--- Log opened Fri Jul 30 00:00:07 2010
--- Day changed Fri Jul 30 2010
20100730 00:00:07< fendrin> zookeeper: Because the unit is the only ranged damage dealer the faction has. And heavy damage + slow is too much.
20100730 00:02:27< zookeeper> i guess having an archer line would have helped with that ;)
20100730 00:04:39< noy> I just played through UTBS 
20100730 00:05:00< noy> what are the issues that will be changed?
20100730 00:05:53< noy> I liked having the rogue line with the impact Bollas... they help quite a bit in the later levels
20100730 00:06:53< zookeeper> noy, well it's more or less a complete revamp of all the unit lines
20100730 00:07:17< noy> for what reason?
20100730 00:07:19< noy> new art?
20100730 00:07:39< zookeeper> the hunter line seems almost identical though, just nerfed a bit (which is good)
20100730 00:08:32< zookeeper> noy, the problem with the current ones is that except for the hunter line, they're just a copy of wood elves
20100730 00:08:48< noy> is that a terrible idea?
20100730 00:08:53< zookeeper> but personally i feel that this plan is going too far into the opposite direction
20100730 00:09:14< noy> I think having units that are vaguely similar to the elves fitting to the setting
20100730 00:09:23< noy> (the current elves)
20100730 00:09:49< fendrin> noy: Do you want me to explain the new faction?
20100730 00:10:02< zookeeper> noy, well, it's pretty boring. they're not just vaguely similar, they're exact copies in function, have identical weapons, etc.
20100730 00:10:33< noy> sure, change it a bit...
20100730 00:10:48< zookeeper> i've always agreed that they could do some reworking...add something, change something, etc
20100730 00:11:01< noy> I'm just saying that it being close to the current elves isn't a bad thing at all
20100730 00:11:58< anonymissimus> esr: IIRC the drake clasher animations lack some images
20100730 00:12:19< anonymissimus> so its not so easy to fix :P
20100730 00:12:51< zookeeper> i somehow get the feeling that they're going in the direction of somewhat generic high-fantasy with cool weapons and fancy names
20100730 00:13:23< noy> fendrin: please do
20100730 00:13:24< zookeeper> (the twinedge being the biggest offender)
20100730 00:13:40< zookeeper> anyway, i gotta go, i'll read the logs tomorrow...
20100730 00:13:50< noy> Nothing better than using islamic names nobody knows :p
20100730 00:14:07< zookeeper> don't get me started on that
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20100730 00:14:54< Espreon> Tch...
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20100730 00:25:20< CIA-87> fendrin * r44880 /trunk/data/campaigns/Under_the_Burning_Suns/docs/Quenoth.txt: Added a general description of the Quenoth elves.
20100730 00:26:36< fendrin> noy: The current hunter line makes the fighter obsolete because in most situations it's superior. It also reduces the shaman to a pure healer since the slow ability of the hunter is much safer to use than the one of the shaman.
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20100730 00:27:19< fendrin> The rest of the elves is pretty much a pure copy of the woodland elves with another terrain movement values.
20100730 00:27:41< fendrin> I want to change the faction in the following ways:
20100730 00:27:56< Ivanovic> upthorn: looks like your last commit broke compilation over here...
20100730 00:27:58< Ivanovic> http://pastebin.com/PHQQ6MKY
20100730 00:28:32< fendrin> The fighter line gets a spear instead of swords.
20100730 00:28:50< noy> why?
20100730 00:29:01< fendrin> That was jetrel's idea.
20100730 00:29:08< noy> just because?
20100730 00:29:21< fendrin> 1) The elves have not much access to metal.
20100730 00:29:58< noy> Doesn't the hunter have a sword?
20100730 00:30:14< fendrin> The hunter's sword is replaced with a glaive.
20100730 00:30:55< noy> uh, if anything THEY should have a spear
20100730 00:31:21< noy> it makes less sense to give them a glaive and the fighter a spear.
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20100730 00:32:49< fendrin> Why that?
20100730 00:33:05< fendrin> The spear is a two handed weapon. The glaive a one handed one.
20100730 00:34:06< noy> spear can be a one handed one
20100730 00:34:38< noy> its also a far more adaptable weapon and easier to repair
20100730 00:34:43< fendrin> sure, but that one is not designed to.
20100730 00:36:12< noy> uh and isn't a glaive a two handed weapon?
20100730 00:36:43< noy> Ivanovic: got a moment?
20100730 00:36:48< noy> can you ping me privately?
20100730 00:37:07< CIA-87> alink * r44881 /trunk/src/persist_context.hpp: 
20100730 00:37:07< CIA-87> r44869 broke trunk, quick fix
20100730 00:37:07< CIA-87> Just remove an unused variable seems enough. Upthorn, please review this.
20100730 00:37:08< alink> Ivanovic: Espreon: fixed ^
20100730 00:37:15< Espreon> Thanks.
20100730 00:39:29< fendrin> noy: I once had in World of Warcraft a one handed one. But we can talk about the name, no problem.
20100730 00:39:44< Espreon> Oh God...
20100730 00:42:58< noy> Well fendrin, its your project and you can do as you wish. From what you've described I think moving away from some of the things that made the campaign kinda interesting. 
20100730 00:44:04< noy> Knowing the campaign was a work in progress, I liked the fact the elves were to some degree related to the original elves
20100730 00:44:35< noy> and from what little you've said here I can see zookeeper's concern and I'd share it. 
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20100730 01:07:47< eleazar_> glaive = two-handed weapon
20100730 01:08:46< noy> eleazar_: thats what I thought. Its not really a hunting weapon either... at least not one that you'd want if you were out in the middle of the desert. 
20100730 01:09:15< eleazar_> a spear is a traditional hunting weapon
20100730 01:10:28< eleazar_> A glaive is a European polearm weapon, consisting of a single-edged blade on the end of a pole. It is similar to the Japanese naginata.
20100730 01:10:28< eleazar_> Typically, the blade was around 45 cm (18 inches) long, on the end of a pole 2 m (6 or 7 feet) long
20100730 01:11:47< alink> for a french speaker, it's more a 1 hand weapon, I think http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glaive
20100730 01:11:53< alink> as the photo shows
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20100730 01:15:55< eleazar_> we would call that a "gladius"
20100730 01:17:28< alink> but that sound very roman/latin. Feel weird in a fantasy world.
20100730 01:18:12< eleazar_> it is roman.  and it also beat using a term that properly (in english) belongs to a very different weapon
20100730 01:18:24< alink> I was surprised that glaive is so different for english speakers
20100730 01:18:42< eleazar_> you could also call it a "short sword" which is a more generic term
20100730 01:19:11< eleazar_> that is odd
20100730 01:21:09< alink> weapon name are full of old weird words, in all languages I guess, but maybe more in french
20100730 01:22:22< alink> for example pole weapon is "Arme d'hast" and I have no idea about the etymology of "hast"
20100730 01:23:08< eleazar_> sounds like "haft" -- which is a pole more or less
20100730 01:23:43< alink> ah it's from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hastati  : a class of infantry in the armies of the early Roman Republic who originally fought as spearmen
20100730 01:24:33< alink> I learned something. I didn't know that it had also a roman origin
20100730 01:25:36< alink> and Hasta means spear in latin. I should have studied more latin 
20100730 01:27:49< CIA-87> espreon * r44882 /trunk/data/core/terrain.cfg: Fixed broken image paths.
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20100730 01:32:26< CIA-87> gabba * r44883 /trunk/src/whiteboard/recruit.cpp: Whiteboard/recruit: set movement and attack of temp unit in future map to 0.
20100730 01:32:32< CIA-87> gabba * r44884 /trunk/src/whiteboard/recruit.cpp: Whiteboard/recruit: avoid memory leak.
20100730 01:32:38< CIA-87> gabba * r44885 /trunk/src/whiteboard/recruit.cpp: Whiteboard/recruit: use insert() instead of add() for future unit.
20100730 01:32:46< CIA-87> gabba * r44886 /trunk/src/whiteboard/ (recruit.cpp recruit.hpp): Whiteboard/recruit: implement print()
20100730 01:32:52< CIA-87> gabba * r44887 /trunk/src/ (play_controller.cpp whiteboard/manager.cpp): Whiteboard: test using the TAB key instead of CTRL. Hovering on top of a planned recruit still crashes the game.
