--- Log opened Sat Apr 10 00:00:30 2010
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20100410 00:36:09< fakedrake> does event tag supprt ifs
20100410 00:36:10< fakedrake> ?
20100410 00:36:20< fakedrake> Crab_
20100410 00:36:57< Crab_> yes
20100410 00:38:32< Espreon> If it didn't then... ugh...
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20100410 00:39:04< Crab_> pokhbocee: hi
20100410 00:39:13< pokhbocee> Crab_: hello
20100410 00:39:40< Crab_> I've looked through the pseudocode
20100410 00:39:57< pokhbocee> yeah i saw ur comment on the log
20100410 00:40:23< pokhbocee> im not commiting the actions
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20100410 00:40:49< pokhbocee> since there is no function that can assume the move is committed
20100410 00:41:03< pokhbocee> i have created dummy objects 
20100410 00:41:46< pokhbocee> while creating the tree i apply the move on the dummy objects so the following units move is calculated according to that situation
20100410 00:42:03< Crab_> pokhbocee: well, I was just stating that after all the evaluation, when you finally pick the things to do, you need to do at most one attack, then reeavaluate.
20100410 00:42:20< pokhbocee> ohhh 
20100410 00:42:24< Crab_> as there's random results which are not known before the attack
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20100410 00:42:44< Crab_> you might be able to do a partial reevaluation, but in case WML action are involved, you might be not
20100410 00:42:58< Crab_> s/action/event
20100410 00:43:10< Crab_> as a WML event can do anything on the map after a move/attack/etc
20100410 00:43:24< Crab_> generally, for moves, you can not reevaluate 99% of the time
20100410 00:43:29< Crab_> but for attack, you must reevaluate 
20100410 00:43:32< pokhbocee> after each move is committed ai should perform the all tasks again
20100410 00:43:48< Crab_> yes. maybe some things can be cached, if we're optimistic
20100410 00:44:07< Crab_> another issue is with https://gna.org/file/gsoc_task_main_tree.txt?file_id=8884 
20100410 00:44:13< Crab_> with    new_node(index,move,node.game_info)  line
20100410 00:44:23< Crab_> how it can be implemented to work *fast* ?
20100410 00:44:53< pokhbocee> what do u mean?
20100410 00:45:25< Crab_> well, we need new_node(index,move,node.game_info)  and move_worth_to_do(new_node) to be fast
20100410 00:45:42< Crab_> the speed on  move_worth_to_do(new_node) depends on the speed of evaluators, nothing fancy there
20100410 00:45:53< Crab_> but how will new_node(index,move,node.game_info) be implemented ?
20100410 00:46:03< pokhbocee> ohh i see
20100410 00:46:12< Crab_> will you do a full copy of the unit map and team information such as gold ?
20100410 00:46:15< fakedrake> ok tested
20100410 00:46:26< Crab_> fakedrake: good! submit a patch, then :)
20100410 00:46:33< Crab_> (assuming it worked) 
20100410 00:46:37< fakedrake> cool
20100410 00:46:38< pokhbocee> yes
20100410 00:46:39< fakedrake> w8
20100410 00:47:01< pokhbocee> game_info contains all the information that ai needs as evidence
20100410 00:47:12< Crab_> yes
20100410 00:47:15< pokhbocee> and that part will just sets the variables to parameters
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20100410 00:47:24< pokhbocee> and apply_move is also easy
20100410 00:47:35< pokhbocee> it will update the location of our unit
20100410 00:47:44< pokhbocee> and apply expected damage to both units
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20100410 00:47:55< Crab_> yes, apply is easy
20100410 00:48:02< pokhbocee> i was using array so its all constant
20100410 00:48:07< Crab_> but, with new_node,  you would just copy the unit map and fully recalculate all the movement maps ?
20100410 00:48:13< Crab_> that'll be slow (
20100410 00:48:29< pokhbocee> yes that is the main problem actually
20100410 00:48:32< Crab_> yes
20100410 00:48:45< pokhbocee> i was thinking to calculate all possible moves
20100410 00:48:49< pokhbocee> in the begininng
20100410 00:48:55< Crab_> note that there are ZoC and teleport issues which make 'amending' the movement maps tricky
20100410 00:49:13< pokhbocee> and when it comes to that unit , just remove the moves that points to occupied locations
20100410 00:49:26< Crab_> and you need to adds some new moves
20100410 00:49:36< Crab_> e.g., if you expect an enemy to be killed
20100410 00:49:44< Crab_> then, it won't block you if you kill it
20100410 00:49:49< fakedrake> the code of my checkout has many more comments than the trunk, that means the line numbers are not the same, should i do a new checkout and do the changes there?
20100410 00:49:54< fakedrake> Crab_
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20100410 00:50:45< Crab_> fakedrake: if you think that your patch (with only the relevant changes) will not apply cleanly to trunk, best do a second checkout (or a git branch) and apply your patch there
20100410 00:51:02< Crab_> fakedrake: line numbers are not a big problem, context is.
20100410 00:51:02< pokhbocee> for that we hve to recalculate all the time
20100410 00:51:03< fakedrake> ok
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20100410 00:51:47< pokhbocee> thats why i didnt do it as i said. because some units can be killed or moved so if even i calculate all possible moves for initial state, i have to recalculate again. so i just made it that way 
20100410 00:52:05< pokhbocee> but if we dont repeat the procedure after commiting every move
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20100410 00:52:18< pokhbocee> that is not going to be a problem and i believe we dont need to do that
20100410 00:52:28< Crab_> pokhbocee: moves are ok in 99% cases, actually. attacks are a problem
20100410 00:52:29< pokhbocee> because on the long run
20100410 00:52:47< pokhbocee> oh my mistake about definition
20100410 00:52:58< pokhbocee> i used move = move unit to loc + attack
20100410 00:53:12< pokhbocee> so except the retreat_move
20100410 00:53:12< Crab_> action = move|attack|recruit|recall|moveattack|fullmove|stop 
20100410 00:53:21< Crab_> something like that
20100410 00:53:42< fakedrake> i am not sure, i will do them on a clean checkout anyway
20100410 00:54:03< pokhbocee> i think i am out of that order
20100410 00:54:15< pokhbocee> to better result on recruiting
20100410 00:54:20< pokhbocee> i put that in the end 
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20100410 00:54:44< pokhbocee> so after all attacks are commited leaders consider the situation in both zones and recruit according to that evidence
20100410 00:55:10< pokhbocee> in psuedocode the move basically consist of moving to a location and attacking to a enemy.
20100410 00:55:27< pokhbocee> if enemy is not in range than it just moves
20100410 00:56:11< pokhbocee> i believe the only missing thing in this pseudocode is enemy's response
20100410 00:56:45< pokhbocee> that would be really costly 
20100410 00:57:14< Crab_> well, current ai deals with it by approximating 'enemy power projection'
20100410 00:57:16< pokhbocee> actually my main purpose on here was to reduce the complexity of the creation of tree and choosing nodes to commit
20100410 00:57:35< pokhbocee> oh i use something similar but only for recruiting
20100410 00:57:47< Crab_> see the power_projection function to see the idea - basically, it can find out how much 'firepower' an enemy can bring on a particular hex
20100410 00:57:47< pokhbocee> did you look at h_battlefield
20100410 00:58:04< pokhbocee> oh mine is different
20100410 00:58:34< pokhbocee> is it for all of our units or just single hex
20100410 00:59:02< Crab_> for a single hex
20100410 01:00:40< Crab_> yes, I've looked at it, too
20100410 01:00:58< Crab_> but, it's not so important as the new_node part
20100410 01:02:21< pokhbocee> other than using memory, i couldnt understand the problem
20100410 01:02:48< Crab_> speed
20100410 01:03:06< Crab_> can you implement a prototype of it in c++ ?
20100410 01:03:12< pokhbocee> ok
20100410 01:03:17< Crab_> of the new_node part, on wesnoth's source
20100410 01:03:22< pokhbocee> oh ok
20100410 01:03:30< Crab_> just stub out the heuristics
20100410 01:03:37< pokhbocee> ok
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20100410 01:03:51< Crab_> that's good
20100410 01:04:08< pokhbocee> new_node(index,move,node.game_info)
20100410 01:04:22< Crab_> yes, something like this
20100410 01:04:37< pokhbocee> this line is actually new_node = new(index,move,node.game_info)
20100410 01:04:51< pokhbocee> ups
20100410 01:04:56< pokhbocee> this line is actually new_node = node(index,move,node.game_info)
20100410 01:05:13< Crab_> it might be better to use some kind of swap operation for src/ai/game_info.hpp
20100410 01:05:34< Crab_> to allow all code which uses it to work with a 'hypothetical' game state
20100410 01:05:53< Crab_> e.g., in 'new' part, store the old game info and place the new info in there
20100410 01:07:31< pokhbocee> that is what i did
20100410 01:07:48< pokhbocee> game_info represents the game state
20100410 01:08:15< Crab_> good. yes, it represent the ai view of the game state
20100410 01:08:20< pokhbocee> yes
20100410 01:08:39< Crab_> at least the c++ uses only the game state from there and from structures it includes
20100410 01:08:46< Crab_> s/c++/c++ ai
20100410 01:09:30< pokhbocee> ?
20100410 01:10:20< fakedrake> is include_recall a good keyword for the purpose?
20100410 01:11:08< Crab_> no, as the purpose is not clear :)
20100410 01:11:40< fakedrake> ho9w obout read_recall_list
20100410 01:12:46< Crab_> can you explain what 'this purpose' is about ?
20100410 01:12:59< Crab_> I thought that you were talking about 'new node'
20100410 01:14:10< pokhbocee> Crab_: are u talking to me :D im confused
20100410 01:14:18< pokhbocee> or to fakedrake 
20100410 01:14:19< Crab_> pokhbocee: ah, sorry :)
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20100410 01:14:40< Crab_> fakedrake: sorry, I've misunderstood a bit :)
20100410 01:14:55< fakedrake> its ok
20100410 01:14:59< fakedrake> http://wiki.wesnoth.org/EasyCoding#Make_.5Bhave_unit.5D_optionaly_use_full_SUF
20100410 01:15:27< fakedrake> Crab_:i put as key word tha name include_recall
20100410 01:15:49< fakedrake> then i suggested read_recall_list instead
20100410 01:15:58< fakedrake> what is your opinion
20100410 01:16:00< fakedrake> ?
20100410 01:16:23< Crab_> fakedrake: include_recall is better, then
20100410 01:16:33< fakedrake> ok thanx
20100410 01:16:40< Crab_> fakedrake: because: "read" can mean 'read ONLY the recall list'
20100410 01:16:46< CIA-32> ai0867 * r42062 /branches/fendrin_editor/ (1425 files in 153 dirs): Merge trunk changes in /data, /utils and /po up to r42061
20100410 01:17:35< Crab_> fakedrake: also see that, in  http://wiki.wesnoth.org/StandardUnitFilter,  x,y=recall,recall have special meaning
20100410 01:18:10< Crab_> fakedrake: so, you can just make [have_unit]x,y=recall,recall        work (if it doesn't work already)
20100410 01:19:10< CIA-32> ai0867 * r42063 /branches/fendrin_editor/ (86 files in 36 dirs): Merge trunk changes in /scons, /projectfiles, /images, /doc, /icons, /misc up to r42061
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20100410 01:21:24< CIA-32> ai0867 * r42064 /branches/fendrin_editor/ (8 files): Merge trunk changes in everything except /src up to r42061
20100410 01:21:31< Crab_> night
20100410 01:22:20-!- Crab_ [~Crab_@wesnoth/developer/crab] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
20100410 01:31:35< gabba> minervE33
20100410 01:37:21-!- deekay [~dk@wesnoth/developer/dragonking] has quit [Quit: deekay]
20100410 01:41:48< gabba> wesbot: bug #15560
20100410 01:41:50< wesbot> Bug #15560  Assigned to: Yurii Chernyi <crab>  Status: None  Priority: 7 - High
20100410 01:41:53< wesbot> Summary: Dark forecast - Spawning & Sync Errors ("[unstore_unit] advance=true" is not MP-safe)
20100410 01:41:56< wesbot> Original submission: This is my first bug report, bear with me.I've been p
20100410 01:41:59< wesbot> laying the team survival Dark forecast with a friend, both the latest beta (1.7.
20100410 01:42:02< wesbot> URL: https://gna.org/bugs/?15560
20100410 01:42:04< wesbot> Attached file (1st): https://gna.org/bugs/download.php?file_id=8471
20100410 01:43:50< gabba> wesbot: bug #15781 
20100410 01:43:51< wesbot> Bug #15781  Assigned to: None  Status: None  Priority: 5 - Normal
20100410 01:43:51< wesbot> Summary: On maps with statues player can pick statues team
20100410 01:43:51< wesbot> Original submission: On maps with statues player can pick statues team (while 
20100410 01:43:54< wesbot> creating game / setting sides). That allows player that picked statues team to s
20100410 01:43:57< wesbot> URL: https://gna.org/bugs/?15781
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20100410 01:51:01-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: GSoC: Thanks to all GSoC candidates for submitting proposals to Google. Accepted student applications announced on April 26. | 86 bugs, 264 feature requests, 17 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
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20100410 02:03:02< AI0867> fendrin: why did you changet teams_ and units_ in game_display from vector<team>& to vector<team>* ?
