--- Log opened Fri May 28 00:00:58 2010
20100528 00:03:28-!- zookeeper [~l@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has quit []
20100528 00:11:35-!- thespaceinvader [~chatzilla@wesnoth/artist/thespaceinvader] has quit [Quit: night all]
20100528 00:12:44< Aethaeryn> esr: Did you ever get the email the LUG president was going to send about your talk?
20100528 00:13:09< esr> Aethaeryn: Don't think so.
20100528 00:13:17< Aethaeryn> The semester ending so I never could follow up on it.
20100528 00:15:41-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has quit [Quit: noy]
20100528 00:16:02< Aethaeryn> esr: okay, basically, I think it came down to (1) the talk is Oct 8th, (2) someone will drive up to PA to pick you up, and we'll pay for a limo for the way back 
20100528 00:16:05< Aethaeryn> I think...
20100528 00:16:27< Aethaeryn> If they never sent the email, I myself am unsure of the details :S
20100528 00:17:46< Aethaeryn> I think the talk is 4:30-6 (30 min for questions) with a dinner 6-8:30
20100528 00:18:01< Aethaeryn> I think because I'm reading a Google docs from a while back... hope it's current info.
20100528 00:18:05< Aethaeryn> esr: Those details okay?
20100528 00:18:26< Aethaeryn> I suppose we'll solidify the details when the first meeting after summer comes.
20100528 00:18:36< Aethaeryn> I'm secretary-elect so I'll make sure to add it to agenda :)
20100528 00:18:39< esr> Sounds OK, I'd like to see confirmation from the organizers though.
20100528 00:20:59< Aethaeryn> Yes, there's really two possibilities if you didn't get the email.
20100528 00:21:12< Aethaeryn> (1) the president forgot or (2) there's still a few details that need to be worked out
20100528 00:21:43< Aethaeryn> the date/time is probably the most certain bit though
20100528 00:21:58< Aethaeryn> there's a ton of lecture halls on campus, probably around 8 or more.
20100528 00:22:49< Aethaeryn> esr: business and open source is the topic, right?
20100528 00:23:44< esr> The topic is wat the audience wants it to be.
20100528 00:24:03< Aethaeryn> probably allows information systems department to get involved too, not just comp sci. I *think* information systems is kind of a cross between comp sci and economics...
20100528 00:24:13< Aethaeryn> A more practical degree for managers or something.
20100528 00:24:21< esr> Last time I gave a talk it was billed as "Jam session with ESR: Ask him anything" .  That worked pretty well.
20100528 00:24:32< Aethaeryn> It is troubling though how the managers coming out of UMBC have far easier math requirements than the comp sci majors coming out of UMBC ;)
20100528 00:24:54< esr> You would expect anything else?
20100528 00:25:04< Aethaeryn> Means that someone's future boss will have had an easier time at college. :P
20100528 00:25:57< Aethaeryn> I respect IS department more though at the master's level though. Was lookinga the grad school offerings of UMBC earlier, and IS does more to differentiate from comp. sci. in specialties at the grad level.
20100528 00:26:15< Aethaeryn> and sorry, any typos are hereby blamed on the wireless keyboard ;)
20100528 00:28:31< Aethaeryn> esr: oh, there was a little bit of a controversy at the LUG over your intentions... we weren't sure if it was free because it's a university or because it's a LUG...
20100528 00:29:01< Aethaeryn> If it's the former, which is what the professor decided it probably was, we weren't going to really advertize off-campus besides the ex-students who are on the mailing list still...
20100528 00:29:03< esr> I don't generally charhge universities, either.
20100528 00:29:18< Aethaeryn> So we werne't sure how much promotion was allowed.
20100528 00:30:05< Aethaeryn> esr: Oh, are you okay with having a dinner at 6 after the talk? it would be smaller group, just really the LUG as opposed to anyone who can just show up from the university at the lecture hall.
20100528 00:30:22< Aethaeryn> Dr. Squire was going to pay for your meal, but we weren't sure if you had any dietary requirements so we didn't pick a place yet I think.
20100528 00:30:26< esr> Aethaeryn: Yes.
20100528 00:33:16< Aethaeryn> esr: So are you a vegetarian or allergic to something or anything like that?
20100528 00:33:33< Aethaeryn> It would be bad, for instance, to take a vegetarian to a stakehouse ;)
20100528 00:33:41< Aethaeryn> *steakhouse.
20100528 00:33:45< Aethaeryn> I blame the keyboard, again. 
20100528 00:33:59< esr> Mmmm.  Steak :-)
20100528 00:34:11< Aethaeryn> Okay, cool.
20100528 00:34:36< Aethaeryn> There was a conflict between you being pro-guns and neopagan. The former implies steaks, the latter implies the possibility of being vegetarian/vegan. :P
20100528 00:34:50< esr> The only food issue I have is abn aversion to fermented cheeses.  I can keep those out of my food mysdelf.
20100528 00:34:58< Aethaeryn> ah.
20100528 00:34:59< Aethaeryn> Okay,
20100528 00:35:03< esr> I'm not a *wimpy* neopagan. :-)
20100528 00:35:35 * Espreon wishes it were still Woden's Day.
20100528 00:35:48< Aethaeryn> Well, my mom's vegan (mainly for health reasons, actually), so I respect vegetarians/vegans. It's a rather strict diet (especially vegan) so anyone who has the discipline to restrict entire groups of food has to have some will-power.
20100528 00:35:56< esr> What's wrong with Thor?
20100528 00:36:05< Aethaeryn> That being said, I like steak.
20100528 00:36:21< Aethaeryn> I don't eat it all the time, but if I go to a restaurant that's usually what I'll get.
20100528 00:36:33< Aethaeryn> ooh... unrelated...
20100528 00:36:54< Aethaeryn> esr: I'm writing a dwarf RPG (as in small forces, restricted recruiting) MP campaign...
20100528 00:36:55< esr> Ascetic religions of all kind take willpower.  This is irrelevant to whether I respect them or not.
20100528 00:36:57< Espreon> esr: I only recognize Þur/Þunor.
20100528 00:37:19< Aethaeryn> Although I'm a decent amateur writer, I suck at dialog.
20100528 00:37:23 * esr slaps Espreon with a small hanmmerhead shark
20100528 00:37:29< Aethaeryn> Unfortunately, names and dialog (my two weakest points) are the only story Wesnoth really has :P
20100528 00:37:59< esr> Aethaeryn: Er, I can do names and dialog.  In my sleep, if required.
20100528 00:38:13< Aethaeryn> Ah, cool, thanks.
20100528 00:38:29< Aethaeryn> Some of my dialog I aimed at being hilariously bad (especially for item/gold pick up) since I knew I couldn't write good dialog.
20100528 00:38:40< Espreon> esr: Hwæt did I do this time?
20100528 00:38:48< Aethaeryn> esr: do you want to look at the .cfg or would you rather play it?
20100528 00:39:12< esr> I'd like to look at the cfg,, can you pastebin it somewhere?
20100528 00:39:20< Aethaeryn> ah, it's on wesnoth-umc-dev
20100528 00:39:24< Aethaeryn> so I can just link to that... just a sec
20100528 00:40:16< Aethaeryn> Got to commit the changes I made today.
20100528 00:40:30<+CIA-34> wesnoth-umc-dev: aethaeryn * r7198 /branches/1.8/Underlands_RPG/scenarios/02_Unknown_Chambers.cfg: More minor tweaks: demoting a troll into a whelp and making it gameloss if Anthotas dies.
20100528 00:41:03< Aethaeryn> esr: http://wesnoth-umc-dev.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/wesnoth-umc-dev/branches/1.8/Underlands_RPG/scenarios/
20100528 00:41:12< Aethaeryn> in particular...
20100528 00:41:13< Aethaeryn> http://wesnoth-umc-dev.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/wesnoth-umc-dev/branches/1.8/Underlands_RPG/scenarios/02_Unknown_Chambers.cfg?revision=7198&view=markup
20100528 00:41:38< Aethaeryn> Missing starting dialog, names for the three player leaders, and the dialog that's there might need tweaking.
20100528 00:42:09< esr> Aethaeryn: Wait...
20100528 00:42:13< Aethaeryn> 1287-1377 probably violates 10 rules of storywriting.
20100528 00:43:41< Aethaeryn> Right now, most of the tests have been local with me playing all 3 sides, but I do intend to allow 1 player play-through by giving him all the units (turning leaders 2 & 3 into gameloss heroes with silver crown) and cleaning up the events to allow for it.
20100528 00:44:26< esr> Aethaeryn: How do I check this out of svn?  I don't see Underlands_RPG under wesnoth-dev-umc
20100528 00:45:42< Aethaeryn> it's /branches/1.8
20100528 00:45:51< Aethaeryn> since it's MP content, I have to test it on stable.
20100528 00:46:01< Aethaeryn> (MP campaign in particular)
20100528 00:46:14< Aethaeryn> since last time I tried to make MP content on devel version I had to wait 6 months to get enough players for testing it
20100528 00:46:58< Aethaeryn> I'll probably run parallel trunk/stable versions of my content when 1.9.0 is released.
20100528 00:47:15< Aethaeryn> trunk seemed really buggy a week and a half ago.
20100528 00:48:39< esr> Sorry, I'm confused.  I dont's see a branches directory
20100528 00:48:54< Aethaeryn> hmm
20100528 00:49:00< Aethaeryn> ../branches/1.8?
20100528 00:49:08< Aethaeryn> there's ../trunk and ../branches, or should be.
20100528 00:49:23< Aethaeryn> hmm, sorry, ~/trunk and ~/branches, would be ../branches/1.8 if you're in trunk
20100528 00:49:41< Aethaeryn> Modern OSes don't make you use the command line enough, I'm getting rusty.
20100528 00:50:28< Gambit> Some modern OSes hate their command line so much that they castrate it.
20100528 00:50:56< Aethaeryn> do cell phone OSes even have command lines?
20100528 00:51:08< Gambit> If you install linux
20100528 00:51:19< Aethaeryn> they all are Linuxes
20100528 00:51:24< Gambit> Aethaeryn: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/loadingreadyrun/1726-Installation-Anxiety-2010
20100528 00:51:24< Aethaeryn> except for iPhone, WinMo, and Blackberry
20100528 00:51:51< Aethaeryn> the majority of smartphone OSes (though not, I think the majority of smartphones) are Linux-based
20100528 00:52:00< esr> Aethaeryn: My wesnoth-umc-dev checkout doesn't have those.  How did you make yours?
20100528 00:52:14< Aethaeryn> esr: I checked out a separate /branches.
20100528 00:52:18< Aethaeryn> since the default checkout is only trunk
20100528 00:53:04< Aethaeryn> wait, no, I checked out /branches/1.6 and /branches/1.8
20100528 00:53:07< esr> What incantation did you use?
