--- Log opened Thu Sep 23 00:00:20 2010
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20100923 00:26:39< shadowmaster> beetlenaut: I'm changing the forum's session management settings now for a while. You might experience issues with your session persistence.
20100923 00:28:20< shadowmaster> also, general notice: forum registrations are disabled, and regular operations are slowed down. This is deliberate. Please bear with me while I diagnose a little issue with spam.
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20100923 00:28:52< shadowmaster> aw, beetlenaut, you were disconnected too soon.
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20100923 00:31:13< shadowmaster>  account registrations re-enabled
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20100923 00:57:34< billynux> Ivanovic, I'm trying to stress-test the network connections... nothing so far, I committed some minor changes that could help in these bugs
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20100923 01:43:37< shadowmaster> mwahahahaha
20100923 01:44:05< shadowmaster> poor spammer is hitting the ban notice still..
20100923 01:44:51< shadowmaster> I guess I can safely go to play a game now.
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20100923 01:47:16< shadowmaster> wesbot: seen timotei
20100923 01:47:16< wesbot> shadowmaster: The person with the nick timotei last spoke 3d 11h ago.  3d 8h ago was here and on the channel #wesnoth-umc-dev with the message: Ping timeout: 240 seconds
20100923 01:47:22< anonymissimus> shadowmaster: could we have a "wml syntax changes thread" ?
20100923 01:47:30< shadowmaster> don't we already have one?
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20100923 01:47:39< anonymissimus> I know it's usually made when the beta series comes out
20100923 01:48:06< anonymissimus> but the changes shoudl be written at the point when they are made so that they don't get forgotten
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20100923 01:48:30< shadowmaster> you know that I won't disapprove of such a thing. the problem is getting developers to update a thread like that -- and considering they often forget to update the wiki or the *changelog*...
20100923 01:49:39< anonymissimus> well yes; I was quite surprised and pleased when discovering that you had implemented a SUF for [fire_event][primary_unit] etc :P
20100923 01:49:41< shadowmaster> now, if you feel like managing it on your own (and hopefully getting other people's help), I can give you moderator powers and make a new sticky in Workshop under the "Development Thread" umbrella account's ownership
20100923 01:49:53< shadowmaster> ...I thought I documented that? :(
20100923 01:50:01< anonymissimus> no you forgot ;)
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20100923 01:50:28< shadowmaster> I remember I once forgot to document some other change until 4 releases had passed.
20100923 01:50:49< anonymissimus> hehe
20100923 01:51:35< anonymissimus> although at present I could think only of Gambit's gold patch that would need to be mentioned in that thread
20100923 01:52:28< shadowmaster> I'm not aware of changes in trunk atm since I decided to take an indefinite break from WML coding, but I hope he updated the wiki at least.
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20100923 01:53:01< anonymissimus> he didn't commit it yet
20100923 01:54:48< anonymissimus> I'll poke Gambit that he makes it :P
20100923 01:54:54< anonymissimus> the thread
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20100923 10:10:26< Ivanovic> moin
20100923 10:10:48< timotei> morning Ivanovic 
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20100923 10:38:32< Ivanovic> Soliton: have you already recompiled wesnothd for 1.9.1?
20100923 10:38:55< Ivanovic> (that is based on the latest trunk sources since billynux *might* have improved the issues)
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20100923 11:25:30< Soliton> the commit from yesterday should help some at least. i'll recompile.
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20100923 12:57:25< CIA-35> ivanovic * r46660 /branches/1.8/ (96 files in 24 dirs): 
20100923 12:57:25< CIA-35> pot-update (no new/changed strings)
20100923 12:57:25< CIA-35> regenerated doc files
20100923 12:59:45< Ivanovic> Soliton: for more stuff in those regards i'd guess that a new report with a fresh bt would make sense
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20100923 13:46:11< CIA-35> esr * r46661 /trunk/data/ (3 files in 2 dirs): Improve typechecking for the new terrain macros.
20100923 13:49:07< Soliton> dev and trunk server restarted with newest network code.
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20100923 13:54:32< AI0867> is that why the forum is so slow atm?
20100923 13:55:47< Soliton> no.
20100923 13:57:24< Rhonda> AI0867: That's the honeypot for exhaustive forum spammers like you.
20100923 13:57:25< CIA-35> esr * r46662 /trunk/data/tools/wesnoth/wmltools.py: Another what at matching wildcarded names.
20100923 13:57:37< esr> zookeeper: You there?
20100923 13:59:27< zookeeper> esr, what's up?
20100923 14:00:47< esr> zookeeper: I'm trying to make the sanity checkers run clean after the last set og terrain macro changes.  Mostly this just involved changing a couple of macro formal names, but there's an exceprion.
20100923 14:01:55< esr> zookeeper: Will pastebin momentarily.
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20100923 14:05:32< esr> zookeeper: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com/Z3qVTqbh
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20100923 14:06:19< esr> zookeeper: Either those are genuinely unmatched or there's a wildcarding rule that wmlscope does not yet understand.
20100923 14:07:22< zookeeper> esr, well, i bet that wmlscope can't expand the @R0 notation
20100923 14:08:10< zookeeper> if you look at the NEW:FOREST macro for example...
20100923 14:09:24< zookeeper> the name={IMAGESTEM}@V.png means that it'll replace @V with any of the numbers listed in variations=";2;3;4;5;6;7;8;9;10;11" below
20100923 14:09:42< zookeeper> and the same for @R0, except that it'll use the values given in the rotations= key
20100923 14:10:33< esr> Is the regexep for both expansions [0-9;]+ ? 
