--- Log opened Sun Jul 25 00:00:32 2010
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20100725 00:05:25< shadowmaster> phew
20100725 00:05:31< shadowmaster> I finished updating the FAQ in the wiki
20100725 00:06:36< PetePorty> shadowmaster, wanna play?
20100725 00:07:01< PetePorty> default era, the freelands?
20100725 00:07:15< shadowmaster> no, I'll go do something else.
20100725 00:07:20< PetePorty> :(
20100725 00:07:22< PetePorty> ok...
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20100725 03:25:07< CIA-87> alink * r44661 /trunk/src/game.cpp: 
20100725 03:25:07< CIA-87> Halve starting time of test scenario
20100725 03:25:07< CIA-87> by skipping the first cache reading/building done for the unused main menu.
20100725 03:25:10< CIA-87> alink * r44662 /trunk/src/game.cpp: 
20100725 03:25:10< CIA-87> Halve starting time for editor when using --editor
20100725 03:25:10< CIA-87> by skipping the first cache reading/building done for the unused main menu.
20100725 03:25:14< CIA-87> alink * r44663 /trunk/ (data/_main.cfg data/core/_main.cfg src/game.cpp): 
20100725 03:25:14< CIA-87> Show the main menu several times faster by skipping terrain rules (useless there)
20100725 03:25:14< CIA-87> This also speed up the use of '--load'. Add a new define MAIN_MENU for this.
20100725 03:34:47< CIA-87> alink * r44664 /trunk/ (data/_main.cfg data/core/_main.cfg src/game.cpp): Rename MAIN_MENU as TITLE_SCREEN (as in source and also less ambiguous).
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20100725 07:54:36< mordante> servus
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20100725 08:01:29< CIA-87> mordante * r44665 /trunk/ (configure.ac src/Makefile.am): Enable ANA by default for autotools.
20100725 08:01:35< mordante> billynux, ^
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20100725 08:02:22< billynux> hi mordante :)
20100725 08:02:28< mordante> hi billynux 
20100725 08:02:29< billynux> great :)
20100725 08:03:13< billynux> mordante, I was thinking, there is no practical way of canceling a single operation
20100725 08:03:33< billynux> therefore, I was thinking about a cancel_all_operations() instead of cancel( operation_id )
20100725 08:03:50< mordante> what's the problem with canceling a single operation?
20100725 08:04:59< billynux> well, suppose you issue 5 send operations (all under way)
20100725 08:05:04< billynux> and you wish to cancel just one
20100725 08:05:19< billynux> I don't really see how to this from asio's reference
20100725 08:05:40< billynux> mordante, you do however have http://www.boost.org/doc/libs/1_43_0/doc/html/boost_asio/reference/basic_socket/cancel/overload1.html
20100725 08:07:34< billynux> I could manage a strange implementation in asio_sender, where I could keep a shard of operations (who recursively call something like handle_partial_send) and next time a handler is called cancel it... something like that
20100725 08:07:39< billynux> I just don't like it :)
20100725 08:19:07< mordante> hmm yes maybe the cancel_all is easier to do
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20100725 08:34:12< billynux> mordante, I can think of a couple of scenarios where it would be ok for ANA to have this feature, but mostly I don't see as an important one
20100725 08:34:47< billynux> i.e. in my contrived scenarios there would be a simpler way of doing things
20100725 08:35:27< billynux> (e.g. you start sending a big file and in the middle you figure out the receiving end doesn't need it, hence, you cancel it, but in this case you should have figured this out before, etc...)
20100725 08:37:18< mordante> billynux, indeed for most cases that works
20100725 08:38:26< billynux> mordante, any idea on where it would be a _must have_ feature?
20100725 08:40:55< mordante> billynux, at the moment no
20100725 08:42:09< billynux> good, I'll implement it the cancel_all way in ANA and change the new API then
20100725 08:42:34< mordante> ok
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20100725 09:09:05< billynux> mordante, the good thing about this implementation is there is no real overhead of having operation_id
20100725 09:09:19< billynux> I'm about to commit the changes (untested though)
20100725 09:10:32< mordante> ok
20100725 09:10:56< CIA-87> billynux * r44666 /trunk/src/ana/ (5 files in 2 dirs): Added a method to ANA that allows the canceling of all pending asynchronous operations, and in the server you can do this for a particular client as well.
20100725 09:15:24< CIA-87> thespaceinvader * r44667 /trunk/ (17 files in 3 dirs): Add and wire new Pathfinder idle anim by Major. Update changelogs.
20100725 09:16:06< billynux> Funny next commit message :)
20100725 09:16:18< CIA-87> billynux * r44668 /trunk/src/ana/new-wesnoth-network-api.hpp: 
20100725 09:16:18< CIA-87> Updated the new network API proposal to feature canceling all network operations
20100725 09:16:18< CIA-87> instead of a single one. It is a feature downgrade, however I can only think of
20100725 09:16:18< CIA-87> very contrived scenarios on where the latter (cancel per operation) would pose a
20100725 09:16:18< CIA-87> necessary feature and the first wouldn't suffice. So, after consideration it was
20100725 09:16:26< billynux> mordante, ^ :)
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20100725 09:25:55< silene> billynux: the test binary no longer compiles for me
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20100725 09:26:23< silene> tests/test_network_worker.cpp:225: error: undefined reference to 'network_worker_pool::set_use_system_sendfile(bool)'
20100725 09:26:27< CIA-87> thespaceinvader * r44669 /trunk/ (17 files in 3 dirs): Add and wire new Ruffian attack and defence anims by Major. Remove some deprecated images. Update changelogs.
20100725 09:26:43< billynux> silene, ok, was the test binary compiling before with ana disabled?
20100725 09:26:58< silene> yes, otherwise i wouldn't be complaining to you ;-)
20100725 09:27:58< billynux> silene, ok. mordante: are you sure in your enabling of ANA in autotools you are linking to network_worker? :)
20100725 09:30:13< thespaceinvader> don't think i'm goign to get anything done today before I go out, annoyingly
20100725 09:30:37< mordante> silene, not? odd I thought I also compile tested the unit tests :-/ I'll have a look
20100725 09:30:55< silene> mordante: don't bother, i have fixed it locally, i will commit
20100725 09:31:34< mordante> ok
20100725 09:32:24< silene> billynux: the unit tests break bad with network errors; you really should run them before committing things
20100725 09:32:49< billynux> silene, we talked about this with mordante, what are those network errors?
20100725 09:33:13< billynux> I mean, I try to run ./test but get a different unrelated error altogether
20100725 09:33:35< billynux> nothing that seems to make sense, or debugable for that matter
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20100725 09:37:15< silene> billynux: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com/CfwzjCEw
20100725 09:38:41< billynux> silene, network_worker isn't a file relevant to the ANA implementation of the network module, I left it there simply because some other obscure file makes a call directly to it to set a flag
20100725 09:38:45< billynux> (your linker error)
20100725 09:39:11< billynux> network_worker is intended as a network functionality helper file for network.cpp
20100725 09:39:32< billynux> but then (erroneously I would say) some file imports the network_worker header directly and uses it to set a flag
20100725 09:39:45< mordante> I still need to look at the unit tests and see which ones make sense for ANA
20100725 09:39:56< CIA-87> silene * r44670 /trunk/src/Makefile.am: Fixed compilation of unit tests.
20100725 09:40:05< silene> billynux: i don't care about the linker error; what i care about is that the unit tests no longer work
20100725 09:40:18< billynux> the correct way to do that would have been 1- add that method to network.hpp, 2- have network.cpp make the call on network_worker
20100725 09:41:10< silene> and note that the code segfaults in ana, not elsewhere
20100725 09:41:40< billynux> silene, in what line of your pastebin?
20100725 09:42:33< silene> starting from line 87 to the end; in the pastebin, it's an abort, but my previous run was a segfault
20100725 09:43:19< billynux> ok
20100725 09:45:36< billynux> mordante,  hm... so the ana_component destructor is sigfaulting/aborting on the call to server()? boost::get failing? if I construct base_ in  both constructors
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20100725 09:48:40< mordante> odd, will look at it later afk for a while
20100725 09:49:31< billynux> mordante, I'm off to sleep for a while
20100725 09:50:00< billynux> I'll try to log on later today
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20100725 10:18:27< Ivanovic> moin
20100725 10:19:17< CIA-87> thespaceinvader * r44671 /trunk/data/core/about.cfg: Add Major to credits.
