--- Log opened Mon Aug 30 00:00:58 2010
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20100830 02:17:59< crimson_penguin> latest svn is incredibly unresponsive for me, in the titlescreen and dialogs from the titlescreen
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20100830 02:52:50< anonymissimus> Upthorn: around ?
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20100830 05:35:44< Upthorn> anonymissimus was looking for me earlier. I wonder if he checks logs.
20100830 05:58:38-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: 145 bugs, 296 feature requests, 13 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
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20100830 08:02:09< CIA-35> zookeeper * r46105 /trunk/data/multiplayer/maps/4p_Ruins_of_Terra-Dwelve.map: Map update to Ruins of Terra-Dwelve from Velensk.
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20100830 08:21:42< zookeeper> silene, ok, using max_value=100 (and value=60) works, but the defense indicators (the one displayed on the hex and the one in the top right when hovering over terrain) don't get updated on-the-fly; i need to actually step into the village to see the 40% defense, and then it shows me 40% _everywhere_.
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20100830 08:27:19< silene> zookeeper: yes, i know; the engine wasn't meant at all for defense abilities, so there is a lot to add on that part
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20100830 08:28:44< zookeeper> silene, i see. are you planning on improving that though?
20100830 08:29:13< silene> if the defense ability is to stay (thatis, not too much of a cpu hog for ai), yes
20100830 08:31:27< zookeeper> okay. i can try to benchmark the difference myself, if that's good enough for you :P
20100830 08:32:24< silene> sure
20100830 08:33:43< zookeeper> i'll just...make a map with a lot of units and use that ability a lot. does it make a difference performance-wise if i make the ability set the defense to what it would have been for that unit anyway?
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20100830 08:51:05< silene> zookeeper: no, no difference; you should also test by not giving the ability at all between 1.9.0 and trunk (there hasn't been much change performance-wise), just to have an idea of the overhead of the code; in other words, if the ability only costs when used, it will up to wml designer to balance its usage; but if it costs even when missing, that's an issue
20100830 08:52:14< zookeeper> oh, bugger, i don't even have 1.9.0 installed :P
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20100830 08:53:05< Rhonda> Just for the record - I'll try to get 1.8.4 ready for Debian/Ubuntu in the next few days, and after that my plans are open for starting to work on 1.9.0
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20100830 08:57:27< zookeeper> silene, ok, it's a lot slower unfortunately :/ without the ability, AI turns took about 400-1200ms on average on my test map, and with the ability it's more like 800-3000ms, with occasional spikes; for example one turn took about 7000ms
20100830 08:57:53< zookeeper> it's a big map with a lot of villages and the AI only gets bats
20100830 09:00:23< zookeeper> the early turns when they're just going and grabbing some villages are about as fast, but when they start fighting it gets slower
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20100830 09:34:31< shadowmaster> anyone's seen noy lately?
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20100830 09:59:12< Rhonda> wesbot: seen noy
20100830 09:59:12< wesbot> Rhonda: The person with the nick noy last spoke 6d 13h ago. 22h ago they disappeared. No more information is available.
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20100830 10:02:24< Ivanovic> moin
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20100830 10:23:34< CIA-35> ivanovic * r46106 /trunk/ (216 files in 33 dirs):
20100830 10:23:35< CIA-35> apply changes from patch #1877
20100830 10:23:35< CIA-35> warning: this is NOT final and tested yet, got to run pofix and the stuff first to test!
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20100830 10:28:36< CIA-35> ivanovic * r46107 /trunk/utils/pofix.py: remove pofix rule introduced in r46091 by Soliton: this rule is not required since both versions already exist in the pot files
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20100830 10:33:59< zookeeper> esr, if i make a game called zxcv, and then give someone else permission to implement my game on a different platform and use the name zxcv and license their implementation as GPL, would that give any other people the same right? that is, would a third party be able to implement it on another platform using the name zxcv without permission from me? i don't think the GPL really has anything
20100830 10:33:59< zookeeper> to do with that, but i'm not totally sure...
20100830 10:35:47< CIA-35> ivanovic * r46108 /trunk/data/core/units/undead/Spirit_Spectre.cfg: add another conversion that pofix applies now
20100830 10:35:47< esr> zookeeper: I don'ty think so either, but much depends on whether you're using copyright, trademark, or patent to exert control The GPL, especiall v3, may interfere with patent control.
20100830 10:37:59< zookeeper> esr, right...my specific case is that i wanted to implement proximity ( http://www.briancable.com/view.php?id=1 ) as a MP scenario. he's basically giving people the right to make noncommercial implementations of his game if credit is given.
20100830 10:38:50< zookeeper> i'm not very happy to have to think about some silly licensing issues for something this insignificant -.-
20100830 10:39:33< zookeeper> but anyway, if i make such a scenario, then the GPL would allow someone else to make a derivative scenario without giving proper credit; would his requirement of credit still apply, or would it be my fault for GPL'ing the scenario?
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20100830 10:41:09< esr> zookeeper: The latter, alas. If you want to enforce giing proper credit you need something like the license on libpng.
20100830 10:42:36< zookeeper> right, ok. however, i take it that it still wouldn't sort of "leak" his IP on the game to outside of wesnoth, since my scenario code would clearly be unusable on any other platform?
20100830 10:43:18< esr> It does seem unlikely.
20100830 10:44:56< Ivanovic> esr: do you know a way to add "automatic threading" in pofix?
20100830 10:45:03< Ivanovic> cf the feature request i wrote and assigned to you
20100830 10:45:27< zookeeper> ok, so there's no realistic risk for him to give me permission to do such a scenario? that is, the worst that can happen is that someone makes a derivative wesnoth scenario without giving credit and i'll have to ask someone to delete it :p
20100830 10:46:08< esr> Ivanovic: There was a good suggestion for doing it from the Unix command line in the backscroll a couple days back. I don't remember the details, though.
