--- Log opened Tue Aug 03 00:00:26 2010
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20100803 00:09:51< CIA-87> fendrin * r45130 /trunk/data/hardwired/english.cfg: Added a translatable string that descirbes the liminal alignment.
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20100803 01:15:44< CIA-87> fendrin * r45131 /trunk/data/campaigns/Under_the_Burning_Suns/ (5 files in 5 dirs): 
20100803 01:15:44< CIA-87> UtBS:
20100803 01:15:44< CIA-87> Work on the time schedule.
20100803 01:15:44< CIA-87> And more.
20100803 01:16:22< CIA-87> fendrin * r45132 /trunk/data/hardwired/english.cfg: Better description for the liminal alignment.
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20100803 01:55:39< SpoOkyMagician> Crab_: might I ask you a question?
20100803 01:56:11< SpoOkyMagician> or any other dev
20100803 01:56:24< SpoOkyMagician> (that isn't busy)
20100803 01:58:55< eleazar_> SpoOkyMagician: ask.  it is an open channel.
20100803 02:00:03< SpoOkyMagician> very well, anyway, (http://pastebin.com/BWk8Nhss) is these errors possibly dangerous/memory leakage/etc? (the ai attacking ones. I just want to be sure before I release this addon.)
20100803 02:00:16< SpoOkyMagician> (im no expert on the matter)
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20100803 02:03:24< SpoOkyMagician> if it's not a problem, I'll leave it be. if it is, I will have to remove this "gravity code" i wrote
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20100803 02:04:58< CIA-87> billynux * r45133 /trunk/src/ (ana/api/ana.hpp network_async.cpp network_async.hpp): 
20100803 02:04:58< CIA-87> s/\t/ / in ana.hpp and some work on the new network API. On my own, I'm
20100803 02:04:58< CIA-87> working on modifying the implementation of every piece of code that uses the
20100803 02:04:58< CIA-87> network to use this new API. I have modified a few files so far, but it appears
20100803 02:04:58< CIA-87> to be a pretty big task.
20100803 02:05:21< billynux> bye all
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20100803 02:06:01 * SpoOkyMagician waits
20100803 02:07:01< Espreon> SpoOkyMagician should come back with it is day in Europe.
20100803 02:07:34< SpoOkyMagician> meh it's 8 pm here
20100803 02:08:03< Espreon> But still...
20100803 02:08:32< SpoOkyMagician> yea
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20100803 02:13:48< fendrin> shadowm_laptop: Are you around?
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20100803 02:29:05< shadowm_laptop> fendrin: no
20100803 02:29:26< fendrin> shadowm_laptop: When do you have time?
20100803 02:29:40< shadowm_laptop> for what?
20100803 02:29:57< fendrin> shadowm_laptop: I want to hear your opinion about how utbs goes.
20100803 02:30:32< shadowmaster> I suspect I don't want to know.
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20100803 02:30:48< shadowmaster> ISTR reading some commit message about ToD stuff.
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20100803 02:32:55< fendrin> shadowmaster: I bet you did since I was working on that lately.
20100803 02:34:40< shadowmaster> also, someone doesn't like DM.
20100803 02:34:47< shadowmaster> http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?p=447081#p447081
20100803 02:35:26< fendrin> shadowmaster: I saw it. There are even rumors out that people exist that don't like LoW.
20100803 02:35:51< shadowmaster> what a surprise.
20100803 02:35:55< fendrin> Sounds to me like the deny of the moon landing.
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20100803 02:40:09< fendrin> shadowmaster: Okay, so for the protocol, you have been asked. I did take the time to scan my schema drawing of the new time schedule.
20100803 02:40:15< fendrin> Do you want to see it?
20100803 02:40:52< shadowmaster> sure
20100803 02:42:53< fendrin> shadowmaster: http://imagebin.org/107887
20100803 02:43:45< shadowmaster> asdf
20100803 02:44:12< shadowmaster> do you realize you could have scaled it down first/used a lower scanning resolution? :)
20100803 02:44:23< fendrin> Note that the old bright sun is green and traveling from left to right while the new red sun is travelling in the oposite direction. That is only so for better drawing purposes. They can easily be traveling in the same direction if that is easier to read.
20100803 02:45:06< fendrin> bright is travelling on the outher ring, red on the inner.
20100803 02:46:29< shadowmaster> okay.
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20100803 02:47:51< fendrin> shadowmaster: Can you read it?
20100803 02:48:04< shadowmaster> yes, except the names
20100803 02:48:06< fendrin> Ther is a horizon, so everthing under it means it will be night.
20100803 02:48:21< fendrin> shadowmaster: No Problem I can explain every time of day in detail.
20100803 02:49:50< Espreon> shadowmaster: Who can read the names?
20100803 02:51:50< fendrin> 1. First Dawn 2. First Morning 3. First Afternoon 4. First Dusk 5.Second Dawn 6.Twilight 7.Sunshift 8. Second Morning 9. Second Afternoon 10. Second Twilight 11. First Watch 12. Second Watch.
20100803 02:52:45< shadowmaster> I can't understand this Twilight thing.
20100803 02:52:56< shadowmaster> or Sunshift
20100803 02:53:36< fendrin> Sunshift is the time of day where one sun is vanishing and the second one is raising at the same time.
20100803 02:53:52< fendrin> The Twilight thing is a day where only the red sun is around.
20100803 02:54:04< fendrin> That means it is a quite dusk day.
20100803 02:54:53< shadowmaster> ahh.
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20100803 02:55:17< shadowmaster> well, regarding the names...uh. I was under the impression that Twilight == Dusk in English.
20100803 02:55:26< shadowmaster> Espreon?
20100803 02:56:27< shadowmaster> argh, KMS blinking again
20100803 02:56:39< Espreon> shadowmaster: Well, precisely, "twilight" refers to the light you see when the Sun has fully set or before it starts rising, but, we have times for dusk, dawn, and twilight.
20100803 02:56:46< shadowmaster> brb, I'll update mesa.
20100803 02:56:51< fendrin> I thought it would be like "Zwielicht" a german word that refers more to a illumination level than to a sun position.
20100803 02:57:06< shadowmaster> Espreon: ahhhh.
20100803 02:57:54< Espreon> fendrin: No, they're equivalent, but when technically speaking... yeahz...
20100803 02:58:02< fendrin> shadowmaster: Note that the time schedule is in sync with the default one. The green sun is acting like it was the same thing, as in fact it is.
20100803 02:58:03< Espreon> Scientists have to ruin everything.™
20100803 03:00:21< Espreon> fendrin: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twilight ... Blargh.
20100803 03:00:57< shadowmaster> Espreon: hey, you offend me. I was pursuing a career on physics
20100803 03:01:12< Espreon> shadowmaster: Thou art a monster!
20100803 03:01:58< Espreon> But seriously, you suck at teh maths, yet you wish to pursue a physics career?
20100803 03:02:03< fendrin> Espreon: Ah, I see.
20100803 03:02:17< shadowmaster> Espreon: the ey word here is "was"
20100803 03:02:21< shadowmaster> *key
20100803 03:02:33< Espreon> Ah, silly me.
20100803 03:02:35< fendrin> Espreon: Let's see if we can find a better word for that time of day.
20100803 03:03:10< Espreon> fendrin: Let's just use "gloaming" if you wish to be so damn precise.
20100803 03:03:11< shadowmaster> I predict that IftU will need a complete remake to get balanced according to this.
20100803 03:03:20< shadowmaster> sigh.
20100803 03:03:23< Espreon> shadowmaster: OK, so, what do you wanna do now?
20100803 03:03:38< shadowmaster> Espreon: uh?
20100803 03:03:48< Espreon> For a career.
20100803 03:04:02< shadowmaster> nothing of your concern.
20100803 03:04:15< Espreon> All right.
20100803 03:05:53< Espreon> shadowmaster: Well, I guess that it's a good thing that TSL is still in early development.
20100803 03:06:34< shadowmaster> no comment.
20100803 03:06:34< fendrin> Espreon: I don't want to be very precise. I am fine with a poetic term that describes the time when only the red sun is around and everything is quite twilightish.
20100803 03:07:04< fendrin> shadowmaster: Is TSL featuring quenoth elves?
20100803 03:07:16< shadowmaster> no
20100803 03:07:18< shadowmaster> probably
20100803 03:08:32< Espreon> fendrin: No, but it takes place after IftU, so... it uses the schedule...
20100803 03:09:14< Espreon> fendrin: Oh... hmmm... just go with esr's suggestion, I guess.
20100803 03:09:21< fendrin> Espreon: Well, I will leave the old gameplay around, probably forever. So six difficult levels 3 of them featuring the new schedule, alignment and units.
20100803 03:09:35< shadowmaster> ?????????
20100803 03:09:52< shadowmaster> what the hell are you talking about?
20100803 03:10:00< Espreon> fendrin: If you don't recall, 'twas "redlight"... I think.
20100803 03:10:05< Espreon> Yeah...
20100803 03:10:32< fendrin> Espreon: Redlight sounds like prostitution. I was rather going for "rudlight".
20100803 03:10:37< shadowmaster> you are scaring me. I sense the presence of Maintenance Hell approaching.
20100803 03:11:56< fendrin> shadowmaster: Well, noy told me to make the new alignment optional. And since the new time schedule doesn't make sense without the alignment and the units are pretty much designed for it as well I have no choice.
20100803 03:12:25< shadowmaster> okay, for one thing, there are only thee alignments in Wesnoth, which are the core alignments
20100803 03:12:48< shadowmaster> anything else is ridiculously unKISS and would derail the essence of Wesnoth gameplay
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20100803 03:13:34< fendrin> shadowmaster: I don't think so.
20100803 03:13:44< shadowmaster> but I do!
20100803 03:13:51< shadowmaster> if you need extra alignments, you are doing it wrong.
20100803 03:14:13< fendrin> shadowmaster: Sounds like a sentence out of the bible.
20100803 03:14:43< shadowmaster> the least we need right now is extra gameplay complexity.
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20100803 03:14:58< shadowmaster> I liked UtBS because despite the different ToD schedule, it was still Wesnothy enough
20100803 03:15:00< Espreon> fendrin: Fine, go with that.
20100803 03:15:19< fendrin> I am aiming for reduced gameplay complexity.
20100803 03:15:29< fendrin> We have less days of time.
20100803 03:15:39< shadowmaster> it was very easy to learn how to use the new units under the new schedule
20100803 03:15:41< fendrin> We have a insync time schedule.
20100803 03:15:54< fendrin> The new alignment is much easier to handle than the old one.
20100803 03:16:05< fendrin> It has simpler rules.
20100803 03:16:15< shadowmaster> I can tolerate the ToD changes, but more alignments than the core three is stupid.
20100803 03:16:35< shadowmaster> particularly because it'll cause problems with other core units outside of UtBS'
20100803 03:16:44< fendrin> The positions of the sun and so the illumination can be predicted easily.
20100803 03:17:06< fendrin> shadowmaster: How would you model a faction that is good at the twilight times with the current system?
20100803 03:17:30< shadowmaster> why shouldn't the twilight times be treated like dusk/dawn?
20100803 03:17:47< fendrin> zookeeper even proposed to introduce wml that can define costum alignments.
20100803 03:18:36< fendrin> shadowmaster: I don't see how I can define the quenoth elves being good at dusk/dawn could work with the current system.
20100803 03:18:53< shadowmaster> neutral?
20100803 03:19:19< shadowmaster> rebalance them to be neutral? or just forget about that crap and keep them lawful
20100803 03:20:16< Espreon> Either neutral or lawful! YAYZ!
20100803 03:20:45< shadowmaster> I'm afraid I won't be able to work on more post-Fall content if this crap makes it to mainline, sorry.
20100803 03:20:55< shadowmaster> sure, you aren't losing anything. I'm the one losing here.
20100803 03:20:58< shadowmaster> whatever.
20100803 03:21:02< fendrin> shadowmaster: But neutral is not what I am aiming for.
20100803 03:21:48< Espreon> Does it matter?
20100803 03:23:49< fendrin> shadowmaster: Why are you calling my work crap. I don't get why it is crappier than the current not working time schedule. 
20100803 03:24:54< shadowmaster> no, your work isn't crap.
20100803 03:25:03< shadowmaster> the basic intention is. You are overdoing it.
20100803 03:25:38< fendrin> shadowmaster: Why am I overdoing it when I in fact want to simplify things a lot.
20100803 03:25:41< fendrin> ?
20100803 03:26:15< fendrin> Why is reducing complexity a variation of overdoing?
20100803 03:26:34< shadowmaster> all I have read sounds like introducing more complexity rather than reducing it.
20100803 03:26:49< fendrin> I will repeat it.
20100803 03:26:51< shadowmaster> what is wrong with the 1.8 UtBS gameplay?
20100803 03:27:11< fendrin> The faction sucks.
20100803 03:27:19< fendrin> Fighter is obsolete.
20100803 03:27:33< shadowmaster> what a big problem. Obsolete in what regard?
20100803 03:27:39< fendrin> Shamane is oblsolete beside being a healer.
20100803 03:27:40< shadowmaster> and why should that affect every other unit in the world?
20100803 03:27:50< Espreon> Yeah!
20100803 03:30:36< fendrin> shadowmaster: I think you can easily do without the alignment for iftu and others if you don't use quenoth elves.
20100803 03:31:13< shadowmaster> that doesn't answer my question.
20100803 03:31:30< fendrin> Which one?
20100803 03:31:45< shadowmaster> 21:27:19 <fendrin> Fighter is obsolete.
20100803 03:31:45< shadowmaster> 21:27:33 <shadowmaster> what a big problem. Obsolete in what regard?