20100725 10:24:25< boucman> thespaceinvader: around ?
20100725 10:24:45< thespaceinvader> very briefly
20100725 10:25:02< boucman> mkay...
20100725 10:25:18< boucman> I just realized we included the stone bridges without crediting lurker
20100725 10:25:19< thespaceinvader> 'sup?
20100725 10:25:26< thespaceinvader> ah right
20100725 10:25:27< boucman> but if you're about to leave...
20100725 10:25:31< thespaceinvader> he needs bluenaming?
20100725 10:25:37< thespaceinvader> i can do that in a minute or so
20100725 10:26:32< thespaceinvader> are you OK to PM him for his details and add him to the credits though, boucman ?
20100725 10:27:03< boucman> i'm about to leave too, that's why I was asking :P
20100725 10:27:18< boucman> I can do it, but won't commit it before some time...
20100725 10:27:24< thespaceinvader> ah right
20100725 10:27:29< thespaceinvader> i'll get to it when I get back
20100725 10:27:34< thespaceinvader> i'm only out for the afternoon
20100725 10:27:37< boucman> k, thx
20100725 10:31:24< thespaceinvader> np boucman 
20100725 10:31:27< thespaceinvader> but now, must be off
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20100725 11:55:21< mordante> Ivanovic, I found neither a ballista nor a stiletto in my back so I assume the server survived the doxygen changes
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20100725 12:08:02< grzywacz> mordante, or you haven't checked thoroughly enough ;)
20100725 12:09:48< mordante> grzywacz, I'm quite sure I would at least notice a ballista bolt ;-)
20100725 12:13:44< Ivanovic> mordante: to help you understand the "backstab" part: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fiTEHqAeanw
20100725 12:28:29< mordante> very nice, and it proves my point I would have noticed the ballista ;-)
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20100725 15:26:51< Elvish_Pillager> Leader names automatically changing when controller changes: When does it happen? It seems like it sometimes happens and sometimes doesn't...
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20100725 15:30:07< silene> Elvish_Pillager: concerning recall lists in lua, i don't intend to make it for 1.8, it is too intrusive a change (recall lists are a completely different subsystem wrt unit handling); it works in trunk though but it still needs some testing before i commit it (and currently i have put_unit and put_recall_unit, i have to look if i can merge the two of them)
20100725 15:30:58< Elvish_Pillager> silene: what makes it have to be different from [unstore_unit]?
20100725 15:32:51< silene> Elvish_Pillager: not much from a user point of view, you are free to fire [unstore_unit] when you need to modify units from lua; but in lua, units are a first-class citizen, they are not just wml variables, so it needs a lot more work behind the scenes
20100725 15:33:16< Elvish_Pillager> ugh :/
20100725 15:33:44< Elvish_Pillager> FYI, all my code works with unit tables, using wrapper functions for [store_unit] (and now [unstore_unit]) instead of wesnoth.get_units().
20100725 15:33:53< Elvish_Pillager> because Lua units are confusing.
20100725 15:37:37< silene> i know; it was a trade-off between having a full copy-based system (like plain wml) and being as efficient as the engine (that is, zero copy); i have favored the latter
20100725 15:38:19< Elvish_Pillager> ah: the main advantage is the speed you gain from directly modifying the few values that are included as proxies?
20100725 15:39:43< silene> yes, also moving units on the map, and a few other things; in particular, it was mandatory for things like AIs, otherwise they would have been way too slow
20100725 15:40:17< Elvish_Pillager> you can write AIs in Lua?
20100725 15:40:47< silene> yes (but don't ask me too much about it, i only looked at it from afar, crab did it)
20100725 15:40:54< Elvish_Pillager> Still, woah
20100725 15:40:59< Elvish_Pillager> I might actually do that :o
20100725 15:42:12< silene> take a look at data/ai/scenarios/scenario-lua-ai.cfg, i think it exercises a good number of features
20100725 15:43:30< Elvish_Pillager> silene: does the Lua AI get its own safe context, or can it cheat by modifying things like any Lua script?
20100725 15:44:40< silene> it can cheat; but it's a bad idea, i think; a good use, however, is to read things from the global context
20100725 15:45:08< Elvish_Pillager> it's a bad idea, because...? would it only apply for the host?
20100725 15:45:27< silene> you got it right
20100725 15:45:32< Elvish_Pillager> hmm.
20100725 15:45:41< Elvish_Pillager> It would be nice if I could use this for an EoHS AI.
20100725 15:46:11< Elvish_Pillager> but that would require it either to be able to cheat with synchronization, or to be able to use menu items and [choose]
20100725 15:48:57< silene> using menus from AIs is a long term goal; i think cheating is possible, though i never tried: for instance, having a few units hidden outside the visible map, the AI would move them whenever it needs to transmit data to other clients
20100725 15:49:08< Elvish_Pillager> not in an era
20100725 15:50:59< silene> right
20100725 15:52:16< Elvish_Pillager> and the WML/Lua in events can't even tell if a side is an AI, so no making kludges where events do the "cheating" part of the AI 
20100725 15:52:36< Elvish_Pillager> unless I can make it do some sort of "AI dance" on turn 1 that the WML uses to decide that the side is an AI
20100725 15:54:14< silene> i think [store_side] tells you who is an AI
20100725 15:54:21< Elvish_Pillager> hmm, can AI instruct a unit to move to its own location, or would that just cause an error...?
20100725 15:54:31< Elvish_Pillager> silene: everyone thinks that, but no, it doesn't work in networked games.
20100725 15:54:41< Elvish_Pillager> only the host knows which sides are AI.
20100725 15:54:56< silene> how does it appear, as "network"?
20100725 15:55:03< Elvish_Pillager> I think so
20100725 15:58:39< silene> Elvish_Pillager: it seems to mean: freeze the unit for the turn
20100725 15:58:45< Elvish_Pillager> cool.
20100725 15:58:52< Elvish_Pillager> I can use that as my "AI dance".
20100725 15:59:01< Elvish_Pillager> since players are incapable of it.
20100725 15:59:22< Elvish_Pillager> ...hmm, I wonder if it triggers a moveto event.
20100725 15:59:27 * Elvish_Pillager will test.
20100725 15:59:43< silene> yes, you better test, i think it is highly experimental ground
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20100725 16:22:41< Elvish_Pillager> silene: if you know, does [modify_side] [ai] no longer work?
20100725 16:22:55< Elvish_Pillager> the wiki says it does, but it doesn't seem to (or I'm doing something wrong)
20100725 16:25:25< silene> Elvish_Pillager: it is supposed to (at least the code tests if there is an [ai] subtag in [modify_side])
20100725 16:25:37< Elvish_Pillager> hmm.
20100725 16:26:03< silene> but that rings a bell, you are probably not the first one to have this issue; no idea how it got resolved though (if it got resolved)
20100725 16:26:32< Elvish_Pillager> ...if I can't make free-wheeling modifications of side AI in my era, then this isn't useful anyway :/
20100725 16:28:23< silene> you should ask crab once he logs in; he is our resident expert on ai
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20100725 16:30:11< silene> Elvish_Pillager: this is what i was remembering: https://gna.org/bugs/index.php?16107; not sure how related it is to your issue
20100725 16:33:14< silene> Elvish_Pillager: by the way, perhaps you should try to use [modify_ai] instead of [modify_side], it may be better supported by the current engine
20100725 16:33:26< Elvish_Pillager> modify_ai doesn't appear to support adding engines
20100725 16:33:35-!- alink [~alink@wesnoth/developer/alink] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100725 16:34:17< Elvish_Pillager> (both the wiki and example imply that you can't do lua AI stuff without an [engine] tag, although they don't state it directly...)
20100725 16:38:02< silene> right, you probably can't; no idea where you are allowed to put an [engine] tag though
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20100725 16:38:18< silene> it's really unfortunate crab isn't there
20100725 16:38:26< Elvish_Pillager> directly in a side ai tag...
