--- Log opened Fri May 07 00:00:06 2010
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20100507 00:08:43< fakedrake> hello all
20100507 00:08:51< Crab_> hi, fakedrake
20100507 00:09:38< fakedrake> can someone explain to me roughly how the ai works, i think i have it all wrong...
20100507 00:09:49< fakedrake> Crab_ i gues you can help
20100507 00:10:14< Crab_> firstly, we need to get the ai configuration from WML
20100507 00:10:52< Crab_> it is either already in [side][ai], or is injected there (e.g., depending on the ai that user selects on the game creation screen)
20100507 00:11:37< Crab_> in either case, just after we create team, we get that config and start 'parsing' it
20100507 00:12:27< Crab_> see src/team.cpp, team_info::team_info
20100507 00:12:30< Crab_> and manager::add_ai_for_side_from_config
20100507 00:13:20< Crab_> we store that parsed&prepared config, and, on first access to the ai (for example, on the start of first ai turn) we 'initialize' it, creating C++ objects from that config
20100507 00:13:36< Crab_> see holder::init in src/ai/manager.cpp
20100507 00:14:56< Crab_> see it, it's important. http://wesnoth.pastebin.com/4rs6EkEf
20100507 00:15:20< Crab_> basically, we create a group of 'support objects', one by one
20100507 00:15:34< Crab_> each 'next' support object contains previous one
20100507 00:16:03< Crab_> those 'support objects' are called 'contexts', since all ai code is 'in context' of those objects
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20100507 00:16:41< Crab_> they are in src/ai/contexts.cpp,   src/ai/default/contexts.cpp,  src/ai/composite/context.cpp
20100507 00:17:06< Crab_> side_context just holds the side number
20100507 00:17:26< Crab_> readonly_context holds all the 'basic information' that the ai has about the game state
20100507 00:18:08< Crab_> see src/ai/game_info.hpp for a list - map, units, teams, time of day, etc
20100507 00:18:35< fakedrake> gold is coming out of your keyboard, all that would dozens of hours of me reading code
20100507 00:19:28< Crab_> also, readonly_context contains derived information such as movement maps (who can move where - that info is calculated from the 'basic' info) and two classes of ai components - aspects and goals
20100507 00:20:13< Crab_> 'aspects' are containers for well-known ai parameters like aggression, avoided locations, caution, recruitment_pattern
20100507 00:20:43< Crab_> goals are c++ representations of things like 'protect this location' and 'target those units'
20100507 00:21:03< Crab_> (they are used in movement and targeting phase of the turn to determine where to move units)
20100507 00:21:36< Crab_> to parse those components, we firstly find a suitable 'factory' which will parse a config into a c++ object
20100507 00:22:12< Crab_> those factories are called 'engines' and their sole purpose is to allow ai components such as goals and aspects to be written in different languages, such as c++, formula ai, and lua.
20100507 00:22:14< fakedrake> "components" being the aspects and the goals right?
20100507 00:22:17< Crab_> yes
20100507 00:22:25< fakedrake> \cool
20100507 00:22:31< Crab_> see src/ai/composite/engine* for them
20100507 00:23:30< Crab_> so, if we got a component config, we 'peek' into it, find the engine= part, and if it's not set or equals to "cpp", we pass that config to c++ engine, else if it has engine=fai, we pass that config to formula ai engine, else if it has engine=lua, we pass it to lua engine.
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20100507 00:24:47< Crab_> on receiving the config, engine does its 'factory' work and returns a c++ wrapper which 'behaves like a goal' or 'behaves like an aspect' - so, the rest of the code can use it without worrying for the language in which it is implemented.
20100507 00:25:22< Crab_> so, to repeat, readonly_context contains derived information such as movement maps and two classes of ai components - aspects and goals. it creates the necessary engines to create those components.
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20100507 00:26:17< Crab_> then, readwrite_context contains functions to do ai actions (which are defined in src/ai/actions.?pp) - movement/attack/recall/recruit routines which actually add things to replay, change the game state
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20100507 00:28:17< Crab_> then, default_ai_context contains some helper functions which are used by the ai, like count_free_hexes_in_castle, find_targets, rate_terrain. generally, it is the leftovers of old default ai and will gradually be moved elsewhere
20100507 00:28:40< Crab_> then, the ai_composite is created. see src/ai/composite/ai.cpp 
20100507 00:29:21< Crab_> ai_composite is AI whose turn sequence is a collection of parts called stages.