20100923 14:10:37< zookeeper> so if i have rotations=n,ne,se,s,sw,nw then @R0 will expand to n initially, then ne on the next rotation, then se, and @R1 expands to ne initially, then se on the next rotation, etc...
20100923 14:10:58< zookeeper> no, values can be anything, even for variations= i think
20100923 14:11:23< esr> Hm.  OK, I'll try that.
20100923 14:11:57< boucman> esr: @V is new, but @R has been around for a long time, so you probably have some code handling that part somewhere
20100923 14:12:49< zookeeper> boucman, probably wmlscope only started checking those after the .png were added
20100923 14:13:13< esr> zookeeper is correct.
20100923 14:13:15< zookeeper> presumably it ignored those before since it didn't think they were image references
20100923 14:13:33< zookeeper> but frankly, i don't think if it's worth it to try to make wmlscope understand all that notation
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20100923 14:14:03< esr> An alternative it tell it to ignore those references.
20100923 14:14:17< esr> s/it tell/is to tell/
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20100923 14:14:38< zookeeper> sounds good to me. anyone who touches those damn sure better know what they're doing and be super careful anyway, so wmlscope checking seems a bit redundant
20100923 14:14:55< zookeeper> especially when it'd probably be hard to do anyway
20100923 14:15:14< boucman> well, if it's delicate, it's the place we want wmlscope the most :P
20100923 14:15:52< boucman> however the fact that an image is missing is a feature in terrain macro, it's normal, so I think making wmlscope ignore name= makes sense
20100923 14:15:59< zookeeper> well, it's delicate enough that if you mess something up, the terrain probably gets very visibly messed up in which case it gets noticed immediately
20100923 14:16:15< esr> boucman: All I could do is coinsider those references to everyting in the definition list that potentually matches wehen you replace @R0 and @V with wildcards.
20100923 14:16:32< esr> That's not super useful.
20100923 14:17:32< esr> But I'll try it and see what the results look like.
20100923 14:18:43< zookeeper> but sure, if you can make a line like that pass the check if _any_ of the possible images exists, then that'd be ok, i guess
20100923 14:19:05< esr> Trying that.
20100923 14:20:06< zookeeper> i'd still expect it to result in some "false" positives, but we'll see
20100923 14:20:21< esr> Testing now.
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20100923 14:22:26< zookeeper> ah, actually that should result in _lots_ of false positives in transitions
20100923 14:22:46< zookeeper> in internal-border.cfg
20100923 14:23:07< esr> zookeeper: Yo mean false matches between wildcarded references and actual images?
20100923 14:23:07< zookeeper> and internal-generic.cfg
20100923 14:24:10< zookeeper> esr, i mean that there's lots and lots of [terrain_graphics] used (especially for transitions) which reference images (or a set of images, using @R and @V) none of which exist
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20100923 14:25:53< zookeeper> hard to explain, but basically a lot of the whole system relies on the fact that if the image isn't found, the rule isn't applied at all
20100923 14:26:14< zookeeper> and that doesn't only mean missing variations or missing rotation variants, the whole set of images can be missing
20100923 14:26:22< esr> Dunno what to do about that.  wmlscope are running clean now, so the immediatrte problem is solved; we're back to where we were before, with wmlscope on wildcarses images not yielding very useful info.  Is there any more restrictive wildcard than .* I could use?
20100923 14:26:29< boucman> yes, the logic is to try to fit the most complicated stuff first and if it doesn't exist, then move to simpler stuff
20100923 14:26:36< zookeeper> huh. how can it run clean on that stuff?
20100923 14:26:46< boucman> that allows artists to just drop files following the naming convention to test stuff
20100923 14:27:33< boucman> esr: it might be usefull to check that filenames end in .png, but that's the only thing I see at this point
20100923 14:27:42< esr> zookeeper: Probably becase {VARNAME} also goes to .* - resulting wildcards could match almost anything.
20100923 14:27:50< zookeeper> right
20100923 14:28:34< esr> And indeed, "ending in a graphics file extensioon" is about the only thing a regexp that loose actually verifies.
20100923 14:28:58< zookeeper> well, if it's clean then great ;) i'm not sure if it's possible to meaningfully wmlscope-check that stuff
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20100923 14:29:40< CIA-35> esr * r46663 /trunk/data/tools/wesnoth/wmltools.py: Introduce wildcarding for @R0 and @V.
20100923 14:29:49< esr> zookeeper: I'm doubtful of that myself, that's why I said earlier that the wildcard matches don't really return useful info.
20100923 14:31:13< esr> All this is reminding me that I really need to clean up the conventions for macro formals.  The typematching rules have become an ugly mess.
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20100923 14:42:39< alink> hi
20100923 14:45:08< alink> esr: yeah allowing missing image is a terrain-graphics feature, reporting them seems not useful 
20100923 14:45:55< alink> esr: also note that we also allow  "foo.png~IPF(bar)" and "foo.png:100,bar.png:200"
20100923 14:46:33< esr> alink: wmllint fails to trip over those because the don't *end* in .png.
20100923 14:46:57< esr> Thus it doesn't try to resolve those strings as image references.
20100923 14:47:13< esr> (Sorry, wmlscope.)
