--- Log opened Sun May 30 00:00:10 2010
20100530 00:00:15< alink> yes, indeed, pixel shaders allow it
20100530 00:01:01< alink> i just fear platform compatibility problems, but OTOH shaders are well established now
20100530 00:01:24< silene> alink: note that you need z-sorting anyway, otherwise you can't have half-transparency (not sure if it is currently used in wesnoth)
20100530 00:01:57< alink> yes used by shadow, ellispe and half-invisible unit
20100530 00:02:16< silene> and submerge too
20100530 00:02:24< silene> (somehow)
20100530 00:02:49< alink> IIRC with shader it's by using the "discard" GLSL command or something like that
20100530 00:02:55< alink> ?
20100530 00:03:14< silene> either that or simply put back the previous z value
20100530 00:03:31< alink> ah yes, that would works too
20100530 00:03:46 * alink only tried shader coding few months ago
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20100530 00:07:04< cjhopman_> don't really need z-sorting... just draw transparent stuff last
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20100530 00:07:38< alink> cjhopman_: you mean half-transparent ?
20100530 00:07:50< alink> because all our sprite have transparent part
20100530 00:07:57< cjhopman_> yeah
20100530 00:08:12< alink> and they even have all half-transparent parts if you count their shadow
20100530 00:08:33< alink> but i suppose you could pull them out of the base image
20100530 00:09:29< shadowmaster> someone said shadow?
20100530 00:09:59< alink> but then I realize that shadow must use special z-value : always on top of underlying terrain but under the unit
20100530 00:10:43< alink> pfff perfect false 3D is hard compared to true 3D
20100530 00:11:38< cjhopman_> all you need is that half-transparent stuff is drawn after the stuff behind it, and that half-transparent stuff doesn't overlap each other... or rather if it does overlap it should be drawn in back-to-front order
20100530 00:11:52< cjhopman_> that can often be done just by drawing half-transparent stuff last
20100530 00:14:14< cjhopman_> for example, draw terrain, then ellipses, then units
20100530 00:15:07< cjhopman_> which would be correct unless a half-transparent unit (or part of one) overlaps the lower (closer) part of an ellipse
20100530 00:15:58< alink> most terrrains have half-transparent shadows (trees, castles) :-(
20100530 00:17:07< alink> *most non-flat terrains (but they are the interesting ones for the z-buffer stuff)
20100530 00:17:58< alink> transitions also use alpha a lot but that's not a problem
20100530 00:18:27< cjhopman_> hm
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20100530 00:20:58< cjhopman_> i would just say that shadows only fall on terrain, not units/ellipses/whatever else... in which case just draw half-transparent terrain stuff before those things but after opaque terrain
20100530 00:22:34< alink> you mean scan the image and split the opaque and half-transparent parts, that sound hackish
20100530 00:23:07< alink> also someone may use half-transparent part in terrain other than shadow
20100530 00:23:27< alink> smoke from village or something like that
20100530 00:23:46< alink> he could split the image manually though
20100530 00:24:06< cjhopman_> true
20100530 00:25:18< cjhopman_> smoke should be drawn in the correct order
20100530 00:25:35< alink> have we some big half-transparent colored crystal monolith? Could looks cool when unit are behind it
20100530 00:26:06< alink> or some icy stalactites where you see unit's feet through ice 
20100530 00:28:08 * alink just noticed a funny alpha/layer bug when units are on foggy impassable moutains
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20100530 00:30:23< alink> s/stalactites/stalagmites 
20100530 00:30:26< alink> :-)
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20100530 00:56:16< CIA-86> ivanovic * r43040 /trunk/ (28 files in 27 dirs): updated Latvian translation
20100530 00:56:27< CIA-86> ivanovic * r43041 /branches/1.8/ (4 files in 3 dirs): updated Latvian translation
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20100530 03:28:22< AI0867> for some reason "clear all labels" is only available in MP, even though set label and set team label exist in SP too
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20100530 04:47:52-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: 1.8.2 planned on 31st May, stringfreeze for branches/1.8! | 114 bugs, 281 feature requests, 17 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
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20100530 04:54:44< CIA-86> alink * r43042 /trunk/src/ (display.cpp display.hpp): remove the unsused (and slower) TDRAWING_BUFFER_USES_VECTOR code path
20100530 04:54:49< CIA-86> alink * r43043 /trunk/src/ (display.cpp display.hpp): 
20100530 04:54:49< CIA-86> Start to simplify layer engine and fix an old bug:
20100530 04:54:49< CIA-86> - use correct y value for ordering layers in the same group (fix bug: big unit
20100530 04:54:49< CIA-86> on keep was under or above north-east tower, depending of the x parity)
20100530 04:54:50< CIA-86> - sort layers in group at insertion instead of rendering phase.
20100530 04:54:50< CIA-86> - use much needed foreach syntax
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20100530 04:59:18< Espreon> alink: I þank þee.
20100530 05:01:25< Upth> I think you meant "I þank ðee"
20100530 05:01:59< Espreon> Upth: Thorn and eth are interchangeable in English.
20100530 05:02:16< Upth> but not in icelandic
20100530 05:02:31< Espreon> Are we speaking Icelandic? No.
20100530 05:02:39-!- Upthorn is now known as orn
20100530 05:02:40-!- Upth is now known as Upthorn
20100530 05:02:42-!- orn is now known as Upth
20100530 05:02:59< Upthorn> Are you sure?
20100530 05:03:15< Espreon> Yeah.
20100530 05:06:29< Upthorn> Ok then.
20100530 05:08:22-!- King_Elendil [~King_Elen@75.143.233.138] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100530 05:08:26< alink> Espreon: ?
20100530 05:08:46< Espreon> "I þank þee" = real English for "I thank thee".
20100530 05:09:02< Espreon> þ = thorn = "th" when standing for dental fricatives
20100530 05:09:37< alink> Espreon: de rien
20100530 05:10:04< Espreon> No comprendo francés.
20100530 05:10:31< King_Elendil> lol
20100530 05:10:40< Espreon> No deseo comprender francés.
20100530 05:10:48< alink> which means "it was nothing", which is the polite reply to "merci"(=thank you)
20100530 05:11:06< Espreon> I see.
20100530 05:11:23< alink> as in you don't owe me anyting
20100530 05:12:09< Espreon> I know, I know, like «de nada».
20100530 05:14:03< alink> mmh Nāda is also the "spiritual sound that fills the entire cosmos", intersting...  
20100530 05:14:54< Espreon> Uh, what? Spanish does not have macra.
20100530 05:15:09< Espreon> Ah, that.
20100530 05:15:10< alink> it was in ancient Indian metaphysic
20100530 05:15:42< alink> knowing you, I assumed possible that you speak that :-p
20100530 05:16:08< Espreon> Uh, there are many languages spoken in India.
20100530 05:16:49< Espreon> Of course, I would only care about Sanskrit... and maybe Toda (for having so many trills).
20100530 05:17:01< alink> well, there are many languages spoken everywhere, even belgium has its local dialects
20100530 05:17:26< alink> and it's much smaller than india
20100530 05:17:36< Espreon> The USA has a shitload of languages, but people only care about two (sometimes).
20100530 05:17:40< alink> plus we have 3 official languages
20100530 05:17:41< Espreon> ... so most of the time, only one.
20100530 05:18:16< Espreon> We have no official language...
20100530 05:18:57< Upthorn> people can't even agree on the spelling of catsup/ketchup
20100530 05:18:57< alink> Espreon: in fact belgium could be a nice place for you. Main political wars are about language's use :-)
20100530 05:19:29< Espreon> I only care about Serbia at the moment.
20100530 05:19:37< Espreon> I need to prevent the Latin alphabet from taking over.
20100530 05:19:51< Espreon> ... and Serbia is a magical place, for major things happen there.
20100530 05:19:55< Espreon> ... such as WWI.
20100530 05:19:57< Espreon> LOL.
20100530 05:20:32< Espreon> Well, started there.
20100530 05:20:34< Espreon> But, whatever.
20100530 05:21:51< Espreon> alink: Besides, too much Frenchieness there, and it is too close to France.
20100530 05:22:45< alink> We, belgians feel very different from French
20100530 05:22:55< Espreon> How so?
20100530 05:23:21< alink> well the mentality is different.
