--- Log opened Fri Jun 18 00:00:41 2010
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20100618 00:14:26< CIA-86> esr * r43538 /trunk/data/ (2 files in 2 dirs): Fix some recruitment-pattern glitches detected by wmllint.
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20100618 00:23:07< CIA-86> ivanovic * r43539 /branches/1.8/po/wesnoth-manpages/gl.po: updated Galician translation
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20100618 00:24:26< CIA-86> ivanovic * r43540 /trunk/po/ (wesnoth/gl.po wesnoth-manpages/gl.po): updated Galician translation
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20100618 00:45:33< CIA-86> espreon * r43541 /trunk/ (62 files in 3 dirs): Corrected some capitalization; ran pofix.
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20100618 03:11:23< CIA-86> ai0867 * r43542 /trunk/data/tools/wesnoth/ (wmlparser.py wmlparser2.py): Add note about a function being obsoleted by a core module in python2.6
20100618 03:11:27< CIA-86> ai0867 * r43543 /trunk/data/tools/wesnoth/wmlparser.py: Add --to-xml option to old python wmlparser. Patch by Hexane (Ryan Henszey)
20100618 03:11:30< CIA-86> ai0867 * r43544 /trunk/data/tools/wesnoth/wmlparser2.py: Port --to-xml option to wmlparser2
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20100618 03:42:26< CIA-86> eleazar * r43545 /trunk/data/core/images/scenery/dwarven-doors-closed.png: removed grass from dwarven doors since it often appears inside caves.
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20100618 05:21:25< AI0867> boucman: I've just locally added a 'functors' key to [terrain_graphics][image] to recolor the new water in WML. Is that okay with you?
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20100618 06:57:24< CIA-86> espreon * r43546 /trunk/data/ (3 files in 2 dirs): Ran umcpropfix.
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20100618 07:01:16< CIA-86> espreon * r43547 /branches/resources/cartography-tools/ (bfw-640x480.psd bfw-htt-gimp.psd): Ran umcpropfix.
20100618 07:04:11< CIA-86> espreon * r43548 /branches/resources/effects/leaderflare.svg: Manually set properties.
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20100618 08:43:59< Ivanovic> moin
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20100618 08:44:10< Espreon> Grüß Gott.
20100618 08:47:15< CIA-86> espreon * r43549 /trunk/doc/ana/images/logo.svg: Ran umcpropfix.
20100618 08:49:52< CIA-86> espreon * r43550 / (25 files in 3 dirs): Ran umcpropfix.
20100618 08:51:32< Espreon> Uh, what?
20100618 08:52:04< Espreon> ... and it would appear that CIA went crazy.
20100618 08:52:36< Espreon> In other news, the filenames of the images in doc/design/whiteboard are evil.
20100618 08:53:19< ABCD> define "evil" :D
20100618 08:53:31 * ABCD hasn't synced recently
20100618 08:54:08< Espreon> CIA-86's report on r43550 was inaccurate.
20100618 08:54:19< Espreon> ... greatly inaccurate.
20100618 08:54:30< Espreon> ... which was caused by...
20100618 08:54:30< ABCD> oh
20100618 08:54:41< Espreon> Those files!
20100618 08:54:43< Espreon> http://cia.vc/stats/project/wesnoth/.message/266c8d9
20100618 08:55:30< Espreon> Yeah, whether gabba likes it or not, I'm renaming them.
20100618 08:55:31< ABCD> who was the idiot who created files with whitespace in the filename? :D
20100618 08:55:42< Espreon> If it fucks with CIA, then... yeahz.
20100618 08:56:05< ABCD> hey - at least it was just " ", not $'\n' or $'\t'
20100618 08:56:16< Espreon> Someone remind me to kick gabba in the face.
20100618 08:56:28< Espreon> ... while wearing geta.
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20100618 09:00:30< CIA-86> espreon * r43551 / (28 files in 2 dirs): Ran space2underscore.py.
20100618 09:00:33< zookeeper> who was the idiot who wrote software incapable of handling filenames with spaces?
20100618 09:00:59< Espreon> shadowmaster: ^
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20100618 09:01:32< shadowmaster> what the fuck? I didn't write CIA.
20100618 09:01:37< shadowmaster> Blame BearPerson.
20100618 09:01:50< Espreon> I just wanted you to see this, that is all.
20100618 09:04:22< Ivanovic> zookeeper: the problem with spaces is that they are a common seperator
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20100618 10:31:31< CIA-86> fendrin * r43552 /trunk/data/campaigns/Legend_of_Wesmere/maps/14_Human_Alliance.map: LoW 14: Made the trolls' keep winterish.
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20100618 13:11:47< DrJones> Hi, Valkier
20100618 13:11:56< Valkier> Hey
20100618 13:19:10< DrJones> Ive done the sketch of a death animation, but I might have not follow the guidelines. I'll have to read them
20100618 13:20:33< Valkier> Cool
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20100618 14:12:50< CIA-86> jetryl * r43553 /trunk/data/core/ (25 files in 3 dirs): New idle animation for the lich.
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20100618 14:28:06< boucman> hey all
20100618 14:30:04< Valkier> Heyas
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20100618 14:32:31< DrJones> welcome
20100618 14:39:02< AI0867> boucman: 05:21 < AI0867> boucman: I've just locally added a 'functors' key to [terrain_graphics][image] to recolor the new water in WML. Is that okay with you?
20100618 14:40:12< boucman> AI0867: in principle, that's fine with me, but how did you do it, did you use a new "builder" ?
20100618 14:41:03< AI0867> I added a functors member to rule_image_variant
20100618 14:41:19< AI0867> and made that contain the 'functors' key, if any
20100618 14:41:26< AI0867> then passed that along to image::locator
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20100618 14:41:31< boucman> ??? not sure what you mean, could you pastebin your svn diff, that would be simpler
20100618 14:42:05< AI0867> http://wesnoth.pastebin.com/8aYxitZR
20100618 14:42:26< boucman> thx
20100618 14:43:35< boucman> AI0867: no, that would interact badly with the maro system (force me to redo all the macro system for little gain, since there is already a facility for that in the macro system
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20100618 14:44:16< AI0867> there is?
