--- Log opened Tue Jul 06 00:00:27 2010
--- Day changed Tue Jul 06 2010
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20100706 00:40:26< Sapient> hi, I am trying to build trunk with MSVC 2010 and the instructions for VC9 aren't working
20100706 00:40:47< Sapient> is anyone using VC10 Express ?
20100706 00:40:51 * crimson_penguin didn't know there was such a thing
20100706 00:41:11< CIA-87> gabba * r43940 /trunk/src/mouse_events.cpp: Whiteboard: properly erase temp arrow when hovering over another unit.
20100706 00:41:19< CIA-87> gabba * r43941 /trunk/src/ (3 files in 2 dirs): Whiteboard: disable footsteps when the whiteboard is active. Also, added drawing callback that will be used for actions numbering.
20100706 00:41:24< CIA-87> gabba * r43942 /trunk/src/whiteboard/manager.cpp: Whiteboard: get rid of the mutexes (part 1), since they aren't useful in the context of the latest UI.
20100706 00:41:26< Sapient> well, I went to download VC9 and I ended up with VC10 instead, so it must be the latest version
20100706 00:41:31< CIA-87> gabba * r43943 /trunk/src/whiteboard/ (manager.cpp manager.hpp): Whiteboard: get rid of the mutexes (part 2), finished.
20100706 00:42:20< Sapient> I was able to get cmake to build the projectfiles
20100706 00:43:18< Sapient> but I had to copy all the /external files to both /wesnoth and /wesnoth/src
20100706 00:43:48< Sapient> and some of the includes are still not working... and files seem to be missing from the projectfiles as well
20100706 00:45:11< Sapient> well I have pretty much wasted a while day trying to get it to work
20100706 00:45:59< Sapient> it may be easier to just ignore cmake I suppose
20100706 00:47:21< Sapient> on the bright side, I finally found a decent, free IRC client for Windows
20100706 00:47:35< shadowmaster> what is it?    wait- NO
20100706 00:47:41< shadowmaster> chatzilla ?!
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20100706 00:47:54< Sapient> yeah, I'm running Chatzilla on XULRunner
20100706 00:48:09< shadowmaster> you know that there's a free version of xchat?
20100706 00:48:25< Sapient> not for Windows, from what I read
20100706 00:48:38< shadowmaster> yes, there is for windows
20100706 00:48:51< shadowmaster> unofficial, but I've heard it works nonetheless
20100706 00:48:57< shadowmaster> http://silverex.org/news/
20100706 00:49:14< Sapient> Unix/Linux: Free software, Windows: Commercial, 30-day trial
20100706 00:49:21< Sapient> source: wikipedia
20100706 00:49:46< shadowmaster> if I'm linking you to a site it must be because I know that wikipedia didn't get all their facts right.
20100706 00:50:29< Sapient> yeah, doesn't surprise me
20100706 00:50:40< Sapient> Ok, I will try XChat next
20100706 00:50:53< Sapient> I am too lazy to research anything else until this one becomes a pain
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20100706 00:54:07< Sapient> shadowmaster: out of curiosity, what do you not like about Chatzilla w/ XULRunner ?
20100706 00:55:45< shadowmaster> I don't like Chatzilla. It just feels awkward to me. Stuff as simple as setting my server password and channel autojoin list turns out to be hidden behind a badly-crafted preferences dialog.
20100706 00:56:38< shadowmaster> those are also examples of settings that I change very frequently
20100706 00:57:43< Sapient> hmm... ok, you convinced me. trying xchat now
20100706 00:58:25< shadowmaster> I personally use irssi anyway. An that's even before I had to run a remote session.
20100706 01:00:00< Sapient> I'm just a little wary of downloading things that were compiled by a single individual with little legal accountability
20100706 01:00:28< shadowmaster> I'll never share my programs with you then.
20100706 01:00:31< shadowmaster> :P
20100706 01:00:50< Sapient> I am not planning to use Crab's libs. no offense
20100706 01:00:56< Sapient> I'm just a bit paranoid
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20100706 01:01:30< shadowmaster> Crab has libraries?
20100706 01:01:32< Sapient> Although I did use Yogi's libs I have met him in person ;)
20100706 01:07:59< Sapient> shadowmaster: Crab has kindly provided a bundle with external dependencies needed to build wesnoth for VC9 on windows
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20100706 01:13:40< Elvish_Pillager> AWESOME, i have turned WML that hangs for the clients and works fine for the host into WML that hangs for the host and doesn't work for the client but doesn't hang them
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20100706 01:14:10< Sapient> maybe after I build them independently I can check if the binary files differ and provide some kind of checksum
20100706 01:14:27< Sapient> that would help other paranoid Windows developers 
20100706 01:17:49< Sapient> Elvish_Pillager: sounds devious. what is the offending tag ?
20100706 01:18:12< Elvish_Pillager> Sapient: I think it might be me with [while] that never ends, not the code; I don't have a simple test case
20100706 01:19:08< Elvish_Pillager> I'm trying to work around the OOS involving advance=true by collecting all the units that need to advance until the end of the event, and then repeatedly triggering post advance events so that none of them ever advance except at the end of an event
20100706 01:20:28< Sapient> that all made sense until the "triggering post advance events" part
20100706 01:20:57< Sapient> how are you actually levelling them up?
20100706 01:21:25< Elvish_Pillager> basically, if two units need to advance, I [unstore_unit] advance=true one immediately and then make sure a post advance event triggers off that, and unstore/advance the other in that post advance event
20100706 01:22:49< Sapient> fascinating. but why not just avoid [unstore_unit] advance=true altogether?
20100706 01:23:02< Elvish_Pillager> then how would I advance them?
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20100706 01:23:56< Sapient> I posted a patch to the WC_NM thread that does something similar
20100706 01:24:10< AI0867> silene: testcase for my preprocessor issue: ai0867.net/hiden/preproctest.diff
20100706 01:24:54< Sapient> {VARIABLE_OP unit.advances_to rand "$unit.advances_to,$unit.advances_to"}
20100706 01:25:25< Sapient> then make a [unit]
20100706 01:25:32< CIA-87> gabba * r43944 /trunk/src/ (display.hpp whiteboard/manager.cpp): Whiteboard: visible numbering of actions.
20100706 01:25:46< Sapient> with type=$unit.advances_to
20100706 01:26:35< Sapient> it's a bit tedious if you want to carry all of the modifications forward to the next level, but it avoids the [unstore_unit] tag entirely
20100706 01:27:09< Elvish_Pillager> it also avoids the unit animation, and AMLA, and um...
20100706 01:27:56< Elvish_Pillager> and you'd have to manually trigger advance and post advance events, and you can't make a version of it that lets the player choose using the standard dialog if it's their turn
20100706 01:28:40< Sapient> true, well I never said it was pretty
20100706 01:29:41< Elvish_Pillager> I've currently made it just iterate through the units when the event ends, and [unstore_unit] advance=true each of them in a {FOREACH}
20100706 01:30:03< Elvish_Pillager> which should work as long as there are no post/advance events that interfere with each other
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20100706 01:30:50< Elvish_Pillager> actually it might work for everything, since the units still advance in the same order, and it's still at the end of the event...
20100706 01:31:13< Elvish_Pillager> this was kind of an anti-climactic solution to my hectic bug-hunting of the last half-hour...
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20100706 01:37:57< gabba> anyone knows how I could add PgUp/PgDown or some non-character key to hotkeys.cfg? Can I use key=<keycode>, and is there a list of the keycodes somewhere?
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20100706 02:27:46< CIA-87> eleazar * r43945 /trunk/data/core/ (16 files in 3 dirs): improved the color of dry hills to harmonize with other dry terrain better. Also removed misleading desert tile.
20100706 02:40:06< CIA-87> billynux * r43946 /trunk/src/ (15 files in 4 dirs): Unified sending procedures for clients and servers.
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20100706 02:45:59< billynux> Ivanovic, around? Wanted to ask you if my commits were unreasonably large
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20100706 04:05:26< CIA-87> eleazar * r43947 /trunk/ (13 files in 3 dirs): Added dark flagstones to mainline (now with transitions) from UtBS. Similar terrain still exists in UtBS.
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20100706 04:32:54< CIA-87> gabba * r43948 /trunk/ (7 files in 3 dirs): Whiteboard: hotkeys for bumping actions up and down the queue, not functional yet.
20100706 04:33:12< shadowmaster> aw, the dark tiles now have transitions
20100706 04:33:38 * shadowmaster ponders what to do with his own crappy transitions
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20100706 05:41:53< CIA-87> billynux * r43949 /trunk/src/ana/ (4 files in 3 dirs): Fixes a memory leak in ana.
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20100706 05:55:24< CIA-87> espreon * r43950 /trunk/data/core/terrain.cfg: Fixed a broken path.
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20100706 06:00:13< CIA-87> espreon * r43951 /trunk/utils/java/eclipse_plugin/ (10 files in 5 dirs): Ran umcpropfix.
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20100706 06:22:44< CIA-87> billynux * r43952 /trunk/src/ana/ (api/timers.hpp apps/chat/client.cpp): Fixes another memory leak in ana due to timers, memory usage may still be improved.
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20100706 06:41:17< CIA-87> billynux * r43953 /trunk/src/ (gui/widgets/settings.cpp network_manager_ana.cpp): Fixes a compilation issue with ana due to a removed method and updates an error message to inform about new option: --data-dir instead of -datadir.
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20100706 06:54:54< silene> AI0867: your preprocessor directives are eating two lines of text each, so everything goes wrong once you start using them
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20100706 08:09:56< Ivanovic> moin
20100706 08:10:25< Ivanovic> billynux: huh?
20100706 08:10:36< Ivanovic> billynux: why should they be unreasonably large?
20100706 08:12:06< Ivanovic> normaly each commit should work by itself, so that it is possible to rollback the commit without breaking other stuff
20100706 08:12:35< Espreon> Ivanovic: Grüß Gott.
20100706 08:13:34< Rhonda> Espreon: "update" in what sense?
20100706 08:14:20< Espreon> Rhonda: Eh, don't worry about it.
20100706 08:14:46< Espreon> ... for things have resolved themselves.
20100706 08:16:30< Espreon> Soliton: Same with you; don't worry about it.
20100706 08:17:59< Rhonda> Send unping, damnit :)
20100706 08:18:28< Rhonda> And yes, it wouldn't be "cool" if the gettext site would have to be manually updated.
20100706 08:18:36< Rhonda> or convenient, fwiw
20100706 08:19:35< Rhonda> http://alphabet.soup.io/post/63779279/
20100706 08:21:57< Espreon> Ic seo...
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20100706 08:27:32< Rhonda> seo?
20100706 08:29:16< Espreon> First-person singular indicative of "seon"
20100706 08:31:08 * Espreon wonders why Rhonda didn't ask about "ic"...
20100706 08:33:15-!- shadowm_laptop [ignacio@wesnoth/developer/shadowmaster] has quit [Quit: zzzz]
20100706 08:34:49< Rhonda> I thought that would be chatspeak for "I see"
20100706 08:35:19< Rhonda> But it didn't make sense in connection with Search Engine Optimization, which left me puzzled.
