--- Log opened Mon Sep 20 00:00:00 2010
20100920 00:00:04< esr> johndh: Still there?  I have rebuilt Wesnoth and the minor-race descriptions you mention are in fact still missing.
20100920 00:00:16< zookeeper> yes, a lot of them were never written
20100920 00:00:18< johndh> esr: Yeah, I'm here
20100920 00:00:42< esr> OK.  Where can I find these descriptions to commit?
20100920 00:01:02< johndh> I'll get the link in a minute.
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20100920 00:03:10< zookeeper> johndh, for what it's worth, i'd agree with TSI that the mermen shouldn't be described as being able to stay underwater indefinitely
20100920 00:03:50< johndh> http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=31505
20100920 00:03:52< esr> zookeeper: You don't think they have gills?
20100920 00:04:38< zookeeper> esr, i do, but IMO they ought to be something which only help them stay underwater longer. if they could stay underwater indefinitely then it'd be kinda hand to justify them not getting submerge, which would wreck their balance completely.
20100920 00:04:56< johndh> I think TSI's pressure idea made more sense.
20100920 00:05:00< zookeeper> (even considering how balance trumps realism and all that)
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20100920 00:07:10< zookeeper> johndh, ok, that sounds better than perfect water breathing, not sure if it's better or worse than "my" idea
20100920 00:09:19< esr> johndh: Your prose is generally good, but you have a minor problems with comma placement that I'm having to fix.
20100920 00:10:00< esr> I just merged the bat and goblin entries.
20100920 00:10:29< zookeeper> ok, a few other random comments: for bats it might make sense to refer to taming them. currently it just says they're "kept", whereas i'd imagine that necromancers (or orcs; i think there's a few places where orcs recruit bats) actually have to actively tame or otherwise take control of them
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20100920 00:11:42< johndh> esr: awesome :)
20100920 00:11:46< esr> zookeeper: Adding appropriate parenthetical.
20100920 00:12:10< johndh> Commas aren't always my strong point, though.
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20100920 00:13:13< johndh> zookeeper: I'm not sure if necromancers would tame them or mind-control them... so I figured "keep" was a good vague term for both.
20100920 00:13:15< zookeeper> ogres seem ok. in mechanical, the passage "the term "mechanical" describes a created artifact of an intelligent being" sounds a bit odd. shouldn't that be "an artifact created by an intelligent being"?
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20100920 00:13:31< johndh> Perhaps
20100920 00:13:55< zookeeper> johndh, yeah, it's not really said anywhere whether they tame or mind-control or what
20100920 00:13:57< Crab_> zookeeper: maybe it's s/of/or ?
20100920 00:14:20< zookeeper> Crab_, err, i don't think "a created artifact OR an intelligent being" sounds right either :P
20100920 00:14:21< esr> johndh: You have a tendency to use commas as glue for run-on sentences.  Think about the speech rhythm of the sentence and, when you feel a desire to use one, think about whether a sentence break or punctuation indicating a longer  pause would be better.
20100920 00:14:43< johndh> That's what I was doing at first, and got unending flak for it. lol
20100920 00:14:52< Crab_> zookeeper: ok :) it makes sense if parsed as  'a created (artifact OR an intelligent being)' :)
20100920 00:15:00< esr> johndh: Semicoloans and pause dasjes are your friends in this context.
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20100920 00:15:14< esr> And typos are my enemy :-)
20100920 00:16:27< zookeeper> johndh, also should we be ignoring what darker_dreams and co have posted there? it's a bit confusing there when several people keep posting variations of the same stuff
20100920 00:16:47< johndh> Yeah, his are just critiques.  All my current versions should be in the OP.
20100920 00:17:11< johndh> and he's doing a wose description, but they're hashing out the lore in another thread
20100920 00:17:19< zookeeper> oh, ok
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20100920 00:27:12< CIA-35> esr * r46615 /trunk/data/core/units.cfg: Minor race descriiptions by johndh.
20100920 00:27:24< johndh> Woo! :D
20100920 00:27:59< esr> johndh: Merge to units.cfg is done.  I suppose the second and subsequent 'graphs on the last two should go to the wki.  You can do that.
20100920 00:29:08< johndh> esr: certainly, no problem.
20100920 00:29:32< esr> johndh: Also, I see no continuity issues.  You're missing one interesting bit of lore about the nagas that I haven't published... 
20100920 00:29:52< zookeeper> johndh, how do you want to appear in the credits?
20100920 00:30:05< johndh> How is it usually?  Name and then handle?
20100920 00:30:10< johndh> If so, John Harvey
20100920 00:30:39< zookeeper> realname only, handle only, or "realname (handle)", whichever you prefer
20100920 00:30:55< johndh> John Harvey (johndh) is fine :)
20100920 00:31:09< zookeeper> ok, i'll add you to miscellaneous contributors...
20100920 00:31:21< esr> In the remembered historical past, they worshiped some very nasty Cthulhoid gods.  Most of them no longer do - they have a cult of the noons, now -  but they fear the return of the Dark Ones.
20100920 00:31:44< johndh> I thought about mentioning something about the bloodthirsty god from Temple of the Nagas...
20100920 00:31:44< esr> s/noons/moons/
20100920 00:32:32< esr> Actually thsat shouldn't go in the main description.  It's good material for the RacialSecrets page, though.
20100920 00:32:42< johndh> Kinda what I was thinking
20100920 00:32:54< johndh> I have various ideas for the nagas that don't really go "out in public"
20100920 00:33:15< johndh> which I tried to vaguely allude to
20100920 00:33:35< esr> Hold thoser thoughts.  I have a sketch for a Naga-vcentered campaign.
20100920 00:33:58< esr> They have a social structure a lot like Bedoin. 
20100920 00:34:12< esr> Bedouins, I mean.
20100920 00:34:58< zookeeper> a cult of the noons would be pretty neat too
20100920 00:34:59< CIA-35> zookeeper * r46616 /trunk/data/core/about.cfg: Added johndh to "Miscellaneous Contributors".
20100920 00:35:19< johndh> I think you'll have to forgive me for having no idea what Bedouin society is like.
20100920 00:36:25< johndh> but regarding a cult of the moons, isn't that kinda overlapping with saurians?
20100920 00:36:31< johndh> They're into astrology and all that.
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20100920 00:37:21< esr> Hm, somebody gave the Saurians a moon cult?  Musty've happened while I wasn't looking.  OK. :-)
20100920 00:38:12< johndh> Well there was a lot of talk of astrology.  Not necessarily a cult per se.
20100920 00:39:14< johndh> Somebody even invented advanced saurian mathematical notation.
20100920 00:39:27< johndh> b/c they use it to track planets, stars, etc.
20100920 00:41:55< CIA-35> soliton * r46617 /trunk/data/campaigns/ (2 files in 2 dirs): fixed some misplaced spaces in whispers
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20100920 00:44:53< AI0867> esr: the descriptions you just committed contain the word irdya
20100920 00:45:31< AI0867> I thought we wanted to keep it out of the game for now
20100920 00:45:43< johndh> Oops.  I thought I took that out.
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20100920 00:46:37< esr> AI0867: It's supposed to be rate but not unknown.  I went ahead and used it because that makes sense in conjuncytion with the reference to advanced technology.
20100920 00:46:48< esr> s/rate/rare/
20100920 00:47:12< esr> Not jour doing, johndh.  I rewoded a bit.
20100920 00:47:31< johndh> Oh okay, cool.
20100920 00:49:41< zookeeper> Soliton, why is it better to have the space in the preceding string?
20100920 00:50:14< Soliton> ( because whispers look odd otherwise.)
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20100920 00:50:25< zookeeper> oh. ok. i never checked ;)
20100920 00:51:58< johndh> Are the nagas and merfolk descriptions being committed?  Do I need to work on them a bit more?
20100920 00:52:13< esr> I just committed them.
20100920 00:52:37< johndh> Awesome :)
20100920 00:53:04< zookeeper> esr, the mention of irdya seems completely unnecessary there...for one, there's no advanced mechanicals in mainline
20100920 00:53:35< johndh> I think the only ones that should still be blank are wolves, woses, gryphons, and saurians.  Saurians have a long description in the wiki, but I think it needs to be cleaned up a bit and I have no idea how much is canon.
20100920 00:53:45< esr> Hm.  That's a point.
20100920 00:54:26< esr> zookeeper: Given that, I won't object if you remove it.  I guess I was thinking ahead to stuff like Thunderstone.
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20100920 00:59:13< zookeeper> esr, ok, i think i will
20100920 00:59:59< esr> johndh: Wait, I'll look at the Saurians definition.
20100920 01:00:03< zookeeper> i guess i'll remove the "or advanced technology" bit too
20100920 01:01:38< CIA-35> zookeeper * r46618 /trunk/data/core/units.cfg: Removed mention of Irdya and advanced technology from the mechanical race description.
20100920 01:03:49< esr> johndh: I'd never seen any of that Saurian lore before, but there wasn't enough written up about them previously to contradict it.  None of it is referenced in mainline, so it isn't core canon, but it doesn't contrdict core canon either.