20100730 01:32:57< CIA-87> gabba * r44888 /trunk/src/mouse_events.cpp: Whiteboard: more debug logging.
20100730 01:33:04< CIA-87> gabba * r44889 /trunk/src/whiteboard/recruit.cpp: Whiteboard/recruit: fix to print() method.
20100730 01:33:10< CIA-87> gabba * r44890 /trunk/src/whiteboard/ (recruit.cpp recruit.hpp): Whiteboard/recruit: keep temp unit around instead of re-creating it every time.
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20100730 01:48:02< Espreon> wesbot: log 44881
20100730 01:48:03< wesbot> alink * r44881 : r44869 broke trunk, quick fixJust remove an unused variable seems enough. Upthorn, please review this.
20100730 01:48:06< wesbot> URL: http://svn.gna.org/viewcvs/wesnoth?view=rev&rev=44881
20100730 01:48:28< Upthorn> thanks Espreon
20100730 01:48:36< Espreon> You're welcome.
20100730 01:50:37< Upthorn> alink: yeah, changing that shouldn't be a problem. It's odd, though, that it only broke trunk just now, since it's been in there for more than a month
20100730 01:51:55< alink> that's because you just added pure virtual function
20100730 01:52:07< Upthorn> oh. yeah, that would do it.
20100730 01:52:09< alink> http://pastebin.com/PHQQ6MKY
20100730 01:52:13< Upthorn> I wonder why msvc didn't complain.
20100730 01:53:41< alink> maybe because it was not used (even if it feels wrong)
20100730 01:56:38< alink> ah it's a static member, but with no declaration in the cpp. So, in a way, it's never constructed.
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20100730 02:31:38< DigitalSeraphim> anyone else having trouble with music with trunk?
20100730 02:32:32< DigitalSeraphim> For me I only get "musical static", not pure white noise, but a very distorted version of the music
20100730 02:34:43< DigitalSeraphim> never mind.  was the version of libsdl i had installed.  using pulseaudio, and at first had -alsa installed, then tried -all, finally -pulseaudio (once i figured out that's what i'm using) and that worked
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20100730 03:06:28< ancestral> http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=30962
20100730 03:06:35< ancestral> Hehe
20100730 03:07:30< Espreon> I know, huh?
20100730 03:09:15< Aethaeryn> Yes, WebOS needs a port before Android and WinMo, two more popular platforms
20100730 03:09:18< Aethaeryn> Not to mention the Nokia OSes
20100730 03:09:45< Aethaeryn> While we're at it, we should port Wesnoth to BeOS
20100730 03:10:27< Espreon> Let's also port it to FreeDOS!
20100730 03:16:35< ancestral> Let's port it to CP/M!
20100730 03:21:17< Aethaeryn> oh whoops... BeOS is dead
20100730 03:21:24< Aethaeryn> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haiku_%28operating_system%29
20100730 03:23:21< ancestral> Yeah
20100730 03:23:44< Aethaeryn> It's amazing how many potential competitors Microsoft killed in the 90s.
20100730 03:23:50< Aethaeryn> It's even more amazing how Apple survived.
20100730 03:24:19< ancestral> BeOS was shopped to Apple, but they got greedy, and didn't have much of a plan to show
20100730 03:24:21< Aethaeryn> And it's the most amazing how the tables seem to have been reversed and Apple's trendy and Microsoft's what people who are behind the time use.
20100730 03:25:31< ancestral> Reading the market is a big part of the game.
20100730 03:25:35< Aethaeryn> It's kinda shocking now to think that Microsoft used to be cool.
20100730 03:25:44< Aethaeryn> But even I, a big Linux geek, used Windows in the early 2000s.
20100730 03:26:04< ancestral> Well, I was in the underground back then, so I can't relate ;-)
20100730 03:26:18< ancestral> They were tough times
20100730 03:26:50< Aethaeryn> Oh, the days of using the bloated Mozilla Suite for the tabbed browsing (you had to pay for the slimmer Opera, duh)...
20100730 03:27:04< Aethaeryn> And having to go to IE for about 1/5 of the sites anyway since they were IE only.
20100730 03:27:36< Aethaeryn> (Readable on IE only. Honestly, *all* the sites I went to were probably screwed up in formatting.)
20100730 03:29:24< Aethaeryn> ancestral: how is Apple going to outlive Jobs anyway?
20100730 03:29:49< Aethaeryn> The problem with a movement relying so heavily on one really powerful man is that the movement relies so heavily on one really powerful man.
20100730 03:30:24< ancestral> There are successors in place
20100730 03:30:56< ancestral> And his footprint is smaller than what most people think it is
20100730 03:31:24< noy> Aethaeryn: I think jobs is replaceable, just you needto find the right person. 
20100730 03:31:42< noy> And thats really tough
20100730 03:31:57< noy> do you know much about Hewlett and Packard? 
20100730 03:32:09< Aethaeryn> ancestral: Even if his role is more symbolic than anything else, it's still a powerful symbol.
20100730 03:32:23< Aethaeryn> noy: they make printers.
20100730 03:32:31< Aethaeryn> as well as my laptop and my monitor <_<
20100730 03:32:40< noy> then I guess you don't know about Hewlett and Packard
20100730 03:32:56< ancestral> Aethaeryn: It certainly is, but the company is run by thousands of great engineers and people
20100730 03:33:31< ancestral> Aethaeryn: He may be referring to the individual people and not the company
20100730 03:33:38< noy> Because everybody wanted to emulate David Packard and Bill Hewlett 
20100730 03:33:48< noy> and yes the company too
20100730 03:34:11< Aethaeryn> well, I know a bit about HP
20100730 03:34:16< Aethaeryn> founded in a garage or something
20100730 03:34:18< Aethaeryn> vague references
20100730 03:36:34< Aethaeryn> oh wow, they changed the logo of HP since I got my laptop and monitor
20100730 03:37:32< noy> Yeah, Basically it was the second largest technology company in the United States before 1990... I think
20100730 03:37:35< Aethaeryn> (yeah, I looked HP up on Wikipedia, and yes, they were founded in a garage)
20100730 03:38:11< Aethaeryn> initial investment of $538, now has a revenue of $114.6 billion :o
20100730 03:38:25< noy> It was an industry behemoth, and basically created silicon valley. What we consider Tech business culture was largely their creation. 
20100730 03:38:39< noy> the wiki page is crap
20100730 03:38:50< noy> it doesn't give a sense of what HP was in culture
20100730 03:39:00< noy> and its importance in society
20100730 03:39:19< ancestral> noy: you want behemoth?
20100730 03:39:21< ancestral> See IBM
20100730 03:39:40< ancestral> (back in the day)
20100730 03:40:02< noy> yeah, but you could argue that IBM's influence was limited on defining the tech age. 
20100730 03:40:06< noy> compared to HP
20100730 03:40:53< ancestral> I don't know
20100730 03:41:16< ancestral> IBM was everything. Companies wouldn't work with anyone else because they knew IBM was business.
20100730 03:41:45< Aethaeryn> noy: ah, that's why I know about the garage... apparently it got declared historic a while back.
20100730 03:42:11< Aethaeryn> apparently they did kinda create Silicon Valley
20100730 03:42:26< Aethaeryn> And IBM was very big even before HP
20100730 03:42:48< noy> it was, but IBM only really did computers. HP did everyting
20100730 03:42:49< ancestral> HP is identified by Wired magazine as the producer of the world's first marketed, mass-produced personal computer, the Hewlett-Packard 9100A, introduced in 1968.[17] HP called it a desktop calculator because, as Bill Hewlett said, "If we had called it a computer, it would have been rejected by our customers' computer gurus because it didn't look like an IBM. We therefore decided to call it a calculator, and all such nonsense disappe
20100730 03:43:19< noy> Well, it was the first scientific calculator
20100730 03:43:26< noy> before that everybody used the slide rule
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20100730 03:44:21< Aethaeryn> well, its keyboard goes up to f, so it really is a calculator :-P
20100730 03:44:54< Aethaeryn> interesting though
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20100730 03:45:01< Aethaeryn> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/32/HP0100A_1.jpg
20100730 03:45:33< Aethaeryn> I remember my mom saying that back in the day calculators needed to be plugged in. I didn't think that they started that big!
