--- Log opened Mon Jul 12 00:00:29 2010
--- Day changed Mon Jul 12 2010
20100712 00:00:29< Crab_> if you'll hit a wall, then try to introduce limitations into the process. e.g., 'allow to get them only at turn start' or 'allow to get them only on turn of the side who has the variable', etc.
20100712 00:00:32< Upthorn> I was going to start by implementing transactions, since I know what is needed to make those work, and then I just need to figure out where to put the start_transaction(), end_transaction() and cancel_transaction() calls in the mp controller
20100712 00:00:50< Crab_> note: better to say 'commit' instead of 'end' and 'rollback' instead of 'cancel'
20100712 00:01:03< Crab_> (and 'begin' instead of 'start')
20100712 00:01:29< Upthorn> yeah, I was actually going to use commit_transaction but 'end' was faster to type
20100712 00:01:29< wesbot> Upthorn: Sometimes we are fast
20100712 00:01:50< Upthorn> and it still hurts a little bit to type
20100712 00:02:30< Crab_> Upthorn: well, then it might be a good idea to devote more time to thinking, not to coding/typing )
20100712 00:02:45< Crab_> I'd say that it's better to figure out the hardest part first
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20100712 00:03:29< Crab_> but transactions pose interesting questions, too...
20100712 00:03:50< zookeeper> noy, yeah, i don't strongly thing that the current system needs to change
20100712 00:03:54< zookeeper> think, even
20100712 00:04:28< Crab_> hi, knotwork
20100712 00:04:29< Upthorn> my intent was to store a list of "dirty" variables with the transaction, and refresh them from file on rollback
20100712 00:04:44< Upthorn> that might be inefficient with SQL, though
20100712 00:05:14< Crab_> Upthorn: well, the rollback() method is part of persistence_context, so it'll be different for a SQL-based context
20100712 00:05:17< noy> bbiab
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20100712 00:05:51< Upthorn> Ok.
20100712 00:05:55< Crab_> Upthorn: it can even do a plain sql rollback to undo all things in current transaction
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20100712 00:06:07< Crab_> that is, keep 1 db transaction for 1 wesnoth transaction
20100712 00:06:39< Upthorn> oh right, I knew about SQL transactions. I just never thought about them
20100712 00:07:33< Crab_> the sql implementation can use things like postgresql's 2-phase commit support
20100712 00:08:21< Crab_> (if you do implement 2-phase commits for wesnoth's transactions, which is nice but not the most important thing atm)
20100712 00:09:20< Crab_> in most cases, I think, that it would be ok if we limit the transactions to 1 host only - e.g. several global variable operations for the same side, in a single block
20100712 00:10:44< Crab_> (that will, for our purposes, eliminate the need for 2-phase commits, since everything would happen on a single host)
20100712 00:11:15< Crab_> but it will limit the wml author's options
20100712 00:13:14< Crab_> but, nevertheless, for now, the most important thing is the plain 'mp support' for persistent vars.
20100712 00:13:58< Upthorn> I will probably need to ask questions over the next few days about how communication works in mp
20100712 00:14:30< Crab_> fallback solution, for pessimistic case: allow getting persistent variables only on 'start of own turn' (e.g., side 1 can get/set/clean persistent vars only on start turns of side1), then the sync issue becomes a lot easier to solve.
20100712 00:14:35< Upthorn> If I do right now, though, I won't remember what the answers were. I'll only remember what you said because I specifically saved it to a file to read again later.
20100712 00:14:55< Crab_> but I hope that we'll think out a better (yet robust) solution than that.
20100712 00:15:30< Upthorn> yeah, I would really not like to make such a limitation on WML authors, especially compared to SP.
20100712 00:16:11< Upthorn> Ideally no additional effort should be needed by UMC devs to translate persistent variables from an SP context to an MP context.
20100712 00:16:29< Crab_> there was some related work related to 'advance unit' wml event
20100712 00:17:03< Upthorn> I remember there being several patches to that issue before the summer of code period started
20100712 00:17:18< Upthorn> I was worried for a bit because I thought the author was applying as a student
20100712 00:17:21< Crab_> see https://gna.org/bugs/?15560
20100712 00:18:06< Crab_> also, I think it would be a good thing to invest time into some better debugging faculties for multiplayer wml/sync before starting the actual work
20100712 00:19:03< Crab_> for example, 'pop up a debug dialog from c++ code, upon receiving a config from network, displaying 'what was received' '
20100712 00:19:13< Crab_> or just improving the logs
20100712 00:20:04< Upthorn> yeah, I will probably need such features.
20100712 00:21:09< Crab_> note silene's quote in the bug page - 'In fact, handling decisions properly in WML may even require changing the replay protocol so that decisions become fist-class citizens instead of being embedded in other actions.'
20100712 00:22:15< Crab_> and note patch https://gna.org/patch/?1610
20100712 00:22:42< Crab_> the patch has some of the logic you need to implement
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20100712 00:24:43< Upthorn> I will review it. I definitely need to sleep first, though
20100712 00:24:56< Crab_> ok )
20100712 00:25:30< Upthorn> I am barely understanding human language right now, let alone C++ networking code :)
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20100712 00:29:02< Crab_> ;)
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20100712 09:02:26-!- Topic for #wesnoth-dev: 145 bugs, 282 feature requests, 15 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
20100712 09:02:26-!- Topic set by wesbot [~wesbot@wesnoth/bot/wesbot] [Sun Jul 11 22:24:16 2010]
20100712 09:02:26[Users #wesnoth-dev]
20100712 09:02:26[ ABCD        ] [ chris|         ] [ fendrin  ] [ koan           ] [ shikadibot] [ wesbot   ] 
20100712 09:02:26[ Aethaeryn   ] [ CIA-87         ] [ Greywhind] [ lobby          ] [ Sirp      ] [ yann     ] 
20100712 09:02:26[ AI0867      ] [ crimson_penguin] [ happygrue] [ mjs-de         ] [ Smar      ] [ zookeeper] 
20100712 09:02:26[ ancestral   ] [ eleazar        ] [ Ingmar   ] [ mordocai       ] [ Soliton   ] 
20100712 09:02:26[ apoi        ] [ elias          ] [ isaac    ] [ nguyenatto     ] [ Tigge     ] 
20100712 09:02:26[ Appleman1234] [ erl            ] [ Ivanovic ] [ Rhonda         ] [ timotei   ] 
20100712 09:02:26[ Bocom_      ] [ esr            ] [ iwaim_   ] [ shadowm_laptop2] [ Upthorn   ] 
20100712 09:02:26[ Carneus     ] [ ettin          ] [ knotwork ] [ shadowmaster   ] [ Vetinari  ] 
20100712 09:02:26-!- Irssi: #wesnoth-dev: Total of 43 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 43 normal]
20100712 09:02:30-!- Channel #wesnoth-dev created Tue Jan 27 06:28:41 2009
20100712 09:03:33-!- Irssi: Join to #wesnoth-dev was synced in 74 secs
20100712 09:12:00< shadowmaster> Ivanovic: do you know of any way to avoid tearing with radeon's Xv support?
20100712 09:12:25< Ivanovic> IIRC there is some setting to have vsync active
20100712 09:12:39< Ivanovic> *but* this does only work for exactly one output display
20100712 09:12:44< shadowmaster> besides EXAVsync?
20100712 09:12:59< shadowmaster> I only have one screen, (un)fortunately
20100712 09:13:03< Ivanovic> maybe some xv parameter
20100712 09:13:26< Ivanovic> check xvinfo
20100712 09:13:43< Ivanovic> you should have an attribute called XV_VSYNC
20100712 09:13:51< Ivanovic> no idea how to change it though, maybe ask in #radeon
20100712 09:13:54< shadowmaster>       "XV_VSYNC" (range 0 to 1)
20100712 09:13:55< shadowmaster>               client settable attribute
20100712 09:14:06< shadowmaster> I guess I should tell vlc to somehow tell the server to use that.
20100712 09:14:37< Ivanovic> client gettable attribute (current value is 1)
20100712 09:14:42< Ivanovic> that is the important entry
20100712 09:14:44< Ivanovic> ;)
20100712 09:14:55< Ivanovic> so yeah, over here i got vsync for xv active for one screen
20100712 09:15:02< shadowmaster> well, it also says that it's 1.
20100712 09:15:15< shadowmaster> I hope it isn't that I  *need* to use KMS for this. :/
20100712 09:15:16< Ivanovic> then you should have vsync
20100712 09:16:30< Ivanovic> that is: over here kms does work with less issues than ums
20100712 09:16:45< Ivanovic> in ums i tend to get some freezes every now and then with the latest qt
20100712 09:16:51< shadowmaster> but I'm currently using UMS because of various issues (degraded performance, hibernation issues caused by KDE) that don't improve my user experience at all
20100712 09:17:10< shadowmaster> (2.6.34, always latest mesa, libdrm and radeon ddx)
20100712 09:17:49< Ivanovic> then, uhm, post bug reports about the hibernation issues
20100712 09:18:13< Ivanovic> honestly, on my ati machine i don't use hibernate, so no idea if it does wake up nicely or not
20100712 09:18:29< shadowmaster> except that I don't know where to report them, since they are clearly client-side issues; for example, the hibernate script switches to a text terminal before invoking the platform's hibernation mechanism.