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20100920 01:06:05< johndh> esr: Okay.  The only thing that seemed glaringly wrong to me was referring to the drakes as their allies, as that's been established to be MP only.  AFAIK they're never encountered anywhere near each other in a campaign.
20100920 01:06:40< esr> That will change in Wings of Victory :-)
20100920 01:07:54< johndh> Isn't that the name of the new Starcraft game? >.>
20100920 01:08:08< johndh> Wait... no, that's Wings of Liberty.
20100920 01:08:53< esr> Wings of Victory is a campaign fendrin and I have been working on, chock full of Drake backstory and biology.
20100920 01:12:01< johndh> Cool
20100920 01:13:13< AI0867> it appears that to use the std::stringstream, lg::wml_error, declared in log.hpp, the file in which it is used needs to #include <sstream>, or g++ will give very obscure errors about incomplete definitions (no match for ‘operator<<’ in ‘lg::wml_error << "Encountered empty translatable string\012"’)
20100920 01:15:30< Soliton> probably a good idea to include it in log.hpp then or at least make a note there.
20100920 01:15:41< AI0867> it seems that iosfwd declares it, and iosfwd is included by anything that uses streams (like iostream), but it is only actually defined in sstream
20100920 01:15:50< AI0867> or something similar to that
20100920 01:15:51< AI0867> yeah
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20100920 01:52:36< CIA-35> eleazar * r46619 /trunk/data/core/images/terrain/unwalkable/ (13 files): updated some of the lava chasm to the new chasm style.
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20100920 02:15:37-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: 160 bugs, 297 feature requests, 15 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
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20100920 02:31:53< un214> what's with this glitch where AI won't do any long range planning if it has no leader
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20100920 03:15:05< TheOneMica> Wowww
20100920 03:15:12< TheOneMica> Lots of people in here, never used to be this full :p
20100920 03:15:56< Gambit> TheOneMica: Are you "mica" from the forums and server?
20100920 03:16:10< TheOneMica> Uh, I haven't been on for like a year or so.
20100920 03:16:16< TheOneMica> So I dunno? I can't remember.~
20100920 03:16:32< Gambit> Hmmm
20100920 03:16:36< Gambit> "Last visited:Sat May 30, 2009 5:44 am"
20100920 03:16:39< Gambit> It does fit :)
20100920 03:16:58< TheOneMica> Hah, it's possible that's me. I'll check the username's posts.
20100920 03:17:13< Gambit> Well either way welcome back.
20100920 03:17:35< TheOneMica> Yes, that is me xD
20100920 03:17:43< TheOneMica> Was hoping to catch Dave on. Anyone seen him?
20100920 03:18:07< Gambit> TheOneMica: He mostly hangs out in #frogatto now
20100920 03:18:17< TheOneMica> Thanks Gambit
20100920 03:19:57< TheOneMica> Hey 
20100920 03:20:16< TheOneMica> Gambit: Do you know if anyone took over A New Land after me? I saw Bob is back, did he ever take that one over again?
20100920 03:20:39< Gambit> TheOneMica: Spo0kyMagician now maintains that I believe.
20100920 03:21:27< TheOneMica> Gambit: Thanks. Does he hang out on any IRC channels?
20100920 03:21:45< Gambit> Yes. Here, #wesnoth, #wesnoth-offtopic, and #wesnoth-umc-dev
20100920 03:21:48< Gambit> But he's not online right now
20100920 03:23:49< Gambit> ~13-14 hours he's ussually on IIRC
20100920 03:23:51< TheOneMica> Gambit: Thanks. There hasn't been a forum update since August, perhaps he's done? From the forum posts, he was just patching it, not really working on
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20100920 03:37:15< CIA-35> esr * r46620 /trunk/data/core/units.cfg: wmlscope/wmllint fixes.
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20100920 03:41:27< CIA-35> eleazar * r46621 /trunk/ (35 files in 3 dirs): Much improved transitions for the non-chasm lava. Still no good transitions between them.
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20100920 04:10:28< CIA-35> eleazar * r46622 /trunk/data/core/terrain-graphics.cfg: fixing transition gliches with the new lava.
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20100920 04:44:40< Gambit> eleazzaar: I love the way the lava now casts light on the sides of chasms and the crackly transition with the sand. Looks amazing.
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20100920 05:00:35< eleazzaar> :D
20100920 05:03:09< shadowmaster> Gambit: okay, so what with -dev?
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20100920 05:03:24< Gambit> shadowmaster: 21:15
20100920 05:03:40< shadowmaster> at 05s, 12s or 57s?
20100920 05:03:45< Gambit> Not really important now though.
20100920 05:03:53< Gambit> the whole minute
20100920 05:03:59< Gambit> Meh
20100920 05:04:14 * shadowmaster hits Gambit with a squeaky rubber mallet
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20100920 05:48:34 * TheBuzzSaw takes shadowmaster's wallet.
20100920 05:48:46< shadowmaster> no, the empty wallet no!
20100920 05:49:09< TheBuzzSaw> You think MINE is full? Why do you think I'm robbing you? :P
20100920 05:49:29-!- Blueblaze [~Blueblaze@adsl-76-202-20-231.dsl.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Blueblaze]
20100920 05:49:32-!- Greywhind [~Greywhind@96.238.16.162] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100920 05:49:44< shadowmaster> you won't get anything from  me, seriously.
20100920 05:49:50< shadowmaster> I'm starving even.
20100920 05:49:54< TheBuzzSaw> I'm a student. I am the king of poor.
20100920 05:50:35< TheBuzzSaw> I am studying the Win32 API at the moment... strictly for the purpose of making an OpenGL window and capturing events
20100920 05:56:03 * Espreon chuckles
20100920 05:56:25< Espreon> ... and then rolls his eyes...
20100920 06:05:18 * TheBuzzSaw pokes Espreon.
20100920 06:06:26< Espreon> Jeß?
20100920 06:09:36-!- FAAB1 [~huajie@219.142.226.38] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100920 06:09:53< CIA-35> esr * r46623 /trunk/data/campaigns/Legend_of_Wesmere/scenarios/Chapter_One_End.cfg: Fix damaged end of file.
20100920 06:10:13 * Espreon stabs TheBuzzSaw with a knife.
20100920 06:10:26< TheBuzzSaw> lolwut
20100920 06:10:32 * TheBuzzSaw spins and decapitates Espreon.
20100920 06:11:00 * Espreon escapes using his metaphysical powers...
20100920 06:11:38< Espreon> TheBuzzSaw: You poked me, I responded, you didn't respond... and yeahz...
20100920 06:13:52 * Espreon is really bored...
20100920 06:14:47< TheBuzzSaw> lol
20100920 06:15:08< TheBuzzSaw> I'm essentially building my own SDL
20100920 06:15:24< TheBuzzSaw> Buzz.boredom > Espreon.boredom
20100920 06:16:06< Espreon> OK...
20100920 06:16:44 * TheBuzzSaw is also avoiding homework.
20100920 06:16:52 * Espreon too
20100920 06:17:11< Espreon> This summer reading project should have been in about a week ago.
20100920 06:17:29< TheBuzzSaw> I have so many things due
20100920 06:18:09< Espreon> Well, at least you don't have to learn hiragana while having a professor who treats writing like art.
20100920 06:18:57< TheBuzzSaw> At least you don't have to study molarity, molality, osmotic pressure, and which solutes dissolve into which solvents
20100920 06:19:31-!- crimson_penguin [~ben@wesnoth/developer/crimsonpenguin] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20100920 06:19:37< Espreon> .... and I'm lucky that I don't have to deal with kanji right now... stupid ideograms...
20100920 06:19:51 * TheBuzzSaw knows Korean.
20100920 06:20:50< Espreon> Mixed or just hangul?
20100920 06:21:02< Espreon> If merely the latter, get out.
20100920 06:21:11< TheBuzzSaw> I speak it, write it, read it
20100920 06:21:49< Espreon> Yes, but do you read/write in just hangul?
20100920 06:22:02-!- crimson_penguin [~ben@wesnoth/developer/crimsonpenguin] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100920 06:22:07< TheBuzzSaw> You refer to mixed as in mixed with Chinese?
20100920 06:22:20< Espreon> Yeah, mixed with han characters.
20100920 06:22:38< TheBuzzSaw> I know some
20100920 06:23:01< Espreon> OK, fine.
20100920 06:23:13 * TheBuzzSaw lived in Korea for two years.
20100920 06:24:03 * Espreon does not wish to go to Japan... maybe...
20100920 06:24:23< TheBuzzSaw> Why are you studying Kanji?
20100920 06:24:29< Espreon> I'm not.
20100920 06:24:37< TheBuzzSaw> oh
20100920 06:24:44< Espreon> I'm learning about the Japanese language in general and hiragana.
20100920 06:24:48< TheBuzzSaw> fun
20100920 06:24:58< TheBuzzSaw> Oh well. C++ > all languages
20100920 06:25:37< Espreon> I'm only doing it because I had to do a senior project, I suck at everything except for languages, I don't have access to Old English courses, and... here we are.