20100923 14:48:29< alink> esr: one thing possibly usefull is to report terrain image files never used in any terrain-graphics rules. So, if someone draw nice transitions but the some WML update breaks and fails to use them, wml tools will warn us
20100923 14:48:51< alink> that is check images in "terrain/"
20100923 14:49:28< esr> Let me run make images-unused
20100923 14:49:50< alink> esr: this need to understand @R and @V to works
20100923 14:50:01< esr> Oh, ick. I explicitly exclde terrain/ from that check.
20100923 14:50:15< alink> so, it's some work and maybe not worth it
20100923 14:50:46< esr> I remember now.  I tried to make that work some years back and my head asploded. :-)  Pain not worth gain.
20100923 14:51:58< alink> yeah it's complex stuff
20100923 14:57:55< esr> FYI, here's rthe current list of unused image files.
20100923 14:57:58< esr> http://wesnoth.pastebin.com/Bmiwzc5s
20100923 14:58:41< esr> Hm, at least one of those is a false negative.
20100923 15:05:12< CIA-35> esr * r46664 /trunk/data/ (77 files in 22 dirs): Reindent mainline.
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20100923 15:41:19 * fendrin filled a feature request. Anyone want to go after https://gna.org/bugs/?16748?
20100923 15:42:26< fendrin> working link: https://gna.org/bugs/?16748
20100923 15:42:48< boucman> not being a WML author, I don't even understand the request :P
20100923 15:45:03< alink> fendrin: note that implies new cache reload before starting MP game (after being in the MP Lobby). At least when a different #ifdef is used
20100923 15:45:52< fendrin> alink: Yes I thought so. Do you think that is a too heavy change?
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20100923 15:46:05< alink> but I welcome splitting #MULTIPLAYER since it can become huge when many eras are installed
20100923 15:46:06< boucman> alink: that might be a good idea, since it means we don't need to load most of WML at lobby time, and we probably have a much smaller subset to load at gamestart
20100923 15:46:18< anonymissimus> fendrin: that graps deeply into the preprocessor structure of the engine probably
20100923 15:47:22< anonymissimus> are there no #ifdefs allowed at all ? or do you refer to the cmapaign ifdefs only ? (I never do multiplayer stuff...)
20100923 15:47:53< fendrin> anonymissimus: Sorry, I don't get your question. Please be more precise.
20100923 15:47:59< alink> yeah, I just mentioned it because it may change the easiness of starting MP games, but I don't play MP, so no idea if relevant
20100923 15:49:07< Ivanovic> boucman, alink: and we would reduce the amount of ram really required for a game with addons installed
20100923 15:49:52< anonymissimus> fendrin: you can do #ifdef CAMPAIGN in singleplayer, or #ifdef HARD etc, I know that #ifdef CAMPAIGN is not possible in multiplayer
20100923 15:50:17< alink> yes it will reduce memory usage and make loading faster, but also make loading more frequent and multiply the number of cache on disks (as add-on SP campaigns already do)
20100923 15:50:44< alink> but I don't say that it's a bad idea, just mentioning the side-effects
20100923 15:50:53< fendrin> anonymissimus: Well, #ifdefs work like expected in multiplayer as well, It's just that there is no gui to enable the define. The feature request is asking for exactly that.
20100923 15:51:43< alink> fendrin: you mean "no *WML* to enable the define"
20100923 15:52:00< fendrin> alink: No, I mean there is no gui to enable the define.
20100923 15:52:45< fendrin> alink: Of course the gui needs a wml backpart that defines which defines are to be set.
20100923 15:52:48< alink> well, I assume that joining a game using special define will just reload the cache using it
20100923 15:52:56< alink> (assuming user has the addon)
20100923 15:53:07< anonymissimus> having the same preprocessor scope for multiplayer is a bad thing since several add-ons can quickly interfere with each other, silene certainly considered splitting it up per-addon somewhen...
20100923 15:53:40< anonymissimus> and since he didn't it must be too complicated or something I guess
20100923 15:54:14< fendrin> I have also the mod implementation in mind. 
20100923 15:59:08< fendrin> alink: If multiple caches are a problem that could be solved by making the caches stackable for both use cases.
20100923 16:01:07< fendrin> wesbot: seen mordante?
20100923 16:01:07< wesbot> fendrin: The person with the nick mordante last spoke 2d 18h ago.  2d 18h ago was here and on the channel #wesnoth-de with the message: Quit: Leaving
20100923 16:02:29< alink> "multiple caches on disk" is a detail, and since SP campaign + difficulties have the same, that's not new (just increase it). And if it's a real problem, then we need some global cache management (like deleting old unused caches)
20100923 16:03:05< fendrin> alink: That is what I wanted to say :-)
20100923 16:03:53< alink> but "multiple caches to build and load" may be more annoying, since any change of difficulty/era/etc will triggers a reload (and sometimes rebuild) 
20100923 16:05:21< alink> I assume that a SP user will often play the same difficulty level, but when playing MP, he needs to adapt to what other players want
20100923 16:07:05< fendrin> alink: Well, most of what is needed to bring up the mp lobby in which the players interact to find a fitting setup will have to move into the [multiplayer_setup] tag.
20100923 16:07:49< fendrin> alink: That comes in handy since the normal multiplayer setup just doesn't fit for multiplayer campaigns much. 
