--- Log opened Tue Sep 28 00:00:54 2010
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20100928 00:39:52< shadowmaster> loonybot: { time_t ts = 1285354187; cout << ctime(&ts); }
20100928 00:40:00< loonybot> Fri Sep 24 18:49:47 2010
20100928 00:40:08< shadowmaster>   hm.
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20100928 00:47:26< joo> Does that bot compile C++?
20100928 00:47:39< joo> And then run it?
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20100928 00:47:57< Crab_> job: small subset of c++, afair
20100928 00:48:06< Crab_> joo ^
20100928 00:48:22< joo> Hmm
20100928 00:48:34< joo> So it just interprets it?
20100928 00:48:35< loonycyborg> All C++ that gcc supports, but dangerous actions are blocked.
20100928 00:48:41< joo> Oh.
20100928 00:49:56< joo> What would happen if I sent while (true) {}?
20100928 00:51:45< loonycyborg> It would be killed. Processes are on timer.
20100928 00:54:49< shadowmaster> http://www.xs4all.nl/~weegen/eelis/geordi/#operational
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20100928 02:15:37-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: 159 bugs, 297 feature requests, 14 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
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20100928 03:12:36< Mica> eleazzaar: Just a minor thing, the link to your forum profile from your wiki page doesn't work xD
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20100928 03:34:01< CIA-35> shadowmaster * r46784 /trunk/data/campaigns/Liberty/scenarios/09_Epilogue.cfg: Get rid of a visible epilogue gamemap in Liberty
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20100928 03:39:19< CIA-