our worst got to serve as mindless slaves."
20100407 21:10:17< zookeeper> "Haldric, we are an ancient people who lived in a land filled with all manner of man and beast. We needed vision that extended beyond the meager span of human years. The art of necromancy allowed our best and brightest to live forever, and our worst got to serve as mindless slaves."
20100407 21:10:17< happygrue> (when moving from forest to another forest, not adjacent)
20100407 21:10:32< Ivanovic> zookeeper: uhm, then fix the strings
20100407 21:10:37< gabba> happygrue: wow, is that supposed to be a gameplay feature?
20100407 21:10:40< zookeeper> Ivanovic, do you want to check if one of them has better translation stats or do i just nuke one of them?
20100407 21:10:41< Ivanovic> as in: sync them
20100407 21:10:52< Ivanovic> you just nuke one of them and are done
20100407 21:10:59< happygrue> gabba: I think is actually more of a "problem that no one has complained about"
20100407 21:10:59< zookeeper> nuking...
20100407 21:11:05< happygrue> it bothers me, but it's not really a big deal
20100407 21:11:36< happygrue> I think that woses should be ghosted in their new ambush location when the move like that in the current system anyway, but it hasn't come up.
20100407 21:11:39< gabba> happygrue: anyways, the "quick" part is only what the player sees, the moves get transmitted the usual way to other players
20100407 21:11:47< happygrue> ok
20100407 21:12:07< happygrue> 3. can you program in illegal moves?
20100407 21:12:36< CIA-64> zookeeper * r42048 /trunk/data/campaigns/The_Rise_Of_Wesnoth/scenarios/07_Return_to_Oldwood.cfg: Removed a redundant string which only differed from another one by one letter.
20100407 21:13:58< pokhbocee> Crab_: is there any missing thing in patch 1577? if there is leave me a message ill check it from the log
20100407 21:13:59< gabba> happygrue: 2: That's a valid concern, I was precisely thinking of how to design the interface properly in what I call the "merry-go-round" situation, where 5 units are surrounding an enemy, and let's say they all want to move 1 space counter-clockwise
20100407 21:14:05< pokhbocee> have a nice day everybody
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20100407 21:14:31< norbert_> are Spiros, George and Alexander Alexiou three different people?
20100407 21:14:46< norbert_> and are Santi and fnaek two nicks for Alexander Alexiou?
20100407 21:15:54< gabba> 3: yes, except if they're completely impossible i.e. moving into a cave wall. They'll just have a visual warning attached indicating the invalid move.
20100407 21:16:56< happygrue> ok
20100407 21:17:19< norbert_> I'll file a bug report
20100407 21:17:27< norbert_> someone may reply to that
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20100407 21:18:27 * happygrue is still wrapping his brain around things
20100407 21:19:05< gabba> happygrue: ;) the proposal is quite big
20100407 21:21:01< happygrue> regarding the scroll tracking:  I think it should be turned off durring planning mode (some players will want it turned off all the time).  Perhaps an indicator of something happening would be to make unit dots blink in the mini map
20100407 21:21:27< happygrue> if it were a 'larger' blink for 1-2 seconds that would probably be enough?
20100407 21:21:51< happygrue> people without scroll tracking are used to things going on 'off screen' though, so it is not a big problem IMO
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20100407 21:22:54< gabba> happygrue: good idea -- the only question is, will I be able to implement the indicator in time, and can we live without it in the meanwhile
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20100407 21:23:12< happygrue> gabba: do I understand it correctly that I could click a few hexes to create unit a path (for one or more turns)?
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20100407 21:23:33< happygrue> gabba: I agree
20100407 21:23:51< gabba> oops, wireless problems
20100407 21:24:11< happygrue> gabba: did you see this?  "do I understand it correctly that I could click a few hexes to create unit a path (for one or more turns)?"
20100407 21:24:28< gabba> no, I missed it, thanks
20100407 21:25:02< gabba> happygrue: you mean, a multi-waypoint path?
20100407 21:25:24< happygrue> right, I want my scout to avoid a likely ambush => maybe a path has 5 clicks
20100407 21:25:31< happygrue> because I don't want the AI to choose my movepath
20100407 21:25:39< happygrue> all for one turn
20100407 21:26:47< gabba> I thought about it too, but it wasn't planned up to now -- all it would take is holding ctrl or something and click, click, click :)
20100407 21:27:03< gabba> happygrue: the backend will be in place to add it very easily at least
20100407 21:27:43< Crab_> gabba: note that multi-waypoint pathes were actually supported for some time. alink knows more.
