--- Log opened Thu Apr 22 00:00:06 2010
--- Day changed Thu Apr 22 2010
20100422 00:00:05< fakedrake> Crab_: i found this( http://wiki.wesnoth.org/NotSoEasyCoding#Move_and_targeting_phase ) interesting, do you know if there has been a patch already?
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20100422 00:00:40< Crab_> fakedrake: no, I'm certain that no one has tried
20100422 00:02:51< Crab_> fakedrake: and it's not so easy. for one, we need to trap WML gamestate mutations and switch back to 'full recalculation' if anything weird happens with the unit map
20100422 00:03:14< Crab_> (that's about 'movement maps are invalidated after each move, and are recalculated from the start. yet, if we are doing just a sequence of moves, we can just 'remove moved unit from moves' after each move and avoid expensive recalculation of the movement map. ')
20100422 00:04:07< Crab_> second point is independent from first, and is somewhat related to recruitment [most tasks need devoting more than one unit to execute (i.e., it's meaningless to go for the enemy position with just 1 unit). So, making individual decisions just does some repeating calculations, which is slow. ]
20100422 00:05:19< Crab_> the easiest way to think about it is the 'fish' example: "ai see that the map has lots of water, so it recruits fish, ai checks where the current objectives are - they're on land. and the AI will happily send fish on land"
20100422 00:05:55< Crab_> also see NR:Showdown for the example of slowness with large amount of units involved.
20100422 00:05:58< fakedrake> i didnt quite catch that last one
20100422 00:06:17< fakedrake> the fish thing
20100422 00:06:46< Crab_> ai recruitment should be connected with ai movement and targeting phase. currently things are done in reverse order -ai recruits something that it thinks is good, and then it tries to do something good with it, and often fails.
20100422 00:07:00< fakedrake> oh ok
20100422 00:07:10< Crab_> but, actually, AI should plan (roughtly) the moves before recruiting things.
20100422 00:07:50< fakedrake> hmm
20100422 00:07:50< Crab_> for example, if the AI is going to recruit fish (naga/mermen/etc), then it needs to do so because it needs, say, a water village to grab - and it must actually use that fish for that purpose.
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20100422 00:08:50< fakedrake> i will take a look at the code
20100422 00:09:11< Crab_> fakedrake: ok. there's many interesting problem topics in there.
20100422 00:09:20< fakedrake> is there any documentation on ai code
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20100422 00:09:44< Crab_> fakedrake: file overview - http://wiki.wesnoth.org/Ai_Module#Source_files
20100422 00:10:00< fakedrake> thank you
20100422 00:10:03< Crab_> and the user documentation at ( http://wiki.wesnoth.org/Customizing_AI_in_Wesnoth_1.8 )
20100422 00:10:16< Crab_> but, mostly, it's "ask questions"
20100422 00:10:35< fakedrake> ok i will start with these and tha code and i will come back to you
20100422 00:10:40< fakedrake> thanx
20100422 00:11:09< Crab_> ok. note that if you want to code some ai things, you can just code a ai component, 'stage' or a 'candidate action'. look for those in src/ai/testing/*
20100422 00:11:48< Crab_> for example, current 'movement and targeting' phase is in src/ai/testing/ca_testing_move_to_targets.?pp  , and many other candidate actions are in src/ai/testing/ca.?ppp
20100422 00:11:52< Crab_> s/ppp/pp
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20100422 00:14:53< fakedrake> ok
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20100422 00:19:45< YogiHH> hello
20100422 00:20:08< Crab_> hi, YogiHH
20100422 00:21:41< YogiHH> Crab_, i have a question about the wiki. I looked at the DPV tag and i figured out how to do an automated list with a table design. However, i would like to have some special content (the feature status) as a column in that table, too. I couldn't find in the wiki how to do that. I read about templates, variables and named parameters but i don't know how to implement this correct.
20100422 00:22:20< YogiHH> Crab_: can you give me a hint at what to look for?
20100422 00:22:22< Crab_> the easiest way is to make that 'special content' a separate section in the per-feature wiki pages.
20100422 00:22:39< Crab_> then, you can include several sections of 'target' pages in your summary page
20100422 00:22:49< Crab_> and one of them will contain exactly that 'status' info.
20100422 00:22:55< YogiHH> ah, a section, ok
20100422 00:23:28< Crab_> for example, see http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SummerOfCodeStudents_IRC
20100422 00:27:11< YogiHH> Crab_: Is there some sort of display_name property, so that i don't see the filename with all those underscores and stuff?
