--- Log opened Fri Apr 09 00:00:11 2010
--- Day changed Fri Apr 09 2010
20100409 00:00:11< Crab_> Upthorn: in particular, [set_global_variable] and [get_global_variable] will definitely hit this bug in MP.
20100409 00:00:49< Crab_> chances are, that the bug will be solved by that time,but it might not. and a bit of knowledge about network sync / replay code will not hurt, either.
20100409 00:01:18< Crab_> Upthorn: if you'll have something to add, feel free to comment on the bug page
20100409 00:01:31< Upthorn> Regarding that, I wanted to ask what S, R, and W mean
20100409 00:01:55< Crab_> Upthorn: arbitrary designations made by Ed <icelus>
20100409 00:02:01< Crab_> see his first comment
20100409 00:02:30< Upthorn> OH. gna bug comments are ordered backwards.
20100409 00:02:51< Ivanovic> Upthorn: depends on your settings
20100409 00:02:51< Upthorn> I was reading from the top to the bottom, without noticing the timestamps
20100409 00:02:52< Ivanovic> ;)
20100409 00:03:33< Upthorn> by default, then.
20100409 00:04:34 * Upthorn changes option and reloads
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20100409 00:11:01< fakedrake> hi all
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20100409 00:11:34< Crab_> hi, fakedrake
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20100409 00:13:28< Crab_> hi, fakedrake
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20100409 00:20:33< CIA-58> crab * r42059 /trunk/src/ai/default/ai.cpp: simplified code
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20100409 00:25:08< fakedrake> i m doing the [have_unit] thingie from the easycoding
20100409 00:25:26< fakedrake> but with this connection i cant hope to upload it before i go back home
20100409 00:25:37< fakedrake> on monday
20100409 00:25:49< fakedrake> i also fixed my aptch on ifdef
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20100409 00:43:59< nagbot> Hello from your friendly bot!
20100409 00:44:00< nagbot> Everyone who wants to participate in GSoC with Wesnoth:
20100409 00:44:01< nagbot> Fill out the application form at google
20100409 00:44:02< nagbot> http://socghop.appspot.com/gsoc/student/apply/google/gsoc2010
20100409 00:44:03< nagbot> You need to do this until Apr 9th, 19:00 UTC (12:00 PST)
20100409 00:44:04< nagbot> Everyone not enlisted in the google tracker at that time will have *no* chance to participate with Wesnoth as part of summer of code 2010, no matter how good you communicated with us or *whatever* 
20100409 00:44:05< nagbot> Please do this now
20100409 00:44:06< nagbot> Submit patches and prototypes for review, so we'll see how you work.
20100409 00:44:07< nagbot> Join the IRC discussions.
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20100409 00:47:32< gabba> Dear nagbot, please ask Crab_ to rewire your circuits. I think you meant to say "You need to do this *before*", and not "You need to do this until". :)
20100409 00:47:42< Bocom> heh, I wanted to participate, but I don't have any good idea for a project
20100409 00:48:10< Crab_> gabba: :)
20100409 00:48:28< gabba> ;)
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20100409 00:48:39< Crab_> Bocom: well, the list of ideas can be found there - http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SummerOfCodeIdeas
20100409 00:49:23< Crab_> Bocom: if you pick an idea and search through the irc logs for the last few weeks, you might be able to find out what's the idea is about
20100409 00:49:51< Crab_> Bocom: so, you still can try :)
20100409 00:53:15< Ivanovic> fakedrake: since you submitted your proposal twice, i marked one of the two as "ineligible"
20100409 00:53:21< Ivanovic> the other one is still there
20100409 00:53:28< Greywhind> Crab_: do you know if anyone is working on the "side-specific results" stuff in easycoding?
20100409 00:53:29< Ivanovic> this is just to keep the list rather clean
20100409 00:55:00< Crab_> Greywhind: no, don't know
20100409 00:55:38< Greywhind> ok.
20100409 00:55:44< Ivanovic> awilkins, ctrlfreak, Greywhind, every other possible GSoC student who has not submitted his/her proposal to google yet: you have not submitted your proposal to google so far
20100409 00:55:45< Crab_> so, feel free to work on it
20100409 00:56:11< Ivanovic> if you want to participate as possible candidate for wesnoth you *have* to submit your proposal to google before the deadline is reached
20100409 00:56:29< Ivanovic> you have only about 20 hours left to do so
20100409 00:56:43< Ivanovic> if due to *whatever* reason you miss this deadline there is no way for you to participate!!!
20100409 00:57:13< Ivanovic> so head to http://socghop.appspot.com/gsoc/student/apply/google/gsoc2010 as soon as possible and enter some info (short project summary and a link to your wiki page are enough!)
20100409 00:57:14< awilkins> Ivanovic: Thanks for the notice should be in tonight before I head to bed : )
20100409 00:57:20< Ivanovic> you just have to be listed at google!
20100409 00:57:50< Bocom> hmm
20100409 00:57:57< Ivanovic> awilkins: if it is not submitted in the next 20h, that is till Apr 9th, 19:00 UTC (12:00 PST), to be more precise, you got no chance to participate *at all*
20100409 00:58:09< Ivanovic> yes, this is a deadline which will not be extended
20100409 00:58:41< awilkins> Ivanovic: you just want a link to the wiki? so I don't need any technical information in GSoC proposal?
20100409 00:58:47< Ivanovic> (just look for the UTC time, the PST one might be wrong or whatever or ask the lovely bot in #gsoc using !next )
20100409 00:59:03< Ivanovic> awilkins: all required at google is submitting something
20100409 00:59:23< Ivanovic> if all info is in the wiki it is enough if you write a short project summary and provide a link to a page in our wiki
20100409 00:59:30< Crab_> awilkins: yes, just a link to a wiki (and an irc nick in a title is a good thing)
20100409 00:59:48< Crab_> awilkins: plus 1-2 sentences to describe your project
20100409 00:59:50< awilkins> Ivanovic: oh okay, I'll do that now, and I'll have a good wiki by tonight than
20100409 00:59:57< awilkins> Crab_: right : )
20100409 00:59:58< Ivanovic> that is: we will soon do our *real* review of the applications, so the wiki page should not be empty...
20100409 01:00:30< Ivanovic> (yes, we provide feedback and using this you can still adjust things, but most should already have asked us for feedback anyway, right?
20100409 01:00:31< Ivanovic> ;)
20100409 01:01:51< Bocom> less than a day to throw together an idea proposal, huh...
20100409 01:02:22< Crab_> Bocom: quite doable, as you have several examples for every idea.
20100409 01:03:06< Crab_> Bocom: I suggest fetching all the irc logs for wesnoth-dev since Mar18, concating them into a single file, and searching it for useful info
20100409 01:03:29< Ivanovic> Bocom: yes, this is a nontrival task and requires some efford
20100409 01:03:42< Bocom> Ivanovic, of course it does
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20100409 01:05:21< Bocom> it's more that I don't know if I am capable of doing any of the ideas
20100409 01:06:32< Crab_> Bocom: several years of C++ experience should be enough to do most of the projects without big issues.
20100409 01:07:19< Bocom> yes, and that's something that I unfortunately don't have
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20100409 01:09:04< Ivanovic> to be honest: problematic combination
20100409 01:09:34< Ivanovic> if you were around some weeks earlier it might have worked out well, you can always learn things while getting used to stuff
20100409 01:09:48< Ivanovic> but the day before the deadline of project submission, hmmm, hard
20100409 01:10:17< Crab_> Bocom: but you are welcome to try anyway. note: you don't need to get into gsoc to contribute to wesnoth, you can just get the source and start hacking around. one of the best ways to learn c++, by the way :)
20100409 01:11:14< Bocom> Ivanovic, yeah, I know. I wish that I had found out about the student application timeline a long time before; I got to know about it two days ago
20100409 01:11:18< Ivanovic> learning is IMO easiest anyway, when you do something for fun and with your own time table, outside of a fixed situation as in gsoc where you (at least partly) do some hired work
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20100409 01:15:27< awilkins> I think the hardest part about getting accepted for wesnoth's GSoC is having a good outline of what you PLAN to do not necessarily how well you do it. 
20100409 01:16:27< Ivanovic> oh, getting accepted depends on various things
20100409 01:16:44< Ivanovic> a) you need to have a good plan what you want to do (this includes having an idea what you are up to)
20100409 01:16:46< Crab_> yes, outline is important. and there should be focus on particular results, 'deliverables', to make sure everybody understands what you're trying to achieve
20100409 01:16:59< Ivanovic> b) you need to be able to do what you plan to do (and show us that this is the case)
20100409 01:17:24< Ivanovic> c) you need to communicate with us in a healthy manner
20100409 01:17:38< Ivanovic> (as in "we won't accept a student we can't work with")
20100409 01:19:20< awilkins> right, I mean I'm of the mind where you can do anything as long as there's a plan, so I see the plan as being more important. 
20100409 01:19:52< Crab_> yes, but not an exact plan, but more like a 'framework'
20100409 01:19:55< Ivanovic> experience tends to show that even the best plan might have to be adjusted while trying to make it come true
20100409 01:20:08< Crab_> as in "you'll never know what gui2 bug will hit you tomorrow" :)
20100409 01:20:19< Ivanovic> so it is often better to have a good skelleton of what you are about to do while filling out the details when you come to them
20100409 01:21:36< awilkins> right, I agree.
20100409 01:21:50< awilkins> Crab_: hopefully I won't be dealing with gui2 : p
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20100409 01:22:13< Crab_> well, s/gui2/your_favorite_subsystem :)
20100409 01:22:29< Crab_> and it's better now :)
20100409 01:23:37< awilkins> Crab_: well that's good haha
20100409 01:26:57< awilkins> Ivanovic: I just submitted my google proposal.
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20100409 01:35:53< Ivanovic> awilkins: okay, it is submitted to google and i linked it in your wiki page, so that you submitted proposal appears at http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SummerOfCodeStudents_IRC#Table
20100409 01:37:22< AI0867> mordante: http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=29476
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20100409 01:37:44< awilkins> Ivanovic: thanks : )
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20100409 01:44:41< Ivanovic> time for me to head off to bed, n8
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20100409 01:50:59-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: GSoC: proposals are to be submitted to Google before 9th April 19:00 UTC. Also, when your wiki page is ready, ask us to review it. | 84 bugs, 264 feature requests, 15 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
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20100409 01:53:55< CIA-58> ai0867 * r42060 /trunk/ (10 files in 6 dirs): Side-specific recall cost
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20100409 02:05:34< Greywhind> i've submitted my proposal to Google.
20100409 02:05:46< Greywhind> i still plan to add to the wiki page further tonight
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20100409 02:06:31< Greywhind> http://socghop.appspot.com/gsoc/student_proposal/show/google/gsoc2010/npartlan/t127077146530
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20100409 03:08:04< CIA-58> shadowmaster * r42061 /trunk/misc/fortunes/wesnoth: A cookie of my own
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20100409 04:07:37< endercoaster> Official proposal submitted. Still need to add mock-ups for my GUI elements. I was mostly done with that, but my linux partition had a kernel crash :-(
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20100409 04:55:41< gabba> endercoaster: did you by chance get hit by this ubuntu bug? https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/grub2/+bug/439784
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20100409 05:09:25< endercoaster> gabba: No. We had a power outage on campus, which resulted in the computer turning off during a disk check
20100409 05:11:46< gabba> endercoaster: ouch, that sucks
20100409 05:12:09< endercoaster> biggest problem is needing to redownload and reupdate the repository
20100409 05:12:13< endercoaster> err... rebuild
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20100409 05:34:53< shadowmaster> "My name is Noy: you may remember me from such memorable threads as RNG and me, and My Little Pony Strikes Again."
20100409 05:35:02< shadowmaster> ROFL
20100409 05:36:36< Blarumyrran> Strikes again
20100409 05:36:50< Blarumyrran> That's a combo of Empire strikes back and Herbie rides again?
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20100409 05:42:12< shadowmaster> possibly
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20100409 05:44:00< nagbot> Hi!
20100409 05:44:01< nagbot> Everyone who wants to participate in GSoC with Wesnoth:
20100409 05:44:02< nagbot> Tell Google about your application!
20100409 05:44:03< nagbot> http://socghop.appspot.com/gsoc/student/apply/google/gsoc2010
20100409 05:44:04< nagbot> You need to do this until Apr 9th, 19:00 UTC (12:00 PST)
20100409 05:44:05< nagbot> you can still improve afterwards, but how wonderful your proposal is, if not in google's database we can't accept it
20100409 05:44:06< nagbot> You have been warned.
20100409 05:44:07< nagbot> Submit patches and prototypes for review, so we'll see how you work.
20100409 05:44:08< nagbot> Join the IRC discussions.
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20100409 06:14:36< AI0867> for anyone who uses MSVS: http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=420560#p420560
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20100409 10:38:34< Ivanovic> moin
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20100409 10:44:00< nagbot> Hello from your friendly bot!