20100407 21:27:45< happygrue> it seems to me that if undo is to be removed it might be better to make it undo waypoints insdead
20100407 21:28:04< gabba> Crab_: really? except you can't set them :P?
20100407 21:28:05< happygrue> but that is a low priority I guess.
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20100407 21:28:31< Crab_> gabba: yes, afair, now it's 'engine supports, ui doesn't "
20100407 21:28:58< gabba> Crab_: good to know, then maybe I can "unlock" them while I'm working with paths
20100407 21:29:25< Crab_> gabba: I'd say "support them in the engine, don't support in the UI" :)
20100407 21:29:59< gabba> happygrue: honestly I'd prefer removing undo now and design from there, but most devs find it too radical
20100407 21:30:11< Crab_> gabba: and, if you are accepted and if you finish early, then try all those little things
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20100407 21:30:40< gabba> Crab_: yes, I'll just keep it in the back of my mind so it's easy to add later
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20100407 21:36:49< happygrue> gabba: a player could make a plan for some units then on his turn execute the first move, switch out of plan-mode make some other non-planned moves, switch back to plan-mode cancel a few planned moves and then execute the rest?
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20100407 21:40:03< norbert_> esr: why did you mark my bug report about that name invalid?
20100407 21:40:15< norbert_> is there a person called Spiros Alexiou?
20100407 21:40:36< norbert_> or is the space used to separate people in a name= field?
20100407 21:40:58< norbert_> (just curious)
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20100407 21:42:18< gabba> happygrue: yes, there's nothing that prevents that.
20100407 21:42:37< esr> There is such a person.  He seems to be the father of George and Alexander.
20100407 21:43:05< gabba> happygrue: besides, there will be a key to make a normal move while in planning mode, and vice versa
20100407 21:43:13< happygrue> gabba: and units that have plans that you move outisde of plan-mode will have their plans canceled I guess.
20100407 21:43:20< happygrue> gabba: good.
20100407 21:43:34< happygrue> the shift-click I guess?
20100407 21:43:44< gabba> happygrue: plans never get cancelled
20100407 21:43:52< gabba> happygrue: yes ^
20100407 21:44:14< happygrue> so what happens when I move some units and 'execute all' and there are a bunch of invalid plans?
20100407 21:44:16< gabba> happygrue: I mean they never get cancelled unless you explicitly execute or cancel them
20100407 21:44:53< happygrue> so the plan would change to start from the new location of a moved unit but not be canceled?
20100407 21:45:08< happygrue> *cancelled
20100407 21:45:13< gabba> happygrue: so they can be carried from turn to turn, and they stay on the map even if you go out of planning mode
20100407 21:45:23< happygrue> I see.
20100407 21:45:32< gabba> happygrue: if it's a multi-turn move, yes only the part that was executed disappears
20100407 21:45:38< happygrue> I assume a "cancel all" command would be a good idea?
20100407 21:45:47< gabba> happygrue: probably
20100407 21:46:25< norbert_> esr: Legend of Wesmere says: name= _ "Spiros, George and Alexander Alexiou (Santi/fnaek)"
20100407 21:46:43< norbert_> which seems to indicate that (Santi/fnaek) are nicks for Alexander Alexiou
20100407 21:46:55< norbert_> Delfador's Memoirs says: name="Spiros Alexiou (Santi/fnaek)"
20100407 21:47:09< norbert_> which seems to indicate that (Santi/fnaek) are nicks for Spiros Alexiou
20100407 21:47:15< norbert_> father and son have the same nicknames?
20100407 21:47:32< norbert_> or maybe the problem is with those nicknames, that they should be added behind the real names and not at the end?
20100407 21:47:50< esr> Yes.  It was very confusing.  We were never sure who we were dealing with.
20100407 21:48:00< happygrue> gabba: what happens when 'executing all' when new units are sighted?  stop every time?
20100407 21:48:08< norbert_> oh okay, thanks for the information
20100407 21:48:24< esr> I mean "yes, father and sons have the same nicknames"
20100407 21:49:06< Crab_> schumi: note that the 'possible syntax' of [load_global_variable] and [save_global_variable] got amended a bit.   s/load/get     s/save/set
20100407 21:49:55< gabba> happygrue: I covered that briefly already, but no, it won't stop at sightings
20100407 21:50:24< schumi> Crab_ okay. the newest is in the idea page?
20100407 21:50:42< Crab_> schumi: yes.
20100407 21:51:39< Crab_> schumi: also note s/persist_id/namespace
20100407 21:51:51< happygrue> gabba: ok.  I am I correct in thinking that the goal of the system is not for most players to plan all their moves, but for players to plan a few moves that they think are pretty likely, or coordinate something more carefully with allies?