20100530 05:23:33< Espreon> How so?
20100530 05:23:36 * Espreon love the up key.
20100530 05:24:07< alink> and i am speaking about french-speaking belgians, Dutch-speaking are even more different 
20100530 05:25:12< alink> Let's just say that it's not the same country, we just speak same language (and with small differences)
20100530 05:25:25< alink> maybe a bit like Canada and USA
20100530 05:25:53< alink> but i never visited those countries, so I may be wrong
20100530 05:26:14< Espreon> ... and I've never been outside of this place..
20100530 05:26:32< Gambit> Espreon: What about trees?
20100530 05:26:36< Gambit> And grass?
20100530 05:26:39< Espreon> alink: To most Americans, the Canadians are "those damn Canadians"!
20100530 05:26:48< Espreon> Gambit: Hwæt?
20100530 05:27:53< alink> Espreon: yeah the mocking of Canadians by Americans is similar to the mocking of Belgians by French 
20100530 05:27:56< Espreon> Gambit: "This place" = "America"
20100530 05:29:29< alink> However it's changing a bit these days, because we export more actors, singers etc to France
20100530 05:30:12< King_Elendil> alink, you're in Belgium?
20100530 05:30:20< alink> King_Elendil: yep
20100530 05:30:25< King_Elendil> cool
20100530 05:30:35< alink> yep :-)
20100530 05:30:42< Upthorn> this conversation has somehow reminded me of http://strangemaps.wordpress.com/2009/02/26/362-greek-to-me-mapping-mutual-incomprehension/
20100530 05:35:38< Gambit> Upthorn: That is awesome.
20100530 05:35:49< Gambit> But not as awesome as your wesnoth branch <3
20100530 05:36:02 * Espreon rolls his eyes
20100530 05:36:07< Espreon> You children and your MP.
20100530 05:36:20< Gambit> Espreon: It'll do wonders for SP too.
20100530 05:36:24< Espreon> Such as?
20100530 05:36:38< Upthorn> my changes don't even work for MP yet
20100530 05:36:40< Gambit> Sequel campaigns, unlockables, a single player RPG.
20100530 05:36:46< King_Elendil> Gambit, you're not sleeping :/
20100530 05:36:53< Gambit> King_Elendil: You asked what I was up to.
20100530 05:36:58< Gambit> I'm working my way there.
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20100530 05:37:13< King_Elendil> 9.9 
20100530 05:37:21< Espreon> Gambit: What exactly do you mean by "sequel campaigns"? Campaigns that cannot be unlocked till one defeats the one that preceeds it?
20100530 05:37:40< Gambit> Espreon: No. A campaign that changes based on what happened in the first one.
20100530 05:37:49< Espreon> Ah, I see.
20100530 05:37:54< Gambit> And yeah I realize you could do that already by merging them into one :\
20100530 05:38:13< Gambit> There's also MP SP crosstalk.
20100530 05:38:52< Gambit> Espreon: Even a campaign that changes based on the last time you played it would be neat.
20100530 05:39:03< Espreon> Nothing useful there for me... now.
20100530 05:39:04< Gambit> Adaptive difficulty has been mentioned.
20100530 05:39:49< Gambit> Except instead of getting easier for newbies, it'd get harder for vets.
20100530 05:39:51< Espreon> Maybe when I get to my second campaign or afterwards.
20100530 05:41:24< Upthorn> here's another awesome map, though
20100530 05:41:26< Upthorn> http://strangemaps.wordpress.com/2008/11/15/329-chaffinch-map-of-scotland/
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20100530 05:43:06< Espreon> Gambit: Have I ever forced you to play TSL?
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20100530 05:43:21< Gambit> shikadibot: TSL?
20100530 05:43:21< shikadibot> TSL: The Silver Lands
20100530 05:43:29< Gambit> Never heard of it so no I guess not.
20100530 05:43:36< Espreon> It beeth my campaign.
20100530 05:43:40< Espreon> It has some nice features.
20100530 05:43:47< Espreon> ... but it is in developmental hell.
20100530 05:43:57< Gambit> Unless it so traumatic my brain erased it and forgot.
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20100530 05:44:54< Gambit> Espreon: What's it about?
20100530 05:45:31< Espreon> It ends the whole Chaos Empire thing on Irdya.
20100530 05:45:51< Espreon> So, it takes place in the same period of time as IftU and AtS.
20100530 05:46:11< Espreon> Well, era, rather.
20100530 05:46:12< Gambit> neither of which I have played
20100530 05:46:29< Espreon> Seriously, you never played IftU?
20100530 05:46:36 * Gambit dislikes single player
20100530 05:46:56< Espreon> But, it's one of shadowmaster's addons!
20100530 05:47:01< Gambit> I know.
20100530 05:47:15< Gambit> Single player is all set in stoney.
20100530 05:47:22< Gambit> No matter what I do the story will go the way it goes.
20100530 05:47:40< Espreon> Anyway, highlights of TSL: multifloor system, and lore reviewer.
20100530 05:47:53< Gambit> It's not fun to create single player content either.
20100530 05:47:59< Espreon> ... and I mean a real multifloor system.
20100530 05:48:03< Gambit> Multifloor. Stairs?
20100530 05:48:12< Gambit> So is it like wesband?
20100530 05:48:12< Espreon> Yeah.
20100530 05:48:15< Espreon> IDK.
20100530 05:48:16< Gambit> Or the floors are all on one map?
20100530 05:48:22< Espreon> No!
20100530 05:48:37< Espreon> Just check it out and see.
20100530 05:48:42< Gambit> How can it be neither? :s
20100530 05:48:45 * Espreon has a nice test scenario for it.
20100530 05:48:51< Espreon> I never played Wesband.
20100530 05:48:54< Espreon> So, I wouldn't know.
20100530 05:49:01< Gambit> Espreon: s/wesband/diablo/
20100530 05:49:03 * Espreon hates MP.
20100530 05:49:06< Espreon> Never played it.
20100530 05:49:08< Gambit> wesband is just diablo for wesnoth
20100530 05:49:09< Gambit> :\
20100530 05:49:52< Espreon> Name most mainstream games and I'll say the same thing.
20100530 05:49:52< Gambit> Espreon: Can you conduct a battle across multiple floors simultaneously?
20100530 05:50:04< Espreon> No.
20100530 05:50:15< Gambit> So you move your whole army from floor to floor as one?
20100530 05:50:58< Espreon> Yeah. Once your leader teleports, your units are shoved into the recall list, and you pull them out with summoning stones.
20100530 05:51:15< Espreon> It's free...
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20100530 05:52:01< Gambit> I wouldn't really call that multifloor then.
20100530 05:52:08< Gambit> Can you go back to previous floors at least?
20100530 05:52:11< Espreon> Yeah.
20100530 05:52:40< Gambit> Espreon: Have you considered combining all the floors into one large map?
20100530 05:52:47< Espreon> Ewwwww... no!
20100530 05:53:02< Gambit> That honestly seems less cheesy to me.
20100530 05:53:18< Gambit> The AI would have issues I guess.
20100530 05:53:32< Espreon> Yeah.
20100530 05:53:51< Gambit> Espreon: Have you considered some clever manipulation of [store_units] and [replace_map]?
20100530 05:54:04< Espreon> Yeah, that's how it works.
20100530 05:54:19< Gambit> So then why not multifloor battles?
20100530 05:54:32< Espreon> Uh, I would need a separate display?
20100530 05:54:36< Gambit> No.
20100530 05:54:48< Gambit> Just give them menu items that let them move their "view" between floors.
20100530 05:55:02< Espreon> Maybe.
20100530 05:55:53< Gambit> moving units between floors would get a little bit more complicated (on the coding side of things)
20100530 05:56:09< Gambit> but still easy
20100530 05:56:50< Espreon> You know, you can just experience TSL's features yourself... it even has a nice test scenario...
20100530 05:57:09< Gambit> you'd just store the unit into floor_x_units[$floor_x_units.length].unit
20100530 05:57:17< Gambit> Espreon: Where?
20100530 05:57:29< Espreon> TSL is in Wesnoth-UMC-Dev's SVN repository.