20100920 06:27:15-!- crimson_penguin [~ben@wesnoth/developer/crimsonpenguin] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20100920 06:27:18< Espreon> TheBuzzSaw: Lies.
20100920 06:27:29< TheBuzzSaw> Then what brings you to the Wesnoth world?
20100920 06:28:27-!- crimson_penguin [~ben@wesnoth/developer/crimsonpenguin] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100920 06:29:12< Espreon> I somehow discovered it, liked it, saw that you can easily make things for it, tried to make something, failed, tried again, failed, tried again, stuck in development hell (but it's awesome), hopped on board the UtBS maintenance boat thanks to fendrin, and... here I am...
20100920 06:31:40< Espreon> TheBuzzSaw: So, essentially, the closest thing I know to a programming language is WML.
20100920 06:32:05< TheBuzzSaw> interesting
20100920 06:32:10-!- shadowm_laptop [ignacio@wesnoth/developer/shadowmaster] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
20100920 06:32:18< TheBuzzSaw> I'm... obviously a Wesnoth fanatic myself... I'm just really late to the party.
20100920 06:32:41< TheBuzzSaw> I'm particularly interested in breathing life back into the WesnothGL project.
20100920 06:32:47< Espreon> Yes, please do.
20100920 06:33:18-!- shadowm_laptop [ignacio@wesnoth/developer/shadowmaster] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100920 06:34:12< TheBuzzSaw> Right now, I am testing the viability of dropping SDL.
20100920 06:34:20< Espreon> Oh?
20100920 06:34:39< TheBuzzSaw> Yes. I am attempting to build the important components myself.
20100920 06:34:47< Espreon> I see...
20100920 06:35:01< TheBuzzSaw> Let's just say, I'm very upset at how slowly SDL updates.
20100920 06:36:29< TheBuzzSaw> I am working on a much more focused toolkit for OpenGL.
20100920 06:36:42< Espreon> Anyway, if you were curious about what I do around here, I do the following: maintain UtBS, make sure appropriate SVN properties are set on things, maintain the map, do image localization/transliteration for the Latin translation, the Spanish translation, and the Shavian transliteration, do other random stuff noöne cares about, and enforce good typography.
20100920 06:37:02< TheBuzzSaw> Important jobs.
20100920 06:37:12< TheBuzzSaw> I'm obviously a code monkey who rarely sees sunlight.
20100920 06:38:09< Espreon> And I'm just about done with my latest important project: enforce good typography.
20100920 06:38:16< TheBuzzSaw> awesome
20100920 06:38:22-!- TheOneMica [~TheOneMic@d27-96-76-1.nap.wideopenwest.com] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.10/20100914125854]]
20100920 06:38:35< Espreon> Sometimes, you'll see me refer to myself as the Typography Tyrant.
20100920 06:38:46< TheBuzzSaw> Espreon the Terrible
20100920 06:38:57< Espreon> Heh...
20100920 06:39:41< Espreon> Afterwards, I shall finish my second project, standardize filenames and scenario ids in the mainline campaigns...
20100920 06:39:59< TheBuzzSaw> that's awesome
20100920 06:40:04< Espreon> I know, right?
20100920 06:40:28< TheBuzzSaw> Maybe I'll come bug you when I start putting out test builds of my engine.
20100920 06:40:35< Espreon> Oh, why?
20100920 06:40:45< TheBuzzSaw> So you can help me render terrain correctly :P
20100920 06:40:52< Espreon> Uh..... nooooooooooooooooooooo...
20100920 06:41:03< TheBuzzSaw> XD
20100920 06:41:06< Espreon> What makes you think I could help you with that?
20100920 06:41:22< TheBuzzSaw> You don't need to know code. You just tell me what files I need to draw
20100920 06:41:29< TheBuzzSaw> since the Wesnoth tileset is ginormous
20100920 06:41:46< Espreon> Uh... why not try looking at the mess of macro calls?
20100920 06:41:58< Espreon> Besides, boucman would probably be better for that.
20100920 06:42:00< TheBuzzSaw> I probably will eventually. I'm just yankin
20100920 06:42:02< TheBuzzSaw> yer chain
20100920 06:42:49< Espreon> Besides, I don't know much about TerrainGraphicsWML and shit.
20100920 06:42:52< Espreon> ... it's a mess.
20100920 06:43:11< Espreon> I try to avoid dealing with terrain graphics stuff as much as possible.
20100920 06:43:40< TheBuzzSaw> I'll be busy juggling school and my little framework here.
20100920 06:43:41 * Espreon can't wait for Zerovirus to work on the Eloh sprites...
20100920 06:43:48< Espreon> Must... effect... plans for UtBS...
20100920 06:44:24< TheBuzzSaw> I'm trying to build my framework as fast as possible so I can play your content at 60 FPS
20100920 06:44:36< Espreon> Heh...
20100920 06:45:08< TheBuzzSaw> BRB one sec. Just gotta reboot.
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20100920 06:46:42 * Espreon wonders when beetlenaut is going to commit his work on the xcf....
20100920 06:47:09-!- TheBuzzSaw [~buzz@75-174-89-176.bois.qwest.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100920 06:47:19 * TheBuzzSaw is now in Ubuntu working on X11 programming.
20100920 06:48:38< Espreon> LOL, Ubuntu.
20100920 06:48:48< TheBuzzSaw> Ubuntu > all
20100920 06:48:50< TheBuzzSaw> Windows sux
20100920 06:49:26< Espreon> We all know that Windows sucks, but there are better distros than Ubuntu.
20100920 06:49:58< TheBuzzSaw> Not really. I've ran many of 'em. They really don't match the quality.
20100920 06:50:11< shadowmaster> I prefer Debian since it doesn't force me to use sudo or forget about root logins
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20100920 06:50:27< Espreon> I prefer Sabayon, for it can be used as instant-Gentoo.
20100920 06:50:34< TheBuzzSaw> I can activate a root terminal if I need. Otherwise, it's no big deal using sudo.
20100920 06:51:00< shadowmaster> "sudo sh" somehow doesn't sound right.
20100920 06:51:06< shadowmaster> I wonder what happens if I try to boot Ubuntu in runlevel S?
20100920 06:51:23< TheBuzzSaw> lol
20100920 06:51:29 * Espreon just hates binary distros...
20100920 06:51:38< shadowmaster> aw, I nuked my kubuntu virtual machine
20100920 06:51:51 * TheBuzzSaw hates Kubuntu.
20100920 06:51:53< shadowmaster> no way to test
20100920 06:52:12< shadowmaster> you do realize Kubuntu is Ubuntu with the KDE destop and Kubuntu branding, right?
20100920 06:52:25< shadowmaster> also, are we talking about what we love/hate, or comparing distros?
20100920 06:52:43< TheBuzzSaw> I know what Kubuntu is. I hate KDE.
20100920 06:52:55< shadowmaster> I hate GNOME.
20100920 06:52:57< shadowmaster> we're even.
20100920 06:53:01< TheBuzzSaw> hater
20100920 06:53:16< shadowmaster> s/GNOME/GNOME, Gtk1, Gtk2, and Cairo/
20100920 06:53:26< shadowmaster> (particularly Cairo)
20100920 06:53:37 * Espreon really hates GNOME
20100920 06:53:45< Espreon> Over here, it's either KDE or Fluxbox.
20100920 06:53:48< TheBuzzSaw> In Soviet Russia, GNOME hates you.
20100920 06:53:55< Espreon> Oh, hurr hurr hurr...
20100920 06:54:05< shadowmaster> yeah, I see it's just a childish discussion.
20100920 06:54:09 * shadowmaster goes elsewhere looking for saner people.
20100920 06:54:18< TheBuzzSaw> So, who wants to sponsor WesnothGL by sending me a Mac Mini?
20100920 06:54:36< Espreon> Uh, what will a Mac Mini do for you?
20100920 06:55:02< TheBuzzSaw> Well, it's kinda hard to build the OSX library for my toolkit without a Mac :P
20100920 06:55:22< Espreon> Or you could hassle crimson_penguin...
20100920 06:55:38< TheBuzzSaw> resident Mac expert?
20100920 06:55:57< Aeth> Honestly, a Mac Mini would make a decent spare box to hide away when you're not using it. Nothing's more compact. :P
20100920 06:56:05< crimson_penguin> WesnothGL, eh? sounds great
20100920 06:56:16< TheBuzzSaw> And it's one of the less expensive boxes. Seeing as how I'm poor...
20100920 06:56:28< TheBuzzSaw> Yeah crimson_penguin. I really want an accelerated Wesnoth
20100920 06:56:38< Aeth> What a coincidence, so do I.
20100920 06:56:46-!- beetlenaut [~dan@72-173-46-202.cust.wildblue.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20100920 06:57:01< TheBuzzSaw> Well, I'm taking some initiative
20100920 06:57:14< Aeth> Ugh.
20100920 06:57:21< TheBuzzSaw> NO U
20100920 06:57:27< Espreon> Nay, thou...
20100920 06:57:33< TheBuzzSaw> heh
20100920 06:57:37< Aeth> was about to say that OpenGL is a prereq for Android
20100920 06:57:42< shadowmaster> alright, line up children, and I'll decide whom of you shall be quieted.