20100407 21:52:43< gabba> happygrue: now I'm wondering if I should do something like "execute all moves after this one" instead of "execute all", so players can keep some moves in reserve and build a more temporary plan on top of that... dunno if you see what I mean
20100407 21:53:35< happygrue> gabba: also, I think showing changed gold for planned recruits is a good idea (as you mention), and that this would be a vast improvement over the current mutli-turn move system.
20100407 21:53:37< happygrue> hmm
20100407 21:53:42< gabba> happygrue: the idea would be that you plan whenever you would like undo-style capabilities
20100407 21:54:04< happygrue> gabba: that is also what I am wondering about as I ask these random questions.  :)
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20100407 21:54:25< happygrue> I am a player that does a lot of moving and undoing, then make an attack or 5 attackes, then more moving and undoing
20100407 21:54:25< Crab_> happygrue: also note that it'll be possible to see the outcome of attack of multiple attackers vs a single defender
20100407 21:54:37< happygrue> Crab_: yes that is a very exciting idea :)
20100407 21:55:00< gabba> Yeah, we just need an interface for that :D
20100407 21:55:12< happygrue> altough maybe a bit tricky or problematic in some cases
20100407 21:55:26< happygrue> on that topic (multi attacker CTK):
20100407 21:55:42< schumi> Crab_: where?
20100407 21:55:52< Crab_> schumi: in the idea page, too.
20100407 21:56:05< happygrue> 1. is allowing players to see the CTK from multiple attackers and then undo them all only to try a different combination a good idea for a multiplayer game?
20100407 21:56:14< happygrue> this could lead to real slow-down if some players abuse it
20100407 21:56:27< happygrue> maybe that is 'not our problem' (TM)
20100407 21:56:33< Crab_> happygrue: well, trying to calculate it by hand or by a spreadsheet is slower ;)
20100407 21:56:57< happygrue> Crab_: the counter arguement would be that it is part of the skill of a good player, to estemate these things on the fly
20100407 21:57:03< happygrue> (not sure I agree 100%)
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20100407 21:57:16< happygrue> but there is potential for slowing down in practice I think
20100407 21:57:31< gabba> happygrue: well, let's not discuss that feature now, as I wasn't planning to implement it for this GSoC, it doesn't sound trivial
20100407 21:57:46< happygrue> gabba: understood
20100407 21:58:07< happygrue> it is fun to think about though.  Would be really nice in some situations
20100407 21:58:14< Crab_> happygrue: well, the number of potential 'multiple attacks' is still too big, so skill would be needed to select 'promising' ones
20100407 21:58:38< Crab_> happygrue: as the number of combinations is very high compared to single attack. so, skill would stay important.
20100407 21:58:43< happygrue> gabba: another issue, how does this work with timers?
20100407 21:59:15< happygrue> does the timer pause while moves are executed?  What happens if time runs out in the middle of a string of moves being executed?
20100407 21:59:30< Crab_> happygrue: the timers shouldn't be affected by the things you do, unless you actually commit to some moves/attacks
20100407 21:59:51< Crab_> happygrue: e.g., if you plan, you're actually doing nothing, from the point of view of your enemies
20100407 22:00:06< Crab_> happygrue: if you execute moves, then you're doing moves from the point of view of your enemies
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20100407 22:00:36< gabba> happygrue: I've never used timers, but any moves already commited would still execute I suppose
20100407 22:00:50< happygrue> my big fear is that if I plan 4 moves and then execute them with 40 seconds remaining, what happens if I encouter a few problems and spend 20+ seconds correcting errors/illegal moves and then the rest of my moves are discarded? or I am left with no time?
20100407 22:00:59< happygrue> maybe this is just not a shorter-timer feature
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20100407 22:01:48< gabba> happygrue: I think it's just a case of wisely using the planning feature... 
20100407 22:01:59< schumi> Crab_: not sure what you mean...
20100407 22:02:00< happygrue> gabba: I tend to agree
20100407 22:02:36< happygrue> I'm just throwing out anything I can think of that might be a problem.  ;)
20100407 22:03:13< gabba> happygrue: keep it coming, it's useful -- there's no way I can possibly see every aspect of this
20100407 22:03:31< noy_> happygrue did I miss anything important?
20100407 22:03:53< happygrue> noy_: last 30 minutes or so is worth reading
20100407 22:04:12< happygrue> noy_: actually last 60 minutes
20100407 22:04:26< gabba> time flies
20100407 22:04:31< happygrue> hehe
20100407 22:04:45< Crab_> schumi: well, I was trying to note that 'persist_id' attribute of those tags was renames since we last spoke about it
20100407 22:04:51< noy_> Whats the executive summary happygrue ?