20100712 09:18:31< Ivanovic> on my laptop i got an intel graphics card and that works nicely with kms and hibernation right from kde
20100712 09:18:37< Ivanovic> bugs.freedesktop.or
20100712 09:18:39< Ivanovic> g
20100712 09:18:56< Ivanovic> why don't you use the default hibernation implementation?
20100712 09:18:59< shadowmaster> however, KDE's method doesn't switch to a text terminal beforehand, so X continues blocking the KMS driver
20100712 09:19:03< Ivanovic> as in pm utils
20100712 09:19:18< Ivanovic> (that is called via dbus in kde)
20100712 09:19:31< shadowmaster> I'd say that the default mechanism is what doesn't work.
20100712 09:19:42< Ivanovic> there is zero reason to switch to a text terminal for hibernation!
20100712 09:20:35< Ivanovic> i'd say: report a bug at bugs.freedesktop.org listing the output of a working suspend cycle with ums and a broken one with kms, add some info about the chip used, wait for replies
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20100712 10:16:19< CIA-87> billynux * r44123 /trunk/src/ (5 files in 3 dirs): More work on the ana server, it now handshakes properly with connecting clients. Work remains to set things up for further communication.
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20100712 10:40:13< Ivanovic> wow, this one sounds strange... https://gna.org/bugs/index.php?16235
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20100712 11:09:53< rusty> Hello all!
20100712 11:10:32< zookeeper> hello
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20100712 11:12:21< Crab_> hi, rusty
20100712 11:13:09< rusty> zookeeper, Crab_: hi!
20100712 11:14:57< timotei> :D
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20100712 11:28:36< Ivanovic> hi rusty
20100712 11:28:43< rusty> Ivanovic: hi1
20100712 11:28:46< Ivanovic> rusty: what exactly are your problems with the iphone port?
20100712 11:29:04< Ivanovic> that is: reagarding the ToS apple does publish the progs license terms override the stuff apple provides
20100712 11:29:16< rusty> Ivanovic: I thought I made that pretty clear in my mails?
20100712 11:29:24< Ivanovic> so in fact all stuff about "not copying" and whatever that apple adds is in fact invalid in regards to wesnoth
20100712 11:29:45< Ivanovic> so the only problem is the devices shit that you can't copy anything onto them without using itunes unless you jailbreak them
20100712 11:29:58< Ivanovic> which is a task the *user* has to do to get any real usage out of the device
20100712 11:30:19< Ivanovic> and once it is jailbreaked it should be possible to just copy around the binary, compile one yourself and whatever
20100712 11:31:26< Ivanovic> so all problems left are "apple hardware is f***ed up unless you 'hack' them to allow you some freedom"
20100712 11:32:08< rusty> Ivanovic: and I think I was pretty clear that that was my concern?
20100712 11:33:09< Ivanovic> so what should wesnoth change about apples approach to lock their hardware in?
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20100712 11:33:26< Ivanovic> once the device is jailbroken you can copy stuff around, distribute the binary and whatever
20100712 11:33:48< rusty> Ivanovic: that is one good question.  I mean, if noone else working on wesnoth cares, then the answer is "nothing".
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20100712 11:34:20< Ivanovic> personally i care alot about the spirit of open source and what i think the gpl implies
20100712 11:34:34< elias> wasn't there some GNU game which was removed by apple?
20100712 11:34:38< Ivanovic> that is that i can do with the software basically as i please as long as i leave other users the same rights
20100712 11:34:41< Ivanovic> elias: it was removed
20100712 11:34:43< elias> because the FSF told Apple to comply to the GPL
20100712 11:34:46< Ivanovic> but it was in fact a different case
20100712 11:34:54< rusty> Ivanovic: me too.  That's why I started the thread (though I should have checked the forums first!)
20100712 11:35:09< Ivanovic> since the one porting the software has not proviced any way to allow the user get the changes he made
20100712 11:35:57< Ivanovic> rusty: personally i thinik that the spirit of the gpl is basically kept with what we do ship (yeah, personal opinion, not a lawyer, all that stuff applies)
20100712 11:36:00< rusty> Ivanovic: I was about to suggest those of us who care get together (using mumble, maybe?) and try to figure out what our motivations are.
20100712 11:36:17< Ivanovic> the reason being that you most likely can even copy the binary once you get around the freaking locks that apple places on their hardware
20100712 11:37:08< Ivanovic> the sources are available, the changes can be backported (though they are rather ugly and very usecase specific, not a clean and platformindependent change that is easily modifiable) if wanted
20100712 11:38:47< rusty> Ivanovic: there are several concerns I have.  We're supporting Apple's closed platform, and making it more attractive.  We're making money from locked down users (and giving Apple a cut).  We're not applying any pressure on Apple to make their platform more open.  We're not informing users of what makes Wesnoth so awesome: the 100% volunteers to get together to craft it!
20100712 11:39:44< Ivanovic> rusty: honestly i think the only thing that *can* be done is showing apple users stuff like "hey, there are other cool devices out there, that allow you all the freedom!"
20100712 11:40:12< Ivanovic> rusty: and i eg do so by creating a binary for the openpandora (that is directly based on the release tarball) which is working really lovely
20100712 11:40:14< rusty> Ivanovic: I'm not so sure; but there's no point brainstorming it if we can't agree it's something we want to do.
20100712 11:40:52< rusty> Ivanovic: cool!!  (Googled openpandora)
20100712 11:40:52< elias> http://www.fsf.org/blogs/licensing/more-about-the-app-store-gpl-enforcement
20100712 11:41:04< elias> ^that's the game i meant
20100712 11:41:13< elias> so it would be a good idea *not* to involve apple in any way :P
20100712 11:42:03< Ivanovic> rusty: yeah, the openpandora is a really cool device and i hope that production soon ramps up at least a little
20100712 11:42:04< zookeeper> so couldn't the iphone version just have a footnote in the description and title screen saying that it's free and that one can get it for free too?
20100712 11:42:16< Ivanovic> (so far only some <700 devices were shipped to "endusers" like me)
20100712 11:42:26< Ivanovic> zookeeper: that is there
20100712 11:42:44< Ivanovic> it is listed that it is open source and available for pc and mac free of charge on the wesnoth homepage
20100712 11:44:45< Ivanovic> elias: personally i understand those rules as DarthFool pointed out on the ML
20100712 11:45:04< Ivanovic> the ToS stuff is basically added to the existing terms of usage of uploaded programs
20100712 11:45:26< Ivanovic> *but* it does not override anything in the existing terms of usage (gplv2 in our case)
20100712 11:45:46< Ivanovic> since the gpl does say that adding restrictions is not allowed, all added restrictions do not apply
20100712 11:46:07< rusty> zookeeper: Except, in practice, they can't get it for free for the iPhone, unless they jailbreak it.
20100712 11:47:45< elias> ah, found the mailing list thread, yeah, it's about just this issue apparently :)
20100712 11:47:45< timotei> Isn't an option out there, in app store, to "only install on jailbreaked software"?
20100712 11:47:46< timotei> :))
20100712 11:48:15< elias> the ToS forbid any involvement with jalbrekaing :P
20100712 11:48:38< timotei> well, let's just say then: "freed iOS":))
20100712 11:50:19< elias> heh
20100712 11:50:31< Ivanovic> rusty: honestly, this is (in my eyes) an hardware issue only (i consider the OS of an embedded system as part of the hardware)
20100712 11:53:06< rusty> Ivanovic: People say that, but I just don't get it.  It doesn't really matter to me how people are trying to avoid their GPL obligations; I've seen contract law, employment contracts, maintenance contracts, and outright fraud.  Building hardware or firmware to do it is just an optimization for these people, it's not an "accident" or something.
20100712 11:53:36< Ivanovic> rusty: yes, the lock in is 100% intended by apple
20100712 11:53:53< Ivanovic> and personally i am happy to see that there are this many way to jailbreak apple stuff
20100712 11:54:44< rusty> Ivanovic: yes, though I'm also glad there's some competition (though Android is less slick than iOS, for sure).
20100712 11:54:46< Ivanovic> due to those many ways you can actually use the device somehow (though i don't buy those simply because i don't like the policy, if i buy a music player i just want to be able to mount it in my system, copy the music on it and make use of it)
20100712 11:55:46< Ivanovic> but honestly there is basically zero pressure that a small project like wesnoth can create on apple
20100712 11:56:05< Ivanovic> apple simply is too big by now to have their ways changed by some external projects
20100712 11:56:16< Ivanovic> comparable to microsoft on the normal pc market
20100712 11:56:17< noy> morning.
20100712 11:56:22< timotei> hi noy  :D
20100712 11:57:34< noy> Ivanovic: actually I doubt that if you take the collective clout for all the Open source based games and tried to influence apple, it would do little to change their behavior. 
20100712 11:57:53< Ivanovic> noy: it would do nothing
20100712 11:58:49< noy> Darthfool's email is interesting. I didn't see the misc. Clause
20100712 11:59:23< elias> not even the combined protest of all flash developers would do anything to influence apple :P
20100712 11:59:40< Ivanovic> noy: yes, very
20100712 12:00:07< Ivanovic> noy: and this misc clause is IMO why the only possible problem is the redistribution of the binary file
20100712 12:00:15< noy> Basically I think it greatly muddies FSF's case, because then its a challenge on which paragraph supersedes. 