20100830 10:46:12< zookeeper> s/to give/in giving
20100830 10:46:40< Soliton> Ivanovic: xargs -P
20100830 10:47:11< Ivanovic> esr: personally i somehow prefer having this directly in pofix itself if possible
20100830 10:47:36< Ivanovic> since it would not require using anything more for anyone not knowing xargs and the likes too good
20100830 10:48:05< esr> Ivanovic: That would be much more difficult. I suggest you wire the xargs invocation into a makefile somewhere and use it.
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20100830 11:42:05< Ivanovic> wesbot: seen chusslove
20100830 11:42:06< wesbot> Ivanovic: Sorry, I don't know of chusslove.
20100830 11:42:52< Ivanovic> wesbot: seen caslav_ilic
20100830 11:42:53< wesbot> Ivanovic: Sorry, I don't know of caslav_ilic.
20100830 11:44:52< CIA-35> ivanovic * r46109 /branches/1.8/po/ (wesnoth/fi.po wesnoth/nl.po wesnoth-multiplayer/nl.po): several changes to some 1.8 po files to allow them to merge nicely in trunk with the dash and apostroph conversion
20100830 11:49:24< Ivanovic> hurray to all that run svn up today!
20100830 11:49:32< Ivanovic> will take a *long* time for the po files
20100830 11:49:39< Ivanovic> though you should way about 30mins more
20100830 11:52:07< Ivanovic> and yeah, for the stuff i am currently doing a svn-git checkout would have been nice since i would not have to wait for a "real" upload to finish before continuing my work
20100830 11:55:16< CIA-35> ivanovic * r46110 /trunk/po/ (1301 files in 26 dirs):
20100830 11:55:16< CIA-35> apply latest pofix.py on files copied right from branches/1.8 (all langs beside sr)
20100830 11:55:16< CIA-35> reason: this way a "clear" run of pofix for conversion of dash, apostroph and all those things can happen, no "old" fuzzies remaining (at least in theory)
20100830 11:55:16< CIA-35> TODO:
20100830 11:55:16< CIA-35> run a pot-update to merge those po files against the latest pot files
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20100830 12:09:57< CIA-35> ivanovic * r46111 /trunk/ (1263 files in 27 dirs):
20100830 12:09:57< CIA-35> pot-update (as announced in r46110)
20100830 12:09:57< CIA-35> regenerated doc files
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20100830 14:14:55< Rhonda> hrmpf
20100830 14:15:46< zookeeper> Gambit, you made a mess and removed half of the events: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/index.php?title=EventWML&diff=38057&oldid=38056
20100830 14:16:33< Gambit> Wow
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20100830 14:16:49< Gambit> Can that be undone? :s
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20100830 14:17:54< zookeeper> just copy the code from an earlier rev and paste it in a new one? or i can undo that edit completely and you can add in your stuff back properly
20100830 14:18:04< zookeeper> whichever you prefer
20100830 14:18:29< zookeeper> i'm not sure if the undo feature is available for regular users
20100830 14:18:42< Gambit> Yeah it lets me undo them.
20100830 14:18:46< zookeeper> if it is then that seems like the easiest way to selectively un...ok
20100830 14:18:46< Gambit> I guess because they're mine?
20100830 14:19:11 * zookeeper shrugs
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20100830 14:41:49< fabi> hello :-)
20100830 14:42:06-!- fabi is now known as fendrin
20100830 14:49:20< Crab_> hi, fendrin
20100830 14:50:39< fendrin> hi Crab_
20100830 15:09:13< zookeeper> gah. i tried to make a weapon special which would cause the enemy to suffer a decrease to its CtH whenever the attack hits, and when that failed i tried another one which would lower their swings by one when the attack hits. neither can be done, it seems.
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20100830 15:37:47< fendrin> Ivanovic: After fixing a bug that is not mentioned in the bugtracker, shall I fill a bug report if I note the fix in the changelog?
20100830 15:38:34< Ivanovic> no need to
20100830 15:44:09< fendrin> wesbot: seen Upth
20100830 15:44:09< wesbot> fendrin: Queried user Upth is currently in this channel.
20100830 15:44:32< fendrin> Upth: Are you upthorn, crab's gsoc student?
20100830 15:45:38< fendrin> esr: Please tell wmllint to be happy with a side=global attribute value pair.
20100830 15:46:08< fendrin> wesbot: seen upthorn
20100830 15:46:08< wesbot> fendrin: The person with the nick Upthorn last spoke 10h 10m ago. 6h 6m ago they left with the message: Ping timeout: 240 seconds
20100830 15:53:32-!- shadowm_laptop [ignacio@wesnoth/developer/shadowmaster] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100830 16:01:26< Upth> fendrin: yes, why?
20100830 16:01:46< fendrin> Upth: I have found a usecase in mainline.
20100830 16:02:02< fendrin> Upth: Do you agree that the thing can go into a mainline campaign?
20100830 16:02:14< Upth> Yes, of course.
20100830 16:03:10< fendrin> Upth: Okay, I have done a basic implementation. Using the variables was straight forward. Problematic was to recode the campaign around the "only synced events" limitation.
20100830 16:03:23< fendrin> There are still some questions left.
20100830 16:03:33< Upth> fendrin: the "only synced events" only applies to multiplayer
20100830 16:04:16< fendrin> Upth: Right, I don't need them in singleplayer, so everything I am saying is multiplayer related.
20100830 16:05:12< CIA-35> esr * r46112 /trunk/data/core/macros/utils.cfg: Add a needed wmlsope directive.
20100830 16:06:01< fendrin> Upth: The problem I want to solve is: The Legend of Wesmere is a two player campaign. But after scenario 7 there is another ally permanently around that can be played by a human as well.
20100830 16:06:32< fendrin> Upth: I don't have the possibility to pause a game, return it to the lobby, search for a new player and continue.
20100830 16:07:56< fendrin> So I cut the campaign in chapters, that are in fact independent campaigns which load from the previous chapter out of the LoW namespace.