20100706 08:35:39< Rhonda> And what does "seon" mean? :)
20100706 08:35:43< Espreon> How the hell would that be chatspeak?
20100706 08:35:56< Espreon> "Seon" is "to see".
20100706 08:36:08< Rhonda> So what did you say?
20100706 08:36:11< Rhonda> Do you see it?
20100706 08:36:16< Espreon> Yes, I see it!
20100706 08:36:32< Espreon> But, no, I said "I see..."
20100706 08:36:53< Rhonda> Was auch immer.
20100706 08:37:15< Espreon> Uh.... no hablo alemán...
20100706 08:38:11< Espreon> Rhonda: Seriously, which language did you think I was using?
20100706 08:38:20< Rhonda> Keine Ahnung.
20100706 08:38:47< Rhonda> As said, I thought it would be chat speak, but it didn't make any sense, so …  :)
20100706 08:39:22 * Espreon rolls his eyes
20100706 08:39:30< Espreon> I was using Old English.
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20100706 08:41:04< Espreon> Silly Rhonda...
20100706 08:43:54< Rhonda> I don't speak old English, how should I know!
20100706 08:44:03< Espreon> Meh, I guess that I can forgive thee, for Old English and German are Western Germanic languages... so... yeahz...
20100706 08:44:11< Espreon> You just should!®
20100706 08:47:12< billynux> Ivanovic, I meant to ask if I was following commit rules. Because that particular commit was a bit large (many files)
20100706 08:47:45< Ivanovic> billynux: commits mainly depend on the people doing them
20100706 08:47:54< Ivanovic> that is: some structual changes are larger
20100706 08:48:16< Rhonda> Espreon: Shouldn't that rather be ™ instead?
20100706 08:48:19< billynux> ok, that was my point
20100706 08:48:22< Ivanovic> those using git tend to make one commit out of every functual change and commiting the result in one large batch
20100706 08:48:37< Ivanovic> but some changes are just large in themselves
20100706 08:49:29< Espreon> Rhonda: No, my sayings are registered with the authorities!
20100706 08:49:43< Rhonda> In svn I tend to commit in groups of things that belong together, and yes, that can grow large at times.
20100706 08:50:04< Rhonda> In git I regularly commit in smaller chunks - but only push when I'm finished with the bigger picture.
20100706 08:50:29< Rhonda> Espreon: But that catch phrase definitely is a ™ already.
20100706 08:50:49< Espreon> But, it's a registered trademark...
20100706 08:56:14 * Rhonda . o O ( svn commit -m "$(curl -s http://whatthecommit.com/ | grep \<p\> | cut -d\> -f2)" )
20100706 08:58:29< billynux> Rhonda, :D
20100706 08:58:45< billynux> some of them are... priceless
20100706 08:58:58< Rhonda> some of them are …  well known  %-/
20100706 08:59:16-!- silene [~plouf@wesnoth/developer/silene] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
20100706 08:59:20< Rhonda> The "." is a classic one.
20100706 09:01:42< billynux> "I don't get paid enough for this sh1t." -> classic 5am commit while to tell your wife that it doesn't matter her water broke, you just have to fix this "little" thing
20100706 09:02:32< billynux> man... humor doesn't come across the same way in different languages
20100706 09:03:03< Rhonda> Do you have kids?
20100706 09:03:24< billynux> nope
20100706 09:03:53< Rhonda> Go figure :P
20100706 09:04:47< billynux> was my comment offensive?
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20100706 09:13:56< ancestral> Hmm
20100706 09:14:11< ancestral> Reminds me of: http://xkcd.com/583/
20100706 09:14:53< billynux> I made a joke about that exact same xkcd today, I issued a CNR to a windows compile warning
20100706 09:15:01< billynux> which I couldn't reproduce
20100706 09:15:32< timotei> hmm... what's that?
20100706 09:15:39< timotei> . o O ( svn commit -m "$(curl -s http://whatthecommit.com/ | grep \<p\> | cut -d\> -f2)" )
20100706 09:16:16< billynux> check whatthecommit.com, and keep hitting f5 :)
20100706 09:16:50< timotei> oh :))
20100706 09:16:51< timotei> lol
20100706 09:18:32< Rhonda> timotei: a snippet to get commit messages
20100706 09:18:42< timotei> right, I'm on windows :(
20100706 09:18:53< Rhonda> So? cygwin FTW
20100706 09:19:02< timotei> no
20100706 09:19:05< Rhonda> yes
20100706 09:19:08< timotei> I get "sigterm" :))
20100706 09:19:22< Espreon> Byez.
20100706 09:19:24< timotei> whenever I try to "ls" or do something like that in the bash :(
20100706 09:19:25 * Espreon disappears...
20100706 09:19:26< timotei> bye E
20100706 09:19:28< timotei> bye Espreon 
20100706 09:19:29< billynux> bye
20100706 09:19:41< timotei> bye billynux 
20100706 09:19:47< billynux> I'm staying :)
20100706 09:19:52< timotei> oh, sorry, I thought you were leaving too :))
20100706 09:19:57< billynux> :)
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20100706 09:22:23< timotei> hm... I think I'll read more computer architecture+assembly before start working on the plugin
20100706 09:22:36< timotei> s/more/some
20100706 09:23:59< billynux> I'm dealing with endianness issues ATM too... sometimes variety isn't the merriest of ideas
20100706 09:24:23< timotei> :-)
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20100706 09:46:32< CIA-87> billynux * r43954 /trunk/src/ (6 files in 3 dirs): Ana now uses network byte order. There are still some issues with raw-data mode while connecting.
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20100706 09:54:23< billynux> Ok, now I'm off
20100706 09:54:33< billynux> bye y'all
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20100706 10:14:11< timotei> morning fendrin 
20100706 10:15:30< fendrin> timotei: hi timotei
20100706 10:17:10< timotei> about the multiplayer scenarios, [multiplayer] should I do a separate wizard, or in the normal "new scenario wizard" to put another option: Multiplayer, and if that option is selected, auxiliar multiplayer only settings to be available to be completed?
20100706 10:19:06< timotei> fendrin: an also, who/what are the multiplayer campaigns? Since I can't find any "multiplayer" settings in the [campaign] tag
20100706 10:19:59< fendrin> timotei: multiplayer campaigns are just scenarios that are defined inside a [multiplayer] tag instead of a [scenario] tag.
20100706 10:20:09< timotei> good
20100706 10:20:35< fendrin> the campaign creation dialog can support both types.
20100706 10:20:54< fendrin> That means three possibilities: single player campaign only
20100706 10:21:00< fendrin> multiplayer campaign only
20100706 10:21:03< fendrin> and both
20100706 10:21:07< timotei> yeah, there is already an option(checkbox) is the campaign is multiplayer
20100706 10:21:20< fendrin> meaning multiplayer and singleplayer campaign like LoW for example
20100706 10:21:25< timotei> so, about the upper question, what's the answer
20100706 10:22:21< fendrin> timotei: I would go for a base wizard that gets extended to a multiplayer or singleplayer(if there are singleplayer issues missing in multiplayer)
20100706 10:24:11< fendrin> you can present all common attributes (used in both types) on a first wizard page and the extensions needed for the concrete type on a second page.
20100706 10:24:18< timotei> yes
20100706 10:24:30< timotei> that's what I thought too
20100706 10:24:53< timotei> so, it would be nice if, when created the campaign, and based on the multiplayer: yes/no selection, when creating a new scenario to automatically enable that section of the wizard?
20100706 10:24:57< fendrin> But that are minor issues, feel free to do it how your own taste dictates it. :-)
20100706 10:26:03< fendrin> yes, that sounds like a good idea. There can be exceptions when a campaign designer only wants parts of his campaign being multiplayer (or singleplayer) but I think this can be coded manually if wanted.
20100706 10:28:00< fendrin> or you can preset the checkbox to the type of the campaign containing the scenario.
20100706 10:28:50< timotei> well, the campaign already has a checkbox: multiplayer, but that's used for now only in the pbl file
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20100706 10:38:58< fendrin> timotei: away, shower
20100706 10:39:02< timotei> ok
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20100706 11:24:57< fendrin> timotei: I am back for a few minutes. Then uni, will be back at 1900
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20100706 12:04:42< Ivanovic> esr, fendin, zookeeper: https://gna.org/bugs/index.php?16227
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20100706 13:45:10< AI0867> eleazar: another thing: the mainline rusty gate is not centered in the hex, so I now have several UMC who each have a centered gate and their own definition for the terrain
20100706 13:46:39< CIA-87> ai0867 * r43955 /branches/fendrin_pathfind/ (985 files in 71 dirs): Merge trunk up to r43954
20100706 13:53:48< timotei> hey Crab_ 
20100706 13:54:00< Crab_> hi, timotei
20100706 13:54:27< timotei> you know once we talked about the extra file(s) in the campaign project(for example)
20100706 13:54:40< timotei> right now .project is a must for the "eclipse projects"
20100706 13:54:57< timotei> now the "problem" is, I need some extra information stored per project
20100706 13:54:59< timotei> there are 2 ways:
20100706 13:55:13< timotei> 1 - simpler - extra file like: ".wesnoth" to store that
20100706 13:55:45< timotei> 2 - extend the default .project reader and add that custom information - this is "harder" because in terms of license and stuff like this
20100706 13:55:54< timotei> and
20100706 13:56:19< timotei> 3 - the extra info is stored per "workspace"
20100706 13:56:29< timotei> that is, eclipse's settings store
20100706 13:56:44< timotei> the first 2 are "cross-machine" independent, if you understand what I mean
20100706 13:56:47< timotei> the 3rd one not
20100706 13:56:54< timotei> what's your opiniong about that
20100706 13:57:20< timotei> do the UMC content need to be easily transfered between different ... machines? (in terms of eclipse projects)
20100706 13:57:26< timotei> zookeeper: ^
20100706 13:57:49< timotei> if you need any clarification please tell me as I may not given the right words
20100706 14:00:20< zookeeper> yes, it should be easy
20100706 14:00:21< AI0867> timotei: collaboration on UMC is common, though the usage of version control for it is unfortunately rather rare
20100706 14:00:41< Crab_> if you need per-project persistent info, you should use a file inside a project directory, so the users can, for example, store it in source control repository or transfer it..
20100706 14:00:48< AI0867> whether that would need to include metadata for eclipse is something I don't know
20100706 14:01:26< Crab_> .wesnoth seems simpler for me. of course, if you want to keep the wesnoth's 'style', you should make it use WML, not xml :)
20100706 14:02:18< timotei> I know there was a discussion about extra files, wouldn't that be a problem?
20100706 14:03:05< timotei> ok, I'll go then with the .wesnoth file
20100706 14:03:05< Crab_> it would be  a problem if there was a duplication of info between wesnoth's files and extra files
20100706 14:03:40< Crab_> if the info is not duplicated, I see no issues - both files would still be independently editable
20100706 14:03:41< timotei> I think It'll be XML for now, since I need just functionatllity, and then I'll convert it to wml style
20100706 14:05:18< timotei> ok, thanks guys
20100706 14:07:41< timotei> now, for the units wizard
20100706 14:07:42< timotei> :D
20100706 14:25:21< CIA-87> timotei * r43956 /trunk/utils/java/eclipse_plugin/ (13 files in 6 dirs): eclipse plugin: add multiplayer scenario options/template and do some cleanup in the wizards
20100706 14:25:40< CIA-87> timotei * r43957 /trunk/utils/java/eclipse_plugin/src/wesnoth_eclipse_plugin/wizards/ (3 files in 3 dirs): eclipse plugin: fix the titles of the wizards
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20100706 14:55:51< timotei> zookeeper: [units] tag, which forms an unit, what's the mandatory subtags?