20100618 14:44:26< boucman> I think the best way is to do a recoloring builder in data/core/terrain-graphics/builder.cfg that would add the functor at the image=level
20100618 14:44:35< AI0867> I did it that way because ".png" is appended in C++
20100618 14:44:55< boucman> (I assume functors are taken into account in image= if they are not, they should be added)
20100618 14:45:14< boucman> AI0867: hmm, good point, I had forgot about that
20100618 14:45:29< AI0867> and yes, it would require changing the macros
20100618 14:45:43< AI0867> I currently have some 50 lines of macros to recolour some water
20100618 14:45:54< boucman> AI0867: ok, here is another way to do it
20100618 14:46:38< boucman> stop adding the .png in the c++, add it in the BUILDER macros, but that would force us to have everybody go through a builder... which will be the case eventually but isn't the case yet
20100618 14:48:05< boucman> afk ~1/2h, we'll discuss it more after that if that's fine with you
20100618 15:07:57< boucman> back
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20100618 15:25:22 * DrJones performs his idle animation
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20100618 15:36:33< boucman> back
20100618 15:36:42< boucman> I had connection problems, apparently
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20100618 15:46:19< boucman1> flacky connection :(
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20100618 15:56:45< DrJones> Hi, boucman, could you help me with some noob problem?
20100618 15:56:55< boucman> depends on the problem
20100618 15:57:06< DrJones> I want to test some goblin animation inside the game
20100618 15:57:23< DrJones> But I can't find a way to choose the goblins as the playable faction
20100618 15:57:28< DrJones> in local play
20100618 15:57:40< boucman> goblins are part of northerners, not a faction
20100618 15:57:54< boucman> in single player type :debug to enter debug mode
20100618 15:58:08< boucman> then press shift-c to create a unit on selected hex
20100618 15:58:12< DrJones> That's good
20100618 15:58:39< DrJones> I got misguided because when I chose northerners, I didn't see any goblin in the list of units that appeared
20100618 15:58:43< DrJones> *confused
20100618 15:58:57< DrJones> Thank you very much
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20100618 16:05:49< AI0867> boucman: does everything use a builder? I'm still not too familiar with the terrain graphics macros
20100618 16:08:10< AI0867> ah, not yet
20100618 16:08:32< boucman> :)
20100618 16:08:58< boucman> builders are needed for animated terrains, but can be used for normal terrains
20100618 16:08:58< AI0867> also, the new water doesn't play nicely with non-core terrains
20100618 16:09:07< boucman> oh ?
20100618 16:09:18< AI0867> it becomes a hard-edged hex
20100618 16:09:35< boucman> it's still WIP, but it's an area where we can tweak stuff (unless it's next to a "complicated" terrain
20100618 16:09:37< AI0867> rather than the roughly circular bleed from 1.8
20100618 16:10:04< AI0867> dark hive has some simple transitions, but "metal floor" is a just a single image
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20100618 16:11:32< boucman> AI0867: what map, what campaign ?
20100618 16:11:49< AI0867> IftU, AtS, TSL, Thunderstone
20100618 16:12:04< AI0867> the metal floor is thunderstone only
20100618 16:12:15< AI0867> they all have dark hive (shaxthal hive)
20100618 16:15:25< boucman> mainline or umc ?
20100618 16:15:42< AI0867> all umc
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20100618 16:21:46< boucman> AI0867: I havn't fixed UMC but I broke lot of stuff I can have a look to help upgrading, but things might still change some more
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20100618 16:53:01< CIA-86> ai0867 * r43554 /trunk/data/core/terrain-graphics/ (7 files): Make all terrain graphics macros use BUILD_IMAGE
20100618 16:53:39< esr> boucman: wmlscope indicates a number of possible problems with your recent terrain-macro changes.  Please run 'make unresolved' in data/tools and clean up the messages.
20100618 16:53:53< boucman> esr: k, will do
20100618 16:54:58< AI0867> oh, crap, I changed more than that...
20100618 16:55:32< AI0867> ah, didn't commit that yet...
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20100618 17:16:59< boucman> AI0867: ouch, you're gonna conflict with my bridge WIP...
20100618 17:17:06< AI0867> =/
20100618 17:17:11< boucman> i'll manage, don't worry, and thx for doing all the chages
20100618 17:17:39< AI0867> it was 4 very similar regular expressions, not much work
20100618 17:18:56< boucman> will you do the following steps ? (change IMAGE_SINGLE to add the .png and remove it on the c++ side) ?
20100618 17:20:06< AI0867> already done so, testing now
20100618 17:20:41< AI0867> I got some warning about'off-map/alpha' though, not sure where it came from
20100618 17:20:50< AI0867> possibly IftU
20100618 17:21:57< AI0867> nope, not that either...
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20100618 17:23:23< boucman> AI0867: check in terrain-graphics.cfg, I think I saw something like that in there
20100618 17:23:51< AI0867> that's _off^_usr
20100618 17:23:59< boucman> hmm
20100618 17:24:04< boucman> in that case I don't know
20100618 17:24:09< boucman> grep...
20100618 17:24:22< AI0867> ah, it's themeWML
20100618 17:26:16< AI0867> didn't know that was still used
20100618 17:28:29< CIA-86> ai0867 * r43555 /trunk/ (6 files in 3 dirs): Move the appending of '.png' to image paths from C++ to the terrain BUILDER macros
20100618 17:29:03< Ivanovic> AI0867: good one!
20100618 17:30:43< DrJones> I have to go, see you later
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20100618 17:35:13< boucman> esr: could you help me interpret the following error ?
20100618 17:35:16< boucman> "../../data/core/terrain-graphics/internal-border.cfg", line 36: macro BORDER_RESTRICTED2_PLFB(TERRAIN=terrain_code, ADJACENT=terrain_pattern, PROB=numeric, LAYER=numeric, FLAG=name, BUILDER=None, IMAGESTEM=name) has mismatches:
20100618 17:35:16< boucman> "../../data/core/terrain-graphics/transitions.cfg", line 46: BORDER_RESTRICTED2_PLFB({TERRAIN}, {ADJACENT}, {ADJACENT}, {PROB}, {LAYER}, {FLAG}, {BUILDER}, {IMAGESTEM}) with signature (TERRAIN=None, ADJACENT=None, PROB=None, LAYER=None, FLAG=None, BUILDER=None, IMAGESTEM=None, None=None)
20100618 17:35:31< esr> boucman: Yes.
