--- Log opened Mon May 10 00:00:24 2010
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20100510 02:42:54< AI0867> crab: is there a way to smack some sense into an AI that is convinced unit A is awesome and recruits it every time it gets to recruit from that category? (other than writing my own recruiting action)
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20100510 03:04:51< shadowmaster> mordante: have you checked the "in scenario dialog" point in http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=423254#p423254 ?
20100510 03:05:43< shadowmaster> just pointing it out to you since IIRC you don't read the Developers' forum much
20100510 03:06:02< shadowmaster> (not that there was much activity at all before Eleazar returned...)
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20100510 06:17:11< Mel-nix> Is it true that wesnoth requires an older version of libpng, in order to compile?
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20100510 06:24:26< Mel-nix> Is it true that wesnoth requires an older version of libpng, in order to compile?
20100510 06:30:27< Mel-nix> Anyone?
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20100510 06:36:12< Espreon> Mel-nix: Where did you hear that?
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20100510 06:44:14< ancestral> There was talk a while back about decreasing the Mage's required XP to level 2 by a few points, but I don't think that was ever done.
20100510 06:48:14< Mel-nix> Espreon: http://pastebin.org/216175
20100510 06:48:38< ancestral> Ah I see a post from May 7… never mind then, I'll patiently wait :)
20100510 06:49:20< Mel-nix> Espreon: I get that error when building v.1.8*.
20100510 06:50:43< Espreon> Mel-nix: Meh, I wouldn't know; wait till it's day in Europe; then come back.
20100510 06:51:41< Mel-nix> Espreon: Have you tried building that version?
20100510 06:53:58< Espreon> Well, the latest revision of 1.8 builds fine for me.
20100510 06:54:35< Mel-nix> Espreon: Against which version of libpng are you compiling?
20100510 06:54:53< Espreon> 1.2.43
20100510 06:55:56< Mel-nix> Espreon: I am compiling against libpng-1.4.2.
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20100510 06:57:44< Espreon> Mel-nix: Hmmmm, that's masked here... so... yeahz...
20100510 06:58:09< Espreon> ... well... no keyword enables it... but... whatever.
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20100510 07:03:05< Espreon> ... and now I shall leave...
20100510 07:10:48< Mel-nix> Espreon: So isn't it a bug?
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20100510 09:55:13< Ivanovic> moin
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20100510 10:41:15< FAAB> I have been reading some code and tried to make a change in file src/multiplayer_lobby.cpp when I realized it is not compiled
20100510 10:41:41< FAAB> is this file obsolete ? if yes, where is the new version of this code ?
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20100510 11:14:32 * FAAB thinks it must be in src/gui/dialogs/lobby*
20100510 11:15:39< Ivanovic> FAAB: at least in branches/1.8 we got two lobbys
20100510 11:15:45< Ivanovic> once being the old one and the other the new one
20100510 11:15:56< Ivanovic> the old one is src/multiplayer_lobby* IIRC
20100510 11:16:10< Ivanovic> the new one is somewhere in the other folders
20100510 11:16:41< Ivanovic> and at least in trunk i got no multiplayer_lobby.cpp!
20100510 11:16:52< Ivanovic> yes, svn should take care of file removal, too (at least over here it does)
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20100510 11:18:18< FAAB> Ivanovic: you are right, it is all local files which are left up
20100510 11:19:14< FAAB> would it be my subversion that is not well configured ?
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20100510 11:20:34< Ivanovic> have you had changes in the files?
20100510 11:20:41< Ivanovic> yes, a conflict might stop it from removing files
20100510 11:20:47< Ivanovic> which OS are you using?
20100510 11:20:55< Ivanovic> svn might behave completely different on windows
20100510 11:45:03< FAAB> Ivanovic: nope the files were changed when they were already local (I am on gnu/linux)
20100510 11:46:13< FAAB> Ivanovic: I will make a web search myself in a while to find the problem
20100510 11:47:56< FAAB> that new gui is awesome, I got a new button shown in less than an hour :)
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20100510 18:43:28< fendrin> hello timotei
20100510 18:43:35< timotei> hello fendrin 
20100510 18:44:37< fendrin> timotei: Do you need me right now?
20100510 18:44:49< fendrin> I can spend 30 minutes.
20100510 18:44:58< timotei> fendrin, no, thanks. I started yesterday working on the wizards
20100510 18:45:06< timotei> right now testing some swt designers
20100510 18:45:16< timotei> so I can put the buttons and all that stuff
20100510 18:45:37< timotei> I thought of writing the "templtes" for the wizard in some files
20100510 18:45:47< timotei> and then replacing the values with those supplied by the wizards
20100510 18:46:11< fendrin> I think you need extra gui elements only in rare cases. Most of the use cases are covered by the eclipse plugin interface, aren't they?