20100706 14:55:57< timotei> [unit_type] only?
20100706 14:58:22< Crab_> timotei: can't this info be found from the schema.cfg ?
20100706 14:59:03< Crab_> timotei: from it, it seems that [units] can contain 0+ of  [movetype], [race], [trait], [unit_type]
20100706 15:00:05< AI0867> nothing mandatory
20100706 15:00:07< timotei> hmm, you're right, forgot about schema.cfg
20100706 15:00:19< AI0867> though you usually want something in there if you want to actually play the game
20100706 15:00:31< timotei> but since AI0867 didn't finish it I don't know that's the way it should be
20100706 15:00:46< timotei> though I'd had more trust in AI0867's schema.cfg than in the wiki :-)
20100706 15:08:35< AI0867> I'm not planning to finish it manually
20100706 15:08:45< timotei> :D
20100706 15:09:02< timotei> but how? scrapping through code comments?
20100706 15:13:04< AI0867> yes
20100706 15:13:08< AI0867> see the wikigrabber
20100706 15:16:40< zookeeper> timotei, in what kind of context does the units wizard appear? can you just "create a unit" without associating with any faction and era, or is it always tied to a faction/era wizard or editor?
20100706 15:17:10< timotei> well, for now the wizard(s) just create blank files with the required ... content
20100706 15:17:49< timotei> I'll be working for an "in-file" wizard version of those that need such thing (like factions in era files)
20100706 15:18:05< zookeeper> okay
20100706 15:18:08< timotei> so actually copying the resulting template (with values filled) in the file
20100706 15:19:09 * zookeeper wonders whether he should get eclipse and try it out
20100706 15:19:43< timotei> well, maybe after I'll finish the wizards (the basic ones)
20100706 15:20:09< timotei> anyway, the step-by-step documentation is already available at: utils/java/README.tex
20100706 15:20:19< timotei> (and there is a makefile too, to compile the pdf)
20100706 15:21:09< AI0867> debian stable still has an ancient version of eclipse
20100706 15:21:20< timotei> sabayon's too
20100706 15:21:27< AI0867> testing is reasonably up to date
20100706 15:21:45< timotei> what the???
20100706 15:21:50< AI0867> ?
20100706 15:22:04< timotei> my display just blanked black (music was still working) and then got back:|
20100706 15:22:17< AI0867> =S
20100706 15:22:24< timotei> the latest eclipse is 3.6 (helios)
20100706 15:22:56< AI0867> testing has 3.5.2
20100706 15:23:15< timotei> ganymede it's that afair
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20100706 15:30:25< freim> timotei: I've seen that happen with some nvidia-cards using DVI
20100706 15:30:41< timotei> I'm on an Intel GMA
20100706 15:30:51< freim> hmm, no idea then
20100706 15:31:10< timotei> I hate computers
20100706 15:31:18< timotei> when they go in an unknown way
20100706 15:31:26< freim> I had it happen several times a week on my previous nvidia-card, but only with some monitors, others worked fine
20100706 15:31:30< freim> nevber figured it out
20100706 15:31:36< freim> never*
20100706 15:32:01< timotei> well, I'm tired now for computer problems, since my notebook got bricked:|
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20100706 15:33:08< timotei> hmm, zookeeper at the unit wizard
20100706 15:33:14< AI0867> now I remember that back when I used windows, having the monitor black out for a second wasn't all that uncommon...
20100706 15:33:26< timotei> since there are only subtags, 
20100706 15:33:53< timotei> should I had something like a "list" where to add [unit_type]s [trait]s [movetype]s, etc?
20100706 15:34:01< timotei> I mean a list for every one
20100706 15:34:27< timotei> let me sketch it
20100706 15:34:32< zookeeper> not sure what you mean. of course one should be able to add all of those things somewhere
20100706 15:35:30< timotei> lol, even mspaint works stupid. I think I need to reinstall my windows
20100706 15:38:13< timotei> something about this: http://imagebin.org/104200
20100706 15:38:30< timotei> of course, with additional subtags that remain
20100706 15:38:57< AI0867> I guess this is the wizard?
20100706 15:39:08< timotei> yeah
20100706 15:39:19< zookeeper> well, i can't think of better ways to do it right now..
20100706 15:39:31< AI0867> you may want to move stuff around, but these are essentially the features you want
20100706 15:40:06< timotei> when pressing the button, a new window will pop up so you can fill that info in
20100706 15:40:13< CIA-87> ai0867 * r43958 /trunk/ (data/scenario-test.cfg src/serialization/preprocessor.cpp): Add #error and #warning directives to the preprocessor
20100706 15:40:14< timotei> AI0867: in which way to move stuff around?
20100706 15:40:44< CIA-87> ai0867 * r43959 /trunk/src/builder.cpp: Fix a deprecation warning and add a note about its future removal
20100706 15:42:57< AI0867> timotei: maybe put the three lists side by side
20100706 15:43:14< AI0867> not sure what you want to put in them, so I don't know how feasible that is
20100706 15:43:14< timotei> oh
20100706 15:43:27< timotei> well the design can be easily changed if we need to :-)
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20100706 17:03:41< CIA-87> eleazar * r43960 /trunk/data/core/ (413 files in 7 dirs): Massive putting away of terrain images into subfolders. Note this probably breaks things. The next commit should smooth everything out.
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20100706 17:50:33< norbert_> ehm
20100706 17:50:42< norbert_> I have a question
20100706 17:51:11< norbert_> I want to start working on this http://forum.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=30645
20100706 17:52:01< norbert_> in a nutshell, I want to expand the Wiki to contain a lot more answers to questions that are being asked on the forum
20100706 17:52:16< norbert_> and regroup everything here http://wiki.wesnoth.org/FAQ
20100706 17:52:36< norbert_> move all the Q&A's there to subcategories
20100706 17:53:12< norbert_> and my question is, do you folks want me to leave the FAQ in tact/as it is - and should I copy the content (for now), or can I start moving things around?
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20100706 17:59:10< norbert_> where is that Wiki page where folks introduce themselves?
20100706 18:00:03< Valkier> We have one of those?
20100706 18:00:15< norbert_> nm, found it http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SoC_People_to_bug_on_IRC
20100706 18:00:33< norbert_> so, who do I talk to about the Wiki
20100706 18:01:01< norbert_> or bots on the MP server, for that matter
20100706 18:01:13< norbert_> I'm short on feedback :)
20100706 18:01:30< Valkier> I'm not really sure.
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20100706 18:05:59< Crab_> norbert_: what do you need wrt the wiki ?
20100706 18:06:19< Crab_> norbert_: if it's technical, you can talk to me, if it's political, then find somebody else :)
20100706 18:06:32< norbert_> political
20100706 18:06:42< norbert_> always political :)
20100706 18:06:47< Crab_> :)
20100706 18:07:14< norbert_> it's about http://forum.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=30645
20100706 18:07:22< norbert_> I want to know if I can start moving things here http://wiki.wesnoth.org/FAQ
20100706 18:07:38< norbert_> or if that scares people and I should copy everything to my playground for now
20100706 18:08:03< norbert_> and also https://mail.gna.org/public/wesnoth-dev/2010-06/msg00005.html
20100706 18:08:05< eleazar> don't forget there are various links pointing to the wiki
20100706 18:08:28< norbert_> eleazar: yes, the URL http://wiki.wesnoth.org/FAQ would be the main page
20100706 18:08:38< norbert_> but I would create subcategories
20100706 18:08:40< eleazar> at least leave a notification of a moved page and link to find the new content location
20100706 18:09:06< eleazar> links pointing to specific parts of the wiki, i mean
20100706 18:09:37< norbert_> I understand what you mean; the FAQ is just one large page right now
20100706 18:09:52< norbert_> the <a name refs would disappear though
20100706 18:11:33< norbert_> zookeeper: what do you think of this idea http://forum.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=30645
20100706 18:11:56< norbert_> would you be willing to give certain answers on the Wiki?
20100706 18:12:00< norbert_> for example here http://forum.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?p=440660#p440660
20100706 18:12:13< norbert_> where you answer the question whether the turn limit can be turned off
20100706 18:12:42< norbert_> (to give a recent example)
20100706 18:13:00< norbert_> what I have in mind is a Q&A tree
20100706 18:13:20< zookeeper> norbert_, eh, i'd like to say yes, but in reality i'm pretty sure i wouldn't bother in the end.
20100706 18:14:23< noy> Its a good idea
20100706 18:14:40< norbert_> noy: :)
20100706 18:14:42< noy> Whether its in a Q&A tree, or just written in the Wiki 
20100706 18:14:50< noy> so that it can be searched
20100706 18:14:56< eleazar> the wiki does need some attention
20100706 18:15:01< noy> the only issue is that it needs to be continually updated
20100706 18:15:21< norbert_> yes, it would need to be updated; each Q&A would have to be dated ("added: ...")
20100706 18:15:30< zookeeper> the newbies who ask the usual questions likely won't read the FAQ anyway. it's a good idea to have a collection of links to previous threads about the usual questions, but writing stuff down in a FAQ form sounds a bit tedious.
20100706 18:15:34< noy> Just having everything there is nice, but you also need some way to have the information continually updated
20100706 18:15:57< noy> because as we see with JW's "how to play" series, stuff goes out of date fast.
20100706 18:15:58< norbert_> zookeeper: http://forum.wesnoth.org/download/file.php?id=42712&mode=view
20100706 18:16:00< noy> that takes manpower
20100706 18:16:08< norbert_> zookeeper: please see http://forum.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?p=440475#p440475
20100706 18:16:58< noy> norbert_: Yes, we get it, but the issue isn't simply getting it done
20100706 18:17:04< norbert_> it takes manpower, but we save time by pointing visitors to the Wiki, and simply by avoiding questions being answered
20100706 18:17:07< noy> who will be responsible for updated?
20100706 18:17:14< noy> for updating it?
20100706 18:17:35< norbert_> I think if people ask a question, we can look up the answer in the Wiki and check if it's still valid and then link to it
20100706 18:17:52< noy> I mean I know eleazar would love to have an army of artists working for him to make more beautiful terrain... its not going to happen. 
20100706 18:17:54< norbert_> so it would still take time, but maybe less and the answers would be more precise in the end
20100706 18:18:25< zookeeper> i already pretty often reply to a thread with just a link or two to previous similar threads
20100706 18:18:55< noy> Yeah and what happens when nobody works on it for like a year and alot of the answers are out of date? Its not really helpful then at all. 
20100706 18:19:06< zookeeper> if someone wants to write down the actual answers so i can copypaste them to replies, then fine, but they'll gonna fall out of date sooner or later.