20100530 05:57:36< Gambit> ehhh
20100530 05:57:47< Espreon> Gambit: http://wesnoth-umc-dev.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/wesnoth-umc-dev/trunk/The_Silver_Lands.tar.gz?view=tar
20100530 05:57:53< Espreon> Thank God for that feature.
20100530 05:57:58< Gambit> oh nice
20100530 05:58:05< Gambit> yeah. that is good.
20100530 05:58:07< Espreon> ... and of course, you'll need 1.9.
20100530 05:58:29< Gambit> which is a job for another day.
20100530 05:58:43< Gambit> Good night.
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20100530 06:11:18< Espreon> 02:46 <Bzar> Oh. Well right now I'm just looking for different active games to email the developers of
20100530 06:11:21< Espreon> 02:46 <Bzar> and get tips for development
20100530 06:11:23< Espreon> Sorry...
20100530 06:11:25< Espreon> 02:47 <Bzar> like, good habits to get into, writing maintainable code, and so on.
20100530 06:11:29< Espreon> 02:47 <Bzar> I haven't quite done this before.
20100530 06:11:31< Espreon> Damn right-click.
20100530 06:13:30< Espreon> Well, since that is out, would anyone be willing to give this guy advice?
20100530 06:21:25< AI0867> fendrin: never mind my previous message, that was my code screwing things up
20100530 06:27:00< alink> Espreon: contributing to a big project is different that developing its own little game
20100530 06:27:18< Espreon> True.
20100530 06:30:41< CIA-86> ai0867 * r43044 /trunk/src/ (4 files): Make clear labels work in SP, as you can set labels there too
20100530 06:30:49< CIA-86> ai0867 * r43045 /trunk/ (changelog src/mouse_events.cpp): Stop hidden weapons (attack_weight=0) from skewing the best weapon selection
20100530 06:30:58< CIA-86> ai0867 * r43046 /trunk/ (10 files in 3 dirs): Add 'immutable' key to [label], defaulting to true (bug #16078)
20100530 06:34:57< alink> Espreon: shadowmaster has posted a nice story about wesnoth's beginning on its blog
20100530 06:35:39< Espreon> I shall look for it... later.
20100530 06:37:47< AI0867> YogiHH: never mind my last message
20100530 07:17:03-!- Daltx [~Daltx@CPE001e5840eaf6-CM00195ee19c52.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit []
20100530 07:22:16< Espreon> alink: http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?p=431231#p431231 ... At least include the translation mark.
20100530 07:24:01< alink> yeah, but he never used it in its addon. So i didn't want to distract it from the point
20100530 07:24:08< alink> s/its/his
20100530 07:24:14< Espreon> Ah, I see.
20100530 07:24:22< alink> s/it/him
20100530 07:24:50< Espreon> Uh, why do you use "its" as the possessive form of "he"?
20100530 07:25:01< alink> Smurf are 'it' or 'he' ?
20100530 07:25:20< Espreon> ...
20100530 07:25:25< Espreon> Not funny.
20100530 07:25:29< alink> Espreon: french don't make such difference
20100530 07:25:57< Espreon> I see...
20100530 07:26:01< alink> so i often do the mistake
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20100530 07:26:37< alink> but, more seriously English use 'it' for animal right ?
20100530 07:27:08< alink> then what is the rule for fantastic being not really human ?
20100530 07:27:26< Espreon> "It" is used to refere to animals/babies of unknown origin and inanimate objects.
20100530 07:27:30< Espreon> *refer
20100530 07:27:36< ancestral> Sometimes people use "they"
20100530 07:27:36< Espreon> *unknown gender
20100530 07:27:37< Espreon> LOL.
20100530 07:27:57< ancestral> If they're sentient, I would use they
20100530 07:28:08 * Espreon rolls his eyes
20100530 07:28:36< alink> unknown gender use 'it'?
20100530 07:28:38 * ancestral shrugs
20100530 07:28:55< ancestral> Is it sentient?
20100530 07:29:07< Espreon> If so, use "he".
20100530 07:29:13< ancestral> I like it
20100530 07:29:14< alink> ok
20100530 07:29:15< ancestral> er
20100530 07:29:17< ancestral> they
20100530 07:29:18< ancestral> but
20100530 07:29:19< ancestral> whatever
20100530 07:30:48< Espreon> alink: If you are talking about a baby (before the gender is determined... you know... until shortly after it is born)/fetus/whatever, an animal (if you don't know its gender or don't care), or an inanimate object, use "it". For a human of unknown gender, use "he".
20100530 07:30:59< Espreon> ... and kitty would probably kill me if she saw me say that, but, IDC.
20100530 07:31:31< alink> btw :correction, there is a 'it'  'he' difference in french, but it's less strongly used
20100530 07:32:12< Espreon> ... or you could use "one", but this can be a little annoying with possession.
20100530 07:33:00< Espreon> Well, only use "one" if you are talking about a hypothetical person.
20100530 07:35:19< alink> in french I think that the 'it' form is not very nice for animal, it's almost equivalent to object
20100530 07:36:00< Espreon> Unless we know its gender/don't care, then... yeahz.
20100530 07:36:03< alink> so it's somehow ok for a random animal, but not to the beloved dog of your friend
20100530 07:36:16< Espreon> Honestly, I refer to almost all dogs with "it".
20100530 07:36:20< Espreon> * *dogs*
20100530 07:36:41< Espreon> Especially the ones with the pushed-in faces.
20100530 07:37:09< alink> that's a bit racist
20100530 07:37:24< Espreon> LOL, wut?
20100530 07:37:24< shadowmaster> I refer to dogs by their gender if I'm well familiarized with them
20100530 07:37:27< shadowmaster> same to cats
20100530 07:38:01< shadowmaster> instead of "it"
20100530 07:38:27< alink> shadowmaster: you mean with the equivalent spanish form ?
20100530 07:38:41< shadowmaster> I mean in English
20100530 07:38:48< alink> ok
20100530 07:38:50< shadowmaster> in Spanish there's no "it"
20100530 07:40:45< shadowmaster> anyway, off to bed, good night
20100530 07:41:05< Espreon> What about "lo" and "la"?
20100530 07:41:15< shadowmaster> uhm.
20100530 07:41:26< shadowmaster> they are...complicated 8)
20100530 07:41:33< shadowmaster> good night, already
20100530 07:41:38< alink> shadowmaster: gn
20100530 07:41:40< Espreon> Sí, dice lo pobre.
20100530 07:41:50< shadowmaster> that doesn't even make sense
20100530 07:41:51< Espreon> Goodnight.
20100530 07:41:55< Espreon> I know, huh?
20100530 07:42:09< Espreon> Well, I was intending it to say: "Yes, says the poor one".
20100530 07:42:26< shadowmaster> "Sí, dice el pobre."
20100530 07:42:36< Espreon> shadowmaster: Well, I prefer to use the neuter article.
20100530 07:42:43< shadowmaster> I don't.
20100530 07:42:48< shadowmaster> particularly when it doesn't make sense
20100530 07:42:59< Espreon> You don't make sense.
20100530 07:43:06< Espreon> Damn AC adapter...
20100530 07:43:14 * shadowmaster disappears for real
20100530 07:46:06< Espreon> Meh, I haven't used "lo" as an article for a while.
20100530 07:46:33< cjhopman_> So, when a baby is born... is the phrase "it's a boy" correct?
20100530 07:46:42< Espreon> alink: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/66/BostonTerrierBrindleStand_w.jpg ... Do you see it? What do you think that I think?
20100530 07:46:50< Espreon> cjhopman_: Yeah.
20100530 07:47:00< cjhopman_> the person saying it obviously knows the baby is a boy when saying the sentence
20100530 07:47:23< cjhopman_> unless they find out that information between "it" and "boy"
20100530 07:47:27< cjhopman_> i guess
20100530 07:48:06< alink> Espreon: my mother has a similar dog and he is nice and smart
20100530 07:48:31< cjhopman_> that dog is definitely an "it"
20100530 07:48:43< Espreon> cjhopman_: Correct!
20100530 07:49:01< alink> Espreon: you will love to know that it's a "French Bulldog"
20100530 07:49:26< Espreon> alink: Uh, that was a Boston Terrier.