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20100510 18:46:52< timotei> well, yes, there are some, but I need a drag/drop way for positioning the gui elements... I'm not so good at positiong them only from code (and work from start)
20100510 18:47:49< timotei> of course, some can be made only from code
20100510 18:49:14< fendrin> I am working on a university project which uses the eclipse ast for code instrumentation.
20100510 18:49:44< fendrin> ast = Abstract Syntay Tree
20100510 18:49:59< fendrin> s/Syntay/Syntax
20100510 18:50:33< timotei> oh
20100510 18:51:11< timotei> nice, that's used by compilers right?
20100510 18:51:20< timotei> or something like that
20100510 18:51:26< fendrin> It is a parser.
20100510 18:51:58< fendrin> Eclipse uses it for all sorts of code completion/modifications.
20100510 18:52:48< fendrin> It's only able to parse java so far, afaik.
20100510 18:53:12< fendrin> But it let me thought about having such a thing for WML 
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20100510 18:53:53< fendrin> Outside of eclipse for usage with all sorts of tools, preferable.
20100510 18:54:57< timotei> aha
20100510 18:56:56< fendrin> :-)
20100510 18:57:17< timotei> well, I start to like this compiler/parser/etc stuff
20100510 18:57:44< fendrin> It is an interesting area of computer science.
20100510 18:57:59< timotei> but I will * need* to read knuth's 1st volume :D
20100510 18:58:21< fendrin> That tells me nothing, who is knuth?
20100510 18:58:25< timotei> donald knuth
20100510 18:58:29< timotei> the art of computer programming
20100510 18:58:34< fendrin> Never heard of him?
20100510 18:58:41< fendrin> s/?/!
20100510 18:58:47< timotei> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Knuth
20100510 18:58:54< timotei> it's the man who invented LaTeX
20100510 18:59:07< timotei> and has a series (unfinished ) of books
20100510 18:59:50< fendrin> I have heard of "The art of computer programming"
20100510 18:59:54< fendrin> And used latex.
20100510 19:00:03< fendrin> So it's quite like I know him :-)
20100510 19:00:12< timotei> damn, I confused again volume 1 with the 5th
20100510 19:00:29< timotei> but It won't appear until 2015 :))
20100510 19:00:58< timotei> I wish I could teleport in 2015-2020, take that volume, and come back:))
20100510 19:01:34< fendrin> “Beware of bugs in the above code; I have only proved it correct, not tried it.”
20100510 19:01:36< fendrin> rofl
20100510 19:02:27< timotei> :D
20100510 19:08:22< CIA-10> alink * r42539 /trunk/src/menu_events.cpp: remove useless test
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20100510 19:09:17< timotei> fendrin, btw, do you know when crab_ will be back?
20100510 19:09:38< fendrin> He told about an absence of 10 or 12 days.
20100510 19:09:48< timotei> I need to know If I can commit that preprocessor part, so I can commit then my changes from java
20100510 19:09:55< fendrin> But I don't remember exactly when his absence began.
20100510 19:09:57< timotei> wesbot: seen Crab_ ?
20100510 19:10:04< timotei> lol
20100510 19:10:07< timotei> wesbot dead?
20100510 19:10:08< timotei> :-S
20100510 19:10:39< fendrin> timotei: That happens, after all, wesboth is only human as well.
20100510 19:10:53< timotei> isn't a bot?
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20100510 19:10:58< fendrin> Sure he is.
20100510 19:10:59< CIA-10> alink * r42540 /trunk/src/ (menu_events.cpp menu_events.hpp playsingle_controller.cpp): fix now unused parameter (because of r42539)
20100510 19:11:17< fendrin> timotei: That may be a sentence that only makes sense in german language.
20100510 19:11:49< timotei> how it's in deutsch?
20100510 19:12:25< fendrin> Jemand ist auch nur ein Mensch.
20100510 19:12:33< timotei> ok
20100510 19:12:56< fendrin> Do you know german?
20100510 19:12:58< timotei> I need to get my deutsch level higher...
20100510 19:13:08< timotei> well it depends, not too complex sentences
20100510 19:13:49< timotei> but missed the applying days for the courses, so only next year I can apply again
20100510 19:13:58< fendrin> Well, german isn't an easy language. I don't understand why people would like to learn it. There aren't much people around the world known to it.
20100510 19:14:10< timotei> I learned german in school
20100510 19:14:27< fendrin> Well, me too :-)
20100510 19:14:55< timotei> and I like it more than french (I had to choose between those two - my dad was in germany/ostereich so he could help me at times)
20100510 19:16:02< fendrin> I had the choice between english french spanish and latin. I was able to select first between english and french. Later I could select one from spanish and latin.
20100510 19:16:25< fendrin> But that was only the path I went.
20100510 19:16:41< fendrin> The system enforced you to take english sooner or later.
20100510 19:18:15< fendrin> So I went up with english first and french second language, no third one but computer science.