20100712 12:00:31< Ivanovic> which is only a problem due to the strange lock in stuff on the hardware that can be worked around
20100712 12:01:49< noy> Well Ivanovic its more than that...
20100712 12:02:00< Ivanovic> the problem with the jailbreak stuff is that we can't provide some "howto free your device" article
20100712 12:02:45< Ivanovic> since the DCMA does probably prohibit those (at least i am rather sure that the german laws that prohibit working around copy protections does also include this stuff, so i assume that the US laws cover similar stuff)
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20100712 12:03:43< noy> rusty: I'd probably like to participate in your proposal given I've been dealing with this issue for the project, but I'm leaving for a week long vacation in four hours. 
20100712 12:04:39< noy> if you want to set it up for early next week, I'd appreciate that. 
20100712 12:04:40< rusty> noy: as I said in the last post, I don't think this is "urgent" in any real way.  We can wait a week.
20100712 12:05:31< rusty> noy: (it could take me that long to figure out how to set up a mumble server!)
20100712 12:06:12< noy> I think we can set up a small email list of individuals and do it that way.
20100712 12:10:15< rusty> noy: Ideally we'd do it face to face, but my teleporter is still in alpha test.  So I figure voice to voice is second best option :)
20100712 12:11:11< elias> apple in general like to be vague. e.g. the ToS basically say you are not allowed to use any wrapper libraries (like SDL) - but they don't enforce it
20100712 12:11:25< noy> Eh, I think given the complexity of this issue, text based might be better. 
20100712 12:11:55< noy> particularly when quite a few people aren't native english speakers. 
20100712 12:12:41< Ivanovic> why not irc?
20100712 12:12:53< rusty> noy: hmm, good point.  All the devs are so fluent on irc I sometimes forget :)
20100712 12:13:10< elias> ToS 3.3.1: "Applications that link to Documented APIs through an intermediary translation or compatibility layer or tool are prohibited"
20100712 12:13:12< rusty> Ivanovic: I've seen IRC get just as heated, and it's lower bandwidth.
20100712 12:13:13< elias> :P
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20100712 12:13:43< Ivanovic> rusty: anything gets heated eventually
20100712 12:13:46< noy> Well IRC tends to just degrade into a uninterpretable wall of  text
20100712 12:14:04< noy> I think there should be selectivity on who gets to participate....
20100712 12:14:29< Ivanovic> since it won't be "500 people all chat at the same time" meeting, irc does most likely work nicely
20100712 12:14:31< noy> Not to be trite, but some people tend to get a little too heated on this topic
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20100712 12:14:38< rusty> Ivanovic: agreed, but I really want to keep this positive.  I find that voice really helps.
20100712 12:14:56< noy> I think if we get a good group together we can do that. 
20100712 12:15:17< rusty> Ivanovic: I've sometimes resorted to calling people on the phone in the middle of a flamewar.  It really helps.  Dunno why.
20100712 12:16:00< Ivanovic> rusty: i don't think it will degrade into a flamewar
20100712 12:16:15< Ivanovic> that is: the people that will be around are likely to be able to discuss things
20100712 12:16:27< Ivanovic> (those that start a flamewar get kicked and that's it)
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20100712 12:19:10< rusty> Ivanovic: I'd really like to try this via voice & IRC.  Sure, partly because it's cool.  But also because I really think we'll get a better sense of what various people's motivations are.
20100712 12:19:44< Ivanovic> anyway, there are already >30°C outside over here (forecast talks about 36°C today), so i should really head out into the garden and enjoy the weather, better than sitting in front of my computer in a room with 28°C
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20100712 12:20:03< noy> Ivanovic: I've got to be on a ferry in four hours, and I haven't slept yet
20100712 12:20:13< Ivanovic> noy: outsch!
20100712 12:20:15< noy> so I agree with you.
20100712 12:20:23< noy> I'm off to bed
20100712 12:20:25< noy> take care
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20100712 12:22:12< elias> i wonder what would happen if the FSF contacted apple in a similar way to GNU Go
20100712 12:22:47< Ivanovic> elias: then wesnoth would vanish from the appstore
20100712 12:23:14< elias> hm, probably :/
20100712 12:23:43< timotei> stupid apple!
20100712 12:24:00< rusty> Ivanovic: lucky bastard!  It's middle of winter here :( Get out and have fun!
20100712 12:24:16< timotei> rusty: 36+C is "lucky"?:))
20100712 12:24:20< Ivanovic> rusty: you know, temperatures above 30°C are *seldom* in germany
20100712 12:24:33< Ivanovic> so people do whine a lot over here that it is too hot and all the likes
20100712 12:24:34< rusty> timotei: I'm Australian... 36 is great weather!!
20100712 12:24:38< elias> i'm sitting in an office without A/C and it has at least 30° in here ;;
20100712 12:24:49< timotei> Ivanovic: what's the composite key for that circle from "grades"?
20100712 12:25:02< timotei> rusty: well, I don't like when it's too host
20100712 12:25:08< Ivanovic> no composite key required in the german layout
20100712 12:25:10< timotei> yesterday was however a funny day
20100712 12:25:13< timotei> ah damn
20100712 12:25:20< timotei> it both rained and sun was shininh
20100712 12:25:21< Ivanovic> it is shift plus the key left of the '1'
20100712 12:25:45< elias> heh, i just tried to figure out the composite key, then realized I'm in windows o_O
20100712 12:25:49< timotei> :))
20100712 12:25:50< elias> so no composite key :P
20100712 12:25:54< timotei> oh damn. me too:|
20100712 12:26:06< timotei> it rained pretty much here in Romania:(
20100712 12:26:12< timotei> there were a lot of floods
20100712 12:26:27< timotei> red code in 1/4 of Romania
20100712 12:30:10< rusty> Well, good night from me too.  But I'm just going to eat my pasta and do some hacking; too cold and dark to want to go outside :)
20100712 12:30:19< timotei> bye rusty 
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20100712 12:30:40< loonycyborg> It's so hot in my parts that I'm not in mood to do anything productive whatsoever :(
20100712 12:31:05< timotei> loonycyborg: yeah, too much hot is not good
20100712 12:32:31< loonycyborg> I long for a refreshing vacation in fiery pits of hell :P
20100712 12:33:54< timotei> lol
20100712 12:34:01< timotei> I don't like hell
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20100712 17:14:48< timotei> hey fendrin :)
20100712 17:14:57< fendrin> hi timotei
20100712 17:15:30< timotei> fendrin: in your opinion, I'm "behind" or "on" the schedule?
20100712 17:18:49< fendrin> timotei: You are slightly behind but not much.
20100712 17:19:01< timotei> ok
20100712 17:20:15< timotei> right now I'm striving to do that highlighting for tags
20100712 17:20:34< timotei> will it be "enough" if, I bold the tags for example?
20100712 17:20:38-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has quit [Quit: noy]
20100712 17:20:47< timotei> or how should they be highlighted?
20100712 17:20:54< timotei> have another font/size/style?
20100712 17:21:25< timotei> currently I haven't found a way of letting eclipse "border" the entire tag, like is currently done on '}', because it will border only one character
20100712 17:21:26< fendrin> timotei: changing the background colour is a common method.
20100712 17:21:31< timotei> ok
20100712 17:21:58< fendrin> timotei: The border feature is also the same as the implode/explode thing=
20100712 17:22:01< fendrin> ?
20100712 17:23:15< timotei> hmm
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20100712 17:23:25< timotei> implode/explore? I don't get that
20100712 17:23:28< timotei> hi billynux :-)
20100712 17:23:36< billynux> hi timotei 
20100712 17:24:44< timotei> hehe, found zookeeper's image on imagebin ;))
20100712 17:24:49< timotei> zookeeper: you blender?:D
20100712 17:24:56< zookeeper> timotei, no, it's 3ds max
20100712 17:25:03< timotei> ah, good enoguh
20100712 17:25:14< fendrin> timotei: We talked about the implode/explode feature that exlipse offers for imports and methods for example.
20100712 17:25:22< timotei> oh yeah, folding :P
20100712 17:25:33< fendrin> yepp.
20100712 17:25:43< timotei> well, not really like that. one sec
20100712 17:25:50< timotei> (imagebin is si slowww)
20100712 17:27:24< timotei> fendrin: with the current wml grammar folding works beautiful with tags :-)
20100712 17:27:32< timotei> there are 2 approaches on writing that grammar
20100712 17:27:39< timotei> 1) generate based on the schema.cfg
20100712 17:27:43< timotei> 2) make it "generic"
20100712 17:28:20< timotei> both have "disadvantages" and "advantages
20100712 17:28:38< timotei> 1) - too much redundancy to allow macros everywhere in the code
20100712 17:29:07< timotei> but it offers a "safe" way to write code, since there are known all the available tags/keys
20100712 17:29:32< timotei> 2) does not offer automatcally autocompletition  - but I can create the content assistant for that
20100712 17:29:37< timotei> it's much "cleaner"
20100712 17:30:16 * fendrin wonders if anyone is around who has ever worked with apache.commons.math.genetics
20100712 17:30:22< timotei> genetics?
20100712 17:30:29< timotei> that isn't part of AI domain?