20100706 18:19:15< noy> we can barely keep the forum FAQ up to date. 
20100706 18:19:44< noy> now we're going to be responsible for fifty times that responsibility? 
20100706 18:19:55< norbert_> but the FAQ may not be up to date because the usual thing is to point visitors to old forum threads instead of the Wiki; it's a change of mindset
20100706 18:20:16< noy> norbert_: No, you're skirting the question
20100706 18:20:50< norbert_> well, two suggestions
20100706 18:20:51< noy> We don't have people to update it currently
20100706 18:20:59< noy> And we can't magically create them. 
20100706 18:21:52< norbert_> first one is as follows
20100706 18:22:31< norbert_> I think that most Q&A's - correct me if I'm wrong - are about things that /if/ you give an answer and the person asking the question is content you succeeded
20100706 18:22:40< norbert_> for example, "I can't click anything"
20100706 18:23:24-!- elvish_sovereign [~Zoltan@pool-74-109-67-183.phlapa.east.verizon.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100706 18:23:26< norbert_> if the Q&A explains it is related to a library version; the person is either content (FAQ successful) or still unhappy because it didn't work (we're two years ahead in time, other problem, no longer the library)
20100706 18:23:49< norbert_> the FAQ could say: didn't work? ask us in this or that forum thread
20100706 18:24:21< noy> ...
20100706 18:24:24< norbert_> which means that either it worked and we don't need to touch it, or it didn't and the person with the question visits the forum and reminds us we need to update that Q&A
20100706 18:24:39< noy> Okay, since you just want to ignore everything I said and keep talking, I'm just going to ignore you. 
20100706 18:25:07< norbert_> I'm trying really hard to be as kind as possible and everything I wrote just now was me trying to answer your question
20100706 18:25:13< norbert_> I'm trying really hard, noy
20100706 18:25:20< norbert_> no joke
20100706 18:25:36< norbert_> I don't know what else to do
20100706 18:25:49< norbert_> I'm explaining to you how we deal with things being out of date after time
20100706 18:25:50< noy> I'm sure you are, you seem to just not get it
20100706 18:26:13< norbert_> then instead of deciding to ignore me, give me more instructions
20100706 18:26:40< noy> I've spent the last fifteen minutes explaining that this will take peoples' time to do. 
20100706 18:26:43< norbert_> I'm trying to help the Wesnoth project
20100706 18:26:51< norbert_> it's not my goal to mess with noy
20100706 18:27:04< norbert_> yes, it will take time
20100706 18:27:11< noy> So who will do it? 
20100706 18:27:19< noy> and the more important question
20100706 18:27:22< noy> who will maintain it?
20100706 18:27:23< norbert_> right now, we point to old forum threads and if the information there is out of date we type in information for the person asking the question
20100706 18:27:27< norbert_> that takes time
20100706 18:27:47< norbert_> if we change this into updating the Wiki and point to the Wiki, it would not take more time
20100706 18:27:52< noy> Yes, but it tends to give accurate information. And its not onerous because the information already exists
20100706 18:28:27< noy> Its not the same as having someone basically copy and refine the information in the forum (Or in the community), then keep renewing it.
20100706 18:28:56< norbert_> theoretically, let's assume that from now on we answer questions on the Wiki
20100706 18:29:15< norbert_> so, for example, zookeeper would have written this in the Wiki http://forum.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?p=440660#p440660
20100706 18:29:26< norbert_> obviously formulated a bit more generally
20100706 18:29:33< norbert_> he then links to that Q&A
20100706 18:29:45< noy> Or instead he could just say "do a forum search... its already been said"
20100706 18:29:56< norbert_> but that's not very user friendly
20100706 18:30:07< norbert_> and we could prevent the visitor from asking the question in the first place
20100706 18:30:17< norbert_> if there is a FAQ page with subcategories
20100706 18:30:25< norbert_> then people can help out themselves, which saves us time
20100706 18:30:35< noy> Yeah, that goes back to my original point: who is going to do all of this
20100706 18:30:38< CIA-87> eleazar * r43961 /trunk/data/core/ (453 files in 8 dirs): final step in cleaning up the terrain folder-- at least for now. Everything should work.
20100706 18:30:39< norbert_> and prevents the forum from being flooded with basically the same questions all the time
20100706 18:30:48< norbert_> we could all do this
20100706 18:31:07< norbert_> if someone asks a question and we think it might be asked again in the future, we could answer it on the Wiki
20100706 18:31:08< noy> There seems to be a constant thread whenever I talk to you. You have a "great idea" yet you don't really consider the human organization side of this. 
20100706 18:31:35< noy> Then I spend twenty minutes telling you the serious flaw in your view and you just ignore it and keep going.
20100706 18:31:40< norbert_> I think that all you see is pitfalls
20100706 18:31:55< noy> Great, go and do it norbert_ 
20100706 18:32:13< norbert_> I will
20100706 18:32:14< noy> And come back to me in two years and then we'll do an assessment. 
20100706 18:32:28< norbert_> but it needs teamwork
20100706 18:32:38< noy> norbert_: yeah, EXACTLY!
20100706 18:32:58< norbert_> it's like you think I finally see the light
20100706 18:33:02-!- billynux is now known as billynux-afk
20100706 18:33:03< norbert_> did you even read the thread
20100706 18:33:13< eleazar> is "Alink" and "AI0867" the same guy?
20100706 18:33:38< noy> I did. Teamwork means people going and doing what you think is right. I don't have time, most of us don't either.
20100706 18:34:06< noy> http://forum.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=11161
20100706 18:34:20< noy> Thats a perfect example of what I'm talking about.
20100706 18:34:41< noy> In reality its something you want in your Q&A 
20100706 18:34:55< noy> and yet, here it stands, four years later, incomplete and outdated. 
20100706 18:34:56< norbert_> no, it's not
20100706 18:35:09< noy> okay, ignore the parallel all you want
20100706 18:35:19< norbert_> I will, because it's not a Q&A
20100706 18:35:22< norbert_> it's a how to play
20100706 18:35:45< norbert_> I mean simpler things, like why can't I click anything
20100706 18:36:03< noy> So is your Q&A designed to inform a new player how to do something in the game?
20100706 18:36:08-!- Crab_ [~Crab@wesnoth/developer/crab] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org]
20100706 18:36:12< noy> that he doesn't know how to do?
20100706 18:36:17< norbert_> or, my fonts appear as rectangles
20100706 18:36:45< noy> norbert_: do whatever you want. 
20100706 18:36:50< noy> I really don't care. 
20100706 18:37:03< norbert_> yes, it is - but certain things, like 'click on this and that button and then scroll such and such'
20100706 18:37:21< norbert_> because these answer will work until someone comes along and writes 'I tried that, but it didn't work'
20100706 18:37:37< noy> if it works, good for you. If it doesn't, then we'll just have another unfinished, outdated thing on the server that shadowmaster or his replacement will have to purge
20100706 18:37:39< norbert_> then we know the Q&A might need to be updated or another related problem exists
20100706 18:38:04< norbert_> it's not "good for me"
20100706 18:38:13< norbert_> I'm trying to help the Wesnoth project
20100706 18:38:25< norbert_> and it's not a competition between me or 'the people who think it won't work'
20100706 18:38:37< norbert_> your attitude is a real problem
20100706 18:39:05< norbert_> and people can tell me I shouldn't go into that - make it personal - but it influences the way we communicate
20100706 18:39:52< norbert_> you either tell me you'll ignore me, tell me to do "whatever", that I don't do as you write, don't understand things, and so on
20100706 18:40:16< norbert_> it's not constructive in any way
20100706 18:41:03< noy> w
20100706 18:41:57< norbert_> anyways
20100706 18:42:19< norbert_> to all: okay if I start moving items in the FAQ to subcategories, or should I copy them (for now)?
20100706 18:43:41< noy> What's not constructive is the fact I'm raising a valid point. You just keep ignoring it. You still haven't explained how its going to be maintained. 
20100706 18:44:06< norbert_> I have and won't do it again
20100706 18:44:21< noy> No you haven't norbert_ 
20100706 18:51:50< Appleman1234> wow
20100706 18:52:17-!- alink [~alink@wesnoth/developer/alink] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100706 18:52:21< alink> hi
20100706 18:54:39< alink> eleazar: No, I don't think that we are the same guy, but you never know when schizophrenia hits you ;-p 
20100706 18:55:37< eleazar> i'll take your word for it ;)
20100706 18:57:05< Appleman1234> norbert_, what do you have in mind to automate the process ? or do you have a team of at least 5 dedicated q&a tree updaters ?
20100706 18:57:39< eleazar> alink: do you have a few minutes to talk about the ToD/color shifting stuff?
20100706 18:57:56< norbert_> Appleman1234: why at least 5, how about 4?
20100706 18:58:57< alink> eleazar: ok, btw i started a long reply to your last post but was interrupted
20100706 18:59:40< eleazar> heh
20100706 19:00:02< eleazar> maybe i'm trying to bite off too much at once
20100706 19:00:31< norbert_> it's exactly the same as noy keeps asking and I really have given the answer already
20100706 19:00:46< alink> eleazar: anyway, now, I wish to study more  the image cache code to see if color shift has an acceptable memory cost, because it's the cleanest way to do it
20100706 19:00:52< noy> You've never said you have anybody. 
20100706 19:01:00< noy> Do you have someone other than yourself?
20100706 19:01:16< Appleman1234> norbert_, I didn't see your answer in your post .....
20100706 19:01:29< norbert_> Appleman1234: how about the IRC backlog?
20100706 19:01:34< eleazar> alink: at the moment i'm sorta stuck between two paths, i don't know which to take
20100706 19:01:41< alink> eleazar: and the fact that the current cache waste a lot of memory make me think that it should be acceptable after optimization 
20100706 19:02:00< norbert_> Appleman1234: I'll try to explain it to you, so you don't have to scroll back
20100706 19:02:52< eleazar> If we ignore MoL and other moving sources of illumination, do you think it would be practical to color shift different parts of the map differently according to ToD areas?
20100706 19:02:55< norbert_> let's assume suddenly someone notices that he or she can't click on anything in the game
20100706 19:03:20< eleazar> alink:  with the assumption that there would not be a transition
20100706 19:03:24< norbert_> this person will look for answers at wesnoth.org and find nothing, because this is a new issue
20100706 19:03:31< norbert_> it's related to a library on Ubuntu
20100706 19:03:33< alink> eleazar: first I decided to ignore MoL for the moment
20100706 19:03:49< norbert_> there is an on-line FAQ, but it contains no help for this particular problem
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20100706 19:04:03< alink> eleazar: secondly, overlay has flaws: it really has a blitting cost (I checked) and really need to kill foreground terrain to work
20100706 19:04:07< norbert_> the person visits the forum and asks: I can't click on anything, what should I do?
20100706 19:04:24< norbert_> now, normally, someone would invest a bit of energy to answer that question on the forum
20100706 19:04:28-!- eleazar [~eleazar@ppp-70-226-197-86.dsl.spfdil.ameritech.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
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20100706 19:04:37< norbert_> could be anyone, let's assume it's you, Appleman1234
20100706 19:04:44-!- eleazar [~eleazar@ppp-70-226-197-86.dsl.spfdil.ameritech.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100706 19:04:47< norbert_> you write: "This is related to SDL version x and you should ..."
