--- Log opened Sat May 22 00:00:08 2010
--- Day changed Sat May 22 2010
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20100522 00:02:15< Sapient> boucman, zookeeper: I disagree about patch 1665
20100522 00:02:26< boucman> wesbot: patch 1665
20100522 00:02:26< wesbot> Patch #1665  Assigned to: Yurii Chernyi <crab>  Status: Done  Priority: 5 - Normal
20100522 00:02:29< Sapient> if this is going to be changed then you might as well unify it to behave as a normal SUF instead of requiring a special attribute
20100522 00:02:29< wesbot> Summary: https://gna.org/bugs/?15921
20100522 00:02:32< wesbot> Original submission: 
20100522 00:02:34< wesbot> URL: https://gna.org/patch/?1665
20100522 00:02:37< wesbot> Attached file (1st): https://gna.org/patch/download.php?file_id=9129
20100522 00:03:02< Sapient> now in the development version is the right time to make such changes, if they are to be made
20100522 00:03:54< Sapient> the burden should be upon the patch submitter to check that no existing content in official content is broken by the changes
20100522 00:05:05< boucman> Sapient: you sure about your patch number ?
20100522 00:05:13< boucman> this one is about scroll to leader...
20100522 00:05:49< Sapient> https://gna.org/patch/?1672 
20100522 00:06:01< Sapient> I am responding to kevg
20100522 00:07:00< Sapient> the main reason behind the patch was the inconsistent behavior of SUF, and this makes it still remain inconsistent
20100522 00:07:01< boucman> Sapient: I have already naked the current patch for other reasons...
20100522 00:07:20< boucman> i'm not sure to understand what your proposing, though
20100522 00:07:24< zookeeper> oh, hi sapient
20100522 00:07:29< Sapient> you "naked" ?
20100522 00:07:38< boucman> NAK ed
20100522 00:07:45< boucman> bad acronym :P
20100522 00:07:46 * Sapient shields his eyes
20100522 00:09:05< zookeeper> umm, i don't understand what you're talking about. what do SUFs have to do with that?
20100522 00:09:27< Sapient> I posted the wrong patch number initially
20100522 00:10:02< Sapient> I am responding to the discussion of kevg and his "recall_too" patch
20100522 00:10:24< Sapient> refer to irclog at 20100519 16:25:17
20100522 00:11:11< zookeeper> oh, got it
20100522 00:11:49< zookeeper> yeah, i considered that possibility too
20100522 00:12:41 * boucman still doesn't understand Sapient's proposal
20100522 00:12:44< zookeeper> but frankly i didn't want to suggest that (even in trunk) due to how it'd by default break a lot of current uses
20100522 00:13:10< zookeeper> boucman, sapient wants [have_unit] to look in the recall list by default, just like [store_unit] (for example) does, without any special key telling it to do so
20100522 00:13:12< zookeeper> (AFAICT)
20100522 00:13:22< Sapient> If we were approaching a new stable release I might be more cautious but this is the beginning of a dev series
20100522 00:13:35< zookeeper> that is, if you want it to _not_ look in the recall list, then you'd give it [not] x,y=recall,recall [/not] or something
20100522 00:13:50< boucman> hmm
20100522 00:14:03< zookeeper> yeah, if you particularly want to make such a change then it's fine by me, as long as mainline uses are taken care of
20100522 00:14:06< boucman> do you think esr could cook some wmllint magic for us ?
20100522 00:14:07< Sapient> It should be simple (if tedious) to add {NOT_RECALL} or whatever to existing [have_unit] filters
20100522 00:14:08< zookeeper> ...which i can likely help with
20100522 00:14:29< boucman> sicne basically all [have_unit] could have a block added
20100522 00:14:34< isaac> Rhonda: it wasn't that silently :P
20100522 00:14:44< boucman> hey isaac
20100522 00:15:11< esr> boucman: What do you need?
20100522 00:15:23< isaac> hi boucman , how is it going? :)
20100522 00:15:23< Sapient> boucman: that may be overkill, though. I'm sure most of the places don't need it
20100522 00:15:58< Sapient> can anyone grep to see how many [have_unit] there are in trunk?