20100528 00:53:09< Aethaeryn> since /branches/* has a lot of folders.
20100528 00:53:36< AI0867> svn co  https://wesnoth-umc-dev.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/wesnoth-umc-dev/branches/1.8
20100528 00:54:23< Aethaeryn> svn co https://wesnoth-umc-dev.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/wesnoth-umc-dev/branches branches
20100528 00:54:26< Aethaeryn> svn co https://wesnoth-umc-dev.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/wesnoth-umc-dev/branches/1.8 1.8
20100528 00:54:31< Aethaeryn> depending on whether you want all branches or just 1.8
20100528 00:54:42< Aethaeryn> woah, this 3G temporary Internet lags
20100528 01:01:41< Aethaeryn> esr: do you think porting Wesnoth to Android would be a potential GSOC project next summer? With the native SDK that Firefox Mobile uses, it is possible, and I could release it for free and with a more faithful feature set (hopefully with the add-on server functioning)...
20100528 01:01:56< Aethaeryn> and the changes could allow Wesnoth to have better small screen and touch support.
20100528 01:02:24< Aethaeryn> I would use Android standard commands, such as hold touch to get right-click menu.
20100528 01:02:30< esr> Androi's going to have native C++ support?
20100528 01:02:50-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has joined #wesnoth-umc-dev
20100528 01:03:00< Aethaeryn> http://developer.android.com/sdk/ndk/index.html
20100528 01:03:22< Aethaeryn> afaik, part of it still has to be ported to Java, but most of the engine would stay C++
20100528 01:03:27< Aethaeryn> Perhaps just the interface in Java.
20100528 01:04:13< Aethaeryn> Anyway, I'd be willing to do more than the iPhone version: I'd release it for free. GSOC's $5k would be more than enough, especially if it takes two summers to get it right.
20100528 01:04:13< AI0867> I've tried some JNI lately, it's not very pretty, but it works
20100528 01:04:48< Aethaeryn> My ultimate goal would be to keep it exactly on par with mainline.
20100528 01:05:07< Aethaeryn> So 1.8.1 would be 1.8.1 and if there's platform-specific bugfixes it would be 1.8.1.1
20100528 01:05:13< Gambit> Aethaeryn: Supposedly Christheturtle is doing an android port using python.
20100528 01:05:17< Gambit> I have no idea how true/possible that is.
20100528 01:05:23< Elvish_Pillager> Any of you know a way to use [store_locations] or anything to get a terrain's image?
20100528 01:05:29< Aethaeryn> It would also have add-on server working, since I'm an add-on publisher and I'm selfish.
20100528 01:05:37< Aethaeryn> Gambit: I don't think you can use python for Android.
20100528 01:05:45< Elvish_Pillager> Like, I want to have a message option to do something at a particular hex, and I want an image of the terrain at that hex to illustrate
20100528 01:05:52< Aethaeryn> Gambit: I checked in #android a few months ago
20100528 01:05:53< Gambit> Elvish_Pillager: Not possible. The image isn't stored in the location. But if you had a list of images to compare the terrain letter to...
20100528 01:06:03< Aethaeryn> Python is intended just for little shell scripts, not full support.
20100528 01:06:06< Aethaeryn> And it's supposedly rather slow.
20100528 01:06:14< Elvish_Pillager> Hmm. So if I know every terrain that is on the map...
20100528 01:06:14< Aethaeryn> Unless 2.1 magically fixed Python and I don't know about it.
20100528 01:06:23< Elvish_Pillager> Also, same question about a unit's movement cost on the terrain.
20100528 01:06:32< AI0867> Aethaeryn: you can, jython
20100528 01:06:40< Gambit> Elvish_Pillager: I like using the terrain's editor icon.
20100528 01:06:43< Aethaeryn> ...
20100528 01:06:47< AI0867> it's python running on a jvm
20100528 01:06:55< Gambit> Since the images themselves vary in size
20100528 01:06:57< Aethaeryn> AI0867: You'd take a major performance hit.
20100528 01:07:01< AI0867> it can also use anything the java code could use
20100528 01:07:05< Aethaeryn> And on phones with 1 GHz processors, you don't want that.
20100528 01:07:13< AI0867> compared to cpython, about a factor 2
20100528 01:07:21< Aethaeryn> Because most Androids don't have 1 GHz processors ;)
20100528 01:07:33< Gambit> Elvish_Pillager: The unit's movement cost should be accesable with variables if movetypes are expanded in SaveWML
20100528 01:07:47< AI0867> I have my doubts about the feasibility of that project though
20100528 01:08:06< AI0867> if the python port is done, adding android support would indeed be easier
20100528 01:08:15< Elvish_Pillager> Gambit: Yeah, but the problem is that I know the terrain is Ww and I know the unit's movement cost on shallow_water, but I don't know the unit's movement cost on Ww.
20100528 01:08:29< AI0867> but as silene said, porting 200KLOC+ of C++ to python won't be easy
20100528 01:08:29< Aethaeryn> AI0867: Anyway, the reason why I want to port it to Android myself is threefold: (1) I want it on my nexus one, (2) I want people to do both latest MP (iPhone doesn't keep up with stables, is still 1.6) and add-ons (iPhone just semi-mainlines some add-on campaigns)
20100528 01:08:45< Gambit> Elvish_Pillager: You know that it will always be exactly the same unit type?
20100528 01:08:47< Aethaeryn> AI0867: (3) I want Wesnoth to be free on Android.
20100528 01:08:53< Elvish_Pillager> Gambit: No, why?
20100528 01:08:54< Aethaeryn> That will say something about iPhone v. Android.
20100528 01:09:03< Gambit> Nevermind then.
20100528 01:09:14< Gambit> Elvish_Pillager: How are you looking up it's shallow water movement?
20100528 01:09:24< Elvish_Pillager> stored_unit.movement_costs.shallow_water
20100528 01:09:27< Aethaeryn> AI0867: Besides, I think using the NDK effectively would basically require using Java, not python...
20100528 01:09:41< Aethaeryn> So you only have to port pieces, not the whole thing.
20100528 01:09:47< Elvish_Pillager> this has been a usable mechanism for a while now
20100528 01:09:54< Gambit> it's just deep_water isn't it?
20100528 01:10:01< Elvish_Pillager> what?
20100528 01:10:02< Gambit> Worked in wespets.
20100528 01:10:13< Gambit> stored_unit.movement_costs.deep_water
20100528 01:10:20< Elvish_Pillager> Ww is shallow water.
20100528 01:10:34< Gambit> K. And?
20100528 01:10:34< AI0867> Aethaeryn: jython can cleanly run on the jvm itself, so that wouldn't be NDK
20100528 01:10:38< AI0867> that'd just be plain SDK
20100528 01:10:47< Aethaeryn> AI0867: Exactly.
20100528 01:10:53< Elvish_Pillager> I'm talking about when I'm looking at an arbitrary unit and an arbitrary hex. I want to know if there's a way to determine the unit's movement cost on the hex.
20100528 01:10:54< Aethaeryn> AI0867: You *want* to use the NDK.
20100528 01:11:02< AI0867> for performance?
20100528 01:11:04< Gambit> Oh okay.
20100528 01:11:06< Aethaeryn> So you only rewrite a bit of it in Java, the minimum necessary, and leave the rest in C++
20100528 01:11:09< AI0867> then you don't want a python port either
20100528 01:11:13< Aethaeryn> For performance, and for sanity.
20100528 01:11:15< Aethaeryn> You need both.
20100528 01:11:19< Gambit> Elvish_Pillager: You need a list of terrain letters and the terrain types they correspond to.
20100528 01:11:25< Aethaeryn> Again, the highest end Androids are still 1 GHz
20100528 01:11:27< Gambit> And a macro that will compare them.
20100528 01:11:29< Elvish_Pillager> Bother.
20100528 01:11:32< Gambit> Indeed.
20100528 01:11:37< Aethaeryn> so most of the work will be with performance
20100528 01:11:40< Elvish_Pillager> AND incompatible with custom terrains.
20100528 01:11:46< AI0867> I read something a few days ago about PyPy now outperforming CPython, but yes, it will still be significantly slower than pure C++
20100528 01:11:47< Elvish_Pillager> AND really complicated with overlays.
20100528 01:11:54< Elvish_Pillager> Not gonna do it.
20100528 01:12:10 * Elvish_Pillager blames the Wesnoth devs for the inconsistency of their approach
20100528 01:12:22< Elvish_Pillager> oh, and by "their" I'm referring to myself, sorry
20100528 01:12:26< Aethaeryn> AI0867: If there's one thing I've learned in life is that if you want something done right you have to do it yourself.
20100528 01:12:45< Gambit> Unless it's art.
20100528 01:12:48< Aethaeryn> Which is why *I* will have to get Wesnoth running on *my* nexus one... for $0...
20100528 01:12:57< Aethaeryn> And I'll be kind enough to share the code.
20100528 01:13:26-!- happygrue [~George@wesnoth/developer/wintermute] has joined #wesnoth-umc-dev
20100528 01:13:33< Aethaeryn> Ideally, it should be as close to upstream as possible to keep up-to-date.
20100528 01:14:08< Gambit> On that note, how will the iphone stay up to date? It's already lost it's cross platform multiplayer.
20100528 01:14:18< Gambit> *second it's ->its
20100528 01:14:26< Aethaeryn> Actaully, the perfect ideal would be to just have the poor processor support and touch/phone GUI thing be compile options and actually having the rest be *part* of upstream.
20100528 01:14:44< Aethaeryn> And again, it would be $0.
20100528 01:15:14< Aethaeryn> The one thing more noble than giving something away for free is to give away something for free that people *expect* to pay for.
20100528 01:16:03< Gambit> The iPhone port is a large source of income for Wesnoth.
20100528 01:16:12< Espreon> Silly neologisms...
20100528 01:16:23< Espreon> ... confusing everyone...
20100528 01:16:25< Aethaeryn> Gambit: I've talked to noy.
20100528 01:16:29< Aethaeryn> The Wesnoth project does not want/need money.
20100528 01:16:48< Gambit> Oh so they don't want/need to fund WSAS?
20100528 01:16:53< Aethaeryn> I interpret that, if I get to do the project, as "the Android port will be $0"
20100528 01:16:59< Aethaeryn> If the Wesnoth project thinks otherwise, blame noy.
20100528 01:17:05< Aethaeryn> :P
20100528 01:17:32< noy> There is a certain capacity we can fund, we don't need money over that amount. 
20100528 01:17:35< Aethaeryn> But on a serious note...