20100510 19:18:35< timotei> :-)
20100510 19:18:38-!- quist [~adam@adsl-76-242-31-59.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100510 19:19:08< fendrin> After I reached the last stage in the gymnasium I was able to select my own schedule more freely. That was my chance to banish french forever.
20100510 19:19:37-!- Blueblaze [~nick@adsl-76-202-22-156.dsl.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100510 19:19:52< timotei> cool, your school system is more flexible than our
20100510 19:19:53-!- boucman [~rosen@wesnoth/developer/boucman] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100510 19:19:56< timotei> s/our/ours
20100510 19:19:58< fendrin> I wished I had learned it more intensively. It's a nice langueage and my home is only 10 kilometers from the french border. 
20100510 19:20:08-!- billynux [~billy@wesnoth/developer/billynux] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100510 19:20:19< timotei> :D
20100510 19:20:56< fendrin> timotei: My three Power-courses were Physic, Math and History.
20100510 19:20:59< boucman> hey all
20100510 19:21:06< timotei> hey boucman 
20100510 19:21:12< fendrin> hello boucman
20100510 19:21:13< timotei> Math is ok as long as you understand it
20100510 19:21:41< billynux> hi all too :)
20100510 19:21:50< fendrin> Right, I had a new student sitting in a course right beside me. It's one I repeat, should have mastered it for ages.
20100510 19:22:06< fendrin> We had to do proving with induction.
20100510 19:22:13< fendrin> He was so cute.
20100510 19:22:46< fendrin> First he wrote "Let n be one." So far so good.
20100510 19:23:53< fendrin> He substituted the n in the left side of the equation with 1 and magically the value of that term was one as well.
20100510 19:24:21< fendrin> That suited him and he considered the Induction start to be fine.
20100510 19:24:27< billynux> :)
20100510 19:24:38< timotei> :))
20100510 19:24:41< timotei> nice one
20100510 19:25:01< fendrin> Later in the Induction step he managed to reduce his term to a one containing only n and some extra.
20100510 19:25:26< fendrin> Quite the time to substitude with the induction hypothesis.
20100510 19:26:02< fendrin> He remembered that he already knows that this part of the equation equals one, so substitution was easy.
20100510 19:27:03< fendrin> And magically the result of the whole term was one as well! This can't be a coincidence so prove finished.
20100510 19:27:33< fendrin> He asked me if I expect him to get any points for that test. Poor boy.
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20100510 19:36:53< timotei> btw, is there anyone who likes/plays indie games? (or even develops indie games?)
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20100510 19:56:41< fendrin> timotei: isn't wesnoth indie?
20100510 19:57:02< Ivanovic> yes, i'd consider wesnoth indie, too
20100510 19:57:03< timotei> mhh, you could call it like that
20100510 19:57:22 * fendrin just called a serialized object .blob. Feels good.
20100510 19:57:25< timotei> here something for those who like indies: http://www.wolfire.com/humble
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20100510 20:41:35< gabba> bonjour
20100510 20:41:41< boucman> bonjour
20100510 20:41:46< timotei> hello gabba 
20100510 20:41:51< gabba> hi boucman, timotei
20100510 20:41:54< boucman> did you get my mail ? (I just sent it)
20100510 20:42:05 * gabba goes to check his email
20100510 20:43:10< gabba> boucman: ok, I suppose you're leaving soon then
20100510 20:43:21< boucman> about 2' :P
20100510 20:43:35< gabba> wow, sorry I couldn't login earlier
20100510 20:43:45< boucman> i should be here later tonight, hopefully you will still be here...
20100510 20:43:58< boucman> no big deal... will you be able to post the UML tonight ?
20100510 20:44:16< gabba> yes, hopefully before you come back
20100510 20:44:29< boucman> that would be great...
20100510 20:44:33< boucman> leaving now, see you all later
20100510 20:44:44< gabba> 'later
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20100510 21:53:53< gabba> boucman: here's the uml diagram http://imagebin.org/96356
20100510 21:55:09-!- billynux [~billy@wesnoth/developer/billynux] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100510 21:56:34-!- Bocom_ is now known as Bocom
20100510 21:57:33< gabba> boucman: also, I managed to set up the following: git://wesboard.git.sourceforge.net/gitroot/wesboard/wesboard
20100510 21:59:12-!- Aethaeryn [~Michael@wesnoth/umc-dev/developer/aethaeryn] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100510 22:00:36< gabba> boucman: Don't know how much I'll use that git repo, yet. Pushing the whole wesnoth history there was rather long :P. I asked them for permission, though.
20100510 22:01:20< Aethaeryn> Wesnoth is moving to git?
20100510 22:01:31< gabba> Aethaeryn: nope
20100510 22:01:41< gabba> it's for my personal use
20100510 22:01:51< Aethaeryn> Good. It would suck if just as I have a perfectly automated ./updater script perfected I would have to rewrite it. :P
20100510 22:02:38< gabba> Aethaeryn: :) Was there ever any talk of moving, though? It seems many devs are using git-svn anyways
20100510 22:02:49< gabba> boucman: project is there: https://sourceforge.net/projects/wesboard/
20100510 22:03:16< Aethaeryn> gabba: shadowmaster and the #Wesnoth-umc-dev crew were talking about git months ago.
