--- Log opened Thu Apr 08 00:00:13 2010
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20100408 17:04:47< ilor_> hi all
20100408 17:05:44< Ivanovic> hi ilor_
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20100408 20:32:56< noy_> ilor_: around?
20100408 20:33:21< ilor_> noy_:  yes
20100408 20:33:33< noy_> got some time?
20100408 20:33:45< ilor_> yes
20100408 20:34:20< noy_> time to have a meeting ?
20100408 20:34:52< noy_> okay I assume so
20100408 20:34:54< ilor_> I should be around for ~4hrs
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20100408 20:35:12< noy_> good we're going to have a meeting then
20100408 20:35:47< mordante> will read the logs later
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20100408 20:37:11< noy_> okay
20100408 20:37:28< noy_> I was hoping we could have a discussion on priortization of the bugs
20100408 20:38:42< noy_> without jb its a bit tough but so be it
20100408 20:38:48< noy_> https://gna.org/bugs/index.php?go_report=Abschicken&group=wesnoth&func=browse&set=custom&msort=&report_id=101&advsrch=0&status_id=1&resolution_id=0&submitted_by=0&assigned_to=0&category_id=0&bug_group_id=115&severity=0&priority=0&summary=&details=&sumORdet=0&history_search=0&history_field=0&history_event=modified&history_date_dayfd=5&history_date_monthfd=4&history_date_yearfd=2010&chunksz=150&spamscore=5&boxoptionwanted=1
20100408 20:38:57< noy_> this is the list as it is now
20100408 20:39:09< noy_> (sorry for not using tinyurl
20100408 20:40:05< Crab_> noy_: we'll, I was half-joking about aliasing http://lobby-bugs.wesnoth.org to that :)
20100408 20:41:01< ilor_> I'd add sort-by-severity to that link and work from there
20100408 20:41:21< noy_> ... ilor_ its helpful if we discuss it here...
20100408 20:41:53< noy_> The main problem that got us here was that we didn't communicate at all
20100408 20:41:54< ilor_> noy_: by work from there I mean discuss from there and reprioretize ;)
20100408 20:42:07< noy_> Oh, sorry...
20100408 20:42:38< noy_> I thought you were being all antisocial like :p
20100408 20:42:46< noy_> I was like... sorry1
20100408 20:42:47< noy_> !
20100408 20:42:51< ilor_> :P
20100408 20:42:57< noy_> anyway... I think this was one of the worst bugs...
20100408 20:42:58< noy_> https://gna.org/bugs/index.php?15764
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20100408 20:43:17< ilor_> yeah it's highly annoying
20100408 20:43:31< noy_> I think its probably the most critical fixes at this time
20100408 20:44:00< ilor_> it's also annoying to work with because, unsurprisingly, I don't call "scroll_to_top" anywhere, it happens because of something that happens somewhere else
20100408 20:44:08< noy_> Right...
20100408 20:44:26 * shadowmaster notes that the tinyurlified URL is in the topic
20100408 20:44:28< noy_> I was considering when we should discuss GUI refinements
20100408 20:44:35< noy_> thanks shadowmaster :p
20100408 20:44:51< shadowmaster> Soliton put it there, I only requested the URL ^^
20100408 20:45:10< noy_> The gui refinements might effect later bugs
20100408 20:45:17< noy_> err eralier
20100408 20:45:28< ilor_> go on
20100408 20:46:17 * shadowmaster will read the logs later too, he must attend to a test
20100408 20:46:42< _jbx_> if the autoscrolling problem alone gets fixed, that will buy enough time for the other bugs to get fixed at a normal pace.  Since autoscrolling makes chatting, finding players, and joining games difficult for the user.  All of which are the basic purpose of the lobby.   Basically the same thing I said yesterday before ilor_ was here.
20100408 20:46:58< ilor_> _jbx_: noted
20100408 20:47:35< noy_> would it be possible to make an interim fix ilor_ we fix #15764 and a couple of other ones in the next weeks
20100408 20:47:40< mordante> ilor_, it happens due to screen resizing
20100408 20:47:57< noy_> then we work on the other issues later
20100408 20:48:16< mordante> but maybe we need to force a scroll to end for chat log
20100408 20:48:40< noy_> mordante: what about fixing everything in place?
20100408 20:48:41< ilor_> mordante: as far as I can tell it happens far more often than when the screen resizes
20100408 20:49:29< shadowmaster> same here.
