--- Log opened Sun May 23 00:00:18 2010
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20100523 05:22:27< Aethaeryn> Elvish_Pillager: Reloading it now...
20100523 05:22:35< Elvish_Pillager> yeah
20100523 05:22:53< Aethaeryn> I think
20100523 05:22:54< Aethaeryn> there it is
20100523 05:22:59< Aethaeryn> sorry for the delay
20100523 05:23:04< Aethaeryn> Wesnoth kinda froze then unfroze
20100523 05:23:11< Aethaeryn> maybe my load list is too long
20100523 05:23:22< Elvish_Pillager> put dta2 in and go
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20100523 05:48:40< Espreon> ... and of course the KDE 4.5 sources aren't on the mirrors yet... and pykde4-9999 won't compile...
20100523 05:48:59< Espreon> At least when I get KDE 4.4 back, everything will be truly up-to-date (hopefully).
20100523 05:49:14< Espreon> Yes, I still had stuff from the KDE 4.4 betas/RCs.
20100523 05:52:26< Aethaeryn> Eww...
20100523 05:52:35< Espreon> Hwæt?
20100523 05:52:36-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
20100523 05:52:42< Aethaeryn> If I had to do a desktop manager from sources, I'd choose XFCE
20100523 05:52:59< Espreon> For me, it is either KDE or Fluxbox.
20100523 05:54:16< Espreon> It doesn't take forever to compile all of KDE, and I have pretty much all of KDE in ccache, so... yeahz.
20100523 05:55:42 * Espreon wonders how Linux compiled with icc would fare...
20100523 05:55:55< Espreon> There are patches that makes it possible, so... yeahz.
20100523 05:58:42< Espreon> Aethaeryn: Before you go running around saying "Eww", go compile everything you want to install from now on, EVERYTHING. (if possible)
20100523 06:00:54< Aethaeryn> Espreon: the only thing I ever really want to install is Wesnoth
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20100523 06:01:02< Aethaeryn> muh
20100523 06:01:46< Espreon> I see.
20100523 06:02:50< Aethaeryn> the "muh" btw was meant for the wesnoth window
20100523 06:02:52< Aethaeryn> an "uh
20100523 06:04:50< Espreon> It matters not.
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20100523 07:44:23< Espreon> Elvish_Pillager: Awww, you don't want translations?
20100523 07:44:32< Elvish_Pillager> hmm?
20100523 07:44:33 * Espreon looked at the 1.8 addons list with wesnoth-addon-manager
20100523 07:44:50< Espreon> ... and translate for EoHS = ?
20100523 07:45:00< Espreon> So, you didn't put "translate=true" in its pbl.
20100523 07:45:42< Elvish_Pillager> oh
20100523 07:45:43< Elvish_Pillager> um
20100523 07:46:52< Elvish_Pillager> I guess I would like it translated
20100523 07:46:58 * Elvish_Pillager puts it in there for the next release
20100523 07:48:37< Espreon> Why not just reupload?
20100523 07:49:36< Elvish_Pillager> hmm
20100523 07:49:42< Elvish_Pillager> well, my current code
20100523 07:49:52< Elvish_Pillager> ...actually is not in an unstable state
20100523 07:49:54< Elvish_Pillager> so
20100523 07:49:55< Elvish_Pillager> yeah
20100523 07:50:24< Espreon> There wouldn't have been a problem if you used our awesome services. ;)
20100523 07:50:47< Elvish_Pillager> Uploaded.
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20100523 07:52:04< Espreon> Hmmm, I thought that you meant that you made changes that rendered things... yeahz...
20100523 07:52:09< Espreon> Oh well.
20100523 07:52:45< Espreon> Now we wait... for mordante to run... the script.
20100523 07:53:11< Espreon> Then I shall begin... transliterating...
20100523 07:57:17< Espreon> ... even though I have never played EoHS...
20100523 07:57:34< Elvish_Pillager> heh
20100523 07:57:41< Elvish_Pillager> you're missing out
20100523 07:57:47< Espreon> I don't play MP at all.
20100523 07:57:57< Espreon> ... and I don't feel like playing against the AI for no reason.
20100523 07:58:09< Elvish_Pillager> Why would someone who never plays EoHS translate it?
20100523 07:58:21< Espreon> For teh lulz.
20100523 07:58:39< Espreon> Ironically, I am a developer of two æras.
20100523 08:00:05< Espreon> If I were translating it into Spanish, it would be so that I would be using my knowledge for something. In the case of translating it into BE and transliterating it into Shavian, definitely for teh lulz.
20100523 08:01:07< Espreon> I would be happy to translate it into Spanish, but, that would take a lot of effort.
20100523 08:02:11< Espreon> Elvish_Pillager: Oh, I forgot, I just don't play MP, I hate it.
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20100523 08:13:33 * Espreon wonders what happened to Elvish_Pillager.
20100523 08:17:33< Elvish_Pillager> well, I was playing Wesnoth
20100523 08:18:00< Espreon> I see...
20100523 08:20:13< Aethaeryn> Elvish_Pillager: It would probably be best if we go back to turn 33 or so
20100523 08:20:18< Aethaeryn> after you kill the guy and before the teleport
20100523 08:20:21< Aethaeryn> tomorrow, if we reload
20100523 08:20:30< Elvish_Pillager> meh
20100523 08:20:38< Elvish_Pillager> I guess
20100523 08:20:42< Elvish_Pillager> not too keen on reloading
20100523 08:20:49< Aethaeryn> I said if
20100523 08:20:49< Elvish_Pillager> we already broke the game plenty
20100523 08:20:58< Aethaeryn> it'd probably be too hard to get 5 people together
20100523 08:21:05< Aethaeryn> anyway, I'm going to tweak Master of Dungeons
20100523 08:21:14< Aethaeryn> and upload a new version of my mapapck
20100523 08:21:16< Aethaeryn> sometime this week
20100523 08:21:21< Espreon> Meh, I wish I felt like working on TSL.
20100523 08:21:27< Aethaeryn> with the sole intent of having it play nicely with other eras: EoT, EoHS, etc.