20100422 00:32:12< Crab_> well, there is %TITLE%, but you might need to use a user format for that. or you can try to abuse replaceintitle (see manual,  http://semeb.com/dpldemo/index.php?title=DPL:Manual_-_DPL_parameters:_Controlling_output_format#replaceintitle )
20100422 00:37:11< Crab_> YogiHH: for example, "  replaceintitle=/WesnothExperimental Feature/,         " can be used to make those links shorter
20100422 00:37:34< Crab_> also, you can exclude the template page from the list
20100422 00:37:36< YogiHH> i see
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20100422 01:23:44< Hethrir> Does anyone run CMake on windows?
20100422 01:23:48< Hethrir> Without the GUI?
20100422 01:23:55< Crab_> Hethrir: yes
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20100422 03:08:08< Hethrir> Hello
20100422 03:09:07< Hethrir> 92 bugs
20100422 03:09:12< Hethrir> >.<
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20100422 03:50:48< Hethrir> I have 2 characters with the same name :/
20100422 03:50:51< Hethrir> 2 units
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20100422 03:52:45< ancestral> Yeah?
20100422 03:53:00< Hethrir> Is that supposed to happen?
20100422 03:53:16< Hethrir> Hey noy
20100422 03:53:22< noy> hello
20100422 03:53:22< ancestral> Well, it's a random generator
20100422 03:53:27< ancestral> Markov chains aren't perfect
20100422 03:53:35< Hethrir> Ohh so thats what we use
20100422 03:54:00< ancestral> I guess someone could make a check that drops a name if it's already in game?
20100422 03:54:16< ancestral> Then again, in this world, there are many people with the same name, so…
20100422 03:54:39< Hethrir> The real question is, is it really a bug
20100422 03:55:34< Hethrir> Also does anyone use scons in windows?
20100422 03:55:49< Hethrir> I would normally ask loonycyborg, but he's off
20100422 04:38:39< Hethrir> MP chat doesn't support aphostrophe
20100422 04:38:43< Hethrir> 's?
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20100422 04:41:49< Hethrir> MP chat doesn't support apostrophe 's?
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20100422 04:55:11< Hethrir> Who should I report AI bugs to?
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20100422 09:23:42-!- Topic for #wesnoth-dev: GSoC: Thanks to all GSoC candidates for submitting proposals to Google. Accepted student applications announced on April 26. | 92 bugs, 273 feature requests, 19 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
20100422 09:23:42-!- Topic set by wesbot [~wesbot@wesnoth/bot/wesbot] [Wed Apr 21 19:50:59 2010]
20100422 09:23:42[Users #wesnoth-dev]
20100422 09:23:42[ ABCD      ] [ ctrlfrea1] [ fendrin  ] [ isaac   ] [ qemqemqem__ ] [ Tigge    ] 
20100422 09:23:42[ AI0867    ] [ deekay   ] [ freim    ] [ Ivanovic] [ Rhonda      ] [ Vetinari ] 
20100422 09:23:42[ AnMaster  ] [ erl      ] [ gabba    ] [ knotwork] [ shadowmaster] [ wesbot   ] 
20100422 09:23:42[ apoi      ] [ Espreon  ] [ Greywhind] [ lobby   ] [ shikadibot  ] [ yann     ] 
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20100422 09:23:42[ Bocom_    ] [ ettin    ] [ ilor_    ] [ nagbot  ] [ Smar        ] [ zookeeper] 
20100422 09:23:42[ CIA-32    ] [ fakedrake] [ Ingmar   ] [ Polarina] [ Soliton     ] 
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20100422 09:49:57< Ivanovic> moin
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20100422 10:47:03< Crab_> Hethrir: ai bugs ? to me, of course :)
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20100422 15:18:28< CIA-10> eleazar * r42209 /trunk/data/core/images/terrain/ (8 files): adjusted some desert plants so they weren't so vibrantly green.
20100422 15:23:30< shadowmaster> hm.
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20100422 15:41:27< zookeeper> well, that was interesting
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20100422 17:38:51< fendrin> hello
20100422 17:40:13< Espreon> fendrin: Hello.
20100422 17:42:55< fendrin> hi Espreon
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20100422 17:58:19< gabba> hi
20100422 18:04:12< Johannes13> If an enemy necromancer recalls/recruit a invisible unit (e.g. ghost with nightstalk abilty) I see the animation for the recall/recruit but I don't see the unit. But because I see the anim of the necro, I know there have to be an invisible unit
20100422 18:04:19< Johannes13> Is this intended?
20100422 18:04:26< Johannes13> I don't think so
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20100422 18:05:53< fendrin> zookeeper: Are you around?