20100410 02:03:05< AI0867> you
20100410 02:03:11< AI0867> you're not reseating them
20100410 02:05:14< icelus> AI0867, after some reflection the system you sketched for fixing synchrony in 15560 looks like the best to me
20100410 02:05:19< icelus> did you find problems with the approach
20100410 02:05:26< icelus> or did you not get around to implementing it
20100410 02:05:31< icelus> i have it coded and it looks like working
20100410 02:05:43< icelus> i just wanted to know if you ran into pitfalls i should look out for
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20100410 02:14:34< AI0867> icelus: I haven't touched it, as I'm unfamiliar with the replay code (and you were working on it)
20100410 02:14:49< icelus> AI0867, ok cool
20100410 02:14:54< icelus> AI0867, i think your idea was the right one
20100410 02:15:01< icelus> AI0867, the replay stuff is horrid =p
20100410 02:15:10< icelus> but we have to preserve it
20100410 02:15:14< AI0867> that's why I've never dug deeper than I had to
20100410 02:15:27< icelus> this is going to need a lot of testing...
20100410 02:15:30< icelus> this is a dumb question but
20100410 02:15:31-!- fakedrake [~fakedrake@142.131.68.147] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
20100410 02:15:34< icelus> is there an easy way to start
20100410 02:15:40< icelus> on the 2nd map in a campaign say
20100410 02:15:59< Espreon> Use cl
20100410 02:16:05< AI0867> :debug, :cl
20100410 02:16:09< Espreon> Yeah.
20100410 02:16:35< AI0867> alternatively (if the second scenario doesn't depend on units gained in the first), temporarily change the first_scenario key in the campaign's _main.cfg
20100410 02:16:58< icelus> it's np i just waste so much time
20100410 02:17:02< icelus> sitting waiting for this to load
20100410 02:17:05< icelus> my machine is slow =p
20100410 02:17:11< icelus> and running two wesnoths is very very slow
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20100410 02:30:05< CIA-32> ai0867 * r42065 /branches/fendrin_editor/src/ (272 files in 22 dirs): Finish merging trunk up to r42061
20100410 02:31:13< AI0867> fendrin: ^, you want to test whether everything still works properly though, the reversion of your refactoring in trunk after the branch did some really nasty stuff. I'm not sure I caught it all
20100410 02:32:24< AI0867> I haven't even tested if it compiles yet, as that would take an hour on this machine, and I need sleep now (it's not like anyone depends on this branch)
20100410 02:33:58< AI0867> icelus: 'this machine' is a netbook: EeePC 900HD: 900 MHz celeron, 1 GB RAM
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20100410 02:34:53< AI0867> btw, ccache *really* helps if you revert header changes later on
20100410 02:35:17< icelus> AI0867, my machine is an athlon thunderbird 1ghz
20100410 02:35:21< icelus> 1999 vintage
20100410 02:35:27< icelus> 1gb ram
20100410 02:35:40< icelus> basically comparable i would say =p
20100410 02:36:01< icelus> not sure if the celeron of that era was better cycle for cycle than the thunderbird or not
20100410 02:36:12< icelus> either way you'd have to agree
20100410 02:36:17< icelus> its pretty slow =p
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20100410 03:40:48< icelus> anyone alive?
20100410 03:41:10< icelus> do i submit a patch that fixes a bug to the bug itself in the GNA thing
20100410 03:41:18< icelus> or do i make a patch submission
20100410 03:41:25< icelus> and add a link to the bug?
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20100410 04:27:53< happygrue> icelus: the latter
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20100410 04:30:33< icelus> happygrue, thanks
20100410 04:31:06< Sirp> icelus: I do hope that you progress with this "new game using Wesnoth's resources" idea. It would be excellent if somebody did that.
20100410 04:32:29< icelus> Sirp, well it's one of the ideas im looking at
20100410 04:32:42< icelus> i'm helping out with wesnoth to familiarise myself with the codebase a little
20100410 04:32:56< icelus> i considered trying to revive silvertree but
20100410 04:33:07< icelus> i think i pretty much had enough of collada
20100410 04:33:16< icelus> one day i'll write a model format library
20100410 04:33:21< icelus> and consider it again
20100410 04:33:26< icelus> if someone else doesn't do it first
20100410 04:33:49< icelus> i tried a really quick a dirty wesnoth hack but g++ does terrible things that i don't understand
20100410 04:33:57< icelus> so it's not easy to reuse large sections of source code
20100410 04:34:05< icelus> at least not without more familiarity with it!
20100410 04:35:35< Sirp> icelus: I think the collada kinda sucks as a final format. The problem is there aren't a good easy Free set of tools for modelling 3D, afaict
20100410 04:35:41< Sirp> with a pipeline to a final well supported format.
20100410 04:35:53< Sirp> icelus: I would actually recommend NOT reusing Wesnoth's code base.
20100410 04:36:03< icelus> Sirp, why so?
20100410 04:36:08< icelus> Sirp, some parts seem attractive at least
20100410 04:36:12< Sirp> icelus: if you want a starting point I'd recommend using my Elensefar project as a starting point.
20100410 04:36:17< icelus> like WML would be a pain to support fro mscratch
20100410 04:36:21< Sirp> it's my own project to reuse Wesnoth's stuff.
20100410 04:36:24< icelus> but without WML i would lose terrain def
20100410 04:36:29< icelus> oh cool i willcheck it out
20100410 04:36:48< icelus> imo we could've saved ST by bailing collada and using quake2
20100410 04:37:05< icelus> and maybe restricting commit access some -p
20100410 04:37:05< Sirp> icelus: Wesnoth's code is fairly tightly coupled, unfortunately. :-/
20100410 04:37:09< Sirp> icelus: :)
20100410 04:37:19< icelus> Sirp, yeah i saw that myself!
20100410 04:37:23< icelus> but there's always hope
20100410 04:37:27< Sirp> icelus: yeah, the other concern I had with ST is, was it all that *fun* ?
20100410 04:37:38< icelus> Sirp, well i never understood what the game was anyway
20100410 04:37:44< icelus> which is why i concerned myself with the guis and graphics
20100410 04:37:50< icelus> i never really had a clear picture of where it was going
20100410 04:38:00< Sirp> icelus: as part of Elensefar I am trying to do a new clean terrain engine, though it's not all done yet.
20100410 04:38:18< icelus> cool
20100410 04:38:27< icelus> i would definitely re-use that
20100410 04:38:34< icelus> my top candidates for stripping from wesnoth
20100410 04:38:37< icelus> were terrain and WML
20100410 04:38:41< Sirp> http://code.google.com/p/elensefar/
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20100410 04:39:56< icelus> cool
20100410 04:39:59< icelus> what's the concept of the game?
20100410 04:40:18< icelus> Sirp, why make another strategy game is i guess what i was wondering
20100410 04:40:53< Sirp> icelus: well the game is a strategy game but with quite a different design and focus.
20100410 04:41:23< Sirp> icelus: and, sure, there are other options, I also considered an RPG using many of Wesnoth's assets, but didn't get far with it.
20100410 04:41:47< icelus> Sirp, well my concept for an RPG was to do "rogues" as minimalist old-style 1980s game
20100410 04:41:51< Sirp> my RPG concept was to have a wizard who could wander around the hex-world, and this wizard could summon monsters, for fights.
20100410 04:41:52< icelus> then if it worked and people were interested
20100410 04:42:01< Sirp> icelus: yes I saw. I think that's a good concept.
20100410 04:42:02< icelus> do "heroes" as a classic rpg wit ha party
20100410 04:42:14< icelus> oh thats cool
20100410 04:43:21< Sirp> icelus: I think that an RPG is a great concept, I don't think there's any "one true approach". Elensefar is a strategy game with a very different design/approach to Wesnoth. But I think an RPG is at least a good idea.
20100410 04:43:45< icelus> my issue with strategy games is just i personally lack the motivation to play them
20100410 04:43:54< icelus> which is the reason i never contributed to wesnoth
20100410 04:43:55< Sirp> icelus: though I'm not actively working on it right now due to my *other* project, Frogatto, a platformer. :)  Frogatto is a project which I'm actually absolutely committed to making succeed.
20100410 04:44:00< icelus> i don't have a vision for it or whatever
20100410 04:44:02< icelus> haha
20100410 04:44:12< Sirp> icelus: that's fair; if you don't enjoy a type of game then it's probably not a good idea to work on it.
20100410 04:44:16< icelus> wow busy
20100410 04:45:46< icelus> frogatto looks pretty cool
20100410 04:45:53< Espreon> Sirp: 'Twill probably fare well.
20100410 04:47:53< Sirp> icelus: yeah, Jetrel -- the lead artist from Wesnoth -- and I have been working hard on it.
20100410 04:48:19< Sirp> icelus: it actually has a heavily evolved version of the "formula" system from ST that is used to script most things in the game.
20100410 04:48:33< icelus> Sirp, supertux works the same way if you ever looked at the code
20100410 04:48:39< icelus> i contributed to it briefly 
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20100410 04:48:49< icelus> its all squirrel behind the scenes
20100410 04:48:58< icelus> although the interface is not very clean
20100410 04:49:14< Sirp> icelus: squirrel? I thought it was Scheme, no?
20100410 04:49:21< icelus> its squirrel
20100410 04:49:24< icelus> or it was when i worked on it
20100410 04:49:31 * Sirp doesn't know what squirrel is, though when he looked at Supertux he remembered it using some Lisp variant.
20100410 04:49:40< icelus> yeah it could be a lisp variant
20100410 04:49:47< icelus> i only looked at the c interface side
20100410 04:49:49< icelus> not the coding side
20100410 04:49:53< Sirp> ahh
20100410 04:50:24< icelus> Sirp, http://squirrel-lang.org/
20100410 04:50:47< Sirp> oh
20100410 04:50:53< Sirp> I was sure it was Lisp
20100410 04:51:00< Sirp> oh well. :)
20100410 04:51:17< Sirp> icelus: ummmm in any case I'm going to be incredibly obnoxiously arrogant and say that Frogatto is way beyond Supertux.
20100410 04:51:27< icelus> cool
20100410 04:51:32< icelus> i hope it is because honestly
20100410 04:51:36< icelus> platformers have stalled
20100410 04:51:40< Sirp> icelus: yeah.
20100410 04:51:41< icelus> and they were one of my favourite genres
20100410 04:51:57< icelus> supertux is held back by the way it's run really
20100410 04:52:04< Sirp> icelus: on the other hand, New Super Mario Brothers Wii is actually a very good commercial platformer.
20100410 04:52:05< icelus> although they do at least accept contributions
20100410 04:52:12< icelus> the way the blocks tilt in supertux is my code =)
20100410 04:52:29< icelus> i don't have access to anything like that unfortunately
20100410 04:52:39< Sirp> oh
20100410 04:52:44< Sirp> I haven't seen the blocks tilting
20100410 04:52:48< Sirp> I'll have to look at that
20100410 04:52:52< icelus> yeah because they haven't released
20100410 04:52:54< icelus> in like 2 years
20100410 04:52:56< Sirp> you mean they actually tilt and then slope?
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20100410 04:53:20< icelus> i wasn't seriously lauding it as an achievement =)
20100410 04:53:25< icelus> if you hit normal blocks
20100410 04:53:29< icelus> they tilt based on where you hit them
20100410 04:53:32< icelus> its not complicated
20100410 04:53:35< Sirp> icelus: doing a sane collision detection system for an advanced platformer is surprisingly *hard*
20100410 04:53:39< Sirp> ahhh
20100410 04:53:45< icelus> just a linear function of the collision position
20100410 04:54:04< icelus> it was actually way harder to do the other patch i submitted where the coins emerge from behind the blocks
20100410 04:54:11< icelus> then snap to the foreground afterwards
20100410 04:54:21< icelus> oh and the jumping code is mine
20100410 04:54:26< icelus> the way he doesn't stop dead i nthe now
20100410 04:54:42< icelus> i added a patch to apply high gravity until he's falling again
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20100410 04:54:49< icelus> but anyway basically =p
20100410 04:54:52< icelus> supertux is a dead end
20100410 04:55:06< icelus> i'm glad to see you guys turning out something that looks like its a big improvement
20100410 04:55:29< Sirp> icelus: probably the best thing about Frogatto is frankly, our editor is *awesome*
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20100410 04:55:53< icelus> cool i will definitely check it out
20100410 04:55:59< Espreon> Indeed it is.
20100410 04:56:11< Sirp> it has full auto tiling which is updated very fast, and the ability to e.g. place a platform and then set 'bounds' of where the platform moves.