20100523 08:21:34< Aethaeryn> Right now it's really only tweaked for Bob's RPG Era
20100523 08:23:09< Elvish_Pillager> good night
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20100523 08:34:38< Espreon> Hmmmm... it seems that I'll need to get fonts for CJK stuff that don't suck.
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20100523 08:43:06< Espreon> shadowmaster: Since you are the fontmeister, any recommendations?
20100523 09:06:26 * Espreon wonders if he can convince the Sabayon people to include Aegyptus in Sabayon...
20100523 09:07:45< Espreon> ... and to include real CJK fonts instead of relyng on unifont or whatever crappy font they're using.
20100523 09:08:57< timotei> what's Aegyptus?
20100523 09:09:08< Espreon> A font for hieroglyphs.
20100523 09:09:19< Espreon> Yes, Unicode supports those now.
20100523 09:09:54< timotei> oh
20100523 09:12:57< Espreon> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bi%C3%A1ng_(regular_script).svg — Awesome.
20100523 09:13:53< Espreon> Too bad it isn't in Unicode...
20100523 09:15:19< Espreon> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Han_characters#Rare_and_complex_characters — Moar awesomeness.
20100523 09:15:41< timotei> wow
20100523 09:15:58< timotei> how many minutes it takes to write by hand something like that?:))
20100523 09:16:11< Espreon> IDK.
20100523 09:17:04< Espreon> Hmmmm... I'll definitely need support for "zhèng"'s character.
20100523 09:17:10< Espreon> Sixty-four strokes...
20100523 09:17:49< timotei> why need support?
20100523 09:18:21< Espreon> Why do you think?
20100523 09:18:51< timotei> you know chinese?
20100523 09:19:07< timotei> or for those old english character?
20100523 09:19:13< timotei> s/character/characters
20100523 09:19:53< Espreon> I don't know Chinese at all, but, I just want support for... EVERYTHING!
20100523 09:20:01< timotei> oh ;00
20100523 09:20:01< Espreon> Also, I do have a font for runes.
20100523 09:20:17< timotei> well, fonts don't slow up the system?
20100523 09:20:25< timotei> or they are loaded on demand?
20100523 09:20:30< timotei> on linux?
20100523 09:20:45< Espreon> DK, DC.
20100523 09:21:17< Espreon> If this system isn't ready for za warudo and hisoturi, then I am not.
20100523 09:21:21< Espreon> LOL, "hisoturi".
20100523 09:22:19< Espreon> Meh, probably a better transliteration would have been "hisuturi", but, IDK.
20100523 09:24:03< Espreon> Damn it, taito isn't in Unicode either... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taito_(kanji)
20100523 09:25:45< Espreon> timotei: Þis sucks!
20100523 09:25:55< timotei> well... for me wikipedia it displays the font
20100523 09:25:59< timotei> for you not?
20100523 09:26:05< timotei> 氈
20100523 09:26:12< Espreon> IT'S NOT THE SAME!
20100523 09:26:28< Espreon> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5a/Taito_2_l.png
20100523 09:26:59< Espreon> It has to be... þat one!
20100523 09:27:09< Espreon> ... or þe oþer variation.
20100523 09:27:56< Espreon> timotei: Clearly, I am insane, jeß?
20100523 09:28:02< timotei> mhh :))
20100523 09:28:11< timotei> well.. it depeneds
20100523 09:28:31< timotei> if you "collect" fonts then it's ok:D
20100523 09:28:46< timotei> just like other collect various things, like poststamps
20100523 09:28:59< Espreon> Well, I'm also not dirt poor, þus, I'm merely "eccentric".
20100523 09:29:23< timotei> bah... I hate the \367 character:))
20100523 09:29:39< Espreon> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!ESCAPES!
20100523 09:29:45< Espreon> DON'T REMIND ME!
20100523 09:29:47< timotei> wha?
20100523 09:29:56< Espreon> "\367"
20100523 09:30:00< Espreon> 'TIS AN ESCAPE!
20100523 09:30:04< timotei> that's the character u used:P
20100523 09:30:09< timotei> didn't know how else to express it
20100523 09:30:20< Espreon> Express hwæt?
20100523 09:30:34< timotei> it reminds me when the subtitles are not created good enough, and they show the character
20100523 09:30:41< timotei> \367... the one you used
20100523 09:30:47< timotei> þ
20100523 09:30:49< timotei> this
20100523 09:30:58< Espreon> Call it by its real name... nao!
20100523 09:31:04< timotei> oh, ok, nao
20100523 09:31:09< Espreon> Or I shall not forgive þee.
20100523 09:31:22< Espreon> No, "nao" is an Internets spelling of "now".
20100523 09:31:51< timotei> and what's his real name?
20100523 09:31:56< Espreon> Protip: þe letter in cwestion is called þorn.
20100523 09:32:46< Espreon> Speakers of real English use it.
20100523 09:32:59< Espreon> *it.®
20100523 09:33:15< timotei> þorn... ok I don't know how to pronounce it
20100523 09:33:20< timotei> þ is more like a "th"?
20100523 09:33:57< Espreon> It represents dental fricatives.
20100523 09:34:22< Espreon> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiceless_dental_fricative ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiced_dental_fricative
20100523 09:35:04< Espreon> Þorn and eð are interchangeable in English, BTW.
20100523 09:35:49< Espreon> So, jeß, it represents hwæt people call, "the 'th' sound".
20100523 09:36:32< timotei> ye
20100523 09:36:33< timotei> ok:D
20100523 09:36:50 * Espreon wishes to smite all people who call double-u "double-v".
20100523 09:37:24< timotei> I'm not one of them
20100523 09:37:26< Espreon> ... and þat includes all words and phrases þat essentially mean "double-v".
20100523 09:38:01< Espreon> So, all who say «ve doble» must die.
20100523 09:38:30< Espreon> timotei: How does one say "w" in Romanian?
20100523 09:38:42< timotei> dublu v
20100523 09:38:43< timotei> :))
20100523 09:38:46< Espreon> DIE!
20100523 09:38:50< timotei> or...
20100523 09:38:53< timotei> wu
20100523 09:39:05< Espreon> Better.
20100523 09:39:28< Espreon> "W" does represent two "u"s after all.