20100803 03:31:50< shadowmaster> 21:27:39 <shadowmaster> and why should that affect every other unit in the world?
20100803 03:32:13< fendrin> The Hunter is better in nearly every situation. There is no point in having fighters in utbs.
20100803 03:32:36< shadowmaster> that's not right
20100803 03:33:00< shadowmaster> as far as I remember from *playing* UtBS, hunters tended to be weaker than ifhgter, so they wouldn't survive most melee attack-using enemies
20100803 03:33:11< shadowmaster> *fighters
20100803 03:33:46< Blarumyrran> Hunters can't upgrade to leadership
20100803 03:38:45< fendrin> Blarumyrran: Yeah, that is true. I would like to drop leadership from the faction.
20100803 03:39:14< shadowmaster> why?
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20100803 03:41:41< fendrin> shadowmaster: I consider it doesn't fit the elves anymore.
20100803 03:42:02< shadowmaster> *you* consider that.
20100803 03:42:09< shadowmaster> how many other people consider that to be true?
20100803 03:42:28< fendrin> shadowmaster: Well, no idea. Didn't make a poll.
20100803 03:42:35< shadowmaster> there are strong hints of leadership being important for their survival in the campaign's dialogue
20100803 03:42:57< shadowmaster> are you just planning to run a steamroller on the whole thing and remake UtBS with your own ideas?
20100803 03:43:24 * Espreon wouldn't approve of that
20100803 03:43:28< Valkier> Fighters? Weak? What?
20100803 03:43:39< Valkier> They're one of the best units to use in a MP game.
20100803 03:43:48< shadowmaster> Valkier: not the mainline elves.
20100803 03:44:00< Valkier> ahh
20100803 03:44:04< shadowmaster> we are talking about UtBS' desert elves here
20100803 03:44:11< Valkier> I see, I see. My mistake.
20100803 03:45:33< fendrin> shadowmaster: No, I won't change much on the storyline.
20100803 03:45:53< shadowmaster> then you can't remove leadership or fighters.
20100803 03:46:47< shadowmaster> and no, a poll wouldn't help because a) users are useless for decision-making; and b) only us three really care about UtBS.
20100803 03:48:56< fendrin> shadowmaster: The story is based on fighters and leadership? I didn't notice. 
20100803 03:49:18< shadowmaster> wow, sarcasm.
20100803 03:50:51< shadowmaster> look, I won't continue wasting my time with this since you are clearly stuck with your ambitious and ground-breaking plans and nobody will be able to convince you that there are things that don't need to be fixed, particularly when they aren't broken in the first place.
20100803 03:51:21< shadowmaster> so do whatever you want Just don't expect me to support your plans.
20100803 03:52:27< fendrin> shadowmaster: It was jetrel who told me he consider the faction broken and badly designed. Not my idea in the first place.
20100803 03:52:35< shadowmaster> fuck Jetrel.
20100803 03:52:41< SpoOkyMagician_> :l
20100803 03:52:45< shadowmaster> I don't fucking care about his opinion on UtBS.
20100803 03:53:07< shadowmaster> I know because I've talked with him before.
20100803 03:53:43< shadowmaster> but I'm not going to allow his personal bias against quartex's work to influence *my* opinions and point of view on UtBS
20100803 03:54:42< shadowmaster> and I know from our work on frogatto that he tends to lean to the unKISS side of gameplay design.
20100803 03:55:45< fendrin> Oh sounds like he is really on the bad side of the might.
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20100803 03:58:53< SpoOkyMagician_> shadowmaster: mind if I ask you a question.
20100803 03:58:58< SpoOkyMagician_> ? *
20100803 03:59:18< shadowmaster> never ask to ask, just ask :)
20100803 04:00:00< SpoOkyMagician_> okay i just wanted to know if any of these errors i got from a "gravity code" i wrote could be dangerous/leak memory/etc. (http://pastebin.com/BWk8Nhss)
20100803 04:00:10< SpoOkyMagician_> the ai attacks errrors
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20100803 04:00:25< SpoOkyMagician_> i just want to be sure
20100803 04:01:29< shadowmaster> you'd better ask Crab_. He knows the AI code since he¿s wrote most of it in 1.7.x.
20100803 04:01:33< shadowmaster> * he's
20100803 04:01:38< SpoOkyMagician_> i see
20100803 04:01:51< SpoOkyMagician_> i'll have to wait then. hes afk
20100803 04:01:55< Golbeeze> Hi. I feel redundant posting this here, as I can see many people are in both chats, but just in case no one is looking at the other channel....Can anyone here help me with a mac issue? I am trying to locate the add-on files, but I am not familiar with the mac os.
20100803 04:02:14< shadowmaster> crimson_penguin can help.
20100803 04:02:33< Golbeeze> :)
20100803 04:02:47< crimson_penguin> They're in Library/Application Support/Wesnoth_1.8/ in your home folder
20100803 04:03:22< Golbeeze> thanks
20100803 04:04:41< Golbeeze> found it! hurray
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20100803 04:06:38< Valkier> Goldbreeze: What kind of mac?
20100803 04:08:23< Golbeeze> uhhhhh Mac OS  (I assume, I'm helping my friend out)
20100803 04:08:37< Golbeeze> we're trying to figure out what addon is causing him slow-down
20100803 04:08:42< Valkier> Oh. I meant macbook, iMac, etc.
20100803 04:08:45< Golbeeze> we moved them out and it was instantly faster
20100803 04:08:48< Golbeeze> ah, i'll ask
20100803 04:09:23< Valkier> Just curious since I am looking in to getting one soon.
20100803 04:09:34< Golbeeze> macbook
20100803 04:10:05< Valkier> ahh
20100803 04:10:13< Valkier> Work all right for him? Any trouble outside of Wesnoth?
20100803 04:10:20< Valkier> Heating, sound, etc?
20100803 04:12:23< Golbeeze> no problems
20100803 04:12:31< Golbeeze> works well
20100803 04:15:10< Valkier> How long has he had it?
20100803 04:17:16-!- Ivanovic_ [~ivanovic@dtmd-4db2ef2d.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100803 04:17:30< Golbeeze> a year
20100803 04:20:03< Valkier> Well, can't be worse than my HP.
20100803 04:20:06< Valkier> Thanks. ^_^
20100803 04:20:14< Golbeeze> yw
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20100803 04:21:14-!- Ivanovic_ is now known as Ivanovic
20100803 04:28:35< shadowmaster> fendrin: also note that the only reason I haven't done anything for UtBS is because I don't have infinite amounts of spare time.
20100803 04:29:01< shadowmaster> I am the forum admin, I have projects of my own, and I can't spend my energy on Wesnoth anymore.
20100803 04:30:26< fendrin> shadowmaster: I thought so.
20100803 04:30:46< shadowmaster> and if you think being forum admin doesn't entail any effort of my own, then damn you.
20100803 04:30:59< shadowmaster> *a responsible forum admin.
20100803 04:31:13< shadowmaster> I'm filling the gap left by Turuk's absence after all.
20100803 04:31:14< fendrin> shadowmaster: What the hell are you talking about?
20100803 04:31:47< shadowmaster> you seem to suggest I should've worked on UtBS
20100803 04:31:54< fendrin> Did I say anything about you not doing enough for utbs? I see you bugfixing all the time.
20100803 04:32:09< shadowmaster> no, I'm not bugfixing.
20100803 04:32:15< fendrin> No, I think you should have taken over the maintainance as main maintainer long ago.
20100803 04:32:17< shadowmaster> and what you are going to do isn't exactly bugfixing.
20100803 04:32:26< fendrin> I did it because no one was willing to do so.
20100803 04:32:47< fendrin> And now that I am in charge everyone wants to dictate my work. 
20100803 04:32:47< shadowmaster> and it wasn't horribly necessary either.
20100803 04:33:10< shadowmaster> it's not unusual for me to pay attention at some point and go fixing bugs in all mainline campaigns as I spot them when reaviewing the WML
20100803 04:33:12< Espreon> fendrin: *Thy* work‽
20100803 04:33:23< Espreon> You mean *our* work!
20100803 04:34:03< shadowmaster> you seem to mistake campaign maintenance with the power to do whatever you want in Wesnoth, including adding a Hello Kitty faction or so (analogy)
20100803 04:34:52< shadowmaster> I think we all have had overly ridiculous idea during our time as developers, but we are responsible and don't implement them without using our self-criticizing skills and keeping our design philosophy in mind
20100803 04:35:08< Espreon> Yeah, let's also add Cthulu and Yog-Sothoth! Right shadowmaster‽
20100803 04:35:09< shadowmaster> *self-criticism
20100803 04:35:18< Espreon> *Cthulhu
20100803 04:35:50< fendrin> shadowmaster: My ideas aren't ridiculous.
20100803 04:35:59< shadowmaster> with the most important principle being: "don't fix what isn't broken"
20100803 04:36:18< shadowmaster> it isn't ridiculous to change such an essential gameplay aspect as alignments?
20100803 04:36:33< fendrin> No it isn't.
20100803 04:36:38< shadowmaster> and please don't repeat the "only desert elves nonsense" because they aren't going to fight between themselves, and will interact with other units.
20100803 04:37:36< shadowmaster> *between themselves only
20100803 04:38:06< fendrin> shadowmaster: So, do you want to take over utbs?
20100803 04:39:02< shadowmaster> what part of "I don't have infinite amounts of spare time" did you not understand?
20100803 04:39:28< fendrin> shadowmaster: Well, then find another maintainer replacing me.
20100803 04:39:29< shadowmaster> I'm going back to my studies tomorrow even
20100803 04:40:01< shadowmaster> I only want you to reconsider what you are doing.
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20100803 04:40:17< Espreon> fendrin: I shall take it over!
20100803 04:40:18< shadowmaster> the idea of reimagining the desert elves giving them an unique identity is cool.
20100803 04:40:30< fendrin> Espreon: That is fine with me.
20100803 04:40:37< shadowmaster> but you are heading in the wrong direction while trying to accomplish that.
20100803 04:41:05< fendrin> shadowmaster: Which direction do you consider better?
20100803 04:41:57< fendrin> shadowmaster: What I especially dislike is that artists are starting to redo the artwork.
20100803 04:42:05< shadowmaster> keeping the basic gameplay as is, without hampering the process of redesigning the faction's units, and without changing such essential aspects of them as their abilities, nature and gameplay mechanics.
20100803 04:42:17< shadowmaster> and yes, artists are starting to redo the artwork, I know.
20100803 04:42:19-!- Gambit [~quassel@pa-67-234-127-219.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.]
20100803 04:43:01< shadowmaster> otherwise I can see becoming yet another failed attempt akin to cycholka's
20100803 04:43:17< fendrin> shadowmaster: I don't see the point of slightly modified woodland elves in a desert.
20100803 04:43:23< shadowmaster> (the fact that he left after restoring the website didn't help)
20100803 04:43:48< shadowmaster> fendrin: I agree with that, mostly.
20100803 04:44:30< fendrin> So what is wrong?
20100803 04:44:47< Espreon> fendrin: All was going well tell you decided to implement silly ideas that bepiss our principles.
20100803 04:44:49< fendrin> We have the mystics which are similar to the shaman line. You can recognize them well.
20100803 04:45:02< shadowmaster> alignment, complicated ToD-dependant abilities, etc.
20100803 04:45:06< shadowmaster> I have heard about the mystic line and I like the concept
20100803 04:45:07< fendrin> We have the hunter which is already present but slightly modified.
20100803 04:45:16< fendrin> The guard is a modification of the fighter.
20100803 04:45:28< fendrin> Only the scout is a real new unit.
20100803 04:45:29< shadowmaster> they don't need guards.
20100803 04:45:48< fendrin> shadowmaster: Then propose a better name.
20100803 04:45:59< fendrin> shadowmaster: It is not the name that will be a big problem.
20100803 04:46:17< fendrin> shadowmaster: The alignment is an experiment, it can be redone if it doesn't work out well.
20100803 04:46:28< shadowmaster> they are not a completely sedentary civilization, having settled around that oasis fairly recently.
20100803 04:46:29< Espreon> But we don't wanna undo huge changes!
20100803 04:46:40< Espreon> Remember suokko!
20100803 04:46:50< shadowmaster> they are more likely to depend on units capable of running across the sands and attacking enemies.
20100803 04:46:59< fendrin> Espreon: It is only a few lines of code. It won't be a big problem.
20100803 04:47:07< shadowmaster> with ambushing hunters as support
20100803 04:47:25< fendrin> shadowmaster: Right, we have ambushing hunters now
20100803 04:47:26< shadowmaster> I think I already mentioned before that code-wise I'd like this series to be as close to stable as possible
20100803 04:47:35< fendrin> shadowmaster: The old faction didn't feature them.
20100803 04:47:52< shadowmaster> the old faction had hunters with a quite good defense ratio on sand terrains
20100803 04:48:12< fendrin> That won't change.
20100803 04:48:37< shadowmaster> also, since they are rather strugglingto survive, they need leaders (with leadership) capable of leading their kin in the battlefield.
20100803 04:48:43< fendrin> shadowmaster: Are you sure you did take enough time to study my work?
20100803 04:48:56< shadowmaster> you have told me enough about your intentions.
20100803 04:49:01< fendrin> shadowmaster: Okay, you convinced me. There will be leaders.
20100803 04:51:50< shadowmaster> but we don't need new complicated abilities based on odd ToD combinations. Nightstalk in mainline is a borderline exception (which I still haven't completely dominated, gameplay-wise) and applies to incorporeal units of the Shadow line
20100803 04:51:58< fendrin> shadowmaster: In fact there is already a line that has it. I just played with the thought of dropping it.