20100528 01:17:47< Aethaeryn> The point of the Wesnoth iPhone port costing money is that Kyle wanted money as compensation.
20100528 01:18:17< Aethaeryn> Money would be nice, but if I get to do it as a GSOC next year, I don't need money from selling the game.
20100528 01:18:25< Aethaeryn> In fact, it would be unethical and possibly against the GSOC rules.
20100528 01:18:37< Aethaeryn> And I would rather do a GSOC than to charge for a game.
20100528 01:18:49< Gambit> noy: Do you guys plan to do non-google scholarships on a yearly basis?
20100528 01:19:05< noy> if we have money, yes
20100528 01:19:34< Aethaeryn> Gambit: There's also the issue of a much freer marketplace. You'd have to compete with someone perhaps taking it from the source and releasing a "pirate" Wesnoth for $0 perfectly legally... or just people installing from outside the marketplace, which is allowed on non-rooted Android.
20100528 01:19:56< Aethaeryn> Gambit: Put briefly, it's a lot harder to charge for open source on Android than on iPhone, since Android really is open-source friendly.
20100528 01:20:51< Aethaeryn> Maybe someone will disagree with me, rewrite Wesnoth into FORTRAN and then get that running on Android. But if *I* do the port, I do not want to charge.
20100528 01:21:40< Aethaeryn> For me, that's about as stupid as having to pay for the Xchat IRC client on Windows but not on Linux...
20100528 01:22:05< Aethaeryn> Having been one affected by having something cost sometimes and be free sometimes, I would rather have it be free.
20100528 01:22:25< noy> well, Kyle will eventually upgrade it to 1.8
20100528 01:22:29< Aethaeryn> If money is really an issue, I could donate some of the GSOC money directly to WSAS.
20100528 01:22:41< noy> it seems as if he'll keep with it. 
20100528 01:23:03< Aethaeryn> Yes, but iPhone is not Android, and there are certain decisions he made that I would not.
20100528 01:23:38< Aethaeryn> If possible, I would (as an author of non-campaign UMC that will thus never be in the iPhone port) enable the add-on server, rather than just adding a campaign every update.
20100528 01:24:21< noy> I think the decisions he made were largely determined by technical limitations
20100528 01:24:46< noy> especially that one.
20100528 01:24:54< Aethaeryn> Android is a freer platform. Iirc, 2.2 allows installing to SD card.
20100528 01:25:07< Aethaeryn> I *think* I will be able to get something going.
20100528 01:25:28< noy> someone else is trying to port it as well
20100528 01:25:45< Aethaeryn> In jpython. Not with the NDK.
20100528 01:26:08< Aethaeryn> I don't think he'll be able to rewrite the entire game in Python, and if he does, he'll have no way to keep up with upstream as easily and performance will be bad on all the non-Snapdragon Android devices.
20100528 01:27:11< Aethaeryn> I'm lazy. I try to find the easiest way to do something. Not necessarily the easiest short-term way to do something, either. The most annoying part about code is maintaining it. The more that is put in the NDK and not rewritten, the easier it will be to update.
20100528 01:30:05< Aethaeryn> But if someone else is doing it in a way that will take much longer, I will welcome the competition. Will encourage me to get started on it before next summer, and assuming the NDK works as advertized, it will save a lot of effort.
20100528 01:32:13< Aethaeryn> esr: did you ever get branches/1.8 working?
20100528 01:32:34< esr> Yes, I'm tweaking your seccons scenario now.
20100528 01:33:03< Aethaeryn> ah, cool, thanks.
20100528 01:37:27< Aethaeryn> This is probably going to be my last project before returning to Thunderstone.
20100528 01:37:46< Aethaeryn> Had to ease my way into campaign-making experience by starting with a domain I am familiar with (RPGs/MP)
20100528 01:38:41< Aethaeryn> Will probably update two maps, release my building era, and release a half-complete this... and that's all I have before Thunderstone the rest of the summer.
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20100528 01:43:49< esr> Aethaeryn: Why are they talking about raising the river to make it possible to cross it?  Shouldn't they be aiming to lower it?
20100528 01:44:27< Aethaeryn> esr: Oh, you mean lowering the water levl to make it crossable?
20100528 01:44:34< esr> Yes.
20100528 01:44:43< Aethaeryn> Ah, good catch.
20100528 01:47:59< esr> First pass done.  Rereading.
20100528 02:00:31< Aethaeryn> brb
20100528 02:01:30<+CIA-34> wesnoth-umc-dev: AI0867 * r7199 /branches/maintenance-toolchain/umcpropfix: Add po to umcpropfix
20100528 02:01:41< Aethaeryn> back
20100528 02:13:12< esr> Aethaeryn: Dialogue polished.
20100528 02:14:19< Aethaeryn> cool :)
20100528 02:14:22< Aethaeryn> esr: did you do the dialect thing?
20100528 02:14:30< esr> Yes.
20100528 02:14:36< Aethaeryn> cool :)
20100528 02:15:13< Aethaeryn> If it's possible to set names for player leaders in MP games (I think it is, I thought I saw one in a MP campaign before) I probably want to name the leaders.
20100528 02:15:30< Aethaeryn> So I can give them consistant IDs and so I can make 2p and 1p versions available where leaders are just gameloss heroes
20100528 02:15:49< Aethaeryn> Might also help richen the dialog a bit
20100528 02:16:39< Aethaeryn> esr: You are a good writer, did you do any fiction?
20100528 02:16:44< Aethaeryn> (I know of your non-fiction book.)
20100528 02:16:54< esr> Yep, but haven't sold any yet.
20100528 02:21:05< Aethaeryn> I really should read more...
20100528 02:21:19< Aethaeryn> But if school does one thing, it takes away all your reading time and your will to read ;)
20100528 02:21:38< Aethaeryn> I don't expect to spend a serious amount of time reading for pleasure until after I graduate.
20100528 02:24:45< Aethaeryn> esr: Got any new campaigns planned?
20100528 02:25:11< esr> Not currently.  fendrin and I need to finisg Wings of Victory.
20100528 02:27:46< Aethaeryn> ah, right, the drake one
20100528 02:28:14< Aethaeryn> was going to do a drake one right before thunderstone, but since you were doing it I did this dwarf one instead.
20100528 02:28:27< Aethaeryn> I think dwarves may have more campaigns than humans now :)
20100528 02:28:37< Aethaeryn> really, that's due to your work.
20100528 02:28:44< Aethaeryn> oh, hmm
20100528 02:28:50< Aethaeryn> esr: did you upload the new dialog?
20100528 02:29:00< Aethaeryn> CIA isn't reporting anything.
20100528 02:29:22< esr> Oh, fuck.
20100528 02:29:26< esr> Password for '(null)' GNOME keyring: svn: Commit failed (details follow):
20100528 02:29:28< esr> svn: MKACTIVITY of '/svnroot/wesnoth-umc-dev/!svn/act/f2885cea-cba9-470b-99b0-92f988ab6cd0': authorization failed: Could not authenticate to server: rejected Basic challenge (https://wesnoth-umc-dev.svn.sourceforge.net)
20100528 02:29:36< Aethaeryn> huh?
20100528 02:29:53< Aethaeryn> I can check out new parts of wesnoth-umc-dev in my ~/SVN folder and I've never needed to reauthenticate.
20100528 02:29:59< esr> That's the error message I goy.  Who knows WTF it means.
20100528 02:30:22< Aethaeryn> well, I think "could not authenticate" means it has some problem with logging in
20100528 02:30:25< Aethaeryn> that's half of the message ;)
20100528 02:30:28< AI0867> gnome keyring hijacked your svn password storage
20100528 02:30:57< AI0867> you need to enter your local account's password to unlock it
20100528 02:31:16< esr> Enter it where?
20100528 02:31:52< AI0867> what interface are you using?
20100528 02:32:19<+CIA-34> wesnoth-umc-dev: esr * r7200 /branches/1.8/Underlands_RPG/scenarios/02_Unknown_Chambers.cfg: Dialogue polish.
20100528 02:32:21< esr> Never mind, I got it.  
20100528 02:32:44< esr> Now, how do I take a hammer to GNOME keyring so it will never do that again?
20100528 02:32:59< AI0867> not sure, unfortunately
20100528 02:34:16< AI0867> apt-get remove gnome-keyring would work, but if you use gnome, apt will complain about dependencies
20100528 02:35:40 * Espreon just loooves Portage.
20100528 02:36:27< AI0867> portage would also complain about the gnome metapackage, I believe =P
20100528 02:36:48< AI0867> of course, you can get rid of that, but that's the same for every package manager
20100528 02:36:52< Espreon> No, it doesn't complain.
20100528 02:37:03< Espreon> Just "emerge --unmerge mu" and... no questions asked.
20100528 02:37:45< Elvish_Pillager> Aethaeryn: Got the ships, boarding and disembarking working again (and cleaner than they were before).
20100528 02:37:47< Espreon> It will only hesitate if the package has been marked as protected/essential/whatever.
20100528 02:38:25< Elvish_Pillager> I must have been really impatient when I was writing this code the first time.
20100528 02:38:54< Aethaeryn> esr: nice touches.
20100528 02:39:05< esr> Thanks.
20100528 02:39:15< Aethaeryn> the last half of the conversation part was what I felt was particularly weak before your revisions.
20100528 02:40:49< Aethaeryn> I particularly like: "Yeah, lower the waters and keep your gold warm for when we return!"
20100528 02:42:37< Aethaeryn> esr: what do you think about my idea of having an item (at the village at the start of scenario 3) called "Ale"? heals you +4, max HP +2, and lasts for 3 turns. The more you use in one turn, the more likely it is that your melee attack gains the berserk special for the length of the effect (3 turns)
20100528 02:42:52< Aethaeryn> I think it's a nice twist on healing potions other (non-Dwarf) RPGs have.
20100528 02:43:29< esr> That could be entertaining.  I could see it being reused.
20100528 02:44:28< Aethaeryn> data/core/images/icons even has an ale icon
20100528 02:45:56< Aethaeryn> hmm, I think red potions should be healing and green potions be max HP, but that's only because those are the only two potion effects I can think of for Wesnoth...
20100528 02:46:18< Aethaeryn> there's four potion images in mainline: red medium, red small, green medium, green small
20100528 02:46:30< Elvish_Pillager> Aethaeryn, really?!
20100528 02:46:31< Aethaeryn> esr: any ideas for perhaps more creative effects?
20100528 02:46:46< Elvish_Pillager> e.g. potions of temporary battle strength
20100528 02:47:01< Elvish_Pillager> potions of poison
20100528 02:47:03< Aethaeryn> I think I'm going to code the inventory system...
20100528 02:47:10< Elvish_Pillager> (or more seriously poison weapon I guess?)
