--- Log opened Thu Aug 26 00:00:33 2010
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20100826 01:24:10< fendrin> Shadowmaster: plong
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20100826 03:04:26< CIA-35> grickit * r46008 /trunk/ (changelog data/core/about.cfg data/lua/wml-tags.lua): Adds [chat] WML tag
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20100826 03:04:47< Gambit> Well I hope I did that right.
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20100826 03:41:21< shadowmaster> Ivanovic: did you forget to autogen.sh the release tarball for 1.8.4 or what? http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?p=452574#p452574
20100826 03:41:27< shadowmaster> just checking.
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20100826 03:49:34< shadowmaster> Gambit: congratulations!
20100826 03:49:52< Gambit> shadowmaster: Thanks
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20100826 06:30:44< shadowmaster> argh. I wish "mark forums read" asked me for confirmation. I just clicked on it accidentally, instead of the window's close button
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20100826 06:58:16< shadowmaster> since when do we require autofoo for installing wesnoth? :/
20100826 07:05:43< silene> for installing, we don't
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20100826 07:14:57< fendrin> hi shadowmaster
20100826 07:15:46< shadowmaster> fendrin: hi
20100826 07:16:20< shadowmaster> you were looking for me, right?
20100826 07:16:48< fendrin> shadowmaster: I don't remember.
20100826 07:17:06< fendrin> shadowmaster: I guess it was about promoting gambit to a full forum moderator.
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20100826 09:54:35< Ivanovic> moin
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20100826 10:31:12< norbert_> shadowmaster: is not locked http://forum.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?p=452633#p452633
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20100826 13:01:41< CIA-35> ivanovic * r46010 /branches/1.8/po/wesnoth-units/id.po: updated Indonesian translation
20100826 13:01:41< CIA-35> ivanovic * r46009 /trunk/po/ (5 files in 5 dirs): updated Indonesian translation
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20100826 13:09:43< fendrin> wesbot: seen wesbot?
20100826 13:12:35< Ivanovic> fendrin: i fear that wesbot left together with rhonda
20100826 13:12:40< Ivanovic> no idea why they left though
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20100826 13:17:21< fendrin> New Civilization uses hex fields now.
20100826 13:39:08< happygrue> 1
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20100826 14:43:01< fendrin> Crab_: hi
20100826 14:43:05< Crab_> hi
20100826 14:43:31< fendrin> Crab_: Please tell me again what your gsoc student was enslaved for?
20100826 14:44:05< Crab_> enslaved ?
20100826 14:44:27< fendrin> Crab_: What he had to do.
20100826 14:45:01< Crab_> `persistence support for SP, persistence support for MP, presenting the result to UMC community, having fun\`
20100826 14:45:02< fendrin> Crab_: Was it the persistent game world somthing ?
20100826 14:45:14< Crab_> no, that was the extra part, not mandatory
20100826 14:45:45< Crab_> that persistence game world is one of the ideas I will definitely try to implement, as most pre-reqs are done
20100826 14:45:57< fendrin> I wonder if the feature can be used to introduce Olurf as a third human playable side in the MP version of LoW.
20100826 14:50:43< Crab_> you don't need persistent game worlds for that
20100826 14:50:57< Crab_> unless you want to make it multi-threaded
20100826 14:51:21< Crab_> and, even for that, MP persistence should be enough, with some WML hacks
20100826 14:51:41< Crab_> (e.g., some scenarios for olurf, some for landar and kalenz)
20100826 14:52:15< fendrin> multi_threaded ?
20100826 14:52:32< Crab_> where not all the people play at the same time but can meet in  later scenarios
20100826 14:53:03< Crab_> the basic idea is 'at start, generate a random token, and store all information in persistent variables namespace dependent on that token.'
20100826 14:53:20< fendrin> Crab_: Well, the problem I have to solve is the fact that there is no returning to the lobby is possible during a mp campaign.
20100826 14:53:38< fendrin> Crab_: So it may be difficult to recruit a third player for Olurf.
20100826 14:54:33< Crab_> well, the players can start a new game of scenario 2, in the lobby, waiting for olurf
20100826 14:54:57< Crab_> then, after scenario starts, gold and recall lists for players 1 and 2 will be restored
20100826 14:58:27< fendrin> Crab_: The recall lists are bound to mp lobby logins?
20100826 14:58:59< Crab_> no
20100826 14:59:10< Crab_> but there are persistent variables
20100826 14:59:35< Crab_> so, each player can store persistent variables, say, in namespace ' LOW.342397348 '
20100826 14:59:48< Crab_> where 342397348 is a token
20100826 15:01:04< fendrin> Crab_: Do you think it is a good idea to introduce that new stuff into LoW?