20100522 00:16:15 * zookeeper greps
20100522 00:16:21< boucman> esr: nothing yet, we're discussing a syntax change, and it's probably tool-liftable, so we are taking that aspect into account in our discussion
20100522 00:16:35< boucman> isaac: fine, thx... GSoC is starting well
20100522 00:17:22< boucman> Sapient: if we go with your idea, adding the block would provide compatibility, "not needing" might be hard to determine
20100522 00:17:40< Sapient> it would not be something to add to wmllint unless the --oldversion feature were brought back
20100522 00:17:46< zookeeper> 350 matches in mainline campaigns only
20100522 00:18:04< esr> boucman: Noted.  I designed wmllint partly to make this kind of discussion easier.
20100522 00:18:49< boucman> zookeeper: ouch
20100522 00:19:00< boucman> Sapient: what was --oldversion ?
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20100522 00:20:14< Sapient> wmllint in its current form only makes transformations that can be determined without user-supplied version from/to
20100522 00:20:31< boucman> k
20100522 00:21:05< Sapient> since [have_unit] in 1.9 would appear identical to 1.8, there would be no way to determine if it needed the transformation or not
20100522 00:21:26< boucman> oh, ok. I see the problem
20100522 00:21:59< esr> boucman: This means, in particular, that transformations have to be idempotent - applying wmllint twice must have the same effect as applying it once.
20100522 00:22:20< boucman> hmm
20100522 00:22:23< boucman> ok
20100522 00:22:39< boucman> we should add a version number in WML :P
20100522 00:23:26< Sapient> it was discussed
20100522 00:23:39< Sapient> I don't remember why it was rejected exactly
20100522 00:24:24< Sapient> anyway, I was perfectly content with --oldversion, which allowed us to transform content as old as 1.2
20100522 00:24:29< zookeeper> aaanyway, most uses seem to be checks for whether a hero unit is alive or whether a specific side has any units left
20100522 00:24:54< zookeeper> so frankly i don't think it'd take too long to browse through all of those and check which ones need to be changed
20100522 00:25:19< Sapient> true
20100522 00:25:26< esr> Sapient: If you want 1.4 wmllint, you know where to find it :-)  Anyway I doubt there's any 1.2 content left out there.
20100522 00:26:49< boucman> Sapient: I like your syntax, but the fact that we can't neither use wmllint for upgrade nor check all UMC worries me a little
20100522 00:27:36< Sapient> it is regrettable whenever we lose backwards compatibility, but having poor language design is worse
20100522 00:28:03< zookeeper> Sapient, btw, i had another issue i wanted to talk with you about
20100522 00:28:23< Sapient> ok, my time is short though
20100522 00:28:24< boucman> Sapient: did you post a comment in the patch ?
20100522 00:28:49< Sapient> boucman: no, I can post one later from home if need be
20100522 00:28:56< zookeeper> namely: if i give a unit an [object] which modifies all its attacks, then give the unit another [object] which grants it a new attack, then the effects of the first [object] won't apply to the new attack
20100522 00:28:58< boucman> that would be nice
20100522 00:29:23< Sapient> zookeeper: true
20100522 00:29:33< zookeeper> Sapient, should we consider that a bug?
20100522 00:29:46< Sapient> I think it is operating as designed
20100522 00:30:28< zookeeper> hmh :/
20100522 00:31:22< Sapient> it gives more possible combinations than the other behavior
20100522 00:31:49< zookeeper> really?
20100522 00:31:52< Sapient> object behavior is order-dependent, just like trait behavior
20100522 00:32:08< zookeeper> ah, right.
20100522 00:32:53< zookeeper> so basically, if i added the new attack-granting object but placed it _before_ the attack-modifying object, it'd work?