20100730 03:47:27< noy> well their next calculator was a real breakthrough
20100730 03:48:16< noy> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HP-35
20100730 03:48:24< noy> much smaller and just as effective
20100730 03:48:43< noy> I'd love to talk about it further but I must go
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20100730 03:48:49< Aethaeryn> Ah, okay
20100730 04:00:14< CIA-87> gabba * r44891 /trunk/src/whiteboard/recruit.cpp: Whiteboard/recruit: added a TODO.
20100730 04:00:26< CIA-87> gabba * r44892 /trunk/src/mouse_events.cpp: Whiteboard: reorganise planned unit map scopes in mouse_handler::mouse_motion(), and renew unit map iterators within each scope.
20100730 04:00:43< CIA-87> gabba * r44893 /trunk/src/mouse_events.cpp: Whiteboard: reorganise planned unit map scopes in mouse_handler::select_hex().
20100730 04:00:52< CIA-87> gabba * r44894 /trunk/src/mouse_events.cpp: Whiteboard: reorganise planned unit map scopes in mouse_handler::left_click().
20100730 04:01:01< CIA-87> gabba * r44895 /trunk/src/mouse_events.cpp: Whiteboard: code simplification in mouse_handler::left_click().
20100730 04:01:11< CIA-87> gabba * r44896 /trunk/src/whiteboard/ (4 files): Whiteboard/mapbuilder_visitor: exclude recruits by default.
20100730 04:01:22< CIA-87> gabba * r44897 /trunk/src/whiteboard/ (manager.cpp manager.hpp): Whiteboard: add a new scoped_planned_pathfind_map struct that builds a unit map including recruits (and eventually recalls, dead actions, etc.).
20100730 04:01:30< CIA-87> gabba * r44898 /trunk/src/mouse_events.cpp: Whiteboard: use the planned_pathfind_map to surround pathfinding in mouse_handler::mouse_motion.
20100730 04:01:41< CIA-87> gabba * r44899 /trunk/src/whiteboard/validate_visitor.cpp: Whiteboard: properly invalidate planned recruit location when validating actions.
20100730 04:01:53< CIA-87> gabba * r44900 /trunk/src/whiteboard/validate_visitor.cpp: Whiteboard/recruit: on validation, check the player has enough gold remaining.
20100730 04:02:03< CIA-87> gabba * r44901 /trunk/src/whiteboard/validate_visitor.cpp: Whiteboard/recruit: automatically erase invalid recruits.
20100730 04:02:11< CIA-87> gabba * r44902 /trunk/src/whiteboard/validate_visitor.cpp: Whiteboard/attack: reorganise a bit the validation code.
20100730 04:06:19< Espreon> gabba: Well, looks like someone's embracing "-ise"...
20100730 04:07:04< Espreon> gabba: Whence are you?
20100730 04:07:08< gabba> and what would "-ise" mean?
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20100730 04:08:04< gabba> I'd love to understand your questions, but maybe plain english would work better :P
20100730 04:08:14< Espreon> http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/-ise
20100730 04:08:23< Espreon> gabba: "Whence" = "from where"
20100730 04:09:37< gabba> I'm not aware of having -ised any word lately
20100730 04:09:49< gabba> You want to know from what country I am?
20100730 04:10:24< Espreon> Yeah.
20100730 04:10:33< gabba> ^ah you mean the "reorganise" I guess
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20100730 04:10:53< gabba> I'm from Québec i.e. French Canada
20100730 04:11:15< Espreon> Oh, OK then.
20100730 04:11:48< Espreon> I confused you with someone else, who happens to have a similar nickname. IDK.
20100730 04:11:52< Espreon> Silly me.
20100730 04:12:02< gabba> ok, np
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20100730 04:46:02< CIA-87> espreon * r44903 /trunk/data/campaigns/Under_the_Burning_Suns/units/quenoth/ (Fighter.cfg Twin_Fighter.cfg Twin_Master.cfg): Changed the names of the Fighter line's weapons.
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20100730 06:12:18< CIA-87> gabba * r44904 /trunk/src/whiteboard/ (recruit.cpp recruit.hpp): Whiteboard: simplified Doxygen comment.
20100730 06:12:26< CIA-87> gabba * r44905 /trunk/src/mouse_events.cpp: Whiteboard: modifications to mouse_handler to show attack indicator when OOT.
20100730 06:12:32< CIA-87> gabba * r44906 /trunk/src/ (actions.cpp whiteboard/manager.cpp whiteboard/manager.hpp): Whiteboard: validate planned actions of the viewer side after any move, attack or recruit.
20100730 06:12:38< CIA-87> gabba * r44907 /trunk/src/game_events.cpp: Whiteboard: also validate after any event that changes the gamestate.
20100730 06:12:45< CIA-87> gabba * r44908 /trunk/src/whiteboard/ (manager.cpp manager.hpp): Whiteboard: validate actions at critical places instead of every time the gamestate changes.
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20100730 08:18:39< gabba> Ivanovic: after all I don't think a release on sunday is such a good idea... I'll still need to break a lot of stuff to get out-of-turn planning to work (problems like being able to attack enemies when it's not your turn, whether the wb is enabled or not), and an upcoming release will just force me to work in a branch, with all the merging problems that may entail. I suggest waiting for right after the GSoC for the first release.
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20100730 08:32:09< timotei> morning
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20100730 08:41:11< CIA-87> silene * r44909 /trunk/src/wml_exception.hpp: Inherited from standard exception.
20100730 08:41:14< CIA-87> silene * r44910 /trunk/src/ (wml_exception.cpp wml_exception.hpp): Removed the heavyweight tstring argument, since in most cases, if not all, the string had already been translated at that point.
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20100730 09:18:14< Ivanovic> gabba: okay
20100730 09:18:21< Ivanovic> moin, btw
20100730 09:23:34< timotei> hi
20100730 09:25:15< shadowmaster> morning Ivanovic 
20100730 09:25:31< shadowmaster> first time I see you speak before saying "moin"
20100730 09:26:51< Ivanovic> am too sleepy...
20100730 09:26:52< Ivanovic> ;)
20100730 09:26:55< shadowmaster> I also don't think it's time for a release yet, mainly because the terrain stuff isn't completely solid yet and I'd personally love if this release cycle allowed UMC authors to rely more on their own senses than wmllint for keeping syntax and such up to date
20100730 09:27:02< shadowmaster> regardless of what your opinion is.
20100730 09:27:04< shadowmaster> :P
20100730 09:33:08< Ivanovic> good to know
20100730 09:33:27< Ivanovic> yeah, those things are the reason why i ask basically everyone around if things are ready for release
20100730 09:33:28< Ivanovic> ;)
20100730 09:39:19< silene> then i guess i will commit the lua import; if the release happens only in two weeks, build system maintainers will have ample time to change three lines in their scripts
20100730 10:03:08< CIA-87> silene * r44911 /trunk/src/lua/ (58 files): 
20100730 10:03:08< CIA-87> Imported Lua 5.1.4 into Wesnoth.
20100730 10:03:08< CIA-87> (License: MIT, compatible with GPL, see COPYRIGHT file.)
20100730 10:03:08< CIA-87> Goal: compile it with a C++ compiler, so that it can recover from C++ exceptions.
20100730 10:03:10< CIA-87> silene * r44912 /trunk/src/lua/ (lcode.c ldblib.c liolib.c llex.c loadlib.c lstrlib.c lvm.c): Applied bugfix patch.
20100730 10:03:16< CIA-87> silene * r44913 /trunk/src/lua/ (ldebug.c ldebug.h luaconf.h lvm.c print.c): 
20100730 10:03:16< CIA-87> Forced C++ compilation.
20100730 10:03:16< CIA-87> Fixed conflicts on getline.
20100730 10:03:17< CIA-87> silene * r44914 /trunk/src/lua/ (ldo.c luaconf.h): Improved handling of external exceptions so that they behave like a call to lua_error.