20100923 16:08:48< alink> yeah, the WML part should not be hard, it's probably more a MP Lobby / UI task
20100923 16:10:09< alink> (not hard, because just need to copy/paste/adapt/ MULTIPLAYER define and SP CAMPAIGN defines
20100923 16:10:15< alink> + code)
20100923 16:10:49< alink> anyway, bbl
20100923 16:20:25< CIA-35> anonymissimus * r46665 /trunk/ (data/lua/wml-tags.lua src/game_events.cpp): 
20100923 16:20:25< CIA-35> Allowed events to be fired conditionally via[event][condition] (see FutureWML).
20100923 16:20:25< CIA-35> Ment to be used when values of variables unrelated to filtered units shall be
20100923 16:20:25< CIA-35> queried, otherwise lua_function would need to be misused for this. Allows for
20100923 16:20:25< CIA-35> simplification/splitting up into events for events with structure
20100923 16:20:25< CIA-35> [event][if][variable][then][else].
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20100923 16:21:50< anonymissimus> maybe some senior dev shoulc have a look at that, works fine for me so far
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20100923 16:30:23< CIA-35> esr * r46666 /trunk/data/campaigns/An_Orcish_Incursion/maps/02_Assassins.map: Address bug #16634: AOI: Unreachable castle tile in scenario 2.
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20100923 16:39:19< CIA-35> anonymissimus * r46667 /trunk/changelog: changelog entry for previous commit
20100923 16:46:01< anonymissimus> esr: ragrding your comment in http://gna.org/bugs/?16743 : ok, but what would be an appropiate ingore directive here ? please add it then
20100923 16:46:38< esr> anonymissimus: wmlscope isn't throwing a nmessage about this.  Where does that code live?
20100923 16:47:11< anonymissimus> that code is in my addon
20100923 16:47:24< anonymissimus> it's a real case, somewhat annoying
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20100923 16:49:20< esr> anonymissimus: Checking.
20100923 16:49:20< anonymissimus> here's the actual event: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com/TjtXX8LW
20100923 16:50:38< anonymissimus> note that "some certain wml isn't in mainline" is not a too-good argument; there can be add-ons which have a lot more complcated wml than mainline, look at IftU
20100923 16:50:53< anonymissimus> afk a while
20100923 16:51:39< esr> anonymissimus: Yes, but I have to draw the line somewhere.  And I choose to draw ity here: if I can't reproduce it by checking mainline, it dodn't happen. ;-)
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20100923 17:28:56< Soliton> OT: http://cygwin.ru/ml/binutils/2009-06/msg00016.html  anyone heard/know anything about that?  so i have a binary with a symbol (coming from a local static var) that is of type "u". so far so good. now if i copy that binary to a system (with an older binutils) i get an undefined symbol error when trying to execute it. presumably that really means it doesn't know the symbol type. before updating my system (i.e. binutils, gcc etc) the
20100923 17:29:02< Soliton> symbol used to be of type "V".
20100923 17:29:58< Soliton> now i guess i'm looking for a way to tell gcc or whoever to use symbol type "V" again to stay compatible with older systems.
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20100923 17:33:16< Soliton> well, actually not that offtopic since it probably can/will happen for wesnoth, too. :-)
20100923 17:33:40< Soliton> not sure if we're using local statics somewhere though.
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20100923 17:40:12< CIA-35> fendrin * r46668 /trunk/data/campaigns/Legend_of_Wesmere/scenarios/ (5 files): LoW: preset Gold for multiplayer difficult levels.
20100923 17:40:45< CIA-35> fendrin * r46669 /trunk/data/campaigns/Legend_of_Wesmere/maps/ (7 files): LoW maps: Updates to the maps.
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20100923 17:45:41< loonycyborg> Soliton: How does this situation actually manifest itself? (in case I'll encounter it myself)
20100923 17:46:02< loonycyborg> I.e. what error messages appear.
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20100923 17:50:28< zookeeper> anonymissimus, great change \o/ i'll test it out ASAP when i get a new build
20100923 17:50:43< anonymissimus> :)
20100923 17:51:25< anonymissimus> I also wonder abaut [terrain], should we change terrain= back to letter= and then make a SLF
20100923 17:51:43< zookeeper> finally i don't need to write hacks when all i want is a one-time event (partially) based on a variable, not just the unit
20100923 17:51:56< anonymissimus> I'd make it so that for some versions terrain= wouldn't work and a warning is omitted
20100923 17:53:45< anonymissimus> as for [condition], it can be misused to do things like [variable]name=unit.id equals= instead of filtering
20100923 17:54:02< anonymissimus> don't know how bad that is however
20100923 17:54:03< zookeeper> anonymissimus, not sure. would it be possible to simply discard the terrain= key when getting the SLF from [terrain]?
20100923 17:54:37< zookeeper> then, if you really wanted to for example change all Gg to Ww, you could still do [terrain] [and] terrain=Gg [/and] terrain=Ww [/terrain]
20100923 17:55:15< alink> teleport(to a fogged owned village) is the only way to walk in a fogged hex, right?
20100923 17:55:43< zookeeper> alink, can't think of any other ways
20100923 17:55:47< anonymissimus> zookeeper: yes using [and] should work
20100923 17:56:11< alink> zookeeper: ok thanks, seems obvious, but I want to be sure, since it's for 1.8 bugfix
20100923 17:56:13< zookeeper> anonymissimus, ok, that sounds like what i'd suggest then
20100923 17:56:25< anonymissimus> zookeeper: but in the long run, the meaning of [terrain]terrain= must be that of the SLF
20100923 17:56:31< zookeeper> alink, well, there's always WML teleports and such too
20100923 17:56:49< zookeeper> anonymissimus, why?