20100920 06:57:55< Aeth> Then I read that Kyle is going to do an Android port, complete with all his crappy decisions like no-add-ons and pay-to-use-it
20100920 06:57:59< Aeth> :/
20100920 06:58:02< TheBuzzSaw> Back off, shadowmaster. I'm a saw, not a shadow. You don't command me.
20100920 06:58:09< Aeth> And not-keep-up-with-upstream
20100920 06:58:39< Aeth> Hey, it's open source, nothing stopping me from doing my own port, not touching his code at all, and releasing it for free. Like it should be.
20100920 06:58:43< shadowmaster> TheBuzzSaw: I'm a human, not a shadow. You don't call me shadow.
20100920 06:59:03< TheBuzzSaw> I didn't call you a shadow; I called you by your name!
20100920 06:59:06-!- beetlenaut [~dan@72-173-46-202.cust.wildblue.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100920 06:59:13< shadowmaster> Aeth: the no-addons policy is pretty much enforced  by Apple
20100920 06:59:22< TheBuzzSaw> Yeah, silly Apple
20100920 06:59:25< TheBuzzSaw> Trix are for kids
20100920 06:59:36< Aeth> Okay, good, because I bet he'll be doing compatability with his precious iPhone version :P
20100920 06:59:43< crimson_penguin> Aeth: I think you'll find he did a crapload of work to make it work on iOS; and also, it uses OpenGL on iOS too
20100920 06:59:50< Aeth> I do know he did a lot of work.
20100920 07:00:08< Aeth> And if he does an Android port, and if I have the time and knowledge, I'll do a lot of work to make a superior Android port.
20100920 07:00:11< Aeth> For free.
20100920 07:00:16< Aeth> Because I code for reputation, not cash.
20100920 07:00:23< TheBuzzSaw> I'm doing OpenGL on the Android for my internship.
20100920 07:00:24< Aeth> And I have a distaste for people who sell software.
20100920 07:00:28< crimson_penguin> Well, good luck
20100920 07:00:28< TheBuzzSaw> Android is a pain, unfortunately :(
20100920 07:00:40< shadowmaster> Aeth: we don't like that here.
20100920 07:00:50< crimson_penguin> Aeth: Is coding not worth anything?
20100920 07:01:00< shadowmaster> Aeth: you are being rather rude, you know.
20100920 07:01:10< Aeth> crimson_penguin: Must you be paid in order to do something worthwhile?
20100920 07:01:33< crimson_penguin> Aeth: Clearly not; I've been the Mac packager of Wesnoth for a year and a half, and I haven't been paid
20100920 07:01:35< Aeth> Need I point out the multitude of studies showing the superiority of intrinsic motivation, and how money doesn't matter once you're beyond a certain amount of comfort? 
20100920 07:02:09 * Espreon rolls his eyes
20100920 07:02:10< crimson_penguin> Sure, it's NICE to make things open source, but to have a distaste for people asking for money for work they've done...?
20100920 07:02:20< TheBuzzSaw> I have no problem with profiting from software; I simply take issue with many developers' approach to licenses, EULAs, and outdated business models.
20100920 07:02:28< Aeth> I don't have a distaste for people asking for money. I have a distaste for people *demanding* money.
20100920 07:02:46< Aeth> If I ever publish software it will be pay-as-you-want with $0 as an option. I realize that 99.9% of people will take the $0 route.
20100920 07:02:54< crimson_penguin> Aeth: Sure, but currently I'm not really making a living personally; and I agree, money still doesn't motivate me that well
20100920 07:03:12< shadowmaster> Aeth: you realize that part of the money goes to us, right?
20100920 07:03:31< shadowmaster> and you have a distate for us needing money to run our server and scolarship/grants programs?
20100920 07:03:36< shadowmaster> how nice.
20100920 07:03:41< crimson_penguin> anyway, I don't wanna argue more, I've got a game to release :P
20100920 07:03:41< Aeth> TheBuzzSaw: They're linked. Once you have a large enough organization demanding money you'll do anti-customer tactics putting money above customers. Almost all organizations large enough do this.
20100920 07:04:01< crimson_penguin> (also need to get to bed
20100920 07:04:21< Aeth> Oracle, Microsoft, EA, Activision...
20100920 07:04:27< TheBuzzSaw> Aeth: I am well aware of what idiotic companies do
20100920 07:04:30< shadowmaster> and sure you can take your pointless whinning to #wesnoth-offtopic anyway
20100920 07:04:32< Aeth> What do these software companies have in common? Once they got big enough they started screwing over customers.
20100920 07:04:59 * Espreon wishes to have all further whining sent to /dev/null
20100920 07:06:08< Aeth> Whatever. This micropayment-for-phone-app fad will pass. Just like ads-as-business-model for 80,000,000 blogs.
20100920 07:06:09-!- Aeth [~Michael@wesnoth/umc-dev/developer/aethaeryn] has quit [Quit: ...]
20100920 07:06:20< shadowmaster> moron.
20100920 07:06:25 * Espreon chuckles
20100920 07:06:31< shadowmaster> Espreon: you are not helping.
20100920 07:06:36< Espreon> I know.
20100920 07:07:05< shadowmaster> then quit your pointless noisy comments.
20100920 07:07:12< Espreon> Hwy?
20100920 07:07:18< shadowmaster> and restrain from using CTCP ACTION all the time
20100920 07:07:30 * TheBuzzSaw likes actions.
20100920 07:07:53< Espreon> shadowmaster: Uh, what?
20100920 07:08:10< shadowmaster> /me == CTCP ACTION
20100920 07:08:28< Espreon> Hwy?
20100920 07:08:41-!- mode/#wesnoth-dev [+q *!*@wesnoth/developer/espreon] by ChanServ
20100920 07:08:45< shadowmaster> remind me to unquiet you in two hours.
20100920 07:08:57< TheBuzzSaw> That was harsh...
20100920 07:13:02< TheBuzzSaw> Man, SDL is a mess
20100920 07:15:17< TheBuzzSaw> shadowmaster, you're fired for using SDL.
20100920 07:15:25< shadowmaster> I don't use SDL.
20100920 07:15:40< TheBuzzSaw> Oh, you work on logic?
20100920 07:15:46< shadowmaster> sorta
20100920 07:15:59< TheBuzzSaw> Ah, you work on illogic
20100920 07:16:36< shadowmaster> I guess I'd be wasting my time commenting on that.
20100920 07:16:51< TheBuzzSaw> What do you work on?
20100920 07:20:03< crimson_penguin> SDL was one of the first libraries I learned
20100920 07:20:09< crimson_penguin> In fact, it's one of few I know
20100920 07:20:44< TheBuzzSaw> I know. I'm being overly harsh on it.
20100920 07:20:47< TheBuzzSaw> SDL is fantastic for many things
20100920 07:20:58< TheBuzzSaw> But now that I know a lot more, I'm annoyed at it.
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20100920 07:29:23< TheBuzzSaw> crimson_penguin: What'd you build in SDL?
20100920 07:30:07< crimson_penguin> well, I made a tetris clone: www.happyspork.com/sporktris
20100920 07:30:15< TheBuzzSaw> haha awesome!
20100920 07:30:19< crimson_penguin> I've worked on a bunch of other things using it too
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20100920 08:21:16-!- joo|sleep is now known as joo
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20100920 08:26:54< stikonas> Espreon: can you look at commit 46579. l10n-track file is not updated there.
20100920 08:26:54< SpoOkyMagician> The person with the nick TheOneMica was looking for you at 4h 59m ago; (what did he want?)
20100920 08:28:27< Espreon> stikonas: Eh, I can't do anything from here...
20100920 08:28:28-!- vigg [~dtiger2@fe26.hc.ru] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100920 08:29:09 * SpoOkyMagician shrugs
20100920 08:29:27-!- Upth [ogmar@adsl-75-26-181-57.dsl.scrm01.sbcglobal.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100920 08:29:52< Espreon> stikonas: Besides, the track file doesn't need to be updated; new files have not been added, nor have the source files been changed.
20100920 08:31:46< Espreon> Anyway, I shall be taking a two month Wesbreak. Don't expect me to be around... So, enjoy my presence while it lasts.
20100920 08:32:28-!- Upthorn [ogmar@adsl-75-26-192-201.dsl.scrm01.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
20100920 08:34:01< vigg> hello, any active developer here?
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20100920 08:42:50< silene> vigg: for 20 minutes yes
20100920 08:43:37< vigg> if configuring with ENABLE_EDITOR is OFF then error while compiling src/game.cpp
20100920 08:43:46< vigg> here is a patch (two #ifndef DISABLE_EDITOR added): http://wesnoth.pastebin.com/eP6rHQNV
20100920 08:45:50< silene> thanks
20100920 08:55:35< CIA-35> silene * r46624 /trunk/src/game.cpp: Fixed compilation with disabled editor. (Patch by vigg.)
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20100920 09:21:40< shadowmaster> If I ever find out who decided to name a USB modem Linux driver module as "option"...
20100920 09:22:34< shadowmaster> "thing" or "software" could have fit too.