20100409 10:44:01< nagbot> GSoC 2010 candidates:
20100409 10:44:02< nagbot> Register your proposal with Google
20100409 10:44:03< nagbot> http://socghop.appspot.com/gsoc/student/apply/google/gsoc2010
20100409 10:44:04< nagbot> You need to do this until Apr 9th, 19:00 UTC (12:00 PST)
20100409 10:44:05< nagbot> you can still improve afterwards, but how wonderful your proposal is, if not in google's database we can't accept it
20100409 10:44:06< nagbot> Please do this now
20100409 10:44:07< nagbot> The more good patches you submit, the better
20100409 10:44:08< nagbot> Talk about your ideas on the IRC
20100409 11:00:43< Ivanovic> just <10 hours left for all SoC applicants to submit their proposal
20100409 11:03:48< Upthorn> yup.
20100409 11:04:25 * Upthorn begins attempt at http://wiki.wesnoth.org/NotSoEasyCoding#A_change_to_allied_healing
20100409 11:05:57< Ivanovic> (those that have already submitted are fine, though fine tuning of the proposal is always allowed and submitting code samples (aka patches) is *very* welcome)
20100409 11:06:11< Upthorn> I realize that I don't have to have all patches and everything submitted by 19:00 GMT, but
20100409 11:06:47< Ivanovic> we will most likely go through all proposals (that were submitted to google) at least once over the weekend to provide some basic feedback in the google tracker, too
20100409 11:07:24< Ivanovic> once we have gone through the google tracker it would be nice if you left a note there when you updated the proposal
20100409 11:07:34< Ivanovic> (so that we don't miss proposal updates)
20100409 11:10:38< Upthorn> "there"? Do you mean here?
20100409 11:10:44< Ivanovic> in the google tracker
20100409 11:10:50< Upthorn> oh right.
20100409 11:11:01< Upthorn> mentors get notified too.
20100409 11:11:04< Ivanovic> we will leave a comment in there after reading through the proposal with possible things to improved
20100409 11:11:33< Ivanovic> and this way we can keep track of the updates from our students
20100409 11:11:50< Ivanovic> with the wiki we would have to monitor a little much
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20100409 12:09:39 * Upthorn appears to have set a totally unrealistic challenge for himself
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20100409 12:11:48< Ivanovic> really?
20100409 12:17:59< Ivanovic> mordante, Rhonda: using the debian patch for libsdl i still get the warning messages in trunk, but clicking seems to work all the times now
20100409 12:18:12< Ivanovic> (yes, the patch was included in libsdl in gentoo)
20100409 12:20:39< Rhonda> Wow, they are fast. :)
20100409 12:22:01< Ivanovic> adding a patch in gentoo is basically a oneline change in the ebuild and then adding the patch itself into the rep
20100409 12:22:31< Ivanovic> yes, this saves time since there is no compiling on a compile farm required
20100409 12:22:32< Ivanovic> ;)
20100409 12:23:08< Rhonda> adding a patch in debian is basically dropping the patch file in debian/patches and adding its name to debian/patches/series
20100409 12:23:26< Rhonda> ;)
20100409 12:23:37< Ivanovic> sounds rather identical
20100409 12:23:48< Ivanovic> though you still have to have the packages rebuilt
20100409 12:24:35< Rhonda> and how is gentoo magically done without rebuilt? :)
20100409 12:24:58< Ivanovic> easy, the users have to build things themselves
20100409 12:25:03< Ivanovic> it is a sourcebased distribution
20100409 12:25:26< Ivanovic> so the change is faster in the tree and just depends on the users machines speed to get it "working"
20100409 12:26:33< Rhonda> and thus doesn't gain any testing at all?
20100409 12:26:57< Ivanovic> the testing is done by the one maintaining the package before adding the patch/change for everyone
20100409 12:27:15< Rhonda> So the one maintaining the package does the rebuilt anyway.
20100409 12:27:25< Rhonda> So there isn't much speed involved.
20100409 12:27:28< Ivanovic> every user does rebuild things anyway
20100409 12:27:51< Rhonda> … besides that the speed "gain" is doubled upon the maintainer and the users.
20100409 12:28:24< Rhonda> Your system isn't slow anymore because it doesn't run non-optimized code, it's slow now because it compiles all the time.
20100409 12:28:35< Ivanovic> nah, not all the time
20100409 12:28:38< Ivanovic> ;)
20100409 12:28:50< Ivanovic> and the speed difference due to compiler optimizations is most likely not this much
20100409 12:29:05< Ivanovic> the main difference is that you are a lot more free regarding the dependencies you really want to have
20100409 12:29:21< Ivanovic> the system is a lot more fine granular than most huge distributions
20100409 12:29:31< Ivanovic> if the user *wants* it to differ, it is possible
20100409 12:29:50< Rhonda> It only makes sense if the user *wants* to differ. IMHO. :)
20100409 12:29:56< Ivanovic> correct
20100409 12:30:22< Rhonda> … or rather, if the user *needs* to. Because often the user does want things they don't even know that they don't need. :)
20100409 12:31:14< freim> Ivanovic: my experience with aggresive optimized builds of wesnoth it that it makes it crash :)
20100409 12:31:34< Ivanovic> freim: ah, that is ages ago
20100409 12:31:54< Ivanovic> there are some people these days (not me) who do use -O3 builds and don't have additional problems
20100409 12:32:03< freim> yes, it's been a while since I used to optimize with -O3 now
20100409 12:32:39< freim> I got the feeling no one had tried it before I did, since I got numerous segfaults
20100409 12:32:47< Ivanovic> Rhonda: one huge extra benefit of gentoo is that it is really easy to use your package manager to maintain builds from git/svn
20100409 12:33:41< Ivanovic> i just have the build recipe eg for mesa git master, libdrm and xf86-video-ati and update them regulary without having to wait for a new release to see some improvements in my graphics stack
20100409 12:34:01< Ivanovic> freim: i think the reason at that time was that gcc was too aggressive
20100409 12:34:15< Rhonda> I got lazy. I rather like to depend on others to compile stuff for me and shout at them when they break it. :)
20100409 12:34:39< freim> Ivanovic: possibly
20100409 12:34:56< Ivanovic> Rhonda: ah, shouting is so, hmmm, exhausting
20100409 12:35:11< Ivanovic> does strange things to your voice when done too often
20100409 12:35:20< freim> I'm mostly just waiting (with regards to xf86-video-ati)
20100409 12:35:49< freim> when I can run wine+Wow with it I will buy an ATI card, until then it will have to be nvidia
20100409 12:36:19< Rhonda> Ivanovic: Sure. But I found out that I don't want to (and simply can't) care about everything anymore myself, and thus want to be able to depend to some degree on the work of others.
20100409 12:36:55< Ivanovic> Rhonda: perfectly reasonable solution for servers and all the likes
20100409 12:37:09< Ivanovic> freim: hmm, no idea how far WoW is atm
20100409 12:37:20< Ivanovic> freim: that is i can perfectly play eg world of goo
20100409 12:37:52< Ivanovic> but some other games still have problems, like eg sacred or ankh (they are dead slow, something like 2spf)
20100409 12:38:16< freim> Ivanovic: according to the status page it is at "garbage" so not to well it seems
20100409 12:40:55< Ivanovic> hmm, the latest test results are with the now ancient mesa 7.7 (7.8.1 is out already)
20100409 12:41:03< Ivanovic> might have changed significantly
20100409 12:42:48< freim> perhaps
20100409 12:45:46< stikonas> so four months old is now ancient :)
20100409 12:46:17< Ivanovic> stikonas: on a bleeding edge distribution: yes
20100409 12:46:18< Ivanovic> ;)
20100409 12:46:41< Ivanovic> sure, things are different for debian stable, but hey...
20100409 12:46:47< stikonas> Ivanovic: on Kubuntu which is not bleeding edge I use mesa 7.9-devel :)
20100409 12:48:11< stikonas> maybe using devel version is not as important now as it was before. Not much is done now in r600 driver
20100409 12:48:41< stikonas> probably everybody is waiting for r600 gallium driver
20100409 12:51:08< Ivanovic> uhm, looking at the git logs every now and then a lot of stuff happens in classic mesa that is relevant for r600, too
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20100409 13:38:47< Achilles> hi
20100409 13:38:53< Ivanovic> hi Achilles
20100409 13:39:22< Achilles> i am writing a proposal now...is it too late
20100409 13:39:23< Achilles> ?
20100409 13:39:30< Ivanovic> it is very late
20100409 13:39:34< Ivanovic> but not too late
20100409 13:39:56< Achilles> hmmm...
20100409 13:40:18< Achilles> i'll still submit it; the rest is upto you guys
20100409 13:40:36< Ivanovic> no, the rest is still up to you
20100409 13:40:45< Ivanovic> since the proposal most likely won't be "perfect" right from the start
20100409 13:40:57< Ivanovic> and you have to show us that you are capable of implementing your proposal, too
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20100409 13:42:44< Achilles> okk...i'll try my best
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20100409 13:43:26< Ivanovic> and yeah, you are welcome to ask questions
20100409 13:46:07< Achilles> thanx
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20100409 13:46:50< fendrin> hi
20100409 13:46:55< Achilles> i am interested in extending lua support for the wesnoth ai
20100409 13:47:12< fendrin> hi Achilles
20100409 13:47:21< fendrin> Achilles: In context of gsoc?
20100409 13:47:44< Ivanovic> hi fendrin
20100409 13:47:50< fendrin> hi Ivanovic
20100409 13:47:58< Rhonda> fendrin: Very much sounds like, in connection to what Achilles said before. ;)
20100409 13:48:25< Achilles> yes
20100409 13:49:02< Achilles> hi fendrin
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20100409 14:23:39< Ivanovic> hi boucman
20100409 14:23:51< boucman> hey
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20100409 14:45:27< Soliton> Upthorn: note that that allied healing change is in no way guaranteed to be accepted. i'm surprised it was added to that wiki page...
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20100409 14:50:02< Soliton> "This page shows projects which are considered a good idea by the developers but which have nobody working on them so far. If you think you've got the required skill for a task go on, implement it and you've got a high chance that it'll be accepted."
20100409 14:50:16< Soliton> ... i'll remove that healing proposal.
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20100409 15:12:51< fendrin> http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=29422
20100409 15:13:08< fendrin> ^looks pretty much strait forward coding task. Can I go for it?
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20100409 15:17:18< fendrin> I ask because It would modify the user interface.
20100409 15:17:30< boucman> the idea is sound, looking into the whole thread
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20100409 15:18:20< fendrin> The question is, does the easy naive implementation, just doing the same for enemy units as it is done for own units good enough. 
20100409 15:18:32< boucman> fendrin: I don't like the proposed UI..
20100409 15:18:46< fendrin> I don't want a ui either.
20100409 15:18:54< fendrin> Just the normal dialogue we are used to.
20100409 15:19:02< boucman> that's what I call a UI, 
20100409 15:19:26< boucman> more specifically, the part I don't like it the dialog "please select attacker, please select defender"
20100409 15:19:46< boucman> not sure how to do it in a nice UI way, but that sort of window is not it...
20100409 15:19:52< fendrin> You would have to adjust countless settings.
20100409 15:20:01< fendrin> Time of day.
20100409 15:20:13< fendrin> poison/slow/whatever
20100409 15:20:15< fendrin> terrain
20100409 15:20:35< fendrin> So that window would be quite huge.
20100409 15:21:03< fendrin> I would like to implement what El_Caballero suggests. 
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20100409 15:22:05< fendrin> If a enemy unit is selected (That is already possible) and you select a friendly unit the current dialog pops up but with stats viewing only mode.
20100409 15:22:30< fendrin> The algo to determine the hex attacked from could be reused.
20100409 15:23:03< fendrin> But after a enemy unit is selected the user would need to deselect by rightclick before he can move his units again.
20100409 15:24:38< boucman> yeah, which would be annoying
20100409 15:28:43< Soliton> well, it's not that common to actually select enemy units is it?
20100409 15:29:28< AI0867> fendrin: which of your branches are ready for merging into trunk? editor only?
20100409 15:41:10< Upthorn> hrm. the part of the prposal that I can easily test already seems to work that way anyway.
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20100409 15:42:24< fendrin> AI0867: none. I think.
20100409 15:43:09< fendrin> AI0867: The editor can be merged but expect it to be buggy. The pathfinding part in the editor trunk you worked on with me is fine. But it's not in a seperate branch anymore.
20100409 15:43:46< boucman> fendrin: you can merge (reasonably) bugggy stufff in trunk at this point
20100409 15:44:00< nagbot> Time for a small public service announcement
20100409 15:44:01< nagbot> To all gsoc students:
20100409 15:44:02< nagbot> Please do not forget to submit your application to Google!
