--- Log opened Fri Jun 11 00:00:15 2010
20100611 00:01:32< billynux> true... but... I would be comfortable with interesting private projects too (I actually would prefer them to boring free soft. stuff)
20100611 00:02:04< billynux> of course boring is luckily a subjective matter... and some people like to debug I guess, just not me
20100611 00:02:31< mordante> debugging can be prevented by not adding the bugs ;-P
20100611 00:03:56< mordante> well IMO the most important thing in a job is that it's fun (at least most of the time) and enables you to pay the rent
20100611 00:04:08< billynux> true... but, do you know anybody that doesn't make mistakes? :)
20100611 00:04:43< mordante> mr. Perfect? ;-)
20100611 00:04:55< mordante> but yeah debugging is part of software development
20100611 00:05:22< mordante> can be fun, but often indeed boring
20100611 00:05:25< billynux> yes... just some people do that for a living (debugging only)... and I wouldn't
20100611 00:06:54< mordante> yup but I guess those people can also disassemble machine code
20100611 00:07:12< mordante> I really need a debugger for that
20100611 00:09:11< billynux> they do... my thesis adviser worked on gcc, the gnu toolchain, a lot of it involved looking at ASM code
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20100611 00:12:27< mordante> yup, well I look at assembler output regularly but can only decode 0x90 (the NOP (padding) instruction) without the disassembler
20100611 00:13:14< billynux> I can't... and really don't wish to, the higher up I work, the better I feel
20100611 00:14:23< billynux> my Computing Analyst (3yrs) thesis was a dynamics engine in ... Ruby!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4G73WFCdEfY
20100611 00:14:26< mordante> it's sometimes needed to see what the compiler does (and how smart it acts)
20100611 00:15:08< mordante> most of the time it confirms; write code readable and let the compiler do the optimization
20100611 00:15:21< billynux> I would love to rewrite that app in C++ using ODE (www.ode.org)... and make it a full fledged physics tutor (for high schools and first year univ. students)
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20100611 00:18:01< boucman> hey all
20100611 00:18:05< billynux> hi boucman
20100611 00:18:06< mordante> hi boucman 
20100611 00:18:17< mordante> looks interesting billynux 
20100611 00:18:26< boucman> gabba: I love your new arrow drawings :P
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20100611 00:18:45< gabba> Hey thanks boucman :)
20100611 00:19:09< gabba> It's good to see things taking shape isn't it
20100611 00:19:16< mordante> I'm off now, night
20100611 00:19:17< billynux> it is...
20100611 00:19:21< billynux> g'night mordante 
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20100611 00:19:38< boucman> indeed :)
20100611 00:19:57< boucman> i'll have some time to do some more in-depth code looking tomorow, in particular try to study the input layer
20100611 00:20:28< gabba> boucman: good, it's the area where I need the most help to do things cleanly
20100611 00:20:58< gabba> btw for arrows I went for the full-hex solution after all, my code for arrows assumed it worked that way
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20100611 00:22:26< boucman> ok, that's the most logical I guess...
20100611 00:22:38< gabba> doing all the little hex graphics one by one was a bitch, and the result isn't so great :P
20100611 00:22:51< gabba> I eagerly await the day an artist comes to the rescue
20100611 00:23:59< gabba> (even though I wasn't shooting for a great result in the first place...)
20100611 00:24:14< eleazar_> hi gabba, talking about those arrows?
20100611 00:24:20< gabba> eleazar_: yup
20100611 00:24:46< eleazar_> i just saw the commit, and wondered what they were for...
20100611 00:24:58< eleazar_> and if an artist was needed to spruce them up
20100611 00:25:44< gabba> eleazar_: they're for my GSoC Whiteboard project (but Crab_ has secret plans involving them too)
20100611 00:26:07< eleazar_> whiteboard?
20100611 00:26:22< boucman> eleazar_: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/GSoC-WesnothWhiteboard_Gabba
20100611 00:26:31< gabba> eleazar_: and yeah, artists are welcome, but they'd have to be aware they're investing time in the very early phase of a project
20100611 00:26:32< boucman> eleazar_: great to see you , btw :)
20100611 00:26:54< eleazar_> boucman: :)
20100611 00:27:40< boucman> eleazar_: I have to go to bed soon, is there a chance that we can discuss terrains in the following days ?
20100611 00:27:41< eleazar_> * viewing proposal....
20100611 00:27:59< eleazar_> boucman: sure
20100611 00:28:14< eleazar_> i don't usually leave IRC on becuase it's too distracting
20100611 00:28:24< eleazar_> but we can schedual something
20100611 00:28:31< boucman> cool, when will you be on IRC ?
20100611 00:28:48< eleazar_> you are in france, right?
20100611 00:28:56< boucman> yes, you ?
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20100611 00:29:06< eleazar_> central usa
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20100611 00:29:24< eleazar_> 7 hours different
20100611 00:29:44< gabba> btw if you want to see the arrows in action, use :debug and then :whiteboard (or :wb) on a trunk build of wesnoth, and try moving some units
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20100611 00:30:38< boucman> eleazar_: tomorow, 15h30 NY time ?
20100611 00:30:44< eleazar_> gabba: i haven't figured out how to compile again.
20100611 00:30:50< boucman> (that's the only US tz I know by heart)
20100611 00:31:38< eleazar_> let me go upstairs and check my callendar...
20100611 00:31:49< CIA-86> shadowmaster * r43264 /trunk/src/addon/manager.cpp: Add __MACOSX directories to default ignore patterns
20100611 00:31:53< shadowmaster> Espreon: ^
20100611 00:32:19< gabba> eleazar_: if it's under ubuntu or debian it's rather easy, otherwise...
20100611 00:33:00< shadowmaster> otherwise I believe loonycyborg makes svn buuilds of the main executable
20100611 00:33:06< shadowmaster> for Windows
20100611 00:33:37< Espreon> shadowmaster: Excellent.
20100611 00:33:45< eleazar_> boucman: OK, that works for me
20100611 00:33:57< billynux> I'm off people, see you tomorrow
20100611 00:33:57< boucman> cool, see you tomorow
20100611 00:34:16< eleazar_> boucman: good night
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20100611 00:35:08< loonycyborg> eleazar_: If you're still using Mac ask crimson_penguin
20100611 00:35:38< CIA-86> shadowmaster * r43265 /branches/1.8/src/addon_management.cpp: 
20100611 00:35:39< CIA-86> Add __MACOSX directories to default ignore patterns
20100611 00:35:40< CIA-86> (Manually backported from trunk, r43264.)
20100611 00:36:38< crimson_penguin> what __MACOSX directories?
20100611 00:37:05< shadowmaster> http://floatingsun.net/2007/02/07/whats-with-__macosx-in-zip-files/
20100611 00:37:19< crimson_penguin> oh, those
20100611 00:37:23< shadowmaster> we already discussed it to death in the wesnoth-umc-dev admin channel
20100611 00:37:27< crimson_penguin> but what would that have to do with svn?
20100611 00:37:44< shadowmaster> what do my commits have to do with svn anyway?
20100611 00:37:59< shadowmaster> these are code commits, not svn property commits
20100611 00:39:16< crimson_penguin> ohhh
20100611 00:39:19< crimson_penguin> ok, sorry
20100611 00:39:21< Espreon> crimson_penguin: Essentially, we don't want filthy cruft on the addons server.
20100611 00:39:29< crimson_penguin> yeah, makes sense
20100611 00:39:45< shadowmaster> from what I read it's no better than that Thumbs.db crap
20100611 00:40:13< crimson_penguin> yeah, I rather dislike that stuff
20100611 00:54:00< AI0867> well, it's actually *intended* to be in the zipfile
20100611 00:54:07< AI0867> not that that helps matters
20100611 00:54:57< Espreon> ... and the Thumbs.db files are intended to be wherever images are.
20100611 01:03:11 * Espreon kicks CIA-86 
20100611 01:03:39< Gambit> Thumbs.db's should not copy when you copy folders (imo). That's their problem.
20100611 01:03:58< Gambit> They spread around even though AFAIK they only matter to the system they were created on.
20100611 01:04:04< CIA-86> ow
20100611 01:04:20< Espreon> Heh, delayed response.