20100725 16:38:30< ilor> hi all
20100725 16:38:34< Elvish_Pillager> well, I'm sure they will arrive :)
20100725 16:38:35< alink> mordante: caller graph in doxygen, nice :-)  seems handy
20100725 16:38:40< alink> hello ilor
20100725 16:39:54-!- ancestral [~ancestral@97-116-127-109.mpls.qwest.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100725 16:40:08< alink> about cpu-server usage, don't we have a page showing server stats somewhere ?
20100725 16:40:53< mordante> hi ilor 
20100725 16:41:13< ilor> I'm mostly back from the not really announced wesbreak I've been having
20100725 16:41:27< mordante> alink, yes I like it too, very handy at times
20100725 16:42:11< ilor> when I get a hold of a friend of mine I'll start working on making the new addon server workable with trunk
20100725 16:42:25< mordante> alink, we have http://collectd.wesnoth.org/
20100725 16:42:48< mordante> nice ilor I was already wondering how that project went
20100725 16:43:19< ilor> mordante well in general it degenerated into what we wanted to do vs what we should do to pass the course 
20100725 16:43:32< alink> mordante: and when the doxygen update is scheduled ?
20100725 16:43:46< ilor> in the end we passed okay but the code needs some work
20100725 16:43:57< mordante> alink, not sure somewhere early in the morning (European time)
20100725 16:44:31< mordante> ilor, of course passing the course is the most important thing, nice to hear you passed
20100725 16:45:50< ilor> the code, not really touched since late May, is at github.com/Yossarian/WesnothAddonServer
20100725 16:46:36< ilor> the game code is branched from 1.8.0, merging might take a while but not an awful lot
20100725 16:49:32< alink> mordante: in any cases, if there is a problem, we may tweak MAX_DOT_GRAPH_DEPTH to 3 or 4 (currently infinite). Full depth seems not often needed, and you can still click on item to explore further
20100725 16:51:52< mordante> alink, true but it seems the server (and I) survived ;-)
20100725 16:53:15< alink> mordante: hehe, good. Then let's continue like this (and continue to survive :-)
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20100725 16:55:56< mordante> :-)
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20100725 17:10:55< timotei> hi
20100725 17:11:07< mordante> hi timotei 
20100725 17:11:15< timotei> hi mordante :P
20100725 17:11:29< timotei> so... not backstabed by a stilleto?:)
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20100725 17:12:12< mordante> timotei, nope and neither by a stilleto
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20100725 17:12:26< timotei> that's good
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20100725 17:15:43< timotei> alink: hey
20100725 17:15:55< timotei> alink: me personally didn't use the .plain file yet
20100725 17:16:11< timotei> but I see that I can somehow use the cache
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20100725 17:18:51< alink> timotei: but how do you know which cache to use?
20100725 17:19:24< alink> (name comes from a SHA-1 of the defines used)
20100725 17:19:39< timotei> oh great..
20100725 17:21:53< alink> I suppose you could flush the cache directory, start the game and a campaign and pick the newest cache
20100725 17:22:21< alink> maybe we need a --flush_cache command-line parameters.
20100725 17:22:34< alink> Is there another way than delete them by hand ?
20100725 17:22:37< timotei> welll... the cache
20100725 17:22:42< timotei> is done for what?
20100725 17:22:47< timotei> only what the player chooses?
20100725 17:22:51< timotei> or it loads everything at start?
20100725 17:23:33< alink> there is cache for various cases; multiplayer, each campaign, and even main menu
20100725 17:23:51< alink> each one has different define and so different SHA1
20100725 17:24:30< alink> and yeah it parses WML and macros etc in one more efficient file
20100725 17:24:53< timotei> so, if caches campaign x only if I start the campaign...
20100725 17:25:03< timotei> other campaigns (if not started) are not cached right?
20100725 17:25:13< alink> right
20100725 17:25:27< alink> and it refresh the cache only when a cfg file change
20100725 17:25:36< timotei> in the cached region?
20100725 17:25:41< timotei> or anywhere
20100725 17:25:47< alink> anywhere
20100725 17:25:51< timotei> :|
20100725 17:26:12< alink> the game don't know which file belong to the campaign
20100725 17:26:13< timotei> so that means... if the user modifies an addon, the 'entire' cache is reloaded?
20100725 17:26:53< alink> mmh not sure about addon, I was speaking about mainline, but yeah I think it the same
20100725 17:27:34< alink> a "campaign" use the whole WML data, but with a specific campaign WML define 
20100725 17:28:18-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: 135 bugs, 281 feature requests, 14 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
20100725 17:29:54< alink> in theory, I think that 2 campaigns could share the same data
20100725 17:30:18< alink> in fact, IIRC campaign difficulty works like that
20100725 17:30:39< alink> btw there is maybe one cache by campaign difficulty
20100725 17:33:14< alink> yes there is
20100725 17:33:15< silene> yes, there is
20100725 17:33:20< alink> =-)
20100725 17:33:38< alink> you lost time typing that comma
20100725 17:33:49< CIA-87> silene * r44672 /trunk/src/scripting/ (lua.cpp lua_api.hpp): Added support for units on the recall lists.
20100725 17:33:51< silene> :-)
20100725 17:33:57< CIA-87> silene * r44673 /trunk/src/scripting/lua.cpp: Added a getter for units on recall lists.
20100725 17:34:00< CIA-87> silene * r44674 /trunk/src/scripting/lua.cpp: Added an extractor for units, especially for those on recall lists.
20100725 17:34:07< CIA-87> silene * r44675 /trunk/src/scripting/lua.cpp: Modified put_unit so that it can recall units.
20100725 17:34:09< CIA-87> silene * r44676 /trunk/src/scripting/lua.cpp: Added a putter for recall lists.
20100725 17:34:14< CIA-87> silene * r44677 /trunk/src/scripting/ (lua.cpp lua_api.hpp): Removed unused function lua_unit::reload.
20100725 17:34:19< CIA-87> silene * r44678 /trunk/ (data/lua/wml-tags.lua src/scripting/lua.cpp): Added a ~lua: prefix for flagging non-WML errors.
20100725 17:34:23< CIA-87> silene * r44679 /trunk/data/scenario-test.cfg: Added some tests for the recall functions.
20100725 17:34:26< CIA-87> silene * r44680 /trunk/ (data/lua/wml-tags.lua src/game_events.cpp): Moved implementation of [store_unit] to Lua.
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20100725 17:52:09< timotei> well, I'm thinking of making a cache for data/core for the preprocess command
20100725 17:52:15< timotei> would that speed up things a bit?
20100725 17:53:24< alink> not sure what you mean
20100725 17:53:45< timotei> preprocess command processes first the common things in: 'data/core'
20100725 17:53:54< timotei> and only after that the specified argument
20100725 17:55:43< elias> it's not easy, because you need to handle macros
20100725 17:56:46< silene> presumably, this particular cache already exists; that would explain the .define files
20100725 17:56:59< elias> true
20100725 17:57:09< elias> but can --preprocess read in .define files?
20100725 17:57:26< elias> maybe it already does
20100725 17:57:26< alink> note that preprocess allow to specify the defines used
20100725 17:57:39< alink> --preprocess, -p[=<define1>,<define2>,...]
20100725 17:57:45< timotei> alink: yeah
20100725 17:57:51< timotei> but that doesn't help replacing the macros
20100725 17:58:37< alink> also I noticed yesterday that it doesn't use the data-directory parameter like for running the game. You need to specify it with --data-dir
20100725 17:58:59< timotei> alink: -preprocess is done as early as it can, that is, first phase of parsing command args
20100725 17:59:09< timotei> so you must specify --data-dir
20100725 17:59:29< timotei> I think if that was in the second phase it could take a bit more, isn't it?
20100725 18:00:12< alink> ok, but maybe that should be documented (or warned, or display paths used)
20100725 18:01:52< alink> timotei: to speed things up, maybe try disabling cfg.plain, that files is huge
20100725 18:02:14< timotei> well...
20100725 18:02:18< alink> probably because of these big þline
20100725 18:02:28< timotei> it generates the .plain just for target...
20100725 18:02:43< timotei> but I'll check to see if there is any help
20100725 18:02:59< timotei> but I think a cache for /data/core would be better
20100725 18:07:16< alink> ok these big þline (generated for macro debug info) seems to cost half of the time of --preprocess
20100725 18:09:26< timotei> yeah?