20100410 04:56:36< Sirp> and the editor is integrated directly into the game (just press ctrl+e from within the game and it drops into the editor)
20100410 04:56:43< icelus> that's cool
20100410 04:56:51< icelus> what's the other game that did that
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20100410 04:56:54< icelus> freedroid maybe
20100410 04:57:16< icelus> pretty cool tho
20100410 04:57:26< icelus> what are you working on in terms of features?
20100410 04:57:37< icelus> i mean it looks almost done?
20100410 04:58:27< Sirp> icelus: we are preparing for an 'initial' release soon. Right now the main thing we're working on is content -- we want to have four full distinct graphical environments
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20100410 04:58:46< Sirp> the engine is theoretically 'done' though still adding little features here and there.
20100410 04:58:55< icelus> ambitious for a 0.1 release
20100410 04:59:09< icelus> shock and awe i guess =)
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20100410 04:59:20< Sirp> well it's more like a 1.0 release, kind of.
20100410 04:59:37< icelus> right
20100410 05:01:01< Sirp> its a little less "Free" than Wesnoth in a few ways. The art isn't going to be GPLed, though the code is. And we are planning on selling it on the iPhone, but making it free everywhere else.
20100410 05:01:58< icelus> well the content is the valuable bit of a platformer i guess
20100410 05:02:03< icelus> not to talk down the engine
20100410 05:02:15< icelus> but it's a bigger jump maybe to come up with original artwork and content
20100410 05:02:24< Sirp> well, yes.
20100410 05:02:41< Sirp> actually one thing I would like to do is add randomly generated levels.
20100410 05:03:20< icelus> that would be quite challenging to do well
20100410 05:07:33< Sirp> yeah. Actually the other thing the editor has which is kinda nice is the ability to write scripts in formulas.
20100410 05:07:57< Sirp> I have a script which will generate a height map.
20100410 05:08:05< Sirp> that is as far as I've gotten on the level generation thing so far. :)
20100410 05:08:37< icelus> haha =)
20100410 05:08:43< icelus> yeah i think it would be really hard myself
20100410 05:08:54< icelus> it'll be interesting to see how it turns out
20100410 05:09:22< Sirp> I think this game does it: http://www.spelunkyworld.com/
20100410 05:11:12< icelus> hm
20100410 05:11:18< icelus> i mean there are two challenges right
20100410 05:11:30< icelus> there's the graphical challenge which they seem to talk about on that first page
20100410 05:11:40< icelus> but the hard part is how do you make a level that's _interesting_
20100410 05:11:51< icelus> it's one thing to say ok these jump's are possible
20100410 05:11:59< icelus> uh jumps
20100410 05:12:02< icelus> wow horrible apostrophe
20100410 05:12:16< icelus> but it's another thing for the level to make sense in some way
20100410 05:12:27< icelus> i see that as being the big challenge
20100410 05:12:36< icelus> and obviously theres a ceiling to your expectations
20100410 05:12:38< icelus> for random generation
20100410 05:12:51< icelus> because level design is a highly skilled and creative pursuit
20100410 05:12:53< icelus> at its best
20100410 05:13:00< icelus> but still, i imagine randomly generated maps
20100410 05:13:15< icelus> could be hard to make so that they would be worth playing
20100410 05:13:35< Sirp> icelus: btw you are welcome to help out on Frogatto, if you're interested. :)
20100410 05:13:43< Sirp> icelus: yeah it is hard I think.
20100410 05:14:01< icelus> Sirp, cool i'll bear that in mind :)
20100410 05:14:05< Sirp> icelus: also another possibility is to make a random generator that generates levels as a starting point.
20100410 05:14:14< icelus> oh for the map editor you mean?
20100410 05:14:25< icelus> so you hammer generate a few times then fine tune a good one?
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20100410 05:14:29< Sirp> icelus: or additionally the "Nethack style" of making a level with a certain general layout designed by a human but with certain variations that are made with a computer.
20100410 05:14:39< Sirp> icelus: yes, exactly.
20100410 05:14:56< icelus> Sirp, those roguelike map generation algorithms are often horribly complex though
20100410 05:15:06< Sirp> icelus: but yeah making a good level is quite hard.
20100410 05:15:07< icelus> and strangely because of hte people who enjoy roguelikes
20100410 05:15:13< Sirp> *surprisingly* hard.
20100410 05:15:22< icelus> roguelike generation is a studied problem
20100410 05:15:27< Sirp> the thing every 14 year old male thinks they are excellent at, until you put them in front of a level editor.
20100410 05:15:36< icelus> yeah i agree
20100410 05:15:49< icelus> i tried to make levels for xpilot years ago
20100410 05:16:02< icelus> and i was terrible at it
20100410 05:16:05< icelus> i didn't make a single good map
20100410 05:16:19< icelus> after 10 years of play my accomplishment in that field amounts to tweaking a dozen parameters
20100410 05:16:21< icelus> of my favourite map
20100410 05:20:29< Espreon> Ivanovic: Is it acceptable to add new images in stable versions (I see to backport a couple of attack icons)? I'm guessing that the answer is "No"...
20100410 05:20:37< Espreon> ... but... yeah...
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20100410 07:38:55< CIA-32> mordante * r42066 /trunk/data/gui/default/macros/_initial.cfg: 
20100410 07:38:56< CIA-32> Fixed a stacked widget marco.
20100410 07:38:56< CIA-32> Wasn't converted during the stacked widget behaviour change.
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20100410 07:50:58-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: GSoC: Thanks to all GSoC candidates for submitting proposals to Google. Accepted student applications announced on April 26. | 85 bugs, 264 feature requests, 18 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
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20100410 09:05:13< Upthorn> So, it turns out, if I had been thinkin a little more coherently last night, the "not so easy coding" project I thought I would try would have been easily completed
20100410 09:05:38< Upthorn> ... just by commenting out a single block of code.
20100410 09:06:28< Upthorn> If I understood the project correctly, that is.
20100410 09:07:46< Crab_> icelus: the project which Soliton has removed from NotSoEasyCoding ?
20100410 09:07:51< Crab_> oops,
20100410 09:07:54< Crab_> Upthorn: ^
20100410 09:08:05< Upthorn> Crab_: yes.
20100410 09:08:06< Crab_> icelus; thanks for the patch, I'll take a look at it
20100410 09:08:55< Crab_> Upthorn: what about the 'however, with the maximum healing any unit can receive over the entire round being the maximum healing received from any one source,' part ?
20100410 09:09:42< Upthorn> I guess I did not understand that part properly.
20100410 09:10:46< Crab_> well, 'if we were healed by 8 hp or cured from poison earlier that round, don't heal now; if we were healed by 4 hp and we might get healed by+8 hp, heal by +4 hp only; ...'
20100410 09:11:58< Crab_> (but note that the patch, if done, might not be accepted)
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20100410 09:12:33< Upthorn> That doesn't seem too difficult. I would just have to add a variable to the unit class to store the amount of healing done, and clear it after healing is applied if it is the unit's side's turn.
20100410 09:13:35< Upthorn> well, and have each healer check against it and only apply the difference between the recieved amount and the healer's heal amount.
20100410 09:13:57< boucman> morning all
20100410 09:14:03< Crab_> hi, boucman
20100410 09:14:17< Dwight> why can you only heal 8 per turn
20100410 09:14:21< Dwight> it seems kind of underpowered and lame
20100410 09:14:33< Dwight> when some beast can conceivably smash you for 50 in a turn
20100410 09:15:21< Crab_> Upthorn: (slightly more difficult, since there can be 'cure poison' instead of healing)
20100410 09:15:23< Upthorn> It isn't important to me that the patch be accepted, as long as it would still be acceptable as a sample of my coding.
20100410 09:15:51< Upthorn> well just set healed_amount to 8 when poison is cured
20100410 09:16:07< Crab_> yes, good enough.
20100410 09:16:48< boucman> Dwight: because if healing was balanced with damage, unit management would be too easy/less fun
20100410 09:19:48< Dwight> it doesnt have to be balanced, just not so laughably unbalanced. but whatever. i just hate it in a campaign because by the 5th or so scenario invariably one of your main characters that you like and is level 3 atleast, is going to get slaughtered. and no matter how many times you replay the map or load a save, youre not going to get through without losing any low levels and at least 1 high level 
20100410 09:21:10< boucman> you do know that some factions have no balance at all and do perfectly well...
20100410 09:21:24< boucman> the trick is to avoid having damaged units on the frontline, 
20100410 09:21:42< boucman> whenever a unit is damaged, don't wait. move him back to a healer/village right away
20100410 09:21:49< Dwight> you cant 'move him back
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20100410 09:22:00< boucman> why ?
20100410 09:22:05< Dwight> once he attacks, he's stuck there until the next turn.  the other side then gets a go
20100410 09:22:18< boucman> well, then don't attack with it, use other units
20100410 09:22:29< Dwight> how would other units be any different
20100410 09:22:40< Dwight> they all cant move once theyve made their attack
20100410 09:22:49< Dwight> theyll all be stuck there until the next turn
20100410 09:23:14< boucman> Dwight: let's discuss that on #wesnoth, #wesnoth-dev is for development talks
20100410 09:25:04< boucman> http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=420715#p420715 <== what's the protocol for comitting music (wrt id3 tags and stuff like that)
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20100410 09:49:11< aranair> boucman: hey boucman, any time for some quick questions?
20100410 09:49:23< boucman> sure thing
20100410 09:50:01< aranair> is map location a big thing to the gameplay?
20100410 09:50:17< boucman> what do you mean ?
20100410 09:50:42< aranair> like if side1's view is shared with side2, will side2 have a huge advantage?
20100410 09:51:33< boucman> supposing side1 and side2 are ennemies, yes
20100410 09:51:49< Crab_> aranair: during the starting rounds: yes, huge.  during the subsequent rounds: yes, but less huge.
20100410 09:51:53< aranair> sigh heh.
20100410 09:51:58< aranair> ah
20100410 09:52:03< aranair> so towards the end, its less so?
20100410 09:52:04< boucman> in particular, side2 will be able to choose exactly what to recruit to counter side1
20100410 09:52:27< Crab_> aranair: yes
20100410 09:52:35< boucman> aranair: you recruit a bunch of units at the start, but less as the gme goes
20100410 09:52:39< aranair> i am having a hard time deciding how much advantage the leader should have in my system heh.
20100410 09:53:47< aranair> in my original idea, every side gets to share the maps of the sides with a lower status than itself, and so the leader would be able to view every other side cooperating with it at the start mm.
20100410 09:54:07< aranair> i guess its too powerful :/
20100410 09:54:28< boucman> aranair: in your question, side1 and 2 were "overall ennemies" wern't they ?
20100410 09:55:03< aranair> well no not really, suppose there is alliance1, with side1,2,3  and alliance2 with side 4,5,6
20100410 09:55:26< Crab_> aranair: also note that any one who wishes to cheat in MP is able to easily view 'what the enemy has recruited'.
20100410 09:55:35< boucman> oh, and within alliance1, 1 sees 2 and 2 doesn't see 1 ?
20100410 09:55:43< aranair> yes boucman ;P
20100410 09:55:52< aranair> AND
20100410 09:55:54< aranair> on top of that
20100410 09:56:09< aranair> when alliance2 has been vanquished. i can't allow alliance1 to ALL share victory
20100410 09:56:42< aranair> instead it is based on whether they are currently in sworn status, making side3 (who is perhaps in friend/trusted status) have a disadvantage right off
20100410 09:57:26< boucman> well, as long as 1 and 2 or "basically friend" 1 would have an advantage, in particular 1 would be able to comment/direct 2
20100410 09:57:28< aranair> would it be ok if i made all from the same alliance share victory when there is no other alliance left?
20100410 09:57:50< boucman> whenever the alliance breaks, 1 would have an advantage, but not as big as if they were ennemies from the start
20100410 09:58:08< boucman> aranair: that's what happens right now, so yes
20100410 09:58:08< aranair> yes, that is what i meant, if it breaks, is that advantage too big?
20100410 09:58:15< aranair> ahhh !
20100410 09:58:20< aranair> that solves many things ;P
20100410 09:58:31< aranair> Crab_: what do you mean? mm
20100410 09:58:43< aranair> Crab_: do you mean someone with 2 computers, cheating and doing that?
20100410 09:59:25< Crab_> aranair: no, just enable logging (no need to recompile). the game will happily tell you what was recruited and where.
20100410 09:59:33< boucman> aranair: not really relevant for you, but everything that is "under the fog" is sent to all machines, so if you recompile your own wesnoth, you can build yourself a clent that sees through fog
20100410 09:59:46< aranair> Crab: what on earth ~_~
20100410 09:59:54< Crab_> boucman: no need to recompile if you just want to see what enemy recruits
20100410 10:00:03< boucman> i didn't know that
20100410 10:00:38< aranair> oh god heh.
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20100410 10:01:51< aranair> boucman: in that previous scenario, not sure if your reply was to that question: so when the alliance breaks, the advantage is ..too big?
20100410 10:02:54< boucman> aranair: hard to tell, it depends a lot on the situation... is side 2 aware that the aliance is going to break ? how long have they been fighting etc....