20100408 20:49:40< mordante> noy_, we can't the whole gui2 design is about adapting to the screen size
20100408 20:49:43< shadowmaster> it isn't even dependent on when the vertical or horizontal scrollbar apper
20100408 20:49:48< shadowmaster> *scrollbars
20100408 20:49:52< noy_> I see
20100408 20:51:08< noy_> So mordante ilor_ crab, what about getting an "interim" fix version out
20100408 20:51:27< noy_> that just gets the basic fixes out
20100408 20:51:41< noy_> we identify maybe 3~4 bugs
20100408 20:51:53< happygrue> mordante: and on my widescreen monitor it does a pretty good job at that I think - I don't have much in the wya of scrollbar issues
20100408 20:52:06< happygrue> I agree that the scrolling to the tob is the killer ATM
20100408 20:52:23< happygrue> both for chat and for games
20100408 20:52:33< happygrue> though you can filter games by friends, which makes it doable
20100408 20:52:37< happygrue> *useable
20100408 20:52:48< happygrue> (if people realize to do that)
20100408 20:53:17< noy_> the critical ones... we get it out soon and then work on a lobby plan to streamline the gui and other smaller annoying bug fixes
20100408 20:54:16< mordante> ilor_, I think it also may happen when new text is added to the widget
20100408 20:54:46< happygrue> perhaps we should also change the MotD to include "watch for a bug-fix release soon" or something
20100408 20:55:03< mordante> noy_, I've to see the scrollbars are probably quite nasty to fix
20100408 20:55:55< noy_> and if we make gui adjustments we'd do it all again?
20100408 20:58:07< mordante> ?
20100408 21:01:24< noy_> well ilor said that if we fixed this problem, and made adjustments to the lobby UI, then the scrolling problem would reemerge
20100408 21:04:49< mordante> probably yes like I said the scrolling is probably somewhat hard to fix
20100408 21:05:27< mordante> and it also doesn't help the playerlist is recreated by destroying everything and then rebuild all, at which point I've no idea what was selected before
20100408 21:05:47< mordante> but I can see whether I can come up with some hack
20100408 21:06:08< noy_> it might be worthwhile to revert functionality to the old version?
20100408 21:07:51< Crab_> mordante: well, can we get a list of what's currently visible ?
20100408 21:08:16< Crab_> mordante: and try to keep it on screen, even if it would violate ordering
20100408 21:13:20< mordante> Crab_, I'm also thinking in that direction, just need to look how to implement it
20100408 21:13:41< mordante> noy_, I'm not really in the mood to revert to the old lobby
20100408 21:13:57< noy_> oh I guess you're not with silene then?
20100408 21:14:00< noy_> :p
20100408 21:14:08< mordante> I spend a lot of time to get it working for 1.8
20100408 21:14:18< mordante> so if we revert it now I wasted a lot of time
20100408 21:14:36< noy_> I was more talking about the playerlist
20100408 21:15:05< mordante> which I also spend a lot of time on :-(
20100408 21:15:30< mordante> but I need some time to look at the listbox and see what's possible
20100408 21:16:30< noy_> forgive me for my ignorance, I know you said that gui2 is movable for resizing right?
20100408 21:16:51< happygrue> mordante:  I think the features in the new lobby are really great - I imagine it to be a grand improvement when things are all smoothed out.  :)
20100408 21:16:55< noy_> Why can't we assigned fixed proportions for stuff when they are in a certain size?
20100408 21:17:10< _jbx_> mordante: reverting to the old lobby need not be a waste, it only need be a placeholder until the bugs are fixed?
20100408 21:17:24< noy_> _jbx_: its not going to happen
20100408 21:17:52< _jbx_> mordante: i know you put a lot of time into it, but if it's not working properly, then what's the point anyway
20100408 21:19:24< mordante> _jbx_, that if things get reverted there's no reason to work on it
20100408 21:19:55< mordante> thanks happygrue
20100408 21:20:46< mordante> noy_, since whole gui2 doesn't have the power to get fixed sizes, that's part of the design philosophy
20100408 21:21:12< noy_> so things are going to bounce around all the time?
20100408 21:21:13< mordante> noy_, the old gui has fixed sizes and widgets can get out of their dialog which is ugly
20100408 21:21:30< mordante> the new gui uses scrollbars instead
20100408 21:22:11< mordante> yes/no it will adapt when things don't fit, the problem is that the listboxes can't resize their content properly in all cases
20100408 21:22:19< mordante> and at the moment too often
20100408 21:23:04< noy_> Whats you're guess about this scroll behavior problem?
20100408 21:23:08< noy_> for the time frame?
20100408 21:25:36< mordante> I need to think about that and see what's possible can't answer that right now
20100408 21:26:54< noy_> okay..
20100408 21:27:11< mordante> the biggest problem that the lobby is the first dynamic dialog converted to gui2
20100408 21:27:32< mordante> which shows some parts that need more engineering
20100408 21:27:38< noy_> well given the problems we're having here, is it prudent to add it to other aresa
20100408 21:27:40< noy_> areas?
20100408 21:27:44< noy_> https://gna.org/bugs/index.php?15772
20100408 21:27:55< mordante> all other dialogs before only updated their content upon creation
20100408 21:27:59< noy_> is this really just another example of the previous one?
20100408 21:28:09< ilor_> noy_: it's all the same
20100408 21:28:34< ilor_> noy this is likely a side effect of one workaround to the scrolling problem
20100408 21:28:43< mordante> yup
20100408 21:29:53< noy_> Okay... can I make a couple of gui suggestions right now to think about?