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20100920 09:49:52< Ivanovic> moin
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20100920 09:56:04< shadowmaster> I suspect I'm about to fix the dumbest bug ever.
20100920 09:56:48 * SpoOkyMagician is curious what it is
20100920 09:57:01< CIA-35> ivanovic * r46625 /trunk/po/wesnoth-httt/ja.po: updated Japanese translation
20100920 09:57:02< CIA-35> ivanovic * r46626 /branches/1.8/po/wesnoth-httt/ja.po: updated Japanese translation
20100920 10:10:55< CIA-35> shadowmaster * r46627 /branches/1.8/ (changelog src/addon_management.cpp): 
20100920 10:10:55< CIA-35> Fix http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?p=453663#p453663
20100920 10:10:55< CIA-35> I'm an idiot.
20100920 10:12:11< Ivanovic> interesting
20100920 10:12:39< Ivanovic> building wesnoth with -O2 -pipe on my system using six threads uses >3GB ram at peak times
20100920 10:13:02< shadowmaster> I use -O3 -pipe
20100920 10:13:11< Ivanovic> (yeah, just compilation, not what my system takes for normal stuff)
20100920 10:13:27< shadowmaster> 4 subprocesses. I have 4 GB of RAM (3.7), and it doesn't seem to be draining RAM
20100920 10:13:38< shadowmaster> i.e. my swap usage is 8 MB.
20100920 10:14:10< shadowmaster> if it consumed that much RAM there'd be a lot of pages in swap (way more than 8 MB)
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20100920 10:15:54< CIA-35> shadowmaster * r46628 /branches/1.8/players_changelog: 
20100920 10:15:54< CIA-35> Some people have apparently forgotten how the players_changelog is
20100920 10:15:54< CIA-35> supposed to be formatted, so fixing it in this commit.
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20100920 10:17:43< shadowmaster> note to self: must write that web interface to changelogs
20100920 10:17:44< CIA-35> shadowmaster * r46629 /trunk/players_changelog: 
20100920 10:17:44< CIA-35> Some people forgot (after 1.9.1) what the players_changelog is supposed
20100920 10:17:44< CIA-35> to look like, so fixing it in trunk with this commit.
20100920 10:17:54< shadowmaster> note to self #2: must read these notes from time to time
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20100920 10:35:45< zookeeper> eleazzaar, actually the old-style flat lava had one benefit: you could make a scenario where the lava slowly expands, because it looked like the lava was actually on top. if it always sits in a pit, you can't really achieve that effect without it looking weird.
20100920 10:36:13< zookeeper> there's at least two mainline scenarios where such an effect is used
20100920 10:38:27< Ivanovic> is lava already animated?
20100920 10:38:41< Ivanovic> some bubbles could really make a difference for the lava...
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20100920 12:01:34< CIA-35> ivanovic * r46630 /trunk/po/ (wesnoth-dm/ru.po wesnoth-lib/ru.po): updated Russian translation
20100920 12:01:40< CIA-35> ivanovic * r46631 /branches/1.8/po/ (wesnoth-dm/ru.po wesnoth-lib/ru.po): updated Russian translation
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20100920 12:38:40< scibotic> Is there any campaigns in need of story images?
20100920 12:39:51< esr> scibotic: Several, are you offering to make them?
20100920 12:40:29< scibotic> Yeah, I'm focused on practicing speed painting and story boarding at the moment, might as well make a contribution while I'm at it.
20100920 12:43:07< esr> OK.  I'm one of the mainline campaign maintainers.  I need to reboot my machine to apply a security patch, but I'll be back shortly and we'll discuss it.
20100920 12:43:26< scibotic> Cool. :)
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20100920 12:47:41< zookeeper> scibotic, oh, nice. have you been on the forums yet?
20100920 12:48:11< zookeeper> (i'm another mainline campaign maintainer)
20100920 12:48:41< esr> scibotic: He's *the* other one, actually :-)
20100920 12:49:26< esr> Morning, zookeeeper.  Gotta sign off and reboot and get back on.
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20100920 12:49:48< scibotic> No I haven't yet, was just hoping to gather some info.
20100920 12:50:40< zookeeper> ok, i was just wondering since your nick seemed vaguely familiar.
20100920 12:50:51< zookeeper> anyway, have you got any specific campaign(s) in mind?
20100920 12:51:02< scibotic> I was around a year ago, but I wasn't able to get my hands on a maintainer.
20100920 12:51:17< scibotic> Not that it matters, I'm a lot more ready to handle story images now than I was back then.
20100920 12:52:32< scibotic> I'll be honest, the gameplay itself totally doesn't float my boat. Wesnoth has proven themselves to be a excellent open source project and the story images would be good practice.
20100920 12:53:25< scibotic> So no, no campaigns in mind. Feel free to prioritise it by popularity.
20100920 12:54:08< zookeeper> hmmh, ok. well, i can list a couple of good candidates, just a minute...
20100920 12:54:45< scibotic> If you want to see some random sketches and doodles, http://www.alwaysdoodling.com/
20100920 12:57:37< zookeeper> an orcish incursion, dead water, delfador's memoirs, eastern invasion, sceptre of fire, son of the black-eye
20100920 12:58:04< zookeeper> esr would probably like to add hammer of thursagan to that list
20100920 12:58:26< scibotic> Which campaign would you recommend? Also what's the best way to peruse the story?
20100920 12:59:08< zookeeper> well, personally i'd suggest a short campaign first, so you don't have to start by committing to making 10 images
20100920 12:59:19< scibotic> Fair enough.
20100920 12:59:23< zookeeper> an orcish incursion is really short and wouldn't require more than a handful of images
20100920 12:59:45< zookeeper> i mean, of course you can pick a longer one too if you want, but i figured you'd probably be more comfortable with a smaller project first
20100920 13:00:14< scibotic> You're perfectly right, a smaller project is definitely a better place to start.
20100920 13:00:44< zookeeper> unfortunately i also think that an orcish incursion is the most boring campaign so i'm reluctant to recommend it :P
20100920 13:01:03< scibotic> The alternative would be?
20100920 13:01:11< zookeeper> thinking..
20100920 13:01:53< scibotic> If we do a longer one, we'll have to divide it into milestones. I won't be able to guarentee tons of images, but I can guarentee a single chapter for example.
20100920 13:02:23< scibotic> If thinks work out, we can always do more.
20100920 13:02:26< scibotic> things*
20100920 13:03:09< zookeeper> eastern invasion could probably do with a relatively short set of images, like about 5
20100920 13:03:19< scibotic> Five is fine.
20100920 13:05:11< zookeeper> ok, so the best way to peruse the story is of course to play through the campaign
20100920 13:05:28< zookeeper> but if you don't want to do that, then...looking...
20100920 13:05:35< scibotic> Anyway to skip through it?
20100920 13:06:37< zookeeper> http://wiki.wesnoth.org/CampaignDialogue:EI
20100920 13:06:58< zookeeper> yeah, you can skip scenarios in-game: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/CommandMode
20100920 13:07:02< scibotic> Oh kick ass.
20100920 13:07:15< scibotic> Didn't know you kept an outline on the wiki.
20100920 13:08:00< zookeeper> well, frankly i never understood why someone made an effort to do that, but i guess it's useful for this purpose
20100920 13:08:26< zookeeper> i'm sure they'll also fall out of sync when we make dialogue changes and stuff, but it's good enough to give you an idea of the plot
20100920 13:08:48< scibotic> Okay thank you. :)
20100920 13:09:16< zookeeper> anyway, here's my idea of how we should do story images: divide campaign into X "chapters", and have every scenario of each chapter display the same story image.
20100920 13:10:01< zookeeper> so, for example in EI, we could divide it into 5 "chapters" and make the story image for each work reasonably well for each scenario in that chapter
20100920 13:10:05< scibotic> Will it actually fit the story? I mean, do the scenarios repeat?
20100920 13:10:38< zookeeper> not sure what you mean
20100920 13:10:58< scibotic> Yeah, I don't get what you mean either.
20100920 13:11:02< zookeeper> oh, ok :P
20100920 13:11:16< zookeeper> i'll sketch up a suggestion for EI story images if you give me a few minutes
20100920 13:11:28< scibotic> Sure.
20100920 13:11:41< zookeeper> that ought to convey what i mean a bit better
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20100920 13:18:27< scibotic> Apologies if I'm slow to respond, I've been up for 19 hours now so I'm alternating between resting and reading.
20100920 13:18:40< scibotic> Been up since 2am. :/
20100920 13:20:55< zookeeper> no worries, it'll take me a few more minutes to finish my suggestion...
20100920 13:25:45< scibotic> Brb, switching to my laptop.
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20100920 13:28:58< zookeeper> scibotic, ok, here's what i came up with: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com/aAEPEND5
20100920 13:30:22< scibotic> So about seven images?
20100920 13:30:51< zookeeper> yeah, i couldn't squeeze the essential parts into less than six
20100920 13:31:26< zookeeper> of course the epilogue could use one more
20100920 13:34:06< scibotic> I'm just setting up a Celtx project and funnelling this into my notes.