20100410 10:03:12< boucman> I don't think it's ridiculously unbalancing like our original understanding was
20100410 10:03:26< boucman> however the exact balance is something very hard to assess
20100410 10:03:30< aranair> yeah :/
20100410 10:03:59< aranair> then again, if i am able to let everyone share victory, then.. this problem might not be so big.
20100410 10:04:13< boucman> so I say : good enough for a proposal but you probably will have to discuss it in depth with mp devs if the proposal is accepted
20100410 10:04:43< Crab_> boucman: in particular, DBG_NG << "Adding unit " << p->underlying_id() << " - " << p->id() << " to location: (" << loc.x + 1 << "," << loc.y + 1 << ")\n"; in src/unit_map.cpp
20100410 10:04:55< aranair> yup definitely :/ thanks, time to go back to the drawing board forabit 
20100410 10:05:45< Crab_> boucman: btw, we can sneak up some code to add the 'enabled log domains' to replay.
20100410 10:05:53< boucman> Crab_: is patch 1608 for you ?
20100410 10:06:13< boucman> Crab_: not sure what you mean
20100410 10:06:19< Crab_> boucman: no, it's from easy coding
20100410 10:06:36< boucman> it could be from easy coding and for you :P
20100410 10:07:08< Crab_> boucman: this particular cheat (using logs to view enemy recruits) depends on setting a command line option to enable certain logs
20100410 10:07:43< Crab_> boucman: so, we add 'the list of enabled log domains' to replay, it'll be possible to check what log domains were enabled for a particular player
20100410 10:07:51< boucman> Crab_: i'd rather allow/forbid some log-domains depending on debug mode
20100410 10:07:58< Crab_> boucman: thus, making such cheat 'detectable'
20100410 10:08:10< boucman> thus forbiding them in MP
20100410 10:08:26< Crab_> boucman: imo, it's better to detect than to forbid
20100410 10:09:14< boucman> hmm, i'm not sure I agree on the principle, but in that particular case it makes sense to have some log domains limited to debug, since logging is mainly for debugging anyway
20100410 10:09:47< boucman> and currently there is nothing that rereads replays and look for cheats, so people won't usually look for that
20100410 10:10:35< Crab_> boucman: yes, that's why I said 'we can silently add that in, and then batch check all replays to see the results (hopefully, not much will be found)'
20100410 10:12:06< Crab_> (alt: make a game say a message to all players about enabled log domains, similar to the message about 'same ip')
20100410 10:14:11< boucman> yes, I think that would be better
20100410 10:14:31< aranair> is the persistent gameworld data definitely going to be implemented in future? (no matter when)
20100410 10:14:35< boucman> (actually having something like that when debug is enabled rather than forbidding debug in MP might be nice at some point)
20100410 10:14:40< Crab_> aranair: yes
20100410 10:14:45< aranair> cool thanks
20100410 10:15:09< ancestral> And simultaneous turns too
20100410 10:15:16 * ancestral is still hopeful
20100410 10:15:34< boucman> ancestral: I wouldn't hold my breath
20100410 10:15:36< ancestral> Actually, whoever does the allied teams thing
20100410 10:15:49< ancestral> boucman: I know :(
20100410 10:16:35< Crab_> aranair: at least the SP part of 'persistent gameworld data' can be done during a single weekend.
20100410 10:17:09< Crab_> aranair: it's MP that is tricky, but thanks to icelus, it might become simpler, too.
20100410 10:17:20< aranair> yeah.
20100410 10:17:50< Crab_> aranair: and the gamemaster part is dependent on boost::asio project - it's still possible without it but with certain (very dirty) hacks.
20100410 10:17:58< boucman> silene: can i assign patch 1610 to you ?
20100410 10:18:01< aranair> Crab_:my system might have something to give for persistent world data too, if it goes well heh
20100410 10:18:17< silene> boucman: you can
20100410 10:18:29< boucman> done, thx
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20100410 10:19:07< silene> Crab_, boucman: don't make an anticheat measure depends on the trust in a client, that's just ridiculous
20100410 10:19:07< boucman> wesbot: seen icelus
20100410 10:19:07< wesbot> boucman: The person with the nick icelus last spoke 5h 2m ago.  4h 27m ago was here and on the channel #wesnoth with the message: Quit: Leaving
20100410 10:19:12< Crab_> aranair: how it will be ?
20100410 10:19:43< boucman> silene: we try to avoid it as much as possible but in some case it's very hard to avoid
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20100410 10:19:43< Crab_> silene: yes, I know. but current barrier-of-entry to cheating is ridiculously low.
20100410 10:20:17< boucman> here we are talking of FoW and trying to push the limit from "you need to enable a certain logging to cheat" to "you need to recompile the client to cheat"
20100410 10:20:19< aranair> mm i haven't really read about icelus's persistent gameworld data yet but if certain resources carry forward it might be beneficial to have an hierarchy when handling victories
20100410 10:20:37< aranair> nagbot: icelus ?
20100410 10:20:48< aranair> how do you use that ;P
20100410 10:21:01< boucman> I thought icelus wasn't a GSoC student... just a new coder hanging around
20100410 10:21:10< aranair> Oh.
20100410 10:21:33< boucman> tha's why I was a bit suprised that he has a persistent data proposal
20100410 10:21:55< aranair> anywhere i can find a copy of his proposal? heh
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20100410 10:22:38< aranair> What are the key values that will be kept persistent? 
20100410 10:22:47< Crab_> aranair: wml variables :)
20100410 10:22:53< Crab_> boucman: no, his work (patch 1610) is related to MP persistency
20100410 10:23:06< aranair> all the variables? heh
20100410 10:23:06< Crab_> boucman: since get_global_variable will have the same sync problems.
20100410 10:23:25< boucman> oh, that patch...
20100410 10:23:25< Crab_> aranair: no, only via a dedicated tag [set_global_variable]
20100410 10:23:33< aranair> ah nods.
20100410 10:24:10< Crab_> boucman: yes, that patch. I've showed icelus one of my bugs, when he asked me about most difficult bugs, and he started to work on it :)
20100410 10:24:24< boucman> daamit
20100410 10:24:46< boucman> implementing SoC projects before SoC is no fun :P
20100410 10:24:50< aranair> well, can't say i have something solid to add but at least it could add more variety to the things to be added to be persistent ;P
20100410 10:24:54< aranair> haha.
20100410 10:25:10< Crab_> aranair: what do you want persistent ?
20100410 10:26:01< aranair> depending on the final decision on victory handling it could add more fields, i don't know if gold is a candidate for being persistent but that could be handled through the alliance system
20100410 10:26:24< Crab_> aranair: well, you can save gold to a wml variable :)
20100410 10:26:34< Crab_> aranair: or, you can save a side to wml variable :)
20100410 10:26:40< aranair> just thought it might have more cheating happening ;P
20100410 10:26:45< Upthorn> aranair: what is kept persistent will be up to the wml author.
20100410 10:27:57< aranair> yeah well you can, but a certain portion could be kept persistent, and that portion has to be decided somewhere (not the author,... right?;P)
20100410 10:28:24< Crab_> aranair: by author :)
20100410 10:28:47< boucman> bug 15713 is an EasyCoding ready for grab if anybody is interested...
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20100410 10:28:59< aranair> dang ok ;P
20100410 10:29:15< Crab_> aranair: if the author will want to ask the player via a dialog, that's ok :)
20100410 10:29:55< Crab_> bye 
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20100410 10:29:58< aranair> Crab_: got it, i was more for the automatic handling of it. guess not haha..
20100410 10:30:07< aranair> ~_~
20100410 10:30:16< aranair> that was absolutely swift lol
20100410 10:34:48< CIA-32> boucman * r42067 /trunk/ (changelog src/menu_events.cpp): add number of unowned village to status table, patch #1586 by icelus
20100410 10:35:19< zookeeper> boucman, currently you don't need to do anything else than open another client to FoW-cheat
20100410 10:35:45< boucman> yeah
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20100410 10:37:27< zookeeper> and you can't really do anything about that without keeping the what's-under-the-fog info on the server, and that'd make client-made savefiles useless (like if the server crashes mid-game, you couldn't get a useable save to resume)
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20100410 10:38:15< boucman> and observers in fog games would be useless (or have to choose a side to observe)
20100410 10:38:26< zookeeper> that too
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20100410 10:40:58< Ivanovic> moin
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20100410 10:42:52< silene> boucman: just useless (otherwise, one would choose to observe the opponent side)
20100410 10:43:10< boucman> yeah, true...
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20100410 10:58:45< CIA-32> ivanovic * r42068 /trunk/po/ (wesnoth/sk.po wesnoth-nr/sk.po): updated Slovak translation
20100410 10:58:47< CIA-32> ivanovic * r42069 /branches/1.8/ (players_changelog po/wesnoth/sk.po po/wesnoth-nr/sk.po): updated Slovak translation
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20100410 11:02:35< Ivanovic> fendrin, crab_: https://gna.org/bugs/index.php?15829
20100410 11:06:38< CIA-32> ivanovic * r42070 /branches/1.8/ (4 files in 3 dirs): updated British English translation, fixed bug #15815
20100410 11:06:55< CIA-32> ivanovic * r42071 /trunk/ (4 files in 3 dirs): updated British English translation, fixed bug #15815
20100410 11:07:21< Ivanovic> Chusslove: could you please run your magic scripts for detection of those ^ inside of translated strings on all of mainline?
20100410 11:07:29< Ivanovic> that is: especially on en_GB
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20100410 12:11:42< Upthorn> boucman: what about changing the server not to allow observer clients from the same IP as any of the player clients?
20100410 12:12:49< Soliton> the server publicly announces new clients with the same IP as current players.
20100410 12:15:31< Upthorn> Soliton: currently?
20100410 12:16:39< Soliton> yes.
20100410 12:16:52< Upthorn> Oh I think I misunderstood the method of FoW cheating being described.
20100410 12:17:11< Ivanovic> Chusslove: do you check for '^' inside of strings, too?
20100410 12:17:25< Upthorn> Which I now imagine just involves loading MP saves into an offline client?
20100410 12:18:30< Chusslove> Ivanovic: Yep.
20100410 12:19:09< Soliton> Upthorn: yes, that is one of the simplest ways we can't easily prevent.
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20100410 12:22:32< boucman> Upthorn: solving FoW cheating is a very tricky problem, don't pass too much time thinking about it
20100410 12:22:56< aranair> boucman: added a huge portion of description into the wiki, but im not too sure which part might be still confusing help me review it in your free time?:0 thanks!
20100410 12:23:09< boucman> ok
20100410 12:23:14< boucman> nagbot: aranair ?
20100410 12:23:15< nagbot> aranair : http://wiki.wesnoth.org//SummerofCode_Aranair : http://socghop.appspot.com/gsoc/student_proposal/review/google/gsoc2010/aranair/t127067138706
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20100410 12:25:35< aranair> somehow i feel that it might still be too technical at the start~_~
20100410 12:25:46< aranair> but i can't ...describe the system without going into it first heh ;P
20100410 12:29:37< boucman> aranair: you could write a small exemple at the start, four players Alice,Bob,Charlie,Daniel
20100410 12:29:44< boucman> alliance, broken alliances etc...
20100410 12:29:49< boucman> and then the detailed material
20100410 12:30:24< aranair> ah good idea. nods
20100410 12:30:47< CIA-32> ivanovic * r42072 /trunk/po/ (5 files in 5 dirs): updated German translation after po sanity report by Chusslove
20100410 12:30:48< CIA-32> ivanovic * r42073 /branches/1.8/po/ (5 files in 5 dirs): updated German translation after po sanity report by Chusslove
20100410 12:31:16< CIA-32> ivanovic * r42074 /branches/1.8/data/campaigns/ (2 files in 2 dirs): remove some leading spaces from strings where they make no sense (will lead to fuzzy strings)
20100410 12:31:37< boucman> aranair: it seems to me that "rebel" should be split in two : the "rebel after failing trial" and "rebel after being trusted in"
20100410 12:32:02< Upthorn> boucman: my sense is that if you make it difficult to load MP saves that aren't completed replays, that is about as much as could be reasonably expected to deter that sort of cheating.
20100410 12:32:06< aranair> boucman: mm but both rebels would not be able to regain entry
20100410 12:32:32< Upthorn> err, make it dificult to load MP saves offline if they aren't completed replays
20100410 12:32:36< boucman> aranair: well, that's the feeling I have from your proposal, i'm still reading
20100410 12:32:54< CIA-32> ivanovic * r42075 /trunk/data/campaigns/ (2 files in 2 dirs): 
20100410 12:32:54< CIA-32> remove some leading spaces from strings where they make no sense (will lead to fuzzy strings)
20100410 12:32:54< CIA-32> merged r42074 from branches/1.8
20100410 12:32:57< CIA-32> ai0867 * r42076 /branches/fendrin_editor/src/gui/dialogs/ (icon_message.cpp icon_message.hpp): Convert icon_message to use the new REGISTER_WINDOW macro
20100410 12:33:00< boucman> Upthorn: what do you mean by completed
20100410 12:33:12< aranair> boucman: *nods* although it is true that they differ in terms of penalties
20100410 12:33:16< Upthorn> boucman: the game ended.