20100530 07:49:44< alink> yeah i mean my mother's dog
20100530 07:49:46< Espreon> alink, cjhopman_: Now, what do I think when I see this: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5a/Canis_lupus_265b.jpg
20100530 07:50:10< alink> Espreon: but they are very similar
20100530 07:50:33< Espreon> Out of mein vay!
20100530 07:51:06< Espreon> cjhopman_: With the knowing that the baby is a boy, well... maybe other people wouldn't know... IDK.
20100530 07:51:52 * Espreon still awaits alink and cjhopman_'s answers.
20100530 07:52:20< alink> about the yeti ?
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20100530 07:52:33< Espreon> alink: Uh, that... is a wolf.
20100530 07:53:12< alink> wolf don't exist, that just story for kids
20100530 07:53:34< alink> yeti are real
20100530 07:53:35< Espreon> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9f/Wolf_distr.gif ... O RLLY?
20100530 07:53:48< Espreon> alink: Anyway, just answer my damn question.
20100530 07:54:25< Espreon> alink: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/13/Jersey_Devil_Philadelphia_Post_1909.jpg ... It awaits... in thy backyard...
20100530 07:55:04< alink> I guess they are 'it' stuff
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20100530 07:56:28< Espreon> alink: No, þou art just a monster.
20100530 07:56:44< Espreon> Anyway, the correct answer was: "Happiness"
20100530 07:57:05< Espreon> Wolves are beautiful creatures, unlike those ugly dogs with the pushed-in faces.
20100530 07:57:53< alink> still racist ;-p
20100530 07:58:25< Espreon> Different types of dogs are classified as breeds, not races.
20100530 07:58:51< alink> and wolf is a breed too ?
20100530 07:59:13< Espreon> Wolf: Canis lupus
20100530 07:59:20< Espreon> Dog: Canis lupus familiaris
20100530 07:59:36< Espreon> So, dog = subspecies.
20100530 07:59:39< Espreon> So, IDC>
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20100530 07:59:42< Espreon> *.
20100530 08:04:29< Espreon> alink: IDK, I'm just not a dog person...
20100530 08:04:42 * Espreon is scared of dogs...
20100530 08:04:45< Espreon> Jeß...
20100530 08:05:36< alink> that's specist ;)
20100530 08:05:56< Espreon> Well, I see your point, but, there's only one problem...
20100530 08:06:25< alink> dog have various personality, probably more various than for other wild animals
20100530 08:06:39< alink> (because of their master's influence)
20100530 08:06:52< Espreon> Uh, you're supposed to ask me what the problem is.
20100530 08:07:31< alink> ok, what is your problem?
20100530 08:07:35< Espreon> I don't care.
20100530 08:08:11< alink> but you talk about dogs since a while :-)
20100530 08:08:37< Espreon> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caracal ... I'd like one of those, but... getting one would probably be a hassle, and it would be a hassle to let it roam so that it can eat.
20100530 08:13:31< Espreon> alink: Do you think that megabats are cool?
20100530 08:14:17< alink> I never encounter one
20100530 08:14:27< Espreon> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megabat
20100530 08:14:33< Espreon> I never encountered any type of bat.
20100530 08:14:52< Espreon> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spectacled_Flying-fox ... This one especially looks cool.
20100530 08:15:33< alink> i had a bit in my room twice, weird animal
20100530 08:16:14< alink> looked very fragile in hands when capturing it to free it 
20100530 08:16:30< alink> (was entered by window)
20100530 08:17:27< alink> mmh in fact, now I think you could catch rabies from bats
20100530 08:18:07< cjhopman_> some pics of one of those caracals as a pet http://www.animalorphanagekenya.org/members/brandy_for_breakfast.php
20100530 08:18:11< cjhopman_> scroll to the bottom
20100530 08:18:58< alink> i also was bitten by a mole when i was a kid. Also by trying to free him (entered by door)
20100530 08:19:22< alink> also very weird in hands (it 'digs' between your fingers)
20100530 08:19:34< Espreon> I was never stung or bitten... except for one time.
20100530 08:19:44< Espreon> I was bitten by a dog of course.
20100530 08:19:52< alink> of course
20100530 08:22:45< alink> last summer, I was attacked twice by the same wasp's nest. And this summer I have a bee's nest in my roof (I hear them at night)
20100530 08:23:05< alink> possibly bumblebee, not sure yet
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20100530 08:37:34< Espreon> Goodbyez.
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20100530 10:09:02< Ivanovic> moin
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20100530 10:29:31< CIA-86> ivanovic * r43047 /trunk/po/wesnoth-dm/ja.po: updated Japanese translation
20100530 10:29:34< CIA-86> ivanovic * r43048 /branches/1.8/po/wesnoth-dm/ja.po: updated Japanese translation
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20100530 10:31:22< kevg> hello
20100530 10:31:28< Crab_> hi, kevg
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20100530 10:47:28< mordante> servus
20100530 10:47:52-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: 1.8.2 planned on 31st May, stringfreeze for branches/1.8! | 114 bugs, 280 feature requests, 17 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
20100530 10:49:01< Ivanovic> hi mordante
20100530 10:49:05< mordante> hi Ivanovic 
20100530 10:49:12< Ivanovic> mordante: do you have any fixes for 1.8.2 left?
20100530 10:49:17< mordante> Ivanovic, no
20100530 10:49:51< Ivanovic> okay
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20100530 11:05:27< kevg> boucman: hi. Have you read my yesterday's message to you?
20100530 11:05:45< boucman> kevg quickly...
20100530 11:06:17< boucman> IIUC (but that's worth checking) the resource:: and the display-> argument should point to the same thing
20100530 11:06:33< mordante> fendrin, timotei I agree with billynux regarding LyX, I used if for quite a while and it works nicely
20100530 11:06:34< boucman> i'd like to understand why the third one is NULL though
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20100530 11:07:16< mordante> fendrin, timotei but it's until you dive in to LaTeX (and addons) until you really learn how powerful (La)TeX really is
20100530 11:08:31< kevg> if [if] contains [have_unit] and unit_map is null it returns false. Probably, when first scenario starts resources::unit_map is NULL and not NULL when it isn't first scenario
20100530 11:09:03< fendrin> mordante: Right, but I don't want timotei to delay his work for learning latex first.
20100530 11:09:21< boucman> maybe [if] in pre-map events....
20100530 11:09:50< kevg> and if there is no [have_unit] unit_map ignored
20100530 11:10:16< mordante> fendrin, agree with that and LyX is rather fast to learn, but it limits the power of (La)Tex a lot
20100530 11:10:27< boucman> kevg: ok could you remind me what we had decided (if anything wrt that problem)
20100530 11:10:36< mordante> fendrin, not a bad thing per se
20100530 11:12:27< fendrin> mordante: No, it doesn't. It comes with the integrated possibility to edit the latex code directly where it brings benefits over the frontend.
20100530 11:13:30< mordante> fendrin, IIRC it doesn't render the raw TeX code in WYSIWYM 
20100530 11:14:04< mordante> I mean it shows the raw TeX code not how it's rendered in the final version
20100530 11:14:17< kevg> boucman: I wrote a nested loop in internal_conditional_passed and you sad that its breaking function philosophy and I should try to pass recall units in unit_map. But, its very difficult for example because of recursion in [if]. And you supposed than unit_map as first argument probably mistake if function signature. And I explored all possible call of conditional_passed.
20100530 11:14:49< boucman> ok, got it
20100530 11:15:24< boucman> so the unit argument passed seems to be either null, or a singleton we could get through the appropriate code
20100530 11:15:54< fendrin> mordante: Well, what you see is only a rough abstraction of what you get in lyx. Some of the hand edited things can't be seen in the preview, but not using lyx at all doesn't show you any preview so I can't see the limitation.