20100706 19:04:55< eleazar> alink: sorry about that
20100706 19:05:01< alink> <alink> eleazar: secondly, overlay has flaws: it really has a blitting cost (I checked) and really need to kill foreground terrain to work
20100706 19:05:13< norbert_> the person who asked the question plays Wesnoth happily ever after
20100706 19:05:26< norbert_> another person visits the forum and asks the same question
20100706 19:05:44< norbert_> someone tells that person: "was already answered, see this or that thread"
20100706 19:05:51< alink> eleazar: and yes I think that color-shift may be ok
20100706 19:05:59< eleazar> alink: i'd prefer not to use overlays, but they seemed the quickest, easiest way to procceed, so i had to try
20100706 19:06:00< norbert_> now, let's see how it would go with the Wiki thing
20100706 19:06:11< norbert_> the person with the question still visits the forum
20100706 19:06:15< alink> eleazar: maybe even with transitions
20100706 19:06:22< norbert_> you, Appleman1234, answer the question on the Wiki
20100706 19:06:23< alink> eleazar: but not sure yet
20100706 19:06:41< norbert_> this is about the same amount of work, because you still have to write "This is related to SDL version x and you should ..."
20100706 19:06:42< alink> eleazar: at least, transitions will be hard
20100706 19:06:53< eleazar> Is this the likelyest place to start? "I realize now that it should be easy to disable the ToD color shifting in some ToD areas (the untouched images are already in memory)"
20100706 19:06:59< norbert_> on the forum, you post a link to that Q&A in the Wiki
20100706 19:07:10< norbert_> person who asked the question is happy
20100706 19:07:35< alink> eleazar: Yes it's an easy start to see how it looks and any area ToD code will be there
20100706 19:07:35< norbert_> next person visits with the same question, but he or she sees http://forum.wesnoth.org/download/file.php?id=42712&mode=view
20100706 19:07:52< alink> eleazar: but the meat of work is in image cache
20100706 19:08:05< norbert_> either this person finds your answer and yes now Wesnoth works fine or...
20100706 19:08:16< norbert_> ...the solution didn't work.
20100706 19:08:21< Appleman1234> norbert_, I have read the backlog twice, and didn't see it, I understand the concept, however I have some questions regarding the implementation and logistics 
20100706 19:08:41< norbert_> if it worked, this person didn't have to visit the forum, we didnt' have to answer the question, and no other thread with the same question
20100706 19:08:55< norbert_> if it didn't work, this person is not happy yet and visits the forum
20100706 19:09:00< alink> eleazar: ok I quickly try that ToD disabling today and will continue to study image cache stuff after that
20100706 19:09:11< norbert_> the person writes "I tried that thing, but my mouse still won't click anything"
20100706 19:09:29< norbert_> now the Wiki needs to be updated and anyone can do this and once again point to the Wiki
20100706 19:09:33< eleazar> alink: OK, then i'll leave the cave terrains artificially dark for now
20100706 19:09:49< norbert_> if the answer was in a forum thread, we couldn't point to the old answer either, because apparently that solution no longer works
20100706 19:10:15< eleazar> Even if that's all that can be done, it would be an improvement on mixed maps
20100706 19:10:21< norbert_> same effort, but less people asking the same questions, less threads about the same things, and the answers on the Wiki - in time - will be very detailed and thorough
20100706 19:10:25-!- Unnheulu [~ieuan@cpc5-pnth2-0-0-cust800.5-2.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100706 19:10:36< norbert_> so, if we would change our mindsets
20100706 19:10:38< Unnheulu> How long till wesnoth is expected to be rewritten in python?
20100706 19:11:14< norbert_> and start answering questions on the Wiki - not just 5 people, but everyone who answers questions - (almost) no more work and a very nice Q&A tree for all the Wesnoth fans
20100706 19:11:22< alink> eleazar: yeah, I suggest to wait a little before starting retouching images. I'll get back with more info soon, but feel free to nag me if am too slow ;)
20100706 19:11:50< norbert_> so the Q&A's in the Wiki should be of the type that if they are out of date, we'll hear about it
20100706 19:11:51< eleazar> alink: great :)  I'm really happy to see some progress in this area
20100706 19:12:00< norbert_> no need to go through all of them all the time
20100706 19:12:02< Unnheulu> Is work on the python port expected to start soon?
20100706 19:12:12< Appleman1234> norbert_, is that your explanation finished ?
20100706 19:12:19< norbert_> and there shouldn't be just 5 people working on it, nobody should and at the same time all of us
20100706 19:12:27< norbert_> Appleman1234: yes, finished
20100706 19:12:29< alink> eleazar: there is no progress yet. but at least I already spotted various bugs in this area :-)
20100706 19:12:43< Unnheulu> Ooh...eleazar...your art is soooo cool
20100706 19:13:01< eleazar> a coder planning and thinking about  doing something is  progress
20100706 19:13:09< Unnheulu> Although something in svn causes wesnoth to lag and I'm wondering if its the water?
20100706 19:13:35< eleazar> Unnheulu: the water does slow things down, you can turn off animation in the preferences
20100706 19:13:41< eleazar> also, thanks ;)
20100706 19:13:46< alink> Unnheulu: I wouldn't put any hope in a python port
20100706 19:14:01< Unnheulu> alink: I was just kidding, read the #wesnoth logs ;)
20100706 19:15:24< alink> Unnheulu: ok, funny (but a bit old) joke
20100706 19:15:37< norbert_> Appleman1234: so, what do you think? :P
20100706 19:15:40< Unnheulu> alink: is it?
20100706 19:15:41< Unnheulu> Bah
20100706 19:15:57 * eleazar goes to eat lunch
20100706 19:16:08< alink> Unnheulu: also, do you know/remember that we supported python AI in the past ?
20100706 19:16:51< Appleman1234> norbert_, just a moment, my system is under heavy load at present, and I am still rereading what you wrote
20100706 19:17:06< Unnheulu> alink: yeah
20100706 19:17:44< Unnheulu> eleazar: thought you were having lunch? :P
20100706 19:19:26-!- stikonas [~and@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
20100706 19:24:03< Appleman1234> norbert_, firstly I don't understand the forum link you posted as it is a png, and it doesn't display in links, I had a graphical browser running but I had to close it to increase my system's response time, in order to reply to you 
20100706 19:25:01< norbert_> Appleman1234: it was an image of the forum with "IMPORTANT: If you have a question, visit the _Q&A tree_ first!"
20100706 19:25:19< norbert_> in large, red letters, on top of the page
20100706 19:25:56< Unnheulu> It's norbert!
20100706 19:25:58< Unnheulu> Hai
20100706 19:26:03< Appleman1234> norbert_, regarding that particular example, I and several other wesnoth users had that problem or similar problems, except we don't have Ubuntu , so the underlying cause and solution to the problem was a different one to either solutions listed in the forums or on the wiki 
20100706 19:26:09< norbert_> Unnheulu, hi
20100706 19:26:43< norbert_> Appleman1234: okay, that's possible; was just an example
20100706 19:28:23< Appleman1234> norbert_, I realise it is only an example, what I am saying is that in order to cover all bases Q&A wise you need to have more information about the problem and system it effects before you attempt to provide a simple solution
20100706 19:29:05< norbert_> well, any solution that works better than not is welcome
20100706 19:29:31< norbert_> so as with the forum, the Wiki page could say "We're looking into this, for now press Ctrl-F to go to fullscreen" (or something)
20100706 19:29:58< norbert_> but that is of course debatable
20100706 19:30:22< alink> silene: btw thanks to have reviewed my patch 
20100706 19:31:46< Appleman1234> norbert_, so instead of having either a software solution or a social dedicated team of wiki q&a people, we would need to have a reeducation drive just to migrate information from one platform to another ...
20100706 19:31:57< norbert_> yes
20100706 19:33:06< alink> wesbot: bug #16230
20100706 19:33:07< wesbot> Bug #16230  Assigned to: None  Status: None  Priority: 5 - Normal
20100706 19:33:07< wesbot> Summary: Editors: "Refresh Image Cache" has become buggy.
20100706 19:33:07< wesbot> Original submission: When making terrain i use "Refresh Image Cache" all the t
20100706 19:33:10< wesbot> ime, it saves me a ton of time, and allows me to do higher quality work.Howe
20100706 19:33:13< wesbot> URL: https://gna.org/bugs/?16230
20100706 19:33:22< Appleman1234> norbert_, you made certain assumptions in your re-explanation that I don't get, first you assume that when people have a problem with Wesnoth, their immediate course of action is to make a forum post about why it doesn't work 
20100706 19:33:39< Appleman1234> norbert_, or that it doesn't work
20100706 19:33:54< norbert_> this could be mentioned under each Q&A
20100706 19:34:10< norbert_> if they have additional questions or something didn't work, and then point to the correct thread
20100706 19:34:14< norbert_> *thread->board
20100706 19:35:32< norbert_> they would probably visit the Support or Forums sections first
20100706 19:35:46< norbert_> but Support also quickly leads people to the forum
20100706 19:35:55< Appleman1234> :S
20100706 19:36:11< norbert_> Yes, this is a somewhat related issue. Someone looking for help who is visiting the main website page might click "Forums" or "Support". It would not surprise me when a lot of people avoid the Wiki Resources because it gives them the feeling of 'getting lost' (into specifics). They may not even understand what a Wiki is or think that the Wiki Resources only have general guides that won't answer their questions. Either way, they will scr
20100706 19:36:11< norbert_> oll down past the Reporting Bugs section - because they have a question, not a bug - and go to the "Forums".
20100706 19:36:43< Appleman1234> you can't assume that about users
20100706 19:37:15< norbert_> the other possibilities make it even more useful to use the Wiki instead of the forum
20100706 19:37:20< norbert_> because the forum links to the Wiki
20100706 19:37:24< Appleman1234> what problem are you trying to solve with a reeducation drive to turn the wesnoth community from a forum based one to a wiki based one ?
20100706 19:37:36< norbert_> and if people don't visit the forum, they can visit any other location including the Wiki
20100706 19:37:52< norbert_> well, the forum is very useful
20100706 19:38:12< Appleman1234> either your q&a system supplements the existing workflow of the community or it replaces it
20100706 19:38:23< norbert_> it's just that if certain questions would be answered on the Wiki, this would make things easier for the users and the moderators/frequent visitors
20100706 19:38:59< Appleman1234> why only certain questions ?
20100706 19:39:00< norbert_> less threads about the same things, fewer people asking the same questions, answers that over time will become very detailed, and a nice Q&A tree for users to browse and learn
20100706 19:39:29< Appleman1234> norbert_, if you make this q&a tree, how does that gurantee less threads about the same thing
20100706 19:39:58< norbert_> no questions that are either bound to become out-of-date fast/soon or questions that if they do ever because out-of-date appear to be valid to the visitor even though things have changed
20100706 19:39:58< Appleman1234> you just get more threads of the same thing with the reply, see this page of the q&a tree on the wiki
20100706 19:40:27< norbert_> because there will be that large, red text on the top of the main forum page
20100706 19:40:35< norbert_> "IMPORTANT: If you have a question, visit the _Q&A tree_ first!"