20100830 16:08:05< Upth> the only easy solution I can see is to break it into two campaigns, yes
20100830 16:09:06< fendrin> Upth: I think it is a good idea to save the variables with the recall lists to both players of chapter one.
20100830 16:09:41< Upth> that makes sense
20100830 16:09:44< fendrin> Upth: But how can I handle the reloading in chapter 2 correctly?
20100830 16:10:16< fendrin> Upth: It would be fine enough if any of the 3 players playing chapter 2 has a set of recall lists around.
20100830 16:10:45< shadowmaster> what's the difference between the release announcement thread for 1.9.0, and the TS thread on 1.9.0 bugs and feedback?
20100830 16:11:10-!- _jbx_ [~jbailey@12.190.80.225] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100830 16:11:40< Upth> I feel that I should modify the behavior of get_global_variable side=global
20100830 16:12:16< Upth> so that if the active player's variable is null it will then check other players
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20100830 16:12:30< Upth> but right now that doesn't happen, so you'd have to do it manually
20100830 16:14:00< shadowmaster> okay, I think I got it: the announcement thread is filled with performance complaints and the TS thread consists of other bugs and some filler silliness.
20100830 16:16:27< Upth> fendrin: something like http://wesnoth.pastebin.com/kBHJupbX
20100830 16:19:45-!- Greywhind [~Greywhind@fw-34-19.cs.brown.edu] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100830 16:20:15< fendrin> Upth: equals=$empty?
20100830 16:20:35< CIA-35> ivanovic * r46113 /trunk/utils/pofix.py:
20100830 16:20:35< CIA-35> document workaround for the "missing" feature documented in this FR:
20100830 16:20:35< CIA-35> bug #16526: pofix.py: add support for >1 thread
20100830 16:21:39< fendrin> Upth: If the global variable is not defined is that handled like if the global variable is empty?
20100830 16:21:59< fendrin> Upth: Is the local variable undefined or empty in both cases?
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20100830 16:34:29< Upth> fendrin: yes, an undefined global variable will show up the same as an empty defined one
20100830 16:34:55< Upth> and, I have to leave now for classes
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20100830 16:59:03< crimson_penguin> it seems like 1.9 is the perfect time for a switch to OpenGL
20100830 16:59:09< crimson_penguin> then it'll become 2.0
20100830 17:04:32< anonymissimus> cmake MSVC compiling doesn't work for me in latest trunk
20100830 17:06:10< anonymissimus> http://wesnoth.pastebin.com/SxSkE4cq
20100830 17:06:51< anonymissimus> already updated the external folder and regenerated the sln
20100830 17:10:49< Ivanovic> anonymissimus: wait for crab_, he might/should be able to help you
20100830 17:15:21< CIA-35> zookeeper * r46114 /trunk/data/campaigns/Eastern_Invasion/ (5 files in 3 dirs):
20100830 17:15:22< CIA-35> Increased Owaec's hitpoints from 36/48/64 to 39/52/68, lvl1 morningstar from 8-2
20100830 17:15:22< CIA-35> to 9-2, lvl2 sword from 9-3 to 7-4, lvl3 sword from 12-3 to 10-4, lvl3
20100830 17:15:22< CIA-35> morningstar from 16-2 to 18-2 and gave the morningstar a new weapon special on
20100830 17:15:22< CIA-35> lvl2 and lvl3.
20100830 17:17:51< zookeeper> everyone always hates owaec, so hopefully he'll manage to be at least a bit more useful now
20100830 17:20:05< CIA-35> zookeeper * r46115 /trunk/data/campaigns/Eastern_Invasion/utils/abilities.cfg: Added a missing [filter_base_value] for the shock special.
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20100830 17:44:29< fendrin> What is wrong with "F5"?
20100830 17:45:24< AI0867> ?
20100830 17:45:30-!- fangism1 [~davidfang@gilbert.achronix.com] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100830 17:47:19< AI0867> it worked the last time I used it
20100830 17:47:26< AI0867> which is saturday
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20100830 17:58:38-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: 145 bugs, 295 feature requests, 12 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
20100830 18:08:06< fendrin> AI0867: Does it work on current trunk?
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20100830 18:14:44< eleazar> can someone see if they can replicate this terrain glitch?
20100830 18:14:45< eleazar> http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?p=453437#p453437
20100830 18:15:00< eleazar> any version will do
20100830 18:15:29< eleazar> i'm confused. My work copy was missing an image that replicated this bug, however the trunk and the 1.9 release aren't missing the image.
20100830 18:16:38< eleazar> the image in question is terrain/swamp/water-long-A01-se.png
20100830 18:28:22< zookeeper> eleazar, no, it works fine for me
20100830 18:30:16< zookeeper> i _think_ i spotted a similar (if not the same) glitch some days ago, but it seems it has disappeared since
20100830 18:33:07< zookeeper> but then again i might have just imagined it
20100830 18:35:25< zookeeper> anyway, the cave<->water transition is hard-edged; i guess the same kind of fade transition as in dirt<->water should be used there, but isn't. the colour difference between the bank and the cave tile is very glaring for example with the earthy cave.
20100830 18:38:51< crimson_penguin> I can't seem to find a hotkey setting for either copy or paste
20100830 18:39:56< crimson_penguin> does anyone else experience extreme unresponsiveness on the titlescreen with latest svn? it only seems to happen sometimes; it'll start out slow, then be fast again, then get slow...
20100830 18:40:42< crimson_penguin> and by "extreme", I mean about 0.5fps registering of mouse movement events
20100830 18:44:47< fendrin> eleazar: It also works here.
20100830 18:46:42-!- boucman [~rosen@wesnoth/developer/boucman] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100830 18:47:37< crimson_penguin> the tooltips on the titlescreen have an opaque background for me sometimes, and then other times they have other tips behind them
20100830 18:53:49-!- Espreon|Wii [47af4857@wesnoth/developer/espreon] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100830 18:55:17< Espreon|Wii> fendrin: You forgot to move the new abilities in UtBS; would you please move them?