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20100611 01:09:20< Espreon> Oh wow...
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20100611 02:01:27< eleazar_> gabba: looks interesting.  Where's a good place to leave comments on some of the visual aspects of the whiteboard?
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20100611 02:02:33< gabba> eleazar_: you could tell me right now, or else I can dig up my feedback thread on the forum (haven't had time to answer posts these times around, though)
20100611 02:03:06< eleazar_> i want to think a few things over more
20100611 02:03:20< eleazar_> i can find your thread-- now that i know to look for it
20100611 02:03:38< gabba> eleazar_: it's in the ideas section, it kind of changed vocation over time :P
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20100611 02:07:54< gabba> eleazar_: one thing I haven't added to the wiki page, is that I intend to add back/forward replay-like controls with which you can hide recent moves and look at older ones in the same context you defined them
20100611 02:08:40< eleazar_> recent? as in past moves?
20100611 02:09:39< gabba> eleazar_: the player will have for example a list of moves defined (say, 10 arrows on the map, numbered 1-10):
20100611 02:10:06< gabba> at this point it could be a bit cluttered, so he can hit "back" three times to hide moves 8, 9, and 10
20100611 02:10:31< gabba> at this point it's just planning stuff, the units have not moved yet
20100611 02:10:39< eleazar_> gotcha
20100611 02:11:00< eleazar_> there's definitely the potential for confusion
20100611 02:13:12< eleazar_> signing off...
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20100611 03:59:01-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: 124 bugs, 281 feature requests, 15 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
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20100611 05:35:28< CIA-86> eleazar * r43272 /trunk/data/core/images/terrain/darken-linger.png: fixed glitchy edge on end of scenario screen effect.
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20100611 06:33:50< CIA-86> espreon * r43273 /trunk/ (14 files in 4 dirs): Converted the quotes and apostrophes in Liberty to their curly forms (double form for quotation marks).
20100611 06:34:03< Espreon> ... and it begins.
20100611 06:39:36< CIA-86> espreon * r43274 /trunk/data/core/images/terrain/darken-linger.png: 
20100611 06:39:36< CIA-86> Ran wesnoth-optipng:
20100611 06:39:36< CIA-86> Overall statistics (only for files with a smaller recompressed size):
20100611 06:39:36< CIA-86> Original size: 3 KiB on 1 files
20100611 06:39:36< CIA-86> Optimized size: 0 KiB
20100611 06:39:37< CIA-86> Total saving: 2 KiB = 78% decrease
20100611 06:45:36< CIA-86> espreon * r43275 /trunk/utils/pofix.py: Temporarily commented out two conversions.
20100611 06:56:10< CIA-86> espreon * r43276 /trunk/ (data/hardwired/tips.cfg utils/pofix.py): Reworked some strings to be less awkward; fixed screw ups within those strings (which were using em dashes instead of horizontal bars).
20100611 07:01:09< CIA-86> espreon * r43277 /trunk/ (data/hardwired/tips.cfg utils/pofix.py): Fixed a screw up in which em dashes were being used instead of horizontal bars.
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20100611 09:19:34< Espreon> ... and I can't connect the 1.8 addons server; couldn't connect to host.
20100611 09:21:48< Espreon> Rhonda, Soliton, whomever: ^
20100611 09:21:58 * Espreon disappears...
20100611 09:35:44< shadowmaster> the 1.8 campaignd seems to be stuck for some reason
20100611 09:35:50< shadowmaster> eating over100% CPU
20100611 09:36:26 * shadowmaster goes to bed too
20100611 09:43:09< Soliton> Rhonda, Espreon: should work again.
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20100611 09:57:09< Ivanovic> moin
20100611 10:01:24< Rhonda> Espreon: I do have root access to the server, though I have no clue how the servers are started. ;)
20100611 10:05:03< Ivanovic> Rhonda: some magic screen sessions that the user 'wesnoth' has
20100611 10:05:26< Ivanovic> just check his screen sessions, attach the campaind one, kill and restart the respective server
20100611 10:07:47< Soliton> just a kill is usually enough actually.
20100611 10:07:55< Soliton> the run script restarts it.
20100611 10:08:14< Soliton> a quick look in the log file for the cause is a good idea though.
20100611 10:09:03< Soliton> nothing new in this case.. someone needs to rewrite campaignd/our network core.
20100611 10:09:22< Rhonda> Ah, good to know about the run wrapper, thanks. :)
20100611 10:09:57< Ivanovic> Soliton: billynux has a GSoC project that does rewrite the network stack
20100611 10:10:26< Ivanovic> and ilor has/had some uni project where they rewrote the addon server
20100611 10:11:29< Soliton> i'm well aware. :-)
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20100611 10:53:00< timotei> hellloo!:D
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20100611 13:16:19< CIA-86> ivanovic * r43278 /trunk/ (changelog players_changelog po/wesnoth/vi.po): updated Vietnamese translation
20100611 13:16:21< CIA-86> ivanovic * r43279 /branches/1.8/ (changelog players_changelog po/wesnoth/vi.po): updated Vietnamese translation
20100611 13:18:45< Ivanovic> okay, running the updated pofix version from Espreon on trunk (would have been nice to get a ping from him that it is required...)
20100611 13:18:59< Ivanovic> since yeah, either he has to run it himself on all po files or he as to at least ping me
20100611 13:19:20< Ivanovic> the po files musn't be out of sync with pofix or an translation update will introduce a real mess!
20100611 13:21:12< timotei> hello fendrin
20100611 13:21:12< Ivanovic> fendrin: is this one a duplicate and/or already fixed? https://gna.org/bugs/index.php?16140
20100611 13:22:00< fendrin> Ivanovic: duplicate
20100611 13:22:02< Ivanovic> zookeeper: can you handle this one? https://gna.org/bugs/index.php?16141
20100611 13:22:16< Ivanovic> zookeeper: the first thing is probably something like "please attach a testcase" or the likes...
20100611 13:22:22< Ivanovic> fendrin: will you handle it?
20100611 13:22:30< fendrin> Ivanovic: yes
20100611 13:23:09< Ivanovic> thanks
20100611 13:32:15< zookeeper> Ivanovic, well, it's not a WML-side problem
20100611 13:32:29< Ivanovic> okay, then no idea who should handle it...
20100611 13:32:31< zookeeper> it's probably more for sapient
20100611 13:33:00< Ivanovic> zookeeper: anyway, feel free to comment in it and assign it accordingly
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20100611 13:34:56< Ivanovic> Espreon: and you should be more carefull with your changes
20100611 13:35:16< Ivanovic> i am currently applying pofix.py and got to edit several wml files to add the same replacements you did for liberty in those
20100611 13:35:36< Ivanovic> so far i had to alter DM, HTTT, NR and TROW
20100611 13:43:11< Espreon> Ivanovic: Are you referring to my conversion involving "Queen's"?
20100611 13:43:18< Ivanovic> yes
20100611 13:43:37< Ivanovic> still running pofix
20100611 13:43:49< Espreon> That was intentional, as... that would occur in many places... and... yeahz.
20100611 13:45:06< Ivanovic> and you should have applied it in the config files in all places, too!
20100611 13:46:22< Ivanovic> the problem is that if you change pofix you directly have to apply it
20100611 13:46:34< Espreon> I see.
20100611 13:46:38< Ivanovic> since i got to update my repository before commiting and thus will also update pofix
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20100611 13:46:53< Ivanovic> and pofix is applied against all pofiles before the files are merged against the latest .pot
20100611 13:47:23< Ivanovic> so perfectly valid strings would become fuzzy because the replacement was not done in the .pot file yet
20100611 13:47:48< Espreon> So, you wouldn't mind if I were to run pofix on everything and perform a pot-update myself?
20100611 13:48:16< Espreon> (When I introduce new conversions)
20100611 13:48:31< Espreon> ... et cætera...
20100611 13:49:34< CIA-86> ivanovic * r43280 /trunk/data/campaigns/ (8 files in 5 dirs): 
20100611 13:49:34< CIA-86> some additional conversions that are required to keep the files in sync with utils/pofix.py:
20100611 13:49:34< CIA-86> "Queen's", "Queen?\226?\128?\153s"
20100611 13:49:34< CIA-86> "I don't understand.", "I don?\226?\128?\153t understand."