20100422 18:05:58< zookeeper> Johannes13, no, probably not intended
20100422 18:06:01< zookeeper> fendrin, uh, yes ;)
20100422 18:06:07< fendrin> zookeeper: Cool
20100422 18:06:11< zookeeper> what do you need?
20100422 18:06:20< fendrin> zookeeper: http://gna.org/bugs/?8832
20100422 18:06:44< Johannes13> wesbot: bug #8832
20100422 18:06:44< wesbot> Bug #8832  Assigned to: None  Status: None  Priority: 5 - Normal
20100422 18:06:45< wesbot> Summary: Enabling a generic mod system
20100422 18:06:45< wesbot> Original submission: A mod == something that requires complete control over al
20100422 18:06:48< wesbot> l the WML, which is something the usual campaign/era mechanisms do not allow. Cu
20100422 18:06:51< wesbot> URL: https://gna.org/bugs/?8832
20100422 18:06:53< wesbot> Attached file (1st): https://gna.org/bugs/download.php?file_id=2183
20100422 18:07:06< fendrin> You suggest new wml syntax for the issue. 
20100422 18:07:31< fendrin> I have something in mind that avoids it and want to hear if you consider it practicable.
20100422 18:07:48< Johannes13> fendrin:should I file a bug report for that?
20100422 18:08:46< zookeeper> fendrin, sure, let's hear it..
20100422 18:09:06< fendrin> Johannes13: No idea, I must see it first before I can tell you.
20100422 18:09:24< Johannes13> I'll create a scn
20100422 18:09:45< fendrin> zookeeper: Okay, a new type of addon. Let's call it "mod" as a working name.
20100422 18:09:59< zookeeper> Johannes13, sounds like a bug to me. i think recruited units should simply be visible on that turn.
20100422 18:10:32< fendrin> That will go into .wesnoth/data/add-ons/mods if downloaded from the server.
20100422 18:10:47< zookeeper> fendrin, is this the same idea which you posted in the experimental forum?
20100422 18:10:54< fendrin> zookeeper: Yes.
20100422 18:11:10< fendrin> zookeeper: But I think that I have a more detailed view on the issue now.
20100422 18:11:33< fendrin> zookeeper: But please give your comment on the forum post first.
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20100422 18:12:19< zookeeper> fendrin, well, i don't have much to comment regarding the forum post...i don't really care which kind of interface is used for selecting the mod, which is pretty much the only difference between our suggestions
20100422 18:13:07< zookeeper> even your scheme needs some kind of a new [mod] tag or something, so that the mod selection menu can show mod-defined text and images, so it's just a question of where the files go exactly and what kind of a menu is used
20100422 18:14:09< fendrin> zookeeper: You are right. I misunderstood your feature request. It's exactly the same idea.
20100422 18:14:55< zookeeper> right :)
20100422 18:15:17< fendrin> zookeeper: Well, I start coding it right now. Do you think it can go into mainline or will it experimental only?
20100422 18:18:41< zookeeper> fendrin, i'd think that'd have a high chance of going mainline
20100422 18:19:18< fendrin> zookeeper: It seems so easy. Why has it not been done before?
20100422 18:19:33< zookeeper> it doesn't interfere with anything existing, and it's useful for mods, so i don't see why it wouldn't be fit for mainline
20100422 18:19:44< zookeeper> no one was interested in doing it, i guess?
20100422 18:19:57< fendrin> zookeeper: You can't code c++ yourself?
20100422 18:20:09< zookeeper> that's right
20100422 18:20:30< fendrin> I will do my best. Can't be that hard.
20100422 18:22:14< zookeeper> great
20100422 18:22:57< fendrin> zookeeper: Note that crab suggested a different solution that is much more versatile.
20100422 18:23:26< fendrin> It can combine several mods/conversions at the same time.
20100422 18:23:40< fendrin> But I guess I go for that simple solution first.
20100422 18:25:08< zookeeper> sounds like a good approach to me...besides, couldn't mods just use WML includes to interact with each other just like add-ons can now?
20100422 18:25:41< fendrin> zookeeper: That is the goal I am heading for. Maybe like the define system that is used for campaigns.
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20100422 18:28:56< fendrin> zookeeper: So there will be an "mods" button on the main screen like the current Campaign dialog?
20100422 18:31:26< zookeeper> fendrin, that, or my suggestion. the button is clearer but IMO it'd be nice if it wasn't available until you actually have at least one mod installed.