20100712 17:30:39< timotei> maybe Crab could help you there
20100712 17:30:42< fendrin> hmmm, I don't know.
20100712 17:31:28< timotei> fendrin: why not try to join their irc?
20100712 17:31:30< fendrin> It's about genetic algorithms to find a solution to a problem by evolving the input.
20100712 17:32:11< fendrin> timotei: Good idea, I didn't know that there is an irc channel for commons math.
20100712 17:32:20< esr> fendrin: Are you going to have any time to work on Wings of Victory this summer?
20100712 17:32:42< timotei> fendrin: well, don't really know if it's specialized on math, but on apache/apache commons there surely should.
20100712 17:32:42< fendrin> esr: Not that soon. But I will come back to work on it as soon as possible.
20100712 17:34:25< timotei> it seems there is #apache . maybe they can send you to further specialized channels
20100712 17:36:47< fendrin> timotei: The apache channel is not public. It's read only.
20100712 17:36:55< timotei> lol:|
20100712 17:39:17< CIA-87> esr * r44124 /trunk/data/tools/wmllint: 
20100712 17:39:17< CIA-87> Detect and warn of a missing ID field in a [race] tag.
20100712 17:39:17< CIA-87> Addresses bug #16101: WMLint should handle missing id key in [race].
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20100712 18:34:12< crimson_penguin> loonycyborg: we submitted to the App Store last night - so we'd like to release 1.0 soon, which would be good to have a Windows installer for ;)
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20100712 18:40:51< Ivanovic> crimson_penguin: talking about frogatto?
20100712 18:41:10< crimson_penguin> yeah
20100712 18:41:30< crimson_penguin> loonycyborg doesn't grace us with his presence in #frogatto :(
20100712 18:41:32< Ivanovic> hmm, should i try to build it for pandora?
20100712 18:41:46< crimson_penguin> someone else wants to build it for Pandora
20100712 18:41:48< Ivanovic> (no idea if it will work though...)
20100712 18:41:51< Ivanovic> ah, okay
20100712 18:42:20< crimson_penguin> but there's the whole non-free content issue
20100712 18:42:20< Ivanovic> at least compiling (and running) wesnoth for the pandora works lovely
20100712 18:42:27< crimson_penguin> it should work fine, yeah
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20100712 19:05:21< Ivanovic> for the pandora there are basically two possible kinds of packages:
20100712 19:05:54< Ivanovic> 1) "complete" packages where you have the executable binary together with all required game data in one package, similar to the .app files on osx
20100712 19:06:08-!- Tycale [~Thibault@94.23.50.172] has quit [Quit: Disconnecting from stoned server.]
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20100712 19:06:29< Ivanovic> 2) a pnd with just the executable and some start script that requires you to manually copy the data into some "specific" folder of the sd card
20100712 19:06:57< Ivanovic> way '2' is eg used for interpreters for doom and the likes, where you got to have the original game data to play it
20100712 19:12:25-!- boucman [~rosen@wesnoth/developer/boucman] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100712 19:13:01< boucman> hey all
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20100712 19:17:26-!- gabba [~gabba@wesnoth/developer/gabba] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100712 19:17:36< gabba> bonjour
20100712 19:18:19-!- ancestral [~ancestral@97-116-118-8.mpls.qwest.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100712 19:19:03< boucman> bonjour gabba
20100712 19:19:05< boucman> quoi de neuf ?
20100712 19:19:29< gabba> salut boucman
20100712 19:19:50< gabba> rien de neuf à part qu'on continue à avancer :)
20100712 19:20:03< gabba> did you have time to test the latest wb changes?
20100712 19:20:11< gabba> (i.e. from friday)
20100712 19:20:58< boucman> quickly...
20100712 19:21:25< boucman> I think we reached the point where your quick job on arrows don't make the cut anymore...
20100712 19:22:00< boucman> I find the whole WB thing a bit confusing when there are a lot of arrows around, and that's the kind of problem a good UI designer can solve with better graphics...
20100712 19:22:25< gabba> boucman: ^true
20100712 19:22:27< boucman> I'l trying to get eleazar__ to give us some crits and comments, but he is working on other stuff...
20100712 19:22:54< boucman> I dont know if you saw but I tweaked ghosted animations a bit, they are now greyscaled like stoned units
20100712 19:23:33< gabba> Not yet, I'm updating and building
20100712 19:23:41< boucman> so am I :P
20100712 19:24:57< gabba> I need to change a bit the arrow-drawing algorithm to allow for a second-to-last image, so we can spread the tip between two hexes
20100712 19:25:46< boucman> hm, couldn't you use "bigger than hex" images ? or would they be cut ?
20100712 19:26:32< gabba> I assumed bigger-than-hex images wouldn't work well, but then I still don't know *that* well the drawing system
20100712 19:27:00< boucman> i'm not sure my self, give it a try :)
20100712 19:27:48< gabba> but, it might be a big confusing for everybody if every part of the arrows are drawn using images that fit in a single hex, but then the tip doesn't follow that standard
20100712 19:28:13< timotei> yey, fendrin fixed the outline for tags :D
20100712 19:28:21< boucman> well "everyone" here means "artists redrawing arrows" which might not be such a common occurence
20100712 19:28:24< CIA-87> timotei * r44125 /trunk/utils/java/ (27 files in 12 dirs): eclipse plugin: wml grammar - fix outline structure: now the tags are hierarchical shown
20100712 19:28:42< CIA-87> timotei * r44126 /trunk/utils/java/org.wesnoth.wml/ (2 files in 2 dirs): eclipse plugin: wml grammar - allow duplicate tag names
20100712 19:28:53< gabba> or coders trying to understand/modify the arrows, which will happen some day
20100712 19:29:00< gabba> also since we have tips going in 6 directions, each of these images will need to be drawn at different coordinates 
20100712 19:29:32< gabba> unlike hex-sized images for which using default coordinates work perfect
20100712 19:29:34< timotei> uuu, student midterm evaluation is online
20100712 19:29:46< boucman> gabba: if you think "before last" is easier to do, go for it... 
20100712 19:29:49< timotei> gabba, billynux, Upthorn: did you complete(d) the midterm eval?
20100712 19:29:52< boucman> I was just suggesting another method
20100712 19:30:02< timotei> gabba, billynux, Upthorn: fast link: http://socghop.appspot.com/gsoc/project_survey/take/gsoc_program/google/gsoc2010/studentmid10
20100712 19:30:07< boucman> timotei: thx for reminding me, I havn't yet
20100712 19:30:20< gabba> timotei: not yet, but thanks for the link
20100712 19:30:28< timotei> sorry boucman, I don't know yet mentor's link ;))
20100712 19:30:34< timotei> maybe If I can hack in
20100712 19:30:37< boucman> i'll find it :)
20100712 19:30:43< billynux> timotei, yes
20100712 19:31:02< billynux> timotei, I just did, I enjoyed most of the questions
20100712 19:31:08< timotei> billynux: nice:D
20100712 19:31:57< billynux> timotei, boucman, gabba, Upthorn, Crab_, mordante : ... and suggested some form of task tracking service, with a visual display of partial and overall progress (coupled with issue tracking if possible)
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20100712 19:32:30< timotei> who suggested?
20100712 19:32:34< billynux> It would be cool if Melange had an easy way of keeping track of tasks/milestones and progress
20100712 19:32:38< billynux> timotei, me :)
20100712 19:32:39< timotei> oh
20100712 19:32:41< timotei> yeah
20100712 19:32:47 * eleazar__ probably won't be around today.
20100712 19:32:55< timotei> I managed to get that working in "excel"+"printscreen":))
20100712 19:33:03< timotei> but it would be cool
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20100712 19:33:49< timotei> at least they have "optional" boxes
20100712 19:34:09< fendrin> timotei: :-)
20100712 19:35:05< billynux> timotei, excel+printscreen !?!?
20100712 19:35:11< billynux> :D
20100712 19:35:17< timotei> yeah, create the table, and printscreen
20100712 19:35:19< timotei> and yes upload too
20100712 19:35:20< timotei> :P
20100712 19:35:26< timotei> with the timeline
20100712 19:36:37< timotei> pff
20100712 19:36:43< timotei> hard question: How would you describe the quality of work you’ve produced thus far? :
20100712 19:37:07< timotei> I'm not sure from what point of view
20100712 19:37:09< boucman> timotei: are you able to submit the surey ? I can't manage to find the link...
20100712 19:37:47< timotei> boucman: check if you're logged-in (that is, no "Sign In" link in left). It should be a "red" link, at the bottom of the left pane
20100712 19:37:53< fendrin> timotei: The answer is without doubt: "Linus Torwalds" :-P
20100712 19:37:54< timotei> but, try this:
20100712 19:38:03< timotei> http://socghop.appspot.com/gsoc/project_survey/take/gsoc_program/google/gsoc2010/mentormid10
20100712 19:38:08< timotei> tell me if it works:D
20100712 19:38:15< timotei> fendrin: yeah :))
20100712 19:38:24< billynux> timotei, I know... very hard question...
20100712 19:38:50-!- Bocom [~Bocom@c-b7cfe255.013-31-6b736412.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100712 19:38:52< boucman> i'm logged in and get a 404...