20100407 22:05:23< happygrue> noy_: possible issue would be what happens in heavy fighting or on a small map (does it get really cluttered?)
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20100407 22:05:38< Crab_> schumi: since we've spoken with zookeeper, and he said that namespace sounded better.
20100407 22:05:39< happygrue> gabba: with regard to that, what does this look like if you try to plot a move onto another unit?
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20100407 22:05:55< noy_> One issue is teaching new players on this system
20100407 22:06:03< gabba> gotta hate the school wireless
20100407 22:06:10< happygrue> gabba: hehe
20100407 22:06:10< Crab_> noy_: we need to rewrite the tutorial anyway
20100407 22:06:19< noy_> because if they didn't know how to use it, clutter will become a major issue
20100407 22:06:44< happygrue> as I see it the system can be largely ignored anyway and doubtless some players will do so?
20100407 22:06:55< noy_> see I personally might not use it
20100407 22:07:11< happygrue> newer players can learn it from an 'advanced tutorial' or as they learn other features or commands
20100407 22:07:22< noy_> because I need that really fine grain micromanagement
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20100407 22:07:42< noy_> If I can get multi-unit CTKs that would be a tremendous advantage
20100407 22:07:45< nagbot> Hi!
20100407 22:07:46< nagbot> GSoC 2010 candidates:
20100407 22:07:47< nagbot> Tell Google about your application!
20100407 22:07:48< nagbot> http://socghop.appspot.com/gsoc/student/apply/google/gsoc2010
20100407 22:07:49< nagbot> The deadline is coming - application period closes at Apr 9th, 19:00 UTC (12:00 PST)
20100407 22:07:50< nagbot> Everyone not enlisted in the google tracker at that time will have *no* chance to participate with Wesnoth as part of Summer of Code 2010, no matter how good your proposal in the wiki is or *whatever*
20100407 22:07:51< nagbot> We can select ONLY people listed there!
20100407 22:07:52< nagbot> Please submit patches and prototypes so we can see your ideas in action. 
20100407 22:07:53< nagbot> Join the IRC discussions.
20100407 22:08:04< noy_> but I'd never execute a multiunit attack, EVER. 
20100407 22:08:11< noy_> and I doubt any good player would
20100407 22:08:25< happygrue> noy_: I think the goal is to allow as much use or not use as the player wants.
20100407 22:08:30< happygrue> noy_: that is true
20100407 22:08:42< happygrue> however, it might be made a plan and then executed one attack at a time
20100407 22:08:44< Crab_> noy_: well, the plan is 'after first attack, things stop, and the player is free to see if things need to be changed'
20100407 22:08:54< gabba> noy_: I don't see why you'd execute a bunch of attacks either, you need to see the result of each one before moving on
20100407 22:08:55< happygrue> or made a plan and then execute the first one and throw out the rest
20100407 22:09:18< noy_> see if its the default operation, then I'd be doing a lot of check and undo
20100407 22:09:48< noy_> I know you started early gabba but I wish we had another month to go over this
20100407 22:10:08< noy_> or check and unplan*
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20100407 22:10:30< happygrue> noy_: think about playing in a multiplayer game and planning the moves of those 3 units on the left flank while you do the rest of your moves and your ally looks over what you have planned?
20100407 22:10:42< noy_> Thats fine G
20100407 22:10:43< happygrue> then you can execute them one at a time or all together later in your turn
20100407 22:10:50< noy_> I'm not disputing that its an advantage
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20100407 22:11:26< noy_> And I'm not trying to sink this, but we've got to go over each and every instance people plan and attack in the game. 
20100407 22:11:50< gabba> grr... let me catch up on the few lines I missed with the log
20100407 22:12:34< gabba> ok done
20100407 22:12:47< happygrue> noy_: I agree that it is quite complicated.  It is still hard to visualize exactly how it would all change
20100407 22:12:58< noy_> thats why I asked you to look at it G
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20100407 22:13:27< noy_> nagbot: gabba
20100407 22:13:46< happygrue> and I have some reservations, but as long as it is kept with a minimal interface that isn't really *forcing* the player to plan moves (IE click normally for moves, shift click to add something to a plan queue) I think it will get some use and not bother other people.
20100407 22:13:54< noy_> nagbot: gabba ?