20100803 04:52:29< shadowmaster> we don't need new alignments either, since Wesnoth is built upon the lawful-neutral-chaotic system
20100803 04:52:43< shadowmaster> which makes sense because of its inherent simplicity
20100803 04:52:44< fendrin> shadowmaster: I disagree there very much.
20100803 04:52:50< shadowmaster> chaotic = affinity to darkness
20100803 04:52:53< shadowmaster> lawful = affinity to light
20100803 04:53:12< shadowmaster> neutral = affinity to neither, tend to handle well in any light condition
20100803 04:53:30< fendrin> Yeah, I think we all got how it works.
20100803 04:54:07< shadowmaster> this is also extremly simple in regards to ToD schedules since every single time only has a lawful bonus, from which this is calculated for chaotic units as well
20100803 04:54:31< shadowmaster> as a consequence, it's not horribly difficult to balance scenarios with a fixed schedule
20100803 04:54:38< fendrin> shadowmaster: Trust me, the c++ coding was simple.
20100803 04:54:55< shadowmaster> I'm not talking about the C++.
20100803 04:55:12< fendrin> I have worked on the new schedule a long time.
20100803 04:55:21< fendrin> And it is not proven to be non working.
20100803 04:55:38< shadowmaster> this is not about working or not working, this is about coherence.
20100803 04:55:40< fendrin> And I really don't care much about KISS.
20100803 04:56:12< Espreon> Oh, there you go!
20100803 04:56:14< shadowmaster> then you can go look for another project.
20100803 04:56:27< Espreon> He just admitted it to the entire world!
20100803 04:56:45< fendrin> shadowmaster: :-)
20100803 04:56:47< shadowmaster> If we didn't care about KISS, a countless amount of features would already be implemented without regards to usability and maintainability
20100803 04:57:10< fendrin> That KISS thing is a strange religion.
20100803 04:57:12< shadowmaster> and Wesnoth wouldn't be nearly as popular as it is amongst content designers and users alike
20100803 04:57:18< fendrin> I never cared much about religion.
20100803 04:57:22< shadowmaster> so, you are going to go against Dave?
20100803 04:57:26< Espreon> fendrin: Who the hell cares?
20100803 04:57:43< shadowmaster> and ignore the basic design philosophy to which Wesnoth adherees, as a whole?
20100803 04:57:48< Espreon> This project is centered around KISS and all of those other principles.
20100803 04:58:15< fendrin> shadowmaster: zookeeper proposed a whole wml syntax for custom alignments. Do you feel up to fire him as well? 
20100803 04:58:20< Espreon> Not a huge blob of features!
20100803 04:58:30< Espreon> fendrin: ... and?
20100803 04:58:31< shadowmaster> this is not about seeking targets.
20100803 04:58:52< shadowmaster> and don't pull zookeeper into the matter since you just want WML coders to design syntax for you.
20100803 04:59:14< Espreon> Yeah, how dare you.
20100803 04:59:16< fendrin> shadowmaster: Then don't tell me to leave bacause I don't share your opinion. There are much opinions out there. 
20100803 04:59:28< Espreon> Sigh...
20100803 04:59:32< shadowmaster> I'm not telling you to leave because you don't share *my* oopinion
20100803 05:00:30< shadowmaster> you don't see me telling Espreon to leave because he doesn't share my opinion.
20100803 05:00:38< fendrin> I don't belong into the KISS at all cost group. And I am not alone with that. So don't try to scare me with threaten to throw me out of the project.
20100803 05:00:41< shadowmaster> replace Espreon with Ivanovic, Jetrel, eleazar if you will.
20100803 05:01:11< shadowmaster> nobody is trying to scare you.
20100803 05:01:18< fendrin> shadowmaster: So it is something personal?
20100803 05:01:22< shadowmaster> and again, this is not about seeking targets.
20100803 05:01:44< shadowmaster> no, it isn't, that's been mmy point for the last two pages of scrollback! :(
20100803 05:01:58< Espreon> fendrin: We're just letting thee know that thou art crushing the work, hopes, and dreams of many people.
20100803 05:02:26< fendrin> shadowmaster: You told me I should leave because I don't value kiss that much.
20100803 05:02:47< Espreon> It's one of the project's principles!
20100803 05:02:54< shadowmaster> I said "can", not "should" :)
20100803 05:02:56< Espreon> ... one of the creator's principles.
20100803 05:03:27< shadowmaster> that's just a suggestion, not a command.
20100803 05:03:37< fendrin> Espreon: But it is an excuse to reject everything. If you don't like an idea make up anything that could be called not being KISS. 
20100803 05:04:02< fendrin> Espreon: My understanding of KISS does cover the new alignment. 
20100803 05:04:14< Espreon> Sigh...
20100803 05:04:15< shadowmaster> you can go and implement every one of the FPIs then if you consider it to be just an "excuse"
20100803 05:04:16< fendrin> Espreon: Why is your understanding of KISS superiour?
20100803 05:04:26< shadowmaster> wait, you are already doing that :(
20100803 05:04:34< fendrin> shadowmaster: Right.
20100803 05:04:37< shadowmaster> probably, I don't know that fork's progress.
20100803 05:05:02< Espreon> fendrin: Yeah, take thine awesome ideas and take them to thy fork!
20100803 05:05:14< Espreon> *put them
20100803 05:05:17< Espreon> *in
20100803 05:05:28< fendrin> Espreon: I will do so if you take over maintainance of utbs.
20100803 05:05:36< shadowmaster> and you consider me to be threatening you when I am the one who granted you a separate subforum in the same db in the first place ;)
20100803 05:06:06< Espreon> fendrin: .... and I shall do so joyfully!
20100803 05:06:15< shadowmaster> (database which doesn't receive practical love from anyone but me)
20100803 05:08:19< fendrin> shadowmaster: I am still grateful that you offered the subforum.
20100803 05:09:00< fendrin> Espreon: Then please update the _main.cfg and do everything else that must be done when taking over.
20100803 05:09:36< Espreon> fendrin: Oh? You mean remove you from the credits? Are you sure that you haven't done real maintenance work for it?
20100803 05:09:49< shadowmaster> in any case, before considering Jetrel's opinion on UtBS, consider that he's the same person who says that "quartex was a retard"
20100803 05:10:06< shadowmaster> Espreon: cycholka's not been removed from the credits for that.
20100803 05:10:17< fendrin> fendrin: make sure that no one bothers me with utbs anymore. I don't need to stay in the credits for it.
20100803 05:10:45< fendrin> Espreon: ^
20100803 05:10:57< Espreon> Very well.
20100803 05:11:05< Espreon> shadowmaster: Oh, shall I remove him as well.
20100803 05:11:06< Espreon> *?
20100803 05:11:16< Espreon> Wait, no.
20100803 05:11:22< shadowmaster> let's remove Mythological from HttT's credits as well!
20100803 05:11:22< shadowmaster> I mean, what the hell?
20100803 05:11:23< Espreon> AAAAH!
20100803 05:11:49< shadowmaster> ohhh, also remove me from the Spanish translation credits because I'm no longer a translator!
20100803 05:11:58< shadowmaster> also remove Dave because he isn't active anymore ;)
20100803 05:12:01< Espreon> shadowmaster: No, no...
20100803 05:12:06< Espreon> I was just being silly.
20100803 05:12:09< shadowmaster> then what?
20100803 05:14:57< noy> fendrin: have you wondered why you're meeting so much resistance from some core developers?
20100803 05:14:59< noy> on your utbs plans?
20100803 05:15:28< fendrin> noy: No, I expected that.
20100803 05:16:26< noy> well then I think you might have the wrong attitude about this altogether
20100803 05:16:35< fendrin> noy: I was just waiting to give up the burden to maintain that campaign. 
20100803 05:16:54< fendrin> noy: No I can work to it in more peace as an addon.
20100803 05:17:24< noy> because no other campaign remake has received so much criticism
20100803 05:17:26< fendrin> noy: I just thought that I can slip through this time.
20100803 05:17:33< noy> Uh, no.
20100803 05:17:43< noy> Its a mainline campaign
20100803 05:17:58< noy> its not supposed to be "remade"
20100803 05:18:43< fendrin> noy: Fine, that is why I am the wrong maintainer. I guess Espreon will fit much better in "the core developers" needs.
20100803 05:19:02< noy> ... 
20100803 05:21:02< noy> fendrin: I don't think your alignment idea was bad
20100803 05:21:23< noy> I think this + all the other things was a good idea
20100803 05:22:23< fendrin> noy: well, that is the point. There are enough core developers so that everyone just wants to keep a single bit. In the sum not a single change is possible anymore.
20100803 05:22:41< noy> thats not true at all. 
20100803 05:23:02< noy> I think you've just picked the wrong place to do it.
20100803 05:23:16< fendrin> noy: mainline?
20100803 05:23:25< noy> mainline campaign
20100803 05:23:38< fendrin> noy: That is exactly why I am fine with Espreon taking over. 
20100803 05:24:11< fendrin> noy: It is just that I will never get enough artist attention to finish the project outside of mainline.
20100803 05:24:30< noy> Thats not true
20100803 05:24:43< shadowmaster> kitty helped me with a user-made add-on!
20100803 05:24:51< noy> you just need to have a great idea and the ambition to get things done
20100803 05:25:15< noy> using an established campaign as a vehicle for your ideas is just the wrong way of doing it
20100803 05:25:31< fendrin> shadowmaster, noy: You don't honestly think that kitty and zerovirus will do the art for utbs and my version? 
20100803 05:25:56< shadowmaster> Zerovirus is crazy.
20100803 05:26:03< shadowmaster> He'll do anything for fun.
20100803 05:26:09< Espreon> Indeed.
20100803 05:26:32< fendrin> He already told me that his time is spare and that the faction shouldn't get that huge.
20100803 05:26:59< shadowmaster> I could eventually give a hand if my time allowed, since I really need to go back to spriting at some point.
20100803 05:27:20< shadowmaster> s/need/want/
20100803 05:27:30< fendrin> utbs has always been a special campaign. I don't get what is wrong with a single campaign out of 20 that does have slightly modified gameplay will spoil the show.
20100803 05:27:58< fendrin> And I did want to enhance the gameplay and make things simpler!
20100803 05:28:14< fendrin> At least that is true for the time of day schedule.
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20100803 05:28:29< fendrin> Since it is less broken than what we have now in utbs.
20100803 05:29:33< Espreon> "Slightly"?
20100803 05:29:38< shadowmaster> I agree that the current ToD doesn't make much sense.
20100803 05:29:38 * Espreon laughs
20100803 05:30:04< shadowmaster> I have had multiple headaches trying to figure out the orbits with my poor astronomy knowledge.
20100803 05:30:47< fendrin> shadowmaster: Did you find a working solution?
20100803 05:30:56< shadowmaster> no
20100803 05:31:38< fendrin> shadowmaster: please notice that mine is working fine and that it is interesting. I think it can make an interesting gameplay and a nice story background.
20100803 05:31:40< shadowmaster> at least not any solution involving a three-dimensional space
20100803 05:31:59< shadowmaster> fendrin: I don't deny that.
20100803 05:33:03< fendrin> shadowmaster: So isn't that a clear case of fix what is broken?
20100803 05:33:06< shadowmaster> but these twilight/sunshift schedules feel more confusing than helpful to me, especially when combined with schedule-dependent abilities/weapon specials/alignments
20100803 05:33:31< fendrin> It is very simple gameplay wise.
20100803 05:33:46< fendrin> You have basically three days.
20100803 05:33:49< shadowmaster> since they sound like they should be neutral ToDs like Dawn and Dusk
20100803 05:33:52< fendrin> A first normal one.
20100803 05:33:55< shadowmaster> (i.e. no particular alignment is at advantage)
20100803 05:34:04< fendrin> One that is almost all in twilight.
20100803 05:34:12< fendrin> A second almost normal one.
20100803 05:34:16< fendrin> And then the night.
20100803 05:34:30< fendrin> The player does only get to know that he is better in twilight.
20100803 05:34:33< SpoOkyMagician> meh crab still isn't back yet? :\
20100803 05:34:40< Espreon> SpoOkyMagician: Well, of course.
20100803 05:34:48< Espreon> He's in Ukraine... I think.
20100803 05:34:58< SpoOkyMagician> what time is it there?
20100803 05:35:22< fendrin> I know that some of the scenarios need to be rebalanced but that is the case as well. 
20100803 05:35:27< fendrin> We get new units. 
20100803 05:35:31< Espreon> SpoOkyMagician: http://wwp.greenwichmeantime.com/time-zone/europe/ukraine/
20100803 05:35:50< SpoOkyMagician> meh
20100803 05:35:55< SpoOkyMagician> i'll just PM him
20100803 05:35:57< fendrin> At least you will not convince Espreon to not introduce the units from Iftu.
20100803 05:36:04< fendrin> Chaos faction.
20100803 05:36:16< shadowmaster> er.
20100803 05:36:29< shadowmaster> I don't want the whole Chaos faction into UtBS, personally.
20100803 05:36:39< shadowmaster> otherwise that'll break the suspense involved in IftU.
20100803 05:37:37< fendrin> shadowmaster: Well, that is now an Espreon thing.
20100803 05:38:05 * shadowmaster slaps Espreon with a fish.
20100803 05:38:14< Espreon> shadowmaster: The whole thing doesn't have to be in there.
20100803 05:38:22< shadowmaster> great.
20100803 05:38:32< fendrin> shadowmaster: The player can count on the twilight day being 4 turns long. He knows that every other faction will be at +0 at this time.
20100803 05:38:35< Espreon> Hey, not much of my stuff is set in stone.
20100803 05:38:38< Espreon> shadowmaster: ^
20100803 05:38:52< shadowmaster> fendrin: that gives the player too much advantage.