20100923 17:57:04< anonymissimus> because it would be an exception
20100923 17:57:23< alink> zookeeper: yes, but that's ok my problem is just for move and delayed-shroud
20100923 17:57:44< zookeeper> anonymissimus, well, sure...
20100923 17:58:37< alink> (teleported units get lost in fog when using delay shroud :-/ )
20100923 18:00:16< zookeeper> alink, how are you going to fix that?
20100923 18:00:19< CIA-35> alink * r46670 /branches/1.8/src/mouse_events.cpp: 
20100923 18:00:19< CIA-35> Backport simplified version of r46139 (fix crash when teleport+attack from fogged village)
20100923 18:00:19< CIA-35> But not enough for 1.8 (fog glitch), more in next commit.
20100923 18:00:29< boucman> alink: recruiting on very long castles, maybe...
20100923 18:00:52< zookeeper> true!
20100923 18:00:55< zookeeper> good catch
20100923 18:04:28< alink> boucman: yes indeed, tricky case. For the moment it's purely a move bug, but I will test recruit after that
20100923 18:05:47< alink> zookeeper: i have a simple non-intrusive fix (entering fogged village triggers fog update), but not perfect yet
20100923 18:06:33< alink> (small animation problem, the fog update at the end of the move, so the last part is done under fog)
20100923 18:06:48< alink> but that's already better than fog update at all
20100923 18:06:56< alink> *no fog update
20100923 18:07:16< boucman> hmm, can you find out how large a castle is under shroud by right clicking on hex and seeing where recruit is allowed ?
20100923 18:09:54< alink> boucman: possibly, I don't see check shroud in this code, but simpler to directly test it
20100923 18:12:41< alink> there is also the tricky case of visible castle, but connection to keep is under shroud
20100923 18:15:41< esr> I'm gertting startup failures with this message: error config: Illegal character in map: (Mm^Vhm) 'Mm^Vhm'
20100923 18:15:50 * alink hates working on 1.8 where he can't just rewrite bad code :-/
20100923 18:16:33< zookeeper> esr, not starting any specific campaign or MP?
20100923 18:17:00< esr> I was loading a Northern Rebirth save to work on a bug report.
20100923 18:17:14< zookeeper> in that case your save is too old
20100923 18:17:22< esr> Shit.
20100923 18:17:52< zookeeper> however
20100923 18:17:52< boucman> wesbot: seen gabba
20100923 18:17:52< wesbot> boucman: The person with the nick gabba last spoke 10d 20h ago.  10d 20h ago person left:
20100923 18:18:00< boucman> :(
20100923 18:18:06< zookeeper> you can replace  Mm^Vhm with Mm^Vhh and it should work the same
20100923 18:18:13< esr> Does this have to do with those terrain code changes you had me make?
20100923 18:18:18< zookeeper> yep
20100923 18:18:54< alink> thunder, bbl
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20100923 18:25:52< anonymissimus> esr: I've posted some other reproducing code in https://gna.org/bugs/?16743; if I can't convince you I'm forced to modify wmllint privately :P
20100923 18:28:33< zookeeper> esr, so did you get it working?
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20100923 18:29:35< esr> zookeeper: Yes.
20100923 18:30:19< esr> anonymissimus: No need.  Resync; I've added "deathcheck off" and "deathcheck on" directives that should suffice.
20100923 18:30:34< anonymissimus> ok, thx :)
20100923 18:30:46< noy> zookeeper: around?
20100923 18:31:13< zookeeper> noy, yeah
20100923 18:31:52< noy> I need something from you if you have some time
20100923 18:32:13< zookeeper> sure, what is it?
20100923 18:32:33< noy> I need an example of WML code that I can put into a book that shows how easy it is to modify it... preferably for a unit. 
20100923 18:33:28< noy> Anything less than one page would be great. 
20100923 18:34:02< zookeeper> ok... so a piece of WML which does something specific and is easily understandable?
20100923 18:35:47< zookeeper> does it matter if there's a lot of dialogue and such (which you can rip out if necessary)?
20100923 18:35:48< noy> well yeah...
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20100923 18:36:46< zookeeper> noy, how's something like this? http://wesnoth.pastebin.com/7xNYXmwh
20100923 18:37:15< noy> yeah, but simpler
20100923 18:37:19< noy> I don't need so much text
20100923 18:37:31< zookeeper> ok, but if you just take out some text yourself to make it shorter?
20100923 18:37:36< noy> (text=Dialogue)
20100923 18:38:02< noy> well I'm pretty bad at wml 
20100923 18:38:13< noy> so I don't want to ruin the code :p
20100923 18:38:54< zookeeper> uh, ok... how's this? http://wesnoth.pastebin.com/3pUKhrW6
20100923 18:39:20< zookeeper> i mean, if you don't want all that speech there then just replace the text with whatever you want
20100923 18:40:49< anonymissimus> zookeeper: you know how to use [condition] ? everything in [if] should be valid
20100923 18:41:15< zookeeper> anonymissimus, yes, i figured that's how it works
20100923 18:43:01< anonymissimus> (that is, [variable], [and] etc, not [then] of [else] ;))
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20100923 18:43:40< zookeeper> well i wasn't intending on trying to put a [then] there anyway :p
20100923 18:46:32< noy> hm
20100923 18:46:44< noy> I'll get back to you
20100923 18:47:23< zookeeper> okay
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20100923 18:48:24< CIA-35> fendrin * r46671 /trunk/data/campaigns/Legend_of_Wesmere/ (9 files in 2 dirs): LoW: Corrected missing macro undefines.