20100407 22:13:55< nagbot> gabba : http://wiki.wesnoth.org//GSoC-SpriteSheets_Gabba
20100407 22:13:56< nagbot> gabba : http://wiki.wesnoth.org//GSoC-WesnothWhiteboard_Gabba
20100407 22:14:24< noy_> happygrue: I agree, its going to be an adjustment
20100407 22:16:12< gabba> well, we can still make the decision to have planning off by default
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20100407 22:16:37< noy__> weird... got kicked
20100407 22:16:44< Crab_> gabba: a better way is to redo the tutorial, add info about planned moves, and then ask 'do you want it to be the default ?'
20100407 22:16:49< gabba> and since it seems that I'm gonna go out of my way to keep undo after all, they won't see any difference
20100407 22:16:59< gabba> Crab_: that could work, too
20100407 22:17:27< Rhonda> Ivanovic: I'm fine with moving stuff that generates heavy I/O and on the other hand is considered not that important to the second disk indeed, yes.
20100407 22:17:59< noy__> question is whether the adjustment creates serious disruption in a player's ability to manage, or is the system flexible enough to allow different behavior to mitigate disruption.
20100407 22:18:45< schumi> Crab_: oh, right. I want to submit my proposal to google, and the page asks the same questions of the wiki. Should I copy the wiki or place a link to the wiki page, so I can update it easily?
20100407 22:18:46< gabba> noy_: the question is very valid, but also most abstract :P
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20100407 22:19:29< happygrue> I agree that it is abstract, but it is also important ;)
20100407 22:19:31< Crab_> schumi: just link to wiki
20100407 22:19:43< happygrue> Crab_: and redoing the tutorial would be fine I imagine?
20100407 22:19:44< Crab_> schumi: and don't forget to mention your irc nickname, e.g. in the proposal title
20100407 22:19:49< noy__> I think we can take educated guesses about that based on our experience gabba 
20100407 22:19:53< Crab_> happygrue: tutorial needs some love anyway.
20100407 22:19:59< happygrue> Crab_: I agree
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20100407 22:24:46< gabba> personally I think there'll be a big gain in flexibility, but perhaps a bit of annoyance at the extra visual clutter and the "less natural" unit movement, if you use Execute All a lot
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20100407 22:25:59< happygrue> gabba: I would guess that in practice "ex all" would get used largely (only?) for early turn moves and for retreats (no attacks)
20100407 22:26:00< gabba> also, I think that getting the interface to work on a battle line where units try to exchange places and do tight manoeuvers will take some work
20100407 22:26:21< happygrue> or for the tail end of a string of moves that you have walked through I guess
20100407 22:26:44< happygrue> gabba: I fear it will never be useful there, but that is probably ok
20100407 22:26:52< happygrue> if if it is useful there then great :)
20100407 22:27:14< gabba> happygrue: dunno, what about players that make a bunch of moves with delay shroud updates and then make an attack?
20100407 22:27:47< gabba> happygrue: then I guess the equivalent with my system would be to plan all moves, execute all, and then plan or directly execute attacks
20100407 22:27:56< happygrue> gabba: those players don't know what they are doing anyway :D
20100407 22:28:00< happygrue> j/k
20100407 22:28:10< happygrue> I don't know.  Players do all sorts of things
20100407 22:28:28< happygrue> gabba: right
20100407 22:28:41< gabba> happygrue: lol, if it's considered so bad we don't have to support it maybe, but I won't risk judging that
20100407 22:28:42< happygrue> if players want to do moves before combat that is fine and they still can
20100407 22:28:49< happygrue> gabba: no, it's fine
20100407 22:29:09< happygrue> in general you do the most risky moves first and work backward, so moves without combat you would want to do last
20100407 22:29:17< happygrue> but of course it never works that way in practice
20100407 22:29:36< happygrue> you want to move certian things so you don't rforget them, or moves you KNOW you will make even if you miss with everything
20100407 22:30:27< gabba> "move certian things so you don't rforget them" not sure, but I think it's a side effect of the bad undo system, you shouldn't have to do it with planned moves
20100407 22:30:33< happygrue> the point is to ideally have a system that doesn't interfere with how a player wants to play
20100407 22:30:41< happygrue> and let the players use it or not
20100407 22:31:24< happygrue> gabba: maybe a bit, there is also always the chance you will forgot your own plan for a unit and attack with it when you really wanted it to move somewhere and cover your leader
20100407 22:31:26< happygrue> or whatever
20100407 22:31:36< happygrue> but again, allowing for a plan for that unit might be nice
20100407 22:31:43< happygrue> some players would love it, and some wouldn't care.