20100803 05:39:08< shadowmaster> so, right, let's make UtBS a cakewalk
20100803 05:39:20< shadowmaster> bye Character Development and thrilling scenarios
20100803 05:40:01< shadowmaster> although the old schedule appears to lean on the opposite end of the pole, it turns out to be good for the storytelling atmosphere
20100803 05:40:42< fendrin> you know that such things can easily be balanced out.
20100803 05:41:03< fendrin> The liminal advantage doesn't need to be that big.
20100803 05:41:06< fendrin> for example.
20100803 05:41:35< shadowmaster> but everybody else is still under the neutral effect for 4 consecutive turns?
20100803 05:41:46< fendrin> Right.
20100803 05:42:20< shadowmaster> :(
20100803 05:43:15< fendrin> We have a long night currently that is also freezing the malus/bonus that long.
20100803 05:43:55< fendrin> It is in fact a time of 6 slots being hostile or neutral for lawfull factions.
20100803 05:44:40< shadowmaster> so it's rather balanced.
20100803 05:44:44< shadowmaster> at the moment, that is
20100803 05:46:20< fendrin> shadowmaster: If you use the old alignments only that is true.
20100803 05:47:27< shadowmaster> but we want to use the old alignments!
20100803 05:47:32< Espreon> Indeed!
20100803 05:47:35< shadowmaster> don't we? :(
20100803 05:48:22< Espreon> Duh, of course we do.
20100803 05:51:17< fendrin> Well, do what you want I am out now.
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20100803 05:59:23< Sapient> FYI, I think someone is hacking my freenode credentials. You may suspect that I am not myself until this is resolved...
20100803 06:01:32< noy> really?
20100803 06:01:39< Espreon> Sapient: Oh, why do you think that?
20100803 06:01:41< Sapient> ok, the danger has passed.
20100803 06:01:46< Sapient> I am myself
20100803 06:01:56< noy> I don't believe you
20100803 06:02:11 * Sapient grins.
20100803 06:03:11< Sapient> I just mistyped NickServ so I had to change the password before I was usurped
20100803 06:03:42< Sapient> I still need to set up my triggers on chatzilla
20100803 06:08:59< Espreon> Ah, I see.
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20100803 06:33:41< CIA-87> espreon * r45134 /trunk/ (11 files in 4 dirs): Reverted revisions 45103 and 45130.
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20100803 06:43:49< fendrin> Espreon: hey!
20100803 06:44:13< fendrin> Espreon: What did r45134 revert?
20100803 06:44:47< Espreon> fendrin: I thought that we were abandoning the liminal stuff. After all, you're no longer involved.
20100803 06:45:08< fendrin> Espreon: Not the c++ code. Put it back it in. Quick.
20100803 06:45:34< Espreon> Sigh, fine.
20100803 06:45:38< Espreon> But, why?
20100803 06:46:26< fendrin> Espreon: Because it is a good idea. At least noy things so. It is just you that is narrow minded.
20100803 06:49:13< Espreon> fendrin: But, it's not going to be used.
20100803 06:49:38< fendrin> Espreon: Put it back in and never touch my c++ code again.
20100803 06:50:25< Espreon> Whatever.
20100803 06:50:47< shadowm_laptop> Espreon: it might be used by some overly complicated add-on.
20100803 06:50:58< shadowm_laptop> so it shouldn't be reverted since it already exists.
20100803 06:51:04< Espreon> Hmmmm, fine.
20100803 06:51:13< shadowm_laptop> whether it should exist in the first place is a different matter :P
20100803 06:51:16< Espreon> But, fendrin has his fork....
20100803 06:51:26< Espreon> Ah shit, I reverted my pofix work.
20100803 06:51:29< Espreon> Oh well.
20100803 06:51:39< shadowm_laptop> but the fork is also a testbed for this kind of ideas.
20100803 06:51:51< fendrin> shadowm_laptop: No it shouldn't be reverted because it is a good idea. And don't tell that it is overly complicated, it isn't. 
20100803 06:51:59< shadowm_laptop> granted, this one was added to mainline, but let's see what weird stuff the likes of Gambit do with it
20100803 06:52:04< Espreon> Well, at least I had it in svn diff.
20100803 06:52:30< shadowm_laptop> fendrin: shush, I'm defending it :P
20100803 06:53:17< shadowm_laptop> also, I said "overly complicated add-on", not code
20100803 06:53:25< fendrin> shadowm_laptop: Just be quite and mind your own business.
20100803 06:53:40 * Espreon rolls his eyes
20100803 06:53:40< rusty> fendrin, Espreon: gentlemen, manners please...
20100803 06:53:50< shadowm_laptop> it's not my fault that Espreon poked me about it.
20100803 06:54:03< shadowm_laptop> hi rusty!
20100803 06:54:20< rusty> shadowm_laptop: is this where I go for an argument? :)
20100803 06:54:33 * Espreon chuckles
20100803 06:55:02 * shadowmaster is confused.
20100803 06:55:48< CIA-87> espreon * r45135 /trunk/ (11 files in 4 dirs): Reverted r45134.
20100803 06:56:11< Espreon> fendrin: Art thou happy now?
20100803 06:56:13< rusty> shadowmaster: I was referring to the less-than-civil discussion we were witnessing.  It's usually so damn friendly here....
20100803 06:56:32< Valkier> So guys. I want to re-write NR to have the main character as part dragon god.
20100803 06:56:36< Valkier> Let's do this thing.
20100803 06:56:41 * Espreon chuckles
20100803 06:56:48< shadowmaster> rusty: I'm a bit more than a witness, actually
20100803 06:56:55< shadowmaster> but let's leave it at that.
20100803 06:57:01< Espreon> Indeed.
20100803 06:57:20< rusty> shadowmaster: Oh, I'm just eating popcorn and wearing my 3D glasses....
20100803 06:57:23< fendrin> Valkier: Do think it is funny to make jokes over my serious work? Hard work.
20100803 06:57:37< Valkier> Did you write NR?
20100803 06:58:03< Valkier> Let me go ahead and answer that: No, you didn't.
20100803 06:58:07< Valkier> So quit trying to pick a fight.,
20100803 06:58:32< Espreon> Sigh, I always thought that it was *our* work... I guess not...
20100803 06:58:34 * Espreon cries
20100803 06:58:40< shadowmaster> just drop mainline from NR and be done with it
20100803 06:58:45< shadowmaster> I mean, drop NR from mainline.
20100803 06:58:58< shadowmaster> reason: "bad for players' health"
20100803 06:59:08< shadowmaster> also bad for CPU fans
20100803 06:59:57< Valkier> shadowmaster: You're so mean to me, but I love you.
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20100803 07:03:32< noy> fendrin: I don't think your changes need to go into a fork
20100803 07:03:54< noy> I don't think they should go into utbs either though
20100803 07:05:23< fendrin> noy: That is fine. So I can upload the remake to the addon server if it ever gets some art.
20100803 07:06:00< noy> Sure... but to be honest there are better things to do
20100803 07:06:43< noy> I've got the khalifate which could use a campaign
20100803 07:07:05< noy> I've got some ideas which you could use
20100803 07:07:54< fendrin> noy: I had them in mind. I designed the new quenoth elves around the faction since I just didn't want to have elves in oriental clothes being to similar to the khalifes.
20100803 07:08:57< fendrin> noy: Do you plan to add the khalifate to default?
20100803 07:09:10< noy> it will be in a default + Khalifate faction
20100803 07:09:13< noy> era
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20100803 07:13:21< fendrin> noy: That is fine. I am looking forward to see the new faction in single and multiplayer. But I am not in a search for a campaign I want to do. I just thought it was my duty as a maintainer to not waste artists time on a faction that is really bad made. And I want to salvage the huge amount of work I put into utbs already.
20100803 07:13:50< fendrin> noy: So I see no chance for coding that campaign featuring the khalifate. 
20100803 07:14:48< Valkier> Damn. I wanted to see a Khalifate campaign too. Maybe I could do portraits for a campaign people actually like then. :-(
20100803 07:16:39< shadowmaster> don't worry, maybe people will like NR better after your portraits are finished.
20100803 07:16:53< shadowmaster> and there's still a small portion of the audience composed of masochists
20100803 07:17:33< shadowmaster> We also have a trope. http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SoBadItsGood
20100803 07:17:41 * shadowmaster hides from Espreon.
20100803 07:20:26< Valkier> lol
20100803 07:21:28< shadowmaster> seriously, there's just some stuff that's so bad you can't help but want to play/watch it to have fun laughing at it.
20100803 07:21:42< shadowmaster> that might be the only reason I watched the likes of The Happening and The Core.
20100803 07:22:08< Espreon> shadowmaster: Is "My Immortal" mentioned on that page?
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20100803 07:22:56< ABCD> Espreon: I think that would be on "SoBadItsHorrible"
20100803 07:23:07< Espreon> HA! Yeah!
20100803 07:23:25< ABCD> Espreon: but yes, it is on http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/SoBadItsGood/FanFic
20100803 07:23:33< shadowmaster> yeah
20100803 07:23:37 * Espreon chuckles
20100803 07:24:22< ABCD> ...and it *isn't* on Horrible/FanFic...
20100803 07:24:36< shadowmaster> "My Immortal isn't so bad it's good, it's so horrible it's awesome"
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20100803 07:25:26< shadowmaster> I forgot to ask a certain somebody to sign my copy of the Linux 2.6.35 patch :(
20100803 07:31:15< rusty> shadowmaster: you got a patch in?
20100803 07:31:21< shadowmaster> no.
20100803 07:31:29< shadowmaster> I mean the 2.6.34-to-2.6.35 patch :P
20100803 07:33:05< ABCD> that reminds me, I should probably upgrade from 2.6.35-rc6-00019-g86c65a7
20100803 07:33:52< shadowmaster> I'm not into RC kernels due to an accident which I initially related to RC testing.
20100803 07:34:26< shadowmaster> now I'm not sure if my memory is working well, but it could be my own fault involving mounting hibernated filesystems .
20100803 07:35:44< shadowmaster> depending on how the next development cycle goes, though, I might give RC kernels a try.
20100803 07:36:04< shadowmaster> I'm really interested on the progress being done in the KMS department for the Radeons :(
20100803 07:36:28< Valkier> http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30843&start=105
20100803 07:36:33< Valkier> This made me lol so hard.
20100803 07:36:38< Valkier> The very last post.
20100803 07:36:58< shadowmaster> and depending on the reception of my Mesa bug I might start filing bugs like crazy :P
20100803 07:38:55< shadowmaster> (note: hilarity ensued during my last and only RC testing: http://shadowm.rewound.net/blog/?p=8)
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20100803 07:47:50< freim> Valkier: hehe, good one :)
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20100803 08:45:11< shadowmaster> meh, it's so sad that I won't be able to use the laptop when having breakfast at the subway station later today.
20100803 08:45:16-!- ancestral [~ancestral@mobile-166-137-142-093.mycingular.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20100803 08:45:23< shadowmaster> stupid battery.
20100803 08:45:23-!- kevg [~kevg@94.232.4.14] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
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20100803 08:49:25 * SpoOkyMagician attempts to recharge shadowmaster's battery and fails
20100803 08:49:46< SpoOkyMagician> or fix *
20100803 08:51:18< shadowmaster> I need to buy a new one one of these days.
20100803 08:51:24< shadowmaster> the tech support place is hard to reach, however. And I'm lazy.
20100803 08:51:46< shadowmaster> I don't like going to the capital in the first place, and I avoid going to locations which aren't close to subway stations.
20100803 08:52:24< shadowmaster> the whole laptop needs some maintenance before it starts crumbling to pieces anyway.
20100803 08:56:46< SpoOkyMagician> :\
20100803 08:57:28 * SpoOkyMagician programmed a simple text based chess game for fun
20100803 08:59:47 * SpoOkyMagician plays a game of chess
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20100803 09:09:52 * SpoOkyMagician needs to add a save/load function to this chess program
20100803 09:16:01< shadowmaster> meh, I forgot to get Linux 2.6.34.2. I guess I'll avoid suspending to disk for now
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20100803 10:07:03< Ivanovic> moin
20100803 10:08:16< rusty> Ivanovic: GUG!
20100803 10:09:21< timotei> morning :D
20100803 10:09:34< timotei> ah damn, entered after ivanovic :(
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20100803 10:40:40< timotei> fendrin: hi
20100803 10:40:44-!- Johannes13 [~Johannes@unaffiliated/johannes13] has joined #wesnoth-dev
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20100803 12:04:15< shadowmaster> morning.
20100803 12:04:19< shadowmaster> bye
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20100803 12:20:40< Crab_> SpoOkyMagician: hi. note - I've answered via pm.
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20100803 13:12:35< fendrin> hi timotei
20100803 13:22:15< zookeeper> ah, i'm glad i decided to read the logs from last night...
20100803 13:25:02< fendrin> zookeeper: sure?
20100803 13:25:20-!- Appleman1234 [~Appleman1@CPE-60-226-176-19.qld.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
20100803 13:25:27< zookeeper> well, i haven't finished yet, so we'll see...
20100803 13:25:45< zookeeper> but it looks like something i ought to be reading :P
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20100803 13:30:44< timotei> noy: because you have asked about number of loc in wesnoth: http://www.ohloh.net/p/wesnoth/analyses/latest
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20100803 13:33:22< zookeeper> note that ohloh counts WML as c++
20100803 13:34:07< timotei> lol?
20100803 13:34:08< timotei> :))
20100803 13:34:10< timotei> nice
20100803 13:34:50< fendrin> timotei: 9% java, not bad. That should be all yours.
20100803 13:34:52< zookeeper> well, at least it says my primary language is c++, so...