20100712 19:38:58< boucman> and no link on the bottom
20100712 19:39:17< timotei> :|
20100712 19:39:21< boucman> well, there was no mail on the mentor ML yet, maybe mentor evaluation has a problem in melange and isn't opened yet
20100712 19:39:43< timotei> maybe fendrin could send you his link (since it's not personalised)
20100712 19:39:56< fendrin> timotei: Well, your code is not as clean as the one from crab as example. But I guess you are doing fine enough. 
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20100712 19:40:53< timotei> fendrin: I didn't see Crab's code :(
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20100712 19:43:06< billynux> fendrin, Since we are talking about code cleanliness, have you seen any of mine? :)
20100712 19:43:16< timotei> :-)
20100712 19:44:51< timotei> fendrin: but I hope in the next milestone - polishing, I'll just make it better ;)
20100712 19:45:05< timotei> fendrin: since, I know there are parts where it can be improved
20100712 19:45:07< gabba> boucman: hmm, about the being on schedule, do you think I'm late? If you look at http://wiki.wesnoth.org/GSoC-WesnothWhiteboard_Gabba#Calendar, I only have 4 pretty easy non-optional tasks that are not green, and the deadline I had set for mid-term is July 16, so those should be done by then.
20100712 19:48:05< boucman> I consider 7.2 implemented... it's just a question of adding a shortcut, the backend is there (keep it black to so we remember to add it, though)
20100712 19:48:47< boucman> and don't you take ZOC into account ? i'm not sure what you mean by 5.1
20100712 19:50:03< gabba> 5.1 is veryfying that the ctrl+v display uses the planned unit map. All I need to do is probably to add 2 lines of code, but I don't know until I've done it.
20100712 19:50:15< gabba> verifying*
20100712 19:50:28 * boucman has no idea what ctrl-v is a shortcut for...
20100712 19:50:46< timotei> paste :P
20100712 19:51:17< boucman> show ennemy moves
20100712 19:51:26< gabba> ctrl-b is best enemy moves, and ctrl-v is... not paste (sorry timotei :P), but show possible enemy moves
20100712 19:51:30< timotei> oh, in wesnoth
20100712 19:51:54< alink> at least, hovering on a enemy indicated the correct ZoC effect
20100712 19:52:19< gabba> alink: yes, since I do the necessary magic in the mouseover code
20100712 19:52:35< gabba> not sure the "show enemy moves" uses the same code path
20100712 19:52:41< boucman> gabba: hmm, 5.1 is probably trivial, 7.2 I consider done 8.1 isn't really specific, 3.4 is the only tricky one
20100712 19:52:57< alink> mmmh, a bit disturbing with the current "ghost = future", but I suppose it's expected when wb is on
20100712 19:53:02< gabba> 3.4 is done, really, just needs some arrow images
20100712 19:53:05< boucman> do we have situations where we can do conflicts at this point ?
20100712 19:53:09< timotei> ok, sent the proposal
20100712 19:53:48< timotei> bleah, taking non-sense :)), the midterm evaluation
20100712 19:53:54< timotei> s/taking/talking
20100712 19:54:05< billynux> timotei, :)
20100712 19:54:19< boucman> alink: it will probably be less disturbing once we have tweaked ghost a little more to be more visible. Those tweaks are fundamental from an UI point of iew, but I'd like to have input from other UI experts ( eleazar__ is busy right now)
20100712 19:54:28< timotei> ok, now back to work
20100712 19:54:52< boucman> gabba: in that case, you can probably finish before the 116 :P
20100712 19:55:00< gabba> boucman: off the top of my head, only a wml event can do this (but those crash the game instead); and I haven't waded into what happens after a turn ends, units die, etc
20100712 19:55:35< gabba> boucman: the 116?
20100712 19:55:40< timotei> 16
20100712 19:55:41< boucman> the 16
20100712 19:55:45< gabba> lol
20100712 19:55:45< alink> boucman: well, "present" unit will stay "real" and what I mean is to see them not having ZoC effect on the enemy's reachable zone
20100712 19:56:08< alink> but it's only visual, ZoC impact should be used like that, it's useful
20100712 19:56:31< boucman> alink: well, I think that the user will be thinking of future position when pressing ctrl-v so "in action" it will probably not be that disturbing
20100712 19:57:42< alink> ok, btw is there still a plan for a hotkey to visualize the final expected result as "real" ?
20100712 19:58:46< boucman> alink: no, keeping the future was quite costy code-wise, and that one of the tipping argument for defaulting to present
20100712 19:59:41< alink> it's indeed simpler like that, but prevent to give some useful info
20100712 19:59:54< boucman> alink: yes, it's a compromise...
20100712 19:59:54< alink> mainly predicted sidebar info
20100712 19:59:55< gabba> alink, boucman: well, a hotkey that sets future units as solid and current units as ghosted wouldn't be hard to set up (even though there are issues, like determining which is the last action of each unit)
20100712 20:00:42< boucman> gabba: it can be done in o(n) where n is the number of planned actions with a simple visitor
20100712 20:00:56< boucman> it's trivial by looping the action list backward
20100712 20:01:21< gabba> boucman: ah yes, actually I had trouble with that, but it's because I needed to maintain it together with a lot of other stuff for the future view
20100712 20:01:32-!- mordante [~mordante@wesnoth/developer/mordante] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100712 20:01:37< billynux> hi mordante 
20100712 20:01:41< gabba> if it's just for a view that appears when you hold a key, it should be no problem
20100712 20:01:43< mordante> servus
20100712 20:01:45< mordante> hi billynux 
20100712 20:01:52< gabba> hi mord
20100712 20:01:56< gabba> -ante
20100712 20:02:01< mordante> hi gabba 
20100712 20:02:16 * gabba trusts the tab key too much
20100712 20:02:21< billynux> :)
20100712 20:02:24< mordante> :-)
20100712 20:03:13< boucman> gabba: let's not implement it for the moment, we'll keep the idea as an  option if you have extra time
20100712 20:03:23< gabba> yup
20100712 20:03:42< alink> yeah, it's not that important
20100712 20:04:02< boucman> so, from a calandar point of view, we're good... the only feature missing is ctrl-v and chances are high that it's just surrounding a call to the pathfinder with the right map-changing code
20100712 20:04:38< alink> but could still be very useful for all adjacent-ability effect
20100712 20:04:38< billynux> mordante, seen the latest updates? the progress bar seems to be working (not an easy rewrite)
20100712 20:04:40< boucman> and we only need recruit/recall handling to have a playable prototype (and maybe better handling of multiple planned moves on the same hex
20100712 20:05:14< billynux> mordante, I'm working on the server implementation, handshake looks good, but I have to set up the connecting client to start working on header-first mode
20100712 20:05:14< mordante> billynux, not yet catching up with the chatlog, but my compiler is running
20100712 20:06:34< gabba> boucman: I think that the wb could be considered playable even w/o recruit/recall handling, even if they're a nice and useful feature
20100712 20:07:07< boucman> yes, it just recruits immediately
20100712 20:07:21< billynux> mordante, ok, reminds me of the "my code's compiling" strip in xkcd
20100712 20:07:39< mordante> I don't have woodens swords over here ;-)
20100712 20:07:44< mordante> wooden*
20100712 20:07:51< billynux> :)
20100712 20:08:20< boucman> hmm, when planning a fight, you don't choose the weapon at planning time... is that a feature ?
20100712 20:08:32< alink> boucman: i was typing that :-)
20100712 20:08:45< fendrin> billynux: Sorry, no. Haven't looked at your work.
20100712 20:08:56< boucman> it seems to make sense in the "not cluttery UI with details" sense since usually weapon choice is trivial and it doesn't disturb from the flow of thinking when planning
20100712 20:09:32< mordante> timotei, I don't see the mentor form yet (and it shouldn't be available for another hour)
20100712 20:09:50< alink> boucman: well the problem is that the attack dialog provides a lot of info. Even if the choice was not recorded, it would be still useful
20100712 20:09:53< gabba> boucman, alink: I guess it is (and uh... it was slightly easier that way :-[ ). But seriously, until you know the outcome of one attack, you probably don't want to choose the next one.
20100712 20:09:53< timotei> well, it seems students are favorites
20100712 20:09:54< timotei> :D
20100712 20:10:01< fendrin> billynux: But to be honest, I am not the c++ coding god. I am not exactly qualified to judge your work correctly. I am a little better at coding java.
20100712 20:10:14< boucman> alink: good point, I had forgot it as a reading tool
20100712 20:10:28< gabba> alink: that, and showing the attack dialog twice would be cumbersome
20100712 20:10:52< mordante> billynux, file a FR in the melange tracker for the milestone tracker ;-)
20100712 20:10:57< boucman> I wouldn't be disturbed if you had to cancel/replan an attack to change the weapon
20100712 20:11:37< billynux> shikadibot, FR?
20100712 20:11:38< shikadibot> Sorry, I don't know what 'FR' means...
20100712 20:11:46< billynux> mordante, feature request?
20100712 20:11:50< timotei> feature request
20100712 20:11:53< mordante> billynux, yes
20100712 20:11:54< billynux> thanks
20100712 20:12:01< boucman> but alink has a good point... it would be nice to be able to review the attack dialog too... though it doesn't make much sense except for the first attack anyway (unless you want to deal into the cumulative probablility area... the AI does it so there is probably some code relative to that somewhere...