20100528 02:47:13< Aethaeryn> inventory and upgrade.
20100528 02:47:21< Elvish_Pillager> Potions of experience
20100528 02:47:25< Aethaeryn> Elvish_Pillager: poison for green makes sense, but it would take it off limits for the player.
20100528 02:47:47< Aethaeryn> potions of experience, I know those from RPG games, but I'm not sure how useful those would be in the Wesnoth setting
20100528 02:47:51< Elvish_Pillager> heh
20100528 02:47:52< Aethaeryn> perhaps either useless or *too* useful
20100528 02:48:00< Elvish_Pillager> potions of see invisible? :p
20100528 02:48:18< Aethaeryn> ah, so you can see all the nightstalk units
20100528 02:48:27< Aethaeryn> if nightstalk works underground
20100528 02:48:30< Elvish_Pillager> It does
20100528 02:48:41< Aethaeryn> hah, maybe I should do a room of shadows
20100528 02:48:42< Aethaeryn> for lulz
20100528 02:48:47< Elvish_Pillager> I abused that to win one of the IftU scenarios easily a while ago
20100528 02:48:50< Aethaeryn> since the ToD is underground
20100528 02:49:08< Aethaeryn> I abused shadows in the one DiD scenario
20100528 02:49:16< Aethaeryn> where you have to sneak into the building
20100528 02:49:17< Aethaeryn> to steal the book
20100528 02:49:26< Aethaeryn> and where the ToD is set at midnight
20100528 02:49:28 * Elvish_Pillager hasn't played much of DiD
20100528 02:49:32< Aethaeryn> I just assassinated the general with 4 shadows, maybe lost 1
20100528 02:49:42< Aethaeryn> I played it when it was new in 1.3
20100528 02:49:52< Elvish_Pillager> Assassination, okay
20100528 02:50:09< Elvish_Pillager> The IftU scenario was one where you have to step on about six runes that are all over an underground tunnel map
20100528 02:50:16< Elvish_Pillager> with monsters in it
20100528 02:50:24< Elvish_Pillager> so I sent shadows to step on the runes
20100528 02:50:47< Aethaeryn> lol
20100528 02:50:53< Elvish_Pillager> IIRC shadow_master has fixed that by putting strong units on the rune hexes or something.
20100528 02:51:05< Aethaeryn> yeah.
20100528 02:51:20< Aethaeryn> I try to play my scenarios as unintended as possible, find ways to break my own stuff
20100528 02:51:53< Elvish_Pillager> crap, my zoc-imitator was having you zoc'd by your own units
20100528 02:51:56 * Elvish_Pillager fixes
20100528 02:52:21< Aethaeryn> oooh
20100528 02:52:31< Aethaeryn> Elvish_Pillager: Beta is back
20100528 02:52:40< Aethaeryn> want to see how broken/imbalanced the last fight is?
20100528 02:52:51< Elvish_Pillager> no
20100528 02:53:01< Elvish_Pillager> find someone else to play my side?
20100528 02:53:08< Elvish_Pillager> you want THS done, right?
20100528 02:53:21< Aethaeryn> :(
20100528 02:53:22< Aethaeryn> fine
20100528 02:53:25< Aethaeryn> you win
20100528 02:58:59<+CIA-34> wesnoth-umc-dev: aethaeryn * r7201 /branches/1.8/Underlands_RPG/scenarios/02_Unknown_Chambers.cfg: Typo... mea culpa.
20100528 03:00:35< Elvish_Pillager> wow, there are so many kinds of villages now
20100528 03:03:41< Elvish_Pillager> tavern, barracks, market, shipyard, and various raidable places. I don't need to worry about the raidable places.
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20100528 03:28:03< Aethaeryn> Elvish_Pillager: how about green is some attack booster?
20100528 03:28:11< Aethaeryn> how about an extra melee strike?
20100528 03:28:25< Elvish_Pillager> why not?
20100528 03:28:51< Elvish_Pillager> If it's that, how about calling it a speed potion and giving you extra moves too? Then it's dual-purpose, which is nice
20100528 03:29:19< Aethaeryn>  yes, extra melee strike, +2 moves...
20100528 03:29:25< Aethaeryn> medium potion lasts 4 turns, small lasts 2 turns
20100528 03:30:19< Aethaeryn> because an extra melee strike +2 moves would be too powerful, especially if it could stack.
20100528 03:30:29< Aethaeryn> So in this case, it doesn't stack in terms of benefits but in terms of length
20100528 03:30:42< Aethaeryn> so two green potions won't give you +2 strikes and +4 moves, but rather double the length it lasts
20100528 03:30:47< Aethaeryn> so 8 turns or 4 turns or 6 turns :P
20100528 03:30:51< Elvish_Pillager> yeah
20100528 03:31:01< Elvish_Pillager> be sure to put an indicator of it somewhere
20100528 03:31:24< Elvish_Pillager> e.g. an ability on the unit "hasted (3)"
20100528 03:32:51< Elvish_Pillager> Aethaeryn: Do you know of any particular reason that THS's recruitment is on moveto, instead of as a menu item when you're in a shop?
20100528 03:33:13< Aethaeryn> Elvish_Pillager: Yeah, I'll do it that way
20100528 03:33:15< Aethaeryn> potion of haste...
20100528 03:33:21< Aethaeryn> and you add to it based on potion.
20100528 03:33:25< Aethaeryn> It'll actually be extremely useful
20100528 03:33:33< Aethaeryn> speed is so useful on dwarves
20100528 03:33:54< Aethaeryn> 4 MP dwarves will go to 6 MP and be faster than the average (leaders and most starting units are quick and thus 5 MP)
20100528 03:34:11< Aethaeryn> if only for 8 turns or however many you can buy
20100528 03:34:49< Aethaeryn> so green = haste (+2 turns small, +4 turns medium), red = healing +4 (small) and +8 (medium)
20100528 03:35:00< Aethaeryn> and ale = +2 heal, +4 hitpoints for 3 turns
20100528 03:35:20< Aethaeryn> oh soh sorry, +2 heal +2 HP
20100528 03:35:28< Aethaeryn> only lasts 3 turns
20100528 03:35:39< Aethaeryn> and the more ale you ingest in a turn, the more likely you are to have berserk for 3 turns
20100528 03:35:42< Aethaeryn> in melee, of course
20100528 03:35:46< Elvish_Pillager> ha ha
20100528 03:36:58< Aethaeryn> and those will be the staple items you can stock up lots on
20100528 03:37:40< Aethaeryn> brown's 6 MP scout would be 8 MP on haste, a leader or other 5 MP dwarf will be 7 MP on haste, and even a slow 4 MP guy will outrun the average with 6 MP on haste
20100528 03:37:43< Aethaeryn> very useful potion
20100528 03:37:51< Aethaeryn> in fact, that's probably the main use of the troll cave gold
20100528 03:37:53< Aethaeryn> lots of haste :P
20100528 03:38:11< Elvish_Pillager> heh
20100528 03:38:19< Elvish_Pillager> and if you get really drunk on haste, your attack is super
20100528 03:38:56< Elvish_Pillager> did you see my question?
20100528 03:47:06< Aethaeryn> oh
20100528 03:47:07< Aethaeryn> idk why
20100528 03:47:11< Aethaeryn> probably taste
20100528 03:47:16< Aethaeryn> if you want menu, it's okay
20100528 03:47:26< Aethaeryn> I even have my pick up items as menu
20100528 03:47:29< Elvish_Pillager> Taste?! Moveto events taste horrible :)
20100528 03:47:39< Aethaeryn> so you can see what they are on moveto but then have warning as to which unit to give it to :P
20100528 03:47:48 * Elvish_Pillager makes it a menu
20100528 04:07:05< Elvish_Pillager> Hmm. THS says "...you can hire outlaws to join your crew." I want a nicer word than "outlaws"
20100528 04:07:24< Elvish_Pillager> that means something more like "free agents"
20100528 04:09:12 * Elvish_Pillager goes with "mercenaries", it seems fairly neutral for them
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20100528 04:29:17< Elvish_Pillager> Aethaeryn: Barracks and Tavern are now fully functional, improving in multiple ways upon the original THS.
20100528 04:29:54< Elvish_Pillager> Also made an Orcish Town shop in case anyone wants to make a map where you can hire Orcs (since there's specifically orcish village terrain now.)
20100528 04:30:02< Aethaeryn> yes
20100528 04:30:08< Aethaeryn> would make sense if there's an orc region
20100528 04:33:21< Elvish_Pillager> Hmm.
20100528 04:33:29< Elvish_Pillager> Need to make the cannons/rigging/helm effects.
20100528 04:33:52< Elvish_Pillager> We never did figure out a good system for those.
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20100528 04:38:57< Elvish_Pillager> Aethaeryn: I think the ideal system would be that you'd have a unit use up its move and attack at the cannon/rigging to get you the swing/moves for the turn. But to have full control, the system would have to be that you'd have to manually activate all your guys each turn.
20100528 04:39:57< Elvish_Pillager> The opposite method would be that you could only set your units to act now AND automatically act at the beginning of each turn until you tell them to stop. Then you'd have to tell them to stop the turn BEFORE you needed to use them for something else.
20100528 04:40:29< Elvish_Pillager> do you see a compromise solution or anything?
20100528 04:42:34< Elvish_Pillager> I mean, even if setting them to automatic is only optional, it would be annoying to have the automatic setting actually be disadvantageous to you (e.g. if you're boarded by surprise)
20100528 04:50:25< Aethaeryn> how does this differ from the original method?
20100528 04:52:19< Elvish_Pillager> Completely.
20100528 04:52:28< Aethaeryn> oh right
20100528 04:52:33< Aethaeryn> off plank exploir
20100528 04:52:36< Aethaeryn> *exploit
20100528 04:52:43< Elvish_Pillager> Well, not just that
20100528 04:52:54< Elvish_Pillager> IIRC, you could fire the cannons with a unit and then fight with it in the same turn
20100528 04:53:03< Elvish_Pillager> which I'd kind of like to avoid
20100528 04:53:08< Aethaeryn> iirc, you had a good way to hammer home the point that something is broken.
20100528 04:53:16< Elvish_Pillager> yeah, I remember that :p
20100528 04:53:18< Aethaeryn> like by having an entire island full of people still manning a cannon
20100528 04:53:29< Aethaeryn> iirc, I renamed the island KANON in the map
20100528 04:53:30< Elvish_Pillager> but that's the past now ^_^
20100528 04:53:44< Aethaeryn> it'll be kinda present when I update my map for 1.8 and your era :P
20100528 04:53:52< Aethaeryn> will be fun to play it again
20100528 04:54:14< Elvish_Pillager> I mean, the exploit is in the past.