20100803 13:34:58< timotei> :P
20100803 13:35:03< timotei> maybe yes
20100803 13:35:24< zookeeper> with that in mind, 232,157 lines seems awfully little actually.
20100803 13:35:33< timotei> why isn't Ivanovic noted as the manager?
20100803 13:36:19< zookeeper> i think UtBS alone must be at about 50000 lines
20100803 13:36:31< timotei> utbs?
20100803 13:36:35< timotei> under the burning sun?
20100803 13:36:41< zookeeper> so maybe it doesn't count .cfg files in that after all. dunno.
20100803 13:36:43< zookeeper> yeah
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20100803 13:40:30< Crab_> 232 thousands of code lines are for c++ code only, no wml included.
20100803 13:42:11< zookeeper> ok, makes sense
20100803 13:42:46< zookeeper> i wonder why it still counts my WML commits as c++ instead of "other" or something
20100803 13:43:32< zookeeper> oh, wait, it doesn't
20100803 13:43:52< timotei> hmm
20100803 13:43:54< timotei> what is ToD?
20100803 13:43:55< zookeeper> it just ignores them, and for some reason i have 54 c++ lines, so it puts that as my primary language
20100803 13:43:58< zookeeper> time of day
20100803 13:44:23< timotei> oh ok
20100803 13:44:35< timotei> zookeeper: maybe teach ohloh WML?:))
20100803 13:44:42< elias> oh, i have 6000 lines of C++ and 11000 lines of python :)
20100803 13:44:58< zookeeper> timotei, i'm not sure how. all it'd need to do is look at the file extension
20100803 13:45:22< elias> would have to mail them i think
20100803 13:47:04< fendrin> timotei: Do you have any idea why my svn shows some of you java files as modified and wants to commit them?
20100803 13:47:14< timotei> hmm
20100803 13:47:15< fendrin> timotei: Without any manual changes from me, that is.
20100803 13:47:24< timotei> I think yes
20100803 13:47:36< timotei> some of them may have windows line endings..
20100803 13:47:48< timotei> and when updating your copy it converts them back to linux
20100803 13:47:55< timotei> but don't know exactly if it's this
20100803 13:48:05< fendrin> Ah, okay.
20100803 13:48:12< fendrin> We should fix that somehow.
20100803 13:48:15< timotei> hmm
20100803 13:48:18< timotei> give me a name
20100803 13:48:32< fendrin> Karl
20100803 13:48:40< timotei> even though I've setup eclipse to use just unix
20100803 13:48:45< fendrin> good old german name :-)
20100803 13:48:54< timotei> no, java files names which are 'modified'
20100803 13:50:26< fendrin> timotei: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com/QuKcQ8qz
20100803 13:52:50< elias> is svn:eol-style set on those files?
20100803 13:54:50< fendrin> timotei: ^
20100803 13:57:00< timotei> elias: I remember poor Espreon did that on all my files
20100803 13:58:28< timotei> fendrin: well, right, that didn't have unix eol:P
20100803 13:58:35< timotei> ok, I gonna fix them
20100803 14:00:28< fendrin> timotei: you should do that with the mentioned svn:eol-style attribute.
20100803 14:00:36< timotei> it's already set...
20100803 14:00:39< fendrin> If I am not mistaken ...
20100803 14:00:59< timotei> they already have the props
20100803 14:01:18< timotei> but inside the files file endings are still windows
20100803 14:03:34< elias> if eol-style is set to native, svn will convert them to CRLF under windows
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20100803 14:03:46< elias> if it's set to LF, it will use LF everywhere
20100803 14:04:23< elias> (and if it's not set at all... you get a mess if anyone uses CRLF :P)
20100803 14:04:47< timotei> I use git
20100803 14:04:56< timotei> but I'll check the commit
20100803 14:06:29< elias> i see, so git-svn might get CRLF files if they are set to native
20100803 14:06:53< timotei> ye
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20100803 14:09:09< fendrin> timotei: How can I switch to the wesnoth "View"?
20100803 14:09:26< timotei> hmm, there's no such view (yet)
20100803 14:09:53< fendrin> timotei: And no perspective?
20100803 14:10:06< timotei> fendrin: hmm, there is the Default WML perspective
20100803 14:10:09< timotei> but it hasn't anything yet
20100803 14:10:16< fendrin> timotei: Okay, then how can I import a campaign?
20100803 14:10:18< timotei> fendrin: as I need to build that from ground
20100803 14:10:33< timotei> fendrin: hmm, create a new empty project
20100803 14:10:39< timotei> and drop your campaign files there
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20100803 14:11:32< fendrin> timotei: Oh
20100803 14:13:01< timotei> fendrin: you're right. I forgot to create a Import campaign wizard :D
20100803 14:13:22< fendrin> timotei: Don't worry. I guess that is little work.
20100803 14:13:29< timotei> kinda yes
20100803 14:14:31< fendrin> timotei: Preset pathes on my linux are great. They make me laugh.
20100803 14:14:38< timotei> :))
20100803 14:14:46< fendrin> "/home/fabi/.local/share/wesnoth/1.9" 
20100803 14:14:51< timotei> they matched?:P
20100803 14:14:54< fendrin> user data directory.
20100803 14:14:59< fendrin> No not a single one.
20100803 14:15:13< timotei> umm on linux I took the new XDG naming convetion
20100803 14:15:34< timotei> where's yours now?
20100803 14:16:15< timotei> since in wesnoth 1.9 that XDG convention will be used
20100803 14:16:20< fendrin> timotei: I have /home/fabi/.wesnoth
20100803 14:16:31< timotei> is there any number?
20100803 14:16:33< timotei> or just:
20100803 14:16:36< fendrin> timotei: And /home/fabi/.wesnoth1.8
20100803 14:16:38< timotei> .wesnoth/data/addons
20100803 14:16:46< fendrin> right
20100803 14:16:50< timotei> ok
20100803 14:17:04< timotei> ok added them :P)
20100803 14:17:18< timotei> btw, where is the executable installed?
20100803 14:17:22< fendrin> The rest of my setup can't be guessed easily. 
20100803 14:17:29< timotei> ok
20100803 14:17:30< timotei> :P
20100803 14:17:38< billynux> timotei, type which wesnoth
20100803 14:17:41< timotei> I need to enter linux later to find some another paths
20100803 14:17:48< fendrin> timotei: On linux, wesnoth should be on the search path.
20100803 14:17:57< timotei> billynux: what?
20100803 14:18:06< fendrin> timotei: So you can just go with wesnoth as binary name.
20100803 14:18:14< billynux> timotei, type "which wesnoth" (without quotes) on any linux with wesnoth installed
20100803 14:18:17< timotei> oh,
20100803 14:18:29< billynux> $ which wesnoth /usr/local/bin/wesnoth
20100803 14:18:38< fendrin> timotei: That will give you a full absolute path.
20100803 14:18:51< timotei> thanks
20100803 14:18:58< fendrin> But if which works it is in a searchpath because which does not do anything else.
20100803 14:19:10< timotei> ok
20100803 14:19:16< fendrin> So you can easily just set "wesnoth" without path as the default.
20100803 14:19:26< timotei> ok
20100803 14:19:38< timotei> (commiting the fix now:P )
20100803 14:21:11< CIA-87> timotei * r45136 /trunk/utils/java/org.wesnoth.wml.ui/src/org/wesnoth/ui/contentassist/WMLProposalProvider.java: 
20100803 14:21:11< CIA-87> eclipse plugin: pass the 'ruleProposal' parameter
20100803 14:21:11< CIA-87> even if we have a valid node
20100803 14:21:11< CIA-87> timotei * r45137 /trunk/utils/java/ (2 files in 2 dirs): eclipse plugin: don't add already added keys in the proposal
20100803 14:21:21< CIA-87> timotei * r45138 /trunk/utils/java/org.wesnoth.wml.ui/src/org/wesnoth/ui/contentassist/WMLProposalProvider.java: eclipse plugin: don't add already completed tags in the proposal
20100803 14:21:21< CIA-87> timotei * r45139 /trunk/utils/java/eclipse_plugin/src/wesnoth_eclipse_plugin/schema/ (SchemaParser.java Tag.java TagKey.java): eclipse plugin: add some more methods for a better usage
20100803 14:21:31< CIA-87> timotei * r45140 /trunk/utils/java/ (3 files in 2 dirs): eclipse plugin: take in account of tag/key cardinality when proposing it
20100803 14:21:50< CIA-87> timotei * r45141 /trunk/utils/java/eclipse_plugin/templates/paths/ (linux_exec.txt linux_user.txt): eclipse plugin: add more search paths for directories
20100803 14:23:24< timotei> fendrin: but wait. it it suggested that, it means the path exists ;)
20100803 14:23:29< timotei> s/it/if
20100803 14:23:37< timotei> so you're 'doing it wrong' :))
20100803 14:23:38< timotei> to say
20100803 14:25:02< fendrin> timotei: You are right. That directory exists.
20100803 14:28:03< timotei> fendrin: the importing how should be done?:)
20100803 14:28:17< timotei> fendrin: nvm, actually is only one way:D
20100803 14:31:12< fendrin> timotei: Okay, I just did the setup right. Took an 1.8 I installed from the deb repository.
20100803 14:31:46< fendrin> That is bound to /home/fabi/.wesnoth1.8
20100803 14:31:59< fendrin> Now I can see IftU
20100803 14:32:04< fendrin> it has 100 errors.
20100803 14:32:22< timotei> wow
20100803 14:32:23< timotei> so few?:D
20100803 14:32:28< timotei> nice
20100803 14:32:47< timotei> that must be: either arrays in macros, or macro defines (this are the most common)
20100803 14:34:50< fendrin> timotei: It's also $variable that causes it to fail.
20100803 14:34:57< timotei> hmm
20100803 14:35:04< timotei> is that inside a macro call?
20100803 14:35:14< timotei> well, nevermind, I'll find them eventually
20100803 14:35:21< timotei> as I'm testing the grammar with the whole mainline
20100803 14:36:15< fendrin> timotei: Is there a way to work on a mainlined LoW for example?
20100803 14:37:20< timotei> fendrin: well, if you import the LoW yes
20100803 14:37:23< timotei> into an existing project
20100803 14:38:45< fendrin> timotei: You import the campaigns form the addons dir. Can you just like that import all campaigns from the specified working directory as well?
20100803 14:39:24< timotei> hmm
20100803 14:39:30< timotei> actually I'm creating a project on that location
20100803 14:39:37< timotei> I'm trying now with low
20100803 14:40:12< fendrin> timotei: Well, I have put it at "/usr/share/games/wesnoth".
20100803 14:40:38< fendrin> isn't the addon project at /home/fabi/.wesnoth1.8?
20100803 14:40:52< timotei> yes it is
20100803 14:42:57< timotei> brb food
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20100803 15:56:07< shadowmaster> what the hell..
20100803 15:56:33< shadowmaster> I am away on vacation and this *$#@½ university decides to blacklist the only IRC port that worked for me, 7070
20100803 15:56:50< shadowmaster> s/am/go/
20100803 15:57:20< timotei> :P
20100803 16:06:31< timotei> god, at time I wish every language was like python
20100803 16:06:32< timotei> public!
20100803 16:06:37< timotei> s/time/times
20100803 16:06:38-!- GNUtoo|laptop [~gnutoo@80.10.46.40] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100803 16:07:06< GNUtoo|laptop> hi is that libsdl ldd correct for wesnoth? http://pastebin.com/4RXhVKxF
20100803 16:07:24< GNUtoo|laptop> more specifically I've no music
20100803 16:07:32< GNUtoo|laptop> despite of having the ogg files
20100803 16:07:42< GNUtoo|laptop> there is a libsdl error
20100803 16:09:12< shadowmaster> no
20100803 16:09:20< GNUtoo|laptop> ok
20100803 16:09:31< GNUtoo|laptop> it should be linked to libvorbis+libogg0?
20100803 16:09:31< shadowmaster> although I can't remember whether libsdl uses dlopen() for ogg vorbis support
20100803 16:09:44< GNUtoo|laptop> I recompiled it
20100803 16:09:50< GNUtoo|laptop> I passed that arguments:
20100803 16:09:52< shadowmaster> what better way to check this other than trying it out with my laptop
20100803 16:10:08< GNUtoo|laptop> on laptop it's not dlopened
20100803 16:10:11< GNUtoo|laptop> it's directly linked
20100803 16:10:31< shadowmaster> GNUtoo|laptop: noticed.
20100803 16:10:33< shadowmaster> http://pastebin.com/1QYyh44p
20100803 16:10:41< GNUtoo|laptop> laptop: 	libogg.so.0 => /usr/lib/libogg.so.0 (0x00007f3019d64000)
20100803 16:10:56< GNUtoo|laptop> still laptop: 	libvorbis.so.0 => /usr/lib/libvorbis.so.0 (0x00007f367a609000)
20100803 16:10:57< GNUtoo|laptop> hmmm
20100803 16:11:05< shadowmaster> just look at the pastebin :P
20100803 16:11:10< GNUtoo|laptop> the following configure arguments were passed
20100803 16:11:13< GNUtoo|laptop> ok
20100803 16:11:28< shadowmaster> you might consider your build environment broken if you haven't got at least libogg and libvorbis linked in
20100803 16:11:42< shadowmaster> it makes sense to support FLAC too I guess
20100803 16:12:17< GNUtoo|laptop> --disable-music-mp3 --enable-music-ogg --enable-music-ogg-tremor --enable-music-mp3-mad-gpl
20100803 16:12:25< GNUtoo|laptop> that are the configure arguments
20100803 16:12:31< shadowmaster> and what's the configure output?
20100803 16:12:37< GNUtoo|laptop> I'll look
20100803 16:12:47< GNUtoo|laptop> tremor and mad were present
20100803 16:12:50< shadowmaster> btw, is this a source or binary system distribution?