20100923 18:52:43< fendrin> noy: Maybe I can code something for you?
20100923 18:52:56< noy> I don't need a code... its more an illustrative example
20100923 18:53:05< noy> like it doesn't really need to do anything
20100923 18:53:22< fendrin> noy: That sounds even more easy.
20100923 18:53:36< noy> Its for a book chapter
20100923 18:53:50< fendrin> What kind of book are you writing?
20100923 18:54:18< noy> Basically I've said that WML enables new people with minimal coding experience to write scenarios
20100923 18:54:42< noy> its a chapter on initial design decisions for wesnoth.
20100923 18:54:52< CIA-35> thespaceinvader * r46672 /trunk/ (12 files in 4 dirs): Add and wire new standing anim for Fencer by Atz. Update changelogs, credits.
20100923 18:56:11< fendrin> noy: Well, you may consider to demonstrate a simple scenario that introduces two side declarations and some simple events which make up some victory conditions.
20100923 18:56:42< noy> well it has to be under a page
20100923 18:56:47< noy> at least
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20100923 18:57:25< fendrin> noy: Sounds doable.
20100923 18:57:44< noy> well I'll leave it up to you if you wish
20100923 18:57:55< fendrin> How many lines is a page in your book?
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20100923 19:03:43< fendrin> noy: ^
20100923 19:04:03< noy> uh... I think 50 something
20100923 19:04:46< noy> if you can make it around 40 something that offers me the opportunity to write a small description
20100923 19:04:51< fendrin> noy: Oh, that is pretty small.
20100923 19:04:55< noy> yeah...
20100923 19:05:58< fendrin> Well, if it doesn't need to work. 
20100923 19:06:26< noy> well it sorta needs to work
20100923 19:06:30< noy> it has to be illustrative
20100923 19:07:20< noy> does that make sense?
20100923 19:08:00< fendrin> I will try out to find a minimal working setup. And see if there is room for some very basic events.
20100923 19:08:17< noy> setup might not be that important
20100923 19:09:48< fendrin> So no side definitions and no scenario setup?
20100923 19:10:14< fendrin> What kind of demonstration would you like to see?
20100923 19:10:46< noy> Well the overall point is how WML facilitates new users to contribute to the program
20100923 19:11:06< noy> partly because its easier to program than C++
20100923 19:12:04< fendrin> Well, it's not easier to programm than c++. If you want to do anything more algorithmically you need to use lua.
20100923 19:12:31< fendrin> It is just an easy language to setup wesnoth scenarios or to define wesnoth data sets.
20100923 19:13:25< fendrin> It's the event system that makes wml really powerful. I want to suggest demonstrating events and filters.
20100923 19:19:08< Soliton> loonycyborg: undefined symbol: <symbol XYZ>
20100923 19:20:08< noy> You're saying WML is harder to learn than C++?
20100923 19:20:50< Soliton> the interesting part then would be that mentioned symbol is not coming from some dynamically linked object.
20100923 19:21:23< Soliton> and nm displays it as type "u".
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20100923 19:22:59< noy> fendrin: ^
20100923 19:23:17< Soliton> on newer systems that is on old ones it'd be "?".
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20100923 19:24:52< rigved> seen Crab_
20100923 19:25:14< rigved> seen _Crab
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20100923 19:29:48< Soliton> noy: he probably means that the algorithmic part is not WML's strong point. it's better for just declaring stuff.
20100923 19:30:07< noy> I think I got that... 
20100923 19:30:26< noy> but I wanted to make clear the point I was making about ease of use for new individuals
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20100923 19:31:04< Soliton> well, the point is that WML is awkward to use for some things which is then not so easy/straight forward.
20100923 19:31:44< Soliton> in general for what it's intended it is indeed easy to use.
20100923 19:31:58< Soliton> not comparable with C++.
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20100923 19:33:21< zookeeper> it depends on the individual. people with any programming background have it really easy (i think), but people who haven't done any programming before will still find it confusing and need a long time to learn it; if for nothing else then due to the lack of a good guide or tutorial.
20100923 19:33:42< fendrin> noy: What zookeeper and Soliton said.
20100923 19:34:54< noy> I've asked you for what I want Fendrin. Talking about the event system is useless for my purposes because thats not what I've written about. 
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20100923 19:37:30< fendrin> noy: Well, there is easy scenario setup via wml and event coding that is supported well, if you don't want both, there is nothing left that can be done in wml easy.
20100923 19:37:56< noy> Easy scenario is fine. 
20100923 19:38:15< fendrin> Cool, I will try to get it into the 40 lines.