20100523 09:39:45< timotei> mhh... well for most of people it looks like double v:-??
20100523 09:40:13< timotei> uu is more like "omega"
20100523 09:40:55< Espreon> Meh, I always write my lower-case "w"s to look like two "u"s... I shall do þe same wiþ my upper-case ones...
20100523 09:41:07< Espreon> But, wynn is superior... so... yeahz.
20100523 09:41:20< Espreon> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wynn
20100523 09:41:32< timotei> :D
20100523 09:43:17< Espreon> timotei: But seriously, it was "uu" -> "w".
20100523 09:43:44< timotei> good to know
20100523 09:44:41< Espreon> BTW, instead of using escapes, just emulate a compose key.
20100523 09:46:07< Espreon> ... seriously.
20100523 09:46:17< timotei> what's that?
20100523 09:46:20< timotei> ALT+characters?
20100523 09:46:32< Espreon> NO!
20100523 09:47:01< Espreon> Don't you dare compare þose slimy Alt codes to þe almighty compose key!
20100523 09:47:11< Espreon> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compose_key
20100523 09:47:33< Espreon> Also, don't compare AltGr to þe almighty compose key!
20100523 09:48:51< timotei> sorry, my dell doesn't have something like that:D
20100523 09:49:56< Espreon> Nor does mine.
20100523 09:50:06< Espreon> Þat is why I EMULATE one.
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20100523 09:51:31< Espreon> timotei: It's easy to do in GNOME and KDE.
20100523 09:51:37< timotei> I have KDE
20100523 09:51:56< Espreon> Good choice.
20100523 09:53:40< Espreon> Go to System Settings, go to layouts, internalization, or whatever and look for compose key stuff.
20100523 09:53:56< Espreon> (I can't find þe actual names, for I am getting KDE 4.4 back)
20100523 09:56:26< timotei> ok, let's see
20100523 09:56:31< timotei> I have KDE 4.4 too
20100523 09:56:42< timotei> ø
20100523 09:56:43< timotei> ha!
20100523 09:56:54< timotei> așț
20100523 09:56:57< timotei> wow
20100523 09:56:59< timotei> țîăî
20100523 09:57:55< Espreon> Good, now þou havest þe powah!
20100523 09:58:06< Espreon> Use it wisely, and... stuff.
20100523 09:58:35< timotei> þis is nice :D
20100523 09:58:52< timotei> jeß?
20100523 09:59:18< Espreon> Jeß jeß.
20100523 09:59:19< timotei> wait... jeß isn't german?
20100523 09:59:29< timotei> it's yes
20100523 09:59:34< Espreon> No, it is a heavily Germanized "yes".
20100523 09:59:38< timotei> oh. ok
20100523 10:00:06< Espreon> Also, I am immune to the 1996 spelling reform, so... yeahz.
20100523 10:00:20< Espreon> How dare þey try to make Eszett used less often!
20100523 10:00:26< Espreon> 'Tis so cute and cuddly...
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20100523 16:29:57< Elvish_Pillager> oh yeah, I need to report that OOS :(
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20100523 16:45:12< Elvish_Pillager> here: https://gna.org/bugs/?16064
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20100523 17:57:25< Gambit> shadowmaster: ping me when you get this.
20100523 17:57:30< Gambit> I have a question for your excellency.
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20100523 21:35:22< timotei> thanks Espreon for fixing the files..
20100523 21:35:35< timotei> but they weren't by default with those attributes?
20100523 21:35:38< timotei> I'm using sabayon
20100523 21:39:50< AI0867> timotei: added files by default have no attributes at all (besides executable and possibly mime-type to application/object-stream if it's binary)
20100523 21:40:25< timotei> AI0867: oh. ok
20100523 22:03:18< Espreon> timotei: You are welcome.
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20100523 22:32:26< Elvish_Pillager> Aethaeryn!
20100523 22:33:11< Aethaeryn> TEH PILLAGER OF TEH ELVZEZ!
20100523 22:33:23< Elvish_Pillager> so let's talk about what EoHS RPG should be like
20100523 22:35:17< Elvish_Pillager> e.g. how should the spell cost limit you (so that you can't meteor storm every turn?)
20100523 22:37:23< Aethaeryn> Well, why not summon out of HP like in my era?
20100523 22:37:32< Aethaeryn> But maybe have a mana system like in BoL.
20100523 22:37:37< Aethaeryn> That's probably the best way to do it.
20100523 22:37:46< Elvish_Pillager> mana system...
20100523 22:37:47< Aethaeryn> Have a slowly recharging mana system and convert the gold costs to mana.
20100523 22:37:52< Aethaeryn> Really easy
20100523 22:37:54< Aethaeryn> Just a variable.
20100523 22:37:54< Elvish_Pillager> yeah
20100523 22:37:58< Aethaeryn> That displays in right click.
20100523 22:38:04< Aethaeryn> I mean, I could do it just with the WML I learned from EoT.
20100523 22:38:06< Elvish_Pillager> what mana regen rate? something constant like 10/turn?
20100523 22:38:14< Aethaeryn> depends on what the costs are.
20100523 22:38:21< Aethaeryn> You probably want costs to equal gold costs or be gold costs /10
20100523 22:38:24< Aethaeryn> something simple
20100523 22:38:55< Aethaeryn> And based on that, just a reasonable regen rate.
20100523 22:39:11< Aethaeryn> Note that in RPGs, you basically need to do a spell once a turn or at least once every other turn.
20100523 22:39:14< Aethaeryn> Though not necessarily the best spells.
20100523 22:39:20< Elvish_Pillager> yeah
20100523 22:39:57< Elvish_Pillager> there's a lot of useful spells for less than 10 gold so you can save up while casting them
20100523 22:40:02-!- Mark[1] [~13arrage@adsl-220-230-113.bhm.bellsouth.net] has joined #wesnoth-umc-dev
20100523 22:40:09< Aethaeryn> Mark[1] = 13arrage
20100523 22:40:10< Aethaeryn> I think.
20100523 22:40:14< Mark[1]> A'yup.
20100523 22:40:18< Elvish_Pillager> well, the name matches
20100523 22:40:18< Aethaeryn> I'm not 100% sure because he never actually told me :P
20100523 22:40:28< Mark[1]> I told you several times, you never listened.