20100522 00:33:07< zookeeper> with some [set_variables] trickery, that is
20100522 00:33:30 * Sapient ponders this
20100522 00:33:31< zookeeper> and took care of clearing the necessary variables etc
20100522 00:33:43< Sapient> it can work
20100522 00:33:48< zookeeper> if that'd solve it, then at least i can relatively easily hack my problem case using that
20100522 00:33:52< zookeeper> i guess i'll have to try
20100522 00:34:45< Sapient> you may have to advance the unit to it's own type to force a rebuild from type
20100522 00:35:06< Sapient> *its (thanks, scott)
20100522 00:36:30< Sapient> clearing the relavant veriables might also work
20100522 00:38:02< Sapient> this is true if the object is modifying anything that also supports direct variable modification
20100522 00:38:19< Sapient> it is the way the two systems co-exist
20100522 00:39:22< zookeeper> i wonder if we could get a complete reworking of the modification system in 1.9... ;)
20100522 00:39:45< Sapient> well, the current way does have its benefits
20100522 00:40:06< Sapient> some people have a strong preference for objects over direct modifications, and vice-versa
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20100522 00:41:04< Sapient> objects are convenient but weak
20100522 00:41:29< Sapient> direct modifications are powerful but tricky
20100522 00:41:48< Sapient> so I think there is room for both
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20100522 00:42:22< Sapient> however, I do think we need a [modify_unit] tag
20100522 00:42:34< Sapient> that would simplify a lot of direct modifications
20100522 00:42:51< Sapient> as specified on wiki/FutureWML
20100522 00:43:57< zookeeper> yeah, i was thinking more like using a single method of modification (currently we have direct, object and abilities...), and an ability to specify how each one should work (one-time, persistent, re-applied on leveling, etc)
20100522 00:44:38< zookeeper> but i gotta be going
20100522 00:44:47< Sapient> ok, cya
20100522 00:45:07< Sapient> I think such a system would be inherently less powerful no matter how nice we made it though
20100522 00:45:23< zookeeper> (and also one set of syntax for doing everything...effects and abilities and specials are all separate even though they're used for doing very similar things)
20100522 00:45:29< zookeeper> maybe
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20100522 01:00:36< AI0867> elias: I've added json output to the python parser
20100522 01:12:17< AI0867> of course, you want it as *input* for the python parser...
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20100522 01:44:01< Sapient> any french speakers here?
20100522 01:45:17< shadowmaster> boucman left 1 hour ag.
20100522 01:45:49< Sapient> ah, too bad
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20100522 01:47:20< Espreon> Sapient: Uh, why do you need a French speaker?
20100522 01:47:51< Sapient> do you speak french?
20100522 01:48:33< Sapient> I'm wondering if the assumption that translators can find a 1 character boolean equivalent of Y/N is a false assumption
20100522 01:48:49< Sapient> for example, would O/N be understood as Oui/No
20100522 01:49:01< Espreon> Sapient: Ewwww, no.
20100522 01:49:33< Sapient> also curious how hard it is to get french translation without unicode support
20100522 01:49:57< Sapient> or, would lack of unicode support be a serious obstacle for most languages
20100522 01:50:10< Espreon> I'm pretty sure that you could use that Latin-1 crap for Frenchie Neo-Latin.
20100522 01:50:38< Espreon> Superior languages, however, often require Unicode.
20100522 01:51:54< Sapient> so would a french speaker be likely to prefer Y/N over O/N ?
20100522 01:52:25 * Espreon shrugs
20100522 01:52:30< Sapient> assuming that you can only have one character
20100522 01:52:42< shadowmaster> Oui fits in 7-bit ASCII :/
20100522 01:53:37< shadowmaster> but yeah, things were quite problematic before Unicode encodings
20100522 01:53:48< Espreon> Sapient: Why so caring about French?
20100522 01:54:45< CIA-87> ai0867 * r42763 /trunk/utils/java/eclipse_plugin/src/wesnoth_eclipse_plugin/ (2 files in 2 dirs): Disallow an unordered collection from being used as an argument list
20100522 01:54:51< Sapient> Espreon: it's a long story but basically somebody dumped a huge translation project in my lap, told me it would be a piece of cake, then gave me only a few days to complete it
20100522 01:55:03< Espreon> Oh, wow.
20100522 01:55:07< Sapient> in other words, it was a setup job
20100522 01:56:39< Sapient> anyways, have fun. cya later
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20100522 01:59:15< shadowmaster> at least a spanish spaker would be confused if presented with Y/N rather than S/N (Sí/No)
20100522 01:59:35< shadowmaster> but they could manage it unless they've spent their lives away from civilizzation
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20100522 09:33:28< Ivanovic> moin
20100522 09:33:39< timotei> hello
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20100522 10:07:16< CIA-87> timotei * r42764 /trunk/utils/java/ (14 files in 7 dirs): eclipse plugin: "update site" update
20100522 10:13:21< Rhonda> isaac: ;)
20100522 10:14:09< timotei> fendrin:hey there:D
20100522 10:22:02< fendrin> timotei: hi
20100522 10:22:16< fendrin> timotei: my internet is very slow and fucked up at the moment.