20100510 22:03:22< shadowmaster> yes
20100510 22:03:22-!- mordante [~mordante@wesnoth/developer/mordante] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100510 22:03:34< mordante> servus
20100510 22:03:34< Aethaeryn> woah, shadowmaster is quick
20100510 22:03:41< gabba> servus mordante
20100510 22:03:43< shadowmaster> Wesnoth moving to git? no until Gna supports it
20100510 22:03:50< mordante> hi gabba 
20100510 22:04:06< shadowmaster> and even then, I've still not confirmed msysgit/tortoisegit's usabilllity
20100510 22:04:09< billynux> hi mordante 
20100510 22:04:12< shadowmaster> usability even
20100510 22:04:16< mordante> hi billynux 
20100510 22:04:21< shadowmaster> hi mordante 
20100510 22:04:31< gabba> shadowmaster: makes sense, I was forgetting Windows users :P
20100510 22:04:32< mordante> hi shadowmaster 
20100510 22:04:33< billynux> haven't seen you around... although I haven't been around much too
20100510 22:04:35< Aethaeryn> "He sees you when you're sleeping, he knows when you're awake. He knows if you've been bad or good, so be good for goodness sake." <- describes shadowmaster's role in the Wesnoth project perfectly
20100510 22:05:07< boucman> and back...
20100510 22:05:14< Aethaeryn> Which can only mean one thing, shadowmaster is Santa Claus.
20100510 22:05:17< boucman> gabba: looking at your image now...
20100510 22:05:25< boucman> Aethaeryn: hehe
20100510 22:05:28< billynux> mordante: I'm attending a congress this week, so I don't expect to contribute much to ana
20100510 22:05:52< mordante> billynux, ok no problem, I probably will also be not much around this week
20100510 22:05:57< gabba> Aethaeryn: :)
20100510 22:06:02< billynux> mordante: Did you see the last commits? I support generic buffers with and without copy
20100510 22:06:19< billynux> mordante: there are some shady memory management, but correct one (malloc + free in C++ ...)
20100510 22:06:21< mordante> billynux, no first catching up with the irc logs
20100510 22:06:43< Aethaeryn> gabba: Also, my personal POV about "forgetting Windows users" is that they forget us all the time, so we can go ahead and forget them back. But, I'm just the wiki guy so my opinion doesn't really count for anything. :P
20100510 22:06:47< shadowmaster> Aethaeryn: eventually. My beard isn't white yet
20100510 22:06:56< Aethaeryn> oh wait, I also lead the Latin translation... forgetting I have two official roles now
20100510 22:07:33< shadowmaster> although I really don't like red.
20100510 22:07:40< boucman> Aethaeryn: for the git discussion "windows users" means "music/art devs with commit access that are not technically inclined"
20100510 22:07:50< Aethaeryn> boucman: No, that's Mac users.
20100510 22:07:52< boucman> coders usually cope with command line tools and all have cygwin installed
20100510 22:08:15< Aethaeryn> I'm not sure about Wesnoth's statistics, but 50% of all Photoshop sales are for the Mac binary.
20100510 22:08:32< Aethaeryn> And since Macs are only about 10% of all computers, that skews the art crowd a bit.
20100510 22:09:04< Aethaeryn> At least, the talented/professional art crowd.
20100510 22:09:12< Aethaeryn> The ones with the awesome portraits
20100510 22:09:40< shadowmaster> you seem to forget about poor zookeeper and TSI
20100510 22:10:01< shadowmaster> particularly TSI, although I'm not saying zookeeper's art is bad :P
20100510 22:10:30< Aethaeryn> no offense intended to TSI, his ability is beyond mine and I am actually going to stat some of his sprites for an upcoming project after my final exams...
20100510 22:10:34< Aethaeryn> but even he isn't a pro
20100510 22:10:53< gabba> That's while there's a photoshop mac binary, given how well Adobe and Apple get along these days
20100510 22:10:57< shadowmaster> weren't you looking for windows users who aren't technically inclined?
20100510 22:11:07< Aethaeryn> oh, it was more focusing on this line.
20100510 22:11:09< shadowmaster> oh, we are reviewing sales stats again.
20100510 22:11:12< Aethaeryn> 16:08:11 < boucman> Aethaeryn: for the git discussion "windows users" means "music/art devs with commit access that are not technically inclined"
20100510 22:11:33< Aethaeryn> I was saying that the Mac users are probably more likely to be music/art devs as a whole.
20100510 22:11:43< shadowmaster> that doesn't matter.
