--- Log opened Fri Sep 10 00:00:33 2010
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20100910 00:20:30< Simons_Mith> Espron: You still around?
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20100910 00:22:39< Simons_Mith> Perhaps I should have spelt him right...
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20100910 00:26:13< Simons_Mith> Espreon: I'm updating patch #1926 with the updated tips, but bear in mind there's already some changes waiting. This is because tips.cfg is in the wesnoth textdomain, which I had already processed.
20100910 00:27:01< Simons_Mith> Will add more info in the patch itself
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20100910 00:40:01< Espreon> Simons_Mith: All right.
20100910 00:52:07< Espreon> Simons_Mith: Oh, I noticed that you created another "wesnoth-tb" domain in pofix; don't do something like this again, for pofix will just choose the last one that appears and ignore the other ones.
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20100910 00:53:06< Simons_Mith> Oh, OK.
20100910 00:53:19< Simons_Mith> I thought it ignored the textdomains...
20100910 00:53:54< Espreon> Well, it appears that they have some sort of actual involvement in the process after all.
20100910 01:01:08< Simons_Mith> ... I'm going to create a dummy set of cfgs, pots, pos and a pofix file of my own, and get to the bottom of some of this odd behaviour. :-/
20100910 01:02:08< Espreon> Oh? What's the problem?
20100910 01:03:03< Simons_Mith> I find it's a bit of a black box. What does it do with overlapping strings? Things like that.
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20100910 01:03:15< Espreon> What exactly do you mean?
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20100910 01:05:13< Simons_Mith> Well, for a start, why should having two wesnoth-tb domains break things? Why doesn't it apply the first lot of changes as batch a, then apply the second lot on top as batch b?
20100910 01:05:31< Espreon> IDK, ask esr.
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20100910 01:07:05< esr> Simons_Mith: That's an artifact of the way Python dictionaries behave.  The change liast is just a big Python dict literal; if you try to give iot two members with the same key hilarity will ensue.
20100910 01:08:21< Simons_Mith> Asking someone else doesn't help /me/ become familiar with it, that's the trouble. No doubt I'll drop him a couple of queries. [esr] aha! See? I don't speak python, so I didn't know that. 
20100910 01:08:55< CIA-35> alink * r46346 /trunk/src/terrain.cpp: 
20100910 01:08:55< CIA-35> Remove broken hardcoded void value for dummy terrain image.
20100910 01:08:55< CIA-35> Shoudn't be used and if used, code should show them as missing image and output error.
20100910 01:09:05< CIA-35> alink * r46347 /trunk/src/minimap.cpp: 
20100910 01:09:05< CIA-35> Silence warning for missing terrain image in minimap code.
20100910 01:09:05< CIA-35> Because MP lobby renders a lot of minimaps using untrusted data, I believe it's safer to avoid any risk of error spam.
20100910 01:09:26< Simons_Mith> Feeding it some files and watching precisely what it does to them would teach me a lot...
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20100910 01:24:36< Simons_Mith> Anyway I only dropped in to give a quick update. [esr] thanks for the dictionary tip, BTW.
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20100910 03:51:07< CIA-35> alink * r46348 /trunk/ (3 files in 2 dirs): 
20100910 03:51:07< CIA-35> Allow time_area to define local time of day on map border (fix for bug #16508)
20100910 03:51:07< CIA-35> Some maps probably need update to use the feature. Edited test-scenario as an example.
20100910 03:51:20< CIA-35> alink * r46349 /trunk/src/ (tod_manager.cpp tod_manager.hpp): Fix bug #16584 (Time of day doesn't change in time area)
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20100910 04:57:41-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: 155 bugs, 296 feature requests, 18 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
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20100910 09:04:05< CIA-35> beetlenaut * r46350 /trunk/data/campaigns/Dead_Water/ (14 files in 2 dirs): New map: png format instead of jpg.
20100910 09:04:48< beetlenaut> It's also much prettier.
20100910 09:07:41< Espreon> beetlenaut: Great, now add the stuff to the xcf.
20100910 09:08:06< beetlenaut> where do I upload the xcf?
20100910 09:08:45< Espreon> No no, you add the stuff to the existing xcf that stores all of the maps.
20100910 09:08:54< Espreon> It's in the resources branch.
20100910 09:10:11< beetlenaut> Oh, I see.
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20100910 09:18:08< zookeeper> probably best to put it in cartography/ instead of campaigns/
20100910 09:18:18< zookeeper> s/cartography/cartography-tools
20100910 09:19:11< beetlenaut> zookeeper: The update xcf you mean?
20100910 09:19:33< zookeeper> yes, any bigmap xcf
20100910 09:23:52< zookeeper> but then again i guess you can put it in campaigns/ too. i guess it doesn't really matter.