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20100826 15:01:43< Crab_> a good idea. but, I think that it's better to rework some scenarios before that
20100826 15:01:54< Crab_> e.g. the battle for the book, and some others
20100826 15:02:00< Crab_> to be more interesting and to have more story
20100826 15:02:13< Crab_> and to provide more tactical opportunities
20100826 15:02:41< fendrin> Crab_: I am currently working on the rewrite of "Bounty hunters".
20100826 15:02:54< Crab_> good
20100826 15:03:45< fendrin> Do you have a opinion about that scenario?
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20100826 15:09:02< Crab__> fendrin: no. I just want to note that it's better to give the AI less gold but more income (especially 'bursted' income - e.g. every 4 turns x4 the amount)
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20100826 15:10:27< fendrin> Crab__: How can I do that? [modify_side]?
20100826 15:10:44< Crab__> no, just [gold]
20100826 15:11:56< Gambit> Speaking of [gold], is anyone opposed to this: https://gna.org/patch/?1883
20100826 15:11:58< fendrin> Crab__: Yeah, but that is also a little bit unpredictable by the player.
20100826 15:12:05< Gambit> I have to go to class, so please highlight me with opinions.
20100826 15:12:21< Crab__> fendrin: yes, but try it and see if you like it or not
20100826 15:13:02< Crab__> Gambit: I am against ' It also gives gold to all sides when side= is missing. ' part.  more tags than [gold] default to side=1 if side is missing.
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20100826 15:14:45< Crab__> Gambit: it might be a good idea to add a 'standard side filter' which will allow to filter for sides satisfying a given criteria (this is especially important if we'll add diplomacy to wesnoth, later). then, using that filter as a subtag of [gold]
20100826 15:22:35< fendrin> Crab__: Where is the best place to read about the persistence thing?
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20100826 15:41:44< Crab__> http://wiki.wesnoth.org/PersistenceWML
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20100826 17:26:53< zookeeper> what the heck... http://gna.org/bugs/?16538
20100826 17:28:08< zookeeper> anyone who thinks that isn't ridiculous? or even understands what is it he wants exactly...
20100826 17:28:23< zookeeper> "So any comparison operator/s (on any of the particular unit's characteristics) on each line, such as =, >=, <=, <>, and, and in the case of traits contains, and does not contain"
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20100826 17:50:57< Soliton> a case of overspecification with no clue, i'd say.
20100826 17:51:42< Soliton> i guess what he wants is to be able to customize recall cost for specific unit types, preferably with some filters.
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20100826 17:54:19< Talkative> Um... so I've just had a rather surreal experience with Wesnoth image=.  I /wanted/ to have a Grand Summoner shout something at the players, but instead, the image is... a peasant, with a shovel, inside a yellow hex.
20100826 17:54:48< Talkative> Is that a Wesnoth "your image path is bad" fake image, or is it something more sinister?
20100826 17:54:51< Soliton> image not found
20100826 17:55:02< Talkative> Oh, that's all it is?  Sweet.
20100826 17:55:06< Soliton> yep.
20100826 17:55:12< Talkative> Thanks s'much.
20100826 17:55:20< Soliton> no problem.
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20100826 18:48:47< Gambit> Crab__: I would also like to update those tags where it makes sense to affect all sides
20100826 18:49:28< Gambit> It is more normal to deal with all sides when no "side=" is specified than it is to add a new "side=all" or some such thing
20100826 18:49:59< Crab__> yes, I understand that there is a lot of cases where we can deal with all the sides at the same time.
20100826 18:50:20< Crab__> but, there's old behavior of defaulting to side=1 - why break things when we can make it without breaking old code ?
20100826 18:50:44< Crab__> via either side=all, or a full-scale standard side filter (e.g. 'give me enemies of side 1')
20100826 18:51:03< Crab__> (or 'give me all human sides')
20100826 18:51:40< Gambit> It doesn't break old code.
20100826 18:51:59< Gambit> I've included updates for mainline campaigns, and WMLlint can be made to throw errors.
20100826 18:52:06< Gambit> Most of the campaigns were already using side=1
20100826 18:52:11< Gambit> (as they should)
20100826 18:52:38< Crab__> why ? any old code which assumes side=1 will be broken if behavior is changed to assume side=1. and how can wmllint be changed to throw errors when you want to make 'no side= present' normal
20100826 18:52:42< Crab__> ?