20100920 13:36:53< scibotic> I'll have a look through the campaign, should I set up a forum thread when I'm ready so we can discuss this?
20100920 13:38:32< scibotic> IRC is too much of a distraction for me to be keeping it open when I'm busy.
20100920 13:38:43< zookeeper> we can discuss it here or on the forums, whichever you prefer. the important bit is to keep posting the actual work on the forums, so our art directors can chime in
20100920 13:38:50< zookeeper> okay, that's fine
20100920 13:39:42< scibotic> Which forum section does it belong in?
20100920 13:40:56< zookeeper> art contributions
20100920 13:42:06< scibotic> I can't follow the typical Wesnoth style guide for the story images, the resemblance will be there but it's more speed painting than line art.
20100920 13:42:11< scibotic> Is that a problem?
20100920 13:43:38< zookeeper> i'm not enough of an artist to be able to say without seeing an example
20100920 13:44:00< zookeeper> there's usually a fair bit of leeway in campaign-specific story art
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20100920 13:48:41< scibotic> Good, at this stage I'm more concerned about just working out the story plot points, who the characters and where the setting is, then sorting out the script and what I plan on drawing, then doing some quick scribbles with non-descript stickmen to figure out the layout and make sure we're on the same page.
20100920 13:49:21< scibotic> After that I can effectively go nuts and do my thing, make shit pretty etc.
20100920 13:50:17< zookeeper> all righty
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20100920 13:51:34< zookeeper> note that my suggestion aims for very generic story images which just roughly describe the environment that gweddry and co are in; if we wanted to more accurately portray what they're doing in each scenario, then pretty much all the scenarios would require their own image.
20100920 13:52:17< zookeeper> however, i do have the suspicion that we could be much more innovative regarding this stuff
20100920 13:52:33< zookeeper> for example... *types*
20100920 13:52:51< scibotic> We can discuss that at the "non-descript stickmen" stage, these sort of things are better discussed with examples.
20100920 13:54:16< scibotic> At that point it'll be more obvious what I have in mind so it'll be easier for us to juggle the details.
20100920 13:54:57< zookeeper> eh, actually i need more time to translate my vague thought into words, so i guess i'll post it in your thread when you make one
20100920 13:55:44< scibotic> I wasn't planning on making the thread for a while, mainly because I usually want something to show first.
20100920 13:56:17< scibotic> I'll pop in on IRC tomorrow about an hour or two earlier from now.
20100920 13:56:47< scibotic> Is that okay for you?
20100920 13:58:40< zookeeper> sure
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20100920 14:00:35< scibotic> You'll have your time to articulate your thoughts, and I'll have my time to get some sleep and read the story.
20100920 14:01:11< zookeeper> sounds good to me
20100920 14:01:34< scibotic> Thank you for the help, I'm pretty much ready to pass out now. :)
20100920 14:01:55< scibotic> I'll catch you tomorrow, take care!
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20100920 14:58:46< FAAB1> Hi Crab_
20100920 14:58:59< Crab_> hi
20100920 15:01:56< FAAB1> Crab_: I don;t know if you remember I have sent a couple of patch 2=3 monthes ago on the custom made AI. One is still open, do you know its status ?
20100920 15:02:48 * Crab_ takes a look...
20100920 15:03:02< Crab_> https://gna.org/patch/?1666 ?
20100920 15:03:06< FAAB1> Crab_: patch #1666
20100920 15:09:29< Crab_> status is 'I should really take another look at it and then commit it'
20100920 15:10:03< Crab_> it should be ok, but I don't remember why I haven't commited it a long time ago, I should think a bit about it and if no issues are spotted, commit.
20100920 15:10:19< FAAB1> Crab_: great
20100920 15:10:35< Crab_> I'll do so this week
20100920 15:11:17< FAAB1> Crab_: something else, At that time you told me that the formaula AI could be replace by lua AI at the end of the summer if the GSOC was a success
20100920 15:11:45< FAAB1> Crab_: is everythin in place to switch a formula AI to a lua AI now ?
20100920 15:11:53< Crab_> FAAB1: yes, but 'extend lua ai' was not selected for gsoc this yer.
20100920 15:12:02< Crab_> FAAB1: persistence (global variables) was.
20100920 15:13:11< Crab_> FAAB1: so, lua ai has some basic stuff ( it can do moves, and both stages and candidate actions can be written in lua), but there was no gsoc work done to extend it to achieve at least feature-parity with fai.
20100920 15:13:35< Crab_> of course, lua ai has full access to lua wml&gamestate functions, so it's not that limited
20100920 15:15:14< Crab_> maybe, when'll have a holiday, I'll implement those few things which are missing.. or we'll need to wait for another gsoc
20100920 15:15:32< Crab_> (we need to expose ai parameters and caches and goals to lua ai)
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20100920 15:22:23< FAAB1> Crab_: ok, I will try to see if I can harvest some info on the wiki
20100920 15:23:09< Crab_> FAAB1: see data/ai/scenarios/scenario-lua-ai.cfg
20100920 15:23:43< Crab_> note that you can freely mix c++, fai, and lua components.
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20100920 17:00:46< eleazzaar> zookeeper: i wasn't aware of those uses of Qlf
20100920 17:00:59< eleazzaar> I see two options:
20100920 17:01:11< eleazzaar> add the old ugly lava as campaign specific
20100920 17:02:06< eleazzaar> #2 keep both the old and new non-chasm lava in mainline
20100920 17:03:49< zookeeper> eleazzaar, i'd rather go with #2. i don't think it's exactly a rare use case, there's at least one add-on i can immediately remember that uses it.
20100920 17:04:52< eleazzaar> I'm reluctant to do #2 because the transitions are really ugly
20100920 17:06:05< eleazzaar>  i would guess that most of the time it is used (by artless map designers that don't care that it's ugly) it's used in a way that the new graphics would fit
20100920 17:07:26< eleazzaar> also any reason that drak unwalkable terrains doesn't use wildcards?
20100920 17:07:52< zookeeper> drak?
20100920 17:07:55< eleazzaar> currently drake
20100920 17:08:00< eleazzaar> "drake"
20100920 17:08:17< zookeeper> still doesn't compute ;)
20100920 17:08:25< eleazzaar> #define DRAKE_UNWALKABLE_TERRAINS
20100920 17:08:26< eleazzaar> Wo,Ww,Ww^Vm,Chs,Chw,Ss,Qxu,Qxua,Ql,Qlf#enddef
20100920 17:08:30< zookeeper> oh, right
20100920 17:08:39< zookeeper> no idea, really
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20100920 17:09:12< eleazzaar> any W* and Q* should have the drake flying i think
20100920 17:09:27< zookeeper> except for ford, i guess
20100920 17:10:05< eleazzaar> Can it use the ,!, ?
20100920 17:11:19< eleazzaar> anyway that's your thing, right?
20100920 17:12:42< eleazzaar> searching  the whole wesnoth folder i only find Qlf in: 4p ruins of terra dwelve
20100920 17:13:06< zookeeper> i vaguely remember talking to someone about wildcarding there
20100920 17:13:14< zookeeper> i'll check my logs a bit later and go make dinner now... ->
20100920 17:14:58< eleazzaar> k
20100920 17:16:49< eleazzaar> Hey, here's an question:  Does anybody know how to search the addon directories to figure out the frequency of use of the various terrains?
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20100920 17:28:47< zookeeper> eleazzaar, i've usually asked soliton to grep for stuff on the add-on server, but besides that i haven't found a good method :P
20100920 17:31:18< eleazzaar> Soliton: if you could grep the 1.8 addon-server's maps for "Ql" and "Qlf" and tell me how many times those two terrains are used, it would be helpful in figuring out weather to change an existing terrain or weather to alter it.
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20100920 17:41:13< Soliton> eleazzaar: 371 files in 106 add-ons have it.
20100920 17:41:38< Soliton> eleazzaar: that was just looking for 'Ql' though and not only in .map files.
20100920 17:42:15< eleazzaar> Soliton: would Ql include "Qlf"?
20100920 17:42:22< Soliton> yes.
20100920 17:42:55< eleazzaar> how many "Qlf"s?
20100920 17:43:39< Soliton> 161 files in 63 add-ons
20100920 17:44:07< eleazzaar> how many add-ons total?
20100920 17:44:26< eleazzaar> with or without Qlf
20100920 17:44:48< Soliton> 225
20100920 17:45:00< eleazzaar> thanks
20100920 17:45:08< eleazzaar> that's more than i would have thought
20100920 17:45:19< Soliton> yeah, seems well used.
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20100920 18:20:36< anonymissimus> zookeeper: can you think of tags left that do not yet support a SUF but only coordinates instead ?
20100920 18:24:22< zookeeper> anonymissimus, not really. there's some tags which ought to take SLF's instead of just coordinates, but for units i think it's good now, or at least i can't remember or find any missing ones.
20100920 18:25:16< anonymissimus> me too; what are the ones that should take SLF ?
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20100920 18:28:21< zookeeper> anonymissimus, at least [capture_village] and [terrain], and i think the latter doesn't support an SLF partly because the terrain= key would clash
20100920 18:29:42< zookeeper> also i _think_ scenario-level [time_area] only supports x,y
20100920 18:30:01< zookeeper> IIRC someone said there was some technical reason for it, dunno.