20100507 00:29:48< Crab_> so, it contains a new type of ai component, called 'stage'. it also uses engines to create them, so stages can be written in c++, formula_ai, or lua.
20100507 00:30:13< Crab_> a stage is just C++ object which represents a part of AI turn, with a single method do_play_stage() which plays it
20100507 00:31:00< Crab_> a stage is in context of ai_composite, which is in context of default_ai_context, which is in context of readwrite_context which is in context of readonly_context which is in context of side_context.
20100507 00:31:19< Crab_> so, if you, say, write a C++ stage, you have access to all the info in all those contexts.
20100507 00:31:30< Crab_> so, you can get info about the game state, do moves/attack/etc.
20100507 00:32:06< Crab_> you can write an entire ai using stages.
20100507 00:33:34< Crab_> but, stage-based ai has a problem - if you have, say stages 'recruit' and 'move', you do all the recruits first, and then all the moves first. but, if your keep is full, you do no recruits and then do moves, but don't return to recruit stage this turn (as it's over).
20100507 00:34:25< fakedrake> so the default cpp ai being used is in the ai/default directory
20100507 00:34:27< fakedrake> ?
20100507 00:34:45< Crab_> fakedrake: it used to be. now it's deleted :)
20100507 00:34:58< Crab_> so, to solve that 'stages are not enough' problem, we have one stage which is 'special', it is called 'candidate action evaluation loop stage' and contains components called 'candidate actions' (those, too, are parsed by ai engines, so they can be written in c++/formula ai/lua )
20100507 00:35:26< Crab_> it is in src/ai/testing/stage_rca.?pp
20100507 00:35:55< Crab_> it does a turn slightly differently
20100507 00:36:36< Crab_> see http://wiki.wesnoth.org/Customizing_AI_in_Wesnoth_1.8#Working_with_main_loop_of_the_RCA_AI
20100507 00:37:01< Crab_> (read the text description of candidate action evaluation loop in there)
20100507 00:37:53< Crab_> so, to code an ai, we code a group of components such as aspects, goals, stages, and candidate actions
20100507 00:38:10< Crab_> there is an API to add/remove those components from the ai 'on the fly', via [modify_ai] wml tag
20100507 00:38:46< Crab_> current trunk AI is implemented as a group of candidate actions, most of them is in src/ai/testing/ca.cpp
20100507 00:39:09< Crab_> that's, basically, all :)
20100507 00:39:14< fakedrake> cool!
20100507 00:39:21< fakedrake> thank you sooo much
20100507 00:39:26< fakedrake> you are awesome
20100507 00:39:29< fakedrake> btw
20100507 00:40:12< fakedrake> you could be making wikis out of this kind of descriptions
20100507 00:40:20< fakedrake> just in case someone asks again
20100507 00:40:23< Crab_> :)
20100507 00:40:27< Crab_> yes, a good idea :)
20100507 00:46:48< Crab_> (added it to the end of that wiki page)
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20100507 01:07:25< AI0867> Crab_: I think it was more readable in IRC format
20100507 01:07:32< AI0867> now it's just a wall of text
20100507 01:07:44< Crab_> AI0867: yes, it needs editing
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20100507 01:50:59-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: 99 bugs, 276 feature requests, 15 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
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20100507 03:02:04< noy> who is greg boggs?
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20100507 03:19:15< CIA-10> espreon * r42512 /branches/1.8/ (133 files in 31 dirs): 
20100507 03:19:15< CIA-10> Ran wesnoth-optipng:
20100507 03:19:15< CIA-10> Overall statistics (only for files with a smaller recompressed size):
20100507 03:19:15< CIA-10> Original size: 4993 KiB on 133 files
20100507 03:19:15< CIA-10> Optimized size: 4948 KiB
20100507 03:19:16< CIA-10> Total saving: 45 KiB = 0% decrease
20100507 03:20:45< CIA-10> eleazar * r42513 /trunk/ (8 files in 4 dirs): 
20100507 03:20:45< CIA-10> created new editor group: ?\226?\128?\152embellishments?\226?\128?\153, and
20100507 03:20:45< CIA-10> added desert plants to that group. This means cacti and so forth no longer
20100507 03:20:45< CIA-10> automatically appear on the desert. They must be added by hand where they are
20100507 03:20:45< CIA-10> wanted (weather over sand or any other base terrain).