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20100830 19:03:52< crimson_penguin> ok, this new titlescreen is really buggy
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20100830 19:26:08< zookeeper> would be a good time to get rid of the horrible logo swipe animation and the "show titlescreen animation" advanced preference, too.
20100830 19:27:31-!- silene [~plouf@wesnoth/developer/silene] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100830 19:29:07< crimson_penguin> agreed
20100830 19:29:21< crimson_penguin> I got a crash with the tooltips on an assert(widget)
20100830 19:29:23< silene> fendrin: add it there: https://gna.org/bugs/index.php?16578
20100830 19:29:42< silene> crimson_penguin: same thing ^
20100830 19:35:29< crimson_penguin> silene: it was in the MP dialog, is that still part of the titlescreen?
20100830 19:38:24< silene> crimson_penguin: the one where you select the method?
20100830 19:38:41< crimson_penguin> yeah, the first one you get from clicking "Multiplayer"
20100830 19:39:28< silene> then yes, it probably related to the titlescreen changes
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20100830 20:10:16< crimson_penguin> I can commit to branches/1.8, right?
20100830 20:10:44< silene> sure
20100830 20:10:51< zookeeper> Sapient, if i have a weapon special with a [filter_opponent] [not] [filter_wml] hitpoints=$this_unit.hitpoints [/filter_wml] [/not] [/filter_opponent] determining whether it's active or not, what's the intended/correct behaviour in the damage calculations? i expected that it would result in damage calculations acting so that the special becomes active when the opponent takes damage, but
20100830 20:10:51< zookeeper> that's not how it works.
20100830 20:11:36< Sapient> zookeeper, I'm not certain that $this_unit works in AbilitiesWML
20100830 20:11:59< zookeeper> Sapient, ok, that'd make sense considering my observations
20100830 20:12:41-!- Crab_ [crab@wesnoth/developer/crab] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100830 20:13:14< Sapient> depending on the ability, it could cause a real performance issue
20100830 20:13:43< Sapient> probably visibility checks are the most frequent
20100830 20:14:42< Sapient> so a [filter_wml] in a visibility-related ability might cause slowdowns
20100830 20:15:01< alink> (in)visibility has its own cache, but it's often cleared.
20100830 20:15:23< zookeeper> eleazar, grass<->dirt has a pretty rough transition under the sparse reeds that cross the hex boundary...it's mostly visible with the dry dirt though.
20100830 20:15:27< Sapient> yes, thanks for that cache optimization. regardless of the potential performance issues, I think it should be supported
20100830 20:15:39< alink> skirmisher ability may slow pathfinding when there is a lot of ZoC
20100830 20:15:43< Sapient> no one got around to adding it I guess
20100830 20:16:04< CIA-35> crimson_penguin * r46116 /branches/1.8/src/clipboard.cpp: Fixed bug #16576 by applying the submitted patch with slight modification. This changes the Mac implementation of the clipboard to use the Pasteboard Manager, rather than the deprecated Scrap Manager.
20100830 20:16:33< alink> also there is the new [defense] ability thing
20100830 20:16:34< Sapient> probably because there is a lot of config usage in unit_abilities that would need to be converted to vconfig usage
20100830 20:16:55< Sapient> then after that it would be a simple matter to add a lazy loading scoped unit
20100830 20:17:49< CIA-35> crimson_penguin * r46117 /trunk/src/clipboard.cpp: Fixed bug #16576 by applying the submitted patch with slight modification. This changes the Mac implementation of the clipboard to use the Pasteboard Manager, rather than the deprecated Scrap Manager.
20100830 20:29:00< CIA-35> ivanovic * r46118 /trunk/src/lua/: add some svn:ignore entries
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20100830 20:42:44< mordante> servus
20100830 20:43:22< Crab_> hi, mordante
20100830 20:43:28< mordante> hi Crab_
20100830 20:43:49< CIA-35> ivanovic * r46119 /website/start/1.8/ (index.zh_CN.html po/zh_CN.po): updated Chinese (Simplified) announcement translation
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20100830 20:48:18< CIA-35> ivanovic * r46120 /trunk/ (6 files in 5 dirs): updated Chinese (Simplified) translation
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20100830 20:48:22< CIA-35> ivanovic * r46121 /branches/1.8/ (6 files in 5 dirs): updated Chinese (Simplified) translation
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20100830 21:02:40< CIA-35> esr * r46122 /trunk/data/ (7 files in 5 dirs): wmllint/wmlscope fixes.
20100830 21:03:52< esr> alink: Please run wmlscope and fix the resulting warning.
20100830 21:09:40< alink> esr: ok will do
20100830 21:11:15< alink> esr: with what parameters? or just "wmlscope" ?
20100830 21:11:56< esr> alink: "make wmlscope" will assemble the correct params.
20100830 21:12:48< esr> Please try to get in the habit of doing that after modifying the terrain macros, glitches there are difficult for me to fix.
20100830 21:13:11< alink> this is about terrain macros ?
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20100830 21:24:13< mordante> esr, around?
20100830 21:24:15< esr> alink: Yes, it looks like you were the last to change the file that's throwing the warning.
20100830 21:24:27< esr> mordante: Yes, what's up?
20100830 21:25:09< eleazar> zookeeper: the cave bank currently has an out-of-date version of the dirt bank.
20100830 21:25:28< eleazar> once i update the dirt bank, i'll roll it down to the cave
20100830 21:25:39< mordante> esr, I like to change all source lines in data/hardwired/tips.cfg
20100830 21:25:52< eleazar> dirt bank reflection needs a little more work
20100830 21:25:55-!- loonycyborg_ is now known as loonycyborg
20100830 21:25:58< mordante> all lines with source should be put between and
20100830 21:26:21< esr> mordante: OK, so how am I involved?