20100528 04:54:25< Aethaeryn> wow
20100528 04:54:30< Aethaeryn> was it really last November or so
20100528 04:54:32< Aethaeryn> maybe een before...
20100528 04:54:36< Elvish_Pillager> Before
20100528 04:54:39< Aethaeryn> when we last did all of this stuff?
20100528 04:54:43< Elvish_Pillager> last summer
20100528 04:54:51< Aethaeryn> I can't believe so much has happened
20100528 04:54:59< Aethaeryn> oh, I remember all those Modern Combat games
20100528 04:55:16< Aethaeryn> damn, time goes by fast when you have to do meaningless busywork three times a week for a long time
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20100528 04:57:14< Elvish_Pillager> I just don't see a good solution. Every cannon-use model I've come up with has a crucial flaw.
20100528 04:57:52< Aethaeryn> hmm
20100528 04:58:42< Elvish_Pillager> There's either a 1-turn delay in making them work, or a 1-turn delay in stopping them, or you have to manually order them every turn.
20100528 04:59:02< Elvish_Pillager> ...or they can both fight and man the stuff at the same time.
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20100528 05:01:09< Aethaeryn> I see no problem to fighting and manning at the same time
20100528 05:01:15< Aethaeryn> what if you filter for attacks?
20100528 05:01:17< Aethaeryn> when they man it.
20100528 05:01:26< Aethaeryn> so if they use an attack, they automatically unman
20100528 05:01:34< Elvish_Pillager> that doesn't work because:
20100528 05:01:44< Elvish_Pillager> you can move the ship, then deactivate all the guys from the rigging to fight.
20100528 05:01:47< Aethaeryn> would add a new tactic: boarding a ship and attacking the mast bearers to have them unmast
20100528 05:04:22< Elvish_Pillager> what if:
20100528 05:04:48< Elvish_Pillager> you need to use up an attack to start manning. manning activates immediately and on all subsequent turns, including the one in which you un-man, and you can't move or attack while manned.
20100528 05:04:57< Elvish_Pillager> But you can move and attack on the same turn you unman.
20100528 05:05:04< Aethaeryn> mwelworks
20100528 05:05:22< Aethaeryn> *well, works.
20100528 05:05:42< Elvish_Pillager> It seems slightly distasteful to me that you can get the manning bonus constantly without manning constantly
20100528 05:05:47< Elvish_Pillager> but that hardly matters in practice.
20100528 05:06:03< Aethaeryn> yeah
20100528 05:06:11< Aethaeryn> micromanaging is bad anyway
20100528 05:06:12< Elvish_Pillager> Got it. Will implement that shortly.
20100528 05:06:21< Aethaeryn> games tend toward less and less micro as their engines advance
20100528 05:06:35< Aethaeryn> in AoE you had to build farms and manually rebuild them or whatever...
20100528 05:06:48< Aethaeryn> in AoE 2 you just had to right click to reharvest the same area when a sound played
20100528 05:06:58< Aethaeryn> and in AoE 2's expansion you could cue up auto-reharvest
20100528 05:07:13< Aethaeryn> and in AoE 3 you just put 10 or so in one building and never rebuilt it
20100528 05:10:08< Aethaeryn> though it seems like they actually passed a sweet spot
20100528 05:10:15< Aethaeryn> since it gets too automatic :P
20100528 05:10:23< Aethaeryn> but you even see that in add-ons
20100528 05:10:33< Aethaeryn> originally in ANL you had to manually plant a farm and manually harvest when it was ready
20100528 05:10:38< Aethaeryn> then you just had to stand in later versions
20100528 05:10:52< Elvish_Pillager> Hmm. Problem with what I suggested: a single dude can man more than one thing in a turn.
20100528 05:10:53< Aethaeryn> based on numerous trends of farming getting simpler...
20100528 05:10:57< Aethaeryn> one day farmville...
20100528 05:11:13< Aethaeryn> Elvish_Pillager: could it also take all his MP?
20100528 05:11:22< Aethaeryn> and all his MP would be at 0 if he was still manning
20100528 05:11:31< Elvish_Pillager> but what if you stop manning?
20100528 05:11:34-!- King_Elendil [~King_Elen@75.143.233.138] has quit [Quit: I hope y'all have a nice day ;)]
20100528 05:11:39< Elvish_Pillager> my suggestion was that you lose all MP when you start
20100528 05:11:42< Aethaeryn> but if you unman (provided it isn't the same turn you manned the post) you get all your MP back
20100528 05:11:50< Aethaeryn> so you will have no MP unless you unman. Period.
20100528 05:11:53< Elvish_Pillager> that's what I'm suggesting
20100528 05:11:56< Elvish_Pillager> But you unman
20100528 05:12:01< Elvish_Pillager> then you run to something else and man on the same turn
20100528 05:12:06< Elvish_Pillager> and you get the benefits of both
20100528 05:12:10< Aethaeryn> no, your attack would still be spent.
20100528 05:12:17< Aethaeryn> you'd get your MP back, not your attack.
20100528 05:12:18< Elvish_Pillager> hmm
20100528 05:12:25< Aethaeryn> and you need to spend your attack to man.
20100528 05:12:35< Elvish_Pillager> That'd make you slow to defend against surprise boarding
20100528 05:12:37< Aethaeryn> and again, you can only get your MP back the turn after you start manning
20100528 05:12:42< Aethaeryn> I suppose
20100528 05:12:49< Aethaeryn> but that can be a drawback ion purpose
20100528 05:12:51< Elvish_Pillager> the enemies already get the first attack
20100528 05:13:04< Aethaeryn> perhaps give lag time in boarding?
20100528 05:13:07< Aethaeryn> have them board slowed?
20100528 05:13:11< Elvish_Pillager> Meh.
20100528 05:13:15< Aethaeryn> removes advantage to attacker right away
20100528 05:13:24< Aethaeryn> who would NOT be slowed if they were climbing on a ship?
20100528 05:13:26< Elvish_Pillager> But then actual defenders in the ship would make boarding pointless again
20100528 05:13:44< Aethaeryn> then lean toward boarding being too powerful
20100528 05:13:52< Aethaeryn> because that would encourage you keeping a force on board that's not manning anything
20100528 05:13:56< Elvish_Pillager> hmm
20100528 05:13:59< Aethaeryn> because in RL someone at a station *would* be slowed down
20100528 05:14:03< Aethaeryn> you'd just need a real defense force
20100528 05:14:14< Elvish_Pillager> okay
20100528 05:14:15< Aethaeryn> besides, good players will have lvl 0s on their ship doing the manning
20100528 05:14:16< Aethaeryn> for no upkeep
20100528 05:14:19< Aethaeryn> and soldiers to do fighting
20100528 05:14:25< Aethaeryn> does that solve everything?
20100528 05:14:31< Elvish_Pillager> so what's the model now?
20100528 05:14:35< Aethaeryn> (1) boarding takes all your MP, and your attack, and requires an attack.
20100528 05:14:39< Aethaeryn> *manning
20100528 05:15:01< Elvish_Pillager> (2) unmanning gives your MP but not your attack back, and the manning effect lingers for the turn
20100528 05:15:05< Aethaeryn> (2) if you unman you get to your max MP but you do not get your attack back, but only full MP if it's the turn after you started manning
20100528 05:15:17< Aethaeryn> so you can't just man a post to get full MP
20100528 05:15:22< Elvish_Pillager> heh yeah
20100528 05:15:25< Aethaeryn> since you would have to wait a turn to unman if you start manning
20100528 05:15:34< Aethaeryn> but once you unman you get full MP, just not an attack
20100528 05:15:41< Aethaeryn> and you need an attack in order to start manning
20100528 05:15:45< Aethaeryn> so you can't man more than one area
20100528 05:15:46< Aethaeryn> that work?
20100528 05:16:04< Elvish_Pillager> with a slight modification
20100528 05:16:13< Elvish_Pillager> You shouldn't be allowed to unman on the same turn you man ever
20100528 05:17:02< Aethaeryn> yeah
20100528 05:17:11< Elvish_Pillager> Okay, now I figure out how to code it :)
20100528 05:17:13< Aethaeryn> and you can't man something immediately after unmanning
20100528 05:17:20< Aethaeryn> since you have already spent your attack at the start of the turn.
20100528 05:17:20< Elvish_Pillager> right, because you have no attack
20100528 05:17:25< Aethaeryn> there'd be a turn lag...
20100528 05:17:31< Elvish_Pillager> I could also just make a rule against that
20100528 05:17:31< Aethaeryn> which is an acceptable thing
20100528 05:17:39< Aethaeryn> okay
20100528 05:17:44< Elvish_Pillager> Can't man/unman two times at all on the same turn
20100528 05:17:50< Elvish_Pillager> But you get your attack back when unmanning
20100528 05:18:41< Aethaeryn> you mean per unit?
20100528 05:18:45< Elvish_Pillager> yeah
20100528 05:18:49< Aethaeryn> because at start of game you'll have 8 people manning or w/e
20100528 05:18:50< Aethaeryn> :P
20100528 05:18:56< Elvish_Pillager> yeah yeah
20100528 05:41:47< Elvish_Pillager> Aethaeryn: In my old code, I made cannon shots run out as you used them in combat (so you couldn't get tons of retaliation strikes out of one guy manning a cannon.) Do you think this is a good idea?
20100528 05:43:15< Aethaeryn> nah
20100528 05:43:18< Aethaeryn> too unKISS imo
20100528 05:43:20< Aethaeryn> just imo though
20100528 05:43:24< Aethaeryn> haven't played it
20100528 05:43:49< Elvish_Pillager> IMO it's just as simple as the way Wesnoth normally works
20100528 05:44:26< Elvish_Pillager> and it's already not the same because of the whole manning thing in the first place, and the way it contains other units
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20100528 05:47:33< Aethaeryn> I guess a lot of this I"ll have to see
20100528 05:47:39< Aethaeryn> in a Wesalwyn game to see if it's annoying
20100528 05:47:48< Aethaeryn> I haven't really played THS since I made Wesalwyn last summer
20100528 05:48:00< Aethaeryn> in part because you pointed out so many exploits and bugs that Bob never fixed that my experience was ruined :'(
20100528 05:48:02< Elvish_Pillager> I have no real desire to implement it again (this isn't code I can copy over)
20100528 05:48:03< Aethaeryn> so...
20100528 05:48:13< Aethaeryn> I've been waiting for a year for you to release something :P
20100528 05:48:25< Elvish_Pillager> not quite a year yet ;)
20100528 05:48:40< Elvish_Pillager> They can say "EP gets things done within the year!"
20100528 05:48:49-!- Gambit [~Gambit@pa-67-234-73-7.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
20100528 05:48:52 * Espreon would wait at least one hundred years before expecting anything
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20100528 06:15:31< Espreon> Hello faryshta.