20100611 13:49:34< CIA-86> "It's done.", "It?\226?\128?\153s done."
20100611 13:49:35< CIA-86> applying pofix.py on all po/pot files will follow
20100611 13:50:17< Espreon> If only commit messages were in UTF-8...
20100611 13:50:17< Ivanovic> no need for you to perform the pot-update
20100611 13:50:22< Espreon> OK.
20100611 13:50:51< Ivanovic> you just need to run utils/pofix.py on po/wesnoth*/*.po po/wesnoth*/*.pot
20100611 13:51:54< CIA-86> ivanovic * r43281 /trunk/po/ (371 files in 7 dirs): applied utils/pofix.py on all po/pot files, pot-update will follow soon
20100611 13:52:13< CIA-86> timotei * r43282 /trunk/utils/java/eclipse_plugin/README.tex: eclipse plugin: documentation refactor
20100611 13:52:15< Ivanovic> Espreon: from inside po/ i normally use this command: for i in wesnoth*; do cd $i; ../../utils/pofix.py *.po $i.pot; cd ..; done
20100611 13:52:26< Ivanovic> reason: it does give some nice "per textdomain" output
20100611 13:53:05< CIA-86> timotei * r43283 /trunk/utils/java/eclipse_plugin/README.tex: eclipse plugin: refactor documentation
20100611 13:53:11< Espreon> Ivanovic: Thanks.
20100611 13:57:56< CIA-86> ivanovic * r43284 /trunk/ (617 files in 25 dirs): 
20100611 13:57:56< CIA-86> pot-update
20100611 13:57:56< CIA-86> regenerated doc files
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20100611 14:26:24< timotei> zookeeper: hey
20100611 14:27:14< timotei> does anybody know if the file "data/schema.cfg" is a valid/up-to-date schema for the WML language?
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20100611 14:28:00< timotei> zookeeper, AI0867, Espreon, fendrin: ^
20100611 14:28:10< boucman> hey all
20100611 14:28:18< timotei> hey boucman
20100611 14:28:59< AI0867> timotei: it's not
20100611 14:29:17< AI0867> that is, it's reasonably up-to-date for things that have been defined
20100611 14:29:20< AI0867> but parts haven't
20100611 14:29:29< AI0867> because I haven't finished designing the syntax yet
20100611 14:29:44< timotei> I need a efficient way to know what "keywords" can be used in WML
20100611 14:29:47< timotei> for the eclipse editor
20100611 14:30:51< timotei> AI0867: do you have any idea on how to achieve that?
20100611 14:31:48< AI0867> the emacs mode has everything hardcoded in...
20100611 14:32:10< AI0867> well, I can stub out everything else, but it wouldn't work in the validator
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20100611 14:33:06< timotei21> AI0867: I need somehow, just a list of valid keywords/tags
20100611 14:33:20< timotei21> I'll try take a look in the emacs mode
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20100611 14:36:15< timotei21> AI0867: http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=13798&hilit=emacs 
20100611 14:36:26< timotei21> AI0867: that one?
20100611 14:36:38< timotei21> AI0867: it seems outdated. the last change was in 2009
20100611 14:36:43< timotei21> february
20100611 14:44:42< Ivanovic> esr: what is the prose status of the kalifa?
20100611 14:44:52< Ivanovic> esr: IIRC the name stuff was not clear yet
20100611 14:44:57< Ivanovic> any progress there?
20100611 14:45:22< Ivanovic> if we aim for integration in 1.9.0 it might make sense to find a solution rather soon so that we don't have to switch names around all the time
20100611 14:47:12< fendrin> timotei21: I planned with mordante to extract schema.cfg from c++ comments that follow a automated processable syntax. 
20100611 14:47:50< fendrin> timotei21: There is already something like that in place for mordante's gui wml.
20100611 14:49:41< AI0867> timotei21: probably, but it's in /data/tools/emacs_mode
20100611 14:49:54< timotei21> AI0867: yeah, found that. thanks
20100611 14:50:29< AI0867> fendrin: the problem of where to put them remains. ActionWML is obvious. Others, not so much
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20100611 14:52:00< fendrin> AI0867: Right, I would like to have separate files for every type like ActionWML.
20100611 14:52:09< AI0867> Gui2WML is obvious also, which is why I haven't continued writing schema-gui.cfg
20100611 14:53:27< AI0867> I should have a good amount of free time starting tomorrow, so we can start/continue working on it then
20100611 14:55:08< fendrin> AI0867: Do you like the approach generating them form c++ comments?
20100611 14:58:38< timotei21> fendrin: oh, well, those are the "wiki things, right"
20100611 14:58:56< timotei21> fendrin: does it intend to use those?
20100611 15:00:19< fendrin> timotei21: both, the wiki and the schama.cfg should be generated from the c++ comments. maybe it's going c++ comments -->shema.cfg --> wiki text.
20100611 15:00:58< timotei21> fendrin: so it isn't already set up...
20100611 15:01:22< timotei21> fendrin: what do you want to starti working on next on the plugin? 
20100611 15:01:43< timotei21> Today I'll have some time, maybe tomorrow too.
20100611 15:02:06< timotei21> the next things in the proposal document was this: 
20100611 15:02:07< timotei21> WML syntax highlighting
20100611 15:02:08< timotei21> Highlighting start/end tags. 
20100611 15:03:13< fendrin> timotei21: Why not doing this? The syntax of shema.cfg is more or less final, depending on what AI0867 thinks. You can already implement that without having a the full schema for every possible wml.
20100611 15:03:29< timotei21> fendrin: yes.
20100611 15:03:48< timotei21> AI0867: is the schema.cfg format final?
20100611 15:04:02< timotei21> AI0867: or without big future changes?
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20100611 15:08:56< AI0867> 14:29 < AI0867> that is, it's reasonably up-to-date for things that have been defined
20100611 15:08:59< AI0867> 14:29 < AI0867> but parts haven't
20100611 15:09:02< AI0867> 14:29 < AI0867> because I haven't finished designing the syntax yet
20100611 15:09:06< AI0867> there will be stuff added
20100611 15:09:17< AI0867> but the simple tags that exist now will probably remain
20100611 15:09:23< timotei21> oky
20100611 15:10:42< timotei21> do you have some time to exaplin me some things related to the file?
20100611 15:12:42< AI0867> yeah
20100611 15:12:58< timotei21> identifier="re ^[a-zA-Z0-9_ ]+$" 
20100611 15:13:09< timotei21> it means after "re" it comes a regular expression?
20100611 15:13:13< AI0867> yes
20100611 15:13:33< timotei21> [about-campaign:about] what about this. the double collon, what it means?
20100611 15:13:39< AI0867> inheritance
20100611 15:13:44< timotei21> ok
20100611 15:14:16< timotei21> what's the difference between: title and _title ?
20100611 15:14:25< timotei21> when used as tag attributes
20100611 15:14:28< AI0867> title is a key, _title is a tag
20100611 15:14:33< timotei21> ok
20100611 15:15:28< AI0867> this reminds me that I need a word for "repeated, but at least one"
20100611 15:15:55< AI0867> required = 1, optional = 0|1, repeated = any amount
20100611 15:17:28< AI0867> I could change the meaning of repeated and use 'any' for its current meaning...
20100611 15:17:52< AI0867> but I kind-of inherited these from frogatto's schema
20100611 15:18:13< timotei21> it's ok this way too
20100611 15:18:53< timotei21> so, _about is the [about] tag. the tag is used only in the schema file? or it should be present into the wml too?
20100611 15:18:59< timotei21>     [about]
20100611 15:19:00< timotei21>         [description]
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20100611 15:28:27< AI0867> timotei21: ?
20100611 15:29:15< AI0867> _about="required about" means that there can/should be an [about] tag here, which is defined by the [about] tag in the schema
20100611 15:29:43< AI0867> s/can\/should/should
20100611 15:30:02< AI0867> _about="optional about-campaign" would mean that there can be 0 or 1 [about] tags here, which are defined by the [about-campaign] tag in the schema
20100611 15:34:05< timotei21> ok
20100611 15:37:15 * Soliton . o O (we can't have _keys?)