20100826 18:53:18< Crab__> I agree that it doesn't break mainline much, and all the places where its used can be found and changed on a per-tag basis.
20100826 18:54:01< Crab__> nevertheless, collect other opinions :)
20100826 18:54:40< Gambit> I don't want to make "no side= present" normal. I want to make it possible, but yeah.
20100826 18:54:52< Gambit> Right now it is not possible to give gold to all sides when the exact number of sides is not known.
20100826 18:54:58< Gambit> well it's possible, but you get errors.
20100826 18:55:06< Gambit> Also there are no tags that use side=all or any similar value.
20100826 18:55:20< Gambit> I went with what fit closest to the way things are currently done.
20100826 18:56:32< Crab__> Gambit: it's possible in lua. there's helper.all_teams
20100826 18:57:38< Soliton> that wmllint can't update or warn about no side key present is indeed an issue.
20100826 18:58:01< Gambit> It can't?
20100826 18:58:16< Soliton> how can it?
20100826 18:58:28< Gambit> I have no idea how wmllint works, I just assumed it'd be able to somehow.
20100826 18:58:54< Soliton> it's a logical issue not a technical one.
20100826 18:58:55< Crab__> Gambit: if your idea is implemented... it can warn 'hey, this tag hasn't got side key present, but this might be ok if you meant 'do for all sides', but it can't fix anything, since it can't figure out your intentions
20100826 18:59:14< Gambit> Crab__: Ah so it *can* throw warnings?
20100826 18:59:30< Soliton> +annoying
20100826 18:59:41< Gambit> This'd also be in the Important Syntax Changes thread, which any UMC author worth anything should read.
20100826 19:00:19< Crab__> Gambit: but, for what gain this ambiguity is to be introduced, when we can simply add 'side=all'  or a SSF ?
20100826 19:01:03< Crab__> why the engine should silently change non-buggy behavior of old code for no particular gain, when we can just add a new way for new usages ?
20100826 19:01:15< Gambit> Well the latter is beyond my current skill. The former wasn't liked on the basis of consistency.
20100826 19:01:31< Gambit> zookeeper: ^
20100826 19:02:10< Crab__> I, personally, think, that a 'side filter' is a way to go, since it'll be very easy to extend it in the future for any extra diplomacy/relationships stuff.
20100826 19:03:38< Crab__> and the end result (+30 gold all teams) might look like  [gold]amount = 30 [teams][/teams] [gold]
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20100826 19:05:05< Crab__> which is easily expanded to any fancy stuff  like '+30 gold for each side that has a particular unit present'    [gold]amount = 30 [teams] [have_unit] some suf [/have_unit] [/teams] [gold]
20100826 19:05:20< Gambit> That would be nice.
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20100826 19:05:54< Gambit> Crab__: You're probably not going to like this either then?: https://gna.org/patch/?1887
20100826 19:05:56< Crab__> (and it opens the way for any alliance-systems gsoc projects, too)
20100826 19:06:50< Crab__> the same. I'm ok with 'This patch allows the tags [remove_shroud] and [place_shroud] to take a comma separated list of sides to remove for',  I disagree with 'It also allows the tags to affect all sides by not including side= . ' , I think that a SSF is a better way.
20100826 19:07:25< Crab__> btw, that standard side filter is not hard to implement, since you don't have to care about speed, if you want to start with just side numbers...
20100826 19:08:16< Crab__> rip the terrain_filter code, do a search-and-replace, remove a lot of stuff, and it's done.
20100826 19:08:38< Gambit> Must also work in lua tags.
20100826 19:08:39< Crab__> and then modify all the tags you want to handle both side= and a SSF
20100826 19:08:48< Gambit> How do the filters work in multiple tags?
20100826 19:09:16< Gambit> Er like [filter] works in [store_unit], but [kill] is it's own filter. The code is just copied into each tag?
20100826 19:09:53< Gambit> Because I'd imagine the [filter_team] tag would be useful in other places.
20100826 19:10:33< Crab__> the tags logic is encapsulated, but each user must handle the results (e.g., in c++, a vector of pointers to teams, in lua, a list of team proxy objects, etc)
20100826 19:11:08< Crab__> to make it work with lua tags, you need to expose that filter to lua (see intf_get_locations for the example of how terrain filter is exposed, it's just 22 lines )
20100826 19:11:59< Crab__> I can try to implement a prototype for SSF for 1.9.1, if you want to, and if someone like zookeeper agrees that  it's ok
20100826 19:13:40< CIA-35> ivanovic * r46012 /branches/1.8/ (4 files in 3 dirs): updated Polish translation
20100826 19:13:42< CIA-35> ivanovic * r46011 /trunk/ (21 files in 20 dirs): updated Polish translation
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20100826 19:21:38< Crab__> hi, silene. what do you think about introducing a new type of 'standard filter', namely 'standard side filter' (SSF) - to be used in tags/code which affect teams , like [gold] amount=40 [filter_team] ally_of_side=1 [/filter_team] [/gold] ?