20100618 17:35:37< esr> Looking...
20100618 17:35:37< boucman> thx :)
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20100618 17:37:29< esr> That's a nasty one.  It's getting no type information at all from those macro actuals.
20100618 17:38:08< esr> Do you understand what the check logic tries to do?
20100618 17:41:16< boucman> it tries to guess what the parameter types are and then does typechecking...
20100618 17:41:36< boucman> esr: i'll commit the fixes I have so far (which were real errors, thx) 
20100618 17:42:10< esr> OK, I'll take a look at the resullts.
20100618 17:42:22< CIA-86> boucman * r43556 /trunk/data/core/terrain-graphics/ (internal-complex.cfg transitions.cfg): fix some macro errors detected by wmlscope
20100618 17:42:29< boucman> basically all the errors before mismatch are solved
20100618 17:43:29< AI0867> boucman: appending an image functor doesn't seem to work too well =/
20100618 17:43:29< CIA-86> ai0867 * r43557 /trunk/data/core/terrain-graphics/builder.cfg: Move the .png appending around to make it easier to write custom animation builders
20100618 17:44:34< boucman> AI0867: hmm, how do you do it ?
20100618 17:46:04< AI0867> append some terribly obvious image functor (like ~GS()) to ANIMATE_15 and see the images disappear
20100618 17:46:15< AI0867> wait for the next commit first, I broke something
20100618 17:47:19< CIA-86> ai0867 * r43558 /trunk/data/core/terrain-graphics/builder.cfg: Revert r43557 as it doesn't work with () macro arguments
20100618 17:47:25< AI0867> and it can't be appended to ANIMATE_15 now, but to the internal things
20100618 17:47:27< boucman> AI0867: in builder.cpp around line 332 there is a logic looking if file exists, uncomment the printf to see what files the terrain builder didn't find...
20100618 17:47:40< boucman> if functors are not cleaned at that stage, that might explain what you see
20100618 17:47:57< AI0867> I need to go now, I'll do that when I get back
20100618 17:48:04< boucman> k, sure
20100618 17:59:11< CIA-86> esr * r43559 /trunk/data/campaigns/The_South_Guard/scenarios/01_Born_To_The_Banner.cfg: Fix a broken image reference detected by wmlscope.
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20100618 18:08:27< CIA-86> boucman * r43560 /trunk/data/core/ (13 files in 2 dirs): bridge reorganisation step one : use only [image] out of [tile] and merge three variants into a single macro
20100618 18:10:16< esr> boucman: To fix some of the type mismatches I think we need to modify meta-macros in core/terrain-graphics/transitions.cfg - specifically, a number of TERRAIN formals need to become TERRAIN_PATTERN.  One such is TRANSITION_COMPLETE.  Would you please do that so I can see what it does to the error message list?
20100618 18:11:28< boucman> esr: I suppose you don't do it yourself because of the meta-macro stuff ?
20100618 18:11:47< esr> Right, I don't know how that works.
20100618 18:11:56< boucman> k, doing it
20100618 18:12:12< esr> Is the expand-macros thing documented anywhere?
20100618 18:12:19< boucman> is TERRAIN_PATTERN like TERRAINLIST for you ?
20100618 18:12:29< esr> Wait..
20100618 18:12:42< boucman> my command line is
20100618 18:12:54< boucman> for i in  * ; do python ../../../data/tools/expand-terrain-macros.py -a -r $i ;done
20100618 18:12:59< boucman> if that helps...
20100618 18:13:58< esr> TERRAIN_PATTERN and TERRAINLIST are equivalent, use whichever you like.
20100618 18:14:11< boucman> k
20100618 18:14:48< esr> Is there some makefile you could put that line in?  With a comment above it explaining that this is how you rebuild the generated macros?
20100618 18:15:39< boucman> esr: it could be done, but I'm very bad at makefiles, so if you could write it, I would be gratefull
20100618 18:15:48< CIA-86> esr * r43561 /trunk/data/tools/Makefile: Remove an obsolete production.
20100618 18:15:53< esr> I can do that.
20100618 18:16:19< CIA-86> boucman * r43562 /trunk/data/core/terrain-graphics/transitions.cfg: parameter renaming in macros for wllint
20100618 18:16:20< boucman> esr: commited (havn't tested the result, though
20100618 18:16:21< esr> Thinking about where it should go.  What directory do you run it in?
20100618 18:16:40< boucman> usually data/core/terrain-graphics
20100618 18:18:36< esr> Probable best to create a new makefile there.  I'll do that.
20100618 18:18:43< boucman> thx
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20100618 18:19:42< esr> boucman: It's good that we'tre giving this some attention.  The amount of undocumented black magic in the terrain macros has been bothering me fo r a while.
20100618 18:20:29< boucman> esr: the "core WML" itself is correctly documented, though it's a tricky programming language by itself
20100618 18:21:10< boucman> the macros have been built in an ad-hoc manner, no naming convention, some similar stuff with slight variations, some identical but repeated stuff, lots of unused stuff
20100618 18:21:23< boucman> so far my efforts have been mainly to make these coherent
20100618 18:21:58< esr> boucman: And that's a good thing.
20100618 18:23:18< esr> OK, that first change helped a lot.  I'm seeing unresolved IMAGE_L_N in the rails file, though.
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20100618 18:26:51< AI_irchon> /part
20100618 18:27:03< AI_irchon> ?
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20100618 18:28:18< CIA-86> esr * r43563 /trunk/data/core/terrain-graphics/Makefile: An attempt at canning the meta-macro rebuild into a makefile.
20100618 18:28:36< esr> boucman: Try 'make' in data/core/terrain-graphics
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20100618 18:30:41< boucman> wonderfull, thx a lot
20100618 18:31:34< esr> Thatr will help me, too.  I've been blocked on trying to fix those wmlscope errors when you weren't around.