20100407 22:32:50< gabba> happygrue: "forgetting a plan" seems hard when the plan is a big red arrow (or whatever it becomes when artists take hold of the visual aspect)
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20100407 22:33:18< happygrue> gabba: yes, I would consider that an advantage.  I was talking about the current system.
20100407 22:33:25< gabba> happygrue: ok
20100407 22:33:42< happygrue> I have moved units that I forgot I needed elsewhere before.
20100407 22:33:59< happygrue> and then I die.  Such is Wesnoth.  ;)
20100407 22:34:28< gabba> happygrue: yes, Wesnoth can be cruel sometimes -- and I don't play high-level multiplayer
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20100407 22:38:19< timotei21> hey Crab_ 
20100407 22:38:27< Crab_> hi, timotei21
20100407 22:38:45< timotei21> how can I move the contents of the eclipse_plugin one level deeper? so I can upload the xtext things in the same utils/eclipse_plugin
20100407 22:38:56< timotei21> svn move?
20100407 22:39:11< Crab_> timotei21: yes, svn move can work on two urls
20100407 22:39:19< timotei21> do I need to create the target dir?
20100407 22:39:37< Johannes13> Wesnoth crashes at a specific scn (reproducaple). My stderr.txt says "20100407 22:27:37 error filesystem: Trying to open file with empty name."
20100407 22:39:44< Johannes13> that can cause this?
20100407 22:39:48< Johannes13> *what
20100407 22:39:57< gabba> happygrue: overall I think the new workflow would be 1. plan all obvious moves and those you don't want to forget
20100407 22:40:00< Crab_> timotei21: no
20100407 22:40:24< timotei21> ok
20100407 22:40:28< Crab_> timotei21: but I don't think that it'll get your intentions correct if you try to move a file into its own subdir
20100407 22:40:49< Crab_> timotei21: maybe, mkdir utils/java ? and then move to it ?
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20100407 22:40:59< timotei21> yes, it's ok like that
20100407 22:41:35< noy__> gabba: I really question whether you need to "remember a plan"
20100407 22:41:52< noy__> alot of players' plans change radically during a game
20100407 22:42:00< noy__> due to the outcome of combat.
20100407 22:42:15< gabba> happygrue: 2. plan most manoeuvers and attacks on the battle front -- usually there's a lot to adjust there as you try to maximize damage, terrain cover etc
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20100407 22:42:21< noy__> Thats actually a key skill of the game, rapid adaptation to changing circumstances 
20100407 22:42:38< boucman> hey all
20100407 22:42:39< gabba> noy__: I was going by what happygrue tells me about his playing style
20100407 22:42:45< gabba> hey boucman
20100407 22:43:05< noy__> I think him and I would agree on that point
20100407 22:43:14< timotei21> Crab_, do I need to checkout the svn with svn+ssh to authenticate?
20100407 22:43:25< timotei21> or I can swtich from the current checkout
20100407 22:43:42< Johannes13> "20100407 22:27:37 error filesystem: Trying to open file with empty name." << what can cause this?
20100407 22:43:42< gabba> noy__: either way, visually seeing you last plan on the map would help your thought process as you change plans
20100407 22:43:45< noy__> gabba: I think it would benefit your proposal immensely if you spent some time playing on the MP server. 
20100407 22:44:03< Crab_> timotei21: svn switch will work
20100407 22:44:08< noy__> and get a sense of how its done at a high level skill.
20100407 22:44:25< gabba> noy__: maybe I could watch a replay or two, but with final exams coming up, playing is pretty much out of the question
20100407 22:44:48< noy__> Thats not going to indicate anything 
20100407 22:44:58< gabba> noy__: I'll have more time from may 1st on, that's after the student acceptation date however
20100407 22:45:36< noy__> Well, observing a game would give you an idea 
20100407 22:45:55< noy__> and talking to players, if only for half an hour or so
20100407 22:46:40< gabba> noy__: well, actually I could play I guess, but I definitely can't play, discuss a lot on IRC *and* submit a code prototype for some of this interface stuff as Crab_ and boucman were suggesting
20100407 22:46:45< CIA-64> noyga * r42049 /branches/1.8/ (5 files in 4 dirs): French translation update
20100407 22:47:25< noy__> I would suggest you just observe a game with some good players and chat with them
20100407 22:47:28 * Crab_ thinks that the c++ can wait a bit
20100407 22:47:29< gabba> noy__: so I'm not sure where to spend my limited time, since opinions seem to differ about what's more important to get accpted
20100407 22:47:42< boucman> gabba: hehe
20100407 22:47:51< gabba> boucman: heh
20100407 22:48:36< gabba> noy__: then, you have Sirp saying "show us you can program and we'll find you a job to do, we don't care that much if your proposal is good"
20100407 22:48:36< boucman> not sure what to advise at this point...