20100730 10:03:20< CIA-87> silene * r44915 /trunk/src/lua/luaconf.h: Applied John V. Belmonte's patch for extending the scope of plugin directories.
20100730 10:03:28< CIA-87> silene * r44916 /trunk/ (4 files in 4 dirs): Switched to embedded Lua.
20100730 10:03:29< CIA-87> silene * r44917 /trunk/src/scripting/lua.cpp: Simplified exception handling for dialog code.
20100730 10:03:31< CIA-87> silene * r44918 /trunk/RELEASE_NOTES: Mentioned Lua import in the release notes.
20100730 10:05:32< shadowmaster> silene: that means that Wesnoth will not depend on the system's lua anymore, right?
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20100730 10:17:09< Rhonda> erm, wait. lua import?
20100730 10:17:16< Rhonda> code duplication?
20100730 10:17:30< Rhonda> Please tell me that this is not true.
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20100730 10:17:49< shadowmaster> I'm worried about the implications for bugs, etc.
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20100730 10:18:10< Rhonda> silene: Why did you do that? What's the reasoning? You are well aware that this is a security and maintenance hell?
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20100730 10:18:19< shadowmaster> particularly if we lose its Wesnothian maintainer for whatever reason.
20100730 10:21:30< silene> Rhonda: because the lua shipped in *nix distribution is not compiled with a c++ compiler, which makes it a pain for wesnoth, from a maintenance and security point of view (the windows version has not this issue); by the way, i'm sure the version shipped with wesnoth has more security fixes than the one shipped in debian
20100730 10:22:15< shadowmaster> wait.
20100730 10:22:16< Rhonda> Then get the fixes sent along instead of forking. Did you try?
20100730 10:22:43< Rhonda> What exactly makes the lua shipped in Debian a pain for wesnoth?
20100730 10:22:56< Rhonda> Or fedora? Or ubuntu? Or opensuse?
20100730 10:23:04< shadowmaster> silene: you know, the Debian security team and archives aren't just some nifty decoration. Stable is continously updated with security fixes for existing packages.
20100730 10:23:45< Rhonda> If you can't hand a prove I have to call your claims FUD and see them as very disturbing, to say the least.
20100730 10:24:21< Rhonda> But have it your way - will there be a switch accompanied with it that makes it possible to use the system lua instead of the pulled-in one?
20100730 10:24:40< silene> Rhonda: if you use the system lua, you are opening a security breach in wesnoth
20100730 10:24:51< Appleman1234> wow
20100730 10:24:56< Rhonda> In what way? Does wesnoth misuse lua somehow?
20100730 10:24:59< Appleman1234> yuck
20100730 10:25:17< shadowmaster> as I said, what if wesnoth's lua tree gets unmaintained for whatever reason?
20100730 10:25:35< Unnheulu> It can be switched back to the system lua then?
20100730 10:25:44< silene> Rhonda: again, lua on linux is not compiled with a c++ compiler, so an exception thrown from the engine causes havoc and memory corruption in the lua code (and the other way around)
20100730 10:25:45< Rhonda> Then damnit try to get the system lua fixed. If it's an issue in lua it's definitely *NOT* something that we want to fix just for ourself.
20100730 10:25:59< shadowmaster> Unnheulu: we'd prefer to not have to fix stuff afterwards like what happened with suokko's AI modifications
20100730 10:26:06< shadowmaster> *revert stuff
20100730 10:26:48< Rhonda> silene: Did you even try to get this fixed on the proper areas instead of pulling a security and maintenance hell into wesnoth?
20100730 10:26:49< CIA-87> thespaceinvader * r44919 /trunk/ (changelog data/core/units/drakes/Clasher.cfg): Fix a bug with the Drake Clasher's attack animations. Update changelog.
20100730 10:27:28< Rhonda> Actually I really consider abandoning my packaging efforts if such approaches are the way to go.
20100730 10:29:02< Rhonda> silene: Did you try to address the issue properly? Get it fixed where it actually happens? Talk with the lua maintainers, e.g. upstream?
20100730 10:29:26< Rhonda> Is this the {\000 issue?
20100730 10:29:40< shadowmaster> ew.
20100730 10:29:51< shadowmaster> Rhonda: no, that has nothing to do with Lua.
20100730 10:30:02< silene> Rhonda: no, it isn't the \0 issue; as i said, the issue is that the system lua is not compiled with a c compiler instead of a c++ compiler
20100730 10:30:03< shadowmaster> at least, it shouldn't, since that's the WML preprocessor and it predates Lua support.
20100730 10:30:31< silene> s/not//
20100730 10:30:33< Unnheulu> Eww, so shadowmaster, that guy changed the ai, and then left?
20100730 10:30:49< Rhonda> silene: Repeating that doesn't answer my question. Have you or have you not tried to get it fixed where it actually happens?
20100730 10:31:04< Rhonda> silene: Have you contacted lua people and did they turn you down?
20100730 10:31:23< Ivanovic> Rhonda: for this you need to contact *ALL* upstream packagers and make them create the binary with a C++ compiler
20100730 10:31:34< Ivanovic> which makes no sense for them since the prog itself is witten in plain C
20100730 10:31:44< Appleman1234> why not have a loader module, that routes the exception to a lua module that is compiled in c++ ?
20100730 10:31:58< silene> Rhonda: you mean asking the compiler to be switched to c++? you mean breaking the 69 packages that depend on the c-compiled lua?
20100730 10:32:02< Ivanovic> but since wesnoth *does* include it and since wesnoth *does* use exceptions (which are not supported in plain C), the issue comes up
20100730 10:32:04< Rhonda> Ivanovic: If it's the proper fix, so? Having the lua people sending an announce out to their packagers isn't something out of the ordinary. Mind you, you do it for every release.
20100730 10:32:26< Ivanovic> it is not the proper fix since some "plain C" progs do depend on lua, too
20100730 10:32:28< shadowmaster> Unnheulu: kind of. He Got Better™ but now he works for the Linux kernel's Direct Rendering Manager (DRM) subsystem and the X AMD ATI Radeon driver
20100730 10:32:48< Rhonda> silene: Then a proper approach would be to offer both a c and c++ compiled library, not?
20100730 10:32:56< shadowmaster> Ivanovic: in such case if there's an important security issue which we haven't heard of in the sec channel either, btw, we can consider dropping Lua support.
20100730 10:32:59< Unnheulu> Bit more of an Ouch place to mess up than the Wesnoth AI I guess
20100730 10:33:05< shadowmaster> instead of overengineering here
20100730 10:33:35< shadowmaster> either that or just making sure Wesnoth doesn't link/run with some Lua versions, etc.
20100730 10:33:48< Rhonda> Ivanovic: Actually I'm really considering postponing my packaging effort instead of supporting immense code duplication with uncertain maintenance state.
20100730 10:33:48< shadowmaster> there must be some way to detect the library version at compile or run-time
20100730 10:34:05< Appleman1234> wait
20100730 10:34:06< Appleman1234> Because the Lua runtime is written in C it cannot use C++ exceptions, so Lua implements this behavior using the C functions setjmp() and longjmp() 
20100730 10:34:20< Appleman1234> after lua 5.1 if compiled with c++ it uses native c++ exceptions
20100730 10:34:33< silene> Appleman1234: yes, that's the point
20100730 10:34:45< shadowmaster> I'm just really worried that Wesnoth will become more of a maintenance hell than it already is.
20100730 10:34:53< shadowmaster> and no, promising that X person will do it forever doesn't work.
20100730 10:35:08< Appleman1234> so why not just use the old c functions if lua isn't compiled with c++
20100730 10:35:58< silene> shadowmaster: it is a maintenance hell currently because i have to track all the security issues linked to that; for instance, when crab committed a patch to the lua part of the engine, i had to go over the patch to fix these issues
20100730 10:36:01< shadowmaster> we also kind of had a policy to not change dependencies in any way without discussing in the mailing list
20100730 10:36:11< shadowmaster> which sadly hasn't been respected
20100730 10:36:23< shadowmaster> silene: and you'll still have to track the upstream issues in the future
20100730 10:36:27< silene> shadowmaster: the rule concerns adding a dependency, not removing one
20100730 10:36:29< shadowmaster> so I don't see what you are really soling
20100730 10:36:34< shadowmaster> *solving
20100730 10:36:38< Rhonda> I think Appleman1234 has a valid point here. lua uses exceptions in some different ways when c compiled, why is that considered not usable?