20100409 15:44:03< nagbot> http://socghop.appspot.com/gsoc/student/apply/google/gsoc2010
20100409 15:44:04< nagbot> The deadline for the application is friday, april 9th, at 19:00 UTC (12:00 PST)
20100409 15:44:05< nagbot> you can still improve afterwards, but how wonderful your proposal is, if not in google's database we can't accept it
20100409 15:44:06< nagbot> Please do this now
20100409 15:44:07< nagbot> The more good patches you submit, the better
20100409 15:44:08< nagbot> Discuss your ideas here - get important feedback from developers
20100409 15:45:02< Ivanovic> fendrin: what is the status of the discussion regarding "separating 'hand created' and 'editor created' better"?
20100409 15:45:29< Ivanovic> that is: what extra stuff do you save in the map files themselves?
20100409 15:46:01< Ivanovic> one important thing is that in .map files you should put nothing that is meant to be translateable, since our tools just check files ending with .cfg and .lua
20100409 15:47:11< Ivanovic> hmm, once crab is around he should probably add this url to nagbot: http://tinyurl.com/gsoc2010-student-deadline
20100409 15:47:13-!- Zarel [~Zarel@warzone2100/developer/Zarel] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
20100409 15:47:21-!- Ivanovic changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: GSoC: proposals are to be submitted to Google before 9th April 19:00 UTChttp://tinyurl.com/gsoc2010-student-deadline . Also, when your wiki page is ready, ask us to review it. | 84 bugs, 264 feature requests, 15 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
20100409 15:47:34-!- Ivanovic changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: GSoC: proposals are to be submitted to Google before 9th April 19:00 UTC http://tinyurl.com/gsoc2010-student-deadline . Also, when your wiki page is ready, ask us to review it. | 84 bugs, 264 feature requests, 15 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
20100409 15:48:16-!- stikonas_ is now known as stikonas
20100409 15:52:47< Achilles> I have submitted my Student proposal via the GSoC form.
20100409 15:56:33< Ivanovic> Achilles: some (really fast) comments:
20100409 15:56:41< Ivanovic> 1) the timeline won't work
20100409 15:57:07< Ivanovic> you have to get the basic requirements and specification done now, since this is what you have to base your timeline on
20100409 15:57:56< Ivanovic> 2) in the timeline do not forget that you will need some time for testing and the likes, things won't work right of the start, so the "adding sample ai scripts" as the last part up right to the end won't work either
20100409 15:58:45< Ivanovic> as a comparision an extrodinary proposal related to ai work: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SummerOfCodeProposal_AI_Improvement_Crab
20100409 15:59:02< Ivanovic> yes, the proposal was ready before we selected the student, not afterwards
20100409 16:00:48< Upthorn> Oh man. That is great.
20100409 16:00:50< Ivanovic> regarding the time available: you do know that SoC is basically a fulltime task, a 40h/week job (just seeing the times you hope to be around in irc)
20100409 16:01:14< Upthorn> I wish I had thought of tables for goals, milestones, and optional pieces
20100409 16:01:15< Ivanovic> Upthorn: like i said, extrodinary proposal, we don't expect those at all
20100409 16:01:29< Ivanovic> Upthorn: and you still have time to improve your proposal
20100409 16:01:35< Upthorn> I know.
20100409 16:01:59< Ivanovic> that is: it is likely that we will leave comments with "timeline needs more details and smaller steps including devilerables"
20100409 16:03:18< Achilles> ok...i can do the the requirements/specifications now as you have suggested
20100409 16:03:38< Achilles> i have a testing phase
20100409 16:03:45< Achilles> already
20100409 16:04:00< Ivanovic> for creating a good proposal you have to know what you are talking about and got to have an idea what you will implement in the end
20100409 16:04:12< Achilles> the last bit is to show a fully functioning project with some sample data
20100409 16:10:54< Achilles> i will go through Crab's wiki now
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20100409 16:16:29< Upthorn> That brings an interesting question to mind
20100409 16:16:42< Upthorn> was crab already a wesnoth dev when he made that proposal?
20100409 16:18:42< Upthorn> I am wondering because he seems to be the most active mentor, and it is difficult for me to imagine that he has been with wesnoth for only the past year.
20100409 16:19:23-!- euschn [~eugen@wesnoth/developer/euschn] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds]
20100409 16:19:30-!- Crab_ [~Crab_@wesnoth/developer/crab] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100409 16:19:44< Upthorn> Oh hello.
20100409 16:20:32< Crab_> hi
20100409 16:21:18-!- grzybacz [grzywacz@kolos.math.uni.lodz.pl] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100409 16:21:27< Upthorn> I was just asking about you when you joined
20100409 16:21:44< Upthorn> because Ivanovic linked your GSoC proposal from last year
20100409 16:23:19< Upthorn> so I became curious about whether you worked on wesnoth before that proposal, because the way things are working now, it is hard to imagine that you have been part of the team for less than a year.
20100409 16:23:33< boucman> Upthorn: he got commit access before gsoc, but he arrived as a candidate
20100409 16:24:06< Upthorn> that is pretty impressive.
20100409 16:24:58-!- _jbx_ [~jbailey@12.190.80.225] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100409 16:25:32< Crab_> Upthorn: well, I've played wesnoth in 2008, completed all sp campaigns in 1.4.2, so I've got some wesnoth experience. that's why wesnoth caught my attention when I was looking through the list of projects last year - I've recognized the name
20100409 16:26:20< Crab_> Upthorn: but I've not looked at wesnoth's source before
20100409 16:27:23< Zarel_> Crab_: But did you have prior experience with... I think it was C++ that Wesnoth's written in?
20100409 16:28:00< Crab_> Zarel_: yes, >4 years of c++ and java experience, something like that
20100409 16:28:20< Zarel_> Yeah, see, there's where you have the advantage. ;)
20100409 16:29:35< Upthorn> well I hope that's not too much of an advantage over most candidates
20100409 16:29:53< Crab_> Zarel_: well, it takes about half a year to learn c++ to a 'good enough' level, I'd say.
20100409 16:30:19< Crab_> you just need to do different things in it, try to abuse it in various ways
20100409 16:30:23< Zarel_> Upthorn: ? I'd expect most candidates to be proficient in the language they're applying to write in...
20100409 16:30:36< Zarel_> Or at least with a reasonably similar language.
20100409 16:30:52< Upthorn> Zarel_: oh I failed to notice the ;)
20100409 16:39:18-!- johnnyCbad [~johnnyCba@86-46-174-171-dynamic.b-ras1.mgr.mullingar.eircom.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100409 16:44:38< johnnyCbad> Hello there, I'm applying for GSOC and I've been reading some of your ideas, and Westnoth looks like a good fit for me :)
20100409 16:45:08< Crab_> hi, johnnyCbad
20100409 16:45:31< Ivanovic> hi johnnyCbad
20100409 16:45:38< Crab_> johnnyCbad: you're welcome to submit your proposal to google. or to ask questions :)
20100409 16:45:40< Ivanovic> you do know that you are rather late, right?
20100409 16:45:48< johnnyCbad> Crab_, Ivanovic : Hello!
20100409 16:45:49< Ivanovic> the deadline for submitting your proposal is really soon
20100409 16:46:04< johnnyCbad> Yes I realise that
20100409 16:46:45< johnnyCbad> I'm new to gsoc so I was doing a lot of reading into the various organisations
20100409 16:52:56< boucman> to GSoC students : bug 15713 probably qualifies as easy coding, if anybody wants to have aquick look befor I do it, tell me
20100409 16:53:25-!- fkhodkov [~fedor76@ppp-78-24-25-45-bras0.istra.ru] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100409 16:53:44< Crab_> and bug https://gna.org/bugs/?15781 is even easier coding :)
20100409 16:53:48-!- fakedrake [~fakedrake@142.131.68.147] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100409 16:56:06< johnnyCbad> boucman, Crab_ : Surely one bug wouldn't be enough for a gsoc project?
20100409 16:56:28< Crab_> well, bugs are plentiful :)
20100409 16:56:45< Crab_> you fix one, then another, then another, and, you quickly stop counting them :)
20100409 16:57:03< Ivanovic> johnnyCbad: we want to see code samples from students as part of the application
20100409 16:57:09< fendrin> Crab_: What the hell does bug #15781 concern? 
20100409 16:57:10< Crab_> but most gsoc projects are about changing something bigger, yes.
20100409 16:57:16< boucman> johnnyCbad: we use code you submit to see your coding aptitudes, so easy bugs are usually used for that
20100409 16:57:21< Ivanovic> and yeah, we prefer code samples against our code since this does also show that you are able to get into things
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20100409 16:57:31< Crab_> fendrin: exactly what the bug title says.
20100409 16:58:05< boucman> fendrin: marking some sides as "unselectable" in MP maps (could be a feature for your editor, btw)
20100409 16:58:31< fendrin> Crab_: That bug is invalid. It's an wml issue.
20100409 16:59:00< Crab_> fendrin: start a local MP game on sulla's ruins, which is a mainline MP map
20100409 16:59:07< Crab_> you'll be able to reproduce the map.
20100409 16:59:15< fendrin> boucman: Yes, but every such feature will be a fight with the developers. I am tired of fighting lately.
20100409 16:59:18-!- Damo [~damo_mc_l@79.97.142.21] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100409 16:59:22< Crab_> s/map/bug
20100409 16:59:53-!- Espreon [~espreon@wesnoth/developer/espreon] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100409 17:00:03< Damo> hi, my friend told me about gsoc today and would be very interested in appplying for this program
20100409 17:00:08< Crab_> fendrin: same thing on Caves of the basilisks
20100409 17:00:10< johnnyCbad> boucman: I thankfully I backed up my college work folder to dropbox before our break!
20100409 17:00:12< Crab_> hi, Damo
20100409 17:00:30< boucman> fendrin: it's fine, I think your ideas have dived in, and that they will be accepted now...
20100409 17:00:48< Damo> i'm a software design student from Ireland, first year
20100409 17:01:01< boucman> hi Damo, did you have a look at our gsoc wiki page ?
20100409 17:01:03-!- stikonas [~and@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100409 17:01:31< Damo> http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SummerOfCodeIdeas#I_want_to_be_one_of_your_Google_Summer_of_Code_students.2C_what_should_I_do...
20100409 17:01:52< Damo> i got this far and did the MOST IMPORTANT THING first
20100409 17:01:55< Damo> lool
20100409 17:02:08< Crab_> Damo: good :) note that the submission deadline for proposals is in a few hours http://tinyurl.com/gsoc2010-student-deadline 
20100409 17:02:42< Crab_> Damo: so, you need to 1) pick a project 2) ask us if it's ok, and if you understand it right 3) quickly make a wiki page, and submit a proposal to google
20100409 17:03:33< Crab_> Damo: then, you'll need to show us your best, there'll still some time ( a tenday, maybe less ) till the students are selected
20100409 17:03:55< Damo> ok, just wanted to introduce myself for now, I will read up more on the project and come back here if thats ok?
20100409 17:03:56< fendrin> boucman: I have thought about developing the new editor in YogiHH's experimental branch. I can add all features I can think off and delete the ones which don't come in handy there without fighting for every single one.
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20100409 17:05:54< boucman> fendrin: well, I personally wouldn't oppose having your current changes in...
20100409 17:06:25< boucman> the limit you have fixed on what should/shouldn't be in seems good to me, and now that the flamewar has settled down, I don't think people will yell that much
20100409 17:06:30< boucman> that's how it works here
20100409 17:06:38< johnnyCbad> Crab_: If I fixed a bug before the project started would that be a good code example?
20100409 17:07:03< fendrin> boucman: Well, It was easy. Everything that isn't in the editor is now in the eclipse plugin proposal :-)
20100409 17:07:42< Crab_> johnnyCbad: yes
20100409 17:07:50-!- dtiger [~dtiger@dynamic-vpdn-93-125-16-9.telecom.by] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100409 17:07:58< Crab_> johnnyCbad: if you fixed, say, 10, it would be even better :))
20100409 17:08:21< johnnyCbad> Crab_: Haha naturally
20100409 17:09:24< Crab_> fendrin: note: in CoB, the side with statues is allow_player=no
20100409 17:09:48< boucman> fendrin: hehe
20100409 17:09:52< fendrin> AI0867: Do you want to help with the merge? Someone mentioned it would be very much easier via svn-git.
20100409 17:10:01< johnnyCbad> Westnoth is always one of my first installed apps on linux distros, it's  the best imo
20100409 17:10:02< boucman> yes, that's actually a good way to define it :)
20100409 17:10:31 * boucman has discovered git this week
20100409 17:10:48< fakedrake> does anyone know if all the recall units are accessible from somewhere?
20100409 17:10:50< Crab_> fendrin: someone=me, but, sadly, /me is being too busy atm to actually do it
20100409 17:11:00< Crab_> fakedrake: resources.hpp has teams vector
20100409 17:11:09< fakedrake> :(
20100409 17:11:09< Crab_> fakedrake: team has recall_list()
20100409 17:11:20< fakedrake> yeah i was hoping you would direct me somewhere else
20100409 17:11:37< Crab_> fakedrake: why ?
20100409 17:11:56< fakedrake> i was hoping for a vector with all the recalls together
20100409 17:12:00< fendrin> Crab_: No problem, I see you work much on gsoc.