20100920 18:32:41< zookeeper> eleazzaar, wildcarding might not work for the drake unwalkable terrains since the places it's used in don't (all) support SLF but just a simple list, i guess.
20100920 18:32:48< zookeeper> at least i get wonky results.
20100920 18:32:53< zookeeper> afk ->
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20100920 18:47:59< anonymissimus> silene: capture_village seems doable, I'll move that to lua and add SLF
20100920 18:51:57< zookeeper> eleazzaar, ok, what i just said doesn't seem to be the cause, but multiple !'s still don't seem to work right.
20100920 18:52:29< TheBuzzSaw> should work fine
20100920 18:52:37< TheBuzzSaw> !!(x > 2)
20100920 18:53:13< zookeeper> doesn't make any sense to me anyway. when i use W*,Chs,Chw,S*,Q* they land on bridges even though that filter should match them.
20100920 18:53:33< zookeeper> when i change that to W*,Chs,Chw,S*,Q*,!,*^B* then they just start flying pretty much everywhere
20100920 18:56:56< silene> anonymissimus: yes, it should be fine, though i have no idea if the current x,y syntax is the same one as the slf syntax
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20100920 19:01:27< anonymissimus> silene: from all what it looks a SLF will support the current syntax, it's just x,y= single integers
20100920 19:02:56< silene> not exactly, currently, it supports things like x=12-15,17,42 y=... (the slf may actually support the exact same syntax, but since it's two different pieces of code, i'm not 100% sure)
20100920 19:03:48< anonymissimus> correction: it supports ranges
20100920 19:04:01< silene> it supports sequence of ranges
20100920 19:04:54< zookeeper> SLF should be able to support that
20100920 19:05:27< zookeeper> clarification: i'm pretty sure SLF does support that
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20100920 19:05:58< anonymissimus> me too
20100920 19:06:23< silene> zookeeper: i wouldn't be too sure they support the exact same corner cases (e.g. x and y sequences with different sizes); but it's a good thing anyway the two syntaxes get merged
20100920 19:07:16< silene> so i'm all for the change; we should just be sure how the behavior changes (if it changes at all) so that we don't get surprises later
20100920 19:10:24< anonymissimus> bool map_location::matches_range in terrain_filter.cpp shows that comma separated list of ranges is supported at least
20100920 19:11:04< anonymissimus> amp_location.cpp
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20100920 19:19:12< anonymissimus> there are quite some uses of capture_villages with comma separated list of ranges in UtBS
20100920 19:20:01< anonymissimus> "e.g. x and y sequences with different sizes" - is that supported anyway ? or what do you mean ? does it make sense ?
20100920 19:21:08< anonymissimus> if I do things like x=1-2,4-5 and only y=1-2 I can't expect the filter to work well
20100920 19:22:12< silene> i checked and both pieces of code work the same way, if the sizes are mismatching, the engine assumes that any other coordinates work
20100920 19:22:43< silene> i agree it seems useless, but the special case where only one range is given is actually useful
20100920 19:23:13< silene> but anyway, it's purely academic since both codes seem to behave the same
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20100920 19:45:29< beetlenaut> In case anyone besides Espreon was wonding about the Dead Water map, I uploaded that a while ago. There are DW layers in /branches/resources/cartography-tools/great-continent.xcf.
20100920 19:47:12< stikonas> beetlenaut: thanks
20100920 19:50:43-!- mjs-de [~mjs-de@wh.uni-dortmund.de] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100920 20:04:53< stikonas> I've now added Background_Map.png to http://wiki.wesnoth.org/ImageLocalization#List_of_Images_for_Localization
20100920 20:15:37-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: 159 bugs, 297 feature requests, 15 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
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20100920 20:23:31< boucman> eleazzaar: around ?
20100920 20:23:38< eleazzaar> sorta
20100920 20:24:21< boucman> about the bridge next to forest, the most reasonable way to do it would be to add bridges to the list of terrains that force to have "small" forest
20100920 20:24:46< eleazzaar> that sounds fine
20100920 20:25:13< boucman> k, i'll have a look tonight if you don't bet me to it
20100920 20:25:45< eleazzaar> say does the forest support directional small forests?
20100920 20:26:08< boucman> I don't think it currently does, but we could probably add it...
20100920 20:26:16< eleazzaar> like if i name a "small" forest correctly it would be used when the obstruction is on the N
20100920 20:27:06< eleazzaar> it's not something i'll probably mess with soon, but i was wondering
20100920 20:27:33< boucman> eleazzaar: apparently it doesn't, but if you open a FR and assign it to me I won't forget to do it
20100920 20:29:32< zookeeper> i can also add the bridge rule
20100920 20:29:36< eleazzaar> i'd be more intersted in seeing variants transtions for the corner-based terrains
20100920 20:30:09< zookeeper> and yes, forests used to have directional small variants but they were removed when the forest graphics were overhauled, because they resulted in tons of images for what seemed like relatively small benefit
20100920 20:30:34< eleazzaar> yeah, unfortunately now there are no variants at all
20100920 20:30:56< zookeeper> yep. do you think it'd really be worth the trouble?
20100920 20:31:00< eleazzaar> so you see the exact configuration of trees whenever it's next to a castle/water etc
20100920 20:31:12< zookeeper> oh, right. sure, we should add variations.
20100920 20:31:22< eleazzaar> i don't know if we just need variants or direction variants
20100920 20:31:49< eleazzaar> but some variants would definitely be moving in the right direction
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20100920 20:32:52< eleazzaar> anyway, i just opened my iPod touch -- i'll be afk most of today
20100920 20:32:54< zookeeper> i'm pretty sure the current system supports variations for the small variants
20100920 20:33:06< zookeeper> so if you want to try it out, you should be able to just drop more images in
20100920 20:33:24< boucman> I would have to check, but yes it probably does, 
20100920 20:33:33< boucman> and i'm not sure what you mean by side transition
20100920 20:33:33< eleazzaar> i expect so
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20100920 20:34:22< eleazzaar> i'm not sure where i used those words...
20100920 20:35:03< zookeeper> another interesting idea for solving the directional issue might be to only have "central" small variants like now, but also a few even smaller sparse tiles which could be drawn between the small tiles.
20100920 20:35:23< zookeeper> the WML would be easy, using my new forest macro :p
20100920 20:35:26< boucman> yes, you said corner based terrain, sry
20100920 20:35:49< boucman> there is a forest specific macro ?
20100920 20:35:52< zookeeper> actually i think i'll try out the idea i just described
20100920 20:35:55< boucman> I thought I got rid of these :(
20100920 20:36:12< boucman> zookeeper: you could just do it as transitions, it would work
20100920 20:36:33< eleazzaar> that would certainly cut down on the number of images needed
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20100920 20:37:09< zookeeper> boucman, as i've said i want to clean up some of the macro mess, and currently i have a single 50-line macro which draws all forests correctly (i think), but it's uncommitted
20100920 20:37:15< mordante> servus
20100920 20:37:22< boucman> k...
20100920 20:37:36< mordante> Ivanovic, IMO we still should test with SDL 1.2.13 a lot of users probably still use it as well
20100920 20:38:05 * eleazzaar goes away...
20100920 20:38:54< boucman> zookeeper: well, i'm not sure why you think forest WML is messy... you could put the forest info in its own file, but it wouldn't make it simpler... it currently use a single macro (multiple times) which has a very clear and documented effect...
20100920 20:39:23< zookeeper> boucman, i'm sure i've explained why macro mess is a mess several times
20100920 20:39:42< boucman> but i'm all ear, my own reorg of macros was to make higher level calls in terrain-graphics.cfg so WML writers wouldn't have to mess with core WML... if you don't find it clearer it might need some rethinking
20100920 20:40:18< zookeeper> also i've never seen any documentation for the terrain macros, where is it?
20100920 20:40:41< boucman> http://wiki.wesnoth.org/TerrainMacrosWML
20100920 20:41:20< zookeeper> right. no pages link to it, so it's kinda hard to find ;)
20100920 20:41:47< zookeeper> the forests are a mess like everything else, because OVERLAY_COMPLETE calls OVERLAY_COMPLETE_LFB
20100920 20:41:54< zookeeper> argh, stupid linebreak
20100920 20:42:39< boucman> zookeeper: if the WML preprocessor allowed default values to parameter it would be clearer, I agree... but it doesn't so we have to live with it
20100920 20:43:01< zookeeper> OVERLAY_COMPLETE calls OVERLAY_COMPLETE_LFB which calls GENERIC_COMPLETE_LFB which calls 5 different macros which all call at least one macro
20100920 20:43:32< zookeeper> i don't see any benefit to that level of obfuscation
20100920 20:44:06< zookeeper> anyone who actually works on the terrains besides just adding a carbon copy of an existing terrain needs to understand what the macro they're using actually does
20100920 20:44:12< Ivanovic> mordante: real problems just occur if you work around some strange 1.2.13 issue with lots of black vodoo and create a real issue for 1.2.14 users
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20100920 20:44:58< zookeeper> whenever i need to do something terrain graphics -related, i have to spend a long time grepping through the macro calls in order to find out what the heck is it that some macro actually does or how it works
20100920 20:45:05< boucman> zookeeper: I designed these macros with the idea that users wouldn't look at how it's done, only the documentation... it allows a macro with rather simple effects that can be used easily
20100920 20:45:18< mordante> Ivanovic, that needs to be tested, but I don't expect bad side effects
20100920 20:45:25< boucman> I had to choose between simple macros that needs to be used in complex way to do complicated stuff
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20100920 20:45:55< Ivanovic> mordante: is it normal for 1.2.13 users to get exactly one "warning, we seem to have missed an event" message with gui2 stuff?