20100528 06:19:31< faryshta> Hello Espreon 
20100528 06:21:43< Elvish_Pillager> Aethaeryn: What should I name my era to distinguish it from the original THS's wml-less era?
20100528 06:22:59-!- faryshta [~faryshta@189.146.40.14] has quit [Quit: Saliendo]
20100528 06:23:07< Aethaeryn> Era of High Seas
20100528 06:26:08< Aethaeryn> Elvish_Pillager: So, did you update EoHS lately?
20100528 06:26:16< Elvish_Pillager> no
20100528 06:26:21< Elvish_Pillager> wait, misread that
20100528 06:26:29< Elvish_Pillager> latest version is a bugfix release from yesterday
20100528 06:26:36< Aethaeryn> hahahaha
20100528 06:26:40< Aethaeryn> you missed my pun ;)
20100528 06:26:54< Elvish_Pillager> mha ha
20100528 06:27:09< Elvish_Pillager> it is a stupid pun
20100528 06:27:42< Aethaeryn> but it works.
20100528 06:28:26< Aethaeryn> Elvish_Pillager: High Seas Ultimate?
20100528 06:28:29< Aethaeryn> Go the Windows Vista route ;)
20100528 06:28:30< Elvish_Pillager> meh
20100528 06:29:00< Elvish_Pillager> "High Seas Standalone Era" except that it's hard to understand what that means and it isn't really true
20100528 06:31:16< Elvish_Pillager> "Elvish Pillager's The High Seas"
20100528 06:31:37< Aethaeryn> Invasion from the Un
20100528 06:31:40< Aethaeryn> maybe the cap was raised in 1.8
20100528 06:31:44< Aethaeryn> but I know in 1.6 it cut off at that
20100528 06:33:10< Espreon> "Tide of High Seas"...
20100528 06:33:11< Elvish_Pillager> well, I didn't mean "what do I name the add-on" so much as "what do I name the era so that if you have both add-ons it's possible to tell which era you want"
20100528 06:33:54< Aethaeryn> Highest Seas
20100528 06:34:18< Elvish_Pillager> The Higher Seas
20100528 06:34:20< Aethaeryn> High Seas Era Improved
20100528 06:34:23< Elvish_Pillager> heh
20100528 06:34:35< Aethaeryn> Era HS X
20100528 06:34:42< Elvish_Pillager> The Better High Seas
20100528 06:34:48< Espreon> Awww, what's wrong with "Tide of High Seas"? It beeth gold!
20100528 06:38:10< Elvish_Pillager> okay, got everything working except removing Skirmisher
20100528 06:42:37< Elvish_Pillager> fixed!
20100528 06:42:44< Elvish_Pillager> Now to do boarding-a-ship-from-a-ship
20100528 06:55:12< Elvish_Pillager> Espreon: "High Seas: High Tide"? :p
20100528 06:56:02< Espreon> No, no, you don't get the pun.
20100528 06:56:12< Elvish_Pillager> yeah, I don't
20100528 06:56:43< Elvish_Pillager> what's the pun?
20100528 06:56:49< Espreon> http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/tide ... Definition three.
20100528 06:57:50< Elvish_Pillager> I still don't see a pun
20100528 06:57:53< Espreon> ... 'twas a replacement for "era".
20100528 06:57:58< Espreon> ... and seas... and tides...
20100528 06:58:07< Espreon> ... yeahz.
20100528 06:58:12< Elvish_Pillager> way too obscure
20100528 06:58:14< Elvish_Pillager> I mean
20100528 06:58:19< Elvish_Pillager> I guess it's pretty neat once you see it
20100528 06:58:36< Elvish_Pillager> but no one's going to see it
20100528 06:58:41< Espreon> I cannot believe that you didn't know about definition three.
20100528 06:58:49< Elvish_Pillager> I did know about it
20100528 06:58:55< Espreon> Oh.
20100528 06:58:56< Elvish_Pillager> but not so that I could think of it off the top of my head
20100528 06:59:19< Espreon> Well, sometimes, one has to think about things first before realizing something... yeahz...
20100528 06:59:25< Elvish_Pillager> and I didn't connect it with "era" since "era" doesn't mean what it's supposed to anyway
20100528 06:59:56< Elvish_Pillager> heck, "era" is worse than "lawful" and "chaotic"
20100528 07:00:54< Espreon> ... just take the gold.
20100528 07:01:04< Elvish_Pillager> what gold?
20100528 07:01:29< Espreon> ... the gold I bestowed unto thee.
20100528 07:01:41< Espreon> "Tide of High Seas".
20100528 07:01:52< Elvish_Pillager> How about "High Seas Betide"?
20100528 07:02:40< Espreon> Sure, hwy not?
20100528 07:02:54< Elvish_Pillager> because it's confusing
20100528 07:03:36< Espreon> Just use either of them.
20100528 07:03:40< Espreon> They're gold!
20100528 07:04:22< Elvish_Pillager> Aethaeryn: your opinion?
20100528 07:04:46< Aethaeryn> too tired
20100528 07:04:59< Elvish_Pillager> Oh dear, Aeth is too tide to make a decision
20100528 07:05:18< Elvish_Pillager> which leaves me all tide up about what th choose
20100528 07:05:28< Aethaeryn> High Seas 2.0
20100528 07:05:41< Elvish_Pillager> Hmm.
20100528 07:05:45< Aethaeryn> High Seas II
20100528 07:05:48< Elvish_Pillager> That's actually a good representation of what it is.
20100528 07:05:48< Aethaeryn> High Seas Arrrrrr
20100528 07:05:49< Elvish_Pillager> But
20100528 07:05:54< Aethaeryn> High Seas U R A Pirate
20100528 07:06:03< Elvish_Pillager> That would imply that the original was 1.0 quality :p
20100528 07:06:05< Aethaeryn> Pretty accurate, since you are a pirate in the game.
20100528 07:08:51< Elvish_Pillager> Alright, ship-to-ship boarding seems to be working fine
20100528 07:08:55< Elvish_Pillager> brb
20100528 07:09:55< Espreon> AI0867: http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?p=430822#p430822 ... Hmmmmm...
20100528 07:10:20< Elvish_Pillager> "High Seas: High Time (we made a version that works)"
20100528 07:10:42< Elvish_Pillager> bob the mighty made it, right? Is he still active?
20100528 07:21:15< Elvish_Pillager> Aethaeryn: here's one thing that I won't be able to replicate in an era. The AI monsters and pirates.
20100528 07:25:46< Aethaeryn> Elvish_Pillager: I was talking to Bob earlier today
20100528 07:25:48< Aethaeryn> on IRC
20100528 07:25:49< Aethaeryn> so yes
20100528 07:25:56< Elvish_Pillager> ah
20100528 07:25:59< Aethaeryn> if you had paid attention to get his blessing
20100528 07:26:08< Aethaeryn> :P
20100528 07:26:10< Aethaeryn> anyway
20100528 07:26:20< Aethaeryn> the AI would have to be placed by macros
20100528 07:26:58< Aethaeryn> in the map
20100528 07:27:00< Aethaeryn> not in the era
20100528 07:27:05< Aethaeryn> just provide the macros
20100528 07:27:08< Aethaeryn> or w/e
20100528 07:27:09< Elvish_Pillager> hmm
20100528 07:27:13< Aethaeryn> sleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep
20100528 07:30:54-!- Aethaeryn [~Michael@wesnoth/umc-dev/developer/aethaeryn] has quit [Quit: Have you seen the iPad Nano? It looks pretty awesome.]
20100528 07:33:32< Elvish_Pillager> Darn, can't have a ship with fifty cannons.
20100528 07:33:54< Elvish_Pillager> Or eight sails.
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20100528 08:35:50< Espreon> timotei: Let us talk here.
20100528 08:35:56< timotei> :))
20100528 08:36:12< timotei> no problem. the other channel isn't "populated" either way
20100528 08:36:15< Espreon> You can make dental fricatives, jeß?
20100528 08:36:16< timotei> populated/polluted
20100528 08:36:24< Espreon> Meh, don't wanna flood the logs; people actually read those.
20100528 08:36:32< timotei> Espreon: oh, yeah, rigth
20100528 08:36:34< Espreon> ... noöne cares about the logs from this channel.
20100528 08:36:38< Espreon> ... even me.
20100528 08:36:40< timotei> we should add a keywork for: [start spam]
20100528 08:36:43< timotei> [stop spam]
20100528 08:36:46< timotei> or better:
20100528 08:36:50< timotei> [stop loggin']
20100528 08:36:53< timotei> [end loggin]
20100528 08:36:54< Espreon> ... for now I just run irssi on mah shell account in teh Netherland.
20100528 08:36:55< timotei> :))
20100528 08:36:56< Espreon> *Netherlands
20100528 08:37:23< Espreon> timotei: But seriously, you can make dental fricatives, jeß?
20100528 08:37:58< timotei> yes, I can
20100528 08:38:35< Espreon> Good.
20100528 08:39:38< Espreon> timotei: How many trills can you make?
20100528 08:39:53< timotei> trills? let me google that
20100528 08:40:12< timotei> oh... don't know how many
20100528 08:40:31 * Espreon can make four.
20100528 08:41:12< Espreon> Alveolar, uvular, bilabial, and linguolabial (children love this trill ;) ).
20100528 08:41:23< timotei> oh good
20100528 08:42:09< timotei> oh god *
20100528 08:42:12< timotei> brb food
20100528 08:42:25 * Espreon wants to know how to make lateral trills, for being able to imitate bird calls is awesome.
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20100528 08:59:38< timotei> back
20100528 09:03:10< Espreon> Auguanevaré sobre sábado...
20100528 09:09:31< Espreon> timotei: How do you react to that statement?
20100528 09:09:43< Espreon> *Aguanevaré
20100528 09:09:50< timotei> Espreon: the last ..one?
20100528 09:09:57< Espreon> Uh, yeahz.
20100528 09:09:59< timotei> Don't know what language it is in (maybe spanish?)
20100528 09:10:07< Espreon> Yes.
20100528 09:10:27< timotei> google translate didn't translate
20100528 09:10:28< timotei> :(
20100528 09:11:01< Espreon> "I shall sleet on Saturday."
20100528 09:11:18< Espreon> When I say "sleet", I mean what douchebags call "wintry mix".
20100528 09:12:20< Espreon> Not making sense is fun, jeß?
20100528 09:13:54< Espreon> timotei: What do you think?
20100528 09:17:06 * Espreon wonders what happened to timotei 
20100528 09:19:19< timotei> forgot to mark me as afk
20100528 09:19:56< timotei> oh...yeah... it really doesn't make "so much" sense:P
20100528 09:20:57< Espreon> To the contrary, it makes total sense!