20100409 17:12:09< fakedrake> but never mind
20100409 17:12:17< fendrin> Crab_: I should learn it myself.
20100409 17:12:17< fakedrake> i will suit myself with that
20100409 17:12:22< Crab_> fakedrake: well,  std::vector<unit>& avail = (*resources::teams)[index].recall_list();  for one team, and collect them all..
20100409 17:12:55< boucman> git is simply amazing, but so far the windows tools are not simple enough for our uses (caveat, I havn't tested tortoisegit yet)
20100409 17:12:56< Crab_> fakedrake: should be possible with a std::transform in foreach
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20100409 17:13:14< fakedrake> yeah i guess
20100409 17:13:25< fakedrake> i am a bit lazy about it
20100409 17:13:35< Crab_> fakedrake: or with a bunch of copies. but why you need it ?
20100409 17:13:36< fakedrake> ill do it if i dont find something else
20100409 17:14:11< fakedrake> i am doing the have_unit thingie from the easy coding
20100409 17:15:03< fakedrake> i have fooled around so much that when the pa5ch is ready i will have to rewrite it in a clean checkout
20100409 17:15:08< fendrin> Crab_: The statues are only statues, right?
20100409 17:15:21< fakedrake> as i dont remember what changes are relevant and what are not
20100409 17:15:32< Crab_> fendrin: then have a [side] for them, but yes, they're only statues
20100409 17:15:51< Crab_> fendrin: I think that this a good bug for gsocers to fix
20100409 17:16:02< fendrin> Crab_: dissalow_side should work, sounds like a bug for yogiHH.
20100409 17:16:18< Crab_> fendrin: the already have 'allow_player="no"'.
20100409 17:16:33< fakedrake> Crab_ in what tags there a tag that suf is actually implemented?
20100409 17:16:38< fakedrake> (one would be enough
20100409 17:16:40< fakedrake> )
20100409 17:16:54< fakedrake> i think i am doing too much work for nothing
20100409 17:17:07< Crab_> fakedrake: teleport ?
20100409 17:17:12< fakedrake> yes
20100409 17:17:21< fakedrake> thats what i needed
20100409 17:17:21< Crab_> unpetrify
20100409 17:17:24< fakedrake> thanx
20100409 17:17:51< fendrin> Crab_: Are you sure this is easy to fix? Those multiplayer things tend to be very hacky and introducing more bugs than fixing is easy.
20100409 17:18:05< Crab_> fendrin: yes, since it's a regression
20100409 17:18:38< Crab_> fendrin: it's possible to do a git-bisect to find out the exact commit which introduced it, even someone who cannot program at all can find it.
20100409 17:18:49< fakedrake> thanx a lot
20100409 17:19:01< Espreon> I can find it? Lies.
20100409 17:19:43< Crab_> Espreon: well, you need to know how to compile or to keep a collection of executable files around :)
20100409 17:19:49-!- DesertPanther [~Khalid@unaffiliated/desertpanther] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
20100409 17:19:57< Crab_> since, it's, basically, "find out WHEN it was introduced" :)
20100409 17:19:58< Espreon> Well, of course I can compile (on Linux).
20100409 17:20:29< Crab_> so, 'repeat "checkout different version, compile, check if bug is present"' is enough to find the offending commit :)
20100409 17:20:45< Crab_> (of course, a programmer can fix it in easier way)
20100409 17:20:58< fendrin> Crab_: Can you talk me through the process of that merge? Not the merge itself, just howto get two git branches that can do the merge.
20100409 17:23:28< Crab_> fendrin: no, since I want to try this myself on the 'real' data, before giving advice on 'how to do it'. but I can try to test it now, if you tell me what is to be done.
20100409 17:23:53< AI0867> fendrin: I tried that, it didn't work too well
20100409 17:24:03< AI0867> so I've been doing partial merges
20100409 17:24:13< AI0867> updating the branch
20100409 17:24:24< AI0867> but I've fallen behind since 1.8 was tagged
20100409 17:25:01< fendrin> AI0867: I think updating the branch is the way to do it anyway?
20100409 17:25:38< AI0867> yes, well, in git, the default way of merging is to merge the *entire* branch
20100409 17:25:39< fendrin> That was what I expected form git to do.
20100409 17:25:57< AI0867> make both branches an ancestor of the merge commit
20100409 17:26:04< fendrin> AI0867: Ah, okay. Git is strange. Why didn't it come out well?
20100409 17:26:17< AI0867> the stipping out of EXPERIMENTAL in trunk
20100409 17:26:25< AI0867> and then stripping out the other part in the branch
20100409 17:26:37< AI0867> there were too many conflicts too deal with
20100409 17:26:58< AI0867> some commits were made on the branch first and then ported to trunk
20100409 17:27:03< AI0867> then updated in trunk
20100409 17:27:25< AI0867> I'll give iit another shot using svn later tonight
20100409 17:27:27< fendrin> Yeah, the history of that project is a very nice antipattern.
20100409 17:27:30< AI0867> I'm off now
20100409 17:27:48< fendrin> AI0867: Bye
20100409 17:27:48< fakedrake> resources::units contains only the units in the map and not the recall ones right?
20100409 17:27:52< fakedrake> Crab_
20100409 17:27:55< Crab_> fakedrake: correct
20100409 17:27:59< fakedrake> ok
20100409 17:28:34< fendrin> fakedrake: You can find the recruit list in team.cpp.
20100409 17:29:16< fendrin> fakedrake: Note, A team in wesnoth is a set of sides. The team.cpp class is named wrongly and deals with game "Sides".
20100409 17:29:30< fendrin> fakedrake: s/resruit/recall
20100409 17:29:54< fakedrake> aha
20100409 17:29:56< Crab_> fendrin: 'A team in wesnoth is a set of sides.' ??
20100409 17:30:13< fakedrake> i am a bit sick
20100409 17:30:17< fendrin> Crab_: isn't it? 
20100409 17:30:22< Crab_> fendrin: each team is 1 side
20100409 17:30:29< fakedrake> i will take a nap and ill be back
20100409 17:30:36< Crab_> and the 'teams' vector is the vector of sides
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20100409 17:30:49< fendrin> Crab_: You got me wrong.
20100409 17:31:11< Crab_> ok
20100409 17:31:26< fendrin> Wesnoth calls the object that is of type team "sides". Right?
20100409 17:31:58< Crab_> fendrin: you mean 'team' as in 'people in the same team, allied with each other' ?
20100409 17:32:06< fendrin> But teams in Wesnoth are sets of sides.
20100409 17:32:08< fendrin> yes
20100409 17:32:20< Crab_> ok, yes, then I've misunderstood you.
20100409 17:32:27< fendrin> That confused me a little.
20100409 17:32:38< aranair> i think as long as the side shares the same team_name they are the same alliance right?
20100409 17:32:52< aranair> currently at least?
20100409 17:32:57< Crab_> aranair: yes, it should be so.
20100409 17:33:01< Crab_> (currently)
20100409 17:33:11< fendrin> aranair: That is correct, the team_name attributes defines the set your team belongs to.
20100409 17:33:25< fendrin> your side belongs to. Sorry
20100409 17:33:36< fendrin> You see it is confusing :-)
20100409 17:34:58< aranair> mm im not sure if it has been discussed before, but is there any benefits to only be able to set pair-wise relations now? mm
20100409 17:35:08< aranair> or was it to avoid certain problems?
20100409 17:35:31< Crab_> you mean 'symmetric' ?
20100409 17:35:40< fendrin> aranair: team_name can be a list now. The sets are no longer independend if that is what you ment.
20100409 17:36:30< boucman> aranair: see SoC ideas :P
20100409 17:36:32< aranair> mmm yeah crab_
20100409 17:36:42< boucman> one of them is to break the symetry
20100409 17:36:46< aranair> i know im actually wanting to change that boucman ;P
20100409 17:36:53< aranair> i am one of the students applying for it ;P
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20100409 17:37:55< Crab_> aranair: I guess that it was for 'keep things simple until you know how to make them better' thing
20100409 17:38:03< aranair> ah. ok
20100409 17:38:21< Crab_> so, if you, now, know how to make them better...
20100409 17:38:39< aranair> hopefully so. described in my proposal heh. 
20100409 17:39:52< boucman> aranair: do you want me to do an early review of your proposal ?
20100409 17:40:34< aranair> boucman: yes of course, if you have the time
20100409 17:40:50< boucman> nagbot: aranair
20100409 17:40:54< aranair> it was actually quite intriguing as i was brainstorming heh. many problems to define things in different scenarios 
20100409 17:40:57< boucman> nagbot: aranair ?
20100409 17:40:59< nagbot> aranair : http://wiki.wesnoth.org//SummerofCode_Aranair
20100409 17:41:33< fendrin> nagbot: drive students on!
20100409 17:42:12< Espreon> Eh... you children and your nagbot...
20100409 17:43:35< boucman> aranair: i'll post comments as they come
20100409 17:43:59< boucman> section 4.8: we are mostly interested in your coding experiences, what sort of projects you worked on, size, time spent etc...
20100409 17:44:33< aranair> ok 
20100409 17:44:35< aranair> noted-
20100409 17:44:56< aranair> wait ...4.8?
20100409 17:45:09< aranair> ah 
20100409 17:45:40< aranair> Oh. I thought the coding experience was asked again later on. dang i'll brb ;P
20100409 17:46:35< boucman> aranair: yes, it is, i'm not quite clear what we're asking for there myself... :P
20100409 17:47:00< aranair> hehe
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20100409 17:57:28< fendrin> Crab_: https://gna.org/bugs/?15750 The wml code of the scenario uses goto_x and goto_y attributes of the unit variable. Can you tell me how to handle the bug?
20100409 17:57:38< boucman> aranair: ok, overall I find your proposal interesting (you have your own ideas about the new alliance system, which is good) but the explainations are very confusing. 
20100409 17:57:57< aranair> boucman: which part is?
20100409 17:58:01< boucman> you should drop the PDF entirely and only update the wiki (since this is what we'll most likely read)
20100409 17:58:17< boucman> the whole 4.30
20100409 17:58:26< aranair> yeah , i always thought i was supposed to send a pdf as a proposal
20100409 17:58:31< aranair> thats why i had that version :/
20100409 17:58:37< aranair> its actually almost the same heh
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20100409 17:58:49< boucman> and you should start with a big paragraph describing your proposal in gameplay term only (not ui, nor implementation, only gameplay)
20100409 17:59:22< Damo> hi, i've had a look at the ideas section of the easycoding page, do i stand any chance of qualifying if i dont submit an idea?
20100409 17:59:26< boucman> that part will interest our MP devs a lot and you should discuss it with them (noy, soliton, happygrue)
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20100409 17:59:37< aranair> nods
20100409 17:59:47< Damo> I dunno if i can come up with a good enough solution before the deadline
20100409 17:59:55< boucman> Damo: well, seeing the number of students that did, your chance without submitting any code are very low
20100409 18:00:04< aranair> boucman: mm what do you mean by gameplay terms, you mean like just layman terms first?
20100409 18:00:17< boucman> but if you want to submit something not in EC, that's fine, you should discuss your ideas with us beforehand, though
20100409 18:00:24< boucman> yes
20100409 18:00:50< boucman> it's a huge change in the basic game, we need to be sure to understand it well
20100409 18:01:36< Damo> like submit examples of code i've done for college?
20100409 18:01:45< Damo> its all java and vb tho
20100409 18:01:46< aranair> agreed heh. yeah actually i was very confused at the beginning, explains it i guess~_~
20100409 18:01:57< Damo> and pretty basic stuff
20100409 18:02:05< aranair> it slowly formed as i wrote more. mmm. I can still edit the wiki now right?
20100409 18:02:30< aranair> I mean, I thought the proposal deadline is over?
20100409 18:02:35< zookeeper> eh, something seems messed up about how music works. i seem to get completely nonsensical tracks playing all the time...
20100409 18:03:04< Damo> not for another 2 hours
20100409 18:03:10< boucman> Damo: no, wesnoth patches, the point is having you get into our code and understand some part of it, to see how you're going
20100409 18:03:17< aranair> what. 2 hours? oh realy heh
20100409 18:03:36< fendrin> zookeeper: in every scenario?
20100409 18:03:56< zookeeper> fendrin, at least in many scenarios so far
20100409 18:04:20< Damo> ok, i'll do more reading
20100409 18:04:24< boucman> aranair: that's the deadline to submit to google, the deadline for wiki proposal is not before next week (at least, I don't know the exact timeline) but it's basically until we get all the mentors together and grade the proposals :P
20100409 18:04:35< aranair> Oh ;)
20100409 18:04:35< zookeeper> well, some scenarios just have odd playlists to begin with nowadays. like how on earth does the_city_falls.ogg fit as the music in DiD's intro story?
20100409 18:05:18< aranair> boucman: thanks alot for the review, do you have other feedback for the proposal in general?