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20100910 09:28:17< CIA-35> espreon * r46351 /trunk/data/campaigns/Dead_Water/images/Background_Map.png: Ran umcpropfix.
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20100910 09:47:39< Ivanovic> moin
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20100910 09:52:11< CIA-35> ivanovic * r46352 /trunk/po/wesnoth-dw/ (53 files): apply pofix.py on trunkg
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20100910 09:56:35< CIA-35> ivanovic * r46353 /trunk/ (3 files in 3 dirs): updated Vietnamese translation
20100910 09:56:37< CIA-35> ivanovic * r46354 /branches/1.8/ (3 files in 3 dirs): updated Vietnamese translation
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20100910 13:06:17< noy> rusty: hey
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20100910 14:49:20< gabba> bonjour
20100910 14:54:23< boucman> salut gabba, quoi de neuf ?
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20100910 15:08:05< Soliton> gabba: know about a crash when an undo moves a unit back to where there is already a planned unit?
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20100910 15:09:50< Ivanovic> zookeeper: have you had a look at the tutorial patch?
20100910 15:10:01< Ivanovic> as in: tried to apply it and checked if things still work?
20100910 15:12:41< Soliton> gabba: know about a crash when an undo moves a unit back to where there is already a planned unit?
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20100910 15:12:45< Soliton> hrm.
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20100910 15:22:07< CIA-35> esr * r46355 /trunk/data/campaigns/Two_Brothers/ (5 files in 2 dirs): Minor fixes to dates and typography.
20100910 15:22:22< zookeeper> Ivanovic, no, but i'll do it this weekend
20100910 15:23:56< Ivanovic> okay, thanks
20100910 15:24:39< Ivanovic> if possible i'd like to see all the typography related changes (apostrophs and whatnot) added soon so that i can release sometime on sunday
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20100910 15:58:44< Soliton> would be cool if gabba can checkout that wb mode crash i tried to tell him about before the release.
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20100910 16:35:08< grzywacz> http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/6100/a_journey_across_the_main_stream_.php
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20100910 17:17:21< fendrin> hello
20100910 17:22:47< Gambit> hi fendrin
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20100910 18:39:25< anonymissimus> fendrin: people keep complaining about shamans going to Landar
20100910 18:39:45< anonymissimus> is it ok if I fix it ? since it's "your" campaign
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20100910 18:48:42< anonymissimus> btw I remember someone critisizing you for clustering into events :P
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20100910 19:58:20< CIA-35> eleazar * r46356 /trunk/data/core/images/terrain/sand/ (21 files): fixed glitches in the sand/desert transitions.
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20100910 20:07:20< anonymissimus> silene: is the order of execution of events of the same type deterministic, following the order in the scenario ?
20100910 20:08:03< silene> anonymissimus: from a code point of view yes; but i don't know if it was ever publicized
20100910 20:09:08< anonymissimus> "from a code point of view" - whose code ?
20100910 20:09:19< anonymissimus> the scenario's ?
20100910 20:10:21< silene> no, the engine
20100910 20:10:50< silene> the engine is coded in such a way that the order is as you describe it
20100910 20:10:54< anonymissimus> "It is perfectly possible (and, in fact, useful) to have multiple events with the same predefined name and thus the same trigger condition. However, it is not defined what order such events will fire in, so you need to code so the order will not matter. "
20100910 20:11:08< anonymissimus> says the wiki
20100910 20:16:03< silene> so, to sum it up, it is currently deterministic, but not guaranteed to stay so in the future
20100910 20:18:37< anonymissimus> ok so we should not rely on it, btu instead use the same event, or ensure the order of execution otherwise in case that it matters, thanks
20100910 20:22:47< CIA-35> eleazar * r46357 / (143 files in 4 dirs): Slightly tweaked dirt colors and new, smooth dirt transitions.
20100910 20:48:40< fendrin> anonymissimus: clustering into events?
20100910 20:49:12< anonymissimus> in costly revenge, you unstore the shamans before you move some of them to lamdar
20100910 20:49:23< anonymissimus> both are victory events
20100910 20:49:57< anonymissimus> I've just asked silene above, the oder of execution of events of the same type is not guaranteed for the future
20100910 20:50:16< anonymissimus> so you need to use the same event or make custom events
20100910 20:50:55< anonymissimus> and fire them from the same (that's what I do is I want to "cluster" code tha has logically nothing to do with the other one into separate events)
20100910 20:52:01< anonymissimus> I've just also noticed that in norther battle, most loyal units are ai-controlled, if that's intentional then it's pretty bad
20100910 20:57:20< anonymissimus> do you want to fix it yourself ? people complain about this bug: http://gna.org/bugs/index.php?16552
20100910 20:59:52< fendrin> anonymissimus: Currently, the execution of the events is still in order if I didn't miss the change.