20100611 15:39:11< boucman> i'm pretty sure we can in the cfg struct... maybe the parser filters them out...
20100611 15:40:32< AI0867> Soliton: the old python wmlparser can, and though I haven't tested, I'm pretty sure the C++ preprocessor can too
20100611 15:40:39< AI0867> I mean, it accepts spaces...
20100611 15:40:47< AI0867> oh, misread
20100611 15:41:24< AI0867> and no, with the current schema format, keys starting with an underscore can't be specified
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20100611 15:47:15< timotei21> regarding the [about] [description] example. what's the  tag [description] appereance number(required/optional/repeated)? I can't see anywhere
20100611 15:48:52< timotei21> I mean, the tag [description] is required/optional/repetead?
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20100611 15:55:30< Soliton> AI0867: right, that was my point. ;-)
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20100611 16:20:37< AI0867> timotei21: er, that's an attempt at documentation-metadata
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20100611 16:23:27< timotei21> AI0867: so.. is not directly related to the target WML? is only something ... regarding the schema?
20100611 16:23:39< AI0867> it's info about the tag
20100611 16:23:49< AI0867> you might want to display it as a tooltip or something
20100611 16:24:09< timotei21> oh
20100611 16:24:11< timotei21> ok
20100611 16:24:32< AI0867> once I finalize the syntax, I should write a schema-schema
20100611 16:24:59< timotei21> ok:)
20100611 16:25:28< AI0867> it will validate all schemas, including itself
20100611 16:25:41< AI0867> meta ftw
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20100611 16:34:58< timotei21> gah... why use cvs and not svn or git?X(
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20100611 16:59:11< AI0867> refusal to upgrade? the fact that cvs is slightly faster than svn on the serverside?
20100611 16:59:38< AI0867> (and on the client side, if network latency is zero ;)
20100611 17:34:22< CIA-86> boucman * r43285 /trunk/src/ (CMakeLists.txt tools/exploder_utils.cpp): fix compil with libpng1.4 patch by abcd
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20100611 17:52:37< CIA-86> boucman * r43286 /trunk/data/core/terrain-graphics/ (compat.cfg transitions_overlay.cfg): move all of transition_overlay to compat since it's entirely unused in mainline
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20100611 18:12:24< CIA-86> boucman * r43287 /trunk/data/core/terrain-graphics/adjacent.cfg: move all adjacent.cfg to compat, it's entirely unused in mainline
20100611 18:22:51< zookeeper> boucman, well, now would be a good time to purge old macros...
20100611 18:23:08< boucman> you mean instead of moving them to compat ?
20100611 18:24:00< zookeeper> yeah
20100611 18:24:46< boucman> mkay... I was a bit afraid of breaking UMC, but you're right... it might be the right time to do that
20100611 18:25:10< zookeeper> yeah, definitely better to break compatibility before the first 1.9.x release than after, IMO
20100611 18:25:36< boucman> ok, i'll do that right away, then
20100611 18:27:12< CIA-86> boucman * r43288 /trunk/ (changelog data/core/terrain-graphics/compat.cfg): removing compat.cfg instead of moving deprecated macros there
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20100611 19:54:22< CIA-86> thespaceinvader * r43289 /trunk/ (7 files in 5 dirs): Add and wire new portrait for Draug and one alternate, both by Valkier. Update changelogs, portrait credits.
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20100611 20:11:07< kevg> hello
20100611 20:13:00< boucman> hey kevg
20100611 20:14:08-!- Crab_ [~Crab_@wesnoth/developer/crab] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100611 20:22:06< boucman> hey Crab_
20100611 20:22:12< Crab_> hi, boucman
20100611 20:22:13< boucman> how's the arrow+AI stuff going ?
20100611 20:22:41< Crab_> was thinking about it, so far. will take a closer look tomorrow
20100611 20:23:03< Crab_> maybe even commit a prototype, if it all turns out good
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20100611 20:52:52< gabba> bonjour
20100611 20:53:06< Crab_> hello, gabba
20100611 20:53:33< gabba> hey Crab_, didn't see you around much these last days
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20100611 20:55:11< gabba> hi boucman
20100611 20:55:16< boucman> hey gabba
20100611 20:55:51< boucman> I was looking at your code... (input integration mainly
20100611 20:55:59< boucman> and yes, it is confusing :P
20100611 20:56:10< gabba> boucman: isn't it :-/
20100611 20:56:53< gabba> I hate large nested if/else structures, but I'm not sure if it's easily avoidable in input code
20100611 20:57:03< boucman> yes, i've been thinking about how to integrate
20100611 20:58:03< boucman> your way of drawing an arrow when the mouse is cool (and necessary) but do we need to link it to the manager ?
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20100611 20:58:38< boucman> could we simply use the arrow code instead of the footstep code, simply changing the image we use depending if wb is activated or not ?
20100611 20:58:40< gabba> boucman: btw I didn't code yesterday since I kind of worked overtime these last days, I was a bit spent. I did play around with git though, and learned a few things.
20100611 20:58:50< boucman> and only plug the real wb code when the user clicks somewhere
20100611 20:58:59< boucman> ok
20100611 21:00:04< gabba> boucman: ^interesting thoughts...
20100611 21:01:10< boucman> the problem is that we would need to keep the unit_map modified as the "normal" one, and only unstack before executing the moves
20100611 21:01:27< gabba> boucman: with this approach, would you still manage to reuse the arrow for each subsequent drawing, instead of creating a new one everytime the mouse moves?
20100611 21:02:23< boucman> gabba: well, there would be a single arrow for footsteps (i'll use footsteps to designate both footsteps when not using wb and the moving arrow when using it)
20100611 21:03:17< boucman> you'll have to store the arrow* somewhere near the footstep management code, but it's probably doable... for instance you could store it instead of the footstep path, wherever that's saved (probably in display)
20100611 21:04:09< gabba> With footsteps, the initial problem I see is that they use half-images and compose them. To make footsteps "be" arrows, we'd need to make a bunch of tiny images :P
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20100611 21:05:13< boucman> that's like... ~1/2hour of gimping... we would need all the images from arrows, and some of them would be copies of each other, no big deal
20100611 21:06:17< gabba> it's a dreary, mindless job, but I agree it's pretty straightforward to do if we wanna go that way
20100611 21:06:26< eleazar_> boucman: i'm here whenever you are ready
20100611 21:06:33< boucman> hey eleazar_
20100611 21:07:05< boucman> well, we can start discussing right away, it might be a bit confusing since I discuss with gabba at the same time, but let's try it...
20100611 21:07:25< eleazar_> you can finish with gabba first if you want
20100611 21:07:28< boucman> if things get really bad we can move one of the conversation to another chan
20100611 21:07:30< eleazar_> i'm in no hurry
20100611 21:07:47< boucman> eleazar_: ok, as you wish...
20100611 21:08:21< gabba> boucman: also, you bring up an interesting topic: I noticed that footsteps were cooler than I thought, i.e. they change aspect depending on unit speed on the terrain they're on, etc. I thought maybe we could use recolored footsteps to indicate "planning mode", and only use arrows once the move has been defined.
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20100611 21:08:49< gabba> this comes at the price of less visual continuity
20100611 21:08:50< boucman> gabba: yes, I just saw that...
20100611 21:09:10< boucman> hmm, no I like the fact of using arrows instead of footsteps...
20100611 21:09:33< gabba> (this said I don't know if people notice that footsteps are dynamic, I never knew until I looked at the code :P)
20100611 21:09:45< boucman> my question is more about using the arrow framwork to draw footsteps, is it worth it, should we do it now ?
20100611 21:09:54< boucman> neither did I :P
20100611 21:09:58< eleazar_> I didn't notice
20100611 21:11:07< gabba> He he, maybe we need new footstep graphics. Different animal footsteps would be nice: bird steps for fast & light, bear steps for slow, and stuff
20100611 21:11:21< boucman> eleazar_: if you go in images/footsteps, you'll notice there are slow/medium/fast variants... they are probably visually too similar
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20100611 21:11:54< boucman> gabba: which prings us back to the idea of a drawing_arrow class to parameterize how arrows are drawn :P
20100611 21:12:10< boucman> but I don't think it's a priority, let's focus on the basics...