20100523 22:40:35< Elvish_Pillager> also, the username matches -_-
20100523 22:40:39< Elvish_Pillager> I mean
20100523 22:40:48< Elvish_Pillager> "Mark[1] (~13arrage@adsl-220-230-113.bhm.bellsouth.net) has joined #wesnoth-umc-dev"
20100523 22:40:49< Mark[1]> So you're going with the RPG idea?
20100523 22:40:53< Elvish_Pillager> yeah
20100523 22:41:00< Mark[1]> Cool, with different classes?
20100523 22:41:03< Elvish_Pillager> No.
20100523 22:41:04< zookeeper> i think you should be able to pretty easily port BoL's spell system to some other scenario
20100523 22:41:06< Mark[1]> :(
20100523 22:41:12< Elvish_Pillager> I'm just making an EoHS RPG era
20100523 22:41:13< Aethaeryn> Mark[1]: Then you told me your name probably surrounded by another suggestion that broke my one simple "no download required" rule for EoT.
20100523 22:41:16< Elvish_Pillager> to make EoHS work better for RPGs
20100523 22:41:18< Aethaeryn> It's not that hard of a rule. :P
20100523 22:41:43< Elvish_Pillager> lemme check something
20100523 22:41:49< Mark[1]> But you could make it so much more epic with downloadable stuff.
20100523 22:41:58< Aethaeryn> Yes, I probably could.
20100523 22:42:04< Aethaeryn> But it would break the whole point of it.
20100523 22:42:38< Aethaeryn> It's very, very hard to get people to test a game when download is required. And harder still when it's unpublished.
20100523 22:42:39< Mark[1]> The whole point of it is not to have people dl it?=P
20100523 22:43:02< Aethaeryn> Really just something I've learned over the years at Wesnoth.
20100523 22:43:15< Aethaeryn> You get maybe 1/10 as many willing people to play unknown content if it requires download vs. if it doesn't.
20100523 22:43:24< Mark[1]> Eh
20100523 22:43:24< Aethaeryn> And that can be the difference between a game once a week and a game daily.
20100523 22:43:29< Elvish_Pillager> okay. Planning EoHS RPG, just like EoHS except for : (1) spend mana instead of gold, with a constant mana regen of around 10; (2) summons are loyal
20100523 22:43:34< Elvish_Pillager> What else is needed?
20100523 22:43:36< Mark[1]> You could make two seperate versions, like GEB.
20100523 22:43:40< Aethaeryn> Elvish_Pillager: summons cap
20100523 22:43:43< Elvish_Pillager> Ah
20100523 22:43:44< Mark[1]> Mana?
20100523 22:43:46< Elvish_Pillager> what should the cap be?
20100523 22:43:47< Aethaeryn> Mark[1]: I probably could make two separate versions...
20100523 22:43:52< Aethaeryn> But I have other things on my todo list.
20100523 22:43:53< Mark[1]> Wow EP, and you said you didn't want to outright copy anything?=P
20100523 22:43:58< Elvish_Pillager> Huh?
20100523 22:44:00< Aethaeryn> Like making MoD play with EoT.
20100523 22:44:03< Aethaeryn> And EoHS
20100523 22:44:15< Elvish_Pillager> Also, I'm thinking maybe give players less than 10 picks to start with
20100523 22:44:17< Aethaeryn> Elvish_Pillager: how about have the cap be based on level?
20100523 22:44:19< Mark[1]> EoHS with MoD how would that work?
20100523 22:44:25< Aethaeryn> so it's 5 level numbers cap
20100523 22:44:30< Elvish_Pillager> Aethaeryn: hmm
20100523 22:44:37< Elvish_Pillager> what about L0 summons?
20100523 22:44:38< Mark[1]> I like Aeth's idea.
20100523 22:44:44< Aethaeryn> Lvl 0 summons could count as 1/2
20100523 22:44:47< Elvish_Pillager> yeah
20100523 22:44:51< Aethaeryn> so you could have 10 bats or WCs
20100523 22:44:56< Mark[1]> Level 0's would be fine, but maybe only keep them around for a limited set of turns?
20100523 22:45:01< Elvish_Pillager> So you can have one dragon and nothing else :)
20100523 22:45:02< Mark[1]> Based on your level in that skill?
20100523 22:45:11< Aethaeryn> no
20100523 22:45:14< Aethaeryn> that's really annoying. 
20100523 22:45:20< Mark[1]> Of course.
20100523 22:45:22< Mark[1]> It's balance.
20100523 22:45:25< Mark[1]> It's supposed to be annoying.
20100523 22:45:34< Elvish_Pillager> Balance is never supposed to be annoying.
20100523 22:45:41< Aethaeryn> If you have 10 bats... you have 10 bats
20100523 22:45:48< Aethaeryn> if you promote one and lose one, you are capped at 9
20100523 22:45:49< Elvish_Pillager> ohhh
20100523 22:45:51< Aethaeryn> lvl 0s aren't too useful.
20100523 22:45:56< Elvish_Pillager> but with a summon cap
20100523 22:46:01< Aethaeryn> you could perhaps count lvl 4s/5s the same.
20100523 22:46:04< Elvish_Pillager> what if you want to summon something and already have stuff
20100523 22:46:05< Aethaeryn> and cap it at 4, thus having 8 lvl 0s
20100523 22:46:12< Mark[1]> Just
20100523 22:46:16< Mark[1]> Be careful with plague
20100523 22:46:17< Aethaeryn> You can unsummon a summon, I suppose
20100523 22:46:25< Aethaeryn> just like pressing "delete" in an RTS with a unit cap
20100523 22:46:25< Mark[1]> So you can't summon one WC and then convert twenty.
20100523 22:46:26< Elvish_Pillager> Like, at will?
20100523 22:46:34< Elvish_Pillager> Hmm. Right...
20100523 22:46:43< Mark[1]> Also:
20100523 22:46:44< Aethaeryn> right click, "Unsummon"
20100523 22:46:47< Elvish_Pillager> because in RPGs, it's basically useless to do that in order to deny XP to the enemies
20100523 22:46:48< Elvish_Pillager> yeah
20100523 22:46:48< Mark[1]> Seperate unit trees again?