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20100409 18:05:43< boucman> not really, I'm confused on the idea myself :P
20100409 18:05:46< fendrin> zookeeper: Yes, the problem is that there are not many songs around that fit into intro stories. Most of the music doesn't come to the point before the intro story is read and clicked away.
20100409 18:05:47< Espreon> Yeah, many scenarios have poor playlists...
20100409 18:06:15< aranair> boucman: heh~
20100409 18:06:23< boucman> it's feasible technically, but like any huge change like that it needs to be discussed in here a lot, find the right devs, ask them to review your gameplay paragraph, ask for feedback 
20100409 18:06:43< boucman> the coding part is important, but the basics needs to be straight and clear first
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20100409 18:07:02< aranair> boucman: nods. thanks. mm when are you normally around?
20100409 18:07:20< boucman> normally i'm around in the evenin UTC
20100409 18:07:38< aranair> boucman: ok, cya around. i'll be busy editting then (:
20100409 18:08:18< boucman> (17h UTC is when I usually get back from work)
20100409 18:09:22< aranair> i wish i knew how to calculate properly~_~ gimme a sec i'll set a windows clock for utc heh
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20100409 18:11:02< aranair> ah 1am heh ;P
20100409 18:11:04< Shuger> hi
20100409 18:11:49< Shuger> is it possible to update my gsoc wiki page after 19:00 or is it forbidden?
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20100409 18:12:41< Ivanovic> Shuger: you should leave comments in your gsoc application (the one at google) noting that you updated your proposal
20100409 18:14:00< Shuger> ok, i was wondering if i am allowed to do that, thanks
20100409 18:14:02< fendrin> zookeeper: LoW seems to play correct. No songs are played that are not in the playlist.
20100409 18:21:09< Ivanovic> Shuger: it is a wiki, it is meant to be edited
20100409 18:21:29< Ivanovic> Shuger: you should just make sure that we *note* your changes, which you can do by adding a comment in your application at google
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20100409 18:27:28-!- timotei21 [~timotei21@193.34.191.4] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100409 18:28:31< timotei21> hello everyone
20100409 18:28:37< boucman> hey timotei21
20100409 18:28:41< Greywhind> 'lo
20100409 18:28:51< fendrin> hi timotei21
20100409 18:28:59-!- Blueblaze [~nick@adsl-99-4-145-40.dsl.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100409 18:29:00< timotei21> welcome back fendrin 
20100409 18:29:18< timotei21> so, you finished with the exams?
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20100409 18:32:30< timotei21> I wanted to tell you on monday/tuesday, when you left, about reviewing my proposal page
20100409 18:32:39< timotei21> nagbot timotei21 ?
20100409 18:32:48< timotei21> nagbot: timotei21 ?
20100409 18:32:50< nagbot> timotei : http://wiki.wesnoth.org//SummerofCode_Timotei21
20100409 18:33:04< timotei21> you have some time now, I'll be glad to hear your feedback if any
20100409 18:37:38-!- lfernando [~luiz@201-42-209-100.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100409 18:38:56< lfernando> hello
20100409 18:39:05< timotei21> hello lfernando 
20100409 18:40:19< lfernando> hey timotei =)
20100409 18:40:42< timotei21> what?:D
20100409 18:41:16< lfernando> give me a quick hand
20100409 18:41:21< lfernando> on svn
20100409 18:41:32< timotei21> yes?
20100409 18:41:34< lfernando> how can I check for older updates
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20100409 18:41:51< timotei> well.. you use tortoisesvn?
20100409 18:41:59< timotei> or just want to check on the webcvs version for something?
20100409 18:42:00< lfernando> for example, right now we are on r42061
20100409 18:42:31< lfernando> just wanted to see, for example, the changes at r41985
20100409 18:42:36< timotei> well
20100409 18:42:42< lfernando> no, never used tortoisesvn
20100409 18:42:59< timotei> http://svn.gna.org/viewcvs/wesnoth/
20100409 18:43:14< timotei> go here, and there is a textbox for: Jump to directory revision:
20100409 18:43:19< timotei> type the revision and press go
20100409 18:43:44< timotei> and if you want to see then the changes, after the page refreshes, there is a link: Current revision: 	41985
20100409 18:44:02< timotei> press on that link, and a list with the commit files+message will be listed:)
20100409 18:45:03< lfernando> doh!
20100409 18:45:10< lfernando> forgot about the cvs site =P
20100409 18:45:24< lfernando> thanks a lot timo
20100409 18:46:27< timotei> you're welcome
20100409 18:48:19< timotei> or, there are 2 more ways
20100409 18:48:30< timotei> 1) using the command: svn log -r ##### 
20100409 18:48:41< timotei> optionally you can check the log for a specified file
20100409 18:48:47< timotei> 2) use the irc channel for the log
20100409 18:48:57< timotei> wesbot: log 41000
20100409 18:48:58< wesbot> mordante * r41000 : Remove a useless constant.
20100409 18:48:58< wesbot> URL: http://svn.gna.org/viewcvs/wesnoth?view=rev&rev=41000
20100409 18:49:02< timotei> :)
20100409 18:49:10< lfernando> wes
20100409 18:49:51< lfernando> wesbot: log 42008
20100409 18:49:52< wesbot> mordante * r42008 : Add the proper button for upload statistics.
20100409 18:49:52< wesbot> URL: http://svn.gna.org/viewcvs/wesnoth?view=rev&rev=42008
20100409 18:50:08< timotei> :P
20100409 18:50:16< timotei> but this way will flood the channel
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20100409 18:51:39< lfernando> groovy =-D
20100409 18:51:40< Ivanovic> you are free to /query the bot and talk to it then
20100409 19:00:04< Ivanovic> okay, i am off for the evening, cu
20100409 19:01:41< lfernando> night
20100409 19:13:25-!- pokhbocee [~pokhbocee@ws40.cs.drexel.edu] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100409 19:13:52< timotei> good night
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20100409 19:45:24< boucman> anybody want a proposal proofread ?
20100409 19:46:01< timotei> if you want to read it:  http://wiki.wesnoth.org//SummerofCode_Timotei21
20100409 19:49:37-!- mordante [~mordante@wesnoth/developer/mordante] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100409 19:49:48< mordante> servus
20100409 19:49:52< boucman> i don't know eclipse well, I read through quickly but don't have much to say
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20100409 19:50:05< timotei> oh ok boucman 
20100409 19:50:07< timotei> hello mordante 
20100409 19:50:24< mordante> hi timotei 
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20100409 19:50:58-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: GSoC: proposals are to be submitted to Google before 9th April 19:00 UTC http://tinyurl.com/gsoc2010-student-deadline . Also, when your wiki page is ready, ask us to review it. | 85 bugs, 264 feature requests, 15 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
20100409 19:52:00< mordante> Ivanovic, the warning messages are expected, but nice to see the patch is in gentoo, bruno is working on the fedora side
20100409 19:53:43< boucman> nagbot: lfernando ?
20100409 19:53:45< nagbot> lfernando : http://wiki.wesnoth.org//SummerOfCodeProposal_lfernando
20100409 19:53:59< mordante> that saves me work boucman ;-)
20100409 19:54:20< boucman> lfernando: give me a little time, i'm doing something else, but i'll read after that
20100409 19:54:43< mordante> lfernando, I'll start once I read the log so in a few minutes
20100409 19:55:48< lfernando> no hurry ;)
20100409 19:56:25< mordante> well I need to start reviewing proposals anyway ;-)
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20100409 20:02:19< mordante> boucman, afaik we have't reached consensus about the editor changes, at least my question when and were reached is never answered
20100409 20:04:20< boucman> mordante: I thought they were
20100409 20:04:35< shadowmaster> there was talk on the ML after that AFAIK.
20100409 20:04:47< mordante> boucman, no I haven't seen a reply to my question
20100409 20:04:55< shadowmaster> but yeah, apparently the dev intended to write code before getting the approval for merging
20100409 20:05:36< mordante> shadowmaster, yes I remember that from the irc discussion afterwards
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20100409 20:13:38< timotei> can anyone tell me what (or from when to when) is the first and second watch?
20100409 20:13:53< mordante> lfernando, are your "global" variables completely global per campaign, the first paragraph seems to contradict itself
20100409 20:14:30< mordante> s/paragraph/section/
20100409 20:14:44< shadowmaster> ...global variables?
20100409 20:14:56< mordante> shadowmaster, http://wiki.wesnoth.org//SummerOfCodeProposal_lfernando
20100409 20:15:14< shadowmaster> mordante: I know I know
20100409 20:15:23< mordante> ok
20100409 20:15:27< shadowmaster> the proposal doesn't look too different from my basic ideas last year
20100409 20:16:05< shadowmaster> well, he says it's based on Crab's suggestons so I guess that's not unexpected.
20100409 20:16:46< mordante> maybe you get lucky and somebody implements it
20100409 20:17:08< shadowmaster> that would be nice since my source of coding inspiration is dead.
20100409 20:17:46< mordante> what happened ?
20100409 20:19:10< shadowmaster> well, I can't concentrate on Wesnoth's code anymore?
20100409 20:19:12< boucman> timotei: when you sleep and you have to organize guard for the night, two people will stay up to be "on watch" first watch is the first half of night and second watch the second half
20100409 20:19:27< mordante> ok
20100409 20:19:33< shadowmaster> it's as if I had a little PCI card on my head and it got fried somehow
20100409 20:19:40< mordante> if there are GSoC students who didn't post their idea in melange, now is the time to do it
20100409 20:19:43< timotei> thanks boucman 
20100409 20:19:57< mordante> if you don't do it in 40 minutes we can't accept you
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20100409 20:21:07< timotei> from wml wiki: This user interface action only works in debug mode. It displays the gamestate inspector dialog (the same one which can be brought up with :inspect
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20100409 20:21:17< timotei> where we type the :inspect command?
20100409 20:21:46< shadowmaster> timotei: game commands are entered in the command box which you bring up with :
20100409 20:22:01< shadowmaster> (where ':' stands for any key sequence you use for typing colons)
20100409 20:22:14< shadowmaster> think of it like vi
20100409 20:22:19< timotei> oh, yeah. cool:D
20100409 20:22:22< timotei> didn't know of that
20100409 20:22:39< shadowmaster> so, you must enable :debug (or start wesnoth with the -d switch) to use :inspect
20100409 20:22:43< timotei> that's only in-game right?, cause in the menu it doesn't work
20100409 20:22:47< timotei> ok
20100409 20:22:53< shadowmaster> yeah, only during gameplay
20100409 20:23:16< shadowmaster> and :debug won't work in multiplayer games, too
20100409 20:23:25< boucman> pokhbocee: I don't understand what exactly is the patch you just submitted....
20100409 20:23:55< Achilles> i have edited my proposal via GSoC
20100409 20:24:06-!- kahowell [~thurston@ip-128-239-145-242.v4.wm.edu] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100409 20:24:39< kahowell> I know this is pretty late notice, but I have submitted by GSoC application and would like someone to review my wiki page...
20100409 20:24:46< Achilles> i'll create sample code to showcase my coding skills, over the weekend...if that's fine
20100409 20:24:52< kahowell> (if it's not a bother.)
20100409 20:25:21< boucman> Achilles: sure, basically you can change anything until we do our final review
20100409 20:25:21< mordante> kahowell, I might have time later, looking at another proposal at the moment
20100409 20:25:31< boucman> nagbot: kahowell ?
20100409 20:25:32< nagbot> kahowell : http://wiki.wesnoth.org//SummerOfCodeProposal_Kahowell
20100409 20:25:49< kahowell> correct.
20100409 20:26:03 * boucman starts reviewing lfernando
20100409 20:26:13< kahowell> oh i see. that was a command.
20100409 20:26:26< kahowell> mordante: thanks
20100409 20:26:31< mordante> yup, we have our slaves ;-)
20100409 20:26:36< Achilles> http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SummerOfCodeProposal_Rigved_Lua
20100409 20:26:43< Achilles> this is the wiki page
20100409 20:27:04< mordante> nagbot: Achilles ?
20100409 20:27:29< mordante> Achilles, it would be nice to get your name in the title, so our bot can find you
20100409 20:28:09< Achilles> mordante: can anyone review it and check if it is ok...Ivanovic had earlier asked me to make some changes
20100409 20:28:12< boucman> lfernando: stupid question, in what country is campinas ?
20100409 20:28:27< Achilles> ok
20100409 20:28:36< kahowell> Quick question: Which is more important, the SoC application or the wiki page?
20100409 20:28:43< boucman> wiki
20100409 20:28:53< mordante> Achilles, you're in the queue after kahowell if I then have time left
20100409 20:28:54< timotei> you should add first your proposal
20100409 20:29:01< timotei> or else you can't participate in gsoc
20100409 20:29:06< timotei> send at google
20100409 20:29:24< kahowell> timotei: I've done that. :)
20100409 20:29:27< timotei> but in the application at soc, you should link to the wiki page
20100409 20:29:32< timotei> ok:P
20100409 20:29:54< Espreon> boucman: It is in Brazil.