20100611 21:13:20< gabba> yeah, that was just a side-idea
20100611 21:13:33< boucman> if we go the "footsteps are not part of wb" way, either through reusing the footstep code or making the footsteps use the arrow code, then the few lines you've added should be remove (as a prototype we will have footsteps even in wb mode, but that's fine)
20100611 21:13:50< boucman> and we can focus on what happens on clicks...
20100611 21:14:43< gabba> yes, agreed
20100611 21:15:54< gabba> one thing I need to change is that a unit is not selected if we're in whiteboard mode and an arrow is being drawn
20100611 21:16:25< gabba> since you can now defined a move to the location of a unit already set to move somewhere else
20100611 21:16:55< boucman> not sure I follow you
20100611 21:17:06< gabba> sorry, first sentence wasn't clear
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20100611 21:17:59< gabba> we need to be able to select a unit, and plan a move to another unit's location (provided this second unit has a planned move that sends it somewhere else)
20100611 21:18:19< gabba> but right now, when you click at the second unit location, it selects it, of course
20100611 21:19:01< boucman> hmm, yes
20100611 21:19:12< gabba> the same thing will pop up with enemy units that have a "dead" action defined
20100611 21:19:45< boucman> hmm, on second thought, no, that's not true :P
20100611 21:19:55< gabba> huh?
20100611 21:20:24< boucman> assuming that the general unit_map is the modified one, except on execution, there is no problem since the unit is not there, only a ghost of it :P
20100611 21:21:57< gabba> boucman: true in principle, but right now it doesn't work that way
20100611 21:22:18< boucman> yes, but do we want it to work that way ? 
20100611 21:22:46< gabba> it comes down to finding the right spots to apply/unapply the temp modifiers, I don't do it around the select code right now
20100611 21:23:28< gabba> yes, I think we want to be able to define moves to occupied locations, otherwise planning in tight spots will be very hard
20100611 21:24:23< boucman> no, I meant to we want to keep your current policy if apply modif/do pathfinding/unapply modif
20100611 21:24:44< boucman> or move to my plan of unapply modif/execute move/reapply remaining modif
20100611 21:25:15< gabba> ahhhh, it's clearer said this way :)
20100611 21:25:34< boucman> :)
20100611 21:25:41< gabba> If it's possible, I like the idea very much
20100611 21:26:29< kevg> Do ai units move to targets on combat phase? Or just attack them?
20100611 21:27:22< boucman> kevg: that's a question for Crab_
20100611 21:27:38< Crab_> kevg: move+attack
20100611 21:27:44< boucman> gabba: so, what is our next coding move ?
20100611 21:28:08< Crab_> kevg: see combat_phase::execute in src/ai/testing/ca.cpp
20100611 21:28:26< gabba> boucman: hmm, can we postpone transforming the footsteps for now?
20100611 21:28:30< Crab_> kevg: note that the code there is slightly buggy
20100611 21:29:12< boucman> gabba: of course, you might have to revert your current temporary arrow code if it gets in the way, but there is no emergency in rewriting footsteps
20100611 21:29:31< Crab_> kevg: bug #16102 , that is (which is rendered harmless thanks to the failsafe checks in src/ai/actions.cpp )
20100611 21:29:32< gabba> boucman: applying "your plan" would seem like the logical next step, it's gonna dictate a lot of the interactions between input and whiteboard
20100611 21:29:55< boucman> yes, that was my thought too
20100611 21:30:13< boucman> basicaly reach the level of functionality we currently have but with "my plan"
20100611 21:30:39< boucman> then maybe add a :execute command (or an execute button, if we go that way)
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20100611 21:31:41< gabba> but I feel we'll need to change quite a bit of code... for instance we'll probably need to force recalculation of many member variables in class mouse_event (at least the path) when unapplying our temp modifiers
20100611 21:32:19< boucman> maybe... 
20100611 21:32:42< boucman> not the path, though, it's recalculated on every redraw anyway, isn't it .
20100611 21:33:26< kevg> Crab_: i changed healing phase and now units can go to healers with no moves. The best place to go to chooses with the power_projection. Now i want to stop healers to do anything in combat phase. Also i want to write function which evaluates healing amount for some map_locations. And on healing phase i'll want to move healers to places where they can do the most healing.
20100611 21:34:11< Crab_> kevg: what about healers which can attack ? will the ai be able to attack with them /
20100611 21:34:12< Crab_> ?
20100611 21:34:20< gabba> not sure what happens to  the path in the context of "execute"... there's not gonna be an up-to-date path in mouse_handler
20100611 21:34:34< billynux> any idea on why this line won't work in finding that lib? -> find_package( Boost 1.35 REQUIRED COMPONENTS program_options)
20100611 21:35:24< Crab_> kevg: to stop healers from doing anything in combat phase, you can use a filter in the 'attacks' aspect. 
20100611 21:35:47< Crab_> kevg: see /wesnoth/data/ai/scenarios/ai_arena_small/0004-filtered_combat.cfg for the example
20100611 21:36:13< boucman> gabba: let's try it... that's the only way to know...
20100611 21:36:21< Crab_> kevg: a cool thing if you'd consider the effects of poison, too.
20100611 21:36:43< kevg> Crab_: as i know all healers can make only small amount of damage (am i right) and i think there is no serious reason to attack with them
20100611 21:36:57< boucman> gabba: and if the path is not correct until the mouse changes hex, that's not a big deal as far as puting the basic concepts in place is concerned
20100611 21:37:18< Crab_> kevg: for example, some healers have 'arcane' damage, which is very useful against undead
20100611 21:37:25< gabba> boucman: let's say I use the hotkey for executing my move #1, then the mouse input code has no idea of what's going on (the mouse isn't even involved)
20100611 21:37:31< Crab_> kevg: white mage, for example
20100611 21:37:54< boucman> kevg: paladin
20100611 21:37:56< eleazar_> also they will never level up if you don't attack with them
20100611 21:38:22< kevg> Crab_: ok, i see now it is bad idea to stop attacking at all (i have bad knowledge of wesnoth)
20100611 21:38:24< Crab_> kevg: also, some of them can 'slow' enemy units, which is very important
20100611 21:38:25< gabba> boucman: I'm not sure it even makes sense to put action-execution code in mouse_events.cpp, in that light
20100611 21:39:18< boucman> indeed, the mouse code should have a "on unit_map change" callback (which it probably already have, I can't imagine things working without something like that)
20100611 21:39:49< boucman> Crab_: evaluate action scores :P
20100611 21:40:36< kevg> Crab_: is it possible to write specific logic for healers on healing phase with lua or formula, isn't it?
20100611 21:40:43< Crab_> yes
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20100611 21:41:27< Crab_> kevg: as a workaround, you can penaltize any attack which uses healers, depending on how many units they can heal now, at their current position, compared to the expected amount of healing at the 'new' position
20100611 21:41:45< gabba> boucman: well, I'll look at your solution and see if it's feasible. I need to look around the code more to have an informed opinion on move execution
20100611 21:41:51< kevg> Crab_: so, it looks like the best i can do with my current task is to write lua or formula candidate action. ok
20100611 21:42:08< Crab_> kevg: ok
20100611 21:42:34< boucman> gabba: the fastest way might just be the "code/test/see where it breaks" design method
20100611 21:42:46< Crab_> boucman: yes, you're right. but, to start doing that, the code needs to be refactored a bit to split the combat phase into pieces (it's a small refactoring)
20100611 21:43:01< boucman> i.e since it's not possible to remove nor execute a planned action at this point, just stack on mouse click, and see what happens
20100611 21:43:15< Crab_> boucman: that way, it'll be possible to score 'good' attacks depending on alternate evaluation functions
20100611 21:43:57< kevg> Crab_: it would be better to write function to evaluate healing amount on c++ or it doesn't matter? Can i use c++ function from lua or formula?
20100611 21:44:06< boucman> Crab_: yeah, we've been avoiding that refactoring for some time, but we'll have to do it at some point
20100611 21:44:31< Crab_> kevg: you can use only 'hooks' exposed to formula\lua.