20100830 21:26:26< mordante> what's the best way to do that, the changes should also be blindly applied to the translations
20100830 21:26:51< zookeeper> eleazar, ok, great
20100830 21:27:13< eleazar> zookeeper: also thanks for checking the swamp
20100830 21:27:30< mordante> esr, ^^^
20100830 21:35:06< alink> mordante: can't we just do ="" + _"blabla" + ""? or that doesn't work ?
20100830 21:35:45< alink> unless we want to let translators controls that?
20100830 21:39:26< mordante> alink, that would be possible, but personally I like translators to have control about how it looks
20100830 21:39:32< Gambit> I think there was talk about removing the logo's wipe effect entirely.
20100830 21:39:49< alink> mordante: agreed, that's better
20100830 21:39:56< mordante> Gambit, that has nothing to do with this
20100830 21:40:19< Gambit> No you're right. That was completely unrelated.
20100830 21:40:28< Gambit> I was going to find the link to the forum thread and then poke you.
20100830 21:40:28< mordante> and I don't want the effect removed, I spend a considerable amount of time on it so don't want it now simply removed
20100830 21:40:43< Gambit> Oh, nevermind then.
20100830 21:40:46 * eleazar waves a banner, "death to the logo wipe!!!"
20100830 21:41:10< mordante> eleazar, it can already be disabled so I see no reason to remove it
20100830 21:41:25< eleazar> i see no reason to keep it
20100830 21:42:00< eleazar> it has no dramatic or aestetic value since the player has already been stareing at the logo during loading
20100830 21:42:15< mordante> eleazar, I do since I spend quite a bit of work on it getting it to work with gui2
20100830 21:43:08< eleazar> sorry about that, but that's not really a good reason to have a feature and an option
20100830 21:43:31< eleazar> as frustrating as wasted work can be
20100830 21:43:34< silene> mordante: so, just because you spent lot of time on something crappy means it is no longer crap? let's be serious here
20100830 21:46:02< eleazar> https://gna.org/bugs/index.php?15987
20100830 21:46:18< Ivanovic> mordante: blind applying to translations is evil
20100830 21:46:24< Ivanovic> changes *will* get lost there
20100830 21:46:30 * alink consider that unimportant, better focus on gui2
20100830 21:46:31< eleazar> mordante: you have it now so the wipe doesn't make you wait?
20100830 21:46:57< mordante> eleazar, yes like I said in the report I would work on option 3
20100830 21:47:12< eleazar> i hadn't read that till just now
20100830 21:47:29< eleazar> that invalidates most of my objection to the wipe
20100830 21:48:09< mordante> silene, except that there was a FR/bug report about it where I stated my intention so if nobody gives feedback there I consider remarks now too late
20100830 21:48:30< alink> esr: where do I run "make wmlscope" ? sry wml-tools noob here :-)
20100830 21:48:45< esr> cd data/tools
20100830 21:48:54< mordante> Ivanovic, so what's in your opinion the best solution
20100830 21:48:58< mordante> brb
20100830 21:49:09< Ivanovic> mordante: just change the sources and don't touch the translations
20100830 21:49:22< Ivanovic> have the translators review the strings and add the markup when doing their cleanuo
20100830 21:49:35< alink> esr: then I must do something wrong "Nothing to be done for `wmlscope'."
20100830 21:49:41< Ivanovic> the problem is that translators often continue working with the files they got lying around
20100830 21:50:03< Ivanovic> they tend to not redownload files (and send them in beforehand) nearly as often as would be sane
20100830 21:50:28< silene> mordante: you have committed a huge of pile of crap (11 regressions!!!) and you want me to let it go just because you said you would work on it?!
20100830 21:51:34< esr> alink: Sorry, I goofed. "make" or "make unresolved" will do it. (The former runs wmllint as well as wmlscope and is a good idea to do frequently.)
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20100830 21:52:17< alink> silene: from what I saw the old code was crappy and the new one is much better, regressions are there just because it's new
20100830 21:52:21< mordante> Ivanovic, ok
20100830 21:52:31-!- Aethaeryn [~Michael@wesnoth/umc-dev/developer/aethaeryn] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100830 21:52:58< eleazar> esr: i've been meaning to ask you, if i change the path to an image does one of your WML programs deal with that? and if so, what should i do about it?
20100830 21:53:01< silene> alink: crappy, perhaps, but at least it worked
20100830 21:53:34< silene> alink: deliberately committing something that doesn't work is a fault
20100830 21:53:38< mordante> silene, that's bullshit I can't reproduce quite some of the issues here
20100830 21:54:13< mordante> the logo shows up here quite fast and I can click on other items without any problem
20100830 21:54:36-!- fangism2 [~davidfang@gilbert.achronix.com] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100830 21:54:39< mordante> the arrow keys are the most hidden feature of Wesnoth
20100830 21:55:26< alink> esr:ok thanks that worked, I now see the warnings
20100830 21:55:54-!- fangism [~davidfang@gilbert.achronix.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out]
20100830 21:57:22< Crab_> silene: how standard side filter should be exposed to lua code ? (the C++ interface of the side_filter is similar to the terrain_filter ).
20100830 21:57:23< Crab_> Should it be standalone functions in wesnoth table ? or .matches(lua_table_of_wml_filter_config) function in the team proxy table (plus a pure lua helper to get a list of all teams matching a filter, suitable in cycles, like helper.all_teams ) ? or something else ?
20100830 21:58:00-!- grzywacz [~grzywacz@wesnoth/developer/grzywacz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20100830 21:58:50< anonymissimus> Crab_: cmake MSVC compiling doesn't work for me in latest trunk
20100830 21:58:52< anonymissimus> http://wesnoth.pastebin.com/SxSkE4cq
20100830 21:58:54< anonymissimus> already updated the external folder and regenerated the sln
20100830 21:59:07< silene> Crab_: the usual way is to provide two functions: wesnoth.match_side which takes a side number and a config and returns a boolean, wesnoth.get_sides which takes a config and returns a list
20100830 21:59:36< Sapient> wow, heated code discussion in here
20100830 21:59:36< anonymissimus> (never got the standalone project file work however, cmake mostly does)
20100830 21:59:40< Crab_> silene: ok
20100830 22:00:43< Crab_> anonymissimus: it is unable to find sdl network libraries on the link path. it might be related to billynux's network code changes. I'll take a look tomorrow.