20100803 16:12:50< GNUtoo|laptop> I'll look
20100803 16:13:00< GNUtoo|laptop> what do you mean?
20100803 16:13:11< GNUtoo|laptop> I think it's source
20100803 16:13:18< GNUtoo|laptop> it's openembedded
20100803 16:13:22< shadowmaster> Gentoo Linux is a source-based distribution for instance
20100803 16:13:29< shadowmaster> Debian is a binary-based distribution.
20100803 16:13:38< GNUtoo|laptop> hmmm
20100803 16:13:43< GNUtoo|laptop> it's not a distro
20100803 16:13:48< GNUtoo|laptop> it's a build system
20100803 16:13:56< GNUtoo|laptop> and it works more or less like gentoo
20100803 16:14:01< GNUtoo|laptop> but it produce binaries
20100803 16:14:01< shadowmaster> it looks like an equivalent of a source-based distribution, yes
20100803 16:14:21< GNUtoo|laptop> it's for cross-compiling
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20100803 16:14:38< shadowmaster> so you need to make sure the SDL_mixer configure script could find libogg and libvorbis. Just passing the parameters to the script often isn't enough to solve configuration issues :P
20100803 16:15:05< GNUtoo|laptop> I'll look thanks a lot
20100803 16:16:07< fendrin> timotei: are you back?
20100803 16:16:13< timotei> yes
20100803 16:16:38< fendrin> timotei: Okay i was wrong there are 6361 errors when opening iftu.
20100803 16:16:53< timotei> hmm, I thought so:D
20100803 16:17:04< shadowmaster> wait, IftU is serving as a guinea pig? for what?
20100803 16:17:09< timotei> :))
20100803 16:17:13< timotei> testing my plugin:P
20100803 16:17:19< timotei> harmless testing
20100803 16:17:28< timotei> I test it with whole mainline
20100803 16:17:33< shadowmaster> you do realize that it's the worst piece of crap ever in terms of code organization?
20100803 16:17:44< timotei> hmm I don't know
20100803 16:17:46< fendrin> shadowmaster: Sure, that is why it is a testcase.
20100803 16:17:53< shadowmaster> my coding practices there aren't exactly standard
20100803 16:17:55< shadowmaster> :P
20100803 16:17:56< timotei> but it's good (the mainline) to be tested
20100803 16:18:07< timotei> although someone should make wml syntax more strict
20100803 16:18:10< timotei> or something like that
20100803 16:18:26< GNUtoo|laptop> -- dynamic libFLAC -> libFLAC.so.8
20100803 16:18:31< shadowmaster> we had plans for a GSoC project implementing WML schemata.
20100803 16:18:45< GNUtoo|laptop> configure: WARNING: *** Unable to find Ogg Vorbis Tremor library (http://www.xiph.org/)
20100803 16:18:47< GNUtoo|laptop> ouch
20100803 16:18:54< shadowmaster> no idea what it happened to that. fendrin also had his own attempt at that and also Sirp, but all those seem to have vanished.
20100803 16:18:55< GNUtoo|laptop> I'll try to fix that
20100803 16:19:00< shadowmaster> s/it//
20100803 16:19:43< timotei> well... I wonder if anyone would want that...
20100803 16:19:54< timotei> since there's already pretty much things for wesnoth written in WML
20100803 16:20:08< GNUtoo|laptop> btw how many free space is needed for playing wesnoth?
20100803 16:20:18< GNUtoo|laptop> I mean it write temporary files to disk like for the cache
20100803 16:20:18< timotei> GNUtoo|laptop: maxium 200 megs?
20100803 16:20:34< timotei> oh
20100803 16:20:42< timotei> actually 1.8.3 is 386 megs :|
20100803 16:20:46< GNUtoo|laptop> ok
20100803 16:20:50< GNUtoo|laptop> I'll free some space
20100803 16:20:52< shadowmaster> timotei: you mean minimum
20100803 16:20:56< GNUtoo|laptop> because it doesn't work because of that
20100803 16:21:01< timotei> minimum yeah
20100803 16:21:12< GNUtoo|laptop> mimum means that it works with the minimum?
20100803 16:21:12< shadowmaster> GNUtoo|laptop: 
20100803 16:21:14< shadowmaster> shadowm@bluecore:~$ du -sh .wesnoth-1.8/cache/
20100803 16:21:14< shadowmaster> 85M	.wesnoth-1.8/cache/
20100803 16:21:19< timotei> wow:O
20100803 16:21:19< GNUtoo|laptop> ok
20100803 16:21:36< shadowmaster> that might include multiple add-ons, but it could give you an idea anyway
20100803 16:21:44< GNUtoo|laptop> I've my microsd card full of music....I should delete some
20100803 16:21:52< shadowmaster> there's also a command line switch that prevents creation and loading of the cache
20100803 16:22:01< GNUtoo|laptop> isn't that dangerous?
20100803 16:22:10< GNUtoo|laptop> ah no it was valid cache
20100803 16:22:12< GNUtoo|laptop> which was
20100803 16:22:57< shadowmaster> --nocache might result in decreased performance when switching campaigns and reloading saved games I guess
20100803 16:23:12< shadowmaster> as well when starting Wesnoth or a campaign for the first time in the same session
20100803 16:23:49< GNUtoo|laptop> ok vorbisdec is there
20100803 16:23:56< GNUtoo|laptop> usual cross compilations issues I bet
20100803 16:24:00< GNUtoo|laptop> ok
20100803 16:24:17< timotei> great... eclipse architecture sucks sometimes
20100803 16:24:19< GNUtoo|laptop> it's already ultra slow because of my ultra-slow microsd
20100803 16:24:27< timotei> why wouldn't they allow me to a project builder isntance
20100803 16:26:28< esr> Hello all. I'm about to sign off; availability will be spotty until Sunday, as I'll be at World Boardgaming Championships
20100803 16:27:10-!- Appleman1234 [~Appleman1@CPE-60-226-176-19.qld.bigpond.net.au] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100803 16:27:58< esr> Have fun while I'm gone.
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20100803 16:28:59< fendrin> timotei: Are you already working on that errors?
20100803 16:29:17< timotei> fendrin: no
20100803 16:29:25< timotei> fendrin: I won't stay forever on the grammar
20100803 16:29:32< timotei> fendrin: I'll make the autocompletion stuff first
20100803 16:30:02< fendrin> timotei: I guess most of the errors are simple one.
20100803 16:30:15< timotei> fendrin: yes they are. but I need to describe entire wml formally
20100803 16:30:20< timotei> fendrin: in the grammar file
20100803 16:30:35< timotei> fendrin: I'll try again from scratch next weeks, maybe I'll get some new ideas
20100803 16:31:17< fendrin> timotei: Okay, maybe we talk clothier and thing together about the problems?
20100803 16:31:24< fendrin> s/thing/think
20100803 16:31:29< timotei> yeah
20100803 16:31:36< timotei> if you want to take a look
20100803 16:31:39< timotei> at current grammar:
20100803 16:31:56< timotei> http://svn.gna.org/viewcvs/wesnoth/trunk/utils/java/org.wesnoth.wml/src/org/wesnoth/WML.xtext?rev=45122&view=markup
20100803 16:32:43< GNUtoo|laptop> libmikimod issue
20100803 16:32:46< GNUtoo|laptop> usr/lib/libmikmod.so: undefined reference to `floor'
20100803 16:32:58< GNUtoo|laptop> that was while trying to link against libvorbis
20100803 16:33:01< GNUtoo|laptop> I'll try to fix it
20100803 16:34:19< GNUtoo|laptop> hmmm there is a warning about libc.so...I'll ask the toolchain person
20100803 16:36:23< CIA-87> ai0867 * r45142 /trunk/src/ (9 files in 4 dirs): Make t_translation::error and incorrect_map_format_exception inherit from game::error
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20100803 16:58:59< CIA-87> ai0867 * r45143 /trunk/src/ (11 files in 4 dirs): Rename incorrect_map_format_exception to incorrect_map_format_error
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20100803 17:39:52< GNUtoo|laptop> btw any news on the inclusion of some features of the iphone/ipad port in stock wesnoth?
20100803 17:40:08< GNUtoo|laptop> for instance:
20100803 17:40:15< GNUtoo|laptop> *screen layout
20100803 17:40:27< GNUtoo|laptop> *touch scrolling(aka kinetic scrolling)
20100803 17:41:01< timotei> GNUtoo|laptop: you'd better ask kyle, as he's working on that
20100803 17:41:14< GNUtoo|laptop> ok thanks a lot
20100803 17:41:29< GNUtoo|laptop> kyle is the iphone porter?
20100803 17:41:38< timotei> um, afair yes
20100803 17:43:10< GNUtoo|laptop> ok thanks a lot
20100803 17:43:16< GNUtoo|laptop> at what hours is he on irc?
20100803 17:44:03-!- alink [~alink@wesnoth/developer/alink] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20100803 17:44:04< timotei> I don
20100803 17:44:08< timotei> I don't know
20100803 17:46:00< zookeeper> he doesn't come here regularly
20100803 17:47:01< GNUtoo|laptop> ok
20100803 17:47:07< timotei> you can PM it on forums though
20100803 17:47:14< GNUtoo|laptop> yes I thought about that
20100803 17:47:24< GNUtoo|laptop> because I already contacted him once trough forums
20100803 17:47:32< GNUtoo|laptop> I was interested in his sources
20100803 17:47:43< GNUtoo|laptop> because I've a somewhat similar device
20100803 17:47:48< GNUtoo|laptop> 480x320 screen too
20100803 17:48:01< GNUtoo|laptop> same kind of touchscreens
20100803 17:48:06< GNUtoo|laptop> low memory too
20100803 17:48:08< timotei> the sources are free afair
20100803 17:48:13< GNUtoo|laptop> I know
20100803 17:48:22< GNUtoo|laptop> I've already looked at them in the past
20100803 17:48:35< GNUtoo|laptop> I was the one who asked for them in the forum
20100803 17:48:49< timotei> oh
20100803 17:48:50< GNUtoo|laptop> I've even tried the wml files
20100803 17:48:54< timotei> :)
20100803 17:48:55< GNUtoo|laptop> but it didn't work
20100803 17:49:10< GNUtoo|laptop> at the end I made the stock wml files work
20100803 17:49:36< GNUtoo|laptop> but with his code there is a lot of room for improvement...
20100803 17:49:44< GNUtoo|laptop> I mean improvements for me
20100803 17:54:26< GNUtoo|laptop> s/me/my "port" which is not really a port
20100803 17:54:46< GNUtoo|laptop> it's more something like an ebuild
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20100803 18:34:23< shadowmaster> more KMS blinking
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20100803 18:57:30< anonymissimus> silene: what about a deprecation warning for register_wml_action etc
20100803 18:58:19< silene> anonymissimus: there will be one, but not yet: 1.11 is still far away
20100803 18:59:12< anonymissimus> what we would actually need is a "wmllint for lua" lifting-tool
20100803 18:59:17< timotei> silene: wesnoth 1.11?:D
20100803 18:59:32< anonymissimus> not yet but when some versions have passed...
20100803 18:59:47< silene> timotei: yes
20100803 18:59:57< timotei> I don't know why
20100803 19:00:02< timotei> but 1.11 sounds inferior than 1.9
20100803 19:00:03< timotei> :|
20100803 19:01:40< elias> when will wesnoth 2.0 be out?
20100803 19:01:51< alink> timotei: that's not a decimal point
20100803 19:02:20-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100803 19:03:05< alink> but I wonder what will happen to all these sites who currently refer to 1.8.3 as 1.83
20100803 19:03:18< silene> elias: when there is change major enough to warrant it; simultaneous multiplayer for instance (not that i'm pushing for it, just that it would be a major change)
20100803 19:03:33< elias> alink: in another project, that's how we actually stored the version (in a float variable) :P
20100803 19:04:55< alink> elias: and what did you do after 1.9 or 0.9 ? used 1.91 1.92 etc ...
20100803 19:05:05< elias> well, it's causing problems :P
20100803 19:05:16< alink> I guess :)
20100803 19:05:54< CIA-87> silene * r45144 /trunk/src/scripting/lua.cpp: Added filter-based getter for locations.
20100803 19:05:56< CIA-87> silene * r45145 /trunk/ (data/lua/wml-tags.lua src/game_events.cpp): Moved [store_locations] implementation to Lua.
20100803 19:06:00< CIA-87> silene * r45146 /trunk/src/scripting/lua.cpp: Added a match function for locations.
20100803 19:06:02< CIA-87> silene * r45147 /trunk/data/lua/wml-tags.lua: Fixed index in append mode.
20100803 19:06:32< shadowmaster> how many times.
20100803 19:06:36< shadowmaster> I forget how many times.
20100803 19:07:30< shadowmaster> I might need to fork this into a sticky and make it part of the minimum reading for forumers/developers along with the Posting Guidelines: http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?p=442765#p442765
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20100803 19:21:39< alink> I just notice now that our adds on main pages are all about charities. Is it new ? and is it controlled by us ?
20100803 19:22:04< alink> but it's nice :-)
20100803 19:23:18< alink> assuming that these charities are legit (since they buy adds)
20100803 19:25:49< alink> s/adds/ads in previous sentences
20100803 19:25:59-!- timotei changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: 132 bugs, 283 feature requests, 12 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
20100803 19:26:06< timotei> ops? wtf?
20100803 19:26:14< shadowmaster> your client is broken
20100803 19:26:16< shadowmaster> ditch it.
20100803 19:26:19< timotei> ok
20100803 19:26:23< timotei> it's Xchat
20100803 19:27:25< alink> Sirp: <alink> I just notice now that our adds on main pages are all about charities. Is it new ? and is it controlled by us ?