20100611 21:44:39< Crab_> kevg: you can code such a hook in c++
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20100611 21:44:57< Crab_> kevg: also, from lua, you can use WML
20100611 21:45:32< gabba> boucman: I'll use the "see if it breaks" approach as much as possible; but what do you mean by "stack on mouse click" ?
20100611 21:46:51< gabba> you mean almost "simulating a mouse move and click" by calling the same methods... or?
20100611 21:47:12< boucman> no, not at all
20100611 21:47:20< boucman> "on mouse click" is not very clear
20100611 21:47:36< boucman> I mean "when the player selects a destination hex"
20100611 21:48:03< boucman> at that point, you add the planned_move to the manager, but you apply it to the unit map immediately...
20100611 21:48:12< boucman> and see what happens...
20100611 21:48:22< gabba> boucman: ok, I get it
20100611 21:48:58< boucman> (except for fog everything should work out of the box... problems might arise at execution time, but i'm not too worried)
20100611 21:48:59< gabba> just thought of another possible stumbling block: *cue sinister music* the "select" event
20100611 21:49:05< boucman> :P
20100611 21:50:44< boucman> gabba: ok, the select event is a related problem, but not one that changes our decision as to use the modified unit_map or not...
20100611 21:50:56< boucman> and i'm really not sure how to make that interact with wb
20100611 21:51:44< gabba> also, I just realize you may be imagining the interface differently than me... my concept drawings were showing the "real unit" at the start (i.e. "real") position; it seems to me you're inverting things and putting the ghost at the start position?
20100611 21:51:48< kevg> Crab_: is there are c++ candidate actions but ca.hpp actions?
20100611 21:52:12< boucman> my best idea is to change the semantic to fire them on any unit, just before executing a planned action on that unit, but that's not exactly the same thing
20100611 21:52:24< gabba> 'cause if we keep a modified unit map around, the units are gonna get drawn at their destination position
20100611 21:52:31< boucman> gabba: yes and no
20100611 21:52:48< Crab_> kevg: there's one in ca_testing_move_to_targets.cpp , as well
20100611 21:52:49< boucman> I know your design, and I was concious of changing that
20100611 21:52:52< boucman> however
20100611 21:52:59< boucman> 1) why not... 
20100611 21:53:33< Crab_> kevg: see src/ai/registry.cpp for a full list of c++ candidate actions
20100611 21:53:33< boucman> 2) which one is "the real one" and which one is "the ghost" is orthogonal to which one is "fully colored" and which one is "greyed" :P
20100611 21:54:26< gabba> 1) hasn't be tested visually and thought-out through like I did with my original idea, that's already a big "why" (I'm open to change, but it has to be studied in depth)
20100611 21:55:49< gabba> 2) the "real" unit location affects things like select-event menus, and defining a new move for the same unit
20100611 21:56:21< boucman> gabba: 1)yes, I agree, the alternative is interesting though, since what you see is closer to the "assumed situation" than your solution, your solution was more logical on first thought, though, so I'd say playtesting is most likely the only way to know
20100611 21:56:32< boucman> 2)yeah, true
20100611 21:56:45< kevg> Crab_: Candidate actions is some kind of pluggable things. Default are in ca.hpp. But for specific cases/units i can use another actions (lua, formula, or c++). Is my understanding correct?
20100611 21:57:03< gabba> you'd need to move the unit back to it's original position on select... or something like that
20100611 21:58:19< Crab_> kevg: candidate actions are pluggable things. they can be plugged into a candidate action evaluation stage. the list of default ones is in the ai configuration ( see data/ai/ais  directory). you can freely mix c++, lua, fai candidate actions.
20100611 21:58:19 * boucman hates select action more and more...
20100611 21:58:29< gabba> 1) It's a matter of going back to the drawing boards and doing mockups to spot the problems... waiting until after implementation and playtesting for that is pretty suicidal
20100611 21:59:01-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: 124 bugs, 281 feature requests, 13 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
20100611 21:59:02< boucman> well, in my case, since the gameplay is visually the modified unit_map, users would instinctively click on the target unit
20100611 21:59:11< boucman> but yes, it's not a simple problem
20100611 22:00:31< gabba> they would, but how do you present the interface for changing their planned move from there? my idea is you just select the unit at it's original location and then click the new destination, but in your case it gets much more complicated
20100611 22:02:33< gabba> also, when animating moves on execution, the unit would jump back to its original location and then move, that would look weird
20100611 22:03:07< boucman> good points... the first one can be avoided with another interface, but the second one is tricky
20100611 22:04:02< boucman> ok, that breaks more or less my idea of using the modified unit_map, doesn't it ?
20100611 22:04:31< gabba> it does... too bad actually, I really liked it on first impression
20100611 22:05:01< boucman> so did I :(
20100611 22:06:24< gabba> so, back to square one :P (I don't want to make you miss you meeting w/ eleazar btw, I can pore over the problem and we discuss it with renewed ideas on monday)
20100611 22:06:38< boucman> gabba: yes, let's do that, then
20100611 22:06:44< gabba> k
20100611 22:07:08< boucman> though try to think a bit more about my idea, there might be some ways around, and it does have some good sides it's a pitty to drop
20100611 22:07:12< boucman> eleazar_: around ?
20100611 22:07:16< eleazar_> yup
20100611 22:07:28< gabba> boucman: yes, I'll try to save it ;)
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20100611 22:07:54< boucman> so, there are a couple of questions I wanted to discuss, like how to synchronize each other for bugs and commits, and some questions about terrain types
20100611 22:08:06< boucman> and any ideas you might have for the future of terrains :P
20100611 22:08:21< eleazar_> * has lots of ideas
20100611 22:08:26< boucman> cool :)
20100611 22:08:36< boucman> ok, so first : commits and bug...
20100611 22:08:49< eleazar_> is listening...
20100611 22:09:08< boucman> our current method is that you commit terrains and I commit macros, it seems to work fine, but is a bit tricky for complicated terrains like waterfalls
20100611 22:09:28< boucman> (which are really complicated for me to integrate properly I must say :( )
20100611 22:09:50< boucman> I'd be happy to keep that method, unless it has problems I don't see
20100611 22:10:03< eleazar_> i don't really know anything about how the waterfalls work
20100611 22:10:08< boucman> what I want to avoid is having to do some artistic decisions, I have a very bad eye for art
20100611 22:10:42< eleazar_> also i've looked through the macros, and i have no idea what's going on... so i gotta leave that to you or somebody else ;)
20100611 22:11:18< boucman> cool, we seem meant to work together ;)
20100611 22:11:34< eleazar_> :)
20100611 22:12:00< boucman> my big limitation so far is for the "fine tuning" of macros... in other word I really don't have an eye for art, and there are all sorts of glitches in terrain I just don't see
20100611 22:12:59< boucman> so one of the thing I wanted to ask is that whenever you see a terrain glitch (that is on the macro side of things) you open a bug with a screenshot with a big red circle on the guilty area :P
20100611 22:13:45< boucman> I really need that to see the small glitches, and with the work I'm currently doing on macros, some of them might be postponed for some time, and the bugtracker is the only way to make sure none of them get lost
20100611 22:13:56< eleazar_> i can do that...
20100611 22:14:04< eleazar_> i'm still in 1.8.1
20100611 22:14:16< eleazar_> is anything likely to look different?
20100611 22:14:20< eleazar_> besides animations and fog?
20100611 22:14:20< boucman> oh, ok
20100611 22:14:30< boucman> what do you mean ?
20100611 22:14:59< eleazar_> i'm using the trunk's graphics and terrain cfgs
20100611 22:15:10< eleazar_> all your macros, etc.
20100611 22:15:17< boucman> oh, ok, so you're on trunk as far as terrain are concerned :P
20100611 22:15:27< eleazar_> animations are a little different since they are all in sync
20100611 22:15:39< boucman> you've seen the mess I did with cave walls then ;)
20100611 22:15:43< eleazar_> and for some reason fog is broken
20100611 22:15:50< boucman> yes, that's true
20100611 22:15:56< eleazar_> cave walls actually no
20100611 22:16:01< boucman> i don't know about fog, i'll trust you on that
20100611 22:16:06< eleazar_> last couple of days?