20100830 22:01:08< Crab_> anonymissimus: meanwhile, you can add sdl network libraries to the link path and to the list of linked libraries, by hand.
20100830 22:01:24< alink> esr: are you sure that it's a valid warning, wmlscope seems to remove the parenthesis which create the comma problem
20100830 22:01:32< Crab_> anonymissimus: or figure out why it doesn't use ana for compilation (msvc can compile ana-enabled wesnoth)
20100830 22:01:47< alink> {GENERIC_SINGLEHEX_PLFB (Ww,Wwf,Wwr) 100 -1000 base ANIMATION_15 water/coast}
20100830 22:02:07< alink> GENERIC_SINGLEHEX_PLFB(Ww,Wwf,Wwr, 100, -1000, base, ANIMATION_15, water/coast) with signature (TERRAIN=name, PROB=numeric, LAYER=numeric, FLAG=name, BUILDER=name, IMAGESTEM=name) # Check for obsolete WML, broken references, consistency.
20100830 22:02:09< esr> alink: wmlscope doesn't remove anything. It never modifies the files it looks at.
20100830 22:02:19< alink> I mean ignore them
20100830 22:02:32< esr> Oh, yes, it ignores them.
20100830 22:03:05< alink> how can make it stop doing that (assuming that wesnoth do it correctly)
20100830 22:03:49< alink> eleazar: water/coast rule works correctly with (Ww,Wwf,Wwr) ?
20100830 22:04:23< alink> mmh sry I can probably check that myseld
20100830 22:04:27< alink> *myself
20100830 22:04:38-!- Crab_ [crab@wesnoth/developer/crab] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
20100830 22:04:43< eleazar> alink: i believe so, did you change something?
20100830 22:04:55-!- silene [~plouf@wesnoth/developer/silene] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
20100830 22:05:21< alink> maybe when introducing GENERIC_SINGLEHEX_PLFB if there is a WML macro problem, but just checking
20100830 22:05:43< eleazar> my compile is not very fresh
20100830 22:06:48< esr> alink: I think if you change that formal arg to TERRAIN_PATTERN (or some name with the same declaration type) all should be well.
20100830 22:07:02< alink> eleazar: I just need to see the coast animation under Ww,Wwf,Wwr, so all is fine
20100830 22:07:18< alink> ntw hard to see it move under Wwf
20100830 22:07:25< alink> s/ntw/btw
20100830 22:07:55< eleazar> yeah Wwf is more opaque that i want
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20100830 22:08:52< alink> esr : formal arg ? I don't follow you
20100830 22:09:19< esr> alink: Yjat is, the name of the arg in the macro definition.
20100830 22:10:07< alink> the name can't be arbitrary ?
20100830 22:10:39< alink> I start to wonder if other macros don't simply use double parenthesis (()) since they nest more
20100830 22:12:28< alink> eleazar: my main point was, if the animation is not visible, just use static image
20100830 22:12:48< alink> (for perfomance)
20100830 22:14:10< eleazar> It would be nice if animations wasn't all or nothing
20100830 22:14:49< eleazar> alink: there are several animations that do make things look better, but often wouldn't be missed
20100830 22:15:19< alink> we sometimes mentioned a "animation weight" key
20100830 22:15:53< eleazar> i would certainly use something like that
20100830 22:16:04< alink> eleazar: btw, I never got your opinion about reducing the speed(or rate) of water
20100830 22:16:16< alink> Do you think it can still looks good ?
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20100830 22:16:25< eleazar> oh, i must have missed that question
20100830 22:16:36< alink> reducing the mean rate, some frames may still be shorter
20100830 22:16:41< eleazar> alink: i'll take a look
20100830 22:17:01< eleazar> and imagine....
20100830 22:17:18< alink> eleazar: fyi the perf cost should depend linearly of the anim rate
20100830 22:17:44< alink> we use 100ms now I think, if a calm water used something slower, that could help a lot
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20100830 22:18:28< eleazar> is this all or nothing?
20100830 22:18:45< eleazar> i.e. can the ocean easily be made slower while leaving the coast as it is?
20100830 22:19:14< alink> yes just use different anim macro, there are already several one IIRC
20100830 22:19:49< fendrin> mordante: "F5" is broken in the main menu.
20100830 22:20:17< alink> for example see builder.cfg : ANIMATION_04_140 which is probably used by flags
20100830 22:20:30< alink> 4 frames at 140 ms
20100830 22:21:03< eleazar> alink i think the ocean (Wo and Wot) might work just as well if they took ~50% longer per fram
20100830 22:21:21< alink> eleazar: good news that should help a lot :-)
20100830 22:21:33< eleazar> since their movements are bigger, it seems much more active
20100830 22:25:42< alink> if you want to see what helps use :fps and :debug, you see the framerate and the mean hexes redraw by frame
20100830 22:27:29< alink> sry, since commands don't work in editor, use --fps --debug
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20100830 22:30:16< alink> mmmh that doesn't help yet, probably because of the transitions still updating adjacent :-(
20100830 22:30:46< alink> anyway when that part will be optimized too (as main hexes were), it should help since there will be less things to redraw
20100830 22:33:13< alink> eleazar: also for transitions where we see less details, perhaps lowering framerate or number of different images there
20100830 22:33:43< alink> (number of different images uses memory, not cpu)
20100830 22:33:45< eleazar> the transitions are supposed to mesh with the animation of the main image
20100830 22:33:56< alink> ah ok
20100830 22:34:36< alink> they are probably not synchronized, though, since they are in different rules
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20100830 22:35:47< alink> in fact they can't be synchronized, because some transitions touches 2 hexes with main images having random shift
20100830 22:36:09< eleazar> none of the water transitions are 2-sided
20100830 22:36:36< alink> oh, I see, probably better, already a lot of water images :-)
20100830 22:36:37< eleazar> they all have just the basic, simple 6 sides
20100830 22:36:49< eleazar> Yup :)
20100830 22:38:44< alink> mmh then they can be synchronized, maybe already the case, if the rule was made right
20100830 22:39:36< eleazar> i can't really tell since i still got the non-animating transition version
20100830 22:40:20< alink> ah no random use rule index, not just location. So even when being careful about the location, the random seed will be different
20100830 22:40:28< mordante> fendrin, is this documented somewhere?