20100712 20:12:19< boucman> and that's a feature MP players would probably fall in love with :P
20100712 20:12:31< billynux> good idea... I'll see if I get a reply from my comments. If I don't I'll file the FR
20100712 20:12:46< billynux> I was pretty detailed in my comment and suggested various features
20100712 20:13:19< mordante> billynux, what do you mean with header-first mode, message header?
20100712 20:13:31< billynux> coupling the task tracker to an issue tracker is an interesting thing (bonus points if it works with googlecode, gna, etc...
20100712 20:13:40< billynux> mordante, yes
20100712 20:13:51< mordante> ok
20100712 20:13:51< billynux> I added this switch to ana some time ago
20100712 20:14:15< alink> gabba: simply record the weapon choice seems easy to code and for the user too. Most of the time it will be the best weapon/range anyway
20100712 20:14:26< billynux> in header-first mode you expect a 32bit number indicating how much info you should receive
20100712 20:14:43< mordante> boucman, gabba I thought it was also the idea with WB to also select the weapon 
20100712 20:14:57< alink> gabba: in needed add a button "ask later" next to OK, cancel, or something like that
20100712 20:14:58< Upthorn> timotei, boucman, Crab_, I have completed my midterm survey on melange.
20100712 20:15:13< alink> *if needed
20100712 20:15:18< Upthorn> timotei: you were looking for me yesterday while I was asleep, I believe
20100712 20:15:28< timotei> oh hi Upthorn 
20100712 20:15:47< boucman> mordante: it is the idea, we are doing an inventory of where we are relative to midterm...
20100712 20:15:52< timotei> nothing special. just wanted to see how's your hand :-)
20100712 20:16:06< mordante> boucman, ok
20100712 20:16:23< gabba> ok, by popular demand, the attack dialog will be shown before the move. I really hate the idea of showing it twice though, that's horrible for fast players.
20100712 20:16:28< Upthorn> it is really stiff
20100712 20:16:41< boucman> gabba: ??? why would you show it twice ?
20100712 20:16:50< alink> <alink> gabba: simply record the weapon choice seems easy to code and for the user too. Most of the time it will be the best weapon/range anyway
20100712 20:16:54< mordante> billynux, regarding r44122 you added some comment to network.hpp would be nice if it was doxygen style
20100712 20:16:56< Upthorn> I think I kept bandages pressed too tightly, and the scab formed in one unbroken section as a result
20100712 20:17:10< alink> gabba: that's already what the move+attack code do
20100712 20:17:23< boucman> yes, include the weapon choice in the attack action... you already have the perfect place to store it...
20100712 20:17:38< Upthorn> so it hurts a great deal whenever I fold my thumb in close to my palm, or stretch it away
20100712 20:17:53< billynux> mordante, ok
20100712 20:17:58< gabba> alink: yup, you're probably right. But with no visual indicator of what weapon was chosen, the player might forget what he picked
20100712 20:18:21< gabba> fortunately as you say, there's usually one clear good attack choice
20100712 20:19:04< mordante> well I'm happy you already decided comment was a good thing
20100712 20:19:06< alink> gabba: good point, but just need to find a way to access/see that info
20100712 20:19:15< boucman> gabba: yes, that part of the UI will need some thinking, a way to redisplay the attack dialog when selecting an attack action would be nice...
20100712 20:19:41< CIA-87> billynux * r44127 /trunk/src/network.hpp: Changed comments to doxygen style.
20100712 20:19:45< billynux> mordante, it was only by trial and error that I got it to work
20100712 20:19:45< boucman> esp when we have cumulative statistics and reordering moves change them...
20100712 20:19:47< gabba> alink: "just need to find a way" eh? creepy UI horrors lurk behind those words
20100712 20:19:56< alink> gabba: btw record weapon choice is  needed if one day you want to have some kill probability stats 
20100712 20:20:26< boucman> I don't think rechoosing the attack as a result of looking at the attack dialog is a big deal
20100712 20:20:31< gabba> alink: very true
20100712 20:20:45< mordante> billynux, it's the result that counts ;-) of course life could be easier if we had more documentation
20100712 20:20:53< alink> gabba: I don't think so, let me think about it to see if I can come up with somethinh
20100712 20:21:01< gabba> boucman: but that means showing it twice, or am I misunderstanding?
20100712 20:21:26< billynux> mordante, indeed
20100712 20:21:36< boucman> yes, when the player don't remember what he chose, you can redisplay the dialog, maybe with the previous choice as default
20100712 20:21:50< billynux> mordante, I'm concerned about some OO principles violations of late
20100712 20:21:55< alink> boucman: I had in mind: keep the previously selected choice
20100712 20:22:01< billynux> mordante, and I think ANA's design should be reviewed
20100712 20:22:21< alink> boucman: maybe with a combo "don't ask again"
20100712 20:22:47< gabba> boucman: ok, then we're all on the same page, but the problem is, how can the player show that dialog again
20100712 20:22:53< mordante> billynux, just watched the progress bar, it updates to 100% and then jumps back to 0% is that a bug in your code or in the display code?
20100712 20:23:16< boucman> gabba: good question, that's a "detail" 
20100712 20:23:32< boucman> or more precisely, we can decide that as a second step...
20100712 20:23:37< billynux> mordante, was the progress leading up to 100% ok?
20100712 20:23:51< mordante> billynux, how often do you update the bar, the steps are now very small so hard to read the KB downloaded
20100712 20:23:56< boucman> we could decide that double clicking on a ghost does something... depending on the planned action it matches to
20100712 20:24:22< billynux> mordante, I don't, invocations are made to me asking of the current stats
20100712 20:24:27< mordante> yes up to 100% seemed ok, unfortunately shadowmaster hasn't uploaded his insane large addons yet ;-))
20100712 20:24:37< alink> gabba: it already do something (but not sure what), but clicking on the ghost and reattack the enemy seems a possible way
20100712 20:24:45< mordante> ok
20100712 20:25:11< alink> gabba: ah no that means "attack again"
20100712 20:25:11< billynux> mordante, well... I'm not sure if it should be label a bug of the ANA implementation
20100712 20:25:34< billynux> mordante, this is how it works: after a packet has been completed, I update the statistics
20100712 20:25:35< mordante> depends on who feeds it the info of 0% completed
20100712 20:25:36< Upthorn> I will be surprised if it does not scar :(
20100712 20:26:02< mordante> regarding the OO violations, where do we violate it wesnoth or ana and what do you wish to change in the design of ana?
20100712 20:26:04< gabba> alink: it does attack again? yet another unplanned "feature" :P
20100712 20:26:15< gabba> but not if you plan a move after the attack, I guess
20100712 20:26:18< timotei> Upthorn: why not scar?
20100712 20:26:22< billynux> mordante, hm... let me try resetting the current_max too (most likely show 100% after completion, but 0/0KB)
20100712 20:26:45< billynux> mordante, OO violations in stats.hpp, class stats_collector
20100712 20:26:48< alink> gabba: no it does not, but it should if the unit had several attacks, and so the UI should probably work like that
20100712 20:26:52< billynux> mordante, check the latest changes to the file
20100712 20:27:19< boucman> alink: can a unit have multiple attacks ??
20100712 20:27:44< gabba> boucman: evil (but fun) UMC stuff
20100712 20:27:45< alink> gabba, boucman: yes but don't worry about non-standard WML stuff
20100712 20:28:05< billynux> mordante, hm... maybe not an OO violation... I thought the public interface would be exposed to ANA's users
20100712 20:28:25< boucman> well, we have to somehow know what an action will do, if we take all crazy wml into account, we can't make any assumption on the result of any action...
20100712 20:28:51< mordante> billynux, which rev should I look at?
20100712 20:29:24< alink> gabba: what is the hotkey to delete an action?
20100712 20:29:27< gabba> boucman: true
20100712 20:29:53< gabba> alink: hotkeys are y (execute), h (delete) and pgup/pgdown (reorder)
20100712 20:29:57< billynux> mordante, don't know off the top of my head, but guessing the last one (or two) that changed the stats.hpp file. Doesn't gna support this view?
20100712 20:30:06< gabba> and results depend on hover/selection
20100712 20:30:18< mordante> billynux, ok I'll just update to the latest rev
20100712 20:31:19< boucman> gabba: is WB still limited to debug mode ?
20100712 20:31:26< alink> gabba: so if I think i have forget an attack choice, I can still delete that attack and redo it
20100712 20:31:33< gabba> boucman: yes
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20100712 20:32:08< boucman> you probably remove that at this point, we are in trunk, and afaik it's impossible to play MP with debug mode...
20100712 20:32:18< gabba> alink: true. It's only annoying if you have defined further actions.
20100712 20:32:35< gabba> boucman: ok, it's a tiny change
20100712 20:34:09< billynux> mordante, pff, the class hierarchy in ANA is making me dizzy :(
20100712 20:35:00< mordante> billynux, regarding the stats_collector, most function in the header should be in the implementation
20100712 20:35:27< mordante> normally you only put the simple setter and getter in the header
20100712 20:35:41< alink> gabba: I have a possible solution: add a hotkey "modify" which allows to modify an action (and auto reselect the affect unit). Of course, consistency check is needed after that
20100712 20:36:14< billynux> mordante, yes, agreed, no inlining, but what I really don't like is that you can get the stats_collector object and directly log something on it
20100712 20:37:33< billynux> i.e. from wesnoth's code: server->stats_collector()->log_buffer( ... ); // <- this sucks big time
20100712 20:38:08< alink> gabba: with that checking/changing weapon choice should be easy
20100712 20:38:37< gabba> alink: that could be an idea
20100712 20:38:40< mordante> can't you return a copy of the class or a small struct showing the current stats?