20100706 19:40:56< norbert_> which also means that all other similar pointers can be removed
20100706 19:41:11< norbert_> because the Q&A tree will, for example, contain a section about the iPhone/iPod
20100706 19:41:29< Appleman1234> norbert_, just because you have a big red sign doesn't mean you have a total reeducation plan ....
20100706 19:41:37< norbert_> and there it says that if the question wasn't answered in that subcategory, the right place to ask questions related to the iPhone/iPod would be... and so on
20100706 19:42:08< norbert_> it does not, but more people will be visiting the Wiki
20100706 19:42:22< norbert_> and that just one part of how I believe this Wiki thing would improve things
20100706 19:42:28< norbert_> 9other things mentioned earlier)
20100706 19:42:36< norbert_> :%s/9other/other/g
20100706 19:42:58< norbert_> the big red sign really is pretty big in the png :)
20100706 19:43:06< norbert_> I don't think anyone could miss it
20100706 19:43:43< Appleman1234> norbert_, once again you are assuming that users care for big red signs, aren't colourblind and aren't dyslexic 
20100706 19:43:45< norbert_> and even if they do, that's fine, because instead of linking to an old thread, it's just a link to the Wiki
20100706 19:43:52< norbert_> the sign is a detail
20100706 19:44:36< Appleman1234> norbert_, can I ask my questions now ?
20100706 19:44:50< alink> eleazar: ToD masks seems to work with basic ToD areas (see cave in test-scenario). I still wish to kill that feature, but at least I must not bugfix it again
20100706 19:44:59< norbert_> I wasn't aware that I was preventing you from asking any questions
20100706 19:45:12< norbert_> feel free to ask any questions now
20100706 19:45:22< norbert_> :)
20100706 19:45:39< alink> eleazar: maybe not with illuminated stuff, checking
20100706 19:45:57< eleazar> alink: did you change ToD mask?  it didn't work for me
20100706 19:45:57< Appleman1234> norbert_, currently whenever I try to ask a question, I get a statement of well if I just do this to the q&a system then that deals with that statement / question 
20100706 19:47:15< alink> eleazar: yes seems to work for both method to add ToD areas (in [event] and top level)
20100706 19:48:05< alink> eleazar: seems to ignore illuminate, though, but I don't know yet how this stuff works
20100706 19:48:54< eleazar> but why are you testing that?  i thought you considered color-shifting the better route?
20100706 19:49:52< alink> eleazar: 2 reasons, (1)possibly easily fix a bug, (2) easily check that engine already use the good ToD data
20100706 19:50:21< eleazar> do you want me to upload my tod overlay masks?
20100706 19:50:47< alink> no need i use fog1.png and sand.png for my dirty debug test :-)
20100706 19:51:23< eleazar> heh-- thats OK, as long as i don't have to look at that
20100706 19:51:45< alink> yeah it's very ugly
20100706 19:51:52< Appleman1234> norbert_, I started writing my questions down in a text file, and hence will respond to your original post on the forums, just because at present that is easier
20100706 19:51:52< norbert_> Appleman1234: you can ask your question and I won't interrupt
20100706 19:52:06< norbert_> okay, sure
20100706 19:52:06< alink> but note that "foggy day" make sense for a ToD 
20100706 19:53:35< alink> [illuminated_time] is still a tag ignored by c++ code and still in schedules.cfg
20100706 19:54:00< alink> but I'll scrap it later, could be a good idea
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20100706 19:57:18< alink> eleazar: sry, terrain ToD variants are broken probably since a long time. It's sad because they probably cost a little loading time even if not used. I will also check that later
20100706 19:59:34< alink> correction: maybe they work but not for ToD areas
20100706 20:00:59< eleazar> alink: Hmm, ToD masking *does* respect ToD areas-- not sure why i didn't see it before
20100706 20:01:50< alink> eleazar: perhaps because you used nice (but too subtile) overlays instead of using ugly debug images ;-p 
20100706 20:02:55< alink> I always use flashy stuff to hunt bugs, sometimes you spot them only when doing so
20100706 20:03:48< eleazar> i think i used an old Save, which would have the schedual built into the save
20100706 20:04:47< eleazar> and as you say, my test overlays were close enough that i wasn't sure which i was seeing
20100706 20:09:39< alink> and masks ignore illumination. I remember now that it was for performance reasons (nobody use ToD masks and check each frame for every tile if there is a MoL around was expensive)
20100706 20:16:46-!- Unnheulu [~ieuan@cpc5-pnth2-0-0-cust800.5-2.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal]
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20100706 20:28:04< norbert_> gotta go, Dutch are about to play
20100706 20:28:12< norbert_> (soccer; world cup)
20100706 20:28:13-!- norbert_ [~norbert@82-171-70-54.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
20100706 20:28:24< Unnheulu> Bah
20100706 20:28:29< Unnheulu> Who watches the world cup?
20100706 20:28:41< Unnheulu> real people watch wimbledon and le tour de france
20100706 20:30:55< alink> mmmh I suppose that we agree that if ToD start to be more visible, then they should be visible in editor too
20100706 20:31:10< Gambit> I hope the dutch... play well...
20100706 20:31:35< alink> but not sure how this will work will WML data, and if/how to edit it 
20100706 20:31:42< Gambit> Wait that's danish. Joke trashed. (bye now)
20100706 20:31:43< alink> s/will/with
20100706 20:38:51-!- mordante [~mordante@wesnoth/developer/mordante] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100706 20:39:02< mordante> servus
20100706 20:39:08< alink> hi mordante
20100706 20:39:18< mordante> hi alink 
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20100706 20:42:15< noy> hey mordante 
20100706 20:44:35< mordante> hi noy 
20100706 20:44:52< mordante> billynux-afk, regarding large commits when it's needed it's needed
20100706 20:45:11< mordante> billynux-afk, I generally try to do one thing per commit and with git-svn that's easier
20100706 20:45:25< mordante> billynux-afk, both other people like larger commits
20100706 20:46:13< alink> does the "special" category in editor is expected to be to place to future editor features? There is fog(broken) and shroud.
20100706 20:47:01< Ivanovic> alink: sounds like some "special things that fit nowhere else" category to me
20100706 20:47:03< Ivanovic> ;)
20100706 20:48:13< alink> Ivanovic: yeah but my point was : it's not terrain data, so that means that we already expect to save more data than terrain only in editor
20100706 20:50:02-!- ancestral [~ancestral@12.145.225.25] has quit [Quit: i go sleeps kthxbai]
20100706 20:50:45< alink> asking because ToD areas support in editor is somehow similar to ToD areas support
20100706 20:50:55< alink> *fog/shroud
20100706 20:51:18< alink> I means it's a similar WML problem
20100706 20:55:52< mordante> billynux-afk, I see you fixed the byte order only I don't think this is a portable solution, if the system is big endian things go wrong
20100706 20:56:18< mordante> billynux-afk, doesn't boost have something to do it portable in asio?
20100706 20:59:08< eleazar> alink: the map doesn't contains ToD areas does it?
20100706 20:59:42< alink> eleazar: not the map data, it's scenario WML
20100706 21:00:24< alink> eleazar: same for fog/shroud, which is even team specific 
20100706 21:00:25< eleazar> though some terrains, lava, and cave beam currently have lighting fx
20100706 21:00:52< alink> eleazar: yeah, good point, I should check how this work
20100706 21:01:25< eleazar> i wonder how many people realize that lava is a lit terrain
20100706 21:01:55< noy> eleazar: I think that sight discussion in XP should be moved to Ideas
20100706 21:02:10< noy> because its something that would be better discussed in the normal forums
20100706 21:02:21< alink> ok it's an illuminated terrain, not a pure ToD area
20100706 21:02:30< eleazar> noy: you think is has some merit?
20100706 21:02:59< noy> I think it does... the question is how to keep it simple but more realistic...
20100706 21:03:20< noy> because you can throw a lot of exceptions in very quickly if you're not careful
20100706 21:03:41< noy> and to be honest I don't think its going to get a good shake in XP 
20100706 21:04:08< eleazar> yeah, many of the posts were proposing increasingly elaborate ideas
20100706 21:04:23< eleazar> actually i think there is a duplicate thread in ideas already
20100706 21:04:23< noy> thats my issue
20100706 21:04:32< noy> Well maybe start a new one. 
20100706 21:04:45< noy> Or something... I think the clear point is to make it easier
20100706 21:04:49< noy> err simpler
20100706 21:04:51< eleazar> or start one in "developers discusion"
20100706 21:04:54< noy> Sure
20100706 21:04:59< eleazar> if you want to shut out some noise
20100706 21:05:11< noy> my main point would be to say that its still movement defined
20100706 21:05:27< noy> so that there is one constraint on making it simpler
20100706 21:05:40< noy> or keeping it simpler
20100706 21:06:06< noy> I've got to go though...
20100706 21:06:26< noy> But its definately something we should look into
20100706 21:06:32< eleazar> cool
20100706 21:08:53-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has quit [Quit: GO, GET TO THE CHOPPAH!!!]
20100706 21:09:22< alink> eleazar: thanks I was not aware of this "light" key in terrain
20100706 21:09:39< alink> it can even be used to make "dark" terrain
20100706 21:10:02< alink> I wonder if some cave terrain type could use it
20100706 21:10:24< eleazar> yeah, there's been talk about doing a mirkwood type forest
20100706 21:12:19-!- Blarumyrran [~Blarumyrr@unaffiliated/blarumyrran] has quit [Quit: Lahkun]
20100706 21:12:19< alink> if done we should improve how illumination/light works 
20100706 21:12:46< eleazar> yeah, it's kinda a mess now isnt' it?
20100706 21:13:10< billynux-afk> mordante, ping
20100706 21:13:23< alink> well the light overlay in sidebar is a bit messy, but it was worse before
20100706 21:13:53< alink> eleazar: the mix with static and dynamic illumination is also a small problem
20100706 21:14:26< alink> btw, crazy idea but, seeing how it works for underground, the ToD sidebar image should be an overlay of terrain with a ToD background
20100706 21:15:09< eleazar> explain further?
20100706 21:15:37< alink> like forest with sun behind on forest tile, but hills with sun on hill tile
20100706 21:15:51< alink> with a possible color shift of the terrain image
20100706 21:16:05< mordante> billynux-afk, pong
20100706 21:16:10< alink> and make the illumination change this color shift instead of overlaying an aura
20100706 21:16:47< billynux-afk> mordante, yes, solution is not portable
20100706 21:16:53-!- billynux-afk is now known as billynux
20100706 21:17:08< alink> eleazar: not sure how that looks, and a lot to draw :-/
20100706 21:17:41< mordante> billynux, yup and Wesnoth is used on big endian machines
20100706 21:17:41< billynux> mordante, I was trying to see if that would convert it to the right byte order, I haven't been able to find this in boost
20100706 21:18:18< billynux> mordante, well, data serialization should be an application problem (i.e. not network)
20100706 21:18:42< billynux> mordante, but the header that says how many bytes are coming is important (ang should be in network byte ord.)