20100830 22:41:00< Gambit> mordante: It lets us refresh the cache without restarting the entire game.
20100830 22:41:24< mordante> Gambit, ok thanks, still like to know whether it's documented somewhere
20100830 22:41:35< eleazar> alink: so transitions animations aren't synchronized to their base?
20100830 22:41:57< alink> Gambit: note that restarting to titlescreen is much faster now, so maybe less needed ?
20100830 22:42:14< Gambit> Not really.
20100830 22:42:16< CIA-35> mordante * r46123 /trunk/src/gui/dialogs/title_screen.cpp: Allow markup in the tooltip source.
20100830 22:42:22< CIA-35> mordante * r46124 /trunk/data/hardwired/tips.cfg: Make the tips source italic again.
20100830 22:42:24< CIA-35> mordante * r46125 /trunk/src/gui/dialogs/title_screen.cpp: Update wiki comment.
20100830 22:42:39< alink> eleazar: no I don't see how they could be with current c++ and WML code
20100830 22:42:51< Gambit> It's the best friend of anyone who does a lot of art or WML
20100830 22:42:57< Gambit> Also restarting to titlescreen is now *slower*
20100830 22:43:10< alink> Gambit: really ?
20100830 22:43:13< Gambit> As one must wait until the logo is done.
20100830 22:43:20< Gambit> Unless that was fixed already.
20100830 22:43:21< mordante> Gambit, that's not needed
20100830 22:43:28< Gambit> 0_0
20100830 22:43:35 * eleazar would love to be able to reload the terrain WML without quitting the editor
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20100830 22:43:41< mordante> if it crashes for you I need more info, works properly for me
20100830 22:43:57< Gambit> mordante: backtrace in bug report
20100830 22:44:03< alink> Gambit: there is an option about the logo
20100830 22:44:19< Gambit> alink: Okay so we can optionally have the game crash. ^_^
20100830 22:44:25< mordante> Gambit, that's not a way to reproduce it no idea what system you're on etc etc
20100830 22:44:37< Gambit> (Thanks though I will flip that option.)
20100830 22:45:16< Gambit> Also mordante the artists love that feature. Turning it off is just asking for an angry mob. /me wishes he could poke TSI for a testimonial.
20100830 22:45:43< Gambit> s/turning it off/removing it/
20100830 22:45:46< mordante> Gambit, and like I said in comment #4 piling several bugs in one report is a hell to track
20100830 22:46:10< mordante> and I'm not even going to try to do so
20100830 22:46:23< eleazar> alink: if transitions aren't synchronized then a lot of the water animation stuff needs to be rethought, since i've been assuming that
20100830 22:46:49< alink> Gambit: I was not really "removed", just never documented anywhere, the code simply now follow the doc ;)
20100830 22:46:56< boucman> hmm, I must admit I hadn't thought of that when randomizing animations...
20100830 22:47:42< alink> boucman: eleazar: we can solve it, I think, and it may even help performance
20100830 22:48:18< eleazar> help performance to synchronize, or to get rid of the transitions that don't really help if it's not synchronized?
20100830 22:48:23< boucman> alink: how would you do that ? having randomization being only based on location, so all anims at the same location start at the same time would be a start,
20100830 22:49:08< alink> If we only use location for random seed that means that a water tiles and other water transition on the same hex can be synchronized too, lowering the number of updates
20100830 22:50:17< eleazar> transitions need to be synched to the hex that they come *from*
20100830 22:50:31< alink> ah yes indeed
20100830 22:50:36< eleazar> or it doesn't matter
20100830 22:50:48< boucman> hmm, we need to cheeck the macros to see if that's the case, but I think we have it backward...
20100830 22:51:06< alink> and that prevent to synchronise 2 transitions on the same dry hex :-(
20100830 22:51:45< eleazar> Of course, some of these are double-- sided transitions i'm not entirely sure which transition goes with which hex sometmes
20100830 22:51:46< Gambit> alink: Winking sarcastically as our UMC authors' productivity is cut in half is rather uncouth IMO... :(
20100830 22:51:47< alink> boucman: yes probably backward
20100830 22:52:51< alink> Gambit: I am always trying to help WML writer's speed. I was just joking how easily c++ feature can be lost without noticing it
20100830 22:53:25< Talkative> I have a (probably) very simple WML question for anybody who's not otherwise occupied doing important things. Heard this was the place.
20100830 22:53:51< alink> eleazar: is it really visible when transition are not synchronized? after all full water hexes are not synchronized with each other
20100830 22:53:57< mordante> alink, well actually I agree with you it now works as documented
20100830 22:54:07< eleazar> alink: that'
20100830 22:54:25< eleazar> alink: that's why they have special blending transitions between them
20100830 22:54:26< mordante> alink, but I guess the proper solution would be to document and reimplement the feature
20100830 22:54:27< Gambit> Talkative: I'll try to answer :)
20100830 22:54:37< eleazar> brb
20100830 22:54:47< Talkative> Gambit: Thanks s'much. Q: Where can I find documentation on the difference between firing events with name=moveto and firing events with name=turn refresh? I have some simple code that works only with the former.
20100830 22:55:08< Gambit> Talkative: Can you pastebin me the code?