20100510 22:11:43< Aethaeryn> Since they're about 9x as likely to own Photoshop
20100510 22:11:47< gabba> just speculating of course, but an alternative would be to switch to Mercurial since (apparently) it has much better windows support, and has a less arcane command set. And there's TortoiseHG, dunno if that's good.
20100510 22:11:50< Aethaeryn> or however that stat adds up, don't have time for maths
20100510 22:11:52< shadowmaster> we are talking about the existing audience, not the future audience
20100510 22:12:02< boucman> Aethaeryn: yes, but the fact is that we do have windows art dev, so we must consider them, 
20100510 22:12:07< Aethaeryn> yeah, true
20100510 22:12:09< Aethaeryn> Does kitty use Mac OS X or Windows?
20100510 22:12:14< shadowmaster> Mac OS X
20100510 22:12:14< Aethaeryn> And what about Sgt. Groovy?
20100510 22:12:28< gabba> and you can also easily mix git (as backend) and mercurial (as frontend, for those who like it better)
20100510 22:12:30< shadowmaster> no idea, but TSI uses Windows as I said above and he's fairly important to the project atm
20100510 22:12:32< Aethaeryn> (yeah, not as big in quantity but he *is* doing some cool things like the logo)
20100510 22:12:48< Aethaeryn> yeah
20100510 22:13:41< Aethaeryn> I suppose I was just trying to say that git support for Mac OS X is more important weighted for art/music, that's all.
20100510 22:13:45< boucman> gabba: first question: getImagesFo(l:loc) : list of images
20100510 22:14:00< Aethaeryn> *Not* implying that Windows isn't important. There are important Windows art devs.
20100510 22:14:14< Aethaeryn> Just assuming that people like kitty and at least a few key music people use Mac, a safe bet\
20100510 22:14:26< gabba> boucman: yup
20100510 22:14:28< boucman> so you don't "merge" arrows, i.e if you have two arrows one going n->s the other n->se, you draw two images, one over the other
20100510 22:14:43< boucman> not a single image n->s->se
20100510 22:14:58< shadowmaster> Aethaeryn: the thing is music devs don't care
20100510 22:14:59< gabba> boucman: it seems easier this way, you actually suggested it as a possibility
20100510 22:15:03< shadowmaster> they don't commit to the repository
20100510 22:15:04< Aethaeryn> I could be wrong on this, but it seems like there's a disproportionate Mac/Linux crowd of regulars at Wesnoth because there are many high-quality Windows alternatives and not as many for the other two major platforms.
20100510 22:15:13< boucman> (that's fine, just making sure you realize there is a technical choice here)
20100510 22:15:19< boucman> ok
20100510 22:15:30< Aethaeryn> I myself might be getting a Mac Mini to play around with (as long as I can install Linux on it to dualboot :P)
20100510 22:16:05< Aethaeryn> but we got off topic
20100510 22:16:08< Aethaeryn> we were talking about git
20100510 22:16:42< Aethaeryn> can someone return our convo on track?
20100510 22:17:00< gabba> boucman: one thing I'm not sure about, is whether to add arrow images to the proper layers in display::draw_hex, or to ask arrows to do it themselves, or ask the factory to do it
20100510 22:17:47< boucman> gabba: I think it would make sense to have a set_layer() next to set_color() and set_style()
20100510 22:17:49< gabba> boucman: arrows doing it is probably the most elegant, object oriented way, but it's not really the way the code works for other stuff right now
20100510 22:18:13< boucman> it's the way it works for unit animations, not sure about terrains
20100510 22:18:36< gabba> boucman: ok, so there's a precedent
20100510 22:19:09< gabba> boucman: I was basing myself mainly on footstep images
20100510 22:19:29< gabba> boucman: set_layer() sounds good
20100510 22:20:40< billynux> ok, I'm off. mordante: review the code if you can (the malloc+free thing doesn't look good, but I have faith that it is a correct solution). We will have to email this week as I won't be able to chat much
20100510 22:21:05-!- Darkas [~quassel@ppp-88-217-101-52.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100510 22:21:18< boucman> gabba: not much to say at this point... just a small question, though
20100510 22:21:27< mordante> billynux, ok, but I'm not sure whether I'll be around a computer much this week at all
20100510 22:21:34< boucman> these arrows here are only for displaying, not actual "game data"
20100510 22:21:47< gabba> boucman: yes, just visual fluff
20100510 22:21:51< billynux> mordante: no problem. Changing subject: do you think I'm behind schedule?
20100510 22:21:55< boucman> so why do you put an oberver around them, in what case do you intend to use the observer ?
20100510 22:22:12< billynux> mordante: I sure would like to have a bit more at this point
20100510 22:22:35< boucman> usually display is "write only" we try not to read info from the display stuff, which the oberver sort of does...