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20100923 20:06:49< alink> mmh I wonder if that 1.8 teleport-in-fog glitch is really a true bug needing a fix (now that the crash is fixed), because it just require a manual fog update after the teleport, which almost make sense
20100923 20:08:17< alink> my one-liner change should be safe, but that's in a 400 lines monster function (probably the biggest of wesnoth), and it's a tricky area
20100923 20:09:42< alink> and no users reported it yet this teleport with delay shroud update thing, so that's probably no big deal. So I will stay on the safe side, and don't touch that
20100923 20:13:17< CIA-35> alink * r46673 /branches/1.8/changelog: 
20100923 20:13:17< CIA-35> update changelog
20100923 20:13:17< CIA-35> previous commit (r46670) is in fact final, the small fog update glitch will stay
20100923 20:15:37-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: 159 bugs, 300 feature requests, 16 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
20100923 20:15:59< alink> shadowmaster: about r46627, to avoid this kind of typo, it's better to use (long stuff != ok) instead of !(long stuff == ok)
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20100923 21:53:37< alink> \o/  wesnoth rendered with (bad slow) OpenGL :  http://i.imgur.com/YEGWF.jpg  (with few glitches) 
20100923 21:56:32< alink> only a experiment for the moment, to see what are the problems and to get an OpenGL context for testing new rendering methods and still get unadapted parts visible
20100923 21:59:30< alink> the hack just translate SDL calls to OpenGL commands (and discard few rarely used tricky ones like those reading from framebuffer)
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20100923 22:13:31< Ivanovic> alink: not bad IMO
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20100923 22:20:51< alink> Ivanovic: yeah it works better than I expected, the main things are rendered the same, but framerate is ~3x lower
20100923 22:21:54< alink> but that doesn't even use texture or video memory, so that's normal
20100923 22:23:22< alink> but I probably already have zoom for free
20100923 22:24:19-!- fendrin [~fabi@wesnoth/developer/fendrin] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
20100923 22:24:21< stikonas> it is nice, that you managed separate SDL->OpenGL transition into a few steps.
20100923 22:24:54< alink> yes it's about 1 page of code, mostly to handle clipping
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20100923 22:25:52< alink> and just checked, zoom seems free
20100923 22:25:53< Ivanovic> i am close to saying "man, get this stuff commited and work on improving it!
20100923 22:26:24< Ivanovic> what about animations?
20100923 22:26:30< Ivanovic> how much do they impact things?
20100923 22:26:48< alink> no, it's just a ugly hack, and I am not sure yet that I want to start this project now
20100923 22:27:37< alink> Ivanovic: it's the same old invalidation system, all is the same but with slower blit
20100923 22:27:55< Ivanovic> okay
20100923 22:28:00< alink> but animation works
20100923 22:29:52< alink> I suspect that losing SDL RLE acceleration cost me, so I should work on killing all these fully transparent terrain images first
20100923 22:30:27< alink> with SDL RLE, they were just "0 pixels, nothing to blit", now there is 72x72 pixels to read each times
20100923 22:32:55< alink> plus the "3x slower" is similar is consistent with old SDL without RLE
20100923 22:33:43< alink> but now I can render 3D units on top of the view :-)
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20100923 22:38:25< Ivanovic> hey, then the speed you get is a *great* result
20100923 22:38:48< Ivanovic> considering that it is just a 1:1 dropin i would not expect it to be faster
20100923 22:39:54< Ivanovic> alink: you don't plan to visit fosdem in febuary, do yoU?
20100923 22:40:50< Ivanovic> (that is if you started working on the opengl port "for real" fosdem could be a good time to get further problems and optimizations done since most likely boucman and mordante will be around then, too
20100923 22:41:35< alink> not idea, february is in a long time
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20100923 22:42:19< alink> but I am not sure yet that I want to start this OpenGL stuff
20100923 22:42:54< alink> first, I am trying to evaluate its viability, thus this hack
20100923 22:43:58< alink> which mainly consist to have an mixed or intermediate engine, allowing progressive transition
20100923 22:45:13< esr> OpenGL would replace the SDL primitives?
20100923 22:45:54< alink> yes and no, we will probably always use SDL for internal image manipulation (like reading png)
20100923 22:46:20< alink> but you can't mix OpenGL and SDL rendering
20100923 22:46:49< alink> that is one you start using OpenGL, you must stop using SDL for *rendering*
20100923 22:46:57< alink> s/one/once
20100923 22:47:22 * esr nods
20100923 22:48:27< esr> Not an expert in that area.  But I do get the feeling we've outgrown SDL and need to move to something that takes better advantage or hardware texture mapping.
20100923 22:48:39< esr> s/or/of/
20100923 22:49:50< Ivanovic> i think we are getting close to where basically everything in the game window is animated (map potion that is)
20100923 22:49:52< alink> IMO we could optimize current content enough for 1.10, but content keeps growing, so it's always more work, and there is indeed a limit
20100923 22:50:05< Ivanovic> in such a case we produce a rather high cpu load with "software rendering only"
20100923 22:50:20 * esr agrees
20100923 22:50:42< Ivanovic> sure, this is easily managable in some smaller screen resolution with common cpus
20100923 22:51:02< Ivanovic> but once we go towards eg 1920x1200 we go get some significant cpu usage with "everything animated"
20100923 22:51:54< esr> Heh.  2048x1536 - I'm already there.