20100408 21:30:11< ilor_> sure
20100408 21:30:21< noy_> maybe it might be easier to include now so you don't have to do double the work
20100408 21:30:34< noy_> The buttons on the top right should go along the top as they were
20100408 21:31:16< noy_> its actually kind of difficult to be scrolling across the screen to get to them
20100408 21:31:34< noy_> you use the filter, which is 2/3rds along the bottom
20100408 21:31:44< noy_> then you select a game which is near the top
20100408 21:31:57< noy_> then you press observe or something else, which is on the right hand corner
20100408 21:32:10< noy_> placing it near the top would make it easier to use
20100408 21:36:38< noy_> I think also having more space for the player list might be a good idea
20100408 21:36:58< noy_> so by moving the game controls to the top, you can extend the player list
20100408 21:37:39< ilor_> theoretically this could be done right now by some clever movements in the WML
20100408 21:42:06< happygrue> I would be fine with buttons along the top, as it seems like better use of space.  I'm not sure if it is more intuative (how many new players used to ask where "create game" was?), but I prefer it that way
20100408 21:42:40< mordante> ilor_, are you going to make that change?
20100408 21:42:44< happygrue> also:  I would suggest that the player list should by default show the lobby first, then selected game then other games.
20100408 21:42:56< happygrue> that is, lobby is open when a player logs on
20100408 21:43:14< happygrue> then selected game tab is under that, followed by other game tab
20100408 21:43:20< ilor_> mordante: not now but I think I will over the weekend, maybe tomorrow
20100408 21:44:11< happygrue> my reasoning is that when you log on the first game is selected and you see whatever players are in that game - which is not usually what a player wants to see
20100408 21:44:32< happygrue> so their first action would be to open the lobby tab, and also to probably close the selected game tab
20100408 21:44:46< ilor_> happygrue: that sound reasonable, and also keeps the related selected game / other games tabs close
20100408 21:44:49< happygrue> s/tab/arrow/ or whatever
20100408 21:44:51< happygrue> yes
20100408 21:45:46< mordante> ilor_, ok
20100408 21:52:30< mordante> I'm off night
20100408 21:52:31< _jbx_> the player list also doesn't need drop boxes, all 3 categories could be combined, as they used to be with the color coded system.  Each time you exit a game you need to reopen the drop boxes for the player list.
20100408 21:55:57< happygrue> night mordante
20100408 21:57:29< happygrue> _jbx_: I like having most of the list hidden by default
20100408 21:58:27< happygrue> though ideally having the boxes remember if they should be open or closed would be nice, I think most players will want to hid users in games
20100408 21:58:58< happygrue> with the filtering of friends you can look through games of interest pretty well I think
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20100408 22:00:46< ilor_> happygrue: remembering the status is a good idea, please make it a lobby FR in the tracker
20100408 22:02:05< ilor_> _jbx_: the problem I had with the color-coded system was that it wasn't very clear for someone new
20100408 22:02:47< happygrue> ilor_: assign it to you?
20100408 22:03:01< ilor_> happygrue: yeah
20100408 22:03:50< shadowmaster> ilor_: where is it explained what each icon in the lobby means?
20100408 22:04:49< ilor_> shadowmaster: theoretically there should be tooltips. some are missing iirc
20100408 22:05:05< shadowmaster> hm.
20100408 22:05:10< happygrue> shadowmaster: some are there
20100408 22:05:14< happygrue> which are you looking at?
20100408 22:06:46< shadowmaster> at the green one
20100408 22:07:07< shadowmaster> well, the green one that has ... does it represent FoW status?
20100408 22:07:15< ilor_> shadowmaster: yes
20100408 22:08:23< happygrue> ilor_: done
20100408 22:08:26< happygrue> https://gna.org/bugs/index.php?15826
20100408 22:08:49< _jbx_> ilor_: fair enough.  I still think the dropboxes create extra clicks for the user, and actually hinder finding players more than helping
20100408 22:09:37< happygrue> ilor_: currently filter doesn't allow searches of games that contain a certian player right?
20100408 22:09:39< happygrue> it seems not to
20100408 22:10:06< happygrue> for example:  I want to find a game that some guy that I think started with Abc
20100408 22:10:10< shadowmaster> I ask for permission to talk freely
20100408 22:10:16< happygrue> so I filter for Abc* to find the game he is in?
20100408 22:10:33< ilor_> _jbx_: tbh the original idea was to just add little words of explanation between the colored groups
20100408 22:10:36< ilor_> shadowmaster: ?
20100408 22:10:39< happygrue> that might be nice too (while I'm just dreaming of stuff)
20100408 22:10:52< shadowmaster> wouldn't it have been better to build wesnoth with qt+opengl from the start? :P
20100408 22:11:36 * happygrue off for a while
20100408 22:12:12< shadowmaster> the more I use Wesnoth, the more strange its UI feels to me in general.
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--- Log closed Fri Apr 09 00:00:21 2010