20100712 20:38:55< mordante> s/showing/holding/
20100712 20:38:58< billynux> mordante, yes... I'll break the class up
20100712 20:39:04< alink> gabba: seems also useful to slightly tweak a move. the current delete is not very handy for that
20100712 20:39:29< billynux> mordante, It was the original idea, you would get_stats() and then use the abstract stats interface
20100712 20:39:41< boucman> alink: I agree to that, but we'll have to have a more mouse friendly interface at some point, to allow a more or less mouse only game
20100712 20:40:34< boucman> right-click menu on ghost could allow us to do most/all of that, but double clickin on a unit should probably execute the first move for that unit
20100712 20:40:52< billynux> mordante, do you think the stats.hpp should have a corresponding .cpp or just that the methods should be off-class declaration?
20100712 20:40:53< boucman> and some action on click/dbl-click on a ghost could be useful too
20100712 20:41:09< alink> boucman: then at that point, maybe drag&drop the ghost could be used for modifying this action
20100712 20:41:19< mordante> billynux, normally you add a .cpp to contain that code
20100712 20:41:27< gabba> btw, do you guys like how I do highlight now (not the visual quality of course) ?
20100712 20:41:34< boucman> alink: well, drag and drop might be complicated to do in our timeframe...
20100712 20:41:40< mordante> inlining large chunks of code makes no sense and increases compilation time
20100712 20:41:47< boucman> gabba: looking
20100712 20:41:54< mordante> something wesnoth isn't too shy on
20100712 20:41:58< alink> boucman: that's why I said "then at that point" ;-)
20100712 20:42:46< alink> boucman: I thought that the timeframe was for the keyboard (but working) way, and mouse-only later
20100712 20:43:14< boucman> it is, but i'm not sure the whole d&d would fit in the SoC timeframe
20100712 20:43:15< alink> gabba: highlight was deactivated recently 
20100712 20:43:54< gabba> not *my* highlight :P
20100712 20:43:54< billynux> mordante, I know, I just liked keeping the ana interface on one hand and the asio implementation on the other, and I guess I just wasn't consistent there
20100712 20:43:56< alink> boucman: I didn't want to suggest d&d for SoC timeframe, I suggested a modify hotkey
20100712 20:43:59< boucman> gabba: it was weird at first but after a couple of minutes I find it easy to move... the only remark is that you highlight in TC/White, but IIRC white is a possible team color...
20100712 20:44:20< boucman> alink: yes, that's fine
20100712 20:44:42< gabba> my approach for highlight is to make very clear which action is gonna be affected if you press a hotkey... that's the action in white
20100712 20:45:00< gabba> boucman: is there a free bright color that's not used for teams?
20100712 20:45:32< alink> gabba: oops sry, I thought you asked about hex highlight :-/
20100712 20:45:49< boucman> gabba: that's not true, if you have multiple moves on a unit and you hover on a ghost, it's not the first action that is highlighted
20100712 20:46:03< boucman> and if you hover on the unit, the whole set of actions is highlighted in red
20100712 20:46:28< boucman> (I like your current way better, btw, it makes following the move by highlighting its part one by one easy to do...
20100712 20:46:42< boucman> unless there are multiple units that end in a single place
20100712 20:48:27< gabba> boucman: well it's true for delete and reorder
20100712 20:48:34< alink> gabba: IIRC each team has several colors see team.cpp: around line 270; maybe they are different enough
20100712 20:48:49< boucman> http://imagebin.org/105015 <= how I imagine WB on a crowded frontline :P
20100712 20:49:52< mordante> billynux, ok, and of course staying consistent is hard
20100712 20:50:18< gabba> boucman: pretty impossible to know what's going at a glance, isn't it :P ?
20100712 20:50:31< gabba> better arrows will help but not solve it completely
20100712 20:50:58< gabba> s/what's going/what's going on
20100712 20:51:01< Ivanovic> looks like some kind of modern arts
20100712 20:51:03< Ivanovic> am i right?
20100712 20:51:12< billynux> mordante, specially tinkering with a large code base. It's grown considerably I think, I just hope that it grew for good :)
20100712 20:51:13< Ivanovic> is this some picasso fake?
20100712 20:51:15< Ivanovic> ;)
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20100712 20:51:31< gabba> Ivanovic: uh yes, it's an abstract work by some crazy artists inspired by wesnoth.
20100712 20:51:56< boucman> gabba: well, highlighting with mouse helps a lot for readability too... and this is a feature, not luck :P
20100712 20:52:07< mordante> billynux, even with a smaller codebase it's hard and often means reevaluate your interface
20100712 20:52:52< boucman> gabba: crash
20100712 20:52:55< boucman> wesnoth-debug: src/whiteboard/move.cpp:169: virtual void wb::move::apply_temp_modifier(unit_map&): Assertion `unit_.get_location() == source_hex_' failed.
20100712 20:52:55< boucman> Abandon
20100712 20:53:02< boucman> trying to reproduce...
20100712 20:53:16< billynux> mordante, do you think I should concentrate on it now? (the redesign) or finish the server and then look at it?
20100712 20:53:18< alink> note that on real front, a lot of units don't move much but just attack the nearest enemy 
20100712 20:53:28< gabba> boucman: wml event in the test scenario?
20100712 20:53:35< boucman> ok, easy to reproduce (you're gonna hate me)
20100712 20:53:45< alink> but indeed few unit switches will be messy
20100712 20:53:50< boucman> plan two moves with a unit, execute the first, undo => crash
20100712 20:54:02< mordante> depends if you know for sure you can come up with a final version now, change it now else wait until later (and I expect the latter)
20100712 20:54:06< gabba> boucman: no? really?
20100712 20:54:22 * gabba grinds teeth and goes to test
20100712 20:54:29< boucman> i'll test again to make sure there are no wml involved, but yes, I think that's it
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20100712 20:55:03< boucman> gabba: you also need to move the mouse, apparently :P
20100712 20:55:35< gabba> boucman: reproduced
20100712 20:55:45< gabba> thankfully I know exactly what's going on there
20100712 20:55:55< boucman> :)
20100712 20:55:59< alink> gabba: attacking adjacent unit not possible in wb ?
20100712 20:56:03< boucman> crash are the easiet kind of bugs :P
20100712 20:56:48< gabba> alink: should be possible
20100712 20:57:21< alink> gabba: well, seems not, a move is needed
20100712 20:57:59< boucman> testing....
20100712 20:58:18< gabba> alink: damn, a regression
20100712 20:58:29< gabba> reproduced it
20100712 20:58:57< gabba> alink: this one is gonna be a lot more baffling to debug
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20100712 21:02:47< billynux> ahh... debug... the price we must pay for the fun of coding absent-minded (a price I pay too often)
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20100712 21:04:01< alink> gabba; seems to fix it http://wesnoth.pastebin.com/9jzebibG
20100712 21:04:07< alink> but just a random guess
20100712 21:04:46< alink> well the if/else is maybe useless now 
20100712 21:05:34< gabba> alink: ha ha, interesting if/else indeed
20100712 21:05:45< mordante> hmm the iPhone thread is getting long, I still wonder whether there's a GPL violation or not...
20100712 21:06:07< mordante> billynux, nice statement
20100712 21:06:13< billynux> mordante, my thoughts exactly, but it's an interesting read all the same
20100712 21:06:38< mordante> true
20100712 21:06:39< billynux> and, as it stands, it looks to be a very gray area whether or not it is a GPL violation
20100712 21:07:06< mordante> and it might even be it's a violation in one country and non in another
20100712 21:07:26< gabba> billynux: I'm sure I'm absent-minded sometimes, but my bugs are more a result of interaction with some wesnoth code that I haven't explored to its furthest ramifications, or just refactoring so many times that I forget some related changes I should make.
20100712 21:07:59< timotei> let's just drop a brick in Apple's head and that's it
20100712 21:08:13< billynux> gabba, sounds like me too, I made wrong assumptions about how I was called from the game
20100712 21:08:14< gabba> alink: thanks for spotting this location, I'll need to replace the if condition with something else probably
20100712 21:08:15< mordante> timotei, and that would help how?
20100712 21:08:38< timotei> don't know, maybe will get apple think agan about stupid "restrictions"
20100712 21:08:39< alink> gabba: np
20100712 21:08:51< billynux> gabba, and refactoring has induced many bugs as well. Luckily, cleaning afterwards removed them
20100712 21:09:03< billynux> gabba, and, BTW, nice mail to the iPhone thread :)
20100712 21:09:08 * gabba prays: oh well-designed and documented interfaces, come to our aid in this time of need
20100712 21:09:20< alink> gabba: btw about my proposed "modify" action, it could as well replace "delete". If it auto reselect the unit, just hit right click (which always cancel the path) to delete the action. I mention that in case double-click was used for delete
20100712 21:09:46< alink> *planned to be used 
20100712 21:10:05< alink> or it was "execute"?