20100510 22:23:11< mordante> billynux, you can't be behind, the programme starts in a few weeks ;-P I also don't know how much time you have at the moment
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20100510 22:23:19< mordante> and designing takes time
20100510 22:23:29< gabba> boucman: one good use case is when the player is moving the cursor around to create a planned move, i.e. he moves the arrow tip around
20100510 22:23:31< mordante> but I'm happy you wanted to start early
20100510 22:23:57< mordante> I'm content with your progress thusfar
20100510 22:24:00< billynux> mordante: Yes... I don't have a lot of time this week. But a do expect to work pretty intense starting next week. 
20100510 22:24:18< boucman> hmm
20100510 22:24:19< gabba> boucman: I create a pathfind_arrow with the factory, and update the end point as the user moves his cursor around
20100510 22:24:21< mordante> ok great
20100510 22:24:29< mordante> have fun at the conference
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20100510 22:24:47< billynux> mordante: Great... I'm concerned about deliverables... I would like to finsh the ana api+implementation by may 24. So I can start with detailed documentation then
20100510 22:24:48< boucman> i'm not sure you would need an observer for that...
20100510 22:24:59< gabba> boucman: since the factory is registered as an observer, it gets notified about the change every time and updates the relevent hex to arrow map
20100510 22:25:13< boucman> oh, ok
20100510 22:25:37< billynux> mordante: RE the congress... My thesis busted out running on a 110 node cluster@intel :( memory trouble and a concurrency bug 
20100510 22:25:37< mordante> billynux, maybe discuss it in more detail next week, I'll have more time then
20100510 22:25:39< kevg> does anyone use empathy on ubuntu for irc? How to turn off auto scroll on new messages? Its nearly impossible to read when it is a lot of new messages coming.
20100510 22:25:45< boucman> I hadn't assimilated the factory was an observer, as it needs to be to update its internal structures
20100510 22:26:25< boucman> it makes sense for factory to be an observer, but i'm not sure anybody else should be...
20100510 22:26:26< mordante> concurrency is tricky, but a 110 node cluster sounds nice...
20100510 22:26:32< gabba> boucman: I thought client code could use the observer mechanism for its own clever uses, but I don't have anything clear in mind there
20100510 22:26:41< mordante> what memory problem a leak or simply too much used?
20100510 22:27:31< billynux> mordante: The mem problem isn't a bug but a _feature_ ... I just didn't contemplate 16GB files... I thought it could all go in the heap
20100510 22:27:34< boucman> i don't like the idea of having the mapping hex<=>arrow data both in factory and the arrows, but I can't see any easy way to avoid it...
20100510 22:28:00< mordante> 16GB in one allocation?
20100510 22:28:18< boucman> let's keep the observer paradigm, it makes sense, but I don't think using it for anything but the factory is a good idea... though if a case arise, everything will be in place
20100510 22:28:19< billynux> mordante, and the concurrency issue is _strange_... I have mutexes in every operation...
20100510 22:28:38< billynux> mordante: no, but I dynamically load it into memory on a needed basis
20100510 22:28:44< gabba> boucman: it's two mappings actually: arrow=>hex in the arrow, hex=>arrow in the factory, but obviously the second is much more expensive to maintain, but essential for drawing
20100510 22:29:08< boucman> indeed...
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20100510 22:29:15< billynux> mordante: I'll change that to something like a sliding window... but It will take its toll on disk operations later
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20100510 22:29:47< gabba> boucman: ok -- I admit this kind of observer is not very respectful of the MVC structure, which you seem to be using somewhat
20100510 22:29:59< mordante> did you test with a concurrency validation tool?
20100510 22:30:55< boucman> if arrow::path is a "short" access", we could possibly get rid of arrows_by_hex
20100510 22:31:25< boucman> i.e on draw(loc) we do a foreach arrow, get_image(loc) where get_image could return an empty set
20100510 22:31:54< boucman> assuming ~20 arrows, the cost would be low, probably worth the maintanance burden of arrows_by_hex
20100510 22:32:19< gabba> boucman: yes, it all depends on the number of arrows
20100510 22:33:19< gabba> arrows_by_hex will only update the hexes where the arrow last was, and those of it's new position
20100510 22:34:18< boucman> not sure I understand your last sentence, arrows_by_hex is a structure...
20100510 22:34:49< timotei> lol, installed git, and windows's command prompt displays the icon from git 
20100510 22:34:50< gabba> boucman: err yeah, sorry, s/will only update/will only be updated with
20100510 22:35:27< billynux> mordante: No... I could try model checking the critical module... but haven't tried it
20100510 22:35:44< gabba> boucman: I tend to anthropomorphise my data structures :P
20100510 22:35:55< timotei> fendrin, I'm going now. we'll talk next days
20100510 22:35:58< billynux> mordante: Maybe some temporal logic... spin/alloy... something
20100510 22:35:58< timotei> good night everybody
20100510 22:36:06< billynux> g'night timo
20100510 22:36:09< timotei> ;)
20100510 22:36:12< mordante> night timotei 
20100510 22:36:14-!- timotei [~timotei@wesnoth/developer/timotei] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
20100510 22:36:26< boucman> gabba: k, your design is fine, I'd rather get rid of arrows_by_hex, since it could lead to tricky bugs, but that's still in the "your code your choice" area, so do as you think is better
20100510 22:36:53< billynux> I'm off to the university too... there is hell to pay for my students who didn't indent their exam code!