20100725 18:09:29< alink> r44612 solved that (but encoded that debug info in an unreadable way in the cfg.plain) and r44659 fixed that (but restored the old spam)
20100725 18:10:23< alink> try that to see the difference http://wesnoth.pastebin.com/8gQAwJfR
20100725 18:11:18< alink> also the cfg.plain in 70MB instead of 280MB
20100725 18:12:16< alink> s/in/is
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20100725 18:15:42< alink> but there is still huge spam of þline (mainly by terrain_graphics), my encoding just make it shorter
20100725 18:16:31< alink> example: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com/d3g5rTbR
20100725 18:17:11< elias> maybe it could be made optional
20100725 18:17:22< elias> it's only useful for error messages after all
20100725 18:19:16< alink> yeah it really should
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20100725 18:26:35< kitty_> hi
20100725 18:26:47< kitty_> fendrin: or Espreon around?
20100725 18:27:01< fendrin> hi kitty_
20100725 18:27:24< kitty_> I was just thinking about starting some portraits for utbs and read that you were working on the quenoth elves
20100725 18:27:49< crimson_penguin> hi kitty_ 
20100725 18:28:06< kitty_> are there new definitions, backstory or the like? and any place to read up on that?
20100725 18:28:15< fendrin> kitty_: Yes, that is right. We thought about making them a more distinct race.
20100725 18:28:19< kitty_> hi crimson_penguin 
20100725 18:28:34< kitty_> how distinct?
20100725 18:28:52< fendrin> kitty_: Most thoughts about the issue have been exchanged on irc, I guess it is to time consuming for you to walk through that. 
20100725 18:29:07< kitty_> if you give me the rough day...
20100725 18:29:17< timotei> alink: so, that: pline?
20100725 18:29:21< timotei> is encoded?
20100725 18:29:52< fendrin> kitty_: Well, the skin should be more dark (adaption to the sun) as well as the hair colour. I thought about making it more brown/redish as an result of fair hair going darker.
20100725 18:31:06< fendrin> kitty_: They will drop the bows because the "Bogensehnen" can't stand the hard night/day temperature difference in the desert.
20100725 18:31:18< kitty_> fendrin: the skin I understand, but why does the hair go darker too? general pigmentation? I'd rather think of bleaching, but that wouldn't be evolution only personal. But reddish could look interesting as well
20100725 18:31:35< alink> timotei: not before, but is was encoded by a side-effect of my recent optimization. The encoding is supposed to be internal only, but some special feature like --preprocess exposed it. But, now it's fully internal again
20100725 18:31:49< kitty_> will they all get bolas then? sounds radical for balancing
20100725 18:32:00< timotei> oh
20100725 18:32:05< fendrin> kitty_: Yes, general pigmentation. I don't want them to be bright red. Just a red "einstich".
20100725 18:32:43< kitty_> fendrin: okay. any other stuff for the lead characters? are you the maintainer?
20100725 18:32:52< alink> timotei: when not encoded, it looks like that : http://wesnoth.pastebin.com/wv0J65Np
20100725 18:33:07< alink> (yeah it's crazy)
20100725 18:33:07< fendrin> kitty_: Yes, I am the maintainer. Together with shadowmaster and Espreon.
20100725 18:33:48< alink> timotei: how works the -p=define argument exactly ?
20100725 18:33:55< kitty_> fendrin: because actually I just did a kaleh, but changing those colour stuffs won't be a problem: http://imagebin.org/106711
20100725 18:34:05< CIA-87> silene * r44681 /trunk/src/ (12 files): 
20100725 18:34:06< CIA-87> Fixed handling of advance=true in [unstore_unit]. (Fix for bug #15560, patch #1610 by Icelus.)
20100725 18:34:06< CIA-87> The patch introduces several contexts describing which kind of RNG at a given point of a game.
20100725 18:34:06< timotei> alink: it justs puts them in the define_map
20100725 18:34:26< fendrin> kitty_: I would like you to give me time until thursday. I have an exam on Wednesday, so I can take the time to extract and write down the new race characterization. 
20100725 18:34:30< alink> timotei: I mean  how do I use it (or it seems to not work)
20100725 18:34:49< timotei> alink: well, the define_map is a: typedef std::map< std::string, preproc_define > preproc_map; structure
20100725 18:35:08< timotei> I add the name of the define, and as the content (that's what I think is done) the name too
20100725 18:35:12< alink> timotei: no, I mean the command line
20100725 18:35:12< kitty_> fendrin: good luck with your exam :) I don't know when I'll have time again, but I'll get back to one of you sometime later
20100725 18:35:18< timotei> well
20100725 18:35:28< timotei> -p=TUTORIAL,CAMPAIGN_ID
20100725 18:35:32< timotei> for example..
20100725 18:35:32< fendrin> kitty_: I would like to define a whole set of cultural habits. Clothes, weapons, tools, what meal they eat, religious habits, and so on.
20100725 18:36:23< fendrin> kitty_: The new Kaleh looks nice, well done :-)
20100725 18:36:29< kitty_> fendrin: that sounds great! do you think my kaleh will be salvageable or directly for the bin?
20100725 18:36:50< kitty_> thanks :)
20100725 18:37:04< alink> timotei: i have no output when using -p=TUTORIAL. If it works for you, then I must do something wrong
20100725 18:37:12< timotei> hmm, let me try
20100725 18:37:20< fendrin> kitty_: Jetrel suggested to drop the fighter line that is sword based and introduce one that uses spears.
20100725 18:37:38< timotei> damn it, right now compiling, I added the 'debug symbols' thingy
20100725 18:37:44< timotei> letme try with debug version
20100725 18:38:14< alink> timotei: btw -p=TUTORIAL must be placed before --preprocess to be really used
20100725 18:38:17< fendrin> kitty_: I have frankensteined some weapons that could act as inspiration for the artists. Please give me a minute to take them online.
20100725 18:38:24< timotei> well
20100725 18:38:30< timotei> -p = --preprocess
20100725 18:38:33< kitty_> I'm curious!
20100725 18:39:02< timotei> so: --preprocess=TUTORIAL == -p=TUTORIAL
20100725 18:39:42< alink> timotei: oh I used it wrong
20100725 18:39:46< timotei> :)
20100725 18:40:10< alink> :-/
20100725 18:40:19< alink> now that seems to work
20100725 18:40:22< timotei> :)
20100725 18:40:26< timotei> good
20100725 18:40:56< alink> I was reading  --preprocess, -p[=<define1>,<define2>,...] <file/folder> <target directory>  without the comma
20100725 18:41:07< timotei> oh
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20100725 18:43:26< fendrin> kitty_: http://imagebin.org/106712 Please note that all those pictures are copyright. So they would need to be altered to a certain degree.
20100725 18:43:46< alink> timotei: ok, so as I expected my recent new TITLE_SCREEN helps a lot --preprocess if you don't care about terrain_graphics
20100725 18:44:11< timotei> well, I don't think i care about that. thanks :
20100725 18:44:24< kitty_> fendrin: that's some sort of axe? where is it from? and which units will use it- the current fighters? 
20100725 18:44:26< Espreon> Oh, hello kitty_.
20100725 18:44:28< alink> timotei: it's more that 10x faster
20100725 18:44:34< kitty_> hi Espreon 
20100725 18:44:40< timotei> when was that TITLE_SCREEN thingy added?
20100725 18:44:47< fendrin> kitty_: The picture shows a stub for the "Spearblade". A weapon that can be used like a spear or like a sword.
20100725 18:44:59< alink> timotei: last night :-)
20100725 18:45:03< timotei> oh ok
20100725 18:45:10< zookeeper> urgh, a fantasy weapon
20100725 18:45:12< Espreon> fendrin: I thought that were calling them spearedges.
20100725 18:45:30< fendrin> kitty_: Espreon is right there, the name changed.
20100725 18:45:32< kitty_> fendrin: ah. and why is that "ebtter" than a sword in our context?
20100725 18:45:43< kitty_> *better
20100725 18:45:52< alink> timotei: for the moment it just skip terrain_graphics, but it's supposed to be used to disable what is not needed for title screen
20100725 18:46:07< timotei> aha
20100725 18:46:41< fendrin> kitty_: Well, It's the different type of damage that can be done with that weapon. Swords to blade damage, the spear can also be used to do pierce.