20100523 22:47:05< Mark[1]> Like lich/arch mage, only more diverse and different units can do different things?
20100523 22:47:12< Mark[1]> I am NOT advicating silver mage teleporting, mind.
20100523 22:47:28< Elvish_Pillager> so: (1) mana (2) loyal summons (3) summon cap (4) unsummoning
20100523 22:47:29< Aethaeryn> I'd like to see dark sorcerer -> lich -> ancient lich, elvish sorceress -> elvish enchantress -> elvish sylph
20100523 22:47:38< Aethaeryn> with evoc being the current one
20100523 22:47:43< Mark[1]> Yeah, elves for nature seems a good idea.
20100523 22:47:50< Elvish_Pillager> I thought of that a while ago
20100523 22:47:58< Mark[1]> And I think you can get away with more than three magic classes.
20100523 22:47:58< Elvish_Pillager> but like, you already choose your skills
20100523 22:48:00< Aethaeryn> Then you'd start out with 4 points of your leader type
20100523 22:48:08< Aethaeryn> so you can go for balance still
20100523 22:48:28< Aethaeryn> and you can do what Blueblaze does in Conquest to bastardize stats to be equal.
20100523 22:48:32< Elvish_Pillager> Mark[1] I wouldn't be averse to adding another magic path if it had a distinct enough style, BUT...
20100523 22:48:43< Elvish_Pillager> ...in practicality, I am not going to put that much work into EoHS any time soon
20100523 22:48:49< Aethaeryn> so really, the difference would be nature gets arcane, evoc gets fire, and undead gets cold with a weaker secondary arcane
20100523 22:49:01< Mark[1]> So what you're saying is that I should start coming up with ideas for new magic classes?
20100523 22:49:47< Elvish_Pillager> Mark, be advised that I'll start ignoring your messages in general if you say too much nonsense
20100523 22:49:54< Mark[1]> :(
20100523 22:49:56< Mark[1]> Fine, fine.
20100523 22:50:21< Mark[1]> But as a real suggestion, you need to tone down evocation or give Necromancy and Nature more all-purpose spells that evo gets.
20100523 22:50:22< Aethaeryn> Elvish_Pillager: don't forget that promoting makes it take more to the summon cap
20100523 22:50:30< Aethaeryn> so if I have a dread bat it'll count as 2, not 1/2
20100523 22:50:44< Elvish_Pillager> Mark, I don't need to do that at all.
20100523 22:50:50-!- thespaceinvader [~chatzilla@wesnoth/artist/thespaceinvader] has quit [Quit: night all]
20100523 22:50:59< Elvish_Pillager> Aethaeryn: Why not make it be based on the level it was summoned at?
20100523 22:51:02< Mark[1]> Okay.
20100523 22:51:03< Mark[1]> I'm sorry.
20100523 22:51:06< Mark[1]> You SHOULD do that
20100523 22:51:15< Aethaeryn> Elvish_Pillager: You could do that.
20100523 22:51:22< Elvish_Pillager> Mark, Evocation deliberately has more general-purpose spells
20100523 22:51:29< Aethaeryn> But...
20100523 22:51:32< Aethaeryn> I thought you wanted balance :P
20100523 22:51:37< Elvish_Pillager> to make up for the more overtly powerful spells of the other realms
20100523 22:51:48< Mark[1]> Overtly powerful?
20100523 22:51:56< Aethaeryn> I think next time I'll go 9 necro, 1 farseer, and promote to evoc
20100523 22:51:56< Mark[1]> Evo gets meteor swarm, for god's sake!
20100523 22:51:59< Elvish_Pillager> You haven't seen Poison Ground in action in a real game, have you?
20100523 22:52:10< Mark[1]> I saw you use it in our game yesterday.
20100523 22:52:17< Elvish_Pillager> Or someone summon a skeletal dragon and then eat it?
20100523 22:52:22< Aethaeryn> XD
20100523 22:52:32< Mark[1]> I also saw you kill half a dozen units, including two level 3's instantly with one spell.
20100523 22:52:44< Elvish_Pillager> yeah, a spell that costs 68 gold and you need to level up before you can cast
20100523 22:52:52< Aethaeryn> Elvish_Pillager: when you get you era done, we need to play it on Master of Dungeons 
20100523 22:53:17< Elvish_Pillager> seriously, out of the three realms, I've had the _fewest_ accusations of evoc being overpowered
20100523 22:53:21< Mark[1]> Yes, but a spell that could kill way more than 68 gold worth of units if you used it right
20100523 22:53:37< Mark[1]> You've had accursations of nature being overpowered?
20100523 22:53:39< Aethaeryn> it's a lvl 13 spell
20100523 22:53:39< Mark[1]> Seriously?
20100523 22:53:41< Elvish_Pillager> Yeah
20100523 22:53:45< Elvish_Pillager> Regen. Fissure. Rampage.
20100523 22:53:51< Aethaeryn> yeah
20100523 22:53:52< Elvish_Pillager> heck, Mud Touch.
20100523 22:53:52< Mark[1]> Well
20100523 22:53:54< Aethaeryn> you didn't play nature right
20100523 22:53:55< Aethaeryn> :P
20100523 22:54:02< Mark[1]> Admittedly I haven't gotten to try out Rampage.
20100523 22:54:12< Aethaeryn> Elvish_Pillager: still leave the ability to recruit, k?
20100523 22:54:15< Aethaeryn> in the era
20100523 22:54:21< Aethaeryn> some scenarios, including the end of FoT, let you recruit
20100523 22:54:25< Elvish_Pillager> Aethaeryn: hmm, okay
20100523 22:54:28< Mark[1]> Yeah
20100523 22:54:29< Aethaeryn> and in fact, I'm going to allow the host to place keeps in MoD
20100523 22:54:35< Mark[1]> Too bad we never got to FINISH FoT.
20100523 22:54:38< Elvish_Pillager> but like, it's annoying that the recruit options are sometimes useless
20100523 22:55:01< Mark[1]> Oooh
20100523 22:55:09< Mark[1]> Keeps in MOD could be amazing.