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20100618 18:33:40< CIA-86> esr * r43564 /trunk/data/core/terrain-graphics/Makefile: Typo fix.
20100618 18:34:49< esr> boucman: Do you know what's going on with this undefined IMAGE_L_N macro?
20100618 18:36:09< boucman> ???
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20100618 18:36:46< boucman> esr: i'll fix it right away
20100618 18:37:30< boucman> done
20100618 18:37:38< CIA-86> boucman * r43565 /trunk/data/core/terrain-graphics/rails.cfg: re-add an bridge internal macro that was used out of bridges
20100618 18:37:53< mpiechotka> Hello. I found that wmllint in 1.8.2 changes "user_team_name=_ name" into "user_team_name=_ _ name". I assume that either it should be left as it (if syntax did not changed) or as "user_team_name= _ name" if the =_ is no longer valid. I was redirected here from #wesnoth.
20100618 18:39:37< esr> boucman: Fix confirmed.
20100618 18:39:56< boucman> esr: cool
20100618 18:40:09< esr> boucman: OK, now *I'm* going to try fixing a meta-macro, to see if I can do it right.
20100618 18:41:39< boucman> ok, thx
20100618 18:43:23< esr> boucman: I'm looking at overlay.cfg, line 114. It's a meta-macro.  If I change TERRAIN to TERRAIN_PATTERN there, should I need to do anything else?
20100618 18:43:40< boucman> run the makefile :P
20100618 18:44:03< boucman> and i'd rather use terrainlist than terrain_pattern, since that's what seems to be used eerywhere else in terrain macros
20100618 18:44:14< esr> OK.
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20100618 18:49:59< esr> boucman: Excellent, that seeemed to work just fine.
20100618 18:51:23< CIA-86> esr * r43566 /trunk/data/core/terrain-graphics/overlay.cfg: Cleanup for an argument-type mismatch.
20100618 18:53:56< boucman> cool
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20100618 19:01:02< esr> boucman: You know, TERRAIN_PATTERN is only known to my typechecker for coompatibility weith the code I fiund in place.  Should we just change all instances to TERRAINLIST?  I could do that easily, and it would remove a case from my check logic.
20100618 19:01:42< boucman> esr: actually, the subtle difference between TERRAIN and TERRAINLIST doesn't really make sense either
20100618 19:02:03< esr> I've been wondering about that.
20100618 19:02:08< boucman> from a WML PoV they are exchangeable.
20100618 19:02:39< esr> The reason I distinguished them originally is that some utility macros do take a single terrain as argument. 
20100618 19:02:43< boucman> there are subtle places where a user can prefer TERRAIN over TERRAINLIST, but the typechecking can't guess that since a same macro could be used in both cases
20100618 19:03:14< boucman> esr: there is no place in terrain-graphics wml where a single terrain is mandatory afaik
20100618 19:03:24< esr> I'm talking standard-library macros, not the terrain stuff.
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20100618 19:04:38< boucman> I don't think there are many terrain arguments in many macros except in those stuff
20100618 19:04:53< boucman> we can merge terrain_pattern and terrainlist with a good renaming, that's for sure
20100618 19:05:06< esr> Yes, I'll do that first.
20100618 19:05:56< CIA-86> esr * r43567 /trunk/data/core/terrain-graphics/walls.cfg: TERRAIN[123] -> TERRAINLIST[123]. Cleans up som wmlscope messages.
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20100618 19:15:45< CIA-86> esr * r43568 /trunk/data/ (3 files in 3 dirs): Elinminate the redundant TERRAIN_PATTERN formal in favor of TERRAINLIST.
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20100618 19:22:52< CIA-86> esr * r43569 /trunk/data/core/terrain-graphics/ (base.cfg internal-border.cfg): TERRAIN -> TERRAINLIST, Cleans up some wmlscope messages.
20100618 19:24:04 * Espreon disappears...
20100618 19:24:20 * Valkier licks your cat
20100618 19:28:09< esr> zookeeper: You there?
20100618 19:28:17< zookeeper> esr, yes
20100618 19:29:32< esr> In LIMIT_CONTEMPORANEOUS_RECRUITS, can you pass a comma-separated list of side numbers in and expect it to work?  It looks to me like the answer is "no".
20100618 19:29:40 * zookeeper looks
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20100618 19:30:31< zookeeper> esr, yes, a comma-separated list works there
20100618 19:30:45< zookeeper> it won't work for LIMIT_RECRUITS though
20100618 19:30:58< esr> zookeeper: OK, I'll change the formal type from SIDE to SIDES then.
20100618 19:31:30< zookeeper> sure
20100618 19:33:48< esr> (That matters because the typechecker in wmlscope treats SIDE and SIDES differently.
20100618 19:33:50< esr> )
20100618 19:45:34< CIA-86> boucman * r43570 /trunk/data/core/terrain-graphics/ (4 files): bridge refactoring step 2: add possibility to use random bridges (note that it won't be possible to have animated bridges)
20100618 19:52:30< CIA-86> esr * r43571 /trunk/data/core/macros/side-utils.cfg: SIDE -> SIDES in LIMIT_CONTEMPORANEOUS_RECRUITS.
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20100618 20:45:08< gabba> bonjour
20100618 20:45:47< Crab_> hello, gabba
20100618 20:45:54< gabba> hi Crab_
20100618 20:46:15< billynux> bonjour gabba
20100618 20:46:15< gabba> salut billynux
20100618 20:47:33< Crab_> gabba: I've wanted to tell yesterday that, if you change the movement points of the units, be sure to check that the code you use to do/undo moves will deal with STATE_NOT_MOVED and STATE_UNCOVERED properly
20100618 20:47:58< Crab_> gabba: it *should* be ok if you use current undo code. but it'll not hurt to check after it's done.
20100618 20:48:05-!- boucman [~rosen@wesnoth/developer/boucman] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100618 20:48:18< gabba> Crab_: yes, I was reading the conversation you had with boucman just after I left yesterday
20100618 20:48:30< boucman> hey gabba
20100618 20:48:30< gabba> speaking of whom... hi boucman
20100618 20:48:35< Crab_> gabba: STATE_NOT_MOVED is important because units which have not moved heal 2hp at the start of the next turn.