20100923 22:52:35< alink> yeah, but when switching to openGL a complex choice is : do we refresh the whole screen each time (as most opengl app do), or just what changed (as we do now)
20100923 22:53:40< Ivanovic> alink: we are already at "not usable!" for me
20100923 22:53:52< Ivanovic> just started in 1920x1200 with the --fps switch
20100923 22:54:05< Ivanovic> loaded a savegame of isle of the damned in 1.9.1
20100923 22:54:11< Ivanovic> got 12 to 13fps
20100923 22:54:14< Ivanovic> Sysinfo for 'rechner1': Linux 2.6.35.4 running KDE Development Platform 4.5.1 (KDE 4.5.1), CPU: AMD Phenom II X6 1055T at 800 MHz (5625 bogomips), HD: 317/1250GB, RAM: 1234/3960MB, 199 proc's, 1.8h up
20100923 22:54:36< alink> but your cpu sleeps when nothing is animated
20100923 22:54:40< Ivanovic> (the cpu should clock up to at least 2.8GHz or even 3.3GHz if turbo mode works as intended)
20100923 22:54:47< Ivanovic> there is animation, the water
20100923 22:54:58< Ivanovic> and like i said, 13fps with animations
20100923 22:55:10< Ivanovic> that is not the desired 50fps that i get in 1024x768
20100923 22:55:16< Ivanovic> and yeah, it does in fact feel sluggish
20100923 22:55:46< alink> 13 fps with 1.9.1 ?
20100923 22:56:18< alink> try :benchmark
20100923 23:01:36< anonymissimus> alink: btw I notice that wesnoth eats up lots of cpu when on the scenario-introducin title screen, teh one where the map is shown usually
20100923 23:01:46< anonymissimus> a minor issue though
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20100923 23:02:17< alink> anonymissimus: you mean the story screen ?
20100923 23:02:24< anonymissimus> yes
20100923 23:02:52< loonycyborg> Wesnoth logo seems to really take much time to 'expand'.
20100923 23:03:13< alink> I worked there in the past, but I not familiar with the new story code there
20100923 23:03:29< anonymissimus> in comparison to the cpu required when after the objectives have shown then
20100923 23:03:40< anonymissimus> in both cases wesnoth is idle
20100923 23:03:48< alink> loonycyborg: we will fix that, at least I proposed a possible fix to mordante
20100923 23:04:01< loonycyborg> I once got similar speed of expansion when I run wesnoth through X11 forwarding from a remote machine.
20100923 23:04:14< loonycyborg> *ran
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20100923 23:05:01< loonycyborg> Will opengl prevent remote X11 sessions from working? :P
20100923 23:05:17< alink> loonycyborg: that's why I proposed to define a duration (instead of speed) and auto modulate the speed to end in that time
20100923 23:05:27< Ivanovic> alink: using 1.9.1 with --fps and :benchmark
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20100923 23:05:48< Ivanovic> i get above 100fps in the top right corner of isle of the damned in 1024x768
20100923 23:05:49< alink> (:benchmark auto enable --fps and --fps-max 1000)
20100923 23:06:00< Ivanovic> above 60fps in 1280x1024
20100923 23:06:29< Ivanovic> and between 25 and 40 in 1680x1050 (all windowed, composite of kde is currently deactivated!)
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20100923 23:07:16< alink> Ivanovic: ok that's about the same as me, and more as I expected 
20100923 23:07:29< Ivanovic> in 1920x1136 i gt between 20 and 32fps when doing nothing
20100923 23:07:38< alink> btw benchmark is a stress test and doesn't reflect normal use
20100923 23:07:48< Ivanovic> goes down to 15 and less when moving the (nicerlooking, non hardware) mousecursor around
20100923 23:08:12< alink> Ivanovic: without scrolling ?
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20100923 23:08:17< esr> zookeeper: I just started Dead Water. Fords and coastal reefs have tutned brown; is this intentional?
20100923 23:08:27< alink> Ivanovic: cursor should not have such impact
20100923 23:08:47< Ivanovic> sorry, not 15 but it just toggles somewhere between 25 and 17
20100923 23:08:51< Ivanovic> drops when scrolling
20100923 23:09:38< alink> Ivanovic: yeah the fps is the mean fps on the last 10 frames or something like that
20100923 23:10:31< Ivanovic> brb, looks like i managed to somehow kill my ability to run composite...
20100923 23:10:51< alink> and I need to go eat a 3D sandwich
20100923 23:11:03< Ivanovic> hehe
20100923 23:13:34< Ivanovic> alink: anyway, regarding the speed we currently have with "all animated" areas i'd say that further optimizations don't make too much sense
20100923 23:13:45< Ivanovic> something more drastical is most likely required
20100923 23:17:25< zookeeper> esr, yes
20100923 23:18:28< esr> zookeeper: Is it going to stay that way?  I think it looks really uggly.  A lot of the visual appeal of DW was in the subtle contrast between sea and coastal reefs.
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20100923 23:20:00< zookeeper> esr, well, complain to eleazzaar. although i don't think he's easily persuaded by "i think it looks ugly" ;)
20100923 23:21:02< zookeeper> anyway, i'm not sure if he's planning on having the tropical/medium/gray variants for fords and reefs too
20100923 23:21:09< zookeeper> if yes, then there shouldn't be any problem
20100923 23:21:12< esr> The fords look like stagnant mudflasts. The "coastal reefs" look like mudflats with turds on them.
20100923 23:22:06< Ivanovic> alink: what hardware do you use for your testing?
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20100923 23:24:59< AI0867> I think both have temporary graphics
20100923 23:26:42< esr> God, I hope so.  Dead Water is ruined, visually speaking.  And it was so pretty when I mainlined it.  :-(
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20100923 23:41:39< CIA-35> anonymissimus * r46674 /trunk/src/ (scripting/lua.cpp team.hpp): Fixed wesnoth.is_enemy returning wrong results. (patch #1981 by FAAB)
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--- Log closed Fri Sep 24 00:00:25 2010