--- Log opened Wed May 12 00:00:35 2010
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20100512 02:43:02< Espreon> AI0867: I fixed the tarball.
20100512 02:45:58< AI0867> thanks
20100512 02:49:26< Espreon> You are welcome
20100512 03:32:58< Espreon> Hmmm... TSL's easy mode is broken... oh well...
20100512 04:10:21<+CIA-9> wesnoth-umc-dev: AI0867 * r7116 /branches/1.8/Era_of_Strife/ (detect.cfg dist/ dist/BASEDIRS dist/VERSION): Create dist directory + the files needed to run build-external-archive.sh. Document policy regarding detect.cfg
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20100512 04:28:18< shadowm_BOFH> so I was considering using Aethaeryn as a trampoline
20100512 04:28:25< shadowm_BOFH> then I noticed he's not flexible enough.
20100512 04:28:35< shadowm_BOFH> oh wait, it's Aeth *hides*
20100512 04:31:30 * Espreon wishes it were "Æthæryn"
20100512 04:33:43< shadowm_BOFH> unfortunately, this ircd doesn't allow non ASCII nicknames due to abuse
20100512 04:34:05< shadowm_BOFH> you'd be surprised at the kind of crap people can come with provided enough Unicode codepoints
20100512 04:34:13< shadowm_BOFH> *come up with
20100512 04:34:17< Espreon> Jeß, jeß.
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20100512 05:35:54< Espreon> FAAB: You may want to put campaign.def in your _server.ign.
20100512 05:36:50< FAAB> ok
20100512 05:37:27< FAAB> it is not *my* campaign.def as I don't know what this file is about
20100512 05:37:34< FAAB> will do nevertheless
20100512 05:38:12< Espreon> FAAB: It is part of the po build system from Wescamp.
20100512 05:39:46< FAAB> so, that is actually mine :-/
20100512 05:39:51<+CIA-9> wesnoth-umc-dev: faabumc * r7117 /trunk/Nightmares_of_Meloen/_server.ign: NoM: don't send campaign.def to the addon server.
20100512 05:39:56< Espreon> Jeß, jeß.
20100512 05:47:21<+CIA-9> wesnoth-umc-dev: espreon * r7118 /branches/1.8/Era_of_Strife/dist/VERSION: EoS: corrected the version in VERSION.
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20100512 11:30:26< zookeeper> esr, well, i might be afk intermittently (?) but sure
20100512 11:31:43< esr> OK.  You wantee to come up with some sort of factional politics among the lich-lords running the invasion of the Great Continent, yes? What were your actual plot objectives. 
20100512 11:31:47< esr> ?
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20100512 11:31:53< zookeeper> http://www.wesnoth.org/irclogs/2010/05/%23wesnoth-umc-dev.2010-05-07.log at 10:41 in case you need a reminder
20100512 11:32:06< esr> Looking...
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20100512 11:34:50< esr> zookeeper: Tentative name for "our" lich-lord = Deron
20100512 11:35:38< zookeeper> as for the plot objectives, i think the main thing is simply to add a bit of chaotic "tension" overall, and some opportunities for fights against undead before the final scenarios
20100512 11:36:04< esr> You want Jevyan to have Deron and other lich-lords under his thumb during the initial invasion, only to have them revolt as the possibilities become clear?
20100512 11:36:16< zookeeper> sounds good to me. my placeholder name for now has been "melchor"
20100512 11:36:27< esr> Or is all this taking place on the Green Isle?
20100512 11:36:59< zookeeper> esr, more like all taking place on the green isle. see, none of them thought they'd be going anywhere from that isle. the only reason jevyan chases haldric and co is because of the ruby.
20100512 11:37:10< esr> OK.
20100512 11:37:38< esr> So our orcs never go to the Great Continent?
20100512 11:38:53< zookeeper> sure they do. i just meant that the lich-lords would initially be allied, but that discovering that haldric took the ruby would result in some changes of plans
20100512 11:39:46< esr> I meant: So our orcs don't go to the Great Continent during this campaign?  It takes place on the Green Isle?
20100512 11:40:22< zookeeper> no, they go to the great continent. although making it all take place on the isle seems like a potentially interesting thought too, but i guess i don't want to refactor that much.
20100512 11:40:33< esr> OK.
20100512 11:41:44< esr> Where do you want the orcs' revolt against Detron/Melchor to take place?  Before the invasion or afterwards?
20100512 11:42:11< zookeeper> after the arrival on the great continent, as originally envisioned
20100512 11:42:49< esr> That gives a larger selection of potential adversaries, certainly.
20100512 11:45:26< zookeeper> so, one idea i had was that after discovering that haldric sailed away with the ruby, jevyan betrays the rest and goes after the ruby to get it for himself. that'd result in some fighting on the isle before jevyan gets his fleet ready, and after that maybe deron simply goes after him?
20100512 11:45:55< zookeeper> maybe jevyan unleashes some extra orcs on the isle before leaving with the intention that they'd wipe out the other lich-lords
20100512 11:46:01< zookeeper> or something to that effect
20100512 11:46:54< esr> That works. Theb Deron/Melchor and his slaves land on the Great Continent, and sometime later the orcs find the key to revolt.
20100512 11:47:04< zookeeper> "You must head east because my people came from the west, which is teeming with every form of enemy and monster imaginable. There is literally no room there. If you thought we were bad, you should see what else comes behind us. You'd be slaves, or you'd be dead."