20100730 10:37:09< silene> Appleman1234: which c functions? wesnoth is written in c++, it doesn't have c functions
20100730 10:37:13< Ivanovic> Rhonda: because wesnoth does use c++ exceptions, not those c functions
20100730 10:37:31< shadowmaster> okay, so, it is a maintenance hell currently (for dubious reasons), so why make it even worse for your successors? P
20100730 10:37:40< Rhonda> Ivanovic: The question is, can't it use those?
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20100730 10:38:12< Rhonda> Ivanovic: Stating the status isn't a reasoning. :)
20100730 10:38:15< Ivanovic> the first question is: what are cases where we get exceptions in the lua (connected) code?
20100730 10:38:28< Ivanovic> as in: how relevant is the issue
20100730 10:38:46< Appleman1234> silene, so Lua implements this behavior using the C functions setjmp() and longjmp() 
20100730 10:38:52< Appleman1234> this done by system lua 
20100730 10:38:52< Ivanovic> second question then has to be: what are the ways around this
20100730 10:38:55< Appleman1234> not wesnoth ...
20100730 10:39:01< Rhonda> silene: Then beat crab over the head instead of shifting the maintenance hell.
20100730 10:39:08< silene> shadowmaster: just imagine that someone add an exception in the unit::set_hitpoints function (no idea why, i'm jsut taking a random function of wesnoth unrelated to lua directly), then suddenly it opens a breach in wesnoth
20100730 10:39:24< Appleman1234> the only concern with having the system lua uses those functions is that they have some nuances
20100730 10:39:37< Appleman1234> as listed on the http://lua-users.org/wiki/CatchingLuaExceptions page 
20100730 10:39:42< shadowmaster> As I said, if Lua will become a security concern, then just drop it.
20100730 10:39:50< shadowmaster> like we did with Python AIs.
20100730 10:40:05< Rhonda> Why not write an exception class that makes use of the provided function?
20100730 10:40:20< silene> Appleman1234: the issue is not with lua exceptions; all of them are caught; the issue are with the c++ exception thrown from the engine
20100730 10:40:29< Appleman1234> ok
20100730 10:40:39< Rhonda> shadowmaster: How much would that affect? What if I disable lua on Debian right ahead?
20100730 10:40:55< Appleman1234> and the c++ exceptions aren't caught because lua doesn't catch them ?
20100730 10:40:56< shadowmaster> Rhonda: at the moment, it'd make most WML content unusable
20100730 10:41:08< shadowmaster> this is because some basic functions were moved from C++ to Lua for some reason
20100730 10:41:09< Ivanovic> Rhonda: not possible, mandatory right now
20100730 10:41:35< Rhonda> shadowmaster: Then it's not "like we did with Python AIs" because that was used only in one scenario of a campaign, IIRC.
20100730 10:41:53< Appleman1234> is lua supposed to catch them ? or is this a c++ exception when calling the c++ from lua ?
20100730 10:41:57< Ivanovic> python was only used for ai stuff and not widely used at all
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20100730 10:43:35< silene> Appleman1234: there are the two ways around; when lua calls a c++ function and this function throws, you lose (from a security point of view); when c++ can't call lua_pcall, you lose (from a code maintainability point of view)
20100730 10:43:51< silene> s/lua_pcall/lua_call/
20100730 10:44:07< shadowmaster> Rhonda: IMHO it's still something to consider if Lua is as unsafe as it seems to be the point here. Instead of  pulling upstream into Wesnoth and having to maintain that *apart * from Wesnoth.
20100730 10:44:18< shadowmaster> argh, so much lag at my end
20100730 10:44:25< Appleman1234> makes sense to just make a c wrapper to me .....
20100730 10:44:46< Appleman1234> be back later dinner
20100730 10:45:06< silene> Appleman1234: for an example, look at the latest commit; by having a c++-compiled lua, i was able to remove 40% of the code in a part of the engine
20100730 10:45:08< shadowmaster> it seems to be attractive to just take a bunch of code/module(s) and mark that as a single developer's territory, but that doesn't scale well over time
20100730 10:45:50< Rhonda> silene: It would still be a sane approach to have such a discussion _before_ pulling in and creating a mess like that.
20100730 10:46:04< shadowmaster> so if, i.e. silene gets run over by a truck, then someone else will have to track upstream and update our embedded lua
20100730 10:46:16< Rhonda> I'm sorry, but I really have to reconsider my involvement on the grounds of that approach.
20100730 10:46:43< shadowmaster> and it'll be hard to find such a "someone else"
20100730 10:46:51< shadowmaster> if not impossible
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20100730 10:48:00< silene> shadowmaster: so you think it's harder to find someone that takes a look at a webpage from time to time rather than finding someone that can track the security implications of using a c-compiled lua in wesnoth?
20100730 10:48:23< silene> i'm actually making the maintainance of the lua code simpler here
20100730 10:48:24< Rhonda> Why does http://www.heise.de/software/download/battle_for_wesnoth/18729 say "License: commercial"?
20100730 10:48:31< shadowmaster> take a look at a webpage, merge patches, analyze those patches.
20100730 10:49:03< shadowmaster> I've never commented much on it but I've been opposed to the inclusion of lua since day zero, and you can see why
20100730 10:49:13< Rhonda> silene: Erm, maintaning that fork isn't a simple "take a look at a webpage from time to time".
20100730 10:49:49< Rhonda> You are belittling that task, including the requirements of having to do releases that aren't in our schedule.
20100730 10:50:15< Ivanovic> Rhonda: because this page is f***ed up
20100730 10:50:22< Ivanovic> Rhonda: just have a look at the file size
20100730 10:50:35< Ivanovic> it does mix the iphone port with the "latest release"
20100730 10:51:12< silene> shadowmaster: what are you waiting for? you should already be complaining loudly about ana; if not, the same mishap will happen again
20100730 10:51:35< shadowmaster> ah, but ana is a different case :)
20100730 10:51:47< shadowmaster> it's tailored for wesnoth. Very different case and I really don't understand why you mention it at all.
20100730 10:52:20< silene> shadowmaster: because if billynux goes under a truck, the situation will be even worse
20100730 10:52:42< shadowmaster> no, since we can understand how it works
20100730 10:52:59< shadowmaster> it's neither a series of ugly patches,, nor something we have to track as the work made by someone else who's got nothing to do with us
20100730 10:53:53< shadowmaster> and the whole purpose is to replace the current networking code which has many inherent pitfalls that are, again, out of the scope of this discussion.
20100730 10:57:15< silene> shadowmaster: you are conflating two things; there is the wesnoth side of ana, which is obviously tailored for wesnoth, and the library side of ana, which is supposed to leave wesnoth at the end of gsoc; and you will have to track the latter
20100730 10:57:23< shadowmaster> anyway, I'm off to bed because it's just 5 am minus 3
20100730 10:57:43< shadowmaster> silene: right, and you are assuming I didn't know about that.
20100730 10:58:13< silene> shadowmaster: you are the one who said "nor something we have to track as the work made by someone else who's got nothing to do with us"
20100730 10:58:35< shadowmaster> yes, I did. You don't need to quote myself, I can read )
20100730 10:58:58< silene> good
20100730 10:59:34< shadowmaster> you just seem to be underestimating the work involved in tracking something like lua and updating it according to any external events, badly.
20100730 11:00:23< shadowmaster> and again, if the C/C++ interoperatibility was already a known issue at the time Lua support was added to Wesnoth, then maybe it shouldn't have considered in the first place.
20100730 11:00:35< shadowmaster> *been considered
20100730 11:00:49< silene> shadowmaster: no, i'm not underestimating it; lua has been left unchanged for two years; there have been a patch this year, which hasn't even been picked up by debian, since it doesn't really have security concerns
20100730 11:01:46-!- dtiger [~dtiger@dynamic-vpdn-93-125-15-124.telecom.by] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20100730 11:01:53< shadowmaster> and who guarantees that it'll not change in some way in the future, and somehow wesnoth will be one of the only clients left using a particular version of lua?