20100910 21:00:10< fendrin> anonymissimus: So the bug must be in another location.
20100910 21:00:37< fendrin> anonymissimus: There is another thread on the forum in which someone developed a fixing patch for the problem.
20100910 21:00:54< anonymissimus> if the order of execution is currently deterministic, it's even more a bug
20100910 21:01:19< anonymissimus> since you placed unstoring of shamans above changing side of the "steal wearers"
20100910 21:01:53< fendrin> anonymissimus: I don't have much time right now, please fix it for me.
20100910 21:02:01< anonymissimus> ok :)
20100910 21:02:34< anonymissimus> is it intentional that loyal units except anduilas are on side 2 in northern battle ?
20100910 21:03:32< fendrin> anonymissimus: Hmmm, that is a good question.
20100910 21:04:00< anonymissimus> the ai tends to sacrifice loyal so I'll be pissed off by that
20100910 21:04:47< fendrin> anonymissimus: I argued that some of them are followers of landar which are loyal to kalenz because they are loyal to landar.
20100910 21:05:44< fendrin> anonymissimus: I think the code wants to keep them out of the filter.
20100910 21:05:50< anonymissimus> you misunderstood, side 2 is uradredia, allied with Kalenz
20100910 21:06:32< anonymissimus> the filter keeps only anduilas with Kalenz
20100910 21:07:04< fendrin> anonymissimus: I see.
20100910 21:07:10< fendrin> anonymissimus: The story dictates that.
20100910 21:08:39< fendrin> anonymissimus: After Kalenz returned home and gave up the commandment there is only Andulias still left with him because andulias is the only loyal unit that home is in fact the home village of kalenz.
20100910 21:09:53< anonymissimus> hm ok, but I would expect that one or more of the loyals died, and then I would need to replay the scenario
20100910 21:10:23< anonymissimus> or I would adapt my strategy and rush all enemies quickly to make my allie not sacrifice the loyals
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20100910 21:12:34< anonymissimus> although since it's the last but one battle is doesn't matter that much
20100910 21:13:30< anonymissimus> so I would maybe accept the loss, from the player point of view, and continue, if it's only 1 or 2 of the loyals that dies
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20100910 21:50:20< anonymissimus> fendrin: and do not use the names "unit" and "second_unit" as names for variables which are not the automatically stored variables unit and second_unit
20100910 21:50:42< anonymissimus> that omits errors messages (but doesn't seem to harm otherwise)
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20100910 22:02:43< CIA-35> ai0867 * r46358 /trunk/src/serialization/preprocessor.cpp: Change preprocessor_data::token_desc::type to an enum
20100910 22:02:55< CIA-35> ai0867 * r46359 /trunk/src/editor/editor_common.hpp: Remove an unneeded include
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20100910 22:06:07< CIA-35> anonymissimus * r46360 /branches/1.8/data/campaigns/Legend_of_Wesmere/scenarios/19_Costly_Revenge.cfg: 
20100910 22:06:07< CIA-35> Combined victory events into a single one with correct order (fix for bug
20100910 22:06:07< CIA-35> #16552). Corrected inappropriate use of "unit" as the name of a looping integer
20100910 22:06:07< CIA-35> omitting error messages. Removed redundant victory_when_enemies_defeated=no.
20100910 22:14:23< zookeeper> anonymissimus, silene, i know the execution of events in the order they're defined isn't guaranteed to stay, but it's sometimes very useful so i'm really hoping it doesn't ever change
20100910 22:14:55< silene> zookeeper: then you better change the documentation
20100910 22:14:56< zookeeper> and i'd rather like if we just called it defined behaviour
20100910 22:15:02< anonymissimus> often you can use similar events for it, e.g. last breath and die
20100910 22:16:15< zookeeper> silene, if you say it's ok for me to do so then sure, i'll go change it right away..
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20100910 22:18:19< silene> zookeeper: yes, it's ok,but you should describe how deterministic it is; in particular you should describe the behavior of dynamic events
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20100910 22:20:14< zookeeper> silene, i presume that dynamic events will always trigger after the scenario-level ones, and in the order they've been added?