20100618 20:48:52< Crab_> gabba: and, if a unit heal for one player but don't heal for others, we'll have a oos
20100618 20:48:56< boucman> gabba: my connection is a bit flacky, so don't be suprise if I stop answering or just disapear
20100618 20:49:02< gabba> boucman: ok
20100618 20:49:03< boucman> i'll do my best to stay around, though
20100618 20:49:50< Crab_> gabba: we've actually hit it last year in a dev game, where a ghost was dead on Dragonking's PC but stayed alive on our PCs. :)
20100618 20:50:12< gabba> Crab_: normal, it's a ghost ;)
20100618 20:50:26< billynux> :)
20100618 20:51:03< gabba> Crab_: I'm not 100% sure yet I want to change the movement points of units.
20100618 20:51:30< gabba> maybe just showing on the arrows how far they'll get in one turn would be enough?
20100618 20:51:56< Crab_> gabba: yes, ghosts are normal :) but OOS rearing its ugly head in a *dev* game is not :)
20100618 20:52:34< Crab_> gabba: well, changing MP of the original unit is not good
20100618 20:52:38< boucman> gabba: playing with the interface make me think you were right, the ghost should be at dst and the full unit at src :P
20100618 20:52:56< boucman> and probably not have ghosts at intermediary points, if that's not too difficult
20100618 20:53:02< Crab_> (where original is 'full unit at src')
20100618 20:53:35< gabba> boucman: oh noes, changing your mind again :P
20100618 20:54:12< gabba> boucman: it's good I prototyped it, then. But what is it you don't like in this new iteration?
20100618 20:54:18< boucman> gabba: UI design principle 101: designing a UI is not a logical process, you can only get it right if you try/adjust/try again
20100618 20:54:30< boucman> it doesn't "feel good" :P
20100618 20:55:30< boucman> maybe with an arrow more transparent and almost invisible ghost...
20100618 20:55:35< boucman> i'm not sure
20100618 20:56:43< gabba> Crab_: assuming the latest prototype (where I change the position of units on the unit map to match the end of the arrow), I'll have to put units back at their real position before transmitting anything on the network. At that point, I could also restore stuff like movement points and other status.
20100618 20:57:06< Crab_> yes, just keep those flags in mind
20100618 20:59:21< gabba> boucman: at some point I tried it with no ghost at all and it looked ok
20100618 21:00:23< gabba> boucman: the arrows do make a mess though... my "arrow mess" test is to surround the ghost in the test scenario with nearby units
20100618 21:00:29< boucman> none at all, or none at intermediate points ?
20100618 21:00:40< billynux> Crab_, boucman : I'm doing something different right now, but... is there some other network  related .cpp besides network.cpp and network_worker.cpp?
20100618 21:00:46< gabba> boucman: none at all
20100618 21:01:12< Crab_> billynux: define 'network related'
20100618 21:01:51< billynux> Crab_, anything implementing communication features through networks (?)
20100618 21:02:14< billynux> such as using SDL_net (the stats_uploader uses SDL_net directly :( )
20100618 21:02:44< Crab_> well, there's a patch which can change stats uploader to boost.asio, lying around
20100618 21:03:43< billynux> yes, orfests'
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20100618 21:05:15< billynux> Crab_,  I can probably rewrite the stats uploader to use ana as well... and I already submitted a patch to remove the module entirely :P
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20100618 21:06:02< CIA-86> boucman * r43572 /trunk/data/core/terrain-graphics/rails.cfg: start merging rails with bridges, use common macros whenever possible
20100618 21:06:34< Crab_> well, the wesnothd and campaign server seem to be using network functionality, but at higher level than network.cpp and network_worker.cpp
20100618 21:11:33< billynux> Crab_, yes, thats why I ask.. if they use the network API (defined in network.hpp), all I would have to do is reimplementing network.cpp with my own
20100618 21:11:45< Crab_> yes, looks like this
20100618 21:11:54< billynux> good
20100618 21:12:00< Crab_> of course, you might still need to modify them a bit if you introduce api changes
20100618 21:12:22< Crab_> (e.g., you might want to encapsulate something to hide implementation details)
20100618 21:12:39< billynux> well, I don't think the API is interesting
20100618 21:12:48< billynux> but the first step would be to emulate it
20100618 21:13:11< billynux> after that I could rewrite the API (network.hpp)
20100618 21:13:18< billynux> and then change every use of it
20100618 21:14:52< gabba> Espreon: thanks for the svn properties fix on my files. As far as the renaming goes... Why_do_we_use_badly_written_tools_that_can't_handle_whitespace_in_files_names_which_otherwise_work_perfectly_on_my_linux_box? Anyways thanks for fixing it, I wasn't aware it could cause problems.
20100618 21:15:57< boucman> gabba: anything to discuss tonight ?
20100618 21:18:50< gabba> boucman: well, the interface is bothering me.
20100618 21:19:13< boucman> I can understand... is it the fact that I change my mind all the time ?
20100618 21:20:42< gabba> More the fact that I'm not sure which option I prefer at this point.
20100618 21:20:48< boucman> hehe
20100618 21:21:36< boucman> our problem is to avoid confusion when there are lots of units and some of them move multiple times
20100618 21:22:14< boucman> the first thing that will need to be done is reduce the obtrusiveness of arrows, probably a transparency as low as 0.2 will be needed...
20100618 21:22:36< boucman> (that's a one line change, if you tell me where it is i'll do it and commit so we can test
20100618 21:23:28< boucman> after that there is the problem of not confusing intermediary points with final points. my idea would be to not have ghosts on intermediary points, but still "cut" the arrow
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20100618 21:25:55< kevg> Crab_: hi. How can i get attacker from attack_analysis?
20100618 21:26:07< Crab_> hi
20100618 21:26:09< boucman> I havn't really answered the src vs dst debate, but I think it's conditionned by another (more serious) question
20100618 21:26:12< gabba> boucman: move::ALPHA_NORMAL in move.cpp is the setting you're looking for
20100618 21:26:35< boucman> on the input front, will it be possible to "act" on ghosts
20100618 21:27:26< kevg> Crab_: i need to check if he is healer or not
20100618 21:27:27< gabba> boucman: but there's the whole problem with team-colored arrows other than red (blue arrows on water for instance)
20100618 21:27:29< boucman> thx, testing..