20100530 11:16:25< boucman> the question, is : can we detect ourselves that the singleton isn't initialized and react accordingly
20100530 11:16:37< boucman> if yes, removing the argument would easy
20100530 11:17:05< kevg> there is a NULL checking inside internal_conditional_passed
20100530 11:17:25< mordante> fendrin, it's just that /I/ prefer to have a tool that shows all rendered or all raw
20100530 11:17:38< kevg> its possible to change it slightly to remove argument
20100530 11:17:57< mordante> the problem is when I want to modify some raw code in a .lyx file the file is messy since it expects to be edited by a tool
20100530 11:18:36< mordante> not that I'm against LyX, I just personally started to enjoy LaTeX more once I started to play with the raw code
20100530 11:18:50< kevg> I think we simply could replace unit_map with resources::units
20100530 11:19:08< boucman> kevg: sounds good
20100530 11:19:23< boucman> hmm
20100530 11:19:31< boucman> let me thing
20100530 11:19:43< mordante> and I'm currently working on some documents with a lot of macros to optionally showing parts of a document or hide them, depending on the reader
20100530 11:21:22< fendrin> boucman, kevg: Note that an editor that supports several opened maps at once (what the current one does) needs to handle more than one unit_map at once if unit placement feature is going to be implemented and not hacked somewhere beside the current unit rendering.
20100530 11:22:25< boucman> kevg: what was your patch number, plz
20100530 11:23:00< fendrin> mordante: Agreed, lyx isn't the holy gral, it's just a good start to learn latex and having acceptable results in a short time, that is why I recommended it to timotei.
20100530 11:23:25< kevg> boucman: 1672
20100530 11:23:36< mordante> fendrin, agreed
20100530 11:26:34< ancestral> Say it's really not a big deal, but there's some portraits that are missing backgrounds, and I've got all the missing files, I'm just waiting for someone to take a look
20100530 11:26:39< boucman> fendrin: how do you handle ressources.hpp structure in the editor ?
20100530 11:26:40< ancestral> https://gna.org/bugs/index.php?15724
20100530 11:27:19< fendrin> boucman: Well, everytime a map_context switch is done I reset the pointers to the new structures.
20100530 11:27:46< ancestral> I haven't heard anything… so here's to hoping someone will read this in the irclogs
20100530 11:28:06< boucman> fendrin: so we could rely on that and use resources::units ? or is there an other way...
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20100530 11:29:15< fendrin> boucman: yes, there is no point against it. I just don't like global singletons. Especially since we have a mixture of local and global structures that have to point to the same thing right now.
20100530 11:29:18< boucman> ancestral: i've assigned the bug to jertrel, you might want to /msg him if he's on IRC (he only join #wesnoth chans sporadically) or PM him on the forum
20100530 11:29:27< ancestral> I did once
20100530 11:29:33< ancestral> He was… preoccupied :(
20100530 11:29:39< fendrin> boucman: It was really hacky to get everything right, regarding the rendering of units for example.
20100530 11:29:47< ancestral> I guess I just got him at a bad time?
20100530 11:29:58< boucman> happens...
20100530 11:30:45< boucman> fendrin: ok, if that's fine with you, we'll use resource:: that way you can grep it to get rid of it when the editor needs it
20100530 11:30:48< boucman> is that fine ?
20100530 11:30:49< ancestral> I guess I'll send him a PM. Again, not a big deal. Thanks
20100530 11:31:53< fendrin> boucman: What I mean is: I had local unit rendering related datas and global pointers. And I needed to introduce fake gamestate, time of day, etc. To get the thing working. Since the rendering code access those things through the resources system and won't do without them.
20100530 11:32:53< fendrin> boucman: What I wished to be in place was a layer between such gamestate things and the rendering so you can render in a more flexible context.
20100530 11:33:14< fendrin> boucman: Do you know what I mean?
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20100530 11:33:54< boucman> fendrin: not really... i'm more interested in what to say to kegv right now...
20100530 11:34:10< boucman> we have to access the unit map and the team list in the unit filter code
20100530 11:34:32< boucman> right now the unit_map is passed as a parameter, and kegv's patch uses the global team variable
20100530 11:34:53< boucman> which is not coherent, we can either have both from params or both from global vars
20100530 11:35:17< boucman> my feeling was that the unit_map was a singleton and it would make sense to access it through the global var
20100530 11:35:41< silene> boucman: it is consistent, because there can be only one set of teams, while there are possibly numerous unit maps (the AI uses several ones already)
20100530 11:35:45< boucman> but if the unit needs to "de-singletonize" the unit map, the other way of doing it might be better
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20100530 11:38:18< boucman> silene: I still find it inconsistant... but I understand what you mean...
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20100530 11:39:40< silene> as a rule of thumb, i have always considered that if the code performs a wml action sooner or later, then it should use ressources::units (so that it is consistent with what the user sees on its screen), otherwise it should use a specific unit map
20100530 11:39:48< boucman> kevg: on a related note, the doc for StandarUnitFilter says it does search in the recall list... is that a note you added, or is the doc incorrect ?
20100530 11:40:21< boucman> silene: ok, let's go with resources::units, then
20100530 11:40:34< boucman> kevg: is that fine ? can you remove the param cleanly ?
20100530 11:42:35< kevg> boucman: [kill] checks for recall list but [have_unit] doesn't. I change nothing is StandardUnitFilter docs.
20100530 11:43:12< boucman> ok, makes sense (though it's not very clear...)
20100530 11:43:14< kevg> probably, [have_unit] work in some unstandard way
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20100530 11:44:00< kevg> as I know another tags using StandartUnitFilter checks recall list by default
20100530 11:44:57< silene> yes, there are a few of them (just grep for scoped_recall in the code)
20100530 11:45:28< boucman> ok, i'll need to leave soon, kevg: are you clear with what you want to do, or do you have some more questions ?
20100530 11:46:34< kevg> now I should remove first argument of conditional_passed and insert my old patch, right?
20100530 11:46:48< boucman> basically, yes..
20100530 11:47:04< boucman> that+upgrade doc
20100530 11:47:33< boucman> I don't know if there are hackish ways of testing the recall lists that you should remove too (the scoped_recall silene mentionned)
20100530 11:48:41< kevg> why should I remove scoped_recall?
20100530 11:49:41< boucman> kevg: or maybe I misunderstood what silene said :P
20100530 11:50:27< silene> boucman: i was just saying that all the tags that SUF-filter on the recall list use scoped_recall (and if they don't, it's a bug)
20100530 11:50:46< boucman> ok
20100530 11:51:13< kevg> my patch uses it
20100530 11:51:51< kevg> boucman: so, I'll update the patch and write you when complete.
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20100530 12:01:25< boucman> I'll get a mail from the bug system when you update your patch...
20100530 12:03:05< zookeeper> AI0867, hey, thanks for the [label] fix
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20100530 12:04:39< fendrin> zookeeper: Can you point me to the commit that fixes label, please?
20100530 12:06:15< zookeeper> fendrin, AI0867's latest commit methinks
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20100530 12:07:06< silene> r43046
20100530 12:07:45< fendrin> wesbot: r43046?
20100530 12:07:47< zookeeper> also s/fix/feature
20100530 12:08:03< fendrin> damn, I will never learn it.
20100530 12:08:21< fendrin> wesbot: show r43046?
20100530 12:12:05< silene> AI0867: by the way, since you have worked on labels lately, there is another issue with them: they are stored translated
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20100530 12:46:47< kevg> boucman: is "search_recall_list" is ok for the key name?
20100530 12:47:25< boucman> kevg: yup, that's the one zookeeper suggested, and he's our main WML expert
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20100530 12:57:07< CIA-86> boucman * r43049 /trunk/data/core/ (8 files in 2 dirs): more refactoring, get rid of forest.cfg
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20100530 13:03:20< CIA-86> boucman * r43050 /trunk/data/core/ (19 files in 3 dirs): get rid of SIMPLE_OVERLAY, moved to compat.cfg, we now have a more generic macro OVERLAY_COMPLETE to catch that sort of things
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20100530 13:29:33< kevg> boucman: done
20100530 13:29:53< boucman> ok, i'll review it in an hour or so...
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20100530 13:51:25< zookeeper> kevg, does it accept any boolean value (1, yes, true, ...) or just yes|no?
20100530 13:51:58< kevg> zookeepre: yes
20100530 13:53:05< zookeeper> ok, great
20100530 13:57:49< zookeeper> what the heck is the "J Advanced Scripted Stuff" add-on supposed to do? at least it doesn't actually add anything.
20100530 13:58:40 * zookeeper votes for deletion unless he's missing something
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20100530 14:11:56< boucman> kevg: i'm fine with the patch, however it seems to me that the search_recall_list option has been generalized at many more places than [have_unit] seems like storyscreen seem to be able to use it...