20100422 18:32:40< fendrin> zookeeper: Hmmm, the list will always contain "core" or "default" or "wesnoth_vanilla" or however we call current data or data/core
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20100422 18:32:56< zookeeper> or at least it should be grayed out if there are none installed; you shouldn't have a button in the title screen which looks like you can actually do something with it, if you can't..
20100422 18:33:06< zookeeper> fendrin, true
20100422 18:34:15< fendrin> zookeeper: Shall we put current data/core into it's own [mod] tag or do we want it to stay hardcoded?
20100422 18:35:17< zookeeper> better let it stay hardcoded, at least to begin with
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20100422 18:35:43< zookeeper> shouldn't be much extra work to do it like that, i'd think
20100422 18:36:30< fendrin> It is already be configurable on the commandline. What we want is basically just a gui around the commanline that chooses a different data dir, right?
20100422 18:36:48< fendrin> And support for it on the addon server.
20100422 18:37:55< zookeeper> yeah
20100422 18:37:59< zookeeper> (dinner ->)
20100422 18:50:16 * shadowmaster notices that a bunch of forum spambots have not posted.
20100422 18:51:27< shadowmaster> spammy signatures and website profile fields. Search engines can't see any of that since profile displays are allowed only for identified users.
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20100422 19:15:47< Johannes13> fendrin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com/LE1WW3Az << a test scn for the necromancer recruit bug
20100422 19:17:25< fendrin> Johannes13: Thank you.
20100422 19:17:40< Johannes13> np
20100422 19:18:06< fendrin> Johannes13: Please attach it to the bug report for the issue.
20100422 19:41:14< Johannes13> ok.
20100422 19:41:59< Johannes13> I think, there are 2 options: hide the necr anim, or show the unit for one turn
20100422 19:42:41< fendrin> Where is the gui config for the titlescreen?
20100422 19:47:53< Ivanovic> the titlescreen is not yet converted to gui2
20100422 19:48:21< Ivanovic> so I'd guess that it is somewhere in titlescreen.?pp
20100422 19:50:59-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: GSoC: Thanks to all GSoC candidates for submitting proposals to Google. Accepted student applications announced on April 26. | 94 bugs, 273 feature requests, 19 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
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20100422 20:46:49< YogiHH> hello
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20100422 20:46:57< Crab_> hi, YogiHH
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20100422 21:08:43< freim> zookeeper: ping
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20100422 21:13:13< jacob_> Hello
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20100422 21:15:56< freim> anyone who knows about terrain WML?
20100422 21:16:08< freim> I don't understand any of it anymore
20100422 21:16:40< jacob_> I dunno, I know the site has some tutorials though
20100422 21:22:25-!- wesnoth|Crab_ is now known as Crab_
20100422 21:24:09< jacob_> Hey Crab_
20100422 21:25:58< jacob_> Has anyone seen th commercial about windows 7(the on with someone snapping the edges of 2 windows together) Ubuntu does the [i]exact[/i] same thing.
20100422 21:26:11< jacob_> Only italics failed :(
20100422 21:27:26< jacob_> *the
20100422 21:27:28< Ivanovic> freim: i think boucman does know it
20100422 21:27:34< Ivanovic> but he ain't around at the moment
20100422 21:28:23< pokhbocee> Crab_: on lua website combining strings by using somestring + otherstring is possible but i get error that says attempt to perform arithmetic on local string value
20100422 21:29:04< freim> figured it out. Had some old files cluttering my trunk dirs confusing me
20100422 21:29:11< Crab_> hi, jacob_
20100422 21:29:53< jacob_> pokhbocee: Are you trying to add "text" + 1, instead of "text" + "1"
20100422 21:30:23< Crab_> pokhbocee: afair, the operator for combining strings is different, e.g.  ".."
20100422 21:30:50< Crab_> "foo" .. "bar"
20100422 21:30:59< pokhbocee> jacob_: no im doing  stringvariable+ tostring(intvariable)
20100422 21:31:04< pokhbocee> Crab_: ok ill try it
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20100422 21:32:37< zookeeper> freim, yo
20100422 21:33:01< zookeeper> freim, still need something or did you sort it all out?
20100422 21:34:02< freim> zookeeper: think I got it for now, thanks
20100422 21:34:24< zookeeper> ok
20100422 21:34:36< zookeeper> want to tell what you're working on? :P
20100422 21:35:04< freim> just playing around a bit, might become some new desert mountains
20100422 21:36:01< zookeeper> oh, cool
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20100422 21:39:38< jacob_> freim: You might become some new desert mountains?
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20100422 22:15:01< freim> zookeeper: question? what's the deal with sand vs desert these days?
20100422 22:16:22< zookeeper> freim, nothing, i guess?