20100611 22:16:10< boucman> wall caves an lit wall caves
20100611 22:16:15< boucman> no, more like a month ago
20100611 22:16:27< boucman> wesbot: bug 15940
20100611 22:16:27< wesbot> Bug #15940  Assigned to: Jérémy Rosen <boucman>  Status: In Progress  Priority: 5 - Normal
20100611 22:16:30< wesbot> Summary: graphics glitch: cave wall terrain covers great tree
20100611 22:16:33< wesbot> Original submission: The cave wall at 16,12 of the new multiplayer map 2p Elen
20100611 22:16:34< eleazar_> oh, yeah how they overlap things stragnely
20100611 22:16:35< boucman> that sort of stuff
20100611 22:16:36< wesbot> sefar Courtyard covers up most the great tree located at 16,13.This doesn't 
20100611 22:16:39< wesbot> URL: https://gna.org/bugs/?15940
20100611 22:16:42< wesbot> Attached file (1st): https://gna.org/bugs/download.php?file_id=9081
20100611 22:17:06< boucman> i more or less know the reason (which boils down to the fact that I had totally misunderstood terrain code at the time
20100611 22:17:12< eleazar_> heh
20100611 22:17:24< boucman> i'll fix it when I have reached that point in my comprehension
20100611 22:17:54< boucman> right now I have a good understanding of base terrains, transitions and "simple" overlays. Wall/rails/bridges i'm currently learning
20100611 22:18:02< eleazar_> i am somewhat concerned how those wall pieces fit together also
20100611 22:18:21< boucman> yes, so am I.
20100611 22:18:39< boucman> they are not like normal walls because they need to mix with cave walls
20100611 22:19:14< boucman> basically we need transitions from cave walls to rocky-cave walls just like we have for keeps and castle, I think
20100611 22:19:24< eleazar_> anyway, lets talk about them first before you start redoing the WML on the wall
20100611 22:19:45< eleazar_> i might want to redo the graphics some
20100611 22:19:58< eleazar_> that might effect some of the glitches
20100611 22:20:02< boucman> ok, i'll wait then
20100611 22:20:38< eleazar_> i haven't seriously thought about it yet, i'm not sure if there's anything i want to change
20100611 22:20:48< eleazar_> anythign significant
20100611 22:20:52< boucman> ok
20100611 22:21:14< eleazar_> anyway, i do want to learn a bit more about how the terrain cfgs work
20100611 22:21:56< eleazar_> some of the more basic stuff should be possible for me, once i wrap my mind around it
20100611 22:22:10< boucman> eleazar_: I have a coule more questions for you, but we can have some talk about that afterward...
20100611 22:22:14< boucman> couple
20100611 22:22:18< eleazar_> sure
20100611 22:22:40< boucman> first one is : you have embelishments now... are these overlays (from a flag point of view) or not ?
20100611 22:23:00< eleazar_> i'm not sure what the flags do
20100611 22:23:23< eleazar_> please explain
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20100611 22:23:38< boucman> ok, basically you can't put two images with the same flag on a given hex
20100611 22:24:10< boucman> so we have a "base" flag that is set when adding the base image for the hex, wich makes sure it's impossible to have two base images on the same hex
20100611 22:24:39< boucman> the other common flag is "overlay" which is used more or less for everything that is not the base tile
20100611 22:25:06< boucman> for instance, forests set the overlay flag, and so do the flowers on grass
20100611 22:25:14< eleazar_> transitions don't have flags?
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20100611 22:25:38< boucman> they do, but it's not relevant for our discussion (I can go a bit in depth on that if you want)
20100611 22:26:30< eleazar_> ok, in that case i think embellishments get teh "overlay" flag.  I don't expect them to be used at the same time another overlay
20100611 22:27:15< boucman> eleazar_: ok, sounds fine. It wasn't obvious on first look
20100611 22:27:20< eleazar_> there might be some cases were it wouldn't look bad, but it would make using the editor too complicated IMHO
20100611 22:27:41< boucman> yes, there is that aspect of the problem too
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20100611 22:28:18< boucman> btw, was my new wiki documentation clear enough ?
20100611 22:28:19< eleazar_> of course there are things like mushrooms + beam of light--- but i see you got around that somehow
20100611 22:28:29< boucman> I tried to synthtize stuff but it's not that easy
20100611 22:28:40< boucman> I did ?
20100611 22:28:49< eleazar_> somebody did
20100611 22:29:03< boucman> well, I actually havn't look at that particular one yet, but I guess it works :P
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20100611 22:29:59< eleazar_> new documentation?   newer than that first link you sent me?
20100611 22:30:15< boucman> no, it's that one, 
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20100611 22:32:23< eleazar_> i understand most/all of "terrain.cfg" and some of "terrain-graphics.cfg" but the stuff in the "terrain-graphics" folder is very mysterious to me.  I don't use it much at all.
20100611 22:33:26< boucman> eleazar_: you don't have to change it much... though understanding some might help so you kno what you can do.
20100611 22:33:48< boucman> I think i'll remove some more macros, some of them are more dangerous than usefull
20100611 22:34:27< eleazar_> heh
20100611 22:36:00< boucman> do we have "complicated terrains" that are about to come in soon ? so I can prepare to receive them...
20100611 22:36:10< boucman> i'd like to avoid the waterfall thing
20100611 22:36:25< eleazar_> actually there *is* some stuff i can understand on your wikipage-- i just didn't get it the first time
20100611 22:37:05< eleazar_> are you prepared to do random transitions?
20100611 22:37:24< eleazar_> like randomly pick between 2 different south-facing transitions?
20100611 22:37:44< boucman> It might already work, let me check
20100611 22:37:50< eleazar_> i'd like to add that to several often seen terrains
20100611 22:38:11< eleazar_> and if they work, what naming convention do you want?
20100611 22:38:59< boucman> eleazar_: ok, they don't work, it's half a day of work to get something reasonable working
20100611 22:39:44< eleazar_> i don't have any graphics for it yet, but i'd start making them when it was ready
20100611 22:40:08< boucman> i'll PM you the naming convention once I have something working, 
20100611 22:40:20< eleazar_> OK
20100611 22:40:48< eleazar_> about the waterfall-- is there a different way you would like to do that, or is it just inherently complicated?
20100611 22:41:28< boucman> well, let me explain the problem
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20100611 22:41:57< boucman> most transitions are "side based" i.e they are on a given side of the hex, and you have one transition per hex (basically)
20100611 22:42:10< eleazar_> yeah, unlike castles, and chasms
20100611 22:42:14< boucman> walls are "corner based" 
20100611 22:43:11< boucman> waterfall are a mixture of both, i.e we have two south transition, one for the east half of the south border, one for the west side of the south border
20100611 22:43:32< boucman> and depending on the se/sw hex, we might use one or both
20100611 22:43:39< eleazar_> hmmm
20100611 22:43:52< boucman> and there are no generic rules, some can go when next to lava, other can't etc...
20100611 22:44:15< eleazar_> so the WML is crazy spagetti code?
20100611 22:44:27< boucman> the macros provided the artist work perfectly, afaict, but it's almost impossible to make them fit in the macro system I'm trying to do
20100611 22:44:50< boucman> no, it's not that complicated, it's just not reusable, nor internally consistant
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20100611 22:45:03< boucman> if you want, I think the artist developed it in the following way
20100611 22:45:30< boucman> he draw a transition, write a macro for that transition, test it, see a terrain next to which it doesnt look good, change the macro, 
20100611 22:45:59< boucman> move on to the next transition, repeats the process, except the terrain that don't look good are not the same, so the filters are totally different
20100611 22:46:08< boucman> etc... etc...
20100611 22:46:38< boucman> so the rules for each waterfall graphic have their own [terrain-graphic] block and there is no easy way to make a "common macro" out of them
20100611 22:46:54< eleazar_> i understand
20100611 22:48:02< boucman> i'm not sure if i'll just commit his file with a big warning "avoid doing the same thing" in it, or if i'll ask someone to do them in an easier way to integrate, or not be as precise wrt what is allowed next to what...