20100510 22:37:05< billynux> bye y'all, bye mordante 
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20100510 22:37:39< gabba> boucman: alright; just a thing, what did you mean above by a "short" access?
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20100510 22:38:56< boucman> checking if a loc is in a path is less than o(n), preferably o(1)
20100510 22:39:10 * boucman is not very good at stl data structures
20100510 22:40:37< gabba> boucman: well, to get close to o(1) it involves something indexed like a map in each arrow
20100510 22:41:37< boucman> yes, replacing the list<loc> with another type of structure, but since the list is rarely accessed as a list, that would make sense
20100510 22:41:53< boucman> (our main use case is drawing, our secondary use case is arrow modification)
20100510 22:44:18< gabba> boucman: yes, I see that it could work too, and it does have the advantage of avoiding the big blobby map
20100510 22:45:01< gabba> boucman: I'll compare both approaches a bit more carefully later on
20100510 22:45:12< boucman> maybe using a map<loc,image::locator>
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20100510 22:45:37< gabba> yes, something like that
20100510 22:46:31< boucman> gabba: once again, the choice is yours, both work... but thinking of alternatives is always a good idea...
20100510 22:47:08< gabba> boucman: sure, that's why teamwork is good and two brains are better than one :)
20100510 22:48:50< boucman> gabba: invalidation should be fine... when an arrow::setPath is called, it should invalidate both old hexes and new one and we are good...
20100510 22:49:06< boucman> same thing on set_color or set_stype
20100510 22:49:14< boucman> overall invalidation should be simple to get right
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20100510 22:50:39< boucman> ok, so how about a little planning talk :)
20100510 22:50:53< gabba> boucman: ah thanks, I was wondering about invalidation and forgot to mention it.
20100510 22:51:16< gabba> boucman: yes, why not some planning
20100510 22:52:09< boucman> ok, so the next logical step is to implement these and get them working, that step should take at least this week and most of next week, assuming 50% time on it...
20100510 22:53:16< gabba> boucman: well, first I should mention there's a big change upcoming: I'm canceling the math course, since it's eating way more time than I foresaw
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20100510 22:54:04< boucman> well, that's good news for us :)
20100510 22:54:07< gabba> boucman: so it completely changes the whole "work half-time until mid-june to make up for the course" idea
20100510 22:54:44< gabba> boucman: but I'm still gonna put some time on the project from now to may 24
20100510 22:55:08< gabba> boucman: yes, overall Wesnoth wins :)
20100510 22:55:14< boucman> :)
20100510 22:55:50< boucman> ok, so could you give me a reasonable planning for the next week(s)
20100510 22:56:31< gabba> boucman: I'm gonna set as a soft goal to have finished the arrows framework for may 24
20100510 22:56:35< gabba> that's two weeks
20100510 22:57:07< gabba> but I'm gonna be off the hook from wednesday to sunday
20100510 22:57:35< boucman> that sounds good...
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20100510 22:58:08< mordante> shadowmaster, thanks for the link, I'll ponder over it a bit more
20100510 22:58:20< shadowmaster> k
20100510 22:58:53< gabba> boucman: so, basically I'm gonna put 7-10 days on the arrows framework, in a relaxed fashion since after all, I'm starting early
20100510 22:59:05< boucman> fair enough
20100510 23:00:19< gabba> boucman: you said you were gonna be semi-absent for a while, didn't you?
20100510 23:00:40< zookeeper> urgh, git still sounds horribly complicated to me, in comparison to svn.
20100510 23:00:58-!- Johannes13 [~Johannes@unaffiliated/johannes13] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
20100510 23:01:02< boucman> from wensday till next wensday, 
20100510 23:01:11< boucman> after that i should be around more regularly
20100510 23:01:27< gabba> boucman: ok
20100510 23:03:56< gabba> zookeeper: it is more complicated (well, especially if you try to use git-svn)
20100510 23:04:21< gabba> zookeeper: with great power comes a big headache from reading the manual, or something like that
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20100510 23:05:19< gabba> mercurial has more logical command names, though, and it can be used almost seamlessly as a frontend to git, from what I heard
20100510 23:06:20< zookeeper> gabba, the whole concept just seems ridiculously overcomplicated
20100510 23:06:51< zookeeper> that's not to say it doesn't have its uses
20100510 23:10:10< gabba> zookeeper: well, for everyday use it's not that bad: 'git commit' whenever you have changes, 'git push' to some public repo when you want to publish them, and git fetch == svn update more or less
20100510 23:11:40< mordante> I'm off night
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20100510 23:14:36< zookeeper> gabba, sure, if it's set up so that i really don't need to worry about the details then i suppose using it wouldn't be too bad.