20100409 20:30:11< boucman> k
20100409 20:30:21< boucman> it was a bit later in the proposal, actually :P
20100409 20:31:04< kahowell> timotei: Is it okay to have more detail in the SoC page, and have the wiki say refer to the SoC page? (Call me paranoid, but I didn't want someone to simply snatch my ideas before 3:00)
20100409 20:31:06< Espreon> I'm currently addicted to Final Fantasy VIII... so... that's kinda preventing me from reading proposals.
20100409 20:31:18< Espreon> It has kept me up for at least twenty-four hours.
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20100409 20:31:23< Espreon> ... and I am not even tired.
20100409 20:31:57< timotei> Espreon, try commandos 3 destination berlin. Just saw on youtube some amazing speed runs 
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20100409 20:32:13< timotei> kahowell, I don't know about that, better asck boucman/mordante
20100409 20:32:26< Espreon> Maybe...
20100409 20:32:46< kahowell> mordante/boucman: Opinions?
20100409 20:32:56< mordante> kahowell, indeed paranoid ;-) the advantage of the wiki is that you can edit after the dead-line
20100409 20:33:03< timotei> kahowell, in the end, the wiki page is much more editable than yout application at gsoc
20100409 20:33:10< timotei> s/yout/your
20100409 20:33:28< mordante> kahowell, just make sure that we know which version is the "current" one
20100409 20:34:29< kahowell> mordante: Okay. In 30 mins (deadline), I'll update the wiki one to be current (and then leave the google one alone forever lol).
20100409 20:36:09< mordante> kahowell, ok 
20100409 20:36:17< Achilles> mordante: done as u had asked; renamed proposal to have my name (Achilles) in the title as well as linked it to my wiki page
20100409 20:36:19< boucman> kahowell: and we are a very communicative/sharing lot, if you want to keep your proposal private, it's your choice, but we usually do everything publicly and expect candidates to do that too
20100409 20:36:36< mordante> thanks Achilles 
20100409 20:36:38< Achilles> can i edit my wiki page even after the 19:00 UTC deadline?
20100409 20:37:01< boucman> of course
20100409 20:37:03< mordante> yes only make sure you notify us by a message in the google proposal
20100409 20:37:15< Achilles> ok...thanx
20100409 20:37:24< mordante> you will be able to post comments there after the deadline
20100409 20:37:30< mordante> (or already, not sure)
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20100409 20:37:58< Espreon> Oh noez!
20100409 20:38:09< mordante> lfernando, you posted a paste-bin global variable implementation, how far is it, can it be finished this weekend?
20100409 20:38:32< mordante> lfernando, having that patch in makes your proposal stronger
20100409 20:38:34< kahowell> boucman: okay. I will then update the wiki one to be current now...
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20100409 20:40:04< kahowell> Also, could someone include my proposal under the "Port Wesnoth input framework to a more flexible system" heading? or should I do that?
20100409 20:40:44< mordante> not sure how that's done, but Crab_ should know
20100409 20:40:46< timotei> just edit the header
20100409 20:41:36< timotei> add the category
20100409 20:41:41< timotei> one sec
20100409 20:42:06< mordante> lfernando, I like to get more info on the GM mode in your proposal especially the interaction between the players
20100409 20:42:36< timotei> [[Category:SoC Ideas Gui2 Input]]
20100409 20:42:41< mordante> lfernando, when can the GM do thing ones per round of after the turn of every player? (I assume the latter, but that requires servers changes)
20100409 20:42:45< timotei> add this in the 2nd or 3rd line in your proposal
20100409 20:43:04< mordante> seems timotei also knows how 
20100409 20:43:42< mordante> lfernando, when you start to flesh out that part of the idea more you can also improve your timeline
20100409 20:44:00< nagbot> Hello from your friendly bot!
20100409 20:44:01< nagbot> An announcement for ALL Google Summer of Code Students:
20100409 20:44:02< nagbot> Tell Google about your application!
20100409 20:44:03< nagbot> http://socghop.appspot.com/gsoc/student/apply/google/gsoc2010
20100409 20:44:04< nagbot> You need to do this until Apr 9th, 19:00 UTC (12:00 PST)
20100409 20:44:05< nagbot> Everyone not enlisted in the google tracker at that time will have *no* chance to participate with Wesnoth as part of Summer of Code 2010, no matter how good your proposal in the wiki is or *whatever*
20100409 20:44:06< nagbot> We can select ONLY people listed there!
20100409 20:44:07< nagbot> Submit patches and prototypes for review, so we'll see how you work.
20100409 20:44:08< nagbot> Discuss your ideas here - get important feedback from developers
20100409 20:44:13< timotei> also lfernando, add this too: {{SoC2010Student_2|lfernando|SoC Ideas Gui2 Input}}
20100409 20:44:29< mordante> 19:00 UTC is about 15 minutes!
20100409 20:44:31< timotei> I mean, edit the first line
20100409 20:45:00< boucman> lfernando: paragraph 5.3, would the name of the GM be saved in the game ? (so people can pass savegames around without changing the variable they expect) would the GM appear in the MP lobby ? as a particular category of players ? how do you create/destroy a GM, could the last known state of the GM be saved in the savegame somehow ?
20100409 20:45:17< boucman> this whole aspect needs to be thought about much more
20100409 20:45:34< mordante> lfernando, and looking at the timeline you need quite a bit of time for finishing the SP persistence, but glancing over the patch it looks almost done
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20100409 20:46:27-!- Crab_ [~Crab_@wesnoth/developer/crab] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100409 20:46:36< timotei> hello Crab_ 
20100409 20:47:08< kahowell> timotei: thanks
20100409 20:47:22< timotei> np
20100409 20:47:31< Crab_> timotei: hi
20100409 20:48:18-!- Tesafilmchen [~quassel@p5B277E0E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100409 20:48:36< timotei> kahowell, and if you want to see if it works, click the "Show Preview" page, look at the header of the page to see if it writes something like: This is a Summer of Code 2010 student page
20100409 20:48:36< timotei> Project: SoC Ideas Gui2 Input
20100409 20:50:26< kahowell> timotei: thanks. jw: are you a regular wikipedia contributor?
20100409 20:50:47< timotei> jw=just wondering?
20100409 20:51:45< timotei> well, I like learning all kind of things, and first time I arrived here I got familiarized with the wiki thing  - even though I've used some other engines of editable wiki before
20100409 20:51:59< kahowell> timotei: yup jw=just wondering.
20100409 20:52:12< timotei> and also, from Crab_'s page I've seen how easy is to do tables in wiki, thanks Crab_ 
20100409 20:52:13< Crab_> timotei: to make it work with Project: SoC Ideas Gui2 Input, it had to be written like {{SoC2010Student_2|kahowell|SoC Ideas Gui2 Input}} in there
20100409 20:52:39< Crab_> (fixed that page to look like that, btw)
20100409 20:52:42< timotei> oh yea, I misspelled the name. but I think kahowell saw that :P
20100409 20:53:08< kahowell> Crab_: thanks
20100409 20:53:20< mordante> lfernando, just ping me when you're around then we can talk in more detail
20100409 20:53:54< mordante> kahowell, which proposal should I review? wiki or google?
20100409 20:54:43< kahowell> mordante: the google one... I am in the process of copying the google one over to the wiki.
20100409 20:55:13< boucman> kahowell: could you add a link to your gsoc proposal in your wiki proposal ? (we post comments there, though we usually rather review the wiki page)
20100409 20:55:17< Achilles> Crab_: I was wondering if you could review my proposal, as you are the mentor of this idea: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SummerOfCode_Achilles_Lua
20100409 20:55:53-!- shadowm_laptop [~ignacio@wesnoth/developer/shadowmaster] has quit []
20100409 20:55:53< lfernando> mordante, I'm back
20100409 20:56:03< Crab_> Achilles: hello and welcome. I'll do so 
20100409 20:56:19< mordante> lfernando, ok left some message in the log, best read them first
20100409 20:56:25< Achilles> thanx
20100409 20:56:43< kahowell> boucman: sure.
20100409 20:57:13< timotei> 3 more minutes until 19.00 UTC:D
20100409 20:58:36-!- Crab_ changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: GSoC: proposals are to be submitted to Google  NOW http://tinyurl.com/gsoc2010-student-deadline | 85 bugs, 264 feature requests, 15 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
20100409 20:59:20-!- nagbot [~nagbot@wesnoth/bot/nagbot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20100409 20:59:22< kahowell> boucman: how can I find the url for the gsoc application i submitted?
20100409 20:59:26< timotei> let's see how fast the submit button dissapears
20100409 20:59:41-!- nagbot [~nagbot@wesnoth/bot/nagbot] has joined #wesnoth-dev
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20100409 21:01:45< timotei> kahowell, go at your proposal page, copy the link, and replace the "private" string to "review" ,and that's the link
20100409 21:03:02< mordante> kahowell, we like students to work on patches and this easy coding task looks nice with your proposal http://wiki.wesnoth.org/EasyCoding#Arrow_keys_for_the_slider
20100409 21:03:14< kahowell> timotei: thanks.
20100409 21:03:23< kahowell> mordante: will take a look.
20100409 21:04:06-!- Crab_ changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: GSoC: Thanks to all GSoC candidates for submitting proposals to Google | 85 bugs, 264 feature requests, 15 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
20100409 21:04:13< mordante> kahowell, is it possible with SDL to probe which devices are available?
20100409 21:04:36< lfernando> mordante: about the pastebin example
20100409 21:04:41-!- Zarel_ [~Zarel@warzone2100/developer/Zarel] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100409 21:04:41< timotei> Crab_, I'm currently wanting to rewrite/enhance the way wesnoth starts
20100409 21:04:48< timotei> it's ok if I add some new commands?
20100409 21:04:51< Crab_> timotei: a good thing!
20100409 21:04:56< timotei> or do I need to edit the existing ones?
20100409 21:04:58< Crab_> timotei: add a design document to the wiki
20100409 21:04:59< kahowell> mordante: You can get a count of available joysticks.
20100409 21:05:01-!- Zarel_ [~Zarel@warzone2100/developer/Zarel] has quit [Client Quit]
20100409 21:05:06< Crab_> timotei: let us discuss what we want to do
20100409 21:05:22< timotei> well, I was thinking of addying some commands like:
20100409 21:05:25< kahowell> mordante: And then you can get the numbers of buttons and axes for each device.
20100409 21:05:28< timotei> --test-campaign | -tc
20100409 21:05:32< lfernando> it's only a prototype
20100409 21:05:33< timotei> --test-scenario | -tc
20100409 21:05:57< lfernando> for showcasing the kind of things that you can do with global vars
20100409 21:05:58-!- Crab_ changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: GSoC: Thanks to all GSoC candidates for submitting proposals to Google. Accepted student applications announced on April 26. | 85 bugs, 264 feature requests, 15 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
20100409 21:06:23< timotei> and the next parameter would be the name of the campaign/scenario
20100409 21:06:40< boucman> kahowell: you need to expand your proposal waaaay more, right now there is not much more than what our page provide, you should explore the existing wesnoth input layer, critic it, say what needs to be done, discuss what SDL provides etc...
20100409 21:06:55< timotei> also, I could enhance the -tc command: a second parameter for the scenario to start from inside the campaign
20100409 21:07:02< boucman> basically, the first two lines of your timeline is what you should do now
20100409 21:07:04< lfernando> the output file isn't in WML yet
20100409 21:07:16< lfernando> so it's not as "done" as it seems
20100409 21:07:27< boucman> pokhbocee: around ?
20100409 21:07:38< mordante> kahowell, ah ok good to know
20100409 21:07:51< lfernando> but yes, I think it's pretty easy to code
20100409 21:08:10< boucman> nagbot: Achilles ?
20100409 21:08:27< mordante> lfernando, I also wonder whether we should store it in a separate file or in the preferences
20100409 21:08:37< kahowell> boucman: will do.
20100409 21:08:43< lfernando> I might try advancing on that line if you want to see more of that
20100409 21:08:49< lfernando> hm
20100409 21:09:05< mordante> the preferences already load and save themselves so you need to do less for it
20100409 21:09:30< lfernando> you mean the preferences that show on a gui dialog?
20100409 21:09:43< lfernando> in game
20100409 21:09:51< Achilles> yes nagbot
20100409 21:10:00< mordante> lfernando, yes/no I mean the file that holds the contents of the preferences not the gui part
20100409 21:10:12< Crab_> mordante: what's the size of current preferences ? there might be megabytes of info in game persistence files
20100409 21:10:16< mordante> the file also contains the last nick you used for the MP server?
20100409 21:10:26< mordante> Crab_, it's a WML file
20100409 21:10:39< mordante> it's size depends on your contents
20100409 21:11:11< Achilles> yes boucman
20100409 21:11:18< mordante> if we really expect megabytes we maybe should split the file per namespace and add a sub directory in the preferences folder
20100409 21:11:33< boucman> Achilles: what's the link to your proposal (nagbot seems not to know it yet)
20100409 21:11:39< lfernando> can it hold a variable number of variables?