20100522 10:22:22< timotei> fendrin: np.
20100522 10:22:52< timotei> fendrin: I managed to get the plugin work ok (i had to make it "download" some of the extra files - like the templates)
20100522 10:23:47< fendrin> timotei: Let me finish my work here (don't want to make a brain context switch right now) and I will test it from a clean eclipse in about 2 hours.
20100522 10:24:04< timotei> fendrin: ok. take your time
20100522 10:26:19< fendrin> timotei: But I can talk right now. Any problems?
20100522 10:26:43< timotei> fendrin: not at all. I'm currently documenting the preprocess command on the wiki, so people know how to use it
20100522 10:27:03< timotei> fendrin: and I think I'll start integrating the builder for the files
20100522 10:27:54< timotei> but If I rembember correctly, I have some questions
20100522 10:27:58< timotei> about the milestone: see preprocessed source of any file
20100522 10:28:04< timotei> where should be that shown?
20100522 10:28:24< fendrin> timotei: in the editor
20100522 10:29:37< fendrin> With syntax highlighting :-)
20100522 10:31:02< timotei> fendrin: well, for that we must create first the schema of a wml file, to see what tags are allowed, and so on..
20100522 10:32:42< fendrin> timotei: Right, that isn't in place now.
20100522 10:34:03< fendrin> timotei: Did you talk with crab and ettin about xml output?
20100522 10:34:14< timotei> fendrin: no.
20100522 10:34:29< timotei> fendrin: that was the discussion yesterday?
20100522 10:34:40< fendrin> timotei: Yes.
20100522 10:34:54< timotei> well, that was elias :D
20100522 10:34:58< timotei> not ettin :P
20100522 10:35:01< fendrin> oh, my bad.
20100522 10:35:09< timotei> np
20100522 10:35:24< fendrin> names are a problem for me.
20100522 10:35:40< fendrin> It took ages to learn that crab isn't spelled crap.
20100522 10:35:46< timotei> :P
20100522 10:36:01< timotei> elias: ping me when you are online
20100522 10:36:34< timotei> I need to think about the xml thingy.. maybe would help me too
20100522 10:37:33< fendrin> Yes, I guess that is very true. There are much things around that support xml.
20100522 10:38:13< fendrin> But elias suggested more than xml. But I didn't know the other formats.
20100522 10:38:52< timotei> yaml
20100522 10:39:08< timotei> I used a bit of that for ORM
20100522 10:39:21< fendrin> ORM?
20100522 10:39:31< timotei> object relational mappers
20100522 10:39:51< fendrin> Never heard off.
20100522 10:39:57< fendrin> s/off/of
20100522 10:39:58< timotei> is something like a "conversion" between databases and programming languages
20100522 10:40:12< timotei> you map a class 'Person' to a table in your dtabase 'Persons'
20100522 10:40:14< fendrin> like hybernating?
20100522 10:40:19< timotei> I think so
20100522 10:40:34< timotei> yes
20100522 10:41:00< fendrin> Damn, there are still 2 of my integration tests failing.
20100522 10:46:13< timotei> ok, I've added info about the preprocessor command line: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/PreprocessorRef
20100522 10:55:53< CIA-87> silene * r42765 /trunk/ (changelog src/serialization/preprocessor.cpp): Removed file testing from #ifdef due to case-insensitive file systems. Introduced #ifhave instead.
20100522 10:55:59< CIA-87> silene * r42766 /trunk/src/ (menu_events.cpp scripting/lua.cpp scripting/lua.hpp): Added an 'unsafe_lua' internal command for loading the 'package' package.
20100522 10:57:55< CIA-87> timotei * r42767 /trunk/utils/java/update_site/index.html: eclipse plugin: add timestamp to the update site
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20100522 11:55:00< CIA-87> timotei * r42768 /trunk/src/filesystem.cpp: fix recursive directory creation for relative paths
20100522 11:55:07< CIA-87> timotei * r42769 /trunk/src/game.cpp: some feedback for the users on the "preprocess" command
20100522 11:55:16-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: 107 bugs, 279 feature requests, 18 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
20100522 12:02:07< timotei> fendrin: about the importing of the maps...
20100522 12:02:28< fendrin> timotei: yes?