20100730 11:02:09< silene> shadowmaster: how is that a problem?
20100730 11:02:15< shadowmaster> then we go back to the "take patch, analyze, merge" part
20100730 11:02:21< silene> why?
20100730 11:02:56< shadowmaster> if Wesnoth advertises to support lua, it supports lua. Whatever is the "current" lua.
20100730 11:03:22< shadowmaster> in any case, I'm neither a packager nor a module maintainer, so you can ignore my arguments if you want.
20100730 11:03:48< shadowmaster> I already see that the idea is to move as much aof Wesnoth as possible to a different language and if that's the trend, then I'm done as code developer
20100730 11:04:28< Rhonda> silene: If Debian is the one of the only clients left using a particular version of lua wesnoth has to do active upstream work on the lua code.
20100730 11:04:54< Rhonda> And I don't think that the wesnoth team is interested to do upstream work on lua.
20100730 11:05:37< silene> shadowmaster: only a single file was moved (and only partly), it amounts to 1% of the code of wesnoth; the "as much as possible" is kind of exagerated
20100730 11:06:08< Rhonda> The commit message spoke of importing 58 files, not one.
20100730 11:06:21< shadowmaster> again, are we working to build a new past, or a new future?
20100730 11:06:33< Rhonda> And "applied bugfix patch" touched 7 files.
20100730 11:06:35< shadowmaster> I don't care about how much code was "moved", but how much code you'll want to "move"
20100730 11:06:49< silene> Rhonda: the imported files are not lua files
20100730 11:06:56< Rhonda> ?!
20100730 11:07:06< Rhonda> Imported Lua 5.1.4 into Wesnoth.
20100730 11:07:12< silene> shadowmaster: i don't intend to move more than game_events.cpp
20100730 11:07:18< Rhonda> How aren't they lua files if you used that commit message?
20100730 11:07:35< shadowmaster> silene: right.
20100730 11:07:43< shadowmaster> There goes my reason for learning C++. :/
20100730 11:07:48< silene> Rhonda: they are c files (c++); wesnoth is not changed to a new language
20100730 11:08:25< Appleman1234> back
20100730 11:08:27< Rhonda> silene: But it will require from the team to do upstream work on c files in the potential future.
20100730 11:09:10< Ivanovic> silene: Rhonda means "lua files" as in "files that are part of lua itself" not "code written in lua and the files ending with .lua"
20100730 11:09:43< shadowmaster> so as I said, I don't care. You can do whatever you want and drive the project's foundations to any place you want, for the better or the worse. I expected Wesnoth would head towards the more positive side but  after the partial disaster that was Wesnoth 1.8, precisely because of certain lack of coordination within the development team, and between them and the community, I guess that's not really going to happen in the near ...
20100730 11:09:49< shadowmaster> ... future.
20100730 11:10:07< silene> Rhonda: i prefer having the team do a bit of maintainance work every two years, rather than being the only developer understanding the lua engine and hence either letting it rot or cluttering it with security breaches
20100730 11:10:31< shadowmaster> you are free to experiment with project maintenance as far as I'm concerned and you know I'm no-one to stop anybody ^_^
20100730 11:10:38< shadowmaster> (unless you mess with the community, that is)
20100730 11:10:42< Appleman1234> ...
20100730 11:11:04< Rhonda> silene: _You_ are adding potential security breaches that the team as a whole has to track and be able to fix.
20100730 11:11:18< Appleman1234> I don't know what to say, and I don't know why the exceptions can't be caught and converted ?
20100730 11:11:38< shadowmaster> Appleman1234: because they aren't exceptions
20100730 11:11:47< shadowmaster> I mean, longjmp/nearjmp aren't exceptions for C++.
20100730 11:11:51< Rhonda> shadowmaster: They can be wrapped around to throw ones.
20100730 11:11:53< silene> Appleman1234: i didn't say they can't, i said it was a maintenance nightmare
20100730 11:12:15< shadowmaster> mixing them in C++ code requires careful crafting to avoid going into situations which could cause undefined behavior when returning into a setjmp point
20100730 11:12:22< shadowmaster> a setjmp point in the C++ code, more specifically
20100730 11:13:03< shadowmaster> I myself have had to deal with his a bit since wesnoth-tc calls libpng routines which advertise themselves as longjmp/nearjmp users
20100730 11:14:06< shadowmaster> Rhonda: the wrapping around seems to be the oft-mentioined "maintenance hell" that was already occurring.
20100730 11:14:27< shadowmaster> then again, that surely was consideredi n the design phase. I hope.
20100730 11:15:43< Appleman1234> here might have something http://lua-users.org/wiki/LuaAndExceptionsHackingNotes
20100730 11:16:09< Rhonda> shadowmaster: I don't follow. How is having a warpper done once properly and use that where needed?
20100730 11:16:22< Rhonda> … create a maintenance hell?
20100730 11:18:15< Appleman1234> I had no intention of mixing them, rather catching the exception and throwing a different more lua compatible exception if the system lua is compiled with c....
20100730 11:18:46< Rhonda> I really would welcome such an approach.
20100730 11:18:53< silene> Appleman1234: note that this page explains how to modify the source code (!) of lua to make it support exceptions
20100730 11:18:59< shadowmaster> Rhonda: apparently it requires doing that for every lua call.
20100730 11:18:59< shadowmaster> Rhonda: apparently it requires doing that for every lua call.more than that, I don't know.
20100730 11:19:08< shadowmaster> sigh. lag.
20100730 11:19:20< Appleman1234> silene, yeah, it was from several years ago
20100730 11:19:31< shadowmaster> third time I say I'm going to sleep and this time I'm truly afk, see ya tomorrow when the net link doesn't lag so much
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20100730 11:19:56< silene> Appleman1234: and it was included in lua since then, but it still requires a c++ compiler (obviously, since it mentions exceptions)
20100730 11:20:37< Appleman1234> that depends on what heading on the page you were reading
20100730 11:21:43< silene> Appleman1234: the very first ones: "As of version 5.1 built as C++. "
20100730 11:22:04< Appleman1234> it was the latter headings that offered more information to me
20100730 11:22:23< silene> Appleman1234: if you don't build as c++, you can't do that: catch (struct lua_longjump * p_lj)
20100730 11:22:59< Appleman1234> that isn't what I meant ...
20100730 11:23:20< silene> Appleman1234: then i don't know what you mean; the whole page assumes that lua was compiled in c++ mode
20100730 11:23:42< Appleman1234> my apologies for suggesting it then ....
20100730 11:24:02< Appleman1234> I will see if I can find something else more suitable
20100730 11:24:41< Appleman1234> not that it will matter since you have already made the commit and several others with consoltation but meh
20100730 11:28:19-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: 130 bugs, 283 feature requests, 13 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
20100730 11:30:56< Rhonda> Hmm, alright.
20100730 11:31:26< Rhonda> monotone, nmap, ocropus, enigma, freeciv, spring also do embed lua.
20100730 11:31:51< Rhonda> enigma for the same reason stated, with requiring lua built with c++
20100730 11:32:38< Rhonda> I don't have to like it, and I seem to be fighting a lost case here with not very proper and helpful discussions, so be it.
20100730 11:33:55< Appleman1234> probably makes more sense for upstream to ship two binaries or support both exception types regardless of what lua was built with
20100730 11:35:06< Rhonda> which upstream?
20100730 11:36:16< Appleman1234> lua upstream
20100730 11:36:30< Appleman1234> http://www.fensende.com/~mcuddy/ltn/luapp.html is also somewhat interesting if not outdated
20100730 11:39:03< Unnheulu> XMoto doesn't embed Lua
20100730 11:40:03< Ivanovic> silene: could you maybe write a mail to the dev-ml so that every dev is aware of the situation and it can be discussed?
20100730 11:40:20< Ivanovic> it might be that this is the only sane solution in the end, yeah, but we should check anyway
20100730 11:40:33< Appleman1234> they (upstream lua) would probably go about doing that by making a c++ library that gets called by c code ... 
20100730 11:41:00< CIA-87> gabba * r44920 /trunk/src/mouse_events.cpp: Whiteboard: Allow OOT attack planning, without allowing attacks vs own units or actually executing attack OOT.