20100725 18:47:17< alink> timotei: but I suppose I could replace it by a SKIP_TERRAIN_GRAPHICS and make titlescreen uses that instead
20100725 18:47:32< timotei> yeah
20100725 18:47:34< elias> oh, that would also help in wmlunits
20100725 18:47:41< zookeeper> fendrin, do you have all these plans you have written down somewhere in umc-dev?
20100725 18:47:43< elias> i only need terrains, but not the terrain graphics
20100725 18:47:47< kitty_> fendrin: aha. and what kind of blade weapon will the ranged elves get?
20100725 18:47:58< fendrin> Espreon: Do you still have the images of the moth's wings? If so, please set it up on imagebin for kitty_ to regard.
20100725 18:48:11< kitty_> moths? o__O
20100725 18:48:20< alink> elias: wmlunits use --preprocess ?
20100725 18:48:22< zookeeper> fendrin, nevermind, i found it, i think..
20100725 18:48:22< fendrin> kitty_: The spearedges/spearblades can do both types of damage.
20100725 18:48:41< elias> alink: the one in trunk, yes
20100725 18:48:45< elias> it's not used for the website yet though
20100725 18:48:52< Espreon> fendrin: Yeah.
20100725 18:48:54< fendrin> zookeeper: That is still work in progress. I want to work on that from thursday on.
20100725 18:49:00< zookeeper> fendrin, okay
20100725 18:49:12< Espreon> kitty_: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e6/Actias_luna_female_sjh.JPG
20100725 18:50:00< kitty_> Espreon: That's beautiful! You just like the general look/material or is that a concrete ref for the shaman line?
20100725 18:50:11< fendrin> kitty_: http://imagebin.org/106714 That is a double sided spearedge, called twinedge. One of the fighter's advancements is handling it.
20100725 18:50:18< alink> elias: ok, well using TITLE_SCREEN already works, I will check if there is really other things than terrain_graphics that I can disable in titlescreen. If not, then perhaps I should rename it
20100725 18:50:32< Espreon> kitty_: Well, only the Moon Shyde is suppose to have those wings.
20100725 18:50:37< Espreon> *supposed
20100725 18:50:41< timotei> fendrin: wow, that twinedge looks so good:O
20100725 18:50:46< zookeeper> well, i won't comment much yet since i don't know the details, but the only thing i'm concerned so far is the possibility of a lot of cool stuff for the sake of being cool (funny weapons, etc)
20100725 18:51:06< fendrin> timotei: It's only a quick frankensteining.
20100725 18:51:10< kitty_> Espreon: Oh my, perhaps I should first start playing it again - moon shyde?!
20100725 18:52:04< Espreon> Eh, it hasn't been made yet.
20100725 18:52:11< fendrin> kitty_: The desert elves' shaman line has been replaced by a line of iirc we called them mystics.
20100725 18:52:12-!- Gambit [~Gambit@pa-67-234-73-7.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100725 18:52:45< Espreon> Yeah.
20100725 18:53:03< kitty_> Mystics it is then :)  I'm confused - you guys having fun changing names around?
20100725 18:53:03< zookeeper> i just have one request: whatever you do, please don't have a double-bladed sword like that. it's pretty much #1 on the list of the dumbest fantasy inventions ;)
20100725 18:53:14< fendrin> kitty_: Those magicians have remembered thier fairy ancestors and concentrated on the power of the spiritual world.
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20100725 18:53:35< kitty_> zookeeper: I'll see what I can do :P
20100725 18:53:40< Espreon> zookeeper: Honestly, I'm not that fond of it either.
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20100725 18:54:33< fendrin> zookeeper: Double sided spears are not that uncommon. Remember the frankenstein is only a stub to inspire the artists. The blade doesn't need to be that long.
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20100725 18:54:51< zookeeper> in reality, i bet anyone with half a brain would rather go to a fight wielding one half of such a sword rather than a double-bladed monster
20100725 18:55:09< Zerovirus> No, huge swords are better
20100725 18:55:12< Zerovirus> :P
20100725 18:55:16< zookeeper> fendrin, sure, but a spear that's sharp on both ends makes more sense and can actually be used
20100725 18:56:14< zookeeper> but you'd pretty much just be crippling yourself by having a double-bladed sword
20100725 18:56:46< timotei> Upth: hey
20100725 18:56:55< kitty_> there is even a trope on the stupidity of this...
20100725 18:58:23< fendrin> zookeeper, kitty_: Yes, the long swords on the spears ends are ridiculous. It's just a stub. I would like to see a compromis between blade and spear that is actually usefull. 
20100725 18:58:44 * alink remember when he sharpened both ends of his pencil. And then, he ended have it planted (relatively deep) it his hand. It even hang it there.
20100725 18:59:03< alink> painful memory
20100725 18:59:18< kitty_> fendrin I'll start with the protagonists, but if i ever get around to work on generic desert elves, I'll think a lot about that ;)
20100725 18:59:51< zookeeper> fendrin, well, sure
20100725 18:59:51< Zerovirus> kitty: While we're here, do you have any specifics you want me to integrate into their sprites as well?
20100725 19:00:15< zookeeper> fendrin, google for naginata and there you go :P
20100725 19:00:22< kitty_> Zerovirus: You'll do the sprites? Nice!
20100725 19:00:31< Zerovirus> I'm pretty sure I've been doing them
20100725 19:00:41< Zerovirus> I would have been doing the elves but Espreon hasn't got them finalized yet :P
20100725 19:00:41< zookeeper> or have some kind of a glaive
20100725 19:00:43< kitty_> Where?
20100725 19:00:56< Zerovirus> In my thread in ArtContribs
20100725 19:01:06< Zerovirus> I got one elf line done kinda before Espreon told me to wait a bit
20100725 19:01:15< zookeeper> 99% of fantasy weapons which have no counterpart in the real world tend to be just stupid :|
20100725 19:01:29< Zerovirus> My desert elves have a bit too much metal on them, apparently
20100725 19:01:42< alink> zookeeper: yeah like magical staff ;)
20100725 19:01:48< zookeeper> so i'd always suggest to just look into what sort of weapons have really existed, and then using those as inspiration. they're not all mundane and boring after all
20100725 19:01:51< zookeeper> alink, err, yeah ;)
20100725 19:01:58 * zookeeper goes afk ->
20100725 19:02:05< Zerovirus> I want to see a guandao someday as a wesnoth weapon
20100725 19:02:16< fendrin> Zerovirus: You want to do the desert elves' sprites?
20100725 19:02:25< Zerovirus> Uhh yeeeah
20100725 19:02:29< kitty_> Zerovirus: I find a nym sprite, are there more leves?
20100725 19:02:31< timotei> zookeeper: http://media.giantbomb.com/uploads/0/2658/1297469-illidan_stormrage_warglaive_large.jpg
20100725 19:02:31< Zerovirus> Isn't that what me and Espreon agreed on?
20100725 19:02:35< timotei> why not use that swords?:P
20100725 19:02:43< Zerovirus> In the first few pages there's a fighter line
20100725 19:02:51< Espreon> fendrin: I thought that I told you about Zerovirus...
20100725 19:02:56< Zerovirus> I did too
20100725 19:03:00< Zerovirus> I THOUGHT WHAT WE HAD WAS SPECIAL
20100725 19:03:02< Zerovirus> D:
20100725 19:03:20< fendrin> Espreon, Zerovirus: Sorry, my brain is not able to hold names easily.
20100725 19:03:25< Espreon> I see...
20100725 19:03:32< timotei> zookeeper: those are the twin blades of azzinoth
20100725 19:03:45< Zerovirus> They are totally huge swords that I can approve of :P
20100725 19:04:12< timotei> zookeeper: they are used by Illidan :D
20100725 19:04:16< Zerovirus> Also, I'm looking forward to redoing Kaleh's sprite
20100725 19:04:25< Zerovirus> If that's going to be a part of the respriting
20100725 19:04:38 * Espreon wishes that esr were here...
20100725 19:04:41< kitty_> Zerovirus:  I like that they wear a lot of cloth, very tuareg like, I don't like the pirate vibe I get as much. And I'd like lots of layers of bleched and repaired leather.