20100712 21:10:10< billynux> gabba, :)
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20100712 21:11:13< alink> a proposal for WB arrows look http://xkcd.com/657/large/  <:o)
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20100712 21:11:45< gabba> billynux: thanks. these discussions about free software are often hard
20100712 21:13:09< billynux> indeed, I was about to send an email about calling to distinguish if there is a clear violation of the GPL or not
20100712 21:13:44< gabba> timotei: yeah, except dropping a brick on Apple's head will also hit Kyle Poole who seems like a nice guy (even though he's kind of making profit from the fact users can't easily exchange binaries, I guess), and the hundreds (thousands?) of iPhone wesnoth players
20100712 21:13:52< billynux> only after that should we talk about whether somebody's code should be removed, or if the game should be relicensed
20100712 21:14:42< mordante> billynux, anything you wish to discuss now?
20100712 21:14:42< billynux> gabba, is he profiting individually?
20100712 21:14:49< mordante> :qa
20100712 21:15:09< billynux> mordante, I think there was a question pending on what I should concentrate right now
20100712 21:15:13-!- alink [~alink@wesnoth/developer/alink] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20100712 21:15:22< gabba> billynux: yes, he splits profits with the wesnoth project
20100712 21:15:28< billynux> 1- completing the server functionality, 2- redesign, cleaning, refactoring
20100712 21:15:31< mordante> <mordante> depends if you know for sure you can come up with a final version now, change it now else wait until later (and I expect the latter)
20100712 21:16:08< gabba> billynux: profiting from free software is ok, doing it with forced restrictions is not (not to say Kyle does it, the situation is complicated)
20100712 21:16:11< billynux> ah, ok, yes, I expect to have a functioning implementation ASAP (doesn't mean soon, but this is my next goal)
20100712 21:16:11< mordante> so I expect working on the server is the best way and then from what you learned there look at a redesign
20100712 21:16:27< billynux> mordante, good, agreed
20100712 21:16:36< billynux> gabba, agreed too
20100712 21:17:03< mordante> billynux, ok
20100712 21:17:04< billynux> mordante, also, I dislike the size of network_manager_ana.cpp file, but I'll look at it after I finish this implementation too
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20100712 21:17:47< mordante> yes personally I like to design upfront as a prototype implement and see how well the upfront design really was
20100712 21:17:58< mordante> rinse and repeat
20100712 21:18:05< billynux> mordante, exactly
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20100712 21:18:19< billynux> mordante, now I know how the current interface is used
20100712 21:18:37< mordante> yup 
20100712 21:18:41< billynux> and I already added the necessary features to ANA
20100712 21:18:56< billynux> I'm just hoping this phase ends up soon :)
20100712 21:19:13< mordante> btw I'll probably fill out the google form tomorrow 
20100712 21:19:36< billynux> which I expect it too... but code has a nice little way of running into trouble... or null pointers...
20100712 21:19:52< billynux> mordante, ok, I did so today, no rush. Did you look at the questions?
20100712 21:20:01< timotei> ok guys, I'm done for today
20100712 21:20:11< timotei> good night billynux mordante gabba fendrin 
20100712 21:20:18< timotei> oh an Upthorn 
20100712 21:20:18< billynux> g'night timotei 
20100712 21:20:27< gabba> 'night timotei
20100712 21:20:32< mordante> night timotei 
20100712 21:20:49< boucman> mordante: do you have the evaluation link on your mentor page ? it seems not to appear for me..
20100712 21:20:51< timotei> haha, the email is faster than the bot =))
20100712 21:20:54< mordante> billynux, no last time I looked they weren't there yet and I'm pretty tired
20100712 21:21:03< CIA-87> timotei * r44128 /trunk/utils/java/ (19 files in 11 dirs): eclipse plugin: wml grammar - add syntax highlighting for macros
20100712 21:21:12-!- timotei [~Timotei@wesnoth/developer/timotei] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
20100712 21:21:20< mordante> boucman, I didn't see it about ten minutes ago
20100712 21:21:32< boucman> ok, so I'm not dreaming :P
20100712 21:21:37-!- Upthorn [~ogmar@adsl-75-26-196-123.dsl.scrm01.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
20100712 21:21:47< billynux> mordante, have you tested wesnothd / wesnoth communication?
20100712 21:22:37< mordante> boucman, just logged in again and it's there completely at the bottom of the left hand side is a red link
20100712 21:22:56< mordante> billynux, not today did you improve things there as well?
20100712 21:23:06< boucman> yes, got it...
20100712 21:23:21< billynux> mordante, some, I'll commit it later on
20100712 21:23:44< mordante> billynux, I can't test not committed code :-P
20100712 21:23:45< billynux> mordante, I'm now getting into trouble after setting the client to header-first mode
20100712 21:23:57< billynux> mordante, :)
20100712 21:24:19< billynux> mordante, I was asking about the already-commited code though
20100712 21:24:49< mordante> billynux, I didn't test it today only yesterday
20100712 21:24:49< billynux> mordante, anyway, after setting it like that it sends a huge-size header, so something is off
20100712 21:24:58< billynux> ok, np
20100712 21:25:34< mordante> I'll test tomorrow
20100712 21:26:21< mordante> night
20100712 21:26:37< billynux> night
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20100712 21:40:15< boucman> gabba: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com/wurz7ejT <= still a bit early to post on the dev ML, but we can start working on the text since we are almost there
20100712 21:40:42< boucman> note that I wrote it as if I was posting it, but you probably be the one posting, so feel free to rewrite with your own words
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20100712 21:42:09< gabba> boucman: the text is good
20100712 21:42:26< gabba> we probably should do this ourselves before unleashing the lions
20100712 21:42:48< boucman> yes, of course, I planned to :)
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20100712 21:48:53< boucman> gabba: apart from testing a little, what else do you think is needed before we call for some testing on trunk (i'd like to have an mp dev or two to test before that, too, but i'm more interested on the code aspect)
20100712 21:49:09< boucman> I think a little work on the attack dialog we discussed today would be good
20100712 21:49:27< boucman> since it's part of the "streamlining the thought process" part
20100712 21:49:37< boucman> maybe have a "consider as dead" action...
20100712 21:52:07< gabba> boucman: wml events not making the whole thing explode would be good I think... not all of them crash the wb though
20100712 21:52:46< boucman> gabba: no, that's not needed for early MP testing, normal MP maps don't hae weird WML
20100712 21:53:18< gabba> ok
20100712 21:54:44< boucman> though we could add a note in the text about that :)
20100712 21:55:27< boucman> * weird UI related WML tend to crash the game, so no testing with Wesband :P
20100712 21:55:37< boucman> added to my version of the text
20100712 21:55:41< shadowmaster> gaaah. The mysql documentation on my laptop already says "Oracle" instead of "Sun Microsystems"! /o\
20100712 21:56:26< gabba> boucman: yes, good idea. I can't really list what's missing off the top of my head, though. This little MP would really be needed.
20100712 21:56:31< gabba> tomorrow
20100712 21:57:00< boucman> gabba: no, not tomorrow for me 
20100712 21:57:07< boucman> july 13 is party night in france
20100712 21:57:07< gabba> shadowmaster: hurk. Oracle.
20100712 21:57:15< boucman> since july 14 is hangover day :P
20100712 21:57:30< gabba> boucman: oh yeah, Fête Nationale's eve.
20100712 21:58:04< gabba> all the French in Montréal will be celebrating too
20100712 21:58:10< boucman> hehe
20100712 21:58:24< gabba> boucman: ok then, thursday or friday if you can, just tell me
20100712 21:58:47< boucman> last year I had the chance to have a friend who has a flat near the seine, we climbed on the roof and I took incredible pictures of the fireworks on the eiffel tower...
20100712 21:58:56< gabba> but by then I should have my list of stuff to improve (and fixed most of them, hopefully :P)
20100712 21:59:05< boucman> maybe wensday evening, 
20100712 21:59:14< gabba> wow that must have been amazing
20100712 21:59:19< boucman> gabba: you can also playtest with someone else
20100712 21:59:25< gabba> boucman: sure
20100712 22:00:09< gabba> nope, wednesday evening I have something
20100712 22:02:27< boucman> oh well, let's plan it for "next time we meet"
20100712 22:02:28< boucman> :P
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20100712 22:22:29< shadowmaster> wesbot: bug 15466
20100712 22:22:30< wesbot> Bug #15466  Assigned to: None  Status: None  Priority: 1 - Later
20100712 22:22:30< wesbot> Summary: Add a key that defines the image that appears in the image box in the sidebar
20100712 22:22:33< wesbot> Original submission: There should be a key for [unit_type] codeblocks that def
20100712 22:22:36< wesbot> ine what image appears in the image box in the sidebar when the unit is selected
20100712 22:22:39< wesbot> URL: https://gna.org/bugs/?15466
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20100712 22:46:05< CIA-87> boucman * r44129 /trunk/data/core/ (25 files in 2 dirs): more stonebridge images, also rename them to their final name
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20100712 23:05:49< billynux> brb,15'
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20100712 23:06:19< boucman> night all
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20100712 23:10:29< [Relic]> Hello :)
20100712 23:12:11< Crab_> hi, [Relic]
20100712 23:14:08< [Relic]> :)
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--- Log closed Tue Jul 13 00:00:43 2010