20100528 09:21:07 * Espreon just said that so that he could say "to the contrary"
20100528 09:21:45< timotei> :-)
20100528 09:23:50< timotei> bleah... I have an "education psihology" exam over 3 hours...
20100528 09:24:13< timotei> wait.. I didn't express myself corectly, is it?
20100528 09:24:40< Espreon> Uh...... no... not even with that.
20100528 09:24:54< timotei> what?
20100528 09:25:19< timotei> I want to mean: I have exam at 13.25. that's 3 hours between the current time and exam time.
20100528 09:25:25< timotei> over 3 hours is correctly?
20100528 09:25:38< Espreon> timotei: Unfortunately, since Modern English is a fail language that lost a lot of Germanic goodies and just a lot of Frenchie fail into it, we have to have blantant subjects and such.
20100528 09:25:53< Espreon> Uh, no; not even that sentence makes sense.
20100528 09:26:27< Espreon> Now, it depends where it occurrs.
20100528 09:27:45< Espreon> We'd just be more precise.
20100528 09:27:53< Espreon> ... with what you were saying.
20100528 09:28:04< Espreon> *blatant
20100528 09:28:08< timotei> oh. screw this :)). I'm not good at all at this
20100528 09:28:21< Espreon> Yeahz, I have much tiredness. So, I shall be going to sleep.
20100528 09:28:29< timotei> ok. good night
20100528 09:28:34< timotei> or better: good sleep:P
20100528 09:28:46< timotei> it's good to sleep even between "nights sleep"
20100528 09:28:53< timotei> that is, in the middle of the day
20100528 09:29:06 * Espreon loves using Spanish idiom in the fail that is Modern English.
20100528 09:29:20< Espreon> I would just be ironic and say "Good morning" or "Good day".
20100528 09:29:31< Espreon> OK, byez for realz.
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20100528 13:46:28< AI0867> interesting
20100528 13:46:31< AI0867> wonder which version it is
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20100528 20:05:06< Elvish_Pillager> Aethaeryn: progress is going along smoothly on THS. I have implemented my cool new ship-sinking rules.
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20100528 20:27:39< Elvish_Pillager> I totally want to put the Black Freighter in this. But 50 cannons is absurd.
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20100528 20:28:48< Elvish_Pillager> hang on, I take that back. It would just be really hard to fight against, but that's the point, right? The only obstacle is getting the AI to handle the cannoneers
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20100528 21:04:25< Aethaeryn> Elvish_Pillager: Sorry, I just found an ereader app on my phone... was occupied all morning.
20100528 21:09:20< Elvish_Pillager> no problem, I didn't need you for anything :p
20100528 21:09:29< Elvish_Pillager> right now I'm taking time off the real work to make the Black Freighter :p
20100528 21:13:30< Aethaeryn> Elvish_Pillager: Can AI ships be occupied?
20100528 21:13:33< Aethaeryn> I want them to be.
20100528 21:13:41< Elvish_Pillager> I haven't made AI ships yet.
20100528 21:13:47< Aethaeryn> If I have 30 lvl 1s and want to storm an AI ship...
20100528 21:13:52< Aethaeryn> And man it :P
20100528 21:14:03< Elvish_Pillager> commandeer it too? yeah
20100528 21:14:10< Aethaeryn> btw 
20100528 21:14:15< Aethaeryn> Bob The Mighty is on the server
20100528 21:14:17< Elvish_Pillager> A bit hard to make the AI able to handle that, right?
20100528 21:14:21< Aethaeryn> #wesnoth-mp-lobby-stable tells all
20100528 21:14:31< Aethaeryn> but he's also in #Wesnoth-dev 
20100528 21:14:56< Elvish_Pillager> hm
20100528 21:15:45< Aethaeryn> Elvish_Pillager: should there be no upkeep or would that make lvl 0s useless as crew?
20100528 21:16:06< Aethaeryn> I'm just thinking that there's a scarcity of villages compared to what the engine could actually handle...
20100528 21:16:06< Elvish_Pillager> Hah, L0s still cost only 6 gold
20100528 21:16:16< Aethaeryn> Maybe some kind of income-generation?
20100528 21:16:25< Aethaeryn> being able to plant an outpost with 8 villages?
20100528 21:16:26< Elvish_Pillager> I was thinking it might be more fair to remove upkeep
20100528 21:16:29< Elvish_Pillager> hmm
20100528 21:16:37< Aethaeryn> like, you can build an outpost with 8 villages...
20100528 21:16:43< Aethaeryn> it functions like a ship, but is immobile.
20100528 21:16:47< Elvish_Pillager> hmm!
20100528 21:16:50< Aethaeryn> and it provides a stationary point for other humans to capture.
20100528 21:16:59< Elvish_Pillager> or burn!
20100528 21:17:08< Aethaeryn> and the obvious application is both the income and healing that 8 villages will bring you
20100528 21:17:15< Aethaeryn> as well as the ability to hold strategic spots
20100528 21:17:35< Aethaeryn> I think outposts should be added regardless of if they're loyal or not.
20100528 21:17:43< Elvish_Pillager> Obvious catch: It wouldn't function like a ship because it wouldn't be a unit (because there's no unit with an image that looks like an outpost)
20100528 21:17:55< Aethaeryn> it would be a village, yes.
20100528 21:18:08< Aethaeryn> or image
20100528 21:18:12< Aethaeryn> probably image would be better
20100528 21:18:20< Aethaeryn> But it would function "like a ship" in that it would have its own part on the mini map, etc.
20100528 21:18:23< Elvish_Pillager> If you can walk on it
20100528 21:18:34< Elvish_Pillager> then I have to come up with whole separate entry/exit rules
20100528 21:18:52< Aethaeryn> if you don't mind requiring download...
20100528 21:18:57< Elvish_Pillager> meh
20100528 21:18:59< Aethaeryn> you could take the watchtower image from old SotBE
20100528 21:19:01< Aethaeryn> if it got removed...
20100528 21:19:04< Aethaeryn> Turn that into a unit.
20100528 21:19:28< Elvish_Pillager> Or any other image that I want to
20100528 21:19:32< Aethaeryn> I can just think of the strategy of planting outposts at ports and manning them with a few people to try to hold a city.
20100528 21:20:09< Elvish_Pillager> and you'd get a bonus for holding the whole city like in Conquest =)
20100528 21:20:17< Aethaeryn> nah
20100528 21:20:30< Aethaeryn> because parts of the city (like windmills) are non-village
20100528 21:20:32< Aethaeryn> parts are village.
20100528 21:20:37< Aethaeryn> would get too complicated imo
20100528 21:28:41-!- mode/#wesnoth-umc-dev [+o shadowmaster] by ChanServ
20100528 21:29:36<@shadowmaster> I HAVE MOAR RAM
20100528 21:30:03< Elvish_Pillager> and you're not AFK!
20100528 21:30:30-!- shadowmaster changed the topic of #wesnoth-umc-dev to: Shadowmaster is really happy because he has 4 GB of RAM | Wesnoth-UMC-Dev Project discussion and support channel | http://wesnoth-umc-dev.ai0867.net | Staff: AI0867, Espreon, shadowmaster | Project interface: http://tinyurl.com/umcdev | Forum thread: http://tinyurl.com/umcdev-thread | IRC logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org, http://irclogs.ai0867.net
20100528 21:30:35< Elvish_Pillager> did you, by any chance, see the suggestion of 13arrage's that I posted in here a few days ago? 13 seemed quite interested in you getting it
20100528 21:30:47<@shadowmaster> for what?
20100528 21:30:52< Elvish_Pillager> IftU backstory
20100528 21:31:11<@shadowmaster> the aragwaithi thing?
20100528 21:31:13<@shadowmaster> I don't care.
20100528 21:31:14< Elvish_Pillager> yeah
20100528 21:31:18< Elvish_Pillager> yeah, I didn't think so
20100528 21:31:34< Elvish_Pillager> now I can tell 13 to stop pestering me about if you've seen it :x
20100528 21:31:57-!- mode/#wesnoth-umc-dev [-o shadowmaster] by shadowmaster
20100528 21:31:59< Espreon> shadowmaster: Congratulations!
20100528 21:32:23< timotei> Espreon: shadowmaster: got married?
20100528 21:32:30< Aethaeryn> only 4 GB?
20100528 21:32:31< timotei> Espreon: or why conratulate him?:D
20100528 21:32:32< Espreon> No, he got moar RAM!
20100528 21:32:40< timotei> oh
20100528 21:32:42< Aethaeryn> My two-year-old-laptop-which-is-falling-apart has 4 GB
20100528 21:32:50< timotei> 4g is not tuu much:))
20100528 21:33:29 * Espreon only has 1GB.
20100528 21:33:31< shadowmaster> timotei: IT'S A LOT FOR ME
20100528 21:33:35< shadowmaster> I HAD ONLY 1.7 GB
20100528 21:33:41< timotei> oh nice shadowmaster:D
20100528 21:33:48< shadowmaster> NOW I HAVE 3.7 GB. JOIN THE CELEBRATIONS NOW OR YOU DIE
20100528 21:33:52< timotei> Espreon: thats enough for you no?
20100528 21:34:04< timotei> shadowmaster: what celebrations? I don't see any
20100528 21:34:05< Elvish_Pillager> yey, now you have as much as I do?
20100528 21:34:09 * Elvish_Pillager cheers
20100528 21:34:15< Aethaeryn> yeah, 4 GB is pretty much the baseline minimum for a decent experience in a 64-bit-OS world.
20100528 21:34:17< Espreon> timotei: Uh, it gets me through over nine thousand compilations through the day.
20100528 21:34:26< timotei> oh:))
20100528 21:34:46< Aethaeryn> Espreon just likes antiquity or w/e.
20100528 21:34:47< shadowmaster> http://shadowm.rewound.net/blog/?p=69
20100528 21:35:06< Aethaeryn> The ancient Egyptians were content with less than 1GB RAM, so Espreon is living in a comfortable world by comparrison...
20100528 21:35:25< timotei> shadowmaster: you have nvidia graphics card?
20100528 21:35:29< shadowmaster> ATI
20100528 21:35:42< timotei> ok:D
20100528 21:35:47< shadowmaster> the new laptop, which is for my father, has an NVIDIA graphics card though
20100528 21:36:29< shadowmaster> but I don't think it's one of the faulty chipsets
20100528 21:37:22< Espreon> Having ATI sucks...
20100528 21:37:33 * Espreon has it too...