20100618 21:27:44< Crab_> kevg: each attack_analysis has multiple attackers
20100618 21:27:46< Crab_> 1 or more
20100618 21:27:56< gabba> boucman: maybe test in a local multiplayer scenario to see what I mean with team colors
20100618 21:27:56< boucman> gabba: good point
20100618 21:28:46< Crab_> kevg: fore ach std::pair<map_location,map_location> pair in attack_analysis.movements do resources::units->find( pair.first )
20100618 21:29:39< boucman> gabba: I expect the artists to solve that particular problem, which makes me realize that the normal arrow should be with a transparency of 1.0 and let the artists handle the actual transparency throught the png alpha
20100618 21:29:39< Crab_> kevg: see src/ai/formula/function_table.cpp +837
20100618 21:29:58< boucman> i.e we only manage changes of transparency, nominal transparency should be 1
20100618 21:30:20< kevg> Crab_: and then i don't know how to check if attacker is healer and reduce output value of attack_analysis::rating
20100618 21:30:40< gabba> boucman: for intermediary points, I guess the best would be to introduce a new symbol that shows "something happens here" while keeping the arrow continuous.
20100618 21:31:01< Crab_> kevg: it's not simple, see src/actions.cpp, calculate_healing function
20100618 21:31:37< boucman> gabba: yes, 0.2 is a bit too low but much better than 0.6
20100618 21:31:48< gabba> boucman: good point about the png alpha, even though right now recompiling is faster than changing alpha on 30 pngs.
20100618 21:32:10< boucman> gabba: agreed, that's why I tested by tweaking ALPHA_NORMAL :P
20100618 21:32:37< boucman> but i'll commit it with a value of 1.0 so we don't forget to do it
20100618 21:32:46< gabba> boucman: also, there could be a non-team-colored, maybe even non-transparent part to arrows, to improve visibility over similar colored terrain
20100618 21:33:24< gabba> boucman: I prefer if you don't put it at 1.0 until artists actually get involved, so I we can keep testing
20100618 21:33:31< boucman> gabba: don't worry about that, our artists will manage, trust me...
20100618 21:33:35< gabba> s/I we/we
20100618 21:33:44< boucman> ok, I won't commit then
20100618 21:34:25< kevg> Crab_: src/actions.cpp is for calculation heal on some location. I saw it and i currently can't write right evaluation code. Now i wanna reduce attack chance for healer and commit it for testings. Now it works. But when i thought about it a wanted to make better healers behaviour. 
20100618 21:35:08< boucman> so, again... do you think it will be possible to act on ghosts ? (both from a code PoV and a usability PoV, remember that whatever side we put the ghost on, it will always be possible to have more than one ghost on a hex)
20100618 21:35:18< gabba> so after testing, you still prefer barely visible arrows?
20100618 21:35:35< kevg> Crab_: attack_analysis::movements contains all possible attackers movements (src and dst)?
20100618 21:35:53< Crab_> kevg: all moves which needs to be done for that particular attack
20100618 21:36:10< boucman> gabba: yes, they are less intrusive, and that's definitely a good thing. I'd say 0.3 is probably a good guess
20100618 21:36:10< Crab_> e.g., if 3 our units attack an enemy, and they have to move
20100618 21:36:46< boucman> (note that having intermediate ghost be much more transparent then final ghosts could also help readability)
20100618 21:37:21< gabba> about acting on ghosts, it should be possible, but it depends on what we want to do with them
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20100618 21:37:51< mordante> servus
20100618 21:37:58< billynux> hi mordante 
20100618 21:38:01< gabba> for instance selecting the real unit when you click on any ghost would be possible, but the resulting move arrow wouldn't start from the ghost's location, obviously
20100618 21:38:05< mordante> hi billynux 
20100618 21:38:07< gabba> hi mordante
20100618 21:38:13< mordante> hi gabba 
20100618 21:38:23< boucman> hmm... ok
20100618 21:38:31< kevg> Crab_: and if we have not only healer wanted to attack and i reduce rating it would be reduced for non healers. So, maybe its better to not do it?
20100618 21:38:31< Crab_> kevg: simplify things...
20100618 21:39:01< Crab_> kevg: well, you can try to drop healer from the attack and see if it's still good 
20100618 21:39:03< billynux> hi mordante, we were talking with Crab_ about whether there is any other use of network features besides network.cpp?
20100618 21:39:14< Crab_> kevg: about finding healers, simplify things, too
20100618 21:39:17< billynux> the stats uploader uses SDL_net directly (which bugs me)
20100618 21:39:40< Crab_> kevg: note that all mainline healers heal X hp per turn to all healable units (where X is usually 4 or 8 )
20100618 21:39:52< Crab_> kevg: so, you can get the list of unit's abilities and find out the X
20100618 21:40:06< Crab_> kevg: it should work well enough
20100618 21:40:09< mordante> billynux, I'll catch up the log first
20100618 21:40:14< billynux> ok
20100618 21:40:49< gabba> boucman: one thing I haven't done yet is highlighting the arrow on ghost mouseover, that should be pretty easy... also showing the unit's stats as if you did a mouseover over the real unit location
20100618 21:40:51< Crab_> kevg: then, the fun part comes.
20100618 21:41:07< billynux> I'm evaluating exams :(  -> "Implement a function to check if an integer number is between 1 and 10" :(
20100618 21:41:19< mordante> billynux, regarding the upload it might have been added before the generic API was there
20100618 21:41:31< kevg> Crab_: fun part would last for several days?
20100618 21:42:08< gabba> boucman: would it be easy for you to add an alpha value parameter to unit::set_ghosted() ?