20100410 12:33:25< CIA-32> ai0867 * r42077 /branches/fendrin_editor/src/game_display.cpp: Remove unit_map argument from unit constructor calls
20100410 12:34:44< Upthorn> boucman: or more specifically, the "save replay on SP/MP victory or MP defeat" option was triggered.
20100410 12:37:16< boucman> aranair: ok, I understand your system (some of it) i'm not very clear about how status changes (especially upward) is it leader that decides ?
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20100410 12:37:39< CIA-32> ivanovic * r42078 /branches/1.8/ (287 files in 32 dirs): 
20100410 12:37:39< CIA-32> pot-update (two changed strings (removal of leading spaces))
20100410 12:37:39< CIA-32> regenerated doc files
20100410 12:38:19< boucman> I also think you REALLY needs to discuss it with MP devs, the problems you point out in the original ideas are real issues, but i'm not convinced your way of doing it is better, you need to convince me and (even more) convince the MP devs
20100410 12:39:50< aranair> boucman: nods i'll get to discussing it today when i see them
20100410 12:40:02< CIA-32> ivanovic * r42079 /trunk/po/ (wesnoth-low/de.po wesnoth-sof/de.po wesnoth-sotbe/de.po): updated German translation
20100410 12:40:09< CIA-32> ivanovic * r42080 /branches/1.8/po/ (wesnoth-low/de.po wesnoth-sotbe/de.po): updated German translation
20100410 12:40:39< Ivanovic> yes, i just wanted to increase my commit count...
20100410 12:40:42< aranair> boucman: typically for the upwards, it is proposed by anyside
20100410 12:40:52< Ivanovic> Chusslove: you probably should rerun your script, the part about leading spaces
20100410 12:41:20< silene> Upthorn: it is possible to save mp games so that they can be reloaded later; do you also want to forbid that?
20100410 12:41:34< aranair> boucman: the leader could propose it, and the side could reject it. the other side could propose it, leader could reject as well, but has no reason to, since it is rewarded properly
20100410 12:41:49< Upthorn> silene: I want to forbid saving an MP game and reloading it in SP.
20100410 12:41:56< aranair> boucman: mm i should get to adding that portion thanks again :/
20100410 12:42:10< silene> Upthorn: so what? reload it in local mp
20100410 12:42:13< boucman> aranair: you should also explain how the contribution is shared (i.e the money boos from allied villages)
20100410 12:42:39< silene> Upthorn: unless you also want to remove local mp from the game
20100410 12:43:02< Upthorn> no, I would rephrase
20100410 12:43:16< aranair> boucman: ah it is explained later on mm. you mean technically or?
20100410 12:43:31< boucman> where ?
20100410 12:43:33< silene> Upthorn: by the way, savegame are just text files; i don't need to load one in the game to know what the other players recruited
20100410 12:43:56< Upthorn> I would forbid saving a game during remote MP and loading it in local MP or SP.
20100410 12:44:19< aranair> boucman: Contributions From villages portion hehe, under the heading evaluation of new parameters
20100410 12:44:21< Upthorn> And I know that they are just text files, but things that happen totally outside the software are beyond developer control
20100410 12:44:46< aranair> oh.
20100410 12:44:59< Upthorn> anyway, I am not actually suggesting that you must do this
20100410 12:45:17< Upthorn> I am saying that it is the absolute maximum reasonable expectation of cheat deterence.
20100410 12:45:40< Upthorn> Measures that secure beyond that are not worth doing.
20100410 12:46:16< aranair> boucman: think i misunderstood you, do you mean like..sharing a pool of money?
20100410 12:46:42< boucman> yes, I thought I had read something about that
20100410 12:47:28< boucman> can a side be in multiple teams ?
20100410 12:48:18< aranair> boucman: yes it is possible, but not above a certain status
20100410 12:48:28< aranair> currently it is set to be trusted, could be changed of course
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20100410 13:07:55< CIA-32> ai0867 * r42081 /branches/fendrin_editor/src/pathfind/teleport.cpp: Replace usage of get_children()
20100410 13:16:58< CIA-32> noyga * r42082 /branches/1.8/po/ (wesnoth-low/fr.po wesnoth-multiplayer/fr.po): Little french translation fixes
20100410 13:20:03< CIA-32> ai0867 * r42083 /branches/fendrin_editor/src/unit_map.cpp: Update for changes to unit_map's iterator
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20100410 13:35:14< CIA-32> ai0867 * r42084 /branches/fendrin_editor/src/gui/dialogs/gamestate_inspector.cpp: Make gamestate_inspector compile (not sure if the result is correct though)
20100410 13:50:58-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: GSoC: Thanks to all GSoC candidates for submitting proposals to Google. Accepted student applications announced on April 26. | 86 bugs, 264 feature requests, 17 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
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20100410 14:17:42< timotei> hello everyone
20100410 14:18:26< fendrin> hi timotei
20100410 14:18:59< timotei> fendrin, do you have time to look over my proposal?
20100410 14:21:19< CIA-32> ai0867 * r42085 /branches/fendrin_editor/src/gui/dialogs/ (icon_message.cpp icon_message.hpp): Further port icon_message.cpp to gui2's newer framework
20100410 14:21:22< CIA-32> ai0867 * r42086 /branches/fendrin_editor/src/editor/action.cpp: More adaptation to unit_map changes
20100410 14:21:27< CIA-32> ai0867 * r42087 /branches/fendrin_editor/src/editor/ (editor_map.cpp map_context.cpp): Further adapatations to unit_map and unit changes
20100410 14:21:30< CIA-32> ai0867 * r42088 /branches/fendrin_editor/src/editor/mouse_action.cpp: Make editor/mouse_action.cpp compile. Placing units on the right map may be broken due to unit::unit()'s refactoring
20100410 14:22:56< fendrin> timotei: Yes, I will look over all proposals today.
20100410 14:23:03< timotei> ok, thank you
20100410 14:24:02< timotei> the proposal needs to be finished, but I'll need to get more familiar with the codebase first
20100410 14:26:58< CIA-32> noyga * r42089 /branches/1.8/po/ (wesnoth/fr.po wesnoth-tutorial/fr.po): French translation little fixes, part 2/2
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20100410 14:31:14< AI0867> fendrin: your branch compiles again, but an exception is thrown on launch
20100410 14:31:49< fendrin> AI0867: I will have a look.
20100410 14:33:43< CIA-32> noyga * r42090 /trunk/po/wesnoth-tutorial/fr.po: Merge french translation r42082 & r42089
20100410 14:34:09< CIA-32> noyga * r42091 /trunk/po/ (wesnoth/fr.po wesnoth-low/fr.po wesnoth-multiplayer/fr.po): Merge french translation r42082 & r42089
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20100410 14:51:16 * AI0867 kicks CIA-32 
20100410 14:51:16< CIA-32> ow
20100410 14:59:16< fendrin> AI0867: That exception is really useless.
20100410 15:03:39< AI0867> I'm building a debug build atm
20100410 15:04:06< AI0867> the stacktrace is pretty useless, but a debug build should tell me which widget is being built
20100410 15:04:07< fendrin> AI0867: The new recruit/recall dialogs look cool but miss some features. The used gui2 selectionboxes can't sort or filter.  
20100410 15:04:21< AI0867> on second thought, a perhaps it's logged on some level
20100410 15:04:46-!- Noyga [~noyga@wesnoth/developer/noyga] has quit [Quit: Quitte]
20100410 15:04:54< fendrin> AI0867: If you can, please make the output more verbose. I think it should easily be able to tell which wml cfg is missing.
20100410 15:06:50< AI0867>   20100410 15:06:24 debug gui/parse: Window builder: grid has 1 rows and 1 columns.
20100410 15:06:53< AI0867> 20100410 15:06:24 } END: Window builder: parsing a grid (took 5ms)
20100410 15:06:56< AI0867> 20100410 15:06:24 debug gui/parse: Window builder: parsing resolution 0,0
20100410 15:07:41< fendrin> hmmmm
20100410 15:08:00< AI0867> which starts with
20100410 15:08:00< AI0867> 20100410 15:06:24 debug gui/parse: Window builder: parsing resolution 0,0
20100410 15:08:00< AI0867> 20100410 15:06:24 debug gui/parse: Window builder: reading data for window wml_message_left.
20100410 15:08:03< AI0867> 20100410 15:06:24 { BEGIN: Window builder: parsing a grid 20100410 15:06:24 debug gui/parse: Window builder: found control with id '' and definition 'wml_message'.
20100410 15:08:11< AI0867> I can pastebin the lot if you need more
20100410 15:09:53< AI0867> http://wesnoth.pastebin.com/x7GwFhEW
20100410 15:10:26< AI0867> that's the last 80 lines or so
20100410 15:15:07< CIA-32> ai0867 * r42092 /branches/fendrin_editor/ (22 files in 15 dirs): Merge trunk up to r42091
20100410 15:15:27< fendrin> AI0867: The output isn't useful in any meaning. It tells me not which window definition wasn't found.
20100410 15:15:37< AI0867> =/
20100410 15:15:44< AI0867> well, I'll wait for the debug build then
20100410 15:16:55< Ivanovic> Darkas: just to be 100% sure: will you be 18 on april 26?
20100410 15:17:05< Ivanovic> Darkas: that is the only date that counts
20100410 15:17:18-!- Achilles [~rigvedpha@116.72.163.243] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100410 15:17:35< Achilles> hi
20100410 15:18:29< Achilles> http://wiki.wesnoth.org/CompilingWesnoth - can i use these instructions to install under cygwin?
20100410 15:18:48< Ivanovic> Achilles: there are explicit instructions for windows IIRC
20100410 15:19:06< Ivanovic> no idea if the "normal" compiling instructions will work out as expected on windows
20100410 15:19:30< Achilles> http://wiki.wesnoth.org/CompilingWesnothOnWindows - these ones?
20100410 15:19:46< Ivanovic> the link name sounds about right
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20100410 15:20:27< Achilles> these say to use 2nd post from this link - http://forum.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=18877
20100410 15:20:33< Achilles> this post is from Mist
20100410 15:20:45< fakedrake> hello all
20100410 15:21:02< Ivanovic> yeah, once upon the time mist created the windows binaries
20100410 15:21:10< Ivanovic> at least i *think* he created some
20100410 15:22:31< Achilles> i'll try the default instructions under cygwin...if it doesn't work then i'll use the windows instructions
20100410 15:22:37< Achilles> thanx for ur help
20100410 15:23:05< timotei> Achilles, what IDE you want to use?
20100410 15:23:17< timotei> or just text editor + command line compiling?
20100410 15:23:28< Achilles> i hav netbeans under windows
20100410 15:23:36< fakedrake> can someone help me with the changelog file? I have a comment in one of my patches that sais i should make a changelog entry about it
20100410 15:23:38< Achilles> gcc under cygwin
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20100410 15:24:37< timotei> fakedrake, yes. There is player_changelog and changelog
20100410 15:24:40< timotei> in wesnoth's dir
20100410 15:24:43< Ivanovic> fakedrake: just open the file named 'changelog' in an editor
20100410 15:24:45< timotei> update them as deserved
20100410 15:24:56< Ivanovic> that is: if the change is player visible also edit players_changelog
20100410 15:25:05< timotei> Achilles, with scons, the building it's really easy and fast
20100410 15:25:08< fakedrake> ok
20100410 15:25:14< fakedrake> thank you both
20100410 15:25:15< Ivanovic> regarding conventions: just check what the rest does use and work accordingly
20100410 15:25:25< fakedrake> ok
20100410 15:25:31< Achilles> yes, i can use scons under cygwin
20100410 15:25:39< timotei> I've tried both scons and visual studio, but scons is easier, faster and less error-prone
20100410 15:25:59< Achilles> i'll try it
20100410 15:26:02< Ivanovic> using linux is by far the easiest way...
20100410 15:26:03< Achilles> thanx again
20100410 15:26:20< Ivanovic> ;)
20100410 15:26:25< timotei> yes Ivanovic 
20100410 15:26:33< Achilles> but then i have to install linux 1st...or atleast hav a live cd...i have none
20100410 15:26:38< timotei> but if you need/want to use windows is not so easy :(
20100410 15:26:42< fakedrake> what is an about.cfg entry?
20100410 15:27:05< Ivanovic> fakedrake: data/core/about.cfg does make up the credits
20100410 15:27:15 * boucman believe it's either to install linux+compile wensoth than to compile wesnoth on windows
20100410 15:27:25< Ivanovic> boucman: at least it is faster
20100410 15:27:29< Ivanovic> a *lot* faster
20100410 15:27:36< boucman> fakedrake: you go in the "misc contributor section"
20100410 15:27:44< Ivanovic> (hmm, okay, could get about even if you use a source based distribution like gentoo)
20100410 15:28:09< timotei> Ivanovic, on gentoo you have to compile all applications first?
20100410 15:28:19< timotei> that is, not direct binary install? like in ubuntu for example?