20100422 22:16:35< zookeeper> what kind of a deal could there be?
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20100422 22:22:52< boucman> hey all
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20100422 22:24:41< freim> zookeeper: http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?p=423808#p423808
20100422 22:24:55< freim> made a test tile of what a new desert mountain could look like
20100422 22:25:16< freim> I must say I'm struggling with the editor in current trunk, lots of regression from a terrain dev point of view
20100422 22:25:33< _jbx_> freim: that is not bad at all, very much like the badlands i was asking for in the smae thread 
20100422 22:26:43< Blarumyrran> looks cool, but too much like a cross between ant & bee hive
20100422 22:27:57< zookeeper> mmh, yeah, if i had to give criticism on such an early test tile, i'd say it looks too much like a hive of some sort
20100422 22:28:52< zookeeper> i can't really get a picture (eh-heh) of what the final version would look like, i'm afraid
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20100422 22:53:18< Crushy> Hello
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20100422 22:54:04< Crushy_> hello
20100422 22:55:11< Ivanovic> Chusslove: https://gna.org/bugs/index.php?15934
20100422 22:55:22< Ivanovic> Chusslove: you implemented the image translation stuff, right?
20100422 22:56:18< Crushy_> eer guys, sorry to bother you with this
20100422 22:57:18< Crushy_> but I'm making a game project for some class in college, and we hit some dead end on how to do the objectives system.
20100422 22:58:22< Crushy_> So I remembered that Wesnoth's engine should be fairly similar to what we're trying to do and started studying how it all works
20100422 22:59:22< Crushy_> unfortunately, the whole objectives part seems rather confusing to us and we can't figure out where it all fits. Can someone give us some tips or point us in the right direction, please?
20100422 23:04:04< pokhbocee> Crab_: i have finished the patch  https://gna.org/patch/?1577
20100422 23:04:26< pokhbocee> Crab_: i also added few methods, which are explained in my comment 
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20100422 23:11:43< Crushy_> anyone?
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20100422 23:15:17< stikonas> Ivanovic: #15934 is impossible to do
20100422 23:15:46< stikonas> at least Chusslove told me so a few months ago
20100422 23:16:29< stikonas> text messages use some inteligent reloading that I think silene did a long time ago
20100422 23:16:41< stikonas> but probably the same does not work for images
20100422 23:22:09-!- zookeeper [~l@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has quit []
20100422 23:23:14< boucman> night all
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20100422 23:34:23< Crushy_> is no one willing to help?
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20100422 23:39:56< YogiHH> Crushy: Why did you hit that dead end? What's your major problem?
20100422 23:40:14< YogiHH> Crushy_: Why did you hit that dead end? What's your major problem?
20100422 23:40:31< Crushy_> \w
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20100422 23:42:16< Crushy_> @YogiHH : It's more of a concept problem. We are thinking about making huge hash tables and check against them everytime a movement, death, attack, etc happens
20100422 23:42:37< Crushy_> eer sorry, it's been a while since I used IRC...
20100422 23:42:45< YogiHH> np
20100422 23:43:47< Greywhind> anyone seen mordante recently?
20100422 23:43:54< Crushy_> We were just wondering how wesnoth did it, since our way is pretty much fubar
20100422 23:44:01< YogiHH> Crushy_: Wesnoth is working similar, there is an event driven check of victory conditions. However, the game engine itself knows only the loss of your leader or another must-have unit
20100422 23:44:30< YogiHH> Crushy_: Through WML however, you can define almost any victory condition
20100422 23:45:24< YogiHH> Crushy_: Not sure if that is usable for your project though, as WML is very mighty and has a very sophisticated parser
20100422 23:46:07< Crushy_> yeah, from what I can read it's pretty much how I would do it too...
20100422 23:46:31< Soliton> using "huge hash tables" is not so much a concept but the implementation. using a function check_victory() somewhere in your game loop to hide the implementation could be a concept.
20100422 23:46:49< YogiHH> Crushy_: Are you having so many different victory conditions?
20100422 23:47:05< Crushy_> The main reason I was asking is because right now our chances are to either implement something very similar or hardcode most victory conditions
20100422 23:47:26< Crushy_> yeah, it's pretty much the same as wesnoth in that regard
20100422 23:47:46< Crushy_> Losing a vital character, killing X enemies and such
20100422 23:49:54< Crushy_> taking into account we have only about a month to do it I think we're better off using something more hardcoded and finish it later...
20100422 23:50:08< Crushy_> thanks everyone :)
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--- Log closed Fri Apr 23 00:00:43 2010