20100618 21:42:33< Crab_> kevg: a question: 'suppose the healer is at location Y and the locations of other units are known. what is the expected gold value of the hitpoints that the healer will heal next turn? take into account the fact that not all units need healing, and not all units might survive till next turn'
20100618 21:42:40< boucman> gabba: probably, i'll look right away
20100618 21:42:51< billynux> mordante, ok... I submitted a patch removing the stats uploader altogether, orfest changed it to use boost::asio in a different one
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20100618 21:43:38< mordante> billynux, I know, but I would postpone changing that part until the last and maybe discuss its stay or go before tackling it
20100618 21:44:09< billynux> ok
20100618 21:44:12< Crab_> kevg: answering that question (or a variant of it) is quite central to the movement decision.. since then, we'll be able to directly compare actions such as moves and attacks by comparing expected damage (for example, in gp) and expected healing (also in gp)
20100618 21:44:47< kevg> Crab_: for healing amount i'm checking all units around some location. Evaluate its max_hp-hp. Check is they are poisoned (and if healer can heal too). And adding all healing values for all units. Its done now.
20100618 21:45:45< Crab_> e.g., comparisons such as 'if I attack, I deal 30gp of damage, suffer 20gp of damage next turn and will heal 12hp', vs 'if I retreat, I deal 0gp of damage, suffer 0gp of damage next turn and will heal 4hp'
20100618 21:46:19< Crab_> sadly, evaluating max_hp-hp doesn't take into account the possible enemy action
20100618 21:46:33< Crab_> but it's still good for start
20100618 21:47:09< boucman> gabba: i'll have to do a second animation, ghosted_intermediate if that's fine with you...
20100618 21:47:22< Crab_> kevg: e.g., imagine 6 1hp units standing on the frontline
20100618 21:47:44< Crab_> it might seem that the healer can heal 8x6=48 hp if he stands in the center of them standing in a circle
20100618 21:47:57< Crab_> but, if all of them are killed by the enemy, that 48hp becomes 0hp.
20100618 21:48:05< kevg> Crab_: what is gp ? :)
20100618 21:48:06< gabba> boucman: that's fine. I suppose I can go tweak the alpha values for both of those in your code as needed.
20100618 21:48:21< mordante> billynux, regarding the boost system, you can make it simply required already, it will be in the near future anyway
20100618 21:48:23< Crab_> kevg: gold (as in 'gold piece', usual d&d term)
20100618 21:48:30< mordante> billynux, linking to an unused library doesn't hurt
20100618 21:48:31< boucman> yes, both will be in unit_animation.cpp around line 353
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20100618 21:49:52< Crab_> kevg: try to find a good estimate of the number of hitpoints healed, which doesn't have any obvious problems
20100618 21:50:28< billynux> mordante, it does if some people was compiling without having it installed
20100618 21:50:41< billynux> ubuntu allows for sublibrary installation
20100618 21:50:49< Crab_> kevg: but, even max_hp-hp is worth testing.
20100618 21:51:09< billynux> so... I didn't want to add an extra requirement that is not even used without -DUSE_ANA_NETWORK
20100618 21:51:13< mordante> billynux, of course, but since is will be required in the near future you also require it now
20100618 21:51:20< Crab_> kevg: once you have a prototype, submit it as a patch, and I'll try to test whether it's effective.
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20100618 21:51:45< mordante> Crab_, billynux boost system isn't header only
20100618 21:52:26< billynux> I know
20100618 21:52:38< Crab_> kevg: for start, let's try how the simplest thing will work - for attack which involves the healer, reduce the attack's rating
20100618 21:52:41< mordante> ok
20100618 21:52:49< gabba> boucman: I tested with the nearly-invisible arrows, and you're right, it looks better (at least for our current test of "src ghosted, dst not ghosted")
20100618 21:52:51< billynux> I had linking problems if I didn't link to i
20100618 21:52:51< billynux> t
20100618 21:53:05< Crab_> kevg: so we'll be able to see how it goes and think more about it
20100618 21:53:08< gabba> boucman: and the intermediate ghosts do look out-of place now
20100618 21:54:06< boucman> gabba: ok, our next step, I guess is to reenable move execution somehow, so we can get wb in an early playable state (i.e move only, but playable as move only)
20100618 21:54:59< kevg> Crab_: ok. I'll check movements map and if we have healer in it i'll reduce rating, for example, /2
20100618 21:55:01< gabba> boucman: for overlapping ghost units, I could highlight all paths that move through the hex
20100618 21:56:07< boucman> hmm
20100618 21:56:46< boucman> we have a usefull invariant, at any point there can be at most one src and one dst in a given hex... however there can be as many mid ghost as we want
20100618 21:57:06< boucman> and I don't think acting on mid makes much sense...
20100618 21:57:08< gabba> boucman: so, you think the current UI paradigm is worth investigating further? Or you're leaning more toward a revert to the old behavior?
20100618 21:57:15< gabba> boucman: ^exact
20100618 21:57:36< boucman> so I think that you should highlight pathes starting/finishing in the hex, but don't highlight the others, it would add more confusion than clarity
20100618 21:58:01< Crab_> kevg: ok
20100618 21:58:10< Crab_> kevg: of course, we might want to do the right thing eventually...
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20100618 21:59:32< Crab_> kevg: that is, take a few candidate actions like 'combat' , 'retreat', 'heal', (plus, maybe, new ones like 'block ), and write a group of evaluators which return cross-action scores in several score categories like 'damage deal, gp killed, increased risk, gp healed, etc'
20100618 21:59:54< Crab_> kevg: then, we'll be able to use the candidate action evaluation loop to directly compare apples to oranges (moves to attacks)
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20100618 22:00:57< gabba> boucman: "highlight pathes starting/finishing in the hex" sounds fine to me
20100618 22:02:05< boucman> good
20100618 22:03:47< kevg> Crab_: i can't do really good thing at once. When i try do that way i always get stuck. So i prefer gradualness.
20100618 22:04:13< Crab_> yes, it's good to start small and check out how it works
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20100618 22:10:39< CIA-86> mordante * r43573 /trunk/src/whiteboard/move.cpp: Fix a compiler warning.
20100618 22:10:44< CIA-86> mordante * r43574 /trunk/src/whiteboard/manager.cpp: Fix a compiler warning.