20100803 19:30:42< anonymissimus> timotei: how is the known wml data stored in the eclipse plugin ?
20100803 19:31:00< anonymissimus> does it e.g. allow adding custom lua tags
20100803 19:31:23< anonymissimus> and update to newer wml versions
20100803 19:31:46< timotei> umm...
20100803 19:31:53< timotei> custom lua tags?
20100803 19:32:07< timotei> I'm not sure I get your question
20100803 19:32:08< anonymissimus> the emacs mode is still useful since the known wml data can be updated, although it is no longer or currently not developed
20100803 19:32:22< timotei> known wml data?
20100803 19:32:28< anonymissimus> tags that are specific to an add-on
20100803 19:32:33< timotei> oh
20100803 19:32:45< timotei> that is, macro defines for exaple?
20100803 19:32:54< anonymissimus> not quite
20100803 19:33:12< anonymissimus> e.g. the emacs mode knows that there can be a [filter] ina n [event]
20100803 19:33:36< anonymissimus> so when invoking autocompletion it knows how to complete
20100803 19:34:07< anonymissimus> if [filteter] would be a custom tag, it could bemanually added to the known wml data
20100803 19:35:02< anonymissimus> otherwise I would get lots of useless warnings when using the wml check
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20100803 19:37:13< CIA-87> ai0867 * r45148 /trunk/src/ (10 files in 2 dirs): Made some more errors inherit from game::error
20100803 19:38:41< CIA-87> silene * r45149 /trunk/src/scripting/lua.cpp: Added error messages for missing vconfig rather than silently ignoring them.
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20100803 19:40:52< timotei> anonymissimus: well, the plugin knows the possible tags
20100803 19:41:01< timotei> but doesn't know anything about the custom ones
20100803 19:41:08< timotei> since I don't know how they are declared
20100803 19:41:16< timotei> are they defined by the game?
20100803 19:41:19< timotei> or by you?
20100803 19:41:24< anonymissimus> by me
20100803 19:41:47< anonymissimus> how does the plugin know about the tags ?
20100803 19:42:01< timotei> hehe
20100803 19:42:03< timotei> from schema.cfg
20100803 19:42:04< timotei> :P
20100803 19:42:18< timotei> actually I base a lot of information on schema
20100803 19:42:20< anonymissimus> there are core lua tags...
20100803 19:42:36< timotei> ok, no support for lua yet
20100803 19:42:48< timotei> damn, my head hurts again:(
20100803 19:43:05< AI0867> anonymissimus: there is no difference between C++ tags and lua tags, other than how they are defined
20100803 19:43:30< AI0867> the schema can document them both (though it may not currently document any actionWML at all)
20100803 19:44:44< silene> AI0867: what anonymissimus needs a specific schema.cfg for each addon, since each addon has its own specfic tags
20100803 19:44:50< anonymissimus> yes, and lua tags custom to an add-on must be made known to the plugin as well
20100803 19:45:57< anonymissimus> silene points it out
20100803 19:47:13< AI0867> right, but you said "core lua tags"
20100803 19:47:43< anonymissimus> I said it to ask for the way that the eclipse plugin knows about those tags
20100803 19:48:10< anonymissimus> that they can be in an [event] and such
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20100803 20:15:46< CIA-87> zookeeper * r45150 /trunk/data/campaigns/ (6 files in 3 dirs): Added the new wood floor to a few maps in DiD, EI and UtBS.
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20100803 20:25:50< timotei> umm
20100803 20:25:54< timotei> elias: around?:_S
20100803 20:26:08< timotei> actually, AI0867 hi
20100803 20:26:16< elias> timotei: yes
20100803 20:26:21< timotei> AI0867: iirc, you made the xml output to wmlparser2, right?
20100803 20:26:53< timotei> elias: wmlparser2 give some strange output, and java sax parser complain about it:|
20100803 20:27:07< timotei> oh damn
20100803 20:27:12< timotei> nevermind. I'm stupid :))
20100803 20:27:17< elias> hm
20100803 20:27:19< timotei> I gave him the 'unpreprocessed' file :P
20100803 20:27:27< timotei> with defines and stuff;))
20100803 20:27:37< elias> that should work
20100803 20:27:42< elias> unless you use -n
20100803 20:28:01< elias> oh
20100803 20:28:03< timotei> yeah
20100803 20:28:04< timotei> :))
20100803 20:28:05< elias> not sure what the XML output does
20100803 20:28:11< timotei> whatever
20100803 20:28:16< timotei> I need to give the preprocessed file
20100803 20:28:16< elias> i guess it just discards the extra info anyway
20100803 20:28:21< timotei> but forgot about that
20100803 20:28:26< timotei> I'm using the -n
20100803 20:29:21< timotei> ha
20100803 20:29:22< timotei> it works:D
20100803 20:35:54< CIA-87> elias * r45151 /trunk/data/tools/wesnoth/wmlparser2.py: [wmlparser] fix unit tests which were broken
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20100803 20:56:18< timotei> fendrin: hey
20100803 20:56:32< timotei> fendrin: I've just finished the 'next scenario' proposal architecture:D
20100803 20:56:40< timotei> gotta try it with more than 1 scenario
20100803 21:05:01< timotei> god, the no-cache for common macros kills me
20100803 21:05:04< timotei> alink: hey:D
20100803 21:05:43< alink> timotei: mmh ?
20100803 21:06:04< timotei> alink: remember I asked you about the cache for common macros?
20100803 21:06:11< timotei> that will/should be used by --preprocess?
20100803 21:06:42< alink> does --preprocess is still slow for you ?
20100803 21:06:53< timotei> well
20100803 21:06:58< alink> have you tried with the define NO_GUI ?
20100803 21:07:01< timotei> hmm
20100803 21:07:02< timotei> n
20100803 21:07:03< timotei> no
20100803 21:07:05< timotei> let'me check
20100803 21:07:16< alink> IIRC it was ~10x faster
20100803 21:07:23< timotei> wow
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20100803 21:09:04< alink> also don't use -o0 build if startup time is important
20100803 21:09:29< timotei> hmm
20100803 21:09:31< timotei> what's that?
20100803 21:10:10< alink> the level of optimization of the build, at least when using gcc
20100803 21:10:35< timotei> well, imagine people will use the plugin with default installed wesnoth..
20100803 21:11:31< alink> timotei: of course, I was only referring to your developer process
20100803 21:12:29< alink> I sometimes use -o0 build when I know that I will compile a lot, but for testing that significantly slow startup time
20100803 21:12:52< timotei> hmm, how can I insert the time in my std::cerr<<?
20100803 21:13:14< alink> SDL_GetTicks() give you the ms passed since start
20100803 21:13:34< alink> and logdomain functions have a flag to show time, I think
20100803 21:13:57< timotei> well, what logdomain is needed to use for general info?
20100803 21:14:25< timotei> I see: info, warn, debug.. 
20100803 21:14:29< timotei> and err
20100803 21:14:37< timotei> but info needs to be activated iirc
20100803 21:14:45< alink> that's logging level
20100803 21:15:06< alink> use --logdomains to see them all
20100803 21:15:29< alink> and there is a 'general' but maybe it refer to default/blank logdomain
20100803 21:16:17< alink> I also see 'preprocessor' and 'config'
20100803 21:16:50< alink> feel free to add you own if needed
20100803 21:21:22< timotei> :(
20100803 21:21:24< timotei> the same thing
20100803 21:21:28< timotei> with NO_GUI
20100803 21:21:32< timotei> almost the same
20100803 21:21:36< timotei> it still takes 5 seconds
20100803 21:21:37< timotei> :(
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20100803 21:21:51< alink> no improvements? let me recheck
20100803 21:21:54< timotei> no
20100803 21:23:59< timotei> hmm
20100803 21:24:16< timotei> I'm wondering how does the preprocessor cache things
20100803 21:24:59< alink> indeed, same here too. Something is wrong, that should be faster, let me investigate
20100803 21:25:52< timotei> the thing is, I need to prepeare the ground for macro things:D
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20100803 21:32:48< alink> no I used the wrong data-dir syntax again
20100803 21:33:10< timotei> ha?
20100803 21:33:12< alink> with the correct syntax, that seems again 10x faster
20100803 21:33:23< timotei> --data-dir you saying?
20100803 21:33:31< alink> but maybe we don't speak about the same task
20100803 21:33:47< timotei> I just did wesnoth -p myfile /tmp/
20100803 21:33:52< timotei> it takes up to 5 sec
20100803 21:34:00< timotei> :|
20100803 21:34:05< timotei> and that is LONG
20100803 21:34:10< timotei> I'm waiting for compiling
20100803 21:34:13< timotei> to see the exact time
20100803 21:34:23< alink> If i do that it go look my installed directory I think
20100803 21:34:55< alink> change a cfg file (add blabla="foo") and check if it's in the result
20100803 21:35:09< timotei> in what result?
20100803 21:35:25< timotei> I have a sample file
20100803 21:35:27< timotei> and preprocessing it
20100803 21:35:33< timotei> takes 5 secs
20100803 21:35:58< timotei> silene: heey
20100803 21:36:17< alink> mmh you have .cfg and cfg.plain files as result of -p, right ?
20100803 21:36:23< silene> timotei: ?
20100803 21:36:41< timotei> silene: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com/xYCaMX0p
20100803 21:36:43< timotei> I'm having that
20100803 21:36:49< timotei> why does it write in the .plain
20100803 21:36:53< timotei> 3 times: #
20100803 21:36:53< timotei> þline 2 ~add-ons/timo/_main.cfg
20100803 21:36:54< timotei> #
20100803 21:36:54< timotei> þline 2 ~add-ons/timo/_main.cfg
20100803 21:36:54< timotei> #
20100803 21:36:56< timotei> þline 2 ~add-ons/timo/_main.cfg
20100803 21:37:12< timotei> that means, it processed 3 macros in macros.cfg?
20100803 21:37:18< timotei> alink: of course
20100803 21:38:26< silene> timotei: seems like it
20100803 21:40:41< alink> mmh ok, here I preprocessed the whole data :   time src/wesnoth --data-dir . --preprocess=NO_GUI data result
20100803 21:40:51< alink> which is a bit different
20100803 21:44:53< silene> timotei: no idea why, though
20100803 21:45:02< timotei> silene: it isn't that.
20100803 21:45:10< timotei> I've added 2 more macros (non0-callled)
20100803 21:45:13< timotei> and still the same result
20100803 21:45:45< timotei> alink: hmm, it seems I can make a cache for that :D
20100803 21:45:54< timotei> it seems the preproc_define has a 'write' method
20100803 21:46:02< timotei> I'll just write all parsed info from the mainline
20100803 21:46:07< timotei> into a file and there we go
20100803 21:46:07< timotei> :P
20100803 21:46:24< alink> yes indeed seems possible
20100803 21:46:34< timotei> even though
20100803 21:46:40< timotei> a local cache for that would be nice
20100803 21:47:03< silene> timotei: there is at least one because you exited a file and one because you scanned a directory; i don't know where the third one is coming from
20100803 21:47:34< alink> best would be to use the normal wesnoth cache which check WML change
20100803 21:47:50< timotei> well... normal wesnoth cache?
20100803 21:47:57< timotei> how does it check for wml change?
20100803 21:48:07< timotei> I can't use that. it would need too much time
20100803 21:48:16< alink> the ones stored in user directory
20100803 21:48:18< timotei> since the preprocess will be invoked on each file save...
20100803 21:48:29< timotei> I need to squeeze how much I can :P
20100803 21:48:43< alink> but i was referring to the code of that feature
20100803 21:49:02< timotei> fendrin: would be acceptable for the plugin to take for himself 2-3 seconds at startup for making a cache for current session?
20100803 21:49:10< timotei> alink: oh. yeah
20100803 21:49:10< timotei> ok
20100803 21:50:01< timotei> lol
20100803 21:50:06< timotei> can't I do: #define COMPUS
20100803 21:50:06< timotei> 	{TIMO}+{BA}
20100803 21:50:06< timotei> #enddef ?
20100803 21:50:25< alink> timotei: but if your plan is to always regenerate that macro cache once before doing several operations, then it's maybe not needed
20100803 21:50:48< timotei> well...
20100803 21:51:07< timotei> I'm taking for granted that the data/core stuff won't modify (so many times) while the user creates it's addon
20100803 21:51:08< timotei> ;)
20100803 21:51:15< timotei> so one cache to rule them all
20100803 21:51:25< timotei> and then, everything is done locally for each project
20100803 21:55:11< timotei> alink: 3preprocessing common macros from /data/core...
20100803 21:55:12< timotei> 2722acquired 1506 defines.
20100803 21:56:48< timotei> alink: there is no improvement with NO_GUI
20100803 21:56:54< timotei> since I don't parse anything terrain:P
20100803 21:57:05< timotei> remember, preprocess is in the first time parsing of command line args
20100803 21:57:34< timotei> anyway, I'm testing the preproc_write thingy
20100803 21:57:49< alink> timotei: yes, I thought that --preprocess always parsed data/core but there is something weird there
20100803 21:57:49< CIA-87> timotei * r45152 /trunk/utils/java/eclipse_plugin/src/wesnoth_eclipse_plugin/wizards/ (2 files in 2 dirs): eclipse plugin: enable the creation of project in other locations than workspace too
20100803 21:58:14< timotei> what?
20100803 21:58:25< alink> maybe try NO_TERRAIN_GFX, I also see no change, but it should be one
20100803 21:58:50< CIA-87> timotei * r45153 /trunk/utils/java/eclipse_plugin/src/wesnoth_eclipse_plugin/ (6 files in 5 dirs): 
20100803 21:58:50< CIA-87> eclipse plugin: change the container for project properties
20100803 21:58:50< CIA-87> to a better one
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20100803 21:59:04< CIA-87> timotei * r45154 /trunk/utils/java/ (5 files in 4 dirs): eclipse plugin: next_scenario/first_scenario completion - part II.