20100530 14:12:15< boucman> that's a good thing, but you need to update a little more documentation :P
20100530 14:14:39< boucman> kevg: nevermind my remark, I had read the code wrongly...
20100530 14:15:35< CIA-86> boucman * r43051 /trunk/ (7 files in 4 dirs): allow search_recall_list in have_unit, patch 1672 by kegv
20100530 14:19:14< kevg> boucman: can I remove task from EasyCoding?
20100530 14:19:38< boucman> kevg: sure thing... and what patches do you have that were already commited/are in progress ?
20100530 14:22:51< kevg> 3 committed at all. But this was reverted https://gna.org/patch/?1668 And first is https://gna.org/patch/?1665 Right now I have no patches in progress. Planning to take one soon.
20100530 14:23:25< boucman> kevg: ok, would you be interested in becoming a wesnoth dev ?
20100530 14:24:03< kevg> What does it means?
20100530 14:27:50< boucman> it means we trust you enough to have SVN access,
20100530 14:28:00< boucman> i.e you're one of us :P
20100530 14:28:24< kevg> I think I'm not skilled enough to work solo. 
20100530 14:29:49< kevg> lvl up would be good, by the way :)
20100530 14:30:59< kevg> So the main reason to not give me svn access is a risk that I will brake something.
20100530 14:31:50< boucman> kevg: as you wish, but our offer still stand, and we won't hold your hand forever :P
20100530 14:34:57< kevg> I will make a couple of easy tasks and if all would be good i'll take access. Thanks for offer and trust.
20100530 15:08:17< kevg> boucman: half of hour passed but I still don't know what does "we won't hold your hand forever" means :) Could you paraphrase it?
20100530 15:11:33< boucman> well, reviewing a patch is very long, it takes us less time to review a patch than to write it ourselves, but only a little less...
20100530 15:11:57< boucman> so patches are mainly a way for us to test external people and get new devs...
20100530 15:12:40< boucman> that's what I meant, we want to have you in at some point, a real dev is way more efficiant than a patch submitter
20100530 15:14:05< kevg> ok, thanks
20100530 15:14:25< zookeeper> kevg, if you want another task to do, i think i could think of something right now..
20100530 15:17:23< kevg> zookeeper: yes, I want another task. But I probably make it not very soon because of lack of free time.
20100530 15:17:29< zookeeper> namely: add a reveal_map=yes|no key (default yes) to [endlevel], specifying whether shroud should be lifted in linger mode. currently it's quite a spoiler when you're playing some kind of an RPG scenario for example and have the entire map revealed if you happen to lose (or win).
20100530 15:17:41< zookeeper> kevg, sure, there's no hurry
20100530 15:18:10< zookeeper> that is, currently shroud always disappears in linger mode
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20100530 16:47:53-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: 1.8.2 planned on 31st May, stringfreeze for branches/1.8! | 114 bugs, 280 feature requests, 16 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
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20100530 17:01:30< CIA-86> boucman * r43052 /trunk/data/core/terrain-graphics/ (11 files): generalize some internal macros, deprecate some more unused stuff
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20100530 17:19:04< AI0867> 07:58 < Espreon> Different types of dogs are classified as breeds, not races. <-- in english, maybe, not in most other languages
20100530 17:22:12< Rhonda> We are talking English here, not? :)
20100530 17:23:05< Rhonda> ANd I'm not sure how you want to back up your "most other languages" when using english terms anway. :)
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20100530 18:09:19< AI0867> silene: I can change the label's text to t_string, but variable interpolation is done on it, which works on t_string. So I'd have to move that to render-time
20100530 18:10:44< fendrin> AI0867: In german we call dog breeds races as well.
20100530 18:10:58< AI0867> fendrin: not surprising
20100530 18:11:19< silene> in french too
20100530 18:12:16< silene> AI0867: variable interpolation can be made to give you back a tstring (see variable.cpp)
20100530 18:13:35< silene> that only solves part of the problem (that is, noninterpolated strings) though
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20100530 18:14:02< fendrin> AI0867: :-)
20100530 18:14:06< alink> hi
20100530 18:14:34< fendrin> hi alink
20100530 18:15:12< alink> hello fendrin
20100530 18:15:38< AI0867> silene: will it still be translated properly in that case?
20100530 18:16:07< AI0867> I mean, that means the translation is evaluated at label creation time, isn't it?
20100530 18:17:07< boucman> hey alink
20100530 18:17:21< alink> 'lo boucman
20100530 18:17:59< boucman> alink: I saw you did some work on the terrain layering... what did you change exactly (I'm trying to understand that code ATM, and some hints would be welcomed
20100530 18:18:00< silene> AI0867: the idea is that you perform translation/interpolation at label creation time (you have to, the values may change later); but if you get the same string as if you hade done just translation, then you keep the untranslated one, not the translated one
20100530 18:18:35< alink> boucman: currently no expected change of how it works
20100530 18:19:02< AI0867> silene: doesn't that kind of defeat the point of deferring translation by storing a t_string though?
20100530 18:19:39< boucman> ok, bug fixing, then...
20100530 18:19:50< alink> boucman: the main bugfix was to use correct y ordering (which depend of x parity which was not handled before)
20100530 18:20:27< silene> AI0867: it defeats it only if the label was containing formulas/variables; if there was none, then you get the full power of a tstring
20100530 18:20:43< alink> boucman: previous code worked row by row, by in wesnoth, a row (same location.y) is not a straight line of hexes
20100530 18:22:13< alink> boucman: so i moved the whole location sorting in the already existing and correctly sorted std::map<location, ...>
20100530 18:22:39< AI0867> "labels will change translation when you switch languages, unless variables were used in them" feels rather awkward though
20100530 18:22:58< alink> which allowed some nice code simplification (it had a LOT of nested loops before)
20100530 18:23:45< CIA-86> ivanovic * r43053 /branches/1.8/ (101 files in 28 dirs): 
20100530 18:23:45< CIA-86> pot-update (no new/changed strings, reference update only)
20100530 18:23:45< CIA-86> regenerated doc files
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20100530 18:24:12< alink> boucman: a possible future feature could be to expose the previously internal-only layer group concept (to the display interface, not WML)
20100530 18:24:34< boucman> maybe...
20100530 18:25:03< alink> yeah not sure yet if useful, i have other simplification planned, I will see how it looks after them
20100530 18:25:10< silene> AI0867: yes, but it works quite well in practice (otherwise wml code would never be able to store translatable things into variables)
20100530 18:25:39< AI0867> silene: okay then, I'll use that approach
20100530 18:25:55< AI0867> I'll probably factor out the stuff in vconfig and document its limitations
20100530 18:26:55< alink> boucman: at least i want to make it more clear, these layer groups confused me when using layer in the past and was hidden in implementation (and still are, but slightly less)
20100530 18:26:56< silene> just to clarify, when i'm talking about translatable things stored into variables, i'm thinking about all the units, their descriptions, their effects and so on
20100530 18:27:43< boucman> alink: yes, these were added to try to get units vs terrain working in perspective
20100530 18:27:52< boucman> it was at FOSDEM last year IIRC
20100530 18:28:50< alink> boucman: yeah it looked a bit like a latter hack added on a nice initial implementation ;-)
20100530 18:29:14< alink> but the concept is good
20100530 18:29:20< boucman> heh
20100530 18:29:24< boucman> we needed that feature
20100530 18:29:39< alink> and needed for UI stuff, regardless of unit perspective stuff 
20100530 18:30:29< boucman> too
20100530 18:31:20< alink> boucman: I also simplified unit invalidation functions, if you want to check the change
20100530 18:31:44< alink> again, no change of how it works
20100530 18:31:55< boucman> the display par, not the unit_frame part ?
20100530 18:32:06< alink> display part
20100530 18:33:30< alink> it was mainly r43035 and 2 revision before, but nothing interesting
20100530 18:34:05< boucman> wesbot: r43035
20100530 18:34:15< boucman> wesbot: log r43035
20100530 18:34:17< wesbot> alink * r43035 : Simplify code path for units invalidation
20100530 18:34:17< wesbot> URL: http://svn.gna.org/viewcvs/wesnoth?view=rev&rev=43035
20100530 18:35:26< alink> I killed obsolete stuff in r43034 or 33 and some intermediate steps were not needed anymore
20100530 18:36:39< boucman> alink: that's not the invalidation code, that's the drawing code...