20100618 22:10:54< mordante> gabba, ^ just changed the functions to static to get internal linking
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20100618 22:14:04< CIA-86> boucman * r43575 /trunk/src/ (unit.cpp unit.hpp unit_animation.cpp): new animation disabled_ghosted for whiteboard
20100618 22:14:21< gabba> mordante: thanks for letting me know. What's the underlying principle/idea here, so I can understand? And what was the warning?
20100618 22:16:58< mordante> gabba, the warning is about a missing declaration (-Wmissing-declarations)
20100618 22:17:33< mordante> when a function isn't defined in a header it's unlikely to be linked from other transition units so the function doesn't need external linkage
20100618 22:17:59< mordante> and can use internal linkage instead, this speeds up linking somewhat
20100618 22:18:39< mordante> billynux, the only files grep shows use SDLNet are network network_worker and upload (and some files you added)
20100618 22:19:13< mordante> so that should be all so I would say focus on network and network_worker and leave upload until its fate has been decided
20100618 22:22:06< billynux> mordante, my thoughts exactly
20100618 22:22:25< billynux> mordante, my idea is rewrite the network.cpp file using ana (it should work ok)
20100618 22:22:39< billynux> mordante, as I see it, its not a lot of work
20100618 22:23:17< billynux> after that, I could improve the API (network.hpp) and change every use of it
20100618 22:23:49< mordante> ok sounds like a good idea
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20100618 22:24:30< gabba> mordante: ok, good to know
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20100618 22:27:18< mordante> billynux, do you have more questions at the moment?
20100618 22:28:53< billynux> nope... good to know you think my idea is good
20100618 22:29:04< mordante> :-)
20100618 22:29:10< billynux> to do things right though...I could probably just do the whole thing from scratch
20100618 22:29:15< mordante> do you know when you will be around this weekend?
20100618 22:29:21< billynux> the current API is now good (sorry Dave, or the original implementer)
20100618 22:29:43< billynux> mordante, mm... tomorrow, I'll log in about this hour
20100618 22:30:00< billynux> sunday... I can log in about your usual log in time
20100618 22:30:31< mordante> billynux, most of Wesnoth has been `developed' evolutionary so not everything is cleanly designed ;-)
20100618 22:31:00< billynux> I understand
20100618 22:31:10< mordante> I'm not sure whether I'm around tomorrow, but expect to be on Sunday
20100618 22:31:16< billynux> ok, me too
20100618 22:31:38< billynux> oh... a few lines back
20100618 22:31:40< mordante> so it's not a surprise that some things can benefit from a clean redesign
20100618 22:31:48< billynux> I meant "the current API is no good" :)
20100618 22:32:06< mordante> I figured that out ;-)
20100618 22:32:11< billynux> mordante, do you think I should just redesign it?
20100618 22:32:20< billynux> and not implement the current one...
20100618 22:33:04< mordante> if you think you can do it cleaner, yes but maybe it's a good idea to use the current API first to see whether ana really works and then start to clean
20100618 22:34:12< mordante> what do you think?
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20100618 22:41:40< billynux> thats ok
20100618 22:41:50< billynux> even doing this implementation
20100618 22:41:56< billynux> and then redesigning it
20100618 22:42:05< billynux> fall inside the scope of GSoC
20100618 22:42:55< billynux> mordante, what are the server-side and client-side uses of the network API (lazy on my part to ask)
20100618 22:43:02< billynux> ?
20100618 22:43:09< mordante> ok
20100618 22:43:24< mordante> what do you exactly mean with that question?
20100618 22:45:02< billynux> well.. which file holds the server code? such that they build a server_manager, etc...
20100618 22:45:13< billynux> I can look it up
20100618 22:45:23< billynux> but maybe you know of the top of your head
20100618 22:46:37< mordante> the normal server has its own subdirectory and the campaign server as well
20100618 22:47:08< mordante> but I think grepping for include "network.hpp" / include "network_worker.hpp" will reveal most or all cases
20100618 22:48:15< billynux> yes
20100618 22:48:25< billynux> I want to remove network_worker altogether
20100618 22:48:42< mordante> yup you said so before
20100618 22:48:44< billynux> but the campaign server uses it to set a property (!?!)
20100618 22:49:09< billynux> boucman doesn't really know why that is there
20100618 22:49:26< billynux> I should evaluate taking that from there
20100618 22:49:39< billynux> It IS a violation of several OO principles
20100618 22:51:52< mordante> I also don't really know 
20100618 22:51:57< mordante> but I'm off now
20100618 22:52:33< billynux> ok, g'night
20100618 22:52:39-!- mordante [~mordante@wesnoth/developer/mordante] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
20100618 22:53:06< billynux> I'm off too
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20100618 22:53:52< CIA-86> gabba * r43576 /trunk/src/whiteboard/ (manager.cpp move.cpp): Whiteboard: test animating unit move on move definition
20100618 22:55:13< gabba> boucman: ^ it needs tweaking, but it's my general idea for animating moves
20100618 22:56:27< gabba> boucman: now I'm gonna use your new paler ghosts for intermediate ones, clean up a little bit so the code makes sense again and doesn't crash, and then bring back move execution
20100618 22:56:56< boucman> gabba: did you notice the crash on exit btw ?
20100618 22:57:14< gabba> boucman: he he, I mentioned it in two of my commits
20100618 22:57:41< boucman> k
20100618 22:58:10< gabba> debugging the crash would've taken me three times as long as hacking in the test for the new interface. Now that I know it's worth it, I'm gonna clean up.
20100618 23:00:25< boucman> ok, make sense
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20100618 23:35:15-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: 128 bugs, 284 feature requests, 14 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
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20100618 23:54:10< Ivanovic> some probs with the addon server
20100618 23:54:18< Ivanovic> the 1.8 addon server
20100618 23:54:37< Ivanovic> these are the last log entries:
20100618 23:54:39< Ivanovic> 20100618 18:51:49 error network: SDLNet_GetError() is socketset is full
20100618 23:54:40< Ivanovic> 20100618 18:51:49 fatal network error: Could not add socket to socket set
20100618 23:54:44< Ivanovic> killing and restarting it now
20100618 23:56:17< Ivanovic> Soliton: do you have any idea what is up there?
--- Log closed Sat Jun 19 00:00:39 2010