20100512 11:47:14< zookeeper> so i guess there could be something else besides orcs too :P
20100512 11:47:17< esr> Right.
20100512 11:48:07< esr> Particularly badass naga come o mind as one possibility.
20100512 11:49:11< zookeeper> i was thinking more like something...huge. something that could wrestle with a dragon.
20100512 11:49:34< esr> OK.  What do we have in canon that could dop that?  Yetis, maybe?
20100512 11:49:58< zookeeper> it'd be something custom most likely
20100512 11:50:14< zookeeper> there's a couple of yetis seen on the green isle in TRoW anyway
20100512 11:50:35< zookeeper> anyway, i guess that's a minor detail
20100512 11:50:41< zookeeper> one can always come up with huge monsters
20100512 11:51:14< esr> Yes.
20100512 11:53:18< zookeeper> but then again...i intended that in the epilogue the player would go back and wipe out the rest of the lich-lords (and unite the orcs) still on the isle
20100512 11:53:50< esr> Hm.
20100512 11:53:51< zookeeper> i'm not sure how well that fits with jevyan unleashing a huge mega-monster on the isle
20100512 11:54:15< esr> I don't think it fits orc psychology as I understand it, either.
20100512 11:54:33< zookeeper> going back?
20100512 11:54:44< esr> I mean, here thjey are with a whole continent to run amuck in.  Why go back?
20100512 11:55:20< esr> More plausable that the orcs think they camn revolt and then disappear off the lich-lords' radar.
20100512 11:56:07< zookeeper> i'd say revenge and the protagonist having enough brains to realize that they'd be defeated by the humans and elves, because even jevyan and his orcs were
20100512 11:57:01< zookeeper> so he goes back with the intention of getting the great horde thing running, and _then_ coming back to take the great continent
20100512 11:57:43< zookeeper> basically, when the campaign ends, haldric and co are probably just about to arrive to mop up the rest of the orcs and undead for good
20100512 11:58:03< zookeeper> they're disorganized and all that
20100512 11:58:25< esr> It's your campaign, but...do you really want to do two sea voyages like that in the same story arc?  I think going back would just complicate things.
20100512 11:59:37< zookeeper> well, there's only one voyage during the campaign, the part about going back to the isle (and eventually returning to the great continent) would only be in the epilogue
20100512 12:00:59< esr> OK.
20100512 12:01:36< zookeeper> i mean, the latter part would probably only be mentioned in the last 2-3 sentences of the epilogue in reference to AOI, so i don't think it complicates things
20100512 12:04:21< zookeeper> the player wouldn't really have a personal score to settle with the humans or elves, unlike with any lich-lords that might remain. also, being an older and smarter orc, he would probably realize that the best thing to do is to unite the scattered orcs first.
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20100512 12:12:33< esr> fendrin: hi
20100512 12:14:55< fendrin> esr: hi esr
20100512 12:21:18< zookeeper> esr, ok, another thing i was still a bit worried about is the intro: the banshee/killswitch spell has to be hard to cast or expensive or something, since it's mostly only used on the leaders. however, it'd be downright stupid to first cast that on a bunch of orcs and then have them fight each other to death to find the "winner".
20100512 12:21:58< zookeeper> so i suppose the casting needs to be after the fight, or it needs to be more cheaper/accessible to cast, which sort of screws with continuity IMO
20100512 12:22:27< esr> My take?
20100512 12:22:52< esr> The spell is cheap until the orcs find a defense, at which point it's useless.
20100512 12:23:36< esr> This happens early enough in canon history that it's not a factor later on.
20100512 12:23:43< zookeeper> right
20100512 12:27:14< esr> Color detail I cam up with since our last conversation: the orcs call the banshees "soul-stealers".  We can actually create a tiny bit of nice mystery there, as first-time players won't know what they actually are but having them be banshees (or maybe shadows) will elicit an Oh, right, that make sense..." reaction.
20100512 12:28:19< esr> Or maybe "soul-eaters".  That sounds nastier.
20100512 12:32:37< zookeeper> ok, i think these will help to propel the plan one notch forwards again
20100512 12:33:17< zookeeper> i'm still sketching how the green isle scenarios will go exactly
20100512 12:37:26< zookeeper> one thing it's going to have to have is having one loyal undead unit with you (a wraith/spectre probably) acting as a liaison, both for dialogue purposes (can't have the master pay a personal visit every scenario) and providing some much-needed damage type variety.
20100512 12:41:29< esr> Good idea.
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20100512 13:41:23< zookeeper> esr, still around?
20100512 13:48:53< esr> zookeeper: Yes.
20100512 13:52:29< zookeeper> ok. this is all rather minor detailing...i thought that having three ruling lich-lords would be a good number. that'd be jevyan, deron and some yet unnamed one (and probably not a major character). i figured that they'd each command their own orcish slaves and having different approaches to that; jevyan would use the usual trick of deceptive promises of power and such and derol would favour the banshee method.
20100512 13:53:24< zookeeper> i was just wondering what a third could be
20100512 13:54:16< zookeeper> ah, well, maybe a third method would be keeping so few of them (for menial tasks) that they can be managed using regular slavery
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20100512 18:45:18< shadowmaster> foo
20100512 18:45:21< shadowmaster> hm.
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--- Log closed Thu May 13 00:00:41 2010