20100522 12:02:39< timotei> should that be a custom .. importer?
20100522 12:02:46< timotei> or just the normal "import" from eclipse?
20100522 12:02:55< timotei> of course, with *.map filter
20100522 12:03:07< fendrin> hmmm
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20100522 12:03:20< timotei> or should I create (the needed to be created although) context menu: "Wesnoth"?
20100522 12:03:39< timotei> and add there: import maps (provided the users executes the right click on the maps folder?)
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20100522 12:03:47< timotei> so that's a "better" way of handling importing
20100522 12:03:55< fendrin> yes, I would go for the context menu.
20100522 12:07:48< timotei> ok
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20100522 12:08:50< fendrin> timotei: After thinking twice it would be nice to have it in the wesnoth context menu and in the wesnoth menubar menu.
20100522 12:09:05< fendrin> Shouldn't be much extra work.
20100522 12:09:13< timotei> fendrin: yes, I think so
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20100522 15:24:44< CIA-87> elias * r42770 /trunk/data/tools/wesnoth/wmlparser2.py: Added a new Python WML parser based on wesnoth --preprocess output, making it much faster and more correct than the old one. (Tools like wmlunits still use the old parser right now though.)
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20100522 17:09:20< Gallaecio> ping Anyone able to hack Legend of Wesmere campaign
20100522 17:09:29< Gallaecio> In the scenario "Elves' Last Stand"
20100522 17:09:48< Crab_> hi, Gallaecio
20100522 17:09:54< Crab_> something is wrong in there ?
20100522 17:10:03< Gallaecio> The title is not dispalyed when the map is. Is that just me?
20100522 17:10:08< Gallaecio> Hi, Crab_
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20100522 17:11:45< Crab_> where it's not displayed ? can you explain more ?
20100522 17:15:06< zookeeper> probably he means that some [story] [part] lacks show_title=yes
20100522 17:15:45< zookeeper> and looks like he's right
20100522 17:15:53< Gallaecio> When you start scenarios, normaly the map is displayed, showing the path followed in the story, and the title is displayed there.
20100522 17:16:14< Gallaecio> Is that intended or a bug?
20100522 17:16:27< Gallaecio> (the lack of the title in this ocasion, I mean)
20100522 17:16:39< Crab_> yes, I see. looks like a bug
20100522 17:17:13< zookeeper> i'll fix it
20100522 17:17:20< Crab_> thanks
20100522 17:18:01< CIA-87> zookeeper * r42771 /trunk/data/campaigns/Legend_of_Wesmere/scenarios/07_Elves_last_stand.cfg: Added a missing show_title=yes.
20100522 17:18:33< CIA-87> zookeeper * r42772 /branches/1.8/data/campaigns/Legend_of_Wesmere/scenarios/07_Elves_last_stand.cfg: Added a missing show_title=yes.
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20100522 17:20:35< Gallaecio> Thanks.
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20100522 18:28:21< elias> hm, can i add a task for myself on the gna.org task manager?
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20100522 18:53:39< zookeeper> elias, why not?
20100522 18:54:52< elias> just wanted to make sure, since i forgot if you have any guidelines about it :)
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20100522 18:56:00< zookeeper> i doubt there'd be any sort of a problem with doing that
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20100522 22:02:06< CIA-87> elias * r42773 /trunk/data/tools/wesnoth/wmlparser2.py: [python wml parser]Added ability to parse strings (over a tempfile). And started adding a few convenience methods.
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20100522 22:41:03< norbert_> hi
20100522 22:41:05< CIA-87> eleazar * r42774 /trunk/data/core/images/terrain/castle/ (6 files): adjusted the castle-to-water transitions to fit other dirt color better and removed grass.
20100522 22:41:14< norbert_> is the login procedure for wesnothd going to change?
20100522 22:41:31< norbert_> I think I remember someone wrote something along these lines?
20100522 22:49:01< CIA-87> espreon * r42775 /trunk/data/tools/wesnoth/wmlparser2.py: Set svn:eol-style on wmlparser2.py.
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20100522 23:20:33-!- Tigge_ is now known as Tigge
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20100522 23:52:11< norbert_> off-topic but quite funny ;) http://hyperboleandahalf.blogspot.com/2010/04/alot-is-better-than-you-at-everything.html
--- Log closed Sun May 23 00:00:18 2010