20100510 23:14:45< zookeeper> except having to download the whole bloody repo, which is ridiculous :x
20100510 23:16:00< gabba> zookeeper: well "the whole bloody" history takes the same space as a standard svn checkout with only the last revision, which is pretty awesome :)
20100510 23:16:11< shadowmaster> um.
20100510 23:16:37< shadowmaster> I agree that the whole repo becomes complicated to handle given the kind of project Wesnoth is
20100510 23:16:47< shadowmaster> i.e. large data files which are difficult to compress.
20100510 23:17:55< zookeeper> gabba, how can that be possible? if i have a git "checkout" (or whatever it's called) then doesn't that include the whole history of the whole repo?
20100510 23:17:56< gabba> I don't know if it would get much worse in the future, but right now my wesnoth-svn and wesnoth-git checkouts take the same space
20100510 23:18:00< shadowmaster> any operation with git here gets really slow until Linux holds enough parts of the repository in the filesystem cache in RAM. IIRC Windows isn't very optimistic in regards to caching..
20100510 23:18:02< zookeeper> at least that's what my impression was
20100510 23:18:19< shadowmaster> *with Wesnoth's git-svn tree
20100510 23:18:27< gabba> zookeeper: they have mad delta compression algorithms
20100510 23:18:54< zookeeper> right
20100510 23:21:06< gabba> shadowmaster: for me git is more or less the same speed as svn for some stuff, faster for others (log is much faster)
20100510 23:21:19< zookeeper> my 1.8+svn checkout takes up about 1gb
20100510 23:21:32< shadowmaster> well, for me svn will always be slower because of the combination of a crappy network connection with a shit network library :P
20100510 23:22:05< shadowmaster> shadowm@bluecore:~/src/wesnoth$ du -sh .git
20100510 23:22:05< shadowmaster> 1.4G	.git
20100510 23:22:10< gabba> zookeeper: my git-svn checkout takes 1.4 GB ;)
20100510 23:22:13< shadowmaster> that's the whole history
20100510 23:22:17< gabba> yeah ^
20100510 23:22:33< zookeeper> what i hate about svn is how it seems to be slow, and especially fetching history data is a major pain
20100510 23:22:58< shadowmaster> of course, combined with the working tree files, it makes up around 5.1 GB.
20100510 23:23:16< shadowmaster> 1.6 GB are intermediate object files produced by the builds
20100510 23:23:21< gabba> yes svn log is a pain, git is extremely nice for that
20100510 23:24:04< shadowmaster> and then  I guess du doesn't take into account hard links (wesnoth-debug exists twice with the same inode, etc.)
20100510 23:25:08< gabba> honestly if we switch to a distributed scm I'm more worried about subtle stuff like merge vs rebase, and people rewriting their local history the wrong way then pushing to the central server
20100510 23:25:24< gabba> but that's a worry for coders, not artists, fortunately
20100510 23:26:51< gabba> I'd like to see a projection of future disk space use, supposing wesnoth keeps adding binary files at the same rate. Supposedly git gets better at finding deltas as the repo increases, so it's kind of hard to foresee.
20100510 23:29:56< gabba> btw, the git backend seems pretty straightforward and elegant: http://www-cs-students.stanford.edu/~blynn/gitmagic/ch08.html
20100510 23:34:21< zookeeper> so what's HEAD short for? since it's always in caps i'm guessing it's an abbreviation or something.
20100510 23:34:33 * zookeeper has asked before but doesn't remember the answer
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20100510 23:36:10< shadowmaster> it's no abbreviation, it's a keyword
20100510 23:36:19< shadowmaster> HEAD stands for the branch's latest revision
20100510 23:36:28< shadowmaster> just as it does in SVN, except for the whole repository
20100510 23:36:38< zookeeper> ok
20100510 23:36:57< shadowmaster> (in SVN, BASE refers to the latest downloaded revision, e.g. the working copy's revision)
20100510 23:38:40< zookeeper> got it
20100510 23:38:56 * zookeeper thinks tortoisesvn should have tooltips explaining those then
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20100510 23:39:47< shadowmaster> the Turtle book, my son.
20100510 23:40:13< shadowmaster> it shall guide you through the patch of enlightment, suffering and strife.
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20100510 23:44:08< boucman> gabba: anything else to discuss tonight ?
20100510 23:44:35< gabba> boucman: I don't think so
20100510 23:44:42< shadowmaster> s/patch/path/
20100510 23:47:16< boucman> gabba: ok, in that case, see you romorow :)
20100510 23:47:19< boucman> night all
20100510 23:47:24-!- boucman [~rosen@wesnoth/developer/boucman] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
20100510 23:50:13< gabba> Did you guys see this Humble Indie Bundle thing? http://www.wolfire.com/humble
--- Log closed Tue May 11 00:00:30 2010