20100409 21:11:43< lfernando> the preferences file
20100409 21:11:52< boucman> lfernando: it's WML, so yes
20100409 21:11:55< mordante> lfernando, yes it's just another WML file
20100409 21:11:58< Crab_> mordante: well, multiply the size of save and by the number of addons/namespaces and by N
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20100409 21:12:16< lfernando> like Crab_ said, it can be large
20100409 21:12:20< mordante> Crab_, the entire file is saved there?
20100409 21:12:25< Crab_> mordante: so,  "file per namespace and add a sub directory in the preferences folder" is a better way, imo
20100409 21:12:43< timotei> Crab_, I'll write the way I'll do the redesign on the wiki? So I won't intrrerupt you now. ok? And then, we'll talk based on that
20100409 21:12:51< Crab_> timotei: ok
20100409 21:13:07< Crab_> mordante: just the WML variables that we need to save. but they can contain anything
20100409 21:13:18< lfernando> and other thing
20100409 21:13:29< Crab_> mordante: and it'll be easier to reset prefs for a particular namespace - just kill the file(s)
20100409 21:13:31< lfernando> is that global_variables aren't supposed to be changed by the user
20100409 21:13:31< mordante> and the per file also makes it easy to delete them
20100409 21:13:43< mordante> Crab_, great minds think alike ;-)
20100409 21:14:06< lfernando> whenever he wants to
20100409 21:14:08< Crab_> lfernando: well, content developer will probably like want to take a look at them from time to time, or to kill them in anger :)
20100409 21:14:11< mordante> lfernando, if you store it on the users computer you can't avoid that
20100409 21:14:20< lfernando> yes, yes
20100409 21:14:29< Crab_> mordante: :)
20100409 21:14:35< lfernando> I know, I tried to change my save files once :)
20100409 21:14:45< Achilles> how do i get the link to the proposal?
20100409 21:15:45< mordante> kahowell, I think it might be easier to allow configuration files for certain devices and let the user pick his/her device
20100409 21:16:02< mordante> kahowell, still can use probing for new/unknown devices
20100409 21:16:53< mordante> kahowell, I also think that hotplugging devices is overkill
20100409 21:16:54-!- gabba [~gabba@72.0.215.59] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100409 21:17:32< kahowell> mordante: perhaps, i added it in as a kind of a "if i get everything else done" task.
20100409 21:17:50< boucman> Achilles: go at your proposal page, copy the link, and replace the "private" string to "review" ,and that's the link
20100409 21:18:03< mordante> kahowell, we also expect you to work on changing the input system itself to use these devices, I miss that a bit in your proposal
20100409 21:18:16< boucman> hotplugging is mainly an OS problem...
20100409 21:18:23< mordante> exactly
20100409 21:18:52< lfernando> we suggested that way as where the global variables will be stored
20100409 21:19:02< mordante> also your timeline needs more details
20100409 21:19:02< lfernando> but it's still open to some discussion
20100409 21:19:13< lfernando> and implementation will be very alike
20100409 21:19:31< lfernando> whenever it is stored
20100409 21:19:36< mordante> true
20100409 21:19:46< lfernando> wherever*
20100409 21:19:47< Crab_> Achilles: I've read your proposal (actually, I've read the version at google site during the day, and reread the wiki one atm)
20100409 21:19:59< gabba> hi
20100409 21:20:04< lfernando> about the timeline
20100409 21:20:09< Crab_> hi, gabba
20100409 21:20:09< mordante> we just like to have a working prototype soon, since it makes your application stronger, that is if you have time for it
20100409 21:20:11< mordante> hi gabba 
20100409 21:20:16< boucman> hey gabba
20100409 21:20:34< lfernando> I put a big chunk of time
20100409 21:20:37< gabba> hey all :)
20100409 21:20:42< lfernando> on the last part (the gamemaster)
20100409 21:20:45< lfernando> hey gabba =)
20100409 21:21:13< lfernando> but it needs some detailing
20100409 21:21:35< boucman> gabba: did you see http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=29422 ? the UI ideas are dubious, but the concept of getting info on what happens if an ennemy unit attack you would be usefull, you might want to look at it as an optional feature for your whiteboard
20100409 21:22:03< Crab_> Achilles: a question: what do you think about current way of using lua scripts as a backend for AI components ?
20100409 21:22:12< gabba> thanks boucman, I'll take a look
20100409 21:22:21< Crab_> gabba: you can allow the player to set the planned moves for enemies, too.
20100409 21:22:41< Crab_> gabba: that way, those will be 'expected enemy moves', and you'll be able to reuse a lot of things.
20100409 21:23:08< gabba> Crab_: Sounded strange at first, but hmmm, could be very interesting
20100409 21:23:21< Crab_> gabba: but, note that if any of 'extend alliances' ideas be accepted, there will be a number of weird issues
20100409 21:23:50< mordante> I'm afk now
20100409 21:23:50< Crab_> gabba: as there'll be possibility for 'your enemy is not the enemy of your friend' things
20100409 21:23:56< gabba> Crab_: weird? I thought it would just come down to share/not share planned moves with various people
20100409 21:24:14< Achilles> Crab_:ok
20100409 21:24:31< boucman> wrt alliances, they probably wouldn't influence the first step (SP) of your proposal much, and at the point when you start looking at MP you'll probably know more about what the other student is going to do
20100409 21:24:43< Achilles> boucman: so i shud replace the word private with review, correct?
20100409 21:25:03< boucman> Achilles: i didn't do it myself, but I assume yes
20100409 21:25:08< Crab_> gabba: the groups of 'various people' can weirdly overlap or change during the turn, if alliances idea is implemented
20100409 21:25:13< boucman> do it and check it's a valid URL
20100409 21:25:21< Achilles> okk
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20100409 21:25:40< Crab_> gabba: don't need to concern much about it atm, but place a note somewhere..
20100409 21:25:48< gabba> Crab_: ok
20100409 21:26:26-!- happygrue_ [~George@wesnoth/developer/wintermute] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100409 21:28:35< gabba> happygrue, happygrue_: new mockup on moves in cramped areas, if you want to take a look: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/index.php?title=GSoC-WesnothWhiteboard_Gabba#Manoeuvering_in_cramped_areas
20100409 21:28:41-!- timotei [~timotei21@193.34.191.4] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
20100409 21:30:06-!- happygrue [~George@wesnoth/developer/wintermute] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
20100409 21:30:56< Crab_> Achilles: what about my question ? (" what do you think about current way of using lua scripts as a backend for AI components ?")
20100409 21:31:07< Achilles> boucman: no...it's not a valid url...
20100409 21:31:23-!- happygrue_ [~George@wesnoth/developer/wintermute] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
20100409 21:32:02< boucman> gabba: did you try with thinner arrows ?
20100409 21:32:50-!- happygrue [~George@wesnoth/developer/wintermute] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100409 21:32:51< gabba> boucman: you mean thinner, but still overlapping, or trying to route several thin arrows without overlapping?
20100409 21:33:29< boucman> still overlappin, way thinner, probably drawn on top of units (should be ok with small arrows)
20100409 21:35:38< Achilles> Crab_: i have not used Lua before, as I have mentioned in my proposal...i am going to spend the entire next week getting up to speed on i...but give me a moment to answer your question as best as i can
20100409 21:35:49< Achilles> *it
20100409 21:36:32< gabba> boucman: it would change the look, but I don't know if it would be clearer. One thing I thought of, though, is to make the start of the arrow different so we can distinguish who actually moves, and who is on the path of someone else. Dunno if there's space for that though
20100409 21:36:33< Crab_> ok. the files are src/scripting/lua.cpp and src/ai/composite/engine_lua.cpp and data/ai/scenarios/scenario-lua-ai.cfg and data/ai/lua/stdlib.lua
20100409 21:37:12< noy> hey gabba I won't be able to show up tonight
20100409 21:37:13< noy> sorry
20100409 21:37:31< boucman> ok, looking at your graphics again, you probably want to reduce the head of the arrow, the arrow itself is probably fine
20100409 21:37:41< gabba> noy: ah, too bad, I was looking forward for my multiplayer lesson
20100409 21:37:48< noy> but wintermute, jb or natasiel will be there to help you
20100409 21:37:58< boucman> but when you look at any hex neighbouring an arrival hex, the arrow fills it too much and makes the stuff quite unreadable
20100409 21:38:11< gabba> noy: ok, I'll look for them, do you know for sure if they'll be around?
20100409 21:38:22< happygrue> gabba: I am Wintermute
20100409 21:38:26< noy> its friday
20100409 21:38:28< noy> they usually are
20100409 21:38:32< happygrue> gabba: what time are you thinking about being on?
20100409 21:38:37< happygrue> (hours from now)
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20100409 21:40:03< gabba> happygrue: I'd say, 6 hours from now, but I can adjust
20100409 21:40:54< happygrue> that should work well for me, I will be a bit later than usual tonight, so I'll probably log on around 5-6 hours from now
20100409 21:41:05< happygrue> gabba: do you prefer to play or to watch?
20100409 21:41:17< gabba> boucman: I agree about the arrow head.
20100409 21:41:21< happygrue> either is good, I'll wait for you if would like to play
20100409 21:41:47< boucman> daamn, that' way too late for me, I won't be able to look at your games :P
20100409 21:41:53< gabba> happygrue: playing would be better, I'll get a better idea of the influence of shroud
20100409 21:42:13< happygrue> boucman: you can see from the replay archive, though it is not the same ;)
20100409 21:42:18< happygrue> gabba: I agree
20100409 21:42:20< gabba> happygrue: Noy was proposing that I be on your team in a 3v3 game or something like that
20100409 21:42:21< boucman> indeed
20100409 21:42:33< happygrue> gabba: sure, it depends on who else is on
20100409 21:42:46< gabba> boucman: maybe it's better for my reputation that a minimum of people watch this game :P
20100409 21:42:52< happygrue> I'll be in and out until then, but we will match up and figure something out.
20100409 21:43:12< boucman> hehe
20100409 21:43:51< gabba> happygrue: ok. Did you see the link I posted above btw?
20100409 21:44:00< happygrue> RNG decides all games, so it doesn't matter if you win or lose... ;)
20100409 21:44:03< happygrue> no
20100409 21:44:12< gabba> http://wiki.wesnoth.org/index.php?title=GSoC-WesnothWhiteboard_Gabba#Manoeuvering_in_cramped_areas
20100409 21:45:05< gabba> happygrue: boucman already noticed the obvious issue with the arrow head, it was a bit too hasty a job
20100409 21:45:13-!- stikonas [~and@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
20100409 21:49:49< happygrue> gabba: interesting
20100409 21:50:39< happygrue> it's a all a bit tentative, due to not knowing quite what the arrow/bubble art will look like in the end, but I like the less cluttered interface
20100409 21:51:39< happygrue> hitting tab to go back and forth between a display of the future state of the game and where your units are now might be amazing or confusing
20100409 21:51:48< happygrue> or a bit of both, I don't know just from looking at it.
20100409 21:52:35< gabba> happygrue: confusing, I don't think so, since it'll basically make the ghosts solid (so there'll be some visual continuity), and make arrows and current units disappear
20100409 21:52:45< happygrue> I guess I in favor of it, as I tend to do something like that with the current system anyway
20100409 21:53:33< happygrue> gabba: what I mean is that you see something that needs to change, you tab back into a world of arrows and units in different places than you just saw and have to figure out which move to cancel and move somewhere else
20100409 21:53:43< happygrue> that has the potential to be a bit confusing I think
20100409 21:53:55< gabba> happygrue: ah yes, the other way around it's confusing indeed
20100409 21:53:59< happygrue> er, maybe confusing isn't the right word
20100409 21:54:06< happygrue> but just needs some adjusting to
20100409 21:54:14< happygrue> but I think it is a great feature
20100409 21:54:18< gabba> bewildering? befuddling?
20100409 21:54:46< happygrue> I do that now by making 5 moves, double checking "best moves" sometimes or just eyeballing it, but under the current system I have to undo all to make a change
20100409 21:55:06< happygrue> and in your system moves could be edited without cancelling the whole stack
20100409 21:55:17< gabba> happygrue: you're the perfect client for my system then ;)
20100409 21:55:33< happygrue> s/stack/queue/
20100409 21:55:38< happygrue> perhaps so
20100409 21:55:43< happygrue> it is apealing
20100409 21:55:59< happygrue> much will depend on how 'nice' the interface ends up feeling
20100409 21:56:08< gabba> happygrue: of course
20100409 21:56:12< happygrue> :)
20100409 21:56:22< happygrue> no pressure :P
20100409 21:57:41< gabba> I won't settle for anything that doesn't feel good to use, I'm pretty demanding myself as far as interfaces go - but of course everybody has his own pet peeves
20100409 21:59:01< happygrue> gabba: of course this is all in proposal stage still, I don't want to get ahead of things.  But let's play tonight and you can see if that gives you any fresh ideas. :)
20100409 22:00:04< gabba> yup!