20100730 11:41:03< CIA-87> gabba * r44921 /trunk/src/whiteboard/manager.cpp: Whiteboard: update help message to reflect change to the Tab key as the 'whiteboard-on-demand'.
20100730 11:41:11< CIA-87> gabba * r44922 /trunk/src/ (play_controller.hpp whiteboard/manager.cpp): Whiteboard: disallow using the whiteboard when in linger mode.
20100730 11:41:15< CIA-87> gabba * r44923 /trunk/src/whiteboard/manager.cpp: Whiteboard: shortened help message.
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20100730 12:30:08< Unnheulu> Internet trouble?
20100730 12:30:36< timotei> who?wher?
20100730 12:30:41< Unnheulu> You :P
20100730 12:30:51< Unnheulu> 9leave/join pairs
20100730 12:30:54< Unnheulu> *4
20100730 12:31:20< timotei> :-??
20100730 12:31:23< timotei> don't know
20100730 12:31:35-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has quit [Quit: noy]
20100730 12:31:47< Unnheulu> You've had 3 ping timeouts
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20100730 14:04:43< CIA-87> loonycyborg * r44924 /trunk/ (SConstruct src/SConscript src/lua/SConscript): Switch scons to use internal lua.
20100730 14:18:27< silene> Ivanovic: done
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20100730 14:25:16< zookeeper> so is it not possible, instead of actually having a copy of the lua source in the repo, to make wesnoth depend on the lua source and then just have the normal build process compile it with the c++ compiler and...make it work that way, somehow? </noncoder>
20100730 14:27:27< timotei> haha, one more reason Windows rocks :D
20100730 14:28:12< zookeeper> maybe we could just drop *nix support!
20100730 14:28:20 * zookeeper ducks
20100730 14:28:31< timotei> :))
20100730 14:28:32< loonycyborg> Yes. On windows you'd probably not even had the option of having custom-compiled third party library :P
20100730 14:28:47< loonycyborg> And options are bad!
20100730 14:28:55< timotei> hehe
20100730 14:29:56< timotei> well, for cases like this. wouldn't be better to make a simple pool: yes/no, keep it open for 1 week and if no other alternatives arise, take that for granted
20100730 14:31:22< loonycyborg> Opinion pools aren't very useful when most participants don't know/care about the matter at hand.
20100730 14:32:01< timotei> well, then, opinion pools and everybody to argue why he choosed that.
20100730 14:32:12< timotei> that way you really know/care about that
20100730 14:32:14-!- prkc [~negusnyul@145.236.180.41] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100730 14:32:58 * zookeeper points to the mailing list thread for that
20100730 14:35:14< loonycyborg> Rhonda is leery about this in-tree lua stuff because she'd need to think that whether in-tree lua is patched with same patches as debian's own lua and whether it should be patched etc..
20100730 14:35:40< loonycyborg> Such in-tree dependencies are just extra headache for packagers..
20100730 14:53:43< Ivanovic> silene: is lua required for wesnothd?
20100730 14:54:01< silene> Ivanovic: no
20100730 14:58:50< timotei> do #textdomain appear more than once in a file?
20100730 14:59:16< timotei> they are usually the first statement (non-comment) of the config file
20100730 14:59:18< timotei> ?
20100730 15:02:36< silene> timotei: it depends, in user-written files, usually not; but if you load a savegame, you would see lots of them
20100730 15:02:59< timotei> silene: I'm talking striclty about user made content, so the former
20100730 15:03:47< silene> timotei: it's unusual, but it's completely supported and my be useful in quite a few situations
20100730 15:03:55< zookeeper> yes, it's useful
20100730 15:04:01< timotei> oh great
20100730 15:05:19< zookeeper> if you're making, say, UMC units then you might want to change the textdomains on the bits which define for example attack names, so that they automatically use the core translations instead of your UMC's translator having to translate "sword" and "fireball" again.
20100730 15:05:48< timotei> oh
20100730 15:07:52< timotei> zookeeper: are they usually written outside any tags, or they are written inside tags too?
20100730 15:08:56< timotei> it seems the grammar of wml is so hard to be written formaly:(
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20100730 15:12:43< Ivanovic> silene: how to best test if lua really works?
20100730 15:13:08< Ivanovic> timotei: there can be >1 #textdomain statement
20100730 15:13:20< Ivanovic> timotei: this is to "reuse" existing strings
20100730 15:16:11< silene> Ivanovic: launch the test scenario; there should be a message in the chat log, a message in a label, some shields on the map; if you move a unit on "custom dialog", you will get a dialog box
20100730 15:16:22< zookeeper> timotei, umm, well they can be pretty much anywhere
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20100730 15:16:35< zookeeper> if they're in the middle of a file then yes, they're...always, i think, inside a tag
20100730 15:17:00< zookeeper> (well, not necessarily)
20100730 15:17:18< silene> timotei: they may even be written inside of an attribute value (in case it is the concatenation of two translatable strings from different domains)
20100730 15:21:20< timotei> oh god
20100730 15:21:40-!- Greywhind [~Greywhind@fw-34-17.cs.brown.edu] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100730 15:22:48< CIA-87> ivanovic * r44925 /trunk/ (CMakeLists.txt src/CMakeLists.txt): 
20100730 15:22:48< CIA-87> add lua support to the cmake recipe
20100730 15:22:48< CIA-87> @crab_, mordante, timotei, ...: please check that it really works as expected (eg msvc builds!), looks good over here with plain commandline builds
20100730 15:23:37< timotei> umm...
20100730 15:24:12< timotei> I'll test the native msvc :P
20100730 15:32:45< Ivanovic> mordante, billynux: hmm, something is really screwed with cmake out of tree builds atm
20100730 15:33:02< Ivanovic> that is: they simply seem to not work, the files are written into the checkout dir
20100730 15:33:36< CIA-87> loonycyborg * r44926 /trunk/src/SConscript: Made tests compile again.
20100730 15:35:10< Ivanovic> wesbot: seen mordante
20100730 15:35:10< wesbot> Ivanovic: The person with the nick mordante last spoke 2d 16h ago.  2d 16h ago was here and on the channel #wesnoth-de with the message: Quit: Leaving
20100730 15:51:57< timotei> Upthorn: hi:D
20100730 16:30:23< Ivanovic> currently trying to bisect the issue, looks like r42766 was still good, now testing r43766
20100730 16:32:53< Ivanovic> 43916 is fine, too
20100730 16:33:53< timotei> Ivanovic: what issue?
20100730 16:35:02< Ivanovic> timotei: out of tree builds not working over here
20100730 16:35:15< timotei> :|
20100730 16:35:35< timotei> hmm, Ivanovic, should be wesnoth-lua a separate lib? (generated)?
20100730 16:35:52< timotei> I want to make the mscv project file up-to-date
20100730 16:35:55< timotei> msvc*
20100730 16:35:57< Ivanovic> timotei: no reason to do so, a compile block that is statically linked in should be fine
20100730 16:36:07< Ivanovic> (that is what i have done in the cmake recipe)
20100730 16:38:43< Ivanovic> r44416 is still fine
20100730 16:41:33< timotei> Ivanovic: last yesterday compile worked fine. what errors you get?
20100730 16:41:45< Ivanovic> timotei: compiling with a working checkout ain't no problem
20100730 16:42:00< Ivanovic> timotei: it is just that the build files are always written into the checkout dir
20100730 16:43:51< timotei> umm... that is the same folder where... "data' folder for example, sits?
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20100730 16:44:48< Ivanovic> hmm, strange, after the gradual update it seems to work over here with head
20100730 16:44:54< Ivanovic> but with a checkout it was not working...
20100730 16:45:06< Ivanovic> (checkout as in "freshly done")
20100730 16:45:13< Ivanovic> redoing the fresh checkout now
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20100730 16:52:41< Ivanovic> hmm, everything seems to work now...
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20100730 16:55:56< Ivanovic> jepp, things do work with a clean checkout, too
20100730 16:56:01< Ivanovic> no idea what was going on there...
20100730 16:57:40< timotei> maybe cached things?