20100826 19:22:18< silene> i don't mind, but what happens when it is missing?
20100826 19:22:49< Crab__> silene: I think that old behavior is the safest way. use side=, if no side=, assume side=1
20100826 19:23:59< Soliton> is no side == side 1 really consistently used?
20100826 19:24:12< Soliton> at least a warning might be nice.
20100826 19:24:26< silene> Soliton: i think it is; i don't know of an exception
20100826 19:26:29< Soliton> ok, not necessary to warn then though i still think it's not particularly intuitive/readable.
20100826 19:27:53< silene> is anyone able to reproduce https://gna.org/bugs/?16542 ? it works fine for me and i don't understand how it could  even fail since there isn't a single [scroll_to*] action in the whole scenario
20100826 19:28:57< silene> oh, i see that anonymissimus beat me to it
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20100826 19:58:48< zookeeper> silene, so i guess it's fixed now since MOVE_UNIT uses the [move_unit] tag now...
20100826 19:59:34< zookeeper> Crab__, sure, i think a SSF is an ok idea. not a very commonly useful feature of course.
20100826 20:00:58< zookeeper> one thing it should have is a [have_unit] subfilter (the SSF matches for sides which have a unit matching the [have_unit] SUF)
20100826 20:01:55< zookeeper> also being able to easily filter for teams/enemies/allies is good, that's one of the most annoying things to do currently
20100826 20:01:58 * zookeeper goes afk again
20100826 20:07:12< silene> zookeeper: i see, but then it seems there is still a bug in the scenario; the unit that is being moved doesn't exist (hence the confusing error message)
20100826 20:19:41< Gambit> turn() is set to previous_turn_ as the new turn events are firing. If I want to add end turn events is it okay to move that?
20100826 20:19:58< Gambit> I have that backwards
20100826 20:20:03< Gambit> previous_turn_ is set to turn()
20100826 20:24:01< Gambit> well I guess there is one way to find out for sure.
20100826 20:25:48< Gambit> Actually it makes sense where it is.
20100826 20:26:28< zookeeper> silene, right, it looks like alanin might not appear as he should...i'll take a look at it a bit later
20100826 20:40:17< fendrin> Crab__: Around?
20100826 20:40:27< fendrin> I have a little problem with the persistence thing.
20100826 20:40:29< Crab__> fendrin: yes, a bit
20100826 20:40:35< fendrin> Sure.
20100826 20:47:25< Crab__> fendrin: so, what is the issue ?
20100826 20:47:51< fendrin> Crab__: Okay, I want to cut LoW in at least three parts. 
20100826 20:48:29< fendrin> The first one without a human player for Olurf (Since he is only around at 2 and 6).
20100826 20:48:57< fendrin> The second part with a third player for Olurf.
20100826 20:49:04< Gambit> Any objections to the following events?: turn end, turn x end, side turn end, side x turn end, side turn x end, and side x turn y end
20100826 20:49:12< fendrin> And the last part is without Olurf again.
20100826 20:50:44< fendrin> Since the game can't go back to the MP Lobby by wml command and keep it's state I plan to make every part of the campaign a own Instance, loading the recall lists from global variables.
20100826 20:51:32< fendrin> Crab__: First question: That is the only way to do it, right? I don't have an alternative route to make recall lists persistent then storing them in global variables?
20100826 20:51:59< Gambit> Not if it's going to hold up to starting new games.
20100826 20:52:14< Gambit> But if the players are loading saves then regular variables will be kept anyway right?
20100826 20:52:55< Crab__> Gambit: I was thinking of making up a random token at the start of the game
20100826 20:53:57< Crab__> then, at the end of the first part of the game (victory of last scenario without olurf), I'd store recalls lists in the persistent vars,  namespace  mp.low.347823934 where the number is the token
20100826 20:54:19< Crab__> then, at the start of the first scenario of the second part, I'd ask the players for the token
20100826 20:54:50< Crab__> then, if the token is given, I'd load persistent variables from that namespace and so the recall lists would survive
20100826 20:54:56< Gambit> Ah I see. They have to start a new game to get someone to play Olurf
20100826 20:54:57< Crab__> of course, it's possible to remember the 'last' token
20100826 20:55:00< Gambit> fendrin: Yeah globals are the only way
20100826 20:55:29< Crab__> so, if players are just continuing, they just have to visit the lobby and create a game of the 'second episode', no need to enter numbers.