20100407 22:49:00< noy__> Well here's my assessment based on our discussions. Your proposal is innovative and very good, but it has issues. I suspect the source of them is based on your unfamiliarity with how the game is played among the individuals who use the program the most. 
20100407 22:49:25< happygrue> gabba: if you could also find time to wash some dishes over at my place I would appreciate it.
20100407 22:49:44< gabba> happygrue: hey, while I am at it why not 
20100407 22:49:47< gabba> :P
20100407 22:50:12< noy__> If you spent a bit of time observing games among these players I think it would give you a better idea of why myself and happygrue have concerns
20100407 22:50:22< noy__> and that would improve your proposal immensely
20100407 22:50:48< gabba> noy__: not that it matters, but I think that the majority of players play exclusively campaigns ;)
20100407 22:51:12< noy__> Yes, but I'd suspect few of them play constantly
20100407 22:51:16< noy__> day after day the same campaign.
20100407 22:51:24 * happygrue is mostly afk for a bit
20100407 22:51:40< shadowmaster> I thought most players played both MP and SP
20100407 22:51:42< noy__> many of the people on the mp server have played for 3+ years on average 3 nights of the week.
20100407 22:53:03< gabba> shadowmaster: well, did you compare the downloads with the total of MP players? I'd suspect most players never connect to the MP server -- but anyways, I'd like to cater to the active player, so noy__ 's suggestion sounds good
20100407 22:53:35< gabba> noy__: wow, that's a lot of play indeed
20100407 22:53:40< noy__> gabba: we've tended to make development decisions based on the core players who use multiplayer.
20100407 22:53:57< gabba> noy__: I expected that answer, that's usually how it works
20100407 22:54:23< noy__> Not really, I think many games aim to entry or mid level
20100407 22:54:44< gabba> noy__: with open-source games, not with games that aim to sell
20100407 22:55:11< noy__> Oh, I think it happens for some open source games
20100407 22:55:20< noy__> but I agree its less common
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20100407 22:56:37< gabba> noy__: so, I'll try and play or at least watch some games
20100407 22:57:02< gabba> noy__: however what outcome can we expect from that for my proposal?
20100407 22:57:06< Sirp> Upthorn: are you around?
20100407 22:57:56< gabba> noy__: because I won't have time to heavily rework it, so the benefits would be minor adjustments here and there
20100407 22:58:22< CIA-64> noyga * r42050 /trunk/ (5 files in 4 dirs): French translation update
20100407 22:59:07< gabba> noy__: in the end you devs will still have to judge whether the base principles seem sound and do a vote of confidence if you think implementing this is worth the try
20100407 22:59:11< noy__> I'm not sure gabba, but I think it will be beneficial. If you later tweak your proposal with changes in how it operates, based on your experiences that would be a success. 
20100407 22:59:51< noy__> I think the proposal is fine as a general idea, but that says nothing about implementation
20100407 22:59:53< boucman> gabba: noy__ will probably disagree on me on that, but I consider your proposal robust enough at this point for a proposal (emphasis : for a proposal) i.e I think if you are accepted there is enough coding on the backed to do before freezing the UI and you will have time to study/discuss before freezing that
20100407 23:00:14< noy__> boucman: no I agree with you on that
20100407 23:00:56< Ivanovic> Sirp: both Upth and Upthorn are idle for some time (>17h) now
20100407 23:01:22< timotei21> Crab_, well, I've got some windows "authentication" problems with svn+ssh, need to install them tomorrow
20100407 23:01:27< timotei21> gotta go now
20100407 23:01:28< Sirp> Ivanovic: okay.
20100407 23:01:31< timotei21> Good night guys
20100407 23:01:33< Crab_> timotei21: ok
20100407 23:01:44< gabba> night timotei21
20100407 23:01:55-!- timotei21 [~timotei21@188.24.4.105] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
20100407 23:02:09< noy__> but I don't want to have to constantly critique and explain player behavior (in regards to how it affects his patch) when it just might be easier if gabba just learned how people played and programmed it accordingly
20100407 23:03:28< noy__> Also gabba don't take this as personal criticism; its an issue with alot of developers in this community. 
20100407 23:04:56< icelus> i actually never looked at wesnoth before because i don't play it
20100407 23:05:07< icelus> but i guess it is possible to help out to some extent even if you don't play
20100407 23:05:43< gabba> noy__: I'm a pretty good SP player IMO (finish most campaigns at Normal without backtracking too much), and my MP experience is pretty limited, as I said before
20100407 23:05:59< gabba> noy__: so I agree that playing would be beneficial
20100407 23:06:46< noy__> I know, but I think you'll witness a very significant difference in skill among MP players. 