20100725 19:04:48< fendrin> Zerovirus: We can use a new kaleh and nym sprite.
20100725 19:05:13< Zerovirus> bleached and repaired leather. Hm, okay
20100725 19:05:28< timotei> fendrin: don't you like the swords from final fantasy?
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20100725 19:05:44< kitty_> Zerovirus: Did you see my start for a kaleh portrait I posted earlier? Wrong colours and weapon obviously...
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20100725 19:05:59< Zerovirus> Actually I don't think so
20100725 19:06:00< fendrin> kitty_: Right, their skin will be covered very much. Just imagine we had 2 suns around burning...
20100725 19:06:21< kitty_> Modeled after the current sprite:  http://imagebin.org/106711
20100725 19:06:36< Zerovirus> Okay that is pretty darn cool
20100725 19:06:41-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has quit [Quit: noy]
20100725 19:06:44< Zerovirus> I really liked his plated handguard in his old sprite :P
20100725 19:07:01< Zerovirus> Oooh, is the sword a leaf crossguard? Nice detail!
20100725 19:07:32< kitty_> I could add a handguard, I wasn't sure what that would be made of, I'd imagine metal very hot
20100725 19:07:40< fendrin> kitty_: But I don't want them to look oriental. I would like them to be more fremen like (dune from frank herbert)
20100725 19:08:01< kitty_> Fremen are *very* high technology first of all
20100725 19:08:53< kitty_> Zerovirus For the metal leaf: I'd like to incorporate some leaf stuff sparsely, as a mystical reminder of the old times
20100725 19:08:56< Zerovirus> Hm, the right arm (our left) of Kaleh looks weird. The upper arm is very long and the foreshortened muscles kinda look... Weird? Too far down?
20100725 19:09:22< Espreon> Not this Fremen crap again...
20100725 19:09:35< Zerovirus> Ooh, his skirt thing is made from an old elvish captain cloak or something? Cool.
20100725 19:09:59< kitty_> Zerovirus: Thanks for the crit! I'll have another look on it, when I'll get the info on the final weapon and depending on that change the arm or not
20100725 19:10:23< kitty_> Espreon: You don't like Dune? Or just the reference?
20100725 19:10:41< Zerovirus> I tried to read dune once and couldn't. But that's not the point :P 
20100725 19:10:55< Espreon> I don't like the idea of these elves being Fremen-like.
20100725 19:11:09< Espreon> Also, I never read "Dune", so... yeahz...
20100725 19:11:10< fendrin> kitty_: Well, I don't want to suggest a straight copy of the fremes anyway. Just a little influence.
20100725 19:11:23< timotei> Espreon: at least did you played it? Dune 2 or Dune 2000?
20100725 19:11:38< Espreon> Tch, no.
20100725 19:11:45< timotei> you should :P
20100725 19:11:48< fendrin> timotei: I suggest watching the movie by david lynch. Not playing the game.
20100725 19:11:50< Zerovirus> http://www.freewebs.com/palatium/fremen.jpg
20100725 19:11:54< kitty_> Just in that far that they are trained, no fat, no water wasting - general stuff like that could fit very well
20100725 19:11:55< Zerovirus> Maybe something like this for the fighter's armor?
20100725 19:12:01< timotei> fendrin: oh, thanks for info
20100725 19:12:34< fendrin> timotei: There is a very long director's cut out there. Not that the not directors cut would be a short movie.
20100725 19:13:22< kitty_> The 200 miniseries is quite nice, too. Much more detail!
20100725 19:13:29< kitty_> 2000
20100725 19:14:59< fendrin> kitty_: Having a low tech version of the fremens' desert suite would make sense as well. Even the original one seems to be made out of leader.
20100725 19:15:19< fendrin> s/leader/leather
20100725 19:15:43< kitty_> Hmm. Visually that would end quite boring with everybody wearing exactly the same piece of cloth, that covers up everything
20100725 19:16:02< fendrin> kitty_: We have quite different units in the faction.
20100725 19:16:27< kitty_> Yes but they would all wear a stillsuit plus their equipment - boring
20100725 19:16:41< fendrin> kitty_: The mystic lines are more fairy like creatures. They don't need clothes to regulate temperature because they are not bound to our world like we are.
20100725 19:17:23 * Espreon agrees with kitty_.
20100725 19:17:27< fendrin> kitty_: And we have the sanddancer, a scout that uses magic to adapt to the desert. It wouldn't wear the same clothes either.
20100725 19:17:43< kitty_> Seriously? Don't just explain everything away with magic! If we picture them as low on water and taking care of every drop we can'T have half of them not needing to care!
20100725 19:18:18< Espreon> But, 'tis the ultimate excuse!
20100725 19:18:35< fendrin> I would prefer a non magical solution either. 
20100725 19:18:51< Zerovirus> Would or wouldn't?
20100725 19:19:23< fendrin> I don't like the sanddancer to be a pure magical unit.
20100725 19:20:04< Espreon> Fine, then come up with a better excuse.
20100725 19:20:27< Zerovirus> I'm actually trying to think of something else and failing miserably
20100725 19:20:29< fendrin> Espreon: Well, my excuse was the low tech fremen suite for them.
20100725 19:20:54< Espreon> Well, I didn't like that excuse.
20100725 19:21:02< kitty_> Simply everybody having various kinds of water preserving equipment? And the sanddancer in kind of a stillsuit
20100725 19:21:14 * Espreon doesn't like it
20100725 19:21:34< Zerovirus> How about this? The sanddancer has magical kidneys. That's the best idea I could come up with.
20100725 19:22:23< Espreon> ... or kidneys that work like magic... LOL
20100725 19:22:35< kitty_> what are the sanddancer's abilities? hiding in the sands and suffering of no thirst?
20100725 19:22:47< Zerovirus> ...I dunno, holy water infused into the blood stream as applied phlibotinum?
20100725 19:23:18< fendrin> kitty_: One of the most important changes to the quenoth elves is the fact that they have adopted to their environment by being no longer lawfull/chaotic but luminal.
20100725 19:23:21< mordante> I'm off bye
20100725 19:23:25< Espreon> Bye.
20100725 19:23:26< fendrin> mordante: bye
20100725 19:23:36-!- mordante [~mordante@wesnoth/developer/mordante] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
20100725 19:23:44< kitty_> fendrin: what does luminal mean?
20100725 19:24:07< fendrin> kitty_: That means that their prefered time of day are the twilight times.
20100725 19:24:18< kitty_> ah, thanks
20100725 19:24:30< Espreon> I think it's "liminal".
20100725 19:24:37< fendrin> kitty_: In picture that would mean that their eyes could reflect that.
20100725 19:24:41< Espreon> Lemme check our LOLdocumentation.
20100725 19:24:52< fendrin> Espreon: Thank you, I am just bad with names.
20100725 19:25:21< kitty_> fendrin: what do you imagine? big slitted pupils?
20100725 19:25:23< Espreon> Not in our LOLdocumentation, but I'm pretty sure that it was "liminal".
20100725 19:25:43< fendrin> Espreon: I think you are right.
20100725 19:25:54< fendrin> kitty_: Well, that would be one solution.
20100725 19:26:12< Zerovirus> Honestly I think the fluff should just be left as is, and the artists can do what they want. If too much definition is made the fluff will go into Dune-style overdetailing with all the scifi stuff designed around keeping people alive in the desert.
20100725 19:26:15< CIA-87> espreon * r44682 /trunk/data/core/images/units/ (25 files in 2 dirs): Ran umcpropfix.
20100725 19:26:40< kitty_> Zerovirus: Hey! Nothing against master herberts overdetailing abilities!
20100725 19:26:48< Espreon> Sigh...
20100725 19:27:10< Zerovirus> I dunno, when you can come up with crazy stuff like sandtrout cocaine water to facilitate a plot, something might be wrong :P
20100725 19:27:17< fendrin> Well, we don't want to copy herbert as much as we don't want to copy tolkien that much.
20100725 19:27:20< Zerovirus> Then again I suppose I couldn't read dune because I couldn't keep up with the plot.
20100725 19:27:26< kitty_> But for this project you're right of course, put in what is really important...