20100410 15:28:26< Ivanovic> timotei: the system does the compiling for you, but yeah, that's basically it
20100410 15:28:33< timotei> oh
20100410 15:28:37< Ivanovic> the packager manager downloads the sources and compiles them
20100410 15:28:37< boucman> yeah, it takes a couple of days, which is about the time you need to compile wesnoth on windows :P
20100410 15:28:45< timotei> :D
20100410 15:29:08< Ivanovic> boucman: nah, my system is done with all bells and whistles (okay, i take a binary package for openoffice, but that's it) in some 12h
20100410 15:29:29< boucman> hehe, jk
20100410 15:29:30< Ivanovic> (not talking about the time it takes to make wesnoth compile on windows, this might be well above those 12h)
20100410 15:30:52< timotei> yes Ivanovic , selecting+downloading the right libraries take a LOT
20100410 15:30:55< timotei> also, building boost :))
20100410 15:30:59< timotei> from source
20100410 15:31:17< Achilles> ok...i'll try cgywin...if it doesn't work then i'll install linux (it's not much of a hassel but i just feel too lazy to install linux now)
20100410 15:31:26< timotei> if you don't know how to build specific boost libs (like I didn't know at the right time) then yes, it is a long process
20100410 15:31:42< timotei> eclipse + wesnoth + linux has intellisense?
20100410 15:31:43< AI0867> fendrin: it's the inspector that's missing
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20100410 15:32:27< Achilles> ok...bye...off to make wesnoth compile
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20100410 15:38:52< fendrin> AI0867: Let's revert the inspector to the one in trunk. This inspector idea was very bad designed anyway. It was just some testing.
20100410 15:40:21< AI0867> oh
20100410 15:40:25< AI0867> I was just fixing it
20100410 15:40:45< Upthorn> that's funny, I haven't really had all that much trouble compiling wesnoth on windows. You just have to update the project files (remove nonexistent files, and add missing ones) and specify intermediate output directories
20100410 15:41:11< AI0867> and you need all the dependencies
20100410 15:41:24< Upthorn> well there's an easy zip of dependencies
20100410 15:41:43< AI0867> which is still inferior to a good (or even mediocre) package manager
20100410 15:41:47< AI0867> ;P
20100410 15:42:03< Upthorn> if you say so
20100410 15:42:57< Upthorn> anyway the main thing is making sure that source files with the same names don't put their intermediate object files in the same directory
20100410 15:43:09< Upthorn> cause then they overwrite each other and cause linking errors
20100410 15:45:56< CIA-32> ai0867 * r42093 /branches/fendrin_editor/src/gui/dialogs/ (4 files): Replace gamestate inspector with trunk version
20100410 15:47:31< CIA-32> ai0867 * r42094 /branches/fendrin_editor/src/gui/dialogs/icon_message.cpp: Remove unneeded semicolons
20100410 15:50:48< fendrin> AI0867: Well, the work isn't lost. Later, I will try to implement an improved version of the gamestate inspector and svn will remember your work.
20100410 15:51:30< AI0867> fendrin: some parts of the editor depend on the config_inspector...
20100410 15:51:42< AI0867> or, at least use it
20100410 15:52:14< fendrin> AI0867: It's only a single line of code.
20100410 15:52:38< AI0867> yeah
20100410 15:52:40< AI0867> removing it now
20100410 15:52:43< fendrin> :-)
20100410 15:54:42< CIA-32> ai0867 * r42095 /branches/fendrin_editor/src/editor/mouse_action.cpp: Comment out dependency on now nonexistant config_inspector
20100410 15:54:43< AI0867> okay, stuff works now
20100410 15:55:13< AI0867> however, placing units on maps when having multiple maps open may be broken
20100410 15:55:33< AI0867> as silene removed the unit_map parameter to the unit constructor
20100410 15:55:45< fendrin> uh
20100410 15:56:35< AI0867> segfault on placing a maplabel
20100410 15:57:40< AI0867> but that's new functionality
20100410 15:57:52< AI0867> unless you have any objections, I think it's time to merge
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20100410 15:58:07< fendrin> AI0867: Okay :-)
20100410 16:02:53< AI0867> fendrin: IIRC the pathfind branch is obsolete?
20100410 16:03:01< AI0867> as everything is already in the editor branch?
20100410 16:03:13< fendrin> AI0867: I am not sure. I hope so.
20100410 16:03:23< AI0867> okay...
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20100410 17:00:25< CIA-32> ai0867 * r42096 /trunk/ (79 files in 21 dirs): Merge fendrin_editor branch
20100410 17:01:20< CIA-32> ai0867 * r42097 /branches/fendrin_editor/: Delete fendrin_editor branch, as it has been merged
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20100410 17:11:17< aranair> ah hi happygrue, would you be free to review a proposal regarding a new alliance system? 
20100410 17:11:57< aranair> soliton: would you be free right now as well?:P
20100410 17:12:16< aranair> http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SummerofCode_Aranair
20100410 17:12:53< happygrue> aranair: not free at the moment but I can look at it sometime today, or tonight (8-10 hours) at the latest
20100410 17:14:16< aranair> happygrue: thanks alot, i'll probably be sleeping you could just post the comments here i'll be sure to read them when i wake(:
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20100410 17:40:28< YogiHH> hello
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20100410 19:11:09-!- mordante [~mordante@wesnoth/developer/mordante] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100410 19:11:19< mordante> servus
20100410 19:12:35< Ivanovic> hi mordante
20100410 19:12:39< mordante> hi Ivanovic 
20100410 19:13:00< mordante> wtf can somebody explain why the editor branch is merged without further discussion?
20100410 19:13:04< timotei> hello mordante 
20100410 19:13:07< mordante> hi timotei 
20100410 19:13:43< Ivanovic> it is merged back into trunk?!?
20100410 19:13:50< mordante> fendrin, please revert the gui2 stuff you committed, you promised I could review it before merging
20100410 19:13:55< mordante> Ivanovic, yes :-|
20100410 19:14:04< Ivanovic> ehm, not good!
20100410 19:14:46< timotei> but what was about it?
20100410 19:15:03< mordante> no especially since we talked about it yesterday
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20100410 19:20:39< timotei> hello boucman 
20100410 19:20:53< boucman> timotei: I was here a second ago ;)
20100410 19:21:03< timotei> oh yes
20100410 19:21:23< timotei> well, xchat highlights me when a "friend" comes online :P
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20100410 19:24:56< fendrin> wesbot: log last
20100410 19:26:30< timotei> wesbot: log 42097
20100410 19:26:31< wesbot> ai0867 * r42097 : Delete fendrin_editor branch, as it has been merged
20100410 19:26:34< wesbot> URL: http://svn.gna.org/viewcvs/wesnoth?view=rev&rev=42097
20100410 19:26:41< timotei> wesbot: log 42096
20100410 19:26:42< wesbot> ai0867 * r42096 : Merge fendrin_editor branch
20100410 19:26:42< wesbot> URL: http://svn.gna.org/viewcvs/wesnoth?view=rev&rev=42096
20100410 19:28:56< fendrin> wesbot: log 42095
20100410 19:28:57< wesbot> ai0867 * r42095 : Comment out dependency on now nonexistant config_inspector
20100410 19:29:00< wesbot> URL: http://svn.gna.org/viewcvs/wesnoth?view=rev&rev=42095
20100410 19:29:59< AI0867> mordante: I was not aware of that discussion, I merged it today
20100410 19:30:31< mordante> AI0867, :-( 
20100410 19:30:39< AI0867> I can revert r4209[67] if needed
20100410 19:30:55< AI0867> but I'd prefer not to
20100410 19:31:00< CIA-32> fendrin * r42098 /trunk/ (95 files in 21 dirs): Reverted back to 42095.
20100410 19:31:43< fendrin> Oh no
20100410 19:31:47< fendrin> That was wrong.
20100410 19:31:55< fendrin> Damn. I hate svn.
20100410 19:32:50< AI0867> merge -c -42098 -c 42096
20100410 19:33:07< fendrin> AI0867: The problem is that I had local changes.
20100410 19:33:10< AI0867> ah
20100410 19:33:16< fendrin> I guess they got commited as well.
20100410 19:33:23< fendrin> It's the luck slider :-)
20100410 19:37:34< fendrin> No idea how to get this out again.
20100410 19:37:44< boucman> more reverting :P
20100410 19:38:17< CIA-32> fendrin * r42099 /trunk/ (19 files in 2 dirs): More reverting.
20100410 19:38:23< timotei> :))
20100410 19:39:07< fendrin> That destroyed my local work, right?
20100410 19:39:30< boucman> fendrin: if you commited it accidentally, you can probably get it back from svn
20100410 19:39:30< timotei> can't revert the files?
20100410 19:39:59< fendrin> YogiHH: Are you around?
20100410 19:40:44< fendrin> wesbot: seen YogiHH
20100410 19:40:44< wesbot> fendrin: Queried user last spoke 2h ago.  YogiHH is currently in this channel.
20100410 19:43:26< AI0867> fendrin: checking...
20100410 19:43:39< AI0867> and to restore your local work: merge -c -42099
20100410 19:43:57< fendrin> AI0867: Thank you :-)
20100410 19:43:58< AI0867> fendrin: only one difference between 42095 and 42099
20100410 19:44:11< AI0867> --- src/ai/composite/value_translator.hpp       (revision 42095)
20100410 19:44:12< AI0867> +++ src/ai/composite/value_translator.hpp       (revision 42099)
20100410 19:44:12< AI0867> @@ -1,4 +1,4 @@
20100410 19:44:12< AI0867> -/* $Id: value_translator.hpp 38379 2009 - 2010-09-03 23:23:37Z crab $ */
20100410 19:44:12< AI0867> +/* $Id$ */
20100410 19:44:43< AI0867> mordante: everything has been reverted
20100410 19:45:24< AI0867> could you notify me when you're done reviewing? I'd like to merge it before new things are refactored and the diff is broken again
20100410 19:46:19< AI0867> the diff is: svn diff -r 42095 svn+ssh://ai0867@svn.gna.org/svn/wesnoth/trunk svn+ssh://ai0867@svn.gna.org/svn/wesnoth/branches/fendrin_editor
20100410 19:46:28< AI0867> there are some stray things in there, but not much
20100410 19:50:08< AI0867> of course, get rid of the ai0867@ part
20100410 19:50:58-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: GSoC: Thanks to all GSoC candidates for submitting proposals to Google. Accepted student applications announced on April 26. | 87 bugs, 264 feature requests, 17 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
20100410 19:52:48< AI0867> stray parts like: indentation, comments, svn properties and some mysterious changes to the tutorial unit portraits
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20100410 19:53:50< fendrin> AI0867: I will merge my changes in YogiHH experimental branch.
20100410 19:53:56< AI0867> better diffline: svn diff svn://svn.gna.org/svn/wesnoth/trunk@42095 svn://svn.gna.org/svn/wesnoth/branches/fendrin_editor@42095
20100410 19:54:49< AI0867> does that exist yet?
20100410 19:55:07< fendrin> AI0867: No, I hope that it will be created soon, very soon.
20100410 19:55:53< AI0867> fendrin: if you're going to branch, branch from svn://svn.gna.org/svn/wesnoth/trunk@42096
20100410 19:55:57< mordante> AI0867, which part is exactly reverted?
20100410 19:56:04< AI0867> mordante: all of it
20100410 19:56:17< AI0867> except for an /* $Id$ */ comment
20100410 19:56:31< mordante> ok
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20100410 20:48:18< YogiHH> fendrin: now i am here
20100410 20:49:26< fendrin> YogiHH: I would like to continue my work on the new editor in peace and I see this only possible in the experimental fork. 
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20100410 20:50:51< fendrin> YogiHH: Can we fork from 42096, there it was merged into trunk but reverted out again later.
20100410 20:51:01< YogiHH> fendrin: Are you sure about that (the peace i mean)? I am strongly opposed to enhancing the editor this way.
20100410 20:51:19< YogiHH> fendrin: just kidding ;)
20100410 20:51:26< fendrin> :-)
20100410 20:51:45< YogiHH> is that still a 1.8 revision?
20100410 20:52:40< fendrin> No, it's in 1.9/trunk.
20100410 20:53:27< YogiHH> fendrin: that was more than a single commit, right?
20100410 20:53:32< fendrin> No
20100410 20:53:44< fendrin> It's a single commit.
20100410 20:54:40< YogiHH> fendrin: how about forking from 1.8 and applying that one commit afterwards?
20100410 20:57:30< fendrin> YogiHH: Okay.
20100410 20:57:44< fendrin> What needs to be done?
20100410 20:58:05< fendrin> Registering a new project at gna or another host?
20100410 20:58:29< YogiHH> fendrin: I guess so. I plan to check that out in a few minutes (when my children went to sleep) :)
20100410 20:58:49< timotei> fendrin, had you time to come across my proposal?
20100410 20:59:15< fendrin> timotei: yes, I will give written feedback to it soon.
20100410 20:59:33< Soliton> why do you want to fork instead of using a branch?