20100523 22:55:10< Elvish_Pillager> Aethaeryn, why are you against allowing levelled-up summons to break the cap? I mean, you did spend the experience on them...
20100523 22:55:43< Elvish_Pillager> brb
20100523 22:56:16< Mark[1]> Because number one: Summons share xp with leader anyway.
20100523 22:56:51< Elvish_Pillager> yeah, which means it's even harder to level them up than normal
20100523 22:56:57< Mark[1]> Number two: In RPG's with very large numbers of enemies you could level up several summons units without breaking the cap and have multiple high leveled units, which I think is overpowered.
20100523 22:57:09< Mark[1]> It also means it's not like it's wasting xp you could give to your leader.
20100523 22:57:19< Aethaeryn> zookeeper: Is there an easy way to change the first character of a string?
20100523 22:57:21< Elvish_Pillager> No, it is. It's exactly the same thing.
20100523 22:57:23< Mark[1]> Summons still level up a lot faster than leaders, so it might even be better spent on them.
20100523 22:57:24< Aethaeryn> So Ch -> Kh to change keeps.
20100523 22:57:31< Aethaeryn> It's the difference between something being done once or 8 times. :P
20100523 22:57:36< Elvish_Pillager> If you kill a level 1 unit with a summon, you just wasted 4 XP from a leader.
20100523 22:57:42< Elvish_Pillager> And the summon got 4 XP.
20100523 22:58:04< Elvish_Pillager> I was more interested in Aethaeryn's reasoning.
20100523 22:58:11< zookeeper> Aethaeryn, nope, you'll have to split it, remove the first and then join it again, i guess
20100523 22:58:23< Mark[1]> Pfft, fine. Tell me when you're interested in my reasoning.
20100523 22:58:33< Elvish_Pillager> Late in an RPG, you could also have Great Mages with Regen +20...
20100523 22:58:39< Elvish_Pillager> so...
20100523 22:58:49< Elvish_Pillager> of course, all the summons would have regen +20 too
20100523 22:58:50< Elvish_Pillager> hmm
20100523 22:58:58< Mark[1]> I think basing the regen on your nature level might be too much on a RPG.
20100523 22:59:09< Mark[1]> I think you should keep it at the basic +8 regen if anything.
20100523 22:59:23< Elvish_Pillager> it's definitely tuned for normal battles, I'll admit
20100523 22:59:38< Elvish_Pillager> but I think it's the fact that it's a permanent effect that makes it most broken in RPGs
20100523 22:59:39< Elvish_Pillager> I mean
20100523 22:59:47< Elvish_Pillager> You *always* give all the heroes regen in an RPG
20100523 22:59:52< Mark[1]> So make it a turn-based effect.
20100523 22:59:57< Elvish_Pillager> it is, like, the one spell that you are pretty much required to cast
20100523 23:00:01< Mark[1]> Useful for tight situation but that's it
20100523 23:00:02< Elvish_Pillager> Any other spell can be dispensed with
20100523 23:00:30< Elvish_Pillager> I could make it last a limited number of turns, like Wizard Sword... hmm
20100523 23:00:30< Aethaeryn> have it expire after 3 turns?
20100523 23:00:36< Elvish_Pillager> 3 is kind of short
20100523 23:00:41< Mark[1]> 5?
20100523 23:00:44< Aethaeryn> how would healing be done though?
20100523 23:00:48< Elvish_Pillager> 6 is cooler than 6
20100523 23:00:48< Aethaeryn> most RPGs basically require one healer
20100523 23:00:50< Elvish_Pillager> *5
20100523 23:01:00< Mark[1]> A healing class?=P
20100523 23:01:02< Aethaeryn> you'd almost need to add a WM healer type
20100523 23:01:15< Aethaeryn> or perhaps have a give healing
20100523 23:01:15< Mark[1]> School of magic based on giving extra healing, curing, regenerating, even ressurecting units?
20100523 23:01:15< Elvish_Pillager> Aeth, healing would be done by the regen spell
20100523 23:01:27< Mark[1]> Oooh
20100523 23:01:29< Aethaeryn> I suppose that makes sense
20100523 23:01:32< Aethaeryn> just different than standard noth
20100523 23:01:39< Elvish_Pillager> Oh, I figured out the basic effect of a >10 necro spell
20100523 23:01:44< Mark[1]> Ressurection could be that level 13 necromancy spell
20100523 23:02:00< Elvish_Pillager> it should have something to do with bringing dead units back as undead versions of those units, not just soullesses or something generic
20100523 23:02:01< Mark[1]> You'd have to create a store event...Would that work in standard battles?
20100523 23:02:07< Aethaeryn> only if it's any unit dies
20100523 23:02:08< Elvish_Pillager> and it should be possible to do it with enemy leaders >:)
20100523 23:02:13< Aethaeryn> not just your own
20100523 23:02:18< Aethaeryn> so if you kill a lvl 5 fire dragon
20100523 23:02:27< Aethaeryn> you get to resurrect it, same, but with undead trait :P
20100523 23:02:32< Elvish_Pillager> yeah
20100523 23:02:40< Mark[1]> And weaknesses to arcane/fire
20100523 23:02:44< Mark[1]> Same as normal undead.
20100523 23:03:08< Elvish_Pillager> so: (1) mana (2) loyal summons (3) summon cap (4) unsummoning (5) make regen last only 6 turns (6) make the 13-necro spell
20100523 23:03:18< Mark[1]> A'yup.
20100523 23:03:20< Aethaeryn> Mark[1]: not necessarily
20100523 23:03:21< Aethaeryn> look at ghoul
20100523 23:03:23< Elvish_Pillager> (those last two should probably go for general EoHS, not just RPG)
20100523 23:03:28< Aethaeryn> it's skeleton/ghosts that have separate weeknesses
20100523 23:03:31< Aethaeryn> if you just plain ressurrect...
20100523 23:03:34< Aethaeryn> it's identical or so
20100523 23:03:36< Aethaeryn> well
20100523 23:03:38< Aethaeryn> actually, arcane
20100523 23:03:40< Elvish_Pillager> I'll make them weak to arcane at least
20100523 23:03:42< Mark[1]> Of course, now we REALLY need a level 13 nature spell.