20100725 19:28:02< kitty_>  Zerovirus: You couldn't read the first volume? Or the later ones, which are really more ... special... ?
20100725 19:28:12< Zerovirus> I read them all
20100725 19:28:13< CIA-87> espreon * r44683 /trunk/src/ (unit_helper.cpp unit_helper.hpp): Ran umcpropfix.
20100725 19:28:13< Zerovirus> every single on
20100725 19:28:16< Zerovirus> *one
20100725 19:28:21< Zerovirus> to say I understood them would be a lie though
20100725 19:28:24< fendrin> I have read all of them as well.
20100725 19:28:35< Zerovirus> I had to go look at a wiki while I was reading to understand the plot
20100725 19:28:41< kitty_> :D
20100725 19:29:14< fendrin> When I was very young and did my first experiments with stuff you can't tell on an open channel.
20100725 19:29:18< Zerovirus> So, what have we accumulated in fluff over this enjoyable talk?
20100725 19:30:06< fendrin> Let's redesign the faction and see that they are not just arabic/oriental elves. That is very important to me.
20100725 19:30:25< Zerovirus> ...That means we're still on brainstorming?
20100725 19:30:42< Zerovirus> Good heavens espreon I thought you guys had something more concrete than this :P
20100725 19:30:45< fendrin> I want them to be a unique faction. Not too much tolkien not too much herbert not to much 1001 nights.
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20100725 19:31:01< fendrin> Zerovirus: Right, the faction is still a work in progress.
20100725 19:31:11< kitty_> not too dune-ish, not too arabic. some kind of preferably non magical water preservation. lots of cloth and leather. less metal. dark skin, reddish hair. Pointy weapons, which could be double-sieded or glaive-like. what else?
20100725 19:31:37< kitty_> no bows. moth wings.
20100725 19:31:48< Zerovirus> No bows? Right, no wood, so no bows.
20100725 19:32:15< kitty_> and the bow string would dry out and tear
20100725 19:32:18< kitty_> and i want tattoos.
20100725 19:32:28< kitty_> not for me - for the elves :P
20100725 19:32:42< Zerovirus> tattoos, red hair, dark skin, lots of leather and cloth. That's all here that concerns me
20100725 19:32:55< fendrin> kitty_: Tattoos are a good idea. Maybe even some kind of body modification.
20100725 19:33:06< kitty_> third arm anyone?
20100725 19:33:11< Zerovirus> Let's go spacemarine and give them four kidneys.
20100725 19:33:19< Zerovirus> Oh wait no 40k had 2 hearts or something like that
20100725 19:34:05< Espreon> kitty_: Uh, the moth wings are for the Moon Shyde only.
20100725 19:34:39< fendrin> I thought about huge holes in the ears (made by some kind of piercing) or in the lips or something similar.
20100725 19:34:42< kitty_> but the other'S will get moth-y wings as well, I wont start with dragonflies and suddenly change that on level-up
20100725 19:35:26< Espreon> No, no, only the L3s get wings.
20100725 19:35:40< kitty_> the L2 have none?
20100725 19:35:47< Zerovirus> No, I thought we all agreed there
20100725 19:35:49< kitty_> And is there only one option for the L3
20100725 19:35:52< Zerovirus> I think so
20100725 19:35:58< fendrin> kitty_: The mystics splitt up in three different advancements. One is focused at night(the moth winged) one is focused on day/heat it has to have another sort of wings. And one that is neutral and focused on earth/nature magic, maybe no wings at all.
20100725 19:36:07< kitty_> okay
20100725 19:36:36< Espreon> ... and I have to bring in the groceries...
20100725 19:37:13< Zerovirus> The desert elves usually just fight wild animals for the most part before the events of UtBS right?
20100725 19:37:44< kitty_> But they still train, don't they? with galas as the sword master and all
20100725 19:37:53< Zerovirus> Yeah
20100725 19:38:00< Zerovirus> But I'm thinking their equipment shoudl reflect that
20100725 19:38:02< fendrin> Zerovirus: The story tells that they had encounters with undead before iirc.
20100725 19:38:08< Zerovirus> I dunno, fang adornments and stuff
20100725 19:38:22< Zerovirus> At the least it'll give the units more variety
20100725 19:38:30< kitty_> Shiney and un-used? Overly decorative? Rosty and old?
20100725 19:38:45< kitty_> Oh, fangs are nice too :)
20100725 19:40:20< zookeeper> timotei, illidan must be a bit funny in the head
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20100725 19:43:48< Espreon> ... and I'm back..
20100725 19:44:41< fendrin> kitty_, Zerovirus: Please don't waste your time until thursday. I promise to come up with a description of the faction that is detailed enough to give inspiration but not that detailed so that you can't bring in your own ideas/style.
20100725 19:44:53< Zerovirus> Okay
20100725 19:45:00< Zerovirus> Not that I have time until friday anyways
20100725 19:45:06< kitty_> Okay
20100725 19:45:19< fendrin> kitty_: But you could give the moth wings a try :-)
20100725 19:45:19< kitty_> And not that I knew when I'll have time again...
20100725 19:45:44< timotei> zookeeper: :D
20100725 19:46:09< zookeeper> as far as i can tell, they'd have regularly fought undead, bandits, orcs, that sort of stuff.
20100725 19:46:43< timotei> zookeeper: who? illidan?
20100725 19:46:53< zookeeper> timotei, the desert elves
20100725 19:46:56< timotei> o
20100725 19:46:59< timotei> ok:P
20100725 19:47:29< zookeeper> that pic you posted is exactly the kind of fantasy imagery i have a severe dislike towards :x
20100725 19:48:10< timotei> :x wants to be a smiley?:P
20100725 19:48:19< zookeeper> yes
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20100725 19:49:11< zookeeper> anyway, the elves still have some wood (considering that they have a holy tree, they probably have had access to at least a bit of other treeswood too)
20100725 19:49:33< zookeeper> ...so having bows sounds fine, provided that they're limited to one unit line only
20100725 19:50:27< zookeeper> having fighters and scouts wield bows too would be silly, but having one line of bow units available sounds reasonable
20100725 19:51:31< fendrin> zookeeper: I am not sure here. The hard environment would make the bow's bowsting broken very fast.
20100725 19:51:36< Espreon> The new scouts won't get bows.
20100725 19:53:23< zookeeper> fendrin, sure, but that'd just make taking care of your bow more time-consuming and expensive...not completely unfeasible
20100725 19:53:34< zookeeper> that is, it'd be an elite troop kind of weapon, i guess
20100725 19:54:21< fendrin> zookeeper: Hmmm, maybe. It's just that I don't like them having that typical elve weapon around.
20100725 19:55:59< zookeeper> fendrin, sure, but you still should have a few "typical elvish" bits here and there, otherwise you might end up with something that doesn't seem elvish anymore at all
20100725 20:00:57-!- Zerovirus [62c45c53@gateway/web/freenode/ip.98.196.92.83] has quit [Quit: Page closed]
20100725 20:06:23< AI0867> alink: your r44004 broke recolored terrain
20100725 20:06:38-!- Grickit [~Gambit@pa-67-234-73-7.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100725 20:06:49< AI0867> it causes stuff like this: error display: error parsing image modifications: ater/coast-A15-sw.png~
20100725 20:07:02-!- Gambit [~Gambit@pa-67-234-73-7.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
20100725 20:07:04< alink> AI0867: ok, checking
20100725 20:08:05< alink> AI0867: I already see a stupid typo there
20100725 20:10:10< alink> http://wesnoth.pastebin.com/yWGv56EA should fix it, but I still need to test it
20100725 20:11:13< AI0867> I'll test it
20100725 20:11:36< alink> done, seems to work now
20100725 20:12:24< alink> AI0867: thanks for the report, is it used in mainline ?
20100725 20:13:25< AI0867> not at the moment
20100725 20:13:31< AI0867> the feature is only a month old or so
20100725 20:13:44< AI0867> I should tell eleazar about it
20100725 20:13:57< Espreon> Indeed.
20100725 20:15:26< alink> I was thinking using it to generate terrain images variation, especially with the new ~BLIT
20100725 20:15:31< AI0867> alink: confirmed that your patch works
20100725 20:15:44< alink> AI0867: thans, I commit it
20100725 20:15:48< alink> *thanks
20100725 20:16:35< CIA-87> alink * r44684 /trunk/src/builder.cpp: Fix typo in r44004 breaking image path modidification.