20100407 23:06:55< noy__> especially some of the top tier ones. 
20100407 23:07:15< boucman> noy__: you should do a quick game with gabba (no fow) to show him :) 
20100407 23:07:29< gabba> noy__: what about this: as I said on my personal page I have an extra month before the GSoC starts, so I'll make sure to play, say, at least 10 games on the official server
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20100407 23:07:43< noy__> pfft, you can play ten games in three days 
20100407 23:08:02< noy__> are you free friday night?
20100407 23:08:14< gabba> noy__: the number can be adjusted... 'twas an example noy
20100407 23:08:38< gabba> noy__: I can free myself friday night, yes
20100407 23:08:52< noy__> Its about 6pm there right now?
20100407 23:09:03< gabba> 5pm 
20100407 23:09:32< noy__> about 930ish?
20100407 23:09:33< noy__> your time?
20100407 23:09:52< gabba> 9:30 you mean? that would work
20100407 23:09:57< noy__> I might not be on, but jb and wintermute/happygrue might be
20100407 23:09:59< noy__> yes
20100407 23:10:19 * boucman would gladly observe that game... 
20100407 23:10:30< gabba> noy__: ok, I'll look for you or those two, and prepare to die in atrocious suffering
20100407 23:10:46< noy__> we'll probably play a 3v3 and you'll be on our team
20100407 23:10:46< boucman> brief suffering ;)
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20100407 23:11:08< noy__> be aware that we'll just tell you how to play the first few games and you'll be expected to implement things
20100407 23:11:23< noy__> that will give you a sense of how its supposed to be played
20100407 23:11:44< noy__> or how we see the game
20100407 23:11:54< gabba> noy__: well, I like to learn -- I wonder how I play actually is far from the way it's supposed to be played
20100407 23:12:37< noy__> Most people with little or no mp experience but sp skills tend to have a similar skill level
20100407 23:13:08< gabba> noy__: so that's a good plan -- and I maintain my offer to submit to intensive MP training during May
20100407 23:13:13< chains> it wasn't until after I beat the first campaign that I realized damage wasn't random =) 
20100407 23:13:38< noy__> They make similar mistakes, they miscalculate odds and aren't able to judge the overall strategic environment or the economic status
20100407 23:13:39< gabba> noy__: I imagine that not having to focus on upgrading you units and saving gold for the next scenario makes a big difference
20100407 23:13:51< noy__> you can upgrade units?
20100407 23:14:24< gabba> noy__: yeah, you know when the units magically glow and transform into their lvl 2 couterparts?
20100407 23:14:30< gabba> noy__: that
20100407 23:14:34< noy__> I've never seen that before. 
20100407 23:14:38< chains> lol
20100407 23:14:44< gabba> noy__: lol
20100407 23:15:08< gabba> noy__: I'm sure you use it as a healing device sometimes
20100407 23:15:20< noy__> you mean heal right?
20100407 23:15:27< noy__> the thing that the shaman has?
20100407 23:15:33< gabba> noy__: haha
20100407 23:15:53< noy__> In all seriousness though, I think the workflow for a mp gamer is quite different and you'd maybe be able to understand the concerns that happygrue and myself has
20100407 23:16:02< noy__> have*
20100407 23:16:30< noy__> stuff like having the opportunity to see multiunit CTKs is huge...
20100407 23:16:44< gabba> noy__: good, that's an interesting perspective, I just wished I had more time
20100407 23:16:47< noy__> most of us do mental math to calculate it now, and we're often wrong. 
20100407 23:17:09< gabba> noy__: FYI I wasn't planning to add multi-unit CTK during the GSoC
20100407 23:17:29< noy__> no but it opens up an opportunity for someone to implement it
20100407 23:17:39< gabba> noy__: but my system would make adding it very easy ^what you said
20100407 23:18:21< gabba> ok, gotta go and study now, so see you on friday night then
20100407 23:19:02< gabba> bye everybody
20100407 23:19:05< noy__> no problem... ping me again to remind me
20100407 23:19:28< gabba> noy__: sure, I'll check if you're on irc before
20100407 23:19:45< noy__> I'm actually a bit rusty but jb should be good
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20100407 23:57:05< Crab_> Upthorn: why do you think that it might be a good idea to associate persistence data with a side, in your proposed syntax of persistence.cfg ?
--- Log closed Thu Apr 08 00:00:12 2010