20100523 23:03:45< Aethaeryn> you should add -40% arcane weakness
20100523 23:03:50< Aethaeryn> provided that it caps at -100%
20100523 23:03:50< zookeeper> you can make regen amount based on remaining movement points
20100523 23:03:52< Elvish_Pillager> Weak to arcane, count as undead, have a little icon, and maybe some other changes
20100523 23:04:02< Aethaeryn> make sure you add, not switch
20100523 23:04:05< Mark[1]> And all I can think of are meteor swarm type things only with different graphics. x.x
20100523 23:04:12< Aethaeryn> or else something with already a high arcane weakness might *gain* arcane resist
20100523 23:04:13< Elvish_Pillager> lol
20100523 23:04:19< Elvish_Pillager> woah, what?
20100523 23:04:21< Mark[1]> Oooh
20100523 23:04:23< Mark[1]> How about
20100523 23:04:29< Elvish_Pillager> you can have less than -100 arcane resist...
20100523 23:04:32< Aethaeryn> Elvish_Pillager: Unit A has -40% arcane weakness
20100523 23:04:36< Mark[1]> Gives all units on your side Ambush and forest movement for a set number of turns.
20100523 23:04:43< Elvish_Pillager> meh
20100523 23:04:44< Aethaeryn> Resurrected guys all get -30% arcane weakness
20100523 23:04:46< Elvish_Pillager> brb
20100523 23:04:49< Aethaeryn> so it actually gains arcane resist
20100523 23:04:57< Aethaeryn> So you'd need to add it, so Unit A gets -70%
20100523 23:05:21< Mark[1]> And you shouldn't be able to ressurect units more than once.
20100523 23:05:29< Mark[1]> Or make it a lot more expensive to do it multiple times.
20100523 23:07:14< Aethaeryn> nah, not being able to do it more than once makes sense
20100523 23:07:26< Elvish_Pillager> Aethaeryn: Oh, that's what you mean
20100523 23:07:35< Mark[1]> How about reviving units that were undead to begin with?
20100523 23:07:36< Mark[1]> Too much?
20100523 23:07:43< Elvish_Pillager> I thought you were saying that it would wrap around at -100%
20100523 23:07:59< Elvish_Pillager> Mark: I was imagining that dead undead would stay dead
20100523 23:08:14< Aethaeryn> right
20100523 23:08:19< Aethaeryn> and since resurrected get undead trait...
20100523 23:08:22< Elvish_Pillager> yeah
20100523 23:08:33< Mark[1]> EP, you said anything that would involve having an extra side is a no-go, right?
20100523 23:08:45< Elvish_Pillager> so do you have an opinion on making regen temporary in normal EoHS?
20100523 23:08:49< Elvish_Pillager> Mark, yeah
20100523 23:08:55< Mark[1]> Ooh
20100523 23:09:20< Mark[1]> How about the level 13 spell a mass-petrify type thing?
20100523 23:09:28< Elvish_Pillager> no.
20100523 23:09:28< Mark[1]> Call it Basilisk Glaze or something like that.
20100523 23:09:42< Aethaeryn> Elvish_Pillager: yeah, I think temp regen all-around would make sense
20100523 23:09:46< Mark[1]> You're a very hard customer to please, Mr. EP.
20100523 23:09:51< Aethaeryn> RPGs are a lot longer than "real games"
20100523 23:10:01< Aethaeryn> so temp regen would last a long longer proportionately.
20100523 23:10:05< Elvish_Pillager> Hmm, with temporary regen, the only permanent enchantment would be Dark Pact
20100523 23:10:34< Aethaeryn> Makes sense
20100523 23:10:39< Mark[1]> I've got it!
20100523 23:10:52< Elvish_Pillager> oh yeah, it does
20100523 23:10:53< Elvish_Pillager> heh
20100523 23:10:54< Mark[1]> Allows you to absorb vegetarion and turn it into damage to a group of enemies!
20100523 23:10:59< Elvish_Pillager> LOL
20100523 23:11:11< Mark[1]> Too out there?
20100523 23:11:12< Elvish_Pillager> Also, LOL at the spelling of "vegetation"
20100523 23:11:17< Mark[1]> ...
20100523 23:11:20< Mark[1]> *Vegetation
20100523 23:11:25< Mark[1]> Don't judge me.
20100523 23:11:28< Elvish_Pillager> No, too stupid
20100523 23:11:39< Mark[1]> Wow, thanks man.
20100523 23:11:52< Mark[1]> I think you might just be too picky.
20100523 23:12:13< Elvish_Pillager> If I wasn't picky, EoHS would suck.
20100523 23:12:16< Aethaeryn> How about a special ability to make everyone a vegetarian?
20100523 23:12:31< Mark[1]> I like it.
20100523 23:12:47< Aethaeryn> Mostly it would affect anything with a bite attack ;)
20100523 23:12:58< Elvish_Pillager>  lol
20100523 23:13:02< Elvish_Pillager> remove all bite attacks?
20100523 23:13:15< Aethaeryn> Oooh
20100523 23:13:16< Aethaeryn> gives me an idea
20100523 23:13:17< Mark[1]> Lol, make you able to attack farmland and trees.
20100523 23:13:21< Aethaeryn> what about a kinda "world peace" ability?
20100523 23:13:25< Elvish_Pillager> lol
20100523 23:13:29< Aethaeryn> Removes all attacks in a certain radius for a certain amount of turns
20100523 23:13:29< Elvish_Pillager> All teams become allied
20100523 23:13:35< Aethaeryn> No, no change to allied
20100523 23:13:37< Elvish_Pillager> lol
20100523 23:13:38< Aethaeryn> they just can't attack each other
20100523 23:13:43< Aethaeryn> just like what you do if you spent a spell
20100523 23:13:53< Elvish_Pillager> An area where you can't attacl...
20100523 23:13:57< Elvish_Pillager> hmm
20100523 23:14:05< Mark[1]> Wait
20100523 23:14:07< Elvish_Pillager> what's the use?
20100523 23:14:07< Aethaeryn> Hallowed Ground
20100523 23:14:10< Aethaeryn> well
20100523 23:14:16< Mark[1]> Would it effect the /area/ or the /units/ in that area?