20100910 22:21:52< silene> more or less; if several of them are at once, they are added in reverse order
20100910 22:21:58< silene> i think
20100910 22:22:48< janebot> Subscriber Alert: Forum reporting has been down for about twelve hours because Gambit is an idiot, and someone put a backslash in their thread title. It is fixed now, and I apologize for any inconvenience. I am reminded of: http://xkcd.com/327/
20100910 22:22:56< zookeeper> right. seems complicated to explain, but i'll see what i can do
20100910 22:23:16< zookeeper> silene, btw i have a few variable-related bugs i discovered yesterday:
20100910 22:23:31< zookeeper> {VARIABLE foo 0.5}
20100910 22:23:32< zookeeper> {DEBUG_MSG "$foo"}
20100910 22:23:32< zookeeper> the message always reads "0" instead of "0.5"
20100910 22:23:46< zookeeper> also {VARIABLE_OP foo divide 100.0} crashes to desktop (just immediate shutdown, nothing in stderr, no crash report from windows) whereas {VARIABLE_OP foo divide 100.001} works (with a slight inaccuracy, of course)
20100910 22:24:16< zookeeper> i'm downloading the latest win build to check if it still happens there, my previous build is 6 days old
20100910 22:24:40< silene> strange bugs
20100910 22:25:19< CIA-35> anonymissimus * r46361 /trunk/data/campaigns/Legend_of_Wesmere/scenarios/19_Costly_Revenge.cfg: ported r46360 from 1.8
20100910 22:28:47< anonymissimus> there has been some rounding bug recently, wasn't it fixed by you silene ?
20100910 22:29:24< silene> yes, but there is a gap between a rounding failure and a whole crash
20100910 22:32:08< silene> zookeeper: i can't reproduce the bug (both display and computation are fine), and there hasn't been any significant changes in this part of the code lately (the rounding fixes were three weeks ago)
20100910 22:33:19< zookeeper> silene, huh. i can't reproduce either anymore. i'll try it again using the previous build...
20100910 22:35:09< zookeeper> eh. won't reproduce with a simple testcase...but it very much seemed to work exactly like that in the scenario i was testing
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20100910 22:49:05< zookeeper> silene, ok, now it reproduces. could you look at core/macros/terrain-utils.cfg:93 ?
20100910 22:49:37< zookeeper> if you change that to 100.0 and then insert [event] name=start {SCATTER_EMBELLISHMENTS G* ^Efm 5} [/event] to the test scenario, it crashes
20100910 22:50:00< zookeeper> now, i might be doing wrong, but it seems like a bug to me anyway
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20100910 22:56:50< Gambit> janebot: !subscribe-channel 2;w
20100910 22:56:50< janebot> Updated your subscription
20100910 22:57:41-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: 154 bugs, 296 feature requests, 18 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
20100910 22:58:35< zookeeper> silene, so, i can't actually reproduce the first bug at all (i guess i just did something else wrong before), but the second one seems like a real issue
20100910 22:58:49< zookeeper> seems like it only happens when you divide an integer
20100910 23:00:03< silene> the bug appears when you divide by an integer written as a floating-point number
20100910 23:00:47< silene> (and the numerator is an integer too)
20100910 23:00:50< zookeeper> yeah
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20100910 23:01:41< silene> this confuses the engine, which thinks you want to do an integer division, but since the divisor is not really an integer, the engine eventually divides by zero and it crashes
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20100910 23:03:46< silene> i can prevent the crash; but that won't really fix the code; the semantic of variable operations has always been dubious (the engine trying to guess whether you want an integer or a floating-point operation) and my changes have exacerbated the issue
20100910 23:07:50< silene> one way to give it a proper semantic would be to say that the operation is always a floating-point divide, and it's up to the wml designers to put a "round" if they want an integer
20100910 23:08:06< silene> not sure how many wml it would break
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20100910 23:11:15< zookeeper> hrhm
20100910 23:14:03< zookeeper> silene, sounds like it might break quite a lot, but i'm not sure.
20100910 23:14:29 * zookeeper goes afk for a bit
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20100910 23:16:33< silene> zookeeper: not sure, it would only break scenarios which expect 4/3 to be actually equal to 1, if they only care about it being less than 2, it will still work; i guess i will give it a try and see how bad it goes; if it happens to be too broken, i will revert it
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20100910 23:30:04< CIA-35> silene * r46362 /trunk/ (changelog src/config.cpp src/game_events.cpp): 
20100910 23:30:04< CIA-35> Modified [set_variable] "divide" so that it always performs a floating-point divide.
20100910 23:30:04< CIA-35> Modified other operations along the way since their semantic does not depend on integer/floating-point choice.
20100910 23:30:04< CIA-35> Added an implicit demotion from floating-point values to integers.
20100910 23:30:05< CIA-35> silene * r46363 /trunk/data/core/macros/terrain-utils.cfg: Cleaned constant.
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20100910 23:54:40< anonymissimus> zookeeper: there are 10 files in mainline data using divide=
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20100910 23:55:34< anonymissimus> in my addon I surprisingly never used it, probably because of the mentioned dubious behavior
20100910 23:55:54< anonymissimus> I used multiply + round if needed
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--- Log closed Sat Sep 11 00:00:39 2010