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20100409 22:01:37< gabba> going afk now to get some study in before the game
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20100409 22:18:17< lfernando> boucman: yes, Campinas is a city in Brazil
20100409 22:18:20< lfernando> =)
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20100409 22:21:04< norbert_> little detail: Siege Castles is 36x36, but the description says 40x30
20100409 22:23:28< lfernando> boucman: a little about the GM idea
20100409 22:24:02< boucman> lfernando: we can discuss it a little, but make sure to write everything in your wiki...
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20100409 22:34:42< Achilles> Crab_: Lua is very good for configuration..isn't this an important part of the backend?
20100409 22:34:46< Achilles> configuring the state of an AI component
20100409 22:35:19< Crab_> Achilles: no, the question is about 'what do you think about current state of lua-ai integration, about the way it's currently done ?
20100409 22:36:21< Achilles> ok, you mean the way it's done in the files you had mentioned?
20100409 22:36:30< Crab_> yes
20100409 22:36:53< Crab_> since the project is not about 'coding from scratch', some of the work is already done
20100409 22:40:00< Achilles> true
20100409 22:40:15< Achilles> i'll look up the files and get back to you
20100409 22:40:37< Crab_> good
20100409 22:41:05< Crab_> also be sure to find out what 'candidate action' and 'stage' are (those are ai component types)
20100409 22:41:14< Crab_> see http://wiki.wesnoth.org/Customizing_AI_in_Wesnoth_1.8
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20100409 22:45:17< Achilles> ok...
20100409 22:46:16< Achilles> g2g...will get back to you on your question by tomorrow...
20100409 22:47:14< Crab_> ok. if I wouldn't be there, leave a msg in the logs or just write an explanation to the wiki.
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20100409 22:47:24< Crab_> hi, icelus
20100409 22:47:29< icelus> hey Crab_ 
20100409 22:47:34< boucman> hey icelus
20100409 22:47:38< Achilles> ok...will do
20100409 22:47:39< boucman> I had a look at your patch
20100409 22:47:41< Achilles> bye
20100409 22:47:47< Crab_> bye
20100409 22:47:47< icelus> boucman, i saw your mail
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20100409 22:48:28< icelus> boucman, uh comment i mean; some of the points in my last mail should answer some things
20100409 22:48:43< boucman> k, i'll dig it up from my archives
20100409 22:48:48< icelus> boucman, i'm happy to call skip "last"
20100409 22:48:52< icelus> i think that's a good change
20100409 22:49:05< icelus> the quit button I surfaced because it was clearly the intent to have one originally
20100409 22:49:07< boucman> and the > vs >> too
20100409 22:49:09< icelus> and non-trivial to implement
20100409 22:49:13< icelus> yeah that's good
20100409 22:50:02< icelus> i think this is fine, maybe i should leave a commented out quit button in?
20100409 22:50:17< icelus> there was already a commented out quit button
20100409 22:50:22< icelus> just mine works and that one didn't
20100409 22:50:50< icelus> i think "last" could disappear on the last page, or grey itself out
20100409 22:50:56< icelus> and "back" could disappear on the first page
20100409 22:51:21< boucman> true
20100409 22:51:32< icelus> so you'd have "next >" "last>>" on the first page, "next >", "back <", "last >>" on intermediate pages and "done", "back <" on the last page
20100409 22:51:57< boucman> on the last page, you could rename last to "play" or something like that
20100409 22:52:01< icelus> yeah
20100409 22:52:03< icelus> play is fine
20100409 22:52:08< boucman> or done
20100409 22:52:13< icelus> play makes more sense than done maybe
20100409 22:52:20< icelus> i'm happy to do "play"
20100409 22:52:26< icelus> after all you aren't done
20100409 22:52:28< icelus> you're just starting
20100409 22:52:30< boucman> whichever you prefer
20100409 22:52:30< icelus> so play is good
20100409 22:52:57< boucman> about quit, i personally would leave it out, however we might discuss it with shadowmaster
20100409 22:53:01< boucman> shadowmaster: around ,
20100409 22:53:02< boucman> ?
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20100409 22:54:31< boucman> icelus: about about.cfg, are you already in ?
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20100409 22:54:42< icelus> boucman, no
20100409 22:54:44< boucman> k
20100409 22:54:50< icelus> boucman, but like i said in my mail i'm content to be unlisted for now
20100409 22:54:58< boucman> oh, ok
20100409 22:55:10< icelus> boucman, putting my name/email in a commit message if/when a patch is applied would be nice
20100409 22:55:13< icelus> but isn't necessary
20100409 22:55:24< boucman> sure thing
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20100409 22:56:07< boucman> we're perfectly fine with having you in about.cfg, your patch is enough for that, and you can only put your nick in if you want
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20100409 22:56:31< icelus> Crab_, I'm implementing a trial solution to #15560 which I believe will work
20100409 22:56:39< Crab_> cool :)
20100409 22:56:43< icelus> Crab_, the discussions with silene really simplified the problem in my mind
20100409 22:56:57< icelus> basically in prestart and preload we need to use synced rngs
20100409 22:57:01< Crab_> that's good!
20100409 22:57:09< icelus> because there is no gui or network at that point
20100409 22:57:19< icelus> and the wml designer is free to use the start event
20100409 22:57:20< Crab_> 'work with RNG' is not a full solution
20100409 22:57:23< icelus> if that's what they're looking for
20100409 22:57:40< Crab_> we need to deal with external input, too
20100409 22:57:41< icelus> after start, we can use the replay as silene wanted to
20100409 22:57:44< icelus> right
20100409 22:57:45< Crab_> ok
20100409 22:57:47< icelus> there are 3 cases
20100409 22:58:01< icelus> you can't have external input in prestart and preload period
20100409 22:58:08< icelus> the gui is locked and the replay doesn't exist
20100409 22:58:14< icelus> after those events tho
20100409 22:58:18< lfernando> boucman: just discussed the idea with Crab_ in the mean time and will write a few changes
20100409 22:58:18< icelus> you can have such input
20100409 22:58:26< icelus> and so you go to a master/slave situation with the replay
20100409 22:58:39< icelus> i've implemented some helper functions to make this less difficult in future
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20100409 22:58:58< icelus> i will port any other wml handlers to it once i've checked it works in all cases
20100409 22:59:11< Crab_> icelus: that's good. be sure to post the patch to allow to test it more
20100409 22:59:15< icelus> Crab_, will do
20100409 22:59:31< boucman> lfernando: ok, 
20100409 22:59:33< icelus> one issue is there were endless problems like this already
20100409 22:59:43< icelus> like it really wasn't well formed
20100409 22:59:49< icelus> for example we call advance unit
20100409 22:59:53< icelus> not knowing if it can advance
20100409 22:59:57< icelus> which is a huge problem
20100409 23:00:03< icelus> because if you don't know if it can advance
20100409 23:00:12< icelus> then you don't know if there even is a choice waiting for you i nthe replay
20100409 23:00:20< Crab_> yes, right..
20100409 23:00:24< icelus> so i added a helper function which encapsulates the decision
20100409 23:00:32< icelus> "unit_will_certainly_advance()"
20100409 23:00:47< icelus> it covers all the tests that were done
20100409 23:00:52< icelus> that could have prevented a unit advancing
20100409 23:01:26< icelus> essentially i had to explode the advance_unit function a bit
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20100409 23:01:31< icelus> so that it was safer
20100409 23:01:53< icelus> the logic it has is the same, but its now there to be called by the game mechanics in normal play only
20100409 23:01:55< icelus> not from wml
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20100409 23:02:02< icelus> from wml it was never safe to call in the first place
20100409 23:02:13< pokhbocee> boucman: sorry for the late response. crabo requested me to do a real ai work and wanted me to submit the pseudo code to the gna. if i didnt understand it wrong
20100409 23:02:14< icelus> just a mass of dangerous code
20100409 23:02:42< boucman> pokhbocee: ok, it's just that I was suprised to see pseudo-code as a patch and was wondering what it was
20100409 23:03:00< boucman> if Crab_ knows what it is, i'll assign it to him and let him do the job
20100409 23:03:24< pokhbocee> boucman: i hope everything is ok
20100409 23:03:28< Crab_> boucman: ok
20100409 23:03:36< Crab_> boucman: all is ok there.
20100409 23:03:58< boucman> pokhbocee: sure, it's just that i'm the "de-facto" patch guy, so I look after those things
20100409 23:04:16< boucman> (though everybody handles patches around during the pre-soc period)
20100409 23:04:58< icelus> Crab_, actually though honestly although i'm implementing this to deal with external input
20100409 23:05:04< icelus> i'm not 100% sure its the right choice
20100409 23:05:06< icelus> just going back
20100409 23:05:24< icelus> working with synced rngs is a strong candidate for the whole solution
20100409 23:05:27< icelus> its many times simpler
20100409 23:05:31< fendrin> gabba: http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=29422
20100409 23:05:33< icelus> easily verifiable
20100409 23:05:47< icelus> and at no time has there ever been a functioning alternative
20100409 23:06:02< Crab_> icelus: we will need to deal with external input, too
20100409 23:06:18< icelus> Crab_, why?
20100409 23:06:27< icelus> Crab_, that part isn't clear to me
20100409 23:06:27< Crab_> icelus: e.g., one of summer of code projects will need synced access to variables from a different network host
20100409 23:07:01< icelus> Crab_, it's not clear to me that that's a sensible thing to be doing
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20100409 23:07:11< icelus> at the very least you can't do it in some events
20100409 23:07:17< icelus> in preload and prestart that isn't well formed
20100409 23:07:18< gabba> fendrin: see http://wiki.wesnoth.org/GSoC-WW_Optional_Future_Gabba ;) -- boucman already pointed me to the thread
20100409 23:07:42< Crab_> icelus: well, since it'll be a new thing, we can restrict the places where it can be used
20100409 23:08:04< icelus> Crab_, right, and in fact we should go back and classify these things carefully
20100409 23:08:11< icelus> like message event handlers
20100409 23:08:11< pokhbocee> Crab_: i dont know did u take a look at the psuedo code but i have doubt it can be implemented in wml. 
20100409 23:08:19< icelus> should throw a warning if used in prestart/preload
20100409 23:09:05< gabba> fendrin: btw at some point it would be nice if you could review my proposal - right now I'm studying, but you could either leave me messages here, or give me your comments tomorrow
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20100409 23:18:03< Crab_> pokhbocee: reading now
20100409 23:18:40< pokhbocee> Crab_: ill be out for lunch and be back soon
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20100409 23:19:52< Crab_> pokhbocee: starting with overall - there's a problem there - you don't know the combat results in advance, so you cannot commit all the attacks at the same time, you need to commit them 1-by-1, reevaluating the new situation.
20100409 23:20:10< icelus> pop quiz: how long does it take you guys to recompile wesnoth
20100409 23:20:18< icelus> i really ought to buy a new machine this is useless
20100409 23:20:28< icelus> my 1999 amd athlon takes hours, literally
20100409 23:20:36< icelus> every time i touch one of the main headers
20100409 23:21:57< Crab_> icelus: 2Ghz 2GB ram, encrypted HDD: something like this: about 60 minutes for a full debug build, about 20 minutes for a full normal build, and quite fast for an incremental build where nothing too important changed
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20100409 23:23:11< icelus> wow
20100409 23:23:15< icelus> that's ridiculously faster
20100409 23:23:23< Crab_> icelus: how much ram you've got ?
20100409 23:23:25< icelus> 1gb
20100409 23:23:46< icelus> its my processor lets me down
20100409 23:24:01< icelus> the athlon thunderbird is >1 decade old now
20100409 23:24:07< icelus> and it just doesn't have the efficiency
20100409 23:24:15< icelus> i mean theoretically its half the the speed of your machine
20100409 23:24:22< icelus> but i think its more like a factor of 6-10
20100409 23:24:25< icelus> from those timings
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20100409 23:24:38< Crab_> icelus: are you using 'gold' linker ?
20100409 23:24:38< icelus> because you got less bang for the clock cycle back then too
20100409 23:24:46< icelus> whats that?
20100409 23:24:54< fakedrake> Crab_: finished the have_unit patch
20100409 23:25:05< Crab_> icelus: binutils/gold
20100409 23:25:07< fakedrake> but havent tested it
20100409 23:25:23< icelus> Crab_, i'm not
20100409 23:25:23< Crab_> fakedrake: test it and if it works, submit it :)
20100409 23:25:32< Crab_> icelus: try, it should speed things up.
20100409 23:25:49< icelus> Crab_, cool i will, thanks for the tip
20100409 23:25:55< fakedrake> pff, ok
20100409 23:26:23< Crab_> icelus: http://google-opensource.blogspot.com/2008/04/gold-google-releases-new-and-improved.html
20100409 23:27:17< gabba> boucman, re the arrows, here's a slightly better take: http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/download/file.php?id=39793&mode=view
20100409 23:29:44< boucman> I like the starting circles, but the heads are still a bit "long"
20100409 23:29:53< boucman> and I need to go to bed, see you all tomorow
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--- Log closed Sat Apr 10 00:00:30 2010