20100410 21:00:25< YogiHH> Soliton: Because of svn access rights, mainly.
20100410 21:01:01< Soliton> ah, who else will be contributing?
20100410 21:01:26< YogiHH> Soliton: I don't know yet, but i want to be open if i feel it makes sense
20100410 21:02:55< AI0867> YogiHH: how do you propose merging the changes back into trunk if you fork stable?
20100410 21:05:20< YogiHH> AI0867: Well, i don't plan to merge them back in the first place. However, i plan to have certain features be separated enough to easily merge them back if it is desired. I might even be implementing some mechanism to switch features on and off during runtime (probably very much depending on the feature, though).
20100410 21:06:14-!- endercoaster [~endercoas@132.161.243.60] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100410 21:06:27< endercoaster> Hello
20100410 21:06:35< timotei> hello endercoaster 
20100410 21:06:47< AI0867> not merging it back? that sounds like a recipe for future maintenance hell 
20100410 21:07:36< AI0867> maintaining it as a patchset (to trunk) could work, but a patchset to 1.8 will be awful to merge a month from now
20100410 21:08:30< Soliton> is there some discussion about this somewhere, btw? i feel like i'm missing something.
20100410 21:08:40< YogiHH> AI0867: The problem is, that there are most likely a couple of features that are not desired to be merged back.
20100410 21:09:22< YogiHH> Soliton: Well, the discussion is pretty short atm :)
20100410 21:09:29< YogiHH> Soliton: http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=29412
20100410 21:09:54< AI0867> YogiHH: well, these particular features (pathfind and editor) sound like good candidates for mainline
20100410 21:10:10< AI0867> pathfind would have been in trunk already if it hadn't been for the feature freeze
20100410 21:10:26< YogiHH> AI0867: Yes, but rng changes are probably not ;)
20100410 21:10:31< AI0867> true
20100410 21:14:59< silene> AI0867: note that the slowdown of the pathfinder has not been measured yet, so the pathfinder changes may well be reverted later if they are much too costly for the ai
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20100410 21:29:31< timotei> fendrin, I'm going home now. We'll talk later or tomorrow
20100410 21:29:38< timotei> where you want to write the feedback?
20100410 21:32:11< icelus> boucman, around?
20100410 21:32:20< boucman> yup
20100410 21:34:00< icelus> boucman, sorry you were looking for me or something
20100410 21:34:10< icelus> some cool irc bot gave me a little message when i signed on
20100410 21:34:22< icelus> i saw you applied the villages patch, that's cool thanks
20100410 21:35:06< icelus> i will finish the story screen patch once i get this 15560 thing done...
20100410 21:35:12< icelus> i don't have free disk space for two working copies
20100410 21:35:28< icelus> and it takes several hours to rebuild after reverting one set of changes for one patch
20100410 21:35:40< icelus> so i'm prevented from finishing it right now
20100410 21:36:03< icelus> i'm not a gsoc student either, as you rightly thought =)
20100410 21:36:28< icelus> just a regular phd student looking for some fun easy code to fill up the evenings =p
20100410 21:37:10< boucman> hehe
20100410 21:37:43< boucman> yes, I inquired wesbot only to have an idea of your timezone, your patches are usually fine
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20100410 21:37:57< icelus> i'm in the uk
20100410 21:38:19< icelus> but i stay up late and get up late so its verging on east coast usa time often =p
20100410 21:38:26< boucman> ok, i'm on the other side of the channel :)
20100410 21:38:39-!- lfernando [~luiz@201-27-198-45.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100410 21:38:43< icelus> =)
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20100410 21:38:59< icelus> vive la france
20100410 21:39:07< icelus> i would be too if i could
20100410 21:41:00< silene> icelus: your coding skills seem good enough; get someone (e.g. Ivanovic) to give you svn write access if you intend to stay around
20100410 21:41:26< boucman> silene: you bet me to it :)
20100410 21:41:42< icelus> oh nice compliment thanks silene =)
20100410 21:42:52< icelus> i'm not sure quite what my plans are
20100410 21:43:01-!- gabba [~gabba@70.35.163.161] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100410 21:43:08< gabba> hi
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20100410 21:44:02< Ivanovic> boucman, silene: does icelus already have the number of patches in?
20100410 21:44:04< Ivanovic> if yes:
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20100410 21:44:15< Ivanovic> icelus: please apply for group membership at gna.org
20100410 21:44:22< Ivanovic> will add you in then
20100410 21:44:38< icelus> Ivanovic, i only have 1 patch in at the moment at it's tiny
20100410 21:44:43< icelus> i'm not in any hurry anyway
20100410 21:44:59< icelus> i'm content to be submitting patches for now til I get up to speed on your coding standards
20100410 21:45:16< Ivanovic> make sure your got an ssh key uploaded (if you just updated it it will take some time till it is in the system), you can switch your repository to one using your user account which allows you to commit stuff yourself
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20100410 21:45:29< Ivanovic> icelus: if you got commit access anyway, you can just commit the stuff yourself
20100410 21:45:30< Ivanovic> ;)
20100410 21:45:53< icelus> with great power comes great responsibility
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20100410 21:45:59< icelus> i'm not sure i'm ready for my peter parker moment
20100410 21:46:27 * Polarina ponders.
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20100410 21:46:38< Ivanovic> icelus: pah
20100410 21:46:44< icelus> i'll think about it anyway, it's more an issue of not really playing wesnoth... i was really just playing with the code
20100410 21:46:52< Ivanovic> icelus: in general you are of course still free to ask others to review your changes
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20100410 21:54:06< Dwight> why cant you go past level 3
20100410 21:54:18< Ivanovic> because!
20100410 21:54:40< Ivanovic> in fact: some units have a max level of 2, others of 3 and again others even go to level 4
20100410 21:54:51< Ivanovic> have a look at units.wesnoth.org to get an idea about this stuff
20100410 21:57:14< AI0867> and some have a max of level 1
20100410 21:57:59< Dwight> laudanum some units can go to level 4
20100410 21:58:04< Dwight> http://units.wesnoth.org/1.8/C/mainline.html
20100410 21:58:31< boucman> yes, very few.. and it rarely happen, you'd get better return by leveling lower units
20100410 21:58:37< lfernando> then some units have level 5
20100410 21:58:52< lfernando> and you can create your own units
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20100410 21:59:22< lfernando> that go to whatever level you want them to go
20100410 21:59:36< boucman> and amlas
20100410 21:59:53< Ivanovic> but keep in mind that each level adds one gold to the upkeep!
20100410 22:00:08< Ivanovic> so if your nonloyal unit is level 100 it gets *really* expensive
20100410 22:09:21< lfernando> I guess it's a game design choice here
20100410 22:09:50< lfernando> if you could just make your units stronger and stronger
20100410 22:10:16< lfernando> it would lead to a RPG on LoTR situation
20100410 22:10:32< lfernando> where you had two level 9 units
20100410 22:10:41< lfernando> fighting three armies at once
20100410 22:10:48< boucman> hehe
20100410 22:11:06< lfernando> it would be fun, but a different game altogether =)
20100410 22:13:33-!- mordante [~mordante@wesnoth/developer/mordante] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
20100410 22:20:06< YogiHH> afk
20100410 22:21:03< boucman> gabba: how did yesterday's game turn out ?
20100410 22:21:09< gabba> Ivanovic: I was wondering if I could eventually backport this to 1.8.x: https://gna.org/patch/?1528
20100410 22:21:26< gabba> boucman: we played several games actually :)
20100410 22:21:36< gabba> I teamed up with happygrue
20100410 22:22:03< boucman> and was it interesting ? did you learn a lot ?
20100410 22:22:05< gabba> first one we beat Chains and a complete newbie
20100410 22:22:21< boucman> chains is not bad IIRC
20100410 22:22:31< gabba> second one I got utterly crushed by Jb who teamed up with chains
20100410 22:22:35< boucman> but teaming with a newbie is a huge disadventage
20100410 22:22:44< boucman> jb is a good player too :P
20100410 22:23:14< gabba> happygrue and I had undead vs drakes(jb) and outlaws I think (chains)
20100410 22:23:34< gabba> and I don't know drakes well so I wasn't sure what to do :P
20100410 22:23:48< boucman> it's a tricky race
20100410 22:23:53< boucman> fast, solid, expensive
20100410 22:24:05< gabba> and very undead-toasting
20100410 22:24:07< boucman> you have to learn to play with numeric disadvantage
20100410 22:24:46< gabba> well, I learned a few things, but I wasn't as clueless as I thought I'd be
20100410 22:25:07< boucman> :P
20100410 22:26:05< gabba> so no epiphany, but I learned a bit about what recruit patterns are good in mp, and also tactics are a bit different since human players are smarter than the AI
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20100410 22:26:22< gabba> well, sometimes :P
20100410 22:27:41< gabba> boucman: what's the policy on backporting stuff to stable?
20100410 22:28:14< boucman> Ivanovic would know better than me, but it's basically "only bugfix"
20100410 22:29:25< gabba> boucman: I think naming local players something else than "Anonymous local player" qualifies as a bugfix, but I don't know if Ivanovic will agree
20100410 22:29:53< gabba> hotseat is like the neglected child of mp
20100410 22:30:30< boucman> gabba: well, you should ask him
20100410 22:30:45< gabba> I just did :)
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20100410 22:40:10< pokhbocee> hey guys
20100410 22:44:00< Ivanovic> gabba: i don't think that this change will add really much to 1.8
20100410 22:44:19< Ivanovic> what does naming of the local players in hotseat (something barely used) give you anyway?
20100410 22:44:35< gabba> Ivanovic: the worst aspect of this "bug" is that it really breaks dialogs
20100410 22:44:50< Ivanovic> huh?
20100410 22:45:00< gabba> i.e. when two players are supposed to be talking together in the scenario,
20100410 22:45:27< gabba> you get a nice conversation between "Anonymous Local Player" and "Anonymous Local Player" -- goodbye immersion
20100410 22:46:04< gabba> besides "Anonymous Local Player" is way too wide and gets cut off everywhere it's displayed: looks awful
20100410 22:46:07< Ivanovic> seldom corner case!
20100410 22:46:37< gabba> um no, I played hotseat quite a bit, and it's quite common
20100410 22:46:51< Ivanovic> playing hotseat?
20100410 22:46:55< gabba> and worse if you play umc content like rpb
20100410 22:47:05< gabba> s/rpb/rpg
20100410 22:47:24< gabba> well yeah, some people use that feature don't you know ;)
20100410 22:47:24< Ivanovic> like i said, i don't think this is really one of the changes that got to be backported
20100410 22:47:44< Ivanovic> or how will eg renaming in multiplayer matches of "local player" work?
20100410 22:48:30< gabba> I don't really get the question... did you see the effect of my patch yet?
20100410 22:49:00< Ivanovic> no
20100410 22:49:11< Ivanovic> is it already commited to trunk?
20100410 22:49:15< gabba> yes
20100410 22:49:27< gabba> just start a hotseat game and you'll see the button
20100410 22:51:26< Ivanovic> for the rename stuff it is not enough to simply have the player click on their leader and select "rename unit"?
20100410 22:51:37< Ivanovic> does this not do the job, too?
20100410 22:52:42< gabba> Is it always possible?
20100410 22:53:05< gabba> I think I remember testing that before, and that it wasn't always a possibility, depending on scenarios
20100410 22:53:36< Ivanovic> those cases where renaming is not possible are f***ed up anyway
20100410 22:53:52< gabba> but even then, dialogs are often at the beginning of a scenario, and you don't get to rename the unit before that!
20100410 22:53:55< Ivanovic> since in those cases you play a hero who does have a fixed name (eg you play kalenz in LoW)
20100410 22:54:18< Ivanovic> in general the whole local player stuff is, hmm, messy
20100410 22:54:44< gabba> I know... but it's bearable overall, this was really the worst offender
20100410 22:54:57< Ivanovic> how does it now handle things like duplicate names?
20100410 22:55:15< Ivanovic> eg: i created a game on the mp server with a local player named, hmm "ABC"
20100410 22:55:24< gabba> It doesn't accept it, displays the dialogue again until you enter a unique name
20100410 22:55:24< Ivanovic> this player is currently not in the lobby and nothing like this
20100410 22:55:31< Ivanovic> the game is started
20100410 22:55:48< Ivanovic> later on the player ABC joins the mp lobby (not the game yet): what happens?
20100410 22:56:04< Ivanovic> next scenario: after joining the mp lobby the user ABC does join the game as observer
20100410 22:56:09< Ivanovic> what now?
20100410 22:56:22< gabba> I really don't know how the interaction with the lobby would play
20100410 22:56:49< Ivanovic> and how do those "local names" work in regards to whisper and the like?
20100410 22:56:56< gabba> But duplicate names don't seem to bother the game engine, since two "Anonymous Local Player" work, isn't i?