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20100730 17:05:15< Ivanovic> timotei: had the same problems in a completely fresh checkout, too
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20100730 17:05:23< Ivanovic> yeah, some strange stuff going on there...
20100730 17:05:36< Ivanovic> anyway, everything appears to be working over here
20100730 17:05:53< Ivanovic> timotei: does the vc++ creation stuff work with lua support added?
20100730 17:06:14< timotei> Ivanovic: I'm sorry. I didn't make that since I'm working on the wml grammar now :))
20100730 17:06:23< timotei> but soon (+30 minutes or so) I'll try make it
20100730 17:08:41< Ivanovic> oaky
20100730 17:14:42< alink> seems that lua now need g++ (and not just gcc). My old svn tree used gcc (not sure why) and that worked fine before
20100730 17:15:14< alink> but that's a good thing :-)
20100730 17:16:14< Ivanovic> in the old tree there should not have been lua included
20100730 17:16:36< timotei> oh god. another thing broke my wml gramamr
20100730 17:16:37< timotei> grrrrr
20100730 17:16:52< alink> Ivanovic: I mean old as not really used by me, but still updated to check stuff
20100730 17:17:31< alink> because it's less full hacks compared to my git tree used for developement 
20100730 17:17:41< alink> *full of hacks
20100730 17:20:12< CIA-87> ivanovic * r44927 /trunk/po/ (4 files in 4 dirs): updated Japanese translation
20100730 17:20:13< CIA-87> ivanovic * r44928 /branches/1.8/po/ (wesnoth/ja.po wesnoth-low/ja.po): updated Japanese translation
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20100730 17:28:19-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: 131 bugs, 283 feature requests, 13 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
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20100730 17:56:49< alink> does someone else use automake out of tree build ?
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20100730 18:09:21< silene> alink: i don't; it should mostly work, except for the lua part
20100730 18:10:17< alink> silene: yeah, it usually works, but I have troubles with the part 
20100730 18:10:22< alink> *lua part
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20100730 18:10:59< silene> that's not surprising; that's the only part that is still under the rules of plain Makefile instead of a Makefile.am
20100730 18:11:24< silene> alink: I can move it to autotools if you need it
20100730 18:11:45< alink> silene: that would be nice
20100730 18:11:56< alink> I suppose I may hack something using symlink, but a clean fix is better
20100730 18:12:13< alink> *hack locally 
20100730 18:28:08< alink> manually creating a symlink fix it for me for the moment
20100730 18:28:34< alink> silene: does such line $(MAKE) -C lua/ a CC="$(CXX)" pass the -oN parameter ?
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20100730 18:30:39< alink> mmh I suspect that i should start more make --jobs when I have a lot of ccache hits
20100730 18:30:52< alink> but no idea how to auto-detect that
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20100730 18:40:16< alink> frogatto at indiegames : http://www.indiegames.com/blog/2010/07/freeware_game_pick_frogatto_te.html
20100730 18:40:26< timotei> niceeeeeeeee
20100730 18:40:26< timotei> :D
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20100730 18:55:10< timotei> silene: is lua used by wesnothd too?
20100730 18:55:33< alink> 14:53 <Ivanovic> silene: is lua required for wesnothd?
20100730 18:55:35< alink> 14:54 <silene> Ivanovic: no
20100730 18:55:39< timotei> oh, lol :))
20100730 18:55:40< timotei> thanks
20100730 18:55:57< timotei> my question was a 'bit' different :P
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20100730 19:27:04< eleazar_> Ivanovic: are you still intending a release this sunday?
20100730 19:28:42< alink> eleazar_: no, I think it's reported to the end of GSoC (in 2 weeks ?)
20100730 19:29:03< alink> eleazar_: at least it's not sunday
20100730 19:29:09< eleazar_> alink: good, thanks
20100730 19:29:39< timotei> gsoc ends in 20
20100730 19:29:40< timotei> :P
20100730 19:29:55< eleazar_> 20 weeks?
20100730 19:30:28< timotei> :))
20100730 19:30:33< timotei> no. in 20 August :)
20100730 19:30:51< timotei> It was interesting to be 20 weeks gsoc
20100730 19:31:00< eleazar_> ah
20100730 19:31:25< timotei> I don't want to imagine a proposal for 20 weeks
20100730 19:31:36< timotei> maybe something like: port entire wesnoth to openGL will do
20100730 19:31:39< alink> how much time was this one ?
20100730 19:31:43< timotei> hmm
20100730 19:31:46< timotei> 25 May - 20 August
20100730 19:31:49< timotei> officialy
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20100730 19:33:55< alink> <shadowmaster> I also don't think it's time for a release yet, mainly because the terrain stuff isn't completely solid
20100730 19:34:11< alink> shadowmaster: ^ what are you referring to ?
20100730 19:35:45< eleazar_> i don't know what he has in mind, most water animation is disabled while i mess with water colors.
20100730 19:36:57< eleazar_> There's a lot of other stuff that will change, but i can't think of anything else that would be a problem for a release
20100730 19:37:25< alink> He added "I'd personally love if this release cycle allowed UMC authors to rely more on their own senses than wmllint for keeping syntax and such up to date"
20100730 19:37:55< alink> so I assumed some WML stuff, maybe terrain macro ?
20100730 19:38:28< eleazar_> oh, i think i talked with him about possible changes to the new brick wall
20100730 19:38:48< eleazar_> more like probable extreme changes
20100730 19:39:29< eleazar_> Since it doesn't mesh with anything, and it's WML makes it unlikely to play nice with other terrains anyway
20100730 19:40:04< eleazar_> not that it wouldn't be replaced with a different "wall"
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20100730 19:40:32< alink> ok
20100730 19:41:37< eleazar_> i don't intend to address the wall very soon
20100730 19:44:33< CIA-87> mordante * r44929 /trunk/src/persist_context.hpp: Add a virtual destructor.
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20100730 19:58:05< alink> wesbot:  seen Yoyobuae 
20100730 19:58:05< wesbot> alink: The person with the nick Yoyobuae last spoke 11d 22h ago.  11d 11h ago they left with the message: Client Quit
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20100730 20:11:07< eleazar_> General Solicitation of Opinion:
20100730 20:11:07< eleazar_> With a dev release there are two different ways i could meet it.  I could go either way.
20100730 20:11:07< eleazar_> 1) Polish and refine current unfinished terrains
20100730 20:11:08< eleazar_> 2) Hastily add a bunch of planned terrains so campaign makers have access even if the terrains are rough.  I wouldn't commit anything junkier than the worst that existed in 1.8
20100730 20:13:29-!- alink changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: 131 bugs, 283 feature requests, 13 patches | Wesnoth Licensing Meeting at 16:00 GMT on Sunday August 1st | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
20100730 20:13:47< alink> ^added a reminder to the Wesnoth Licensing Meeting
20100730 20:14:12< Ke> about the iPhone -issue?
20100730 20:14:42< alink> about Wesnoth Licensing
20100730 20:20:34< Gambit> 1 day, 21 hours, 39 minutes
20100730 20:22:41< Ivanovic> eleazar_: you basically got at least a week to add stuff
20100730 20:22:52< Ivanovic> should be fine to first add new stuff and then start polishing it, right?
20100730 20:22:54< Ivanovic> ;)
20100730 20:34:18< billynux> sunday 16GMT is grandma's pasta time :(
20100730 20:34:51< noy> billynux: unfortunately its about the only time we can have everybody up
20100730 20:35:02< billynux> I  know...
20100730 20:35:18< timotei> billynux: there will be logs:>:D
20100730 20:35:28< noy> timotei: I'm not sure there will be
20100730 20:35:30< billynux> noy, any idea how long the meeting would take?
20100730 20:35:34< timotei> oh
20100730 20:35:36< noy> maybe an hour
20100730 20:35:38< alink> billynux: you have 1 day, 21 hours to make her a wesnoth dev, then she will surely join the meeting instead of cooking
20100730 20:35:44< billynux> noy, I strongly recommend logs, not necessarily public
20100730 20:35:48< alink> just need few patches :-)
20100730 20:35:51< noy> That will be thecase
20100730 20:35:56< noy> not public ones
20100730 20:36:12< billynux> ok, and I imagine I can request them later
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