20100826 20:56:17< fendrin> Crab__: Okay, I thought about doing it in a similar way. Second question: How can I hack around the "side 1 turn 1" limitation?
20100826 20:56:46< fendrin> Crab__: I need the units around at start or better prestart to tell my story.
20100826 20:57:09< Gambit> Do those units need to have anything from the last game?
20100826 20:57:27< fendrin> Gambit: The units need to have everything from the last game.
20100826 20:57:29< Gambit> I mean can you put in acting dummies until you can load the globals?
20100826 20:57:44< Gambit> If all they have to do is move the story along.
20100826 20:58:00< Gambit> They could be replaced later with the real units.
20100826 20:58:17< fendrin> Gambit: Well, I could use [move_unit_fake] and similar things, but I don't really like to. That part of wml is just ugly and horrible. 
20100826 20:58:31< Gambit> fendrin: Or spawn real units.
20100826 20:58:33< Gambit> And replace them later.
20100826 20:59:10< Gambit> What I mean is, do the units that are telling the story, have to have persistent information right away?
20100826 21:01:15< fendrin> Hmmm, well. It would be nice if they are at least from the same type. I can't guess what the players are choosing for advancements of Kalenz and Landar.
20100826 21:02:31< Gambit> Could the story wait until side 1 turn 1 then?
20100826 21:02:37< Gambit> The player wouldn't have done anything yet.
20100826 21:02:53< Gambit> It'd be post objectives, but you could redisplay those.
20100826 21:04:14< fendrin> I wish Crab__ would answer that the preload event is also synchronized and can be used for global variable stuff as well.
20100826 21:07:19< silene> fendrin: only stages that are specific to a side can be synchronized; it doesn't make sense for the other ones (since they happen for everyone at once); a possible solution would be to add as many prestart and start stages as they are players, but this is no small work
20100826 21:08:47< fendrin> silene: It seems the global variables feature is pretty much useless for my purposes.
20100826 21:09:17< silene> fendrin: if you can't wait for turn 1, it is
20100826 21:11:13< fendrin> Crab__: Another question is the meaning of the side attribute.
20100826 21:17:44< Crab__> fendrin: it's for 'from what side (computer, that is), should the variable value be taken
20100826 21:18:37< fendrin> Crab__: So it has nothing to do with what sides the player has played previously?
20100826 21:21:07< Gambit> Nope.
20100826 21:21:32< Gambit> It's the computer that currently owns side x
20100826 21:21:34< Crab__> fendrin: you can always encode that in the variables themselves
20100826 21:22:11< fendrin> Crab__: How can I set a variable to be stored on all sides?
20100826 21:22:32< Gambit> Don't have a side=
20100826 21:23:01< Gambit> Hey wait... that sounds familiar. Crab__ :P
20100826 21:26:47< Crab__> :)
20100826 21:26:55< Crab__> side= defaults to 1 :)
20100826 21:27:08< Gambit> Really?
20100826 21:27:40< Crab__> yes
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20100826 21:27:48< Gambit> So you can't set to all?
20100826 21:28:01< Crab__> no
20100826 21:28:04< fendrin> Well, I need to save every sides recall list in an own variable, no matter which of the players chooses to continue what side everything must be fine.
20100826 21:28:32< Gambit> Well I'm going to have to fix that :\
20100826 21:28:37< Gambit> Or at least try to.
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20100826 21:28:51< Gambit> Seriously there are times in MP when you do not know how many sides there are.
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20100826 21:30:27< Gambit> Maybe I should make that an automatically stored array
20100826 21:31:20< Gambit> Then no tags would really need redone.
20100826 21:32:03< Gambit> It'd still be nice, but it wouldn't be a "need".
20100826 21:33:50< silene> it has never been a need: you could just have well have used lua to store all the sides inside a variable
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20100826 22:20:53< CIA-35> grickit * r46013 /trunk/ (changelog src/play_controller.cpp): Added several new events (modeled after new turn, turn x, and side turn) related to ending turns.
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20100826 22:43:24< shadowmaster> sigh. I have an icreasing tendency to say "Locked" without actually locking the thread.
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20100826 23:28:38< boucman> hey all
20100826 23:28:52< fendrin> hi boucman
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--- Log closed Fri Aug 27 00:00:40 2010