20100528 21:37:40< shadowmaster> and I don't want to use proprietary drivers from anyone
20100528 21:37:58< shadowmaster> nouveau doesn't sound to have much support for newer chipsets atm
20100528 21:38:04< Espreon> Aethaeryn: No, I just don't want to rip it open to add moar.
20100528 21:39:16< shadowmaster> I got some person to do it for me
20100528 21:39:21< Espreon> And of course, noöne will care about 64-bit till 2037; in 2037, everyone will switch to 64-bit like crazy.
20100528 21:39:28< shadowmaster> I only bought the RAM module
20100528 21:39:41< Aethaeryn> http://sam.zoy.org/wtfpl/
20100528 21:39:42< shadowmaster> anyway it's not about 32-bit or 64-bit, it's about having enough RAM to compile fucking Wesnoth
20100528 21:39:49< Aethaeryn> Wesnoth add-ons should switch to that license.
20100528 21:39:59< shadowmaster> and running Windows XP In a VM without disturbing other appications running on the host
20100528 21:40:12< Espreon> shadowmaster: I know, I just wanted to say that.
20100528 21:40:13 * Aethaeryn runs XP with 1 GB ram in the VM...
20100528 21:40:14< timotei> ok guys. 
20100528 21:40:19< timotei> See you on 11.06:D
20100528 21:40:26< Aethaeryn> RAM is actually pretty uh... plentiful once you get 4 GB
20100528 21:40:32< timotei> have fun shadowmaster with your new RAM
20100528 21:40:37< Aethaeryn> the only reason I'd want 8 GB on my new laptop when I get it next summer is for virtualization.
20100528 21:40:38< shadowmaster> timotei: :D
20100528 21:40:47< Aethaeryn> The more RAM, the more virtualizes OSes I can run in parallel.
20100528 21:40:50< shadowmaster> Aethaeryn: you don't run KDE, an apache server, a mysql server, IRC server instances...
20100528 21:40:58-!- timotei [~timo@wesnoth/developer/timotei] has quit [Quit: See you on 11.06.2010]
20100528 21:41:05< Aethaeryn> no, I don't.
20100528 21:41:06< shadowmaster> Python applications such as wicd use a lot of RAM too
20100528 21:41:14< Aethaeryn> I'm saving up to get a desktop/laptop at the same time.
20100528 21:41:19 * Espreon runs KDE and an Apache server... when he actually needs it.
20100528 21:41:20< shadowmaster> oh, and Iceweasel
20100528 21:41:25< Aethaeryn> I don't want my desktop obsoleted when I get my laptop and vice versa.
20100528 21:41:41< Espreon> ... and Firefox is not a monstrosity on my system for some reason (AFAIK).
20100528 21:41:42< Aethaeryn> so probably next summer I can talk to you about server-running.
20100528 21:41:48< shadowmaster> Espreon: I need it most of the time and I'm too lazy to do sudo invoke-rc.d apache2 start manually
20100528 21:41:55< Aethaeryn> Since the only point for a desktop is to run an always-on computer...
20100528 21:42:05< Espreon> Meh, you children and your sudo.
20100528 21:42:05< Aethaeryn> And the only point of an always-on Linux computer is to have always-on server processes, like irssi.
20100528 21:42:15< Espreon> Sudo is fun when it is compiled with the offensive USEFLAG.
20100528 21:42:21< Aethaeryn> And don't tell me "screen irssi" isn't a server process. It's the most important server process.
20100528 21:42:32< Aethaeryn> Everything else is optional.
20100528 21:42:33< Espreon> ... that beeth the only advantage.
20100528 21:43:14< Espreon> And of course, I have "offensive" in my USEFLAGS variable in my make.conf.
20100528 21:43:49< Aethaeryn> Bah, compiled code.
20100528 21:44:03< Aethaeryn> Real programmers just rewrite the code in the particular machine language whenever they get a new computer.
20100528 21:44:39-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has quit [Quit: noy]
20100528 21:44:53< Espreon> ... and real programmers use butterfly wings to edit...
20100528 21:45:12< Aethaeryn> emacs can do that. ;)
20100528 21:45:41 * Espreon rolls his eyes
20100528 21:46:04< Espreon> I don't get the editor wars; it's as if noöne had anything good to do then.
20100528 21:46:23< Aethaeryn> The editor it is made in doesn't matter as long as it's good code.
20100528 21:46:28< Aethaeryn> Write it in Notepad if you want.
20100528 21:46:48< Aethaeryn> As long as you have a script to automatically clean up the mess of a file it makes ;)
20100528 21:47:01< shadowmaster> http://pastebin.com/rzbrNJpD
20100528 21:47:06< Espreon> Meh, Notepad should not be touched, for it hæts Unicode.
20100528 21:47:11< shadowmaster> processes sorted by memory usage
20100528 21:47:15< Espreon> Unicode or GTFO.
20100528 21:47:16< shadowmaster> (descending)
20100528 21:47:25< shadowmaster> Espreon: it does UTF-16
20100528 21:47:42< Aethaeryn> but yeah
20100528 21:47:48< Aethaeryn> write it in any Unicode editor you want.
20100528 21:48:01< Aethaeryn> Write a web app to code via Firefox if you want. :P
20100528 21:48:06< Aethaeryn> Google Emacs.
20100528 21:48:09< Espreon> shadowmaster: But, noöne cares about UTF-16.
20100528 21:48:19< Aethaeryn> now part of Google Docs
20100528 21:49:49< Aethaeryn> Gnoogle
20100528 21:50:07< Aethaeryn> Gnoogle Emacs
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20100528 21:56:02< Bob_The_Mighty> Elvish_Pillager: what's up?
20100528 21:56:06-!- Gambit [~Gambit@pa-67-234-73-7.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #wesnoth-umc-dev
20100528 21:56:21< Elvish_Pillager> I'm working on a mostly-rewritten High Seas era.
20100528 21:57:35< Elvish_Pillager> The thing I specifically want to ask you is this: We were arguing about what to name it the other day. I think that it make sense for you to have some control over the namespace (e.g. we shouldn't name it "The High Seas" if you think your add-on is the real High Seas)
20100528 21:57:43< Bob_The_Mighty> was it you that once showed me the thing where the map expanded to fit a mini-map?
20100528 21:57:46< Elvish_Pillager> yeah
20100528 21:58:01< Bob_The_Mighty> what were you gonna change?
20100528 21:58:01< Elvish_Pillager> this uses that, and a lot of other improvements (or at least things that I consider improvements)
20100528 21:58:39< Elvish_Pillager> well, since it's a rewrite, getting on and off ships works in a fundamentally different way, as does manning the weapons, etc
20100528 21:59:12< Elvish_Pillager> and there's a few things I'm not going to re-implement (like the trading; I never saw anyone use that)
20100528 21:59:12< Bob_The_Mighty> the code for all that is quite clunky
20100528 21:59:30< Elvish_Pillager> My code is much cleaner.
20100528 21:59:31< Bob_The_Mighty> trading? i thought that was the whole point, but nvm
20100528 22:00:03< Elvish_Pillager> No, the whole point was raiding places :)
20100528 22:00:25< Bob_The_Mighty> do you have a demo working?
20100528 22:00:40< Elvish_Pillager> hmm
20100528 22:01:20< Elvish_Pillager> I have a lot of stuff working but no real maps set up for it yet
20100528 22:02:30< Bob_The_Mighty> I'm interested to know the details of what you are keeping and what you are changing?
20100528 22:02:53< Bob_The_Mighty> I know Aetheryn was working on a high seas map, he might be able to alter it
20100528 22:03:06< Elvish_Pillager> Aethaeryn: you say you want, e.g. pirate ships to be raidable - do you want them to actually use the manning system (i.e. have pirate units at the cannons) or just have units sitting in the ship?
20100528 22:05:53< Aethaeryn> would be cool if AI ships had manning system
20100528 22:05:57< Aethaeryn> especially the man-o-wars
20100528 22:06:07< Aethaeryn> so there'd be a new tactic: board the AI otherwise-unstoppable ship
20100528 22:06:14< Aethaeryn> and try to take out a few of the cannon manners
20100528 22:06:16< Elvish_Pillager> The catch is that those units won't fight back much when you attack the ship.
20100528 22:06:54< Aethaeryn> obviously they would need a guard on the ship too
20100528 22:07:01< Aethaeryn> probably a really tough one
20100528 22:07:06< Elvish_Pillager> I could:
20100528 22:07:06< Aethaeryn> as tough as Gaol since it's a tough ship
20100528 22:07:21< Elvish_Pillager> make the manners mostly L0 or L1, depending on how strong the ship is supposed to be
20100528 22:07:39< Bob_The_Mighty> that sounds neat
20100528 22:07:47< Elvish_Pillager> and make a force of L1-3 guards that's stronger than the total of the manners, so that you don't worry about the fact that they're not in the fight
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20100528 22:09:22< Bob_The_Mighty> surely the manners would fight back if you were adjacent?
20100528 22:09:42< Elvish_Pillager> Manners have no moves or attacks in my version.
20100528 22:09:53< Bob_The_Mighty> ok
20100528 22:10:24< Aethaeryn> so...
20100528 22:10:31< Aethaeryn> Perhaps have trolls man the bad guy ships.
20100528 22:10:34< Elvish_Pillager> Ha ha.
20100528 22:10:35< Aethaeryn> So they regenerate and have tons of HP :P
20100528 22:10:50< Elvish_Pillager> "Man Of Troll" attacks with fire!
20100528 22:11:00< Aethaeryn> Troll shamans :P
20100528 22:11:04< Aethaeryn> They don't need cannons :P
20100528 22:11:18< Elvish_Pillager> Hmm.
20100528 22:11:37< Elvish_Pillager> If I gave them healers, would they heal their wounded units after they were (unsuccessfully) attacked?
20100528 22:11:46< Elvish_Pillager> Well, I guess we'll see
20100528 22:20:19< Aethaeryn> hmmm
20100528 22:20:23< Aethaeryn> Elvish_Pillager: just tell me when you have something ready
20100528 22:20:30< Elvish_Pillager> yeah
20100528 22:20:32< Aethaeryn> so I can port up Wesalwyn.
20100528 22:33:13 * Espreon wonders why he is becoming obsessed with megabats.
20100528 22:48:29< Elvish_Pillager> Hmm. I'm afraid that serious boarding operations are going to be kind of crazy, given the small sizes of the ships.
20100528 22:51:25< Aethaeryn> Espreon: Is your Internet 10 megabats a second? 
20100528 22:51:54< Espreon> ... uh... fifteen, actually.
20100528 22:51:55< Espreon> LOL.
20100528 22:52:05< Espreon> ... and five megabats up.
20100528 22:52:35< Espreon> But seriously, megabats (especially flying foxes) are awesome.
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--- Log closed Sat May 29 00:00:04 2010