20100920 20:46:10< boucman> or complex macros that are "smart" but hard to understand... I went for the second because most artist don't like dealing with complex programmation like macros... maybe I was wrong
20100920 20:46:12< mordante> Ivanovic, yeah that's a know issue
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20100920 20:46:33< mordante> still somewhat swamped in things to do :-(
20100920 20:47:21< zookeeper> i'm just saying it's a pain to work with, not to mention the huge performance problems it caused (which presumably are solved now though). doesn't help that i didn't know/remember that wiki page, of course.
20100920 20:48:26< boucman> zookeeper: the fact that you didn't know the page is my fault, I didn't advertize it well enough because I havn't overhauled everything yet, there is still lots of WIP esp in castles and mountains
20100920 20:49:09< boucman> the perf problems are worked on by alink, I will do a an overhaul the internals of that WML once he's done to simplify it greatly (but we need some c++ side support first)
20100920 20:50:55< zookeeper> also there's the fact that i doubt anyone but you can really easily figure out how it works. considering how terrain graphics WML has always been the part that almost no one fully understands, i'd much rather keep the internals as simple as possible.
20100920 20:51:02 * anonymissimus wishes that it wouldn't be so damn hard to forsee bugs
20100920 20:51:49< zookeeper> there's 1064 macro definitions in core/terrain-graphics/. that just doesn't sound healthy to me, no matter what.
20100920 20:52:44< boucman> zookeeper: most of these are autogerated macros, and the problem is that terrain-WML is complicated on the artistic side, i.e lots of things to combine in lots of subtle way... 
20100920 20:53:34< boucman> if we do simpler macros, we will make terrain-graphics.cfg more complicated, we will have to deal with that complexity at some level, we just need to find the right level to deal with it
20100920 20:57:49< zookeeper> boucman, well, now that variations (and soon animations?) can be handled by a single terrain rule, there ought to be much less need for complex macro structures
20100920 20:58:20< boucman> indeed, i'm looking forward to that
20100920 20:58:55< boucman> not however that this will remove a layer of macros, but not the autogenerated ones (which are mainly here to deal with default parameters)
20100920 20:59:28< zookeeper> also, for example my new forest macro isn't any more complicated to use than OVERLAY_COMPLETE! it has the exact same parameters, but it's just a single macro instead of...12 or so
20100920 21:01:09< boucman> yes but you can't use it for anything else than forest, because you know exactly what kind of images you have (I guess, I havn't seen your macros) so anybody that want to add more stuff needs to tweak the internals of your macros, which is what I'm trying to avoid...
20100920 21:01:24< CIA-35> anonymissimus * r46632 /trunk/ (data/lua/wml-tags.lua src/game_events.cpp): Moved [capture_village] to lua and added support for SLF.
20100920 21:02:30< zookeeper> sure, but how often do we really need to add a terrain which isn't drawn the same way as some existing one? very rarely
20100920 21:02:51< boucman> obviously you havn't worked with lurker :P
20100920 21:03:00< boucman> (though I admit this is a special case)
20100920 21:03:11< anonymissimus> zookeeper, one of the capture_village macros in side-utils is radius-based, that can be simplified now
20100920 21:04:20< zookeeper> yeah, occasionally there's need for tricky cases, but i can't really imagine that the effort required to, for example, add a completely new kind of bridge using the current macro system would be less than just writing a new specialized macro to do it
20100920 21:04:40< zookeeper> for you it might be, since you know how the current system works, but does anyone else?
20100920 21:04:47< boucman> the bridge macros are very generic actually...
20100920 21:06:09< boucman> zookeeper: i'm not sure how you plan to do it, but if you want to rewrite the terrain macros, i'm not possessive about it, i'll gladly help you as much as I can...
20100920 21:06:57< boucman> (and I'm serious here, I took that part because nobody cared nor understood it, but if someone else want to make it better, that would be great...)
20100920 21:07:45< zookeeper> phew, glad to hear it :P
20100920 21:07:56< boucman> :)
20100920 21:08:33< zookeeper> i'm not going to commit myself to rewriting _everything_, but i was thinking of tackling one bit at a time
20100920 21:09:34< boucman> zookeeper: sounds good, feel free to ping me if you need help understanding my mess (and wait for me before attacking bridges, that one is really complicated :P )
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20100920 21:15:11< zookeeper> boucman, sure
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20100920 21:21:27< CIA-35> anonymissimus * r46633 /trunk/changelog: changelog entry for r46585 and r46632
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20100920 21:29:52< CIA-35> mordante * r46634 /trunk/src/hotkeys.cpp: 
20100920 21:29:52< CIA-35> Show change language hotkey.
20100920 21:29:52< CIA-35> This allows the hotkey to work in the title screen.
20100920 21:29:58< CIA-35> mordante * r46635 /trunk/src/gui/dialogs/title_screen.cpp: Add already defined hotkeys to the title screen.
20100920 21:29:58< CIA-35> mordante * r46636 /trunk/src/gui/dialogs/title_screen.cpp: Enable preferences hotkey.
20100920 21:30:01< CIA-35> mordante * r46637 /trunk/ (4 files in 3 dirs): Add new hotkeys to the title screen buttons.
20100920 21:30:09< CIA-35> mordante * r46638 /trunk/src/gui/dialogs/title_screen.cpp: Also enable the quit hotkey in the title screen.
20100920 21:30:12< CIA-35> mordante * r46639 /trunk/changelog: Update changelog.
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20100920 21:42:26< CIA-35> anonymissimus * r46640 /trunk/data/core/macros/side-utils.cfg: Simplified CAPTURE_FILTERED_VILLAGES according to [capture_village] now accepting a SLF. Actually, it should be deprecated and substituted with the tag in the other macros which use it.
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20100920 21:44:18< boucman> zookeeper: about the bridge<=>forest glitch, shall I fix it in trunk, or do you want to fix it in your macros/in mainline yourself ?
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20100920 21:47:43< mordante> I'm off bye
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20100920 21:54:52< zookeeper> boucman, i can handle it
20100920 21:54:58< boucman> k
20100920 21:55:39< zookeeper> small forests need to get drawn when next to bridges, and that's it, right?
20100920 21:56:31< boucman> yes, I just added *^Bsb* in all the forest lines, it does the trick for me 
20100920 21:56:44< boucman> (not sure for wood bridge, I did it for stone bridge only
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20100920 22:04:22< zookeeper> yeah, the wood bridges need it too, i'll just use *^B*
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20100920 23:04:56< CIA-35> zookeeper * r46641 /trunk/data/core/terrain-graphics.cfg: Made forests use their small variants next to all bridges.
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20100920 23:15:03< boucman> night all
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20100920 23:49:09< Mica> Was I the only one that noticed that there isn't the snowy mountains (impassable) ?
20100920 23:51:21< SpoOkyMagician> there is in 1.9.*
20100920 23:52:07< Mica> Ah.
20100920 23:52:20< Mica> That's right, they kind of ignore 1.8.x once 1.9.x comes out xD
20100920 23:52:59< Ivanovic> Mica: once a new stable series is released the (WML)API is meant to stay stable
20100920 23:53:09< Ivanovic> this means not adding any images or even compeltely new terrains
20100920 23:53:28< Ivanovic> since addons written for 1.8.10 are meant to be 100% compatible with addons for 1.8.0
20100920 23:53:39< Mica> Ivanovic: I know, was just surprised it wasn't put in 1.8.x Was it not ready?
20100920 23:54:58< Ivanovic> no idea
20100920 23:55:15< Ivanovic> hey, 1.8.0 is about half a year old by now!
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20100920 23:55:47< Mica> Oh wow. Didn't realize. xD
20100920 23:56:13< SpoOkyMagician> really? time flies... :\
20100920 23:56:13< Ivanovic> okay, not completely but almost
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20100920 23:56:19< Ivanovic> since i release it on april 1st
20100920 23:56:31< SpoOkyMagician> heh good day to release it too. :P
20100920 23:56:46< SpoOkyMagician> everyone thought it was a joke
20100920 23:57:29< SpoOkyMagician> (april fools day)
20100920 23:58:23< Mica> the joke is that it's not!
20100920 23:58:31< SpoOkyMagician> indeed :P
20100920 23:59:54< Ivanovic> our real aprils fools day joke was a whole lot better than a fake release would have been
--- Log closed Tue Sep 21 00:00:06 2010