20100706 21:18:58< mordante> billynux, I know POSIX has htonl and friends but not sure how portable that is (Windows)
20100706 21:19:17< eleazar> alink: that would emphasize the fact that ToD is location dependant
20100706 21:19:28< alink> eleazar: that could also be used to replace the terrain info text
20100706 21:19:29< billynux> mordante, exactly, STL doesn't have anything?
20100706 21:19:36< alink> eleazar: yes indeed
20100706 21:19:49< mordante> billynux, do you know it's currently done with SDL 
20100706 21:20:09< billynux> mordante, The write32 method/ 
20100706 21:20:10< mordante> AFAIK the STL has nothing for it
20100706 21:22:50< billynux> mordante, Is this method the write32 I mention?
20100706 21:22:51< alink> eleazar: that would also provide a sort of nice "camera view". Move the mouse on a keep and see a nice sunset behind a big castle in that little window
20100706 21:23:12< mordante> billynux, ?
20100706 21:23:32< billynux> mordante, you said it's currently done with SDL
20100706 21:23:52< mordante> yes that might be the write32 method
20100706 21:24:12< billynux> mordante, It's SDLNet_Write32
20100706 21:25:15< billynux> mordante, 1-Check the code there? (and/or copy), 2- Use it directly? (Still depends on SDLNet)
20100706 21:25:40< mordante> billynux, I only wonder why you have to do it manually I assume SDL puts a 32 byte int on the network and boost asio should be able to get it normally
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20100706 21:27:47< mordante> billynux, if needed we can copy use the SDL code, but I like to look first whether it's really needed
20100706 21:28:22< billynux> mordante, I should probably modify the serialization module, setting options there...
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20100706 21:29:02< billynux> mordante, you can look at asio_listener.cpp:95
20100706 21:30:03< mordante> I'll have a look
20100706 21:30:05< billynux> I could do something like: input >> serializer::network_order >> size;  (like iomanip does with std::setw( width )
20100706 21:31:17< billynux> mordante, my main problem right now is not that (which it's just minor refactoring) but dealing with raw-mode vs. header-mode and the thread running the io_service object
20100706 21:32:06< billynux> mordante, for that, you can look at network_manager_ana.cpp:347
20100706 21:36:23< billynux> different versions, the line I refer to is client->set_header_first_mode(); ... and previous calls to client->run();
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20100706 21:42:28< billynux> mordante, even in boost's examples they don't appear to have something to do the conversion: http://www.boost.org/doc/libs/1_37_0/doc/html/boost_asio/example/socks4/socks4.hpp ->  port_high_byte_ = (port >> 8) & 0xff;
20100706 21:45:27< billynux> brb, 15'
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20100706 21:47:57-!- gabba [~gabba@wesnoth/developer/gabba] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100706 21:48:28< gabba> bonjour
20100706 21:55:15-!- [Relic] [~relic@99-58-54-211.lightspeed.milwwi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100706 21:56:27< mordante> billynux, I see odd that boost doesn't handle it better
20100706 21:56:27< [Relic]> Hello :)
20100706 21:56:31< mordante> hi [Relic] 
20100706 21:56:48< mordante> billynux, what do you want me to look at in that code?
20100706 21:58:34< billynux> mordante, well... I need to improve this raw-mode / header-mode and the thread running the io_service
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20100706 21:59:17< billynux> mordante, the poin being: Handshake goes 1- (raw-mode) I send a 0, 2 - I receive a 32 bit ID number, 3- Normal communication begins (header-mode)
20100706 22:00:39< billynux> I shouldn't start the connection timer myself, it should use the client's timeout settings (minor issue)
20100706 22:01:52< mordante> hmm
20100706 22:03:35< mordante> maybe do the translation safer read the data from the buffer byte by byte and then shift them
20100706 22:03:54< billynux> mordante, this isn't a problem ATM
20100706 22:03:55< mordante> that should work since C++ doesn't care about endianess
20100706 22:04:22< mordante> sorry but what's then the exact problem (guess I missed something)
20100706 22:04:48< billynux> the wait_raw_object reads the 4 bytes just fine
20100706 22:05:20< billynux> the thing is: I need to improve ana in order to allow for a better raw-mode
20100706 22:05:42< billynux> I suggest that it work in a synchronous way
20100706 22:06:56< billynux> the other problem (wha'ts keeping me from normal communication to wesnoth's servers) is that when I put it in header-mode somehow it gets to read the header (the server sends 33 bytes)
20100706 22:07:11< billynux> but not the rest of the message
20100706 22:07:29< mordante> is it easy to switch between sync and async mode?
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20100706 22:07:53< mordante> which read function do you use that only reads 33 bytes?
20100706 22:07:59< billynux> yes, but it's not working properly... 
20100706 22:08:19-!- shadowm_laptop [ignacio@wesnoth/developer/shadowmaster] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100706 22:08:31< gabba> Repeating (and updating in multiple files) typedefs is annoying, and I do want to keep my include tree small. Anybody has a good solution in mind? Maybe have a typedefs.hpp in the whiteboard that gets included by every .hpp file?
20100706 22:08:33< billynux> to switch you should call set_raw_data_mode()
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20100706 22:08:56< billynux> mordante, no such function, the asio_listener handles this automatically
20100706 22:09:13< billynux> it reads the header containing the amount of bytes left
20100706 22:09:40< billynux> and then reads said bytes, only after this is done, it informs of the application that a message has arrived
20100706 22:10:06< billynux> mordante, I'll reconnect in 5', gotta change location, I'll catch up with the logs then...
20100706 22:10:22< billynux> you can look at this to see if you have any suggestions as to how to fix it
20100706 22:11:08< billynux> I'm guessing a different implementation on asio_client::run, or using an io_service::work object to forbid the io_service running thread to stop
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20100706 22:11:54< CIA-87> alink * r43962 /trunk/src/ (display.cpp display.hpp game_display.cpp game_display.hpp): 
20100706 22:11:54< CIA-87> Fix local ToD terrain variants (assuming they even work for global ToD).
20100706 22:11:54< CIA-87> Use virtual function because not sure yet if editor will need a tod_manager.
20100706 22:11:54< CIA-87> Also move up ToD masks from game_display to display, even if that feature should be killed.
20100706 22:12:28< mordante> gabba, yes you can do that, besides retyping typedefs kind of defeats the purpose ;-)
20100706 22:13:18< gabba> mordante: ok, my only hesitation is because any change to the typedefs.hpp is gonna cause the whole whiteboard and anything that includes any of my .hpp files to recompile
20100706 22:14:06< mordante> gabba, true but I assume once wb is stable the typedefs won't change that often
20100706 22:14:16< alink> such change should be rare (no code there)
20100706 22:14:20< mordante> gabba, at least less often as unit.hpp or display.hpp
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20100706 22:14:27< gabba> true
20100706 22:15:04< mordante> billynux does it read until eof before returning the message/
20100706 22:15:06< mordante> ?*
20100706 22:15:47< gabba> speaking of this, it might be a good idea to move out the layers enum out of display.hpp, since it's the only thing in there you can't forward declare, and I suspect it forces useless recompilations
20100706 22:16:14< mordante> be my guest
20100706 22:17:05< gabba> ok, if there's no objection I'll do it at some point... easy since header files don't need to be listed in the build scripts
20100706 22:17:10< mordante> I still want to split unit.hpp one day... not sure when the day will be there however
20100706 22:19:27< mordante> the only disadvantage is that enums don't have a class scope themselves :-(
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20100706 22:20:33< mordante> btw gabba I've been testing with cmake before your unused change and it seems to work (only forgot to copy the code)
20100706 22:20:52< gabba> ok
20100706 22:21:10< billynux> mordante, back
20100706 22:21:15< mordante> after that change it only (rightfully) complains about the place where you added the throw
20100706 22:21:36< mordante> billynux does it read until eof before returning the message?
20100706 22:22:42< billynux> mordante, no, just the amount of bytes it was expecting
20100706 22:24:00< billynux> mordante, it's done in asio_listener.cpp:101
20100706 22:24:24< mordante> brb
20100706 22:26:37< CIA-87> eleazar * r43963 /trunk/data/core/ (40 files in 2 dirs): remove accidental double 'wind' in windmill filename from previous commit.
20100706 22:30:19< mordante> billynux, and what is the size of the message those 33 bytes or more?
20100706 22:30:37< zookeeper> crimson_penguin, maybe the 1.8.3 .exe should be on files/hidden/win/ ?
20100706 22:30:44< billynux> 33
20100706 22:31:17< billynux> for some reason it sometimes reads this 33 right, but not the following bytes
20100706 22:32:02< mordante> and how many bytes should it read
20100706 22:32:16< loonycyborg> zookeeper: Perhaps you wanted to ask *me* about that? :P
20100706 22:32:25< billynux> 33 :), there is an mingled call to run there
20100706 22:32:26< zookeeper> loonycyborg, urgh...yeah
20100706 22:32:51< billynux> the thing is, when I set_header_mode() it should call run_listener
20100706 22:32:52< mordante> so those 33 bytes go well and what happens then?
20100706 22:32:58< CIA-87> eleazar * r43964 /trunk/data/core/ (4 files in 2 dirs): first step in getting mountains to blend nicely into various types of terrain.
20100706 22:33:36< billynux> no, it reads the number 33 but not the following 33 bytes
20100706 22:34:07< billynux> so... the call to receive_data later hangs waiting for a message
20100706 22:34:19< mordante> ah ok now I understand
20100706 22:34:41< zookeeper> loonycyborg, there's sometimes pairs of people who i mix up often, i think you and crimson_penguin are one ;)
20100706 22:35:18< billynux> I think the problem is that the thread running the io_service terminates if there isn't a pending operation
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20100706 22:36:12< billynux> and I don't want to do client->send( ... ); client->run(); client->wait_raw_object(...); client->run(); <- it's annoying
20100706 22:37:05< mordante> io_service stops to run when all requests are done
20100706 22:37:33< mordante> but there's a dummy task you can insert so it keeps running
20100706 22:37:49< billynux> io_service::work I think
20100706 22:37:52< loonycyborg> zookeeper: uploaded
20100706 22:38:01< zookeeper> loonycyborg, cool, thanks
20100706 22:38:08< loonycyborg> np
20100706 22:38:19< mordante> sounds familiar, do you add that one to the io_service?
20100706 22:38:34< billynux> boost's doc isn't very helpful there: http://www.boost.org/doc/libs/1_43_0/doc/html/boost_asio/reference/io_service__work.html
20100706 22:39:15< billynux> e.g. : If I create an io_service::work work( io_service_) ; <- local scope, does it remove it when it goes out of scope?
20100706 22:40:05< mordante> if work goes out of scope it should be destroyed
20100706 22:41:52< mordante> but you can create the work object at the same scope as the io_service, which should fix that issue
20100706 22:42:00< billynux> yes, says so in the destructor doc.