20100523 23:14:16< Aethaeryn> it would be very useful in certain bottlenecks
20100523 23:14:31< Aethaeryn> think about it, there's an area where the enemy can't actually attack though you can't attack either
20100523 23:14:37< Aethaeryn> would have to be temporary, but if played at the right ToD
20100523 23:14:42< Aethaeryn> definitely worth being a lvl 13
20100523 23:14:54< Elvish_Pillager> I like the idea of hallowed ground, but I don't think that effect is quite impressive enough for it
20100523 23:14:57< Elvish_Pillager> I mean
20100523 23:15:00< Elvish_Pillager> quite right for it
20100523 23:15:04< Elvish_Pillager> since it is a pretty impressive effect
20100523 23:15:16< Aethaeryn> huh?
20100523 23:15:40< Elvish_Pillager> It doesn't seem useful enough if you can't chain-cast it
20100523 23:15:59< Elvish_Pillager> Nature already has various ways of slowing down enemies
20100523 23:16:06< Aethaeryn> well, it's an entire area
20100523 23:16:12< Elvish_Pillager> and if you can, it's more "broken" than it is "useful"
20100523 23:16:12< Aethaeryn> where there's no fighting for x turns
20100523 23:16:54 * Elvish_Pillager goes to eat
20100523 23:16:56< Mark[1]> What would the overall use be? Just giving a defending side more time to recruit/reinforce?
20100523 23:17:19< Aethaeryn> could be used aggressively too
20100523 23:17:26< Aethaeryn> you can pass your troops through a defensive area
20100523 23:17:31< Aethaeryn> without them being able to stop you
20100523 23:17:36< Aethaeryn> through the OTHER guy's defensive area
20100523 23:17:41< Mark[1]> True.
20100523 23:17:49< Mark[1]> Would ZOC-lock still work?
20100523 23:18:20-!- zookeeper [~l@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has quit []
20100523 23:22:10-!- R4SP [~R4SP@h90.1.17.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has joined #wesnoth-umc-dev
20100523 23:32:24< Elvish_Pillager> Back.
20100523 23:32:48< Elvish_Pillager> Aethaeryn, I don't think it's symbolically correct for nature. The aggressive use is so...
20100523 23:32:58< Elvish_Pillager> "I'M GONNA HOLLOW THE @#$% OUT OF UR GROUND"
20100523 23:33:01< Elvish_Pillager> *hallow
20100523 23:33:36< Aethaeryn> probably more like
20100523 23:33:44< Aethaeryn> "Let's have respect for your fallen comrades, k?"
20100523 23:33:47< Aethaeryn> "k."
20100523 23:33:56< Aethaeryn> "Oh, thanks for letting us through.
20100523 23:34:02< Aethaeryn> "Wtf? How'd you get behind us?"
20100523 23:34:28< Elvish_Pillager> Necro and Evoc already have spells that you cast on an area of enemy territory. I think the style difference is important.
20100523 23:34:45< Elvish_Pillager> Anyway.
20100523 23:34:45< Mark[1]> Yeah.
20100523 23:34:57< Mark[1]> Unlike, say, blizzard.
20100523 23:35:06< Elvish_Pillager> (1) mana (2) loyal summons (3) summon cap (4) unsummoning (5) make regen last only 6 turns
20100523 23:35:12< Elvish_Pillager> Anything else we need for EoHS RPG?
20100523 23:35:25< Aethaeryn> get to work so we can play it ;)
20100523 23:35:32< Mark[1]> Well, you hate my suggestions, so.
20100523 23:35:35< Elvish_Pillager> Mark: oh, good point. That means that the issue is just overlap between Nature-13 and Nature-10 spells
20100523 23:35:50< Elvish_Pillager> which is actually a bigger issue than the style one, IMO
20100523 23:36:03< Mark[1]> Well
20100523 23:36:17< Mark[1]> I say that the spell should effect the units in an area.
20100523 23:36:20< Mark[1]> Not the area itself.
20100523 23:36:55< Mark[1]> It would be funny to see both or one side try and get new troops to the front to actually /do something/.
20100523 23:43:55< Aethaeryn> "Make area's units Pacifists"
20100523 23:43:58< Aethaeryn> "For 6 turns"
20100523 23:45:22< Mark[1]> Yeah, not too many turns, but enough to make it the kind of advantage that meteor swarm can give.
20100523 23:48:10< Elvish_Pillager> dude
20100523 23:48:11< Elvish_Pillager> storm
20100523 23:48:35< Mark[1]> Riiggghhhttttt.
20100523 23:49:15< Elvish_Pillager> I mean, I know you're a bit of an idiot, but your inability to call a spell by its name surprises me
20100523 23:49:48< Mark[1]> You know, EP, words hurt.:(
20100523 23:50:08< Elvish_Pillager> maybe you should have thought of that before ridiculing my spell naming choices
20100523 23:50:44< Mark[1]> Well, I'm SORRY. I wasn't aware that you were so sensitive about it.
20100523 23:58:02< Elvish_Pillager> ...a side effect of these changes is that a weaker nature mage can now cast regeneration to reduce the regen given by a stronger nature mage
20100523 23:58:11< Elvish_Pillager> I might fix this later, but it would be a little complicated
20100523 23:58:36< Mark[1]> Har.
20100523 23:59:02< Mark[1]> So EP, you're not up for finishing FoT?
20100523 23:59:12< Elvish_Pillager> FoT?
20100523 23:59:14< Elvish_Pillager> oh
20100523 23:59:16< R4SP> Fall of Trent
20100523 23:59:17< Elvish_Pillager> yeah, I'm not
20100523 23:59:22< Mark[1]> Bummer.
20100523 23:59:25< Elvish_Pillager> We already killed Lord and Lady Falcon ;)
20100523 23:59:32< Mark[1]> Well yeah
20100523 23:59:42< Mark[1]> But I think we could ruin the plot more if we put our minds to it.
20100523 23:59:48< Mark[1]> Like completely skipping the dragon.
20100523 23:59:53< Mark[1]> Or turning it into a mudcrawler.
--- Log closed Mon May 24 00:00:10 2010