20100725 20:16:59-!- kitty_ [~kathrinpo@e180198033.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: bye]
20100725 20:17:48< alink> in theory, it could be used to auto-generate missing transitions. Just use a transition alpha mask on a hex terrain image and you should get a decent transition
20100725 20:18:53< alink> hmmm, except that we don't have a real ~MASK function yet :-/
20100725 20:20:15< alink> I will try to add that, it should be similar to the new lightmap function
20100725 20:21:04< Espreon> http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?p=445239#p445239 — Blargh...
20100725 20:21:27< alink> wesbot: seen Yoyobuae
20100725 20:21:27< wesbot> alink: The person with the nick Yoyobuae last spoke 6d 23h ago.  6d 11h ago they left with the message: Client Quit
20100725 20:21:41< timotei> ugly...
20100725 20:22:17< timotei> but maybe that wolves just sniff in the bushes...
20100725 20:23:03< alink> I don't find it ugly, and we have only very few tiny perspective error for a 2D game
20100725 20:23:26< alink> (in false 3D)
20100725 20:24:28 * Espreon hopes that this storm will bring some rain
20100725 20:26:02< timotei> Espreon: you want rain? come here and you'll get
20100725 20:26:10< timotei> it rained the whole half-a-day here
20100725 20:26:20< timotei>  but it's still better than 30+ grades
20100725 20:26:24< timotei> (Celsius)
20100725 20:26:52-!- King_Elendil [~King_Elen@75.143.235.104] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100725 20:27:48< Espreon> But I don't wanna...
20100725 20:31:02< alink> indeed that forest has especially large foreground terrain : http://imgur.com/zmr9f
20100725 20:31:16< timotei> damn, forgot again what I wanted to fixX(
20100725 20:31:34-!- PetePorty [~Pete@pc-235-252-120-200.cm.vtr.net] has quit [Quit: Saliendo]
20100725 20:31:43< timotei> hey Espreon It seems the latest precompiled ati driver works beautifull
20100725 20:31:50< timotei> no need to upgrade to 'radeon':)
20100725 20:31:50< alink> (using :foreground)
20100725 20:41:37< alink> any tip for a GPU-fan failing to start at boot (need a finger push) ?
20100725 20:50:50< boucman> alink: clean them ?
20100725 20:51:18< alink> yes I tried that, it didn't help
20100725 20:51:48< alink> but it was a bit dirty, maybe it's what damaged it
20100725 20:53:43< alink> I was thinking putting another big fan in front and see if it enough to start the smaller GPU one, but i am not sure about putting fans in series 
20100725 20:54:54< timotei> it could work, but it's not worth
20100725 20:54:58< timotei> better replace the fan
20100725 20:55:03< timotei> it's not so expensive/hard
20100725 20:56:31< alink> I don't see how to replace it's in the middle of the gpu radiator,
20100725 20:56:40< timotei> ha???
20100725 20:56:45< timotei> isn't on top of the radiator?
20100725 20:57:09< grzywacz> Nah, they make cards with fans that are embedded in the design.
20100725 20:57:16< grzywacz> The worst choice you can make when buying one. ;)
20100725 20:57:28< alink> indeed :-/
20100725 20:57:36 * grzywacz praises his geforce with passive cooling
20100725 20:57:47< alink> it's a geforce 9500 GT
20100725 20:57:57< grzywacz> There are 9600 and 9800 GTs without fans.
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20100725 20:58:09< grzywacz> Gigabyte used to make them.
20100725 20:58:18< grzywacz> I'm stuck with 7600 GS :-)
20100725 20:58:31< alink> yeah seems that there is a lot of various cooling system for those
20100725 20:59:22< alink> if/when it will fails, I will just remove it and put a big one. That should work
20100725 21:01:51< timotei> lol
20100725 21:02:57< alink> manually start the fan was funny the first days, but that's get old quickly :-/
20100725 21:03:54< alink> where are the small robotic arm when you need them
20100725 21:04:19-!- ABCD [~abcd@gentoo/developer/abcd] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
20100725 21:06:20< timotei> well, leave it stopped:P
20100725 21:06:31< timotei> start it only when you want to play ;)
20100725 21:07:02< alink> that's what happened the first time and that smelled. That's how I noticed the problem
20100725 21:07:17-!- shadowm_laptop [ignacio@wesnoth/developer/shadowmaster] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100725 21:07:31< alink> and now I have script and alarm watching the temperature in case it really fails
20100725 21:08:09< alink> I am happy with my blinking LED-keyboard script for fullscreen :-)
20100725 21:08:13< timotei> :D
20100725 21:10:50< Ke> !
20100725 21:11:07< Ke> solving the problem once and for all
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20100725 21:23:47< thespaceinvader> fendrin: isn't that just a naginata
20100725 21:24:00< thespaceinvader> or a halberd
20100725 21:24:16< thespaceinvader> replying to a comment made several hours ago ftw >.<
20100725 21:24:25< fendrin> thespaceinvader: Well, I have frankensteined it from a singlehanded sword that you can buy from a blacksmith.
20100725 21:24:33< thespaceinvader> yeah
20100725 21:24:53< thespaceinvader> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naginata
20100725 21:25:07< fendrin> thespaceinvader: I like the design, but the blade is surely much to long.
20100725 21:25:08< thespaceinvader> the image looks awesome, but I don't think it's as new as it seems, perhaps
20100725 21:25:53< fendrin> thespaceinvader: And yes, those weapons have been around in several cultures under different names.
20100725 21:26:06< thespaceinvader> this is for the Quenoth?
20100725 21:27:01< fendrin> thespaceinvader: Right, It was Jetrel's idea to give the fighter a spear instead of a sword. And I must say that I like the idea.
20100725 21:27:11< thespaceinvader> yeah
20100725 21:27:19< thespaceinvader> a polearm is more unusual
20100725 21:27:46< thespaceinvader> though you'd have to be a little careful to avoid comparisons with those pole-swords the elves use in the LotR films
20100725 21:29:20< fendrin> thespaceinvader: Right, at least the stub is copyrighted so it has to be altered much.
20100725 21:29:34< thespaceinvader> the image you provided?
20100725 21:29:41< thespaceinvader> yeah, it would need to be re-drawn
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20100725 21:33:08< fendrin> thespaceinvader: Well, I guess that the seller of the sword has copyrights on the design.
20100725 21:33:25< zookeeper> ..?
20100725 21:33:29< zookeeper> what on earth are you talking about?
20100725 21:34:11< thespaceinvader> can't copyright a design.  However, we would probably need to make something of a less unusual appearance, to avoid the appearance of impropriety
20100725 21:36:03< fendrin> zookeeper: http://www.kitrae.net/fantasy/KR25.html
20100725 21:36:28< fendrin> zookeeper: That is the original from which I frankensteined the spearblade.
20100725 21:37:11< zookeeper> okay...i hope no one needs to be told that there's no copyright problem with anything anyone might actually do using that design
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20100725 21:41:50< fendrin> zookeeper: That is fine. But I just don't feel good with having it in wesnoth. Especially since the blade really is much to long for acting as a spears top.
20100725 21:43:11< shadowmaster> that doesn't look very practical for battle.
20100725 21:43:42< shadowmaster> it looks like it'll very easily break apart as soon as it hits something harder that flesh
20100725 21:43:43< zookeeper> yeah, it's not
20100725 21:43:52< zookeeper> that too
20100725 21:44:30< fendrin> shadowmaster: Right, It was just a stub to give the artists ideas.
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20100725 22:02:38< timotei> ok I'm out
20100725 22:02:40< timotei> good bye
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20100725 22:29:12< PetePorty> This sicks, shadowm_laptop 
20100725 22:29:18< PetePorty> sucks*
20100725 22:29:19-!- PetePorty [~Pete@pc-235-252-120-200.cm.vtr.net] has quit [Quit: Saliendo]
20100725 22:30:58< shadowm_laptop> yeah, his trolling sucks
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20100725 23:28:18-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: 133 bugs, 281 feature requests, 13 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
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--- Log closed Mon Jul 26 00:00:37 2010