20100706 22:42:03< billynux> good, I'll try that
20100706 22:42:50< mordante> something else you want to discuss? I'm about to leave
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20100706 22:44:52< billynux> mordante, mm... anticipating the problem
20100706 22:45:01< billynux> the call client->set_header_first_mode();
20100706 22:45:28< billynux> won't really start the listener (I have to call run_listener(); from the asio_listener base class)
20100706 22:45:34< billynux> (which is protected)
20100706 22:46:02< billynux> but not a bad idea to make it public, since run() doesn't start the listener
20100706 22:46:30< mordante> but can't you create the io_service add the worker and call run directly?
20100706 22:46:48< billynux> the running is not the problem
20100706 22:47:00< billynux> I assume the io_service will be running the thread just fine
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20100706 22:47:41< billynux> what I need is to make a call to run_listener -> (I recently removed the call to run_listener() from run() and put it after the connection procedure is succesful)
20100706 22:48:10< mordante> ok
20100706 22:48:27< mordante> how long does it take to try that solution?
20100706 22:49:01< billynux> say about 15', but we can talk tomorrow
20100706 22:49:32< mordante> ok then either send me an email or leave a message in the log
20100706 22:49:55< mordante> then we can look further tomorrow (if needed) 
20100706 22:50:05< mordante> I hope your idea will work
20100706 22:52:35< billynux> me too, I really want to get this working soon
20100706 22:52:42< mordante> :-)
20100706 22:52:43< mordante> night
20100706 22:53:00< billynux> night, congrats' on the advance to the finals :) 
20100706 22:53:09< billynux> (although I think you said you didn't care)
20100706 22:53:35< mordante> no and didn't know thusfar
20100706 22:53:54< mordante> but thanks anyway
20100706 22:54:44< billynux> :)
20100706 22:55:41< mordante> ciao
20100706 22:55:52< billynux> chau -> spanish
20100706 22:56:20< mordante> ciao -> Italian although also used over here
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20100706 23:03:42< CIA-87> gabba * r43965 /trunk/src/whiteboard/ (14 files): Whiteboard: moved all the typedefs into a typedefs.hpp
20100706 23:07:08< Sapient> loonycyborg: has anone to your knowledge built trunkn with MS VC10 ?
20100706 23:07:40< loonycyborg> To my knowledge no.
20100706 23:07:50< Sapient> ok, looks like I am the pioneer
20100706 23:08:12< Sapient> my problem is that cmake is getting the Includes wrong, and missing files
20100706 23:08:21< loonycyborg> Though it's not like I'm carefully monitoring that :P
20100706 23:08:54< CIA-87> gabba * r43966 /trunk/src/whiteboard/typedefs.hpp: Missing file
20100706 23:09:06< loonycyborg> I'm not using either cmake or msvc, and not planning to either.
20100706 23:09:34< zookeeper> Sapient, what kind of ability do you think we should have in the forum faction? :p
20100706 23:09:38-!- dtiger [~dtiger@dynamic-vpdn-93-125-67-19.telecom.by] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20100706 23:09:55< Sapient> heh, well I already asked for teleportation
20100706 23:10:14< Sapient> and 70% defense ;)
20100706 23:10:30 * Sapient matrix-style dodge
20100706 23:10:39< zookeeper> that simple?
20100706 23:11:07< Sapient> yeah, I'll be surprised if they ever finish it
20100706 23:11:15< Sapient> much less honor all our requests
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20100706 23:16:46< CIA-87> billynux * r43967 /trunk/src/ (5 files in 3 dirs): Fixes ana connection issue to the Wesnoth's server. It receives the first buffer just fine, next move is copying the buffer to the config&.
20100706 23:17:19< billynux> People, after I receive a buffer from the network (void*, size_t). How do I copy that to the config object?
20100706 23:20:36< billynux> Sapient, ^ ?
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20100706 23:20:47< Sapient> is there a config::read() or similar?
20100706 23:21:17< billynux> I'm looking at the current implementation in network.cpp / network_worker.cpp and it's a bit confusing
20100706 23:21:39< Sapient> might be in the serialization utilities
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20100706 23:22:14< Sapient> I am at work so I don't have the code in front of me right now
20100706 23:22:26< billynux> ok, I'll check the serialization module
20100706 23:23:34< billynux> void read_compressed(config &cfg, std::istream &in, compression_schema &schema) ?
20100706 23:25:36< billynux> shadowmaster, any thoughts ^?  
20100706 23:26:11< billynux> zookeeper, ^? :) (sorry to bug you all, but it would save me a good deal of time)
20100706 23:26:27< shadowmaster> billynux: about what?
20100706 23:26:52< billynux> going from a buffer (void*, size_t) to a WML config
20100706 23:27:16< billynux> status: I've read the incoming buffer/message and have to fill the config&
20100706 23:27:26< shadowmaster> hmmmm...btw did you know that we prefer   foobar_t& banana to foobar_t &banana   wherever it makes sense?
20100706 23:27:45< shadowmaster> I tend to miss the ampersands at the start of a word
20100706 23:27:59< shadowmaster> so I could accidentally assume the method takes its parameters by value
20100706 23:28:07< billynux> I didn't but I always try to use word&
20100706 23:28:25< billynux> I didn't code the method I pasted a few lines back :)
20100706 23:28:25-!- boucman [~rosen@wesnoth/developer/boucman] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100706 23:28:35< shadowmaster> anyway I doubt zoo has an opinion on C++ implementation details since he's not a C++ coder
20100706 23:29:22< shadowmaster> I'd first ask what was the buffer's format in the first place; does it make sense to reimplement it as a  complicated and rather expensive WML object instead?
20100706 23:29:27< shadowmaster> maybe it could be a basic_string
20100706 23:29:29< billynux> ok, he is listed on the People to bug on IRC as a leading WML expert :) ... maybe not the C++ part then
20100706 23:29:51< boucman> hey all
20100706 23:30:19< billynux> hi boucman 
20100706 23:30:29< shadowmaster> of course whoever chose to use void* in their C++ program for internal code should be shot in the head
20100706 23:31:20< billynux> it's an ana::serializer::bistream, the internal representation is a std::string
20100706 23:31:44< billynux> I can get the base addr in void*, char*, the size and the string
20100706 23:32:08< billynux> and use the serializer to extract things via the streamer operator >>
20100706 23:32:38< billynux> example: http://code.google.com/p/mili/source/browse/trunk/example_binary-streams.cpp
20100706 23:33:40< shadowmaster> you really love nifty names for your libraries
20100706 23:33:41< boucman> gabba: anything new today ?
20100706 23:33:51< gabba> hi boucman
20100706 23:34:03< billynux> but, for now, it's just an ana::read_buffer, from it you can get the void* or char* for the base, the size, and the associated string
20100706 23:34:32< gabba> I'm doing some refactoring on the highlight visitor, and I'm gonna use that to implement switching actions around the queue
20100706 23:34:43< gabba> dunno if you saw, but numbers are in from yesterday
20100706 23:34:46< billynux> shadowmaster, ? :)
20100706 23:35:06< shadowmaster> billynux: so the buffer is intended to represent a WML object?
20100706 23:35:49< boucman> I saw, but havn't tested (and probably won't today)
20100706 23:35:52< shadowmaster> ah wait, you are trying to get me to tell you how Wesnoth reads config objects from network ? :P
20100706 23:35:57< billynux> no, the buffer is just the data read from the socket, I want to fill the config& with this
20100706 23:36:01< boucman> to you write it, or do you have small overlays ?
20100706 23:36:07< billynux> shadowmaster, yes :)
20100706 23:36:10< shadowmaster> because in that case I have no idea. The networking area is like a blackbox to me.
20100706 23:36:35< billynux> shadowmaster, ok :)... The code in network.cpp and network_worker.cpp is not very clear
20100706 23:36:50< shadowmaster> I guessed as much.
20100706 23:36:59< shadowmaster> hence I stay away from it ;)
20100706 23:37:04< billynux> ;)
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20100706 23:37:12< billynux> I can't afford as much
20100706 23:37:44< shadowmaster> I remember that at some point network data was transferred in the form of "compiled" WML
20100706 23:37:52< shadowmaster> *I seem to recall
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20100706 23:38:53< shadowmaster> but I don't know if that is still (ever?) the case, after the introduction of gzip/zlib compression for server-client interaction
20100706 23:39:07< zookeeper> billynux, feel free to bug me, but bugging me about c++ is a very useless venture ;)
20100706 23:39:31< shadowmaster> compiled WML was also used long ago (before 1.3.something) to write "compressed" saved games
20100706 23:39:33< billynux> zookeeper, :)... shadowmaster, ok. I'll try with read_compressed( .. )
20100706 23:39:52< billynux> I'll see if it blows up
20100706 23:40:15< Sapient> billynux: you should also be aware that the server communicates with simple_wml, not the standard config module
20100706 23:40:37< shadowmaster> I thought that the server worked with simple_wml internally only
20100706 23:40:47< Sapient> I am not by any means an expert on that area of the code though, so I could be wrong 
20100706 23:41:03< billynux> So... who's the guy/girl to bug on this? 
20100706 23:41:12< shadowmaster> maybe Soliton.
20100706 23:41:32< shadowmaster> I'm just guessing. I don't know how far he's went into the networking code.
20100706 23:41:34< Sapient> not many people have actually worked on that area. boucman is one, and Sirp of course
20100706 23:41:36< shadowmaster> *gone
20100706 23:41:54< shadowmaster> suokko also worked on it. Then things went horribly wrong for everyone involved.
20100706 23:42:12 * boucman awakes
20100706 23:42:13< shadowmaster> nah, that was the AI that he broke. The networking code continued to work.
20100706 23:42:34< billynux> boucman, ^ discussion above 
20100706 23:42:59< Sapient> boucman: bill here wants to know how to marshall a config object from a network buffer stream
20100706 23:43:09< billynux> I'm asking what's the best way to fill a config& from a buffer
20100706 23:43:10< billynux> yep
20100706 23:43:34< boucman> last time I looked (which might have been before the zlib integration) we passed uncompressed WML to the worker threads that would compress it, so multiple threads could compile in paralell, and same thing the other way round
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20100706 23:44:39< boucman> the thing is that the compressed WML is dictionarry based, with a dictionarry that is built while sending messages, which means that each connection had its own dictionarry (again, not sure if this is still relevant)
20100706 23:45:44< billynux> mmm... 
20100706 23:47:42< boucman> billynux: is that the sort of stuff you were asking ?
20100706 23:48:08< billynux> boucman, more like check method X from file Y
20100706 23:48:35< boucman> billynux: ouch, it's too old for me to remember...
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20100706 23:49:04< billynux> boucman, I don't really care "how" it's done, I know its there somewhere and the code from the network module is not particularly clear to follow
20100706 23:49:13< billynux> but that's ok, I'll keep at it
20100706 23:50:28< billynux> thanks though
20100706 23:51:23< gabba> err, what's going on? The test scenario now refuses to load in debug mode and dies spitting out a bunch of errors (pastebin coming up)
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20100706 23:52:34< gabba> Here are the errors: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com/qy8J6fcQ
20100706 23:53:10< boucman> isn't that the new test case for #error ? it seems to work :P
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20100706 23:55:19< gabba> amazing test case, that prevents me and anybody else working with the test scenario in debug mode. great job, AI0867
--- Log closed Wed Jul 07 00:00:03 2010