20100803 21:59:05< alink> timotei: I check the code and get back to you when I better understand what's going on
20100803 21:59:16< timotei> hmm
20100803 21:59:20< timotei> weirdnes:O
20100803 21:59:23< CIA-87> timotei * r45155 /trunk/utils/java/eclipse_plugin/src/wesnoth_eclipse_plugin/ (3 files in 2 dirs): eclipse plugin: handle errors got from wmlparser
20100803 21:59:29< timotei> yeah, only 454 macros parsed now
20100803 21:59:33< timotei> but the time looks double??
20100803 21:59:37< timotei> 3added 1 defines.
20100803 21:59:37< CIA-87> timotei * r45156 /trunk/src/game.cpp: show more detailed output for '--preprocess'
20100803 21:59:37< timotei> 4 preprocessing common macros from /data/core...
20100803 21:59:37< timotei> 4137 acquired 454 defines.
20100803 21:59:42< timotei> alink: ^
20100803 21:59:48< timotei> you can test it youself with the time
20100803 21:59:55< silene> timotei: if you are only interested in core macros, then just preprocess your file with data/core/macros; a cache won't bring any speed up in that case
20100803 22:00:38< timotei> actually i'm jusing: /data/core/
20100803 22:00:46< timotei> so, units enter that part too
20100803 22:01:18< timotei> hmm,
20100803 22:01:41< silene> timotei: that's why i'm saying data/core/macros/
20100803 22:01:56< timotei> alink: I've got an idea, what about adding an extra PREPROCESS define, to trim out things like: help and about?
20100803 22:02:13< timotei> silene: I was saying wrong. I need units too
20100803 22:02:29< timotei> alink: and editor too
20100803 22:02:43< alink> timotei: I think that help and about are not big enough to worth the trouble
20100803 22:02:51< timotei> aha
20100803 22:03:03< alink> but feel free to test by blanking them and check speed change
20100803 22:03:09< timotei> ok
20100803 22:03:14< timotei> that's better
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20100803 22:05:17< timotei> w00t. commented some things from there but it still gives me 454 macro defines:(
20100803 22:05:21< alink> and if there is a difference, better use NO_GUI for that so other things will have the same boost
20100803 22:05:34< timotei> alink: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com/WtfT4PWJ
20100803 22:05:39< timotei> isn't correct what I did?
20100803 22:06:51< fendrin> timotei: yes. 2-3 secs is surely okay. 
20100803 22:07:07< alink> In theory yes, but I see weird things about the preprocess of data/core. That's what I am investigating
20100803 22:07:18< timotei> ok
20100803 22:07:34< timotei> I'm too tired
20100803 22:07:41< timotei> alink: when you'll be online again?
20100803 22:08:16< alink> no idea, but I read logs
20100803 22:08:39< timotei> ok
20100803 22:08:40< alink> and I am often online ;-p
20100803 22:08:48< timotei> well, if you find anything
20100803 22:08:55< timotei> please leave a message, as I'm reading the logs
20100803 22:09:03< alink> ok
20100803 22:09:10< timotei> good night guys
20100803 22:09:16< timotei> good night alink , silene , fendrin 
20100803 22:09:16< alink> timotei: gn
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20100803 22:20:37< alink> timotei: ok, I see now, indeed NO_TERRAIN_GFX will not help you. The macro are parsed (since they are in data/core) but since they are not used they don't have any significant cost
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20100803 22:22:19< alink> the big guy here is units.cfg which you don't need in the "Processing common macros..." phase. So, as silene suggested, maybe consider replacing "data/core/" there by something smaller like "data/core/macros/"
20100803 22:23:04< alink> also, it would be nice to de-harcode these paths
20100803 22:23:14< alink> *de-hardcode
20100803 22:24:01< alink> timotei: removing units.cfg seems to give the ~10x boost
20100803 22:26:04< alink> ideally, you should be able to control what you want to preprocess like using "--preprocess data/core/macros,my_file"
20100803 22:26:33< alink> but I don't have a clear idea of what you need for your project :-p
20100803 22:29:15< alink> hum the --preprocess data/core,my_file  syntax will also write data/core stuff in the result, and you probably don't want that
20100803 22:30:01< elias> i need units.cfg for wmlunits :P
20100803 22:30:07< alink> perhaps --include data/core --preprocess myfile ?
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20100803 22:31:11< Crab_> alink: where --include can be cached separately...
20100803 22:31:14< alink> elias: yes but I am speaking about the hardcoded preprocess of data/core, you probably use "--preprocess units.cfg" or similar 
20100803 22:31:21< elias> --preprocess-defines A,B,C=5 --include data/core --preprocess myfile
20100803 22:31:29< elias> maybe like that (with a better name for the first option)
20100803 22:31:38< elias> and any number of --include is allowed
20100803 22:31:53< alink> at least that seems more flexible
20100803 22:32:36< elias> i'd just want the defines in a separate argument to make clear they are used for all included files (and also affect caching therefore)
20100803 22:32:53< alink> Crab_: yes caching the --include separately seems to be a good idea
20100803 22:33:05< Crab_> (--include plus defines)
20100803 22:34:18< alink> mmh if using the standard cache system, defines come with it (in the SHA1), but maybe it's some work
20100803 22:34:56< Crab_> or maybe separate 'defines for include' and 'defines for preprocess'
20100803 22:34:58< alink> but just data/core/macros/ is really fast, caching may be not needed
20100803 22:36:26< alink> Crab_: seems risky, there are define assumed global, if you start to use them here but not there, things get complicated
20100803 22:36:48< Crab_> alink: ok
20100803 22:38:05< Upthorn> Has the schedule for 1.9.0 release been determined?
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20100803 22:38:36< Upthorn> Somehow I thought it was supposed to come out on Sunday, but it doesn't seem to have
20100803 22:38:38< Crab_> Ivanovic: ^
20100803 22:40:46< Ivanovic> IIRWIIR
20100803 22:40:50< Ivanovic> ^^
20100803 22:40:52< Ivanovic> ;)
20100803 22:41:18< Crab_> Upthorn: were you able to get mp persistent variables working ?
20100803 22:47:37< Rhonda> wesbot: whatis iirwiir
20100803 22:47:39< wesbot> Rhonda: iirwiir stands for It Is Ready When It Is Ready
20100803 22:47:59< Crab_> ah, wesbot has learned this trick, too )
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20100803 22:48:21< boucman> hey all
20100803 22:48:26< gabba> hey boucman
20100803 22:48:30< Crab_> hi, boucman
20100803 22:48:34< Crab_> hi, gabba
20100803 22:48:49< boucman> :P
20100803 22:48:59< boucman> so, gabba how is it going ?
20100803 22:49:08< gabba> hi Crab_
20100803 22:49:46< gabba> boucman: good, I progressed well this week-end
20100803 22:50:08< boucman> :)
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20100803 22:50:51< boucman> i'm away from home until friday, at which point i'll probably do a review of your code, but we are now on the "landing course" for gsoc
20100803 22:51:13< boucman> i.e completing features to get things working
20100803 22:51:13< gabba> boucman: what do you think I should to after the unofficial pencils down date?
20100803 22:51:33< gabba> i.e. fix bugs, or just write comments / docs?
20100803 22:51:47< gabba> no new features would make sense at least
20100803 22:52:14< boucman> you mean the suggested pencil down or the final one ?
20100803 22:52:20< gabba> suggested
20100803 22:53:12< boucman> it will depend on what is missing. Ideally only bug fixes, but if a feature is missing to get it in a usable state, we should try to implement it anyway.
20100803 22:54:09< Upthorn> Upthscript Song announcement: Quilken (Sample This) - Hades (Sample This) [00:00/02:59] [320KBps Stereo mp3] Song 5036 out of 7607
20100803 22:54:26< Upthorn> err sorry about that
20100803 22:54:38< Upthorn> hit f11 on firefox to get out of full screen, just as it crashed
20100803 22:54:48< boucman> I don't think "forbidding any coding" makes much sense, if that's what you're asking. We should only do some bugfixes/polishing if possible and target the "suggested" to be feature complete, but forbidding any code change because the suggested date is passed doesn't make sense.
20100803 22:55:09< gabba> boucman: ok, makes sense
20100803 22:55:23< Upthorn> Crab_: I've been adding persistence stuff to the test scenario, going to start testing MP out today.
20100803 22:55:36< boucman> heh, we hope you'll stay with us after GSoC, so we definitely won't take away your commit rights after pencil down :P
20100803 22:57:01< gabba> boucman: he he, I'll stay around and continue improving the wb. I'm just a bit afraid that with a tough session ahead, progress on the wb will slow down by 10x.
20100803 22:57:35< boucman> tough session ?
20100803 22:57:37< Crab_> Upthorn: great
20100803 22:58:11< gabba> boucman: maybe wrong word in english... the upcoming university "session" will be tough
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20100803 22:58:45< boucman> course ? exam ? semester ?
20100803 22:58:48< Ivanovic> next term/semester?
20100803 22:58:51< silene> Upthorn: persistent variables seem to break replays; the current values are used instead of the old ones
20100803 22:58:55< boucman> not important, I got the idea :)
20100803 22:58:58< gabba> ah yes, term is the right word
20100803 22:59:02< Ivanovic> a course / lecture / project / exam / ...
20100803 22:59:09< gabba> Ivanovic: :D
20100803 22:59:31< Ivanovic> yeah, when it comes to university there are myriads of things that can eat your time alive
20100803 22:59:32< boucman> gabba: once GSoC is over, you are a pure volunteer, it's normal you can't dedicate as much time, we don't expect you to :)
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20100803 22:59:46< Ivanovic> boucman: why are you always saying this?
20100803 23:00:03< boucman> saying what ?
20100803 23:00:04< Ivanovic> make our students believe that they should work the same amounts, then they get a lot more stuff done
20100803 23:00:05< Ivanovic> ;)
20100803 23:00:18< boucman> oops, fooled again :P
20100803 23:00:31< Ivanovic> every year the same mistake, shame on you, boucman
20100803 23:00:46< gabba> Ivanovic and his evil plans :P
20100803 23:00:49< Ivanovic> somehow it really feels intentional by now
20100803 23:01:33< Ivanovic> Upthorn: regarding 1.9.0: IIRC gabba stopped me, there were still too many whiteboard issues left (which made silene add lua directly in leading to some irc discussion which was not taken over to the ML as it was on irc
20100803 23:01:34< boucman> Ivanovic: it's reverse psychology, by not making it mandatory, they feel more compeled to work on it :P
20100803 23:01:47< boucman> look at crab, it worked last year :P
20100803 23:02:04< Ivanovic> boucman: honestly, it does not work as good if you don't see people face to face
20100803 23:02:24< Ivanovic> when they see the "sad puppy"-look they are more inclined to get stuff done, right
20100803 23:02:34< Ivanovic> but IIRC irc is text only atm...
20100803 23:03:00< boucman> °^°
20100803 23:03:13< boucman> not good enough ?
20100803 23:04:02< Ivanovic> yeah, need to improve that one
20100803 23:05:18< gabba> boucman: any wishlist of what you'd really want to see done before GSoC end?  As far as features go I have the reworked arrows, and recall and "dead" actions on my list, and some bugs to fix.
20100803 23:06:07< Ivanovic> time for me to head off in the direction of my bed, n8
20100803 23:06:59< boucman> could you have a look at how hard cumulative probabilities would be ? that's a feature I'd really like to have, but I have no idea how much work it represents
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20100803 23:07:10< gabba> boucman: I'm not sure I can find a good solution to several fake units being stacked, but maybe I can do something for numbers that end up stacked (just add an offset to each one)
20100803 23:07:12< boucman> n8 Ivanovic 
20100803 23:08:08< Upthorn> silene: thanks. I'll need to figure that out.
20100803 23:08:11< boucman> gabba: yes, see what can be done, so we have something workable at the end of GSoC
20100803 23:08:33< boucman> Ivanovic: 1.9.0 is planned after the end of GSoC, isn't it ? 
20100803 23:09:24< gabba> boucman: sure, I'll take a look at probabilities. At least it's not an area likely to break anything except itself.
20100803 23:09:56< boucman> gabba: i'll do some playtesting when i'm back, i might find other missing features but I can't think of anything at this point
20100803 23:10:08< gabba> but I'll depend on Crab for the algorigthms right?
20100803 23:10:21< boucman> gabba: yes, and it probably already has been worked on, ask crab how the AI does it...
20100803 23:13:49< gabba> boucman: also, is y/h/pgup/pgdown and the :wb command an acceptable initial interface :P ? (Maybe at least we can find better hotkeys, but that involves a lenghty discussion about moving existing ones.) Or do we really want to have context menus and a hotkey to turn on the wb? Those are details that can gobble up a lot of time.
20100803 23:14:32< boucman> yes and no :P
20100803 23:15:08< boucman> they are enough for an initial release, but it's important to have wesnoth be playable mouse-only before 1.10
20100803 23:15:50< boucman> if it's not too much job, make the (non-tab) keys configurable through the hotkey system, but if it's complicated I'm ready to drop that for the moment
20100803 23:16:22< gabba> boucman: they're already configurable through the hotkey system ;)
20100803 23:17:08< boucman> good, then let's drop that for the moment
20100803 23:17:20< gabba> ok
20100803 23:19:52< gabba> boucman: I'll go afk, see you later.
20100803 23:20:35< boucman> i'll probably leave soon, i'll catch you tomorow
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