20100530 18:37:19< alink> true, but i removed get_invalidated_unit_locations() so i was almost right :-)
20100530 18:37:32< boucman> hehe
20100530 18:38:01< boucman> alink: the drawing logic is easy, so not much to see there...
20100530 18:38:34< alink> yeah as I said 'nothing interesting'
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20100530 18:58:30< CIA-86> ivanovic * r43054 /trunk/ (1251 files in 49 dirs): 
20100530 18:58:30< CIA-86> pot-update
20100530 18:58:30< CIA-86> regenerated doc files
20100530 18:58:43< Ivanovic> ahh, that one was lovely small...
20100530 18:59:27< elias> indeed, only 1251 files, barely worth even doing a commit
20100530 18:59:48< Ivanovic> exactly!
20100530 19:02:35< CIA-86> silene * r43055 /trunk/src/ (10 files in 3 dirs): Reduced compilation time and binary size by uninlining some destructors.
20100530 19:04:30< alink> silene: i am surprised, empty {} block have a compilation cost ?
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20100530 19:05:08< silene> alink: you mean a really empty one? or constructors and destructors?
20100530 19:05:58< alink> ah yes i see now, so it was the empty default destructor which had a cost ?
20100530 19:07:18< alink> and indeed empty {} are different for destructor
20100530 19:08:24< silene> alink: for instance, the default destructor of mp::connect is so big that it doesn't even fit in the instruction cache of your processor
20100530 19:09:38< silene> (it's an inline one too, but since mp::connect objects aren't destroyed in that many places, it is not worth uninlining it since the compiler hardly ever generates it)
20100530 19:10:21< alink> ok and the default destructor can be potentially inlined, so it's work for the compiler
20100530 19:12:01< mordante> I'm off bye
20100530 19:12:04< alink> silene: which tool are you using to spot such things ?
20100530 19:12:11< alink> bye mordante
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20100530 19:14:06< silene> alink: "nm --size-sort -C -l --defined-only src/wesnoth | grep -e ' W .*[.]hpp'" (it takes several minutes, so it is worth redirecting the output to a file)
20100530 19:14:44< alink> thanks
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20100530 19:15:39< silene> alink: even if it's not inlined, it's some work for the compiler, as long as it needs to delete an object of that type (the compiler has to generate the destructor, otherwise the linker would later complain)
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20100530 19:17:57< alink> yes but we can't reduce that. Even when we add an empty destructor, compiler still needs to generate variable dectruction code
20100530 19:22:01< silene> alink: i think you are misunderstanding; if you write "struct A {}" or "struct A { ~A() {} };", then the destructor has an inline definition, so the compiler will have to generate it whenever there is a call to it (possibly in all the .cpp files)
20100530 19:22:03< silene> but if you write "struct A { ~A(); }", then it is an out-of-line definition and the compiler will generate it only when it encounters "A::~A() {}" (necessarily in a single .cpp file)
20100530 19:24:23< alink> silene: mmk ok, so your previous "even if it's not inlined" was only referring to the "struct A {}"  case 
20100530 19:25:30< alink> I think i understand now, but maybe my questions were not clear :-p
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20100530 19:28:16< silene> alink: no, i was refering to function inlining; there are two kind of inline in C++
20100530 19:28:28< silene> one is function inlining: a call to a function is replaced by the body of the function; it exists for most programing languages
20100530 19:29:45< silene> the other is inline definitions; it is specific to C++; it is used for functions declared "inline", for functions defined inside classes, and for special functions without definitions
20100530 19:30:40< silene> the second one mostly happens in header files and it means that a function may potentially be compiled as many times as the header file is included
20100530 19:31:19< silene> the body of the function may then be inlined, but that's an orthogonal story
20100530 19:32:38< silene> but for both inlining, the compiler will do the same job several times; for function inlining, at each call; for inline definitions, at each file
20100530 19:33:40< alink> ok, i could suggest caching, but i know that compiler stuff is not so simple :-)
20100530 19:36:04< silene> actually, it was done in older sun compilers; inline definitions were not compiled (except for syntax and type checking), and it's the linker later that would rerun the compiler whenever it encountered a missing symbols; as you can guess, it lead to all kind of caching issues and it was forsaken; i don't know if it has been reimplemented nowadays
20100530 19:39:35< silene> it could be done in gcc's lto framework; but afaik, noone intends to
20100530 19:39:48< alink> it's a bit sad that computer speed don't evolve fast enough to allow super-fast compilation time. I hope that it will be solved in 10 years or so
20100530 19:40:15< alink> (because code size should not growing at the same rate)
20100530 19:40:50< shadowmaster> Wesnoth's code is growing faster than I expected at least.
20100530 19:44:28< alink> shadowmaster: have we some sort of statistics about LoC history etc...
20100530 19:44:36< silene> alink: look on ohloh
20100530 19:44:44< alink> ah yes, of course
20100530 19:45:16< silene> https://www.ohloh.net/p/wesnoth/analyses/latest
20100530 19:46:31< alink> it certainly grown fast the last 2 years 
20100530 19:47:21< alink> but maybe ohloh misinterpret WML
20100530 19:47:47< silene> i think it just ignores it
20100530 19:47:58< alink> yes just saw the 70% c++
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20100530 19:57:58< Ivanovic> ohloh does interpret translation files though...
20100530 20:00:31< Ivanovic> at least i think it once did, or i would not get those high numbers regarding LoC changed
20100530 20:00:47< shadowmaster> LoC = lines of code I presume
20100530 20:00:52< Ivanovic> jupp
20100530 20:01:24< silene> Ivanovic: it counts commits and loc irrespective of the language
20100530 20:01:47< silene> but for language stats, it only counts languages it knows about
20100530 20:02:21< Ivanovic> ah, okay, they seem to have completely redone their system
20100530 20:02:26< Ivanovic> https://www.ohloh.net/p/wesnoth/contributors/13638668662143
20100530 20:02:39< Ivanovic> this once has once shown *really* strange stats since it interpreted the wml files
20100530 20:13:29< Ivanovic> zookeeper: can you check this one, it sounds strange to me... https://gna.org/bugs/?16091
20100530 20:16:31< silene> Ivanovic, zookeeper: i already have fixed it locally, it's a bug in liberty
20100530 20:17:35< Ivanovic> okay
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20100530 20:22:04< Espreon> alink, AI0867, fendrin: I see, but, I don't care. If you think there's a problem with me hating certain breeds of dogs, then send me to pet therapy or whatever.
20100530 20:22:10< Espreon> ... with your money of course.
20100530 20:23:03< CIA-86> silene * r43056 /trunk/data/campaigns/Liberty/scenarios/04_Unlawful_Orders.cfg: Removed unknown unit type. (Fix for bug #16091.)
20100530 20:23:17< CIA-86> boucman * r43057 /trunk/data/core/terrain-graphics/ (corner_overlay.cfg misc.cfg walls.cfg): early reorganisation for walls
20100530 20:25:31< alink> Espreon: i was not serious.
20100530 20:26:10< Espreon> Good, let's keep it that way.
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20100530 20:28:42< CIA-86> silene * r43058 /branches/1.8/data/campaigns/Liberty/scenarios/04_Unlawful_Orders.cfg: 
20100530 20:28:42< CIA-86> Removed unknown unit type. (Fix for bug #16091.)
20100530 20:28:42< CIA-86> Backported from trunk r43056.
20100530 20:32:59< alink> Espreon: well I could argue about unfairness towards ugly dog races, but it's a complex subject because there is also personality traits selected in each breed 
20100530 20:33:09< CIA-86> boucman * r43059 /trunk/data/core/terrain-graphics/ (corner_overlay.cfg internal-corners.cfg walls.cfg): early reorganisation for walls
20100530 20:33:27< alink> assuming that they really exist and are not just the result of human expectation towards each breed
20100530 20:33:32< boucman> oops
20100530 20:33:40< boucman> what did I actually commit here...
20100530 20:34:02< Espreon> alink: First, convince me that they are even worthy of being in my presence.
20100530 20:34:49< alink> Humanity created them, so humanity should consider them worthy
20100530 20:35:03< alink> even if you may disagree :-)
20100530 20:35:31< Espreon> Oh, you don't want to know about my opinion of humanity.