20100410 22:57:02< gabba> s/i/it
20100410 22:57:12< Ivanovic> to be honest: i got no idea
20100410 22:57:38< gabba> well, I can test those two scenarios
20100410 22:57:59< Ivanovic> in this case i just see lots of potential for problems so i am really hesitant regarding backporting this new feature
20100410 22:58:16< Ivanovic> (since a way to adding "ghost players" to a match is a feature and not just a plain bugfix)
20100410 22:58:19< Ivanovic> ;)
20100410 22:58:32< gabba> the best would probably to strictly limit this to hotseat
20100410 22:58:50< Ivanovic> gabba: here i smell a real mess...
20100410 22:58:53< gabba> then the issues you mentioned don't come up
20100410 22:58:58< Ivanovic> gabba: at fosdem we talked about unifying things more
20100410 22:59:15< Ivanovic> gabba: so that the difference that currently exists between single and multiplayer gets reduced more and more
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20100410 22:59:46< Ivanovic> so that in the end you would in theory have no real difference between having a singleplayer game and a multiplayer game (beside that some data is transmitted somewhere else when in multiplayer)
20100410 23:00:17< Ivanovic> currently we have some mess due to different behaviour in some places if you are in singleplayer vs in multiplayer which is at least problematic for campaigns
20100410 23:00:23< gabba> I see - well, the other option is: IF this is a networked game on the official server, check before accepting a name whether it's registered
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20100410 23:01:22< Ivanovic> hmm, this feels problematic, too
20100410 23:01:24< gabba> but restricting the creation of local players to hotseat would be a security feature, hardly an extra difference between single and multi, I think
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20100410 23:01:45< Ivanovic> imagine that i visit eg you and we want to play a multiplayer game on the server against boucman
20100410 23:01:56< Ivanovic> everyone of us wants the normal nick used
20100410 23:02:06< Ivanovic> but, of course, my account *is* registered
20100410 23:02:17< AI0867> if you don't want to open up two clients, a named local player would probably be best
20100410 23:02:19< gabba> you mean two hotseat players vs 1 networked right?
20100410 23:02:23< AI0867> yes
20100410 23:02:36< Ivanovic> so creating a "fake player" would get a message "you can't use this name, it is already registered"
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20100410 23:02:52< Ivanovic> two local players, one network player
20100410 23:03:05< Ivanovic> since i checked, the feature is there for games on the server, too
20100410 23:03:26< AI0867> so, you'd need to log that player in too...
20100410 23:03:39< Ivanovic> fun...
20100410 23:03:40< AI0867> which is far more complicated than this patch
20100410 23:03:45< gabba> I see that if the feature is to be useful, it would require more work/discussion... but still, the situation with hotseat games doesn't look very professional
20100410 23:03:51< AI0867> so, limiting it to hotseat for now seems like the best solution
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20100410 23:04:18< Ivanovic> sadly this introduces another check beside singleplayer and multiplayer
20100410 23:04:42< Ivanovic> gabba: i don't know if this "duplicate name" stuff really does create any problems
20100410 23:05:07< Ivanovic> gabba: and i don't have an idea how it *might* create problems, it is just that i see lots of potential in worst case scenarios
20100410 23:05:44< gabba> Ivanovic: well I told you: god-awful dialogs on scenario start (even some official ones I think) is the problem I noticed, but apart from that I don't know
20100410 23:06:19< Ivanovic> why would several users play with just one client anyway?
20100410 23:06:21< Ivanovic> ;)
20100410 23:06:36< gabba> They must be insane like me I guess :P
20100410 23:06:56< AI0867> the gp2x branch looks rather dead, last commit being in june 2008
20100410 23:07:01< gabba> Or have a girlfriend and only one computer ;)
20100410 23:07:17< Ivanovic> AI0867: talk to grzybacz about it
20100410 23:07:52< AI0867> grzybacz: do you mind if I get rid of your gp2x branch? it hasn't been touched for almost 2 years
20100410 23:08:23< AI0867> hmm, his gna account is grzywacz
20100410 23:08:31< AI0867> which does sound more familiar...
20100410 23:08:46< Ivanovic> yeah, he has something for those unpronouncible nicks
20100410 23:08:57< Ivanovic> it is the same one behind those two
20100410 23:09:24< Ivanovic> anyway, i am rather off now
20100410 23:10:07< Ivanovic> gabba: maybe ilor_ or YogiHH know about the possible effects of duplicate names in games/the lobby/the server
20100410 23:11:08< gabba> Ivanovic: ok - in any case I can't look into it in depth; if locking my feature to hotseat is acceptable I could get that in quick, but otherwise I don't have time because of GSoC
20100410 23:11:41< Ivanovic> i think for the moment locking this to hotseat is probably the way to go
20100410 23:11:44< happygrue> Ivanovic: gabba: I am really in favor of renaming "Anonymous Local Player" also, does have an impact on the server too.  However, I am not sure if it warrents a backport, so I will stay out of that
20100410 23:12:02< gabba> But really if you're offering various game types you can't avoid having a few differences between those in code; as long as all the differences are *before* a certain point you still share most code...
20100410 23:12:27< Ivanovic> gabba: have a look at the "real" differences between join server and host game
20100410 23:12:40< Ivanovic> gabba: there is in fact the only extra code that you start the local server
20100410 23:12:48< gabba> I did look a bit when writing my patch
20100410 23:13:09< Ivanovic> in general there is supposed to "not be much of a difference" whereever possible
20100410 23:13:27< Ivanovic> if you find a difference and no reason for it, check if it can be nuked
20100410 23:13:38< Ivanovic> afk
20100410 23:16:32< ilor_> Ivanovic: atm the server will simply disallow duplicate name
20100410 23:16:34< ilor_> s
20100410 23:16:48< happygrue> an example of where this happens on the mp server is when 2 players play a co-op scenaro or campaign that is designed for 3 players but have one player controlling 2 sides
20100410 23:17:10< gabba> ilor_: so an observer with duplicate name to a player will be blocked?
20100410 23:18:05< gabba> happygrue: what happens then?
20100410 23:18:33< happygrue> so f you and I played and I controlled two sides gabba, then side one is gabba, side two is Wintermute, side 3 is "Anonymous Local Player"
20100410 23:18:38< happygrue> for all dialog too
20100410 23:18:50< happygrue> so for 3p campaign that is not ideal
20100410 23:18:51-!- lfernando [~luiz@201-27-198-45.dsl.telesp.net.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
20100410 23:19:00< gabba> the horror, the horror
20100410 23:19:10< happygrue> hehe
20100410 23:19:25< happygrue> it's enough to make a person want to run in circles screaming!
20100410 23:19:33< gabba> definitely!
20100410 23:19:58< happygrue> so it's an issue, I don't know about backporting - it doesn't seem like a big enough deal to me for "a hassle" whatever that is
20100410 23:20:09< happygrue> but in future versions I guess a bug report/FR would be good
20100410 23:20:15< happygrue> gabba: have you already filed one?
20100410 23:20:51-!- stikonas [~and@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
20100410 23:21:08< gabba> happygrue: better, I submitted a patch and it got commited -- the host can currently create named local players, but I don't know if it fixes your instance of the problem
20100410 23:21:25< gabba> I guess it does if the host controls 2 sides, then he can name them differently
20100410 23:21:43-!- mjs-de [~mjs-de@vpw.wh.uni-dortmund.de] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100410 23:21:49< happygrue> gabba: I can't recall, but it might also happen with players leaving and rejoining
20100410 23:21:58< happygrue> it used to, I don't remember in 1.8
20100410 23:22:11< gabba> happygrue: damn, the problem is wider than I thought
20100410 23:22:31< happygrue> I think renaming does work in the latter case though
20100410 23:22:41< happygrue> I have never cared about it enough to look into it
20100410 23:22:50< happygrue> (I am not as big on 'flavor' as gameplay)
20100410 23:22:56< happygrue> but I have noticed it
20100410 23:23:14< happygrue> we can do some testing sometime if you like
20100410 23:23:19< happygrue> also, nice job last night
20100410 23:23:24< happygrue> did you play another game after I left?
20100410 23:23:35< gabba> the thing is, Wesnoth looks so professional overall that this flaw really sticks out IMO
20100410 23:23:42< gabba> thanks :)
20100410 23:23:43-!- elias [~elias@allegro/developer/allefant] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20100410 23:24:00< gabba> jb tried to drag us into this gigantic map that lasts 4 hours
20100410 23:24:16< gabba> we started but then he dropped out from some reason
20100410 23:24:30< happygrue> hehe
20100410 23:25:01< gabba> can't remember the name of the map, it's got a command center and teleporters to various areas, you start with lots of scattered units
20100410 23:25:09< happygrue> gabba: jb tends to imbibe while playing, and occasionally it catches up to him.  ;)
20100410 23:25:24< happygrue> gabba: I know it, jb created it
20100410 23:25:29< gabba> ah... could be why
20100410 23:25:34< happygrue> we have been thinking about scenarios with pre-set units
20100410 23:25:41< happygrue> more in 'wargame' fasion than recruiting
20100410 23:25:49< happygrue> that is his first attempt at that idea
20100410 23:26:04< gabba> interesting (I'm a wargame player)
20100410 23:26:59< happygrue> yes, noy and I also are fans of wargames
20100410 23:27:26-!- meric [~Eric@124-170-188-18.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100410 23:27:33< gabba> the map looks nice, but wow it's... intimidating at first
20100410 23:27:45< happygrue> few serious attempts at preset scenarios have been made to my knowledge
20100410 23:27:49< happygrue> it's a fun map
20100410 23:29:01< gabba> it's getting a good glance of the initial situation that I find difficult. Wesnoth needs a "Supreme Commander" mode where you zoom out and the units turn into colored icons, for this kind of situation
20100410 23:29:44< gabba> I understood what was going on after everyone and the AI had played a turn though
20100410 23:30:42-!- Espreon [~espreon@wesnoth/developer/espreon] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100410 23:30:44< gabba> I want to try it again at some point
20100410 23:30:49< happygrue> gabba: his scenario is a great example of where your ally system might work well though
20100410 23:31:00< happygrue> since you are coordinating all over the map
20100410 23:31:33< gabba> true, it would help a lot
20100410 23:32:35< happygrue> gabba: my feeling is that some turns players would not use it at all
20100410 23:32:59< ilor_> gabba: atm you can't log on the server twice under the same nick
20100410 23:33:00< happygrue> clash for example, several turns we had no units touching, and some games you are each playing on your own NEXT to your ally quite a bid
20100410 23:33:03< happygrue> *bit
20100410 23:33:07< ilor_> (was afk, sorry)
20100410 23:33:32< gabba> ilor_: you mean the game server or the mp lobby?
20100410 23:33:32< happygrue> but then a few units cross over and then coordination is needed.
20100410 23:33:43< happygrue> gabba: the server
20100410 23:33:48< gabba> ok
20100410 23:34:02< happygrue> I missed that question, sorry
20100410 23:34:27< happygrue> you have the option to kick the user if you try to log in as a name that is already taken (if you know that user's password)
20100410 23:34:38< happygrue> so that a ghost doesn't sit there and take your name
20100410 23:34:54-!- Johannes13 [~Johannes@unaffiliated/johannes13] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
20100410 23:36:43< gabba> happygrue: Seems like my local player adding would work then, with the small risk of naming one the same as a registered nick who might then kick you out... pretty slim chance
20100410 23:37:31< happygrue> gabba: how does it work?
20100410 23:38:03< gabba> happygrue: you can start a recent trunk build and take a look ;), or do you want me to explain it?
20100410 23:38:37< happygrue> host chooses what to rename the player?
20100410 23:39:36-!- timotei [~timotei@188.24.5.53] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
20100410 23:39:45< gabba> no, actually you have a button to add a new player of a name you type to the player list
20100410 23:39:51< happygrue> I can take a look later. 
20100410 23:40:02< gabba> and then the host can assign it to a position just like any other player
20100410 23:40:20< gabba> it does check if a player of the same name already joined the game
20100410 23:40:30< happygrue> I see
20100410 23:42:50< AI0867> gabba: you *can* zoom out at the moment
20100410 23:43:02< AI0867> though it does get increasingly slower as you zoom out further
20100410 23:43:23< gabba> AI0867: you can zoom out, but you don't get a color blob or icon view do you?
20100410 23:43:27< AI0867> nope
20100410 23:44:06< AI0867> the planned port to opengl will make zooming work much better, but it won't do that
20100410 23:44:45< silene> AI0867: planned? is there really someone working on it?
20100410 23:45:32< AI0867> 'planned' as in, there are vague plans to do it some day
20100410 23:46:07< AI0867> at fosdem we decided that opengl support is good enough
20100410 23:51:30< gabba> Hmm, it's pretty bad. I tried adding a named local player and then joining the same game with another client entering the lobby with the same name, and the second player joins and *looks* like he took the local player's place. Then I started the game and both I and the other client had control over the second side, so obviously desync ensues.
20100410 23:51:47< gabba> This needs more work... restricting to hot seat definitely sounds like a good idea.
20100410 23:52:46< gabba> for now at least
20100410 23:53:49< gabba> afk
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--- Log closed Sun Apr 11 00:00:39 2010