20100830 22:55:32< Gambit> Talkative: documentation here: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/ReferenceWML ; and more specifically here: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/EventWML
20100830 22:56:15< alink> eleazar: if it was possible to use the same trick that would help performance of water transitions sharing the same hex (if we synchronize them)
20100830 22:59:41< mordante> I'm off night
20100830 23:00:16< alink> gn mordante
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20100830 23:01:01< alink> eleazar, boucman: other possibility: we use anim with regular tempo but use the random to start at a different frame. So, still looks varied and random, but update at the same time, which should be unnoticeable. That should helps a lot (I will test it now)
20100830 23:01:50< boucman> sounds good too,
20100830 23:05:25< eleazar> i'm back
20100830 23:05:43< eleazar> i don't understand this comment: alink: eleazar: if it was possible to use the same trick that would help performance of water transitions sharing the same hex (if we synchronize them)
20100830 23:06:51< alink> using the "special blending" so synchronization between adjacent hexes will not be important
20100830 23:08:53< eleazar> the only synchronization that i'm interested in (for appearances sake) is making sure that a transition matches it's base tile. If i can't have that i may be able to make things work still, and probably with less images -- but it won't look quite as good
20100830 23:09:22< eleazar> by "matches" i mean that the transition and base are both doing frame 3 at the same time
20100830 23:10:23< eleazar> BTW regularizing the tempo sounds fine
20100830 23:10:31< alink> I understand, it may still be possible, but not sure how much it cost in framerate (which is a current problem with water anim)
20100830 23:11:15< alink> anyway I must study this synchro thing more, I can win some fps in some cases but not in others
20100830 23:12:03< eleazar> alink: don't forget we don't even have any of those pretty waves washing up to the shore animations yet ;)
20100830 23:12:03< alink> seems to depend of water repartition, possibly linked to the current unoptimized state of water transitions
20100830 23:13:12< alink> hehe
20100830 23:13:30< alink> but I must go now, afk
20100830 23:13:38< eleazar> alink: boucman: note line 722 of terrain graphics.cfg
20100830 23:13:48< eleazar> those are the most expendible animations
20100830 23:14:48< eleazar> can be commented to test the speed of partially activated map animations
20100830 23:15:11< boucman> eleazar: we are still early in the 1.9.x, we might comment them just before 1.9.1 to not kill perf, but hopefully we will optimize enough...
20100830 23:16:19< eleazar> drat, that comment points out some of the wrong lines...
20100830 23:17:25< Ivanovic> personally i'd love to have a way to turn animations partially off for the pandora port
20100830 23:18:03< Ivanovic> that is: keep the waving flags and windmills but the "real" terrain stuff like the tiny waves and the moving torches, that you can't really see on the tiny high res screen anyway, turned off
20100830 23:18:33< Ivanovic> yes, on the pandora you do not see that the water is moving because it is just too tiny for the screen
20100830 23:18:34< boucman> should we have a LOW_CPU to complete LOW_MEM ?
20100830 23:18:57< Ivanovic> boucman: more like some "remove stuff that makes no sense on really high dpi values"
20100830 23:19:21< Ivanovic> not sure how many dpi those are, but it is a lot
20100830 23:19:40< Ivanovic> 800x480 on 4.3"
20100830 23:22:51< Ivanovic> somewhere above 200dpi
20100830 23:25:15< Ivanovic> the problem is using the cpu for something that simply is not visible enough in this specific use case
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20100830 23:29:52< eleazar> Ivanovic: you need totally new graphics
20100830 23:30:19< Ivanovic> eleazar: huh?
20100830 23:31:08< eleazar> there's a ton of stuff in wesnoth terrain that doesn't make sense for your tiny screen
20100830 23:31:15< boucman> eleazar: how possible would it be to "script" the creation of pandora specific images for high dpi/small screen
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20100830 23:31:24< CIA-35> zookeeper * r46126 /trunk/data/multiplayer/maps/4p_Ruins_of_Terra-Dwelve.map: Map update to Ruins of Terra-Dwelve from Velensk, the correct version this time...
20100830 23:31:43< Ivanovic> eleazar: in general it is perfectly fine having the normal images, they look great on the screen
20100830 23:31:57< eleazar> boucman: i imagine the simplest way would be to make a different terrain-grapincs.cfg
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20100830 23:32:12< Ivanovic> and if you get *really* close to the screen you do see changes there
20100830 23:32:27< Ivanovic> it is just blue on blue without really much changing, so it is easily missed
20100830 23:32:41< Ivanovic> and using cpu power for this on a mobile device is, uhm, not good
20100830 23:32:51< Ivanovic> (since cpu power = battery time)
20100830 23:35:01< eleazar> Ivanovic: if you can bearly see the torch animations, i expect many of the alternate terrain images aren't noticable
20100830 23:35:15< Ivanovic> have not checked the torches yet
20100830 23:35:40< Ivanovic> in general i'd like to stay as close as possible to the normal version without many changes at all
20100830 23:37:58< eleazar> well this will help anyway....
20100830 23:38:19< CIA-35> eleazar * r46127 /trunk/data/core/terrain-graphics.cfg:
20100830 23:38:19< CIA-35> instructions on how to comment and uncomment some alternate water animation
20100830 23:38:19< CIA-35> lines to improve performance. Search for '>>>'. Of course this might be a
20100830 23:38:19< CIA-35> maintancance nightmare so don't be suprized if the non-animated version has some
20100830 23:38:19< CIA-35> glitches later on.
20100830 23:42:24< anonymissimus> I've managed to compile in MSVC with the standalone project file :)
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20100830 23:54:05< anonymissimus> but only trunk, and the debugger crashes at start of HttT
20100830 23:54:08< anonymissimus> http://wesnoth.pastebin.com/wTx2DD7J
20100830 23:55:00< anonymissimus> stack traceback above so one can have a look
20100830 23:55:20< anonymissimus> something with iterators maybe
20100830 23:58:38-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: 146 bugs, 296 feature requests, 12 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
--- Log closed Tue Aug 31 00:00:05 2010