20100530 20:35:44< alink> a ugly dumb breed, is like that because we (or some people) wanted them to be like that
20100530 20:36:11< alink> so in fact you must hate dog breeders instead of the dogs
20100530 20:36:32< Espreon> True.
20100530 20:36:52< Espreon> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/db/Labradoodle_Assistance_Dogs.jpg ... These, however, are bigger mistakes.
20100530 20:37:27< alink> esp, considering that they were all brave wolves initially :-)
20100530 20:37:48< loonycyborg> Most of my interactions with dogs ended up with them biting me in an ankle :(
20100530 20:38:17< alink> loonycyborg: stop kicking them ;-p
20100530 20:39:25< alink> well, there is also the problem of bad master
20100530 20:39:45< alink> or owner, not sure how you call it in English
20100530 20:40:10< Espreon> Either works.
20100530 20:40:55< alink> but the first reflect more my point
20100530 20:43:10 * loonycyborg generally tries to avoid dogs. They are probably just feel his fear :P
20100530 20:44:00< alink> running from them is usually a bad idea, indeed :-)
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20100530 21:05:33< zookeeper> silene, cool, thanks. dunno why i didn't notice that earlier when i was messing with the unit types.
20100530 21:05:45-!- alink [~alink@wesnoth/developer/alink] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20100530 21:06:08< silene> zookeeper: probably because the engine was silently ignoring the incorrect type at that time
20100530 21:07:14< zookeeper> silene, well, i thought i actually went through all the undead unit type lists in that scenario and made sure they're ok...i guess i missed some
20100530 21:07:36-!- elias [~elias@allegro/developer/allefant] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100530 21:08:28< zookeeper> besides, don't disparage dogs, one of them has contributed great new wolf sounds which i just need to clean up and commit.
20100530 21:11:06< shadowmaster> no animals were harmed during the production of wesnoth?
20100530 21:12:56< Ivanovic> shadowmaster: uhm, are you sure?
20100530 21:13:26< Ivanovic> no idea what was required to make the dog howl?
20100530 21:13:50< shadowmaster> hm.
20100530 21:14:10< shadowmaster> we could get sued for that? :P
20100530 21:15:56-!- billynux [~billy@wesnoth/developer/billynux] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100530 21:19:20< Espreon> zookeeper: But... but... 'twill not be authentic!
20100530 21:21:46-!- shadowm_laptop [ignacio@wesnoth/developer/shadowmaster] has quit [Quit: rebooting]
20100530 21:22:19< Espreon> ... those audiophiles *WILL* be able to tell the difference... and when they do hear it, they *WILL* ræg.
20100530 21:22:25-!- norbert_ [~norbert@82-171-70-54.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100530 21:23:05< Espreon> After all, they have sounds transmitted via $7250 cables...
20100530 21:25:39< Espreon> http://www.pearcable.com/sub_products_anjou_sc.htm
20100530 21:25:46< Espreon> Sadly, it's true.
20100530 21:41:53< billynux> pardon me, but there is no difference between those pear cables and the ones that light up my lamp
20100530 21:42:08< billynux> except perhaps fancy marketing
20100530 21:43:01< Espreon> Well, don't tell that to an audiophile.
20100530 21:43:54< billynux> true..
20100530 21:44:15< AI0867> I know someone who is very happy about the 75 EUR monster DVI cables he got off ebay
20100530 21:44:36-!- ancestral [~ancestral@97-116-112-18.mpls.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: ancestral]
20100530 21:44:42< AI0867> he completely refused to accept that "it's digital. If there's a signal, it's perfect"
20100530 21:44:49< billynux> :)
20100530 21:44:52< AI0867> and he's a computer science student...
20100530 21:45:41< billynux> reminds me of Comp. Sci. friends signing a petition through emails U.U
20100530 21:47:25-!- shadowm_laptop [ignacio@wesnoth/developer/shadowmaster] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100530 21:47:45< billynux> http://www.audioholics.com/news/industry-news/pear-cables-worst-tech
20100530 21:48:21-!- cjhopman_ [~chris@wesnoth/developer/cjhopman] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
20100530 21:52:19 * Espreon chuckles
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20100530 22:02:45< norbert_> anything in 1.8.2 that's worth compiling it? :)
20100530 22:03:28< shadowmaster> shikadibot: file /tags/1.8.2/changelog
20100530 22:03:28< shikadibot> Web interface URL to file /tags/1.8.2/changelog: http://svn.gna.org/viewcvs/wesnoth/tags/1.8.2/changelog?view=log
20100530 22:03:48< shadowmaster> hm
20100530 22:03:56< shadowmaster> ah, it's not been released yet
20100530 22:04:18< shadowmaster> in any case, http://svn.gna.org/viewcvs/wesnoth/branches/1.8/changelog?view=markup
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20100530 22:07:15< norbert_> ok; looks like .1 will do for now
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20100530 22:15:02< AI0867> hmm, when changing the language to en@shaw, the main menu widens
20100530 22:15:14< AI0867> to accommodate some longer words
20100530 22:15:52< shadowmaster> you mean http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewforum.php?f=4 ?
20100530 22:15:52< AI0867> when I change back to "C", the menu remains as wide as it was, putting the new buttons on the left side of it and leaving some of the old, now non-functional buttons remain
20100530 22:15:57< shadowmaster> er.
20100530 22:16:02< shadowmaster> https://gna.org/bugs/?func=detailitem&item_id=12908
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20100530 22:16:47< Espreon> ... GUI1 sucks.
20100530 22:17:14< shadowmaster> of course it does. It makes the shavian transliteration unusable
20100530 22:18:14< shadowmaster> AI0867: mordante's supposedly working on the issue since around 1.5.9
20100530 22:18:51< shadowmaster> so bug him to finish the titlescreen with some clever excuse
20100530 22:19:07< Espreon> Yeah.
20100530 22:20:40< AI0867> silene: is there a bug for the [label] translation changes?
20100530 22:21:04< Espreon> Hmmmmm?
20100530 22:21:15< silene> AI0867: not that i know of; it's just that i notice it whenever i'm loading a savegame from a bug report...
20100530 22:21:21< AI0867> k
20100530 22:23:11< CIA-86> ai0867 * r43060 /trunk/src/ (3 files): Factor out vconfig's tstring variable interpolation to formula_string_utils and document its issues
20100530 22:24:05< CIA-86> ai0867 * r43061 /trunk/ (4 files in 2 dirs): Make terrain_label store a t_string rather than an std::string, so language changes will cause the labels to be retranslated
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20100530 22:39:55< zookeeper> starting trunk, at least when rebuilding the cache, takes a heck of a lot longer than 1.8.
20100530 22:44:39< shadowmaster> "verifying cache"
20100530 22:44:47< shadowmaster> how odd. What is it verifying if I just wiped it out?
20100530 22:45:06< shadowmaster> current trunk data appears to be broken, too
20100530 22:45:44< Espreon> Oh?
20100530 22:46:04< shadowmaster> 20100530 16:45:04 error general: Error loading game configuration files: 'macro/file 'WALL_TRANSITION_PLF' is missing at core/terrain-graphics/walls.cfg:48 included from core/_main.cfg:11 included from _main.cfg:5 included from core/terrain-graphics.cfg:367 included from _main.cfg:60' (The game will now exit)
20100530 22:46:19< shadowmaster> I blame boucman just because
20100530 22:46:23< Espreon> Indeed.
20100530 22:47:19< boucman> shadowmaster: and you are right
20100530 22:47:30< boucman> my svn chechout is somehow screwed uped
20100530 22:47:40< boucman> I am re-cheching out to commit the fix
20100530 22:47:51< boucman> (a file I had planned to add, but wasn't somehow)
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20100530 22:55:08< CIA-86> boucman * r43062 /trunk/data/core/terrain-graphics/walls.cfg: fix macros badly commited
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20100530 23:02:26< shadowmaster> it seems slightly slower
20100530 23:02:26-!- Gallaecio [~Gallaecio@232.158.60.213.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20100530 23:02:41< shadowmaster> I guess it doesn't make much of a difference for me since Linux is keeping a lot of stuff in the file cache
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--- Log closed Mon May 31 00:00:17 2010