20100507 03:23:03< CIA-10> espreon * r42514 /trunk/changelog: 'Fixed' a couple of corrupted characters.
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20100507 03:30:44< CIA-10> espreon * r42515 /trunk/images/buttons/ (4 files): 
20100507 03:30:44< CIA-10> Ran wesnoth-optipng:
20100507 03:30:44< CIA-10> Overall statistics (only for files with a smaller recompressed size):
20100507 03:30:44< CIA-10> Original size: 14 KiB on 4 files
20100507 03:30:44< CIA-10> Optimized size: 4 KiB
20100507 03:30:45< CIA-10> Total saving: 9 KiB = 68% decrease
20100507 03:45:31< CIA-10> espreon * r42516 /trunk/data/core/terrain.cfg: Gave the desert plants overlay its own id; fixed capitalization in its translatable string.
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20100507 07:25:12< freim> noy: am I right to assume that there is no point in discussion this grant thing on the mlist anymore?
20100507 07:25:17< freim> discussing*
20100507 07:25:37< noy> well it depends friem
20100507 07:26:05< noy> If its useful constructive criticism, sure. But stuff like what Greg was going on about, no. 
20100507 07:26:18< noy> alternatively you can raise your points here to me
20100507 07:26:19< freim> I had a hard time following his train of though
20100507 07:26:51< noy> Well he's just argued against anything lately he doesn't like, and I don't know who he is. 
20100507 07:27:11< freim> don't get me wrong, I like the grant proposal
20100507 07:27:14< noy> Like a few months ago I proposed looping maps, as a fun UMC idea
20100507 07:27:26< noy> he was vehemently against it.
20100507 07:27:36< freim> I don't like that it apparently is meant to have no structure or clear goals
20100507 07:28:01< noy> Its supposed to
20100507 07:28:05< noy> thats a part of it
20100507 07:28:18< noy> though its supposed to be somewhat looser than GSOC. 
20100507 07:28:50< freim> it was the do whatever they want comment I reacted to
20100507 07:29:16< noy> well I think its more that we're not looking for specific items, like with GSOC
20100507 07:29:33< noy> we're not listing 5 or so things we want
20100507 07:29:56< freim> that together with lets define it away then no one will think of it as a monetary incentive rubs me the wrong way
20100507 07:30:01< noy> more like they propose something, we consider it, and then structure it. 
20100507 07:30:16< noy> Does that make sense?
20100507 07:30:35< freim> yes
20100507 07:30:44< noy> LEts say we get six proposals
20100507 07:31:14< noy> we'll judge it based on what is best for our program (combined with what is likely the most achievable)
20100507 07:31:55< noy> So I think what you want we'll have
20100507 07:32:20< noy> just it won't be nearly as stringent as gsoc, partly because its not going to be new students applying. 
20100507 07:32:38< noy> and those requirements wouldn't be as useful anyways
20100507 07:32:39< freim> alright, I got a different impression from some of the emails
20100507 07:33:03< noy> Well I think its a balance.
20100507 07:33:16< noy> certain;y its not going to be a free for all where we throw around money
20100507 07:33:43< noy> It will have structure where there are deadlines and objectives
20100507 07:34:19< noy> just that it won't be like gsoc where a student has to lay out a timetable and that we check if they reach each milestone
20100507 07:35:01< freim> ok, sounds all good then
20100507 07:35:14< noy> more like they will propose what they want to do, and the objectives. We might give half the money right off the bat (or 25%) and then at the end, or maybe with one milestone between them. 
20100507 07:35:31< noy> freim: one last thing
20100507 07:36:03< noy> what we're trying to avoid is having to have a major requirement for administrative overhead; because most of that will go to gsoc.
20100507 07:36:17< noy> We might need some for a women's grant, but we'll see. 
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20100507 07:43:09< freim> noy: thanks for the clarification. Off to work, later
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20100507 09:39:50< Crab___> wesbot: seen kevg
20100507 09:39:50< wesbot> Crab___: The person with the nick kevg last spoke 18h 49m ago.  18h 49m ago they left with the message:
20100507 09:42:58< Crab___> kevg: The patch is committed. note that I'm away for a week, so if you want to fix some more bugs, ask around on IRC.  you can try taking a look at https://gna.org/bugs/?15889 or https://gna.org/bugs/?15781
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20100507 09:50:20< Ivanovic> moin
20100507 10:00:23< gamefreak264> Do translators/addon developers often frequent this channel?