20100611 22:48:17< eleazar_> i would have thought waterfall could be built in a more standard way
20100611 22:49:15< boucman> they could probably have been if I had seen it coming and had been more carfull on directing the artist in the right direction...
20100611 22:49:18< boucman> that's a lesson for me
20100611 22:49:42< eleazar_> i'll be back in a minute...
20100611 22:49:44< boucman> they can probably be done like normal transitions I guess
20100611 22:54:43< eleazar_> Well, i considered the waterfalls kind of "provisional" they look better than nothing, but aren't quite at the quality i'd like.
20100611 22:55:41< boucman> ok, so no emergency for me to integrate them...
20100611 22:55:42< eleazar_> i wouldn't put a lot of work into them, because i hope they can be replaced
20100611 22:55:47< eleazar_> yeah
20100611 22:55:55< boucman> ok, in that case i'll work on other stuff
20100611 22:56:23< eleazar_> did you have another item on the agenda?
20100611 22:56:40< boucman> yes, 
20100611 22:57:50< boucman> i'll probably double the overlay macros into overlay_flat and overlay (or something like that) to differentiate the stuff that is always under the unit, like forest from stuff that could possibly be in front like the great tree
20100611 22:58:10< boucman> you probably won't have to care about that but I wanted to warn you beforehand
20100611 22:58:34< eleazar_> ok
20100611 22:59:15< boucman> and that's it
20100611 22:59:26< boucman> so your turn now, what ideas do you have for the future :)
20100611 23:00:25< eleazar_> The main thing i'm trying to do right now is fix up land-to-water
20100611 23:00:44< boucman> so beachs or cliffs ? :P
20100611 23:00:54< eleazar_> both hopefully
20100611 23:01:09< eleazar_> and something specific to caves
20100611 23:01:29< eleazar_> and *maybe* something specific to hills/mountains
20100611 23:01:36< boucman> ok, seems doable, even with your multi-layer idea...
20100611 23:02:48< eleazar_> the beach is a little trickier... to make the transitions the way i want to they need to extend into both the land and water hexes
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20100611 23:03:12< boucman> that should already be possible...
20100611 23:03:41< boucman> or not...
20100611 23:03:49< eleazar_> http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=432937&sid=8a8a53ad75a158c00a1ae4b44c95ec01#p432937
20100611 23:04:29< eleazar_> i don't think two separate side transitions will work, i.e. on regular transition on the water side, and one regular on the sand
20100611 23:05:32< boucman> i'll have a look into it, we might have to do it a bit differently, drawing transitions non-centered in a big caneva or something like that, but it's at least theoretically possible... I'll have a look
20100611 23:06:08< eleazar_> so it would either have to be corner transtions, or like you say in on something larger than 72x72
20100611 23:06:37< boucman> the thing is that the old macros, like transitions, don't use all the new features, and some stuff can be done in simpler ways than is currently done, but it's hard to check if it's exactly the same thing
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20100611 23:08:34< eleazar_> i'm not sure how corner transitions would mesh with well, with using regular side transitions for the non-beach shore
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20100611 23:09:06< eleazar_> i used to have a map that put ever terrain type next to every other terrain type
20100611 23:09:31< eleazar_> heh, it would have to be much bigger now
20100611 23:10:02< boucman> eleazar_: if you give me a corner transition between beach/water/grass I'll probably be able to fit it...*
20100611 23:10:17< boucman> yeah, though the old one could still be usefull as an early testing
20100611 23:10:46< boucman> anybody with mad python skillz to auto-generate it ? :P
20100611 23:11:27< eleazar_> i'd really like to avoid those kind of custom multiple-type transitions whenever possible-- it makes it so hard to update things and to add things
20100611 23:12:11< eleazar_> i'd want to make the graphics more modular and flexible
20100611 23:12:21< boucman> yes, I know... but if you consider that these are transitions, they are corner transitions between cliff transition and beah transition
20100611 23:12:29< boucman> the actual terrain they are on doesn't matter
20100611 23:12:40< eleazar_> ooh, good point
20100611 23:13:21< eleazar_> that might work very nicely
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20100611 23:13:29< boucman> that's how the macro I have in mind would handle them, we would have a corner transition macro with three params...
20100611 23:13:43< boucman> and it might solve part of my waterfall problem now that I think of it...
20100611 23:13:44< boucman> hmm
20100611 23:15:36< eleazar_> so if the beach has to be a corner transtion, you think the macros would be easier if all the land/water transitions were corner transitions?
20100611 23:16:19< boucman> hmm, no I don't think the beach should be a corner transition, 
20100611 23:16:49< boucman> I think it's the cliffs that would use different graphics when next to beaches, the beaches themselves wouldn't change
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20100611 23:18:40< eleazar_> yeah, nevermind
20100611 23:19:24< boucman> eleazar_: btw, do you have some WIP beaches somewhere whith which I could play ? (i.e already cut as layers, even if all sides are not available)
20100611 23:20:22< eleazar_> the animation engine is pretty quick?  we don't have to worry about a bunch of multi-hex transitions and layers some of which animate would cumulative slow things down?
20100611 23:20:49< boucman> i'd rather not think about it :P
20100611 23:20:50< eleazar_> boucman: no i don't have any WIP
20100611 23:21:21< Sapient> undoubtably, a lot of people will disable the animations for performance reasons
20100611 23:21:23< boucman> more seriously, though, it's very easy to deactivate all terrain animations on slow device, I think we have an option for that
20100611 23:22:02< boucman> Sapient: i'd argue on "undoubtably" mobile users might do it, but any laptop can handle it (my eee does)
20100611 23:22:10< boucman> anyway that's not the point
20100611 23:22:29< boucman> we can either have them optional like we already do, or no animations at all...
20100611 23:22:50< eleazar_> OK, i won't worry about plans that multiply animated transitions
20100611 23:24:43< eleazar_> maybe i should sync my development version of the terrain with the trunk-- it has some ugly spots
20100611 23:25:00< boucman> :)
20100611 23:25:16< eleazar_> but it's going to get confusing if i let it drift too far
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20100611 23:26:03< eleazar_> http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/download/file.php?id=41385
20100611 23:26:06< boucman> eleazar_: one more question, if I need to discuss with you some more, is it fine if we do it on IRC ? I know you don't want to stay here all the time, but I find it much more efficiant than exchanging mails...
20100611 23:26:34< boucman> hmm, weird
20100611 23:26:59< boucman> how are those stones made ?
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20100611 23:27:17< eleazar_> sure, my schedule is pretty flexible. we can set up other times to IRC
20100611 23:27:24< boucman> k, great
20100611 23:28:02< eleazar_> i just find it too distracting to leave on all the time like i used to
20100611 23:28:56< boucman> yeah, I can understand that
20100611 23:29:11< eleazar_> i'm trying to be more focused in my Wesnoth time -- i used to get involved in a lot of things besides terrain, but that's not sustainable for me
20100611 23:29:25< eleazar_> what stones do you mean?
20100611 23:29:42< boucman> the ford
20100611 23:30:08< eleazar_> it's an semi-transparent overlay with holes in it
20100611 23:30:21< eleazar_> so it's actually layered over the animated water
20100611 23:30:49< eleazar_> not an idea method, but quick and dirty
20100611 23:30:55< boucman> ok, and overlays are (by  default) over all transitions, so you probably needs to forcefully lower the layer
20100611 23:31:17< eleazar_> yeah we got that fixed since the screenshot
20100611 23:31:31< boucman> oh, ok
20100611 23:34:52< eleazar_> you know, this might be one of the most advanced 2d terrain engines ever
20100611 23:35:11< eleazar_> i'd think anything fancier would be 3d
20100611 23:35:31< boucman> we are 2.5D internally
20100611 23:35:33< boucman> :P
20100611 23:50:41< boucman> gabba: will you be here tomorow ?
20100611 23:52:06< gabba> boucman: no, I don't expect to be around this weekend
20100611 23:52:32< boucman> ok, see you on monday, then...
20100611 23:52:45< gabba> see you
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20100611 23:57:16< CIA-86> espreon * r43290 /trunk/data/core/images/portraits/undead/ (draug.png transparent/draug-2.png transparent/draug.png): Ran umcpropfix.
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--- Log closed Sat Jun 12 00:00:21 2010