20100507 10:03:00< Ivanovic> addon devs tend to be in the chan for those
20100507 10:03:11< Ivanovic> something like #wesnoth-umc-dev or the likes
20100507 10:04:04< Ivanovic> some translators tend to be in here, yeah
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20100507 10:14:22< timotei> hello fendrin.
20100507 10:14:26< timotei> I am here now
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20100507 12:28:01< timotei> well... no success. still no sound.
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20100507 12:55:38< CIA-10> loonycyborg * r42517 /trunk/packaging/windows/ (SConscript Wesnoth.nsi.in): NSIS script: automatically generate version number for name of userdata dir.
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20100507 14:11:57< CIA-10> loonycyborg * r42518 /branches/1.8/packaging/windows/ (SConscript Wesnoth.nsi.in): NSIS script: automatically generate version number for name of userdata dir.
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20100507 14:21:23< fendrin> hi timotei
20100507 14:21:33< timotei> hello fendrin
20100507 14:21:57< fendrin> timotei: How are things going?
20100507 14:24:54< timotei> fendrin: well at last finished some "stupid" project for school, and starting to work on wesnoth
20100507 14:25:11< timotei> and getting used with python so I can modify the wmllint script
20100507 14:25:38< timotei> right now I'm "fixing" some things Crab_ told me to do on the wesnoth's code base, so it can be commited
20100507 14:26:18< timotei> and, the most cool thing is I finished installing linux will everything I need for dev-ing on wesnoth, and it's coller than windows
20100507 14:26:25< timotei> KDevelop worked from start:D
20100507 14:27:15< timotei> I plan to finish this weekend that preprocessing thingy, so next week I can start implemented the wizards
20100507 14:27:17< timotei> is that ok?
20100507 14:40:29< fendrin> timotei: The python part with wmllint can be done by esr, maybe. It depends on sending him a correct specification of the syntax that is used.
20100507 14:41:54< fendrin> timotei: Compiling wesnoth should work from start as well, more or less. What linux did you install?
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20100507 15:10:03< timotei> fendrin: sabayon :)
20100507 15:10:05< timotei> +kde
20100507 15:10:22< fendrin> That is debian based? 
20100507 15:11:02< timotei> gentoo based
20100507 15:11:22< fendrin> Ah okay. Then compiling wesnoth shouldn't be a problem :-)
20100507 15:11:36< timotei> yes :D
20100507 15:11:48< timotei> and afair KDevelop is very nice/cool.
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20100507 15:49:51< timotei> mhh, anyone knows why "git svn rebase" is giving me: 
20100507 15:49:58< timotei> src/game.cpp: needs update
20100507 15:50:00< timotei> ?
20100507 15:50:04< timotei> and so on, for different files?
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20100507 15:51:48< loonycyborg> timotei: That looks familiar to me, iirc that happens when you have uncommitted local changes.
20100507 15:52:05< timotei> loonycyborg: oh, ok
20100507 15:52:22< timotei> I used git fetch -rHEAD then :P
20100507 15:52:42< timotei> and that works:D
20100507 15:56:17< freim> git is very good at giving error messages that holds no clue whatsoever to what is wrong
20100507 16:02:01< Soliton> timotei: note that fetch will not get the changes in your local tracking branch. just use stash if you want to rebase in the middle of your work.
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20100507 16:02:48< timotei> Soliton: oh, didn't know that. so if I have game.cpp modified, and there is an update, it won't be updated?:(
20100507 16:03:44< Soliton> git will not mess with your checkout if you have uncommitted changes, yes.
20100507 16:03:57< timotei> ok, then I'll take a  look into stash
20100507 16:04:38< Soliton> or just finish your work and commit your changes. ;-)
20100507 16:04:54< timotei> Soliton: I can't commit yet :P
20100507 16:05:20< Soliton> why not?
20100507 16:05:38< timotei> well, the "changes" are not completed :D
20100507 16:05:43< loonycyborg> You can commit now and commit --amend later
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20100507 16:06:51< Soliton> also commit doen't mean you have to push it to svn.
20100507 16:07:01< timotei> yes, I know
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20100507 16:11:47< timotei> ok, stashed my things. If I use svn rebase, (even though I git svn fetch -rHEAD some minutes ago), will it update the "stashed" files?
20100507 16:12:35< loonycyborg> stash removes changes from working copy.
20100507 16:13:00< loonycyborg> It'll merge them when you'll apply the stash back.
20100507 16:13:48< timotei> loonycyborg: so, practically, let's say, I was at, rev 1000, and started changing files...
20100507 16:13:57< timotei> in the meantime used fetch up to rev 104
20100507 16:14:11< timotei> stashed my changes, the working dir will be at rev 104, including the files I changed?
20100507 16:14:29< timotei> or the changed files blocked every update 
20100507 16:15:33< Soliton> rebase will get the remote changes to your local branch.
20100507 16:17:29< loonycyborg> If you have commits that you didn't dcommit yet git svn rebase will merge them but if you have uncommitted changes git svn rebase will just refuse to work.
20100507 16:18:15< Soliton> s/merge them/apply them back on top/
20100507 16:19:05< loonycyborg> And fetch will not affect working copy in any way. You'll need to git svn rebase in any case.
20100507 16:23:14-!- billynux [~c8078d05@wesnoth/developer/billynux] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
20100507 16:24:09< timotei> oops, looks I bugged my working copy :))
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20100507 16:33:47< timotei> ha, fixed it. I love git
20100507 16:40:28< timotei> hmm... if I have a "full" command version (-preprocess <arguments> ), when I put the short one (--p) should I write that it requires some arguments too? or is it understood by default?
20100507 16:42:10< CIA-10> eleazar * r42519 /trunk/data/campaigns/Heir_To_The_Throne/maps/ (8 files): updated several HttT maps to use new terrain aliases-- no change to movement and defense.
20100507 16:44:49< CIA-10> eleazar * r42520 /trunk/ (4 files in 2 dirs): quick enhancement to snow.
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20100507 17:59:21< norbert_> hi, I have a quick question, because I'm lazy: is there already a feature request to add a reason (string) for putting people on ignore?
20100507 18:00:47< norbert_> I want to be able to add a reason, so next time I know I can forgive someone being an asshole or not
20100507 18:01:18< norbert_> there are various degrees of ignore in my book
20100507 18:02:03< AI0867> there is no such feature request yet
20100507 18:02:29< AI0867> and the ignore/friend system is just two lists of nicknames
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20100507 18:03:58< norbert_> ok
20100507 18:04:08< norbert_> I will add a feature request for it then
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20100507 18:23:19< timotei> hey Ivanovic
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20100507 18:28:26< Ivanovic> hi timotei
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20100507 19:17:41< CIA-10> ai0867 * r42521 /trunk/utils/indexed2rgb.sh: On failure, delete temporary images
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20100507 20:11:56< YogiHH> hello
20100507 20:12:24< shadowmaster> hi there
20100507 20:14:56< billynux> hi
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20100507 20:39:49< gabba> bonjour
20100507 20:40:21< YogiHH> moin, moin, gabba :)
20100507 20:40:36< gabba> hi YogiHH :)
20100507 20:41:16< Espreon> gabba: Ic grete þe.
20100507 20:41:45< gabba> hi Espreon
20100507 20:42:18< gabba> regional and historical greetings galore :P
20100507 20:42:25< shadowmaster> buenas tardes
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20100507 20:43:51< gabba> buenas tardes shadowmaster, que tal?
20100507 20:47:06< YogiHH> ilor_: Is there something like a tooltip for gui2 WML widgets?
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20100507 20:56:07< ilor_>  YogiHH: there is *something*...
20100507 20:56:26< ilor_> can't remember atm, maybe the mp_method_selection dialog has something
20100507 20:56:37< YogiHH> ilor_: ok, i will have a look at that
20100507 21:10:15< YogiHH> mordante: Gui2 improvement suggestion: Don't crash if WML defines a widget that is not present in the C++ dialog class ;-)
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20100507 21:24:18< YogiHH> ilor_: Is it possible to have to widgets in one Gui2 grid cell?
20100507 21:24:27< YogiHH> two widgets
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20100507 22:21:19< YogiHH> night everyone
20100507 22:21:26< Espreon> Goodnight.
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20100507 23:21:06< Deiz> I was just remembering the Great War era from a ways back (1.5.x?)
20100507 23:21:18< Deiz> What was the rationale for removing it? Unmaintained? Imbalanced? Underused?
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20100507 23:42:14< Hulavuta> Hello?
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20100507 23:42:57< Espreon> ...
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20100507 23:51:21< zookeeper> Deiz, all of those, plus the fact that it was just silly
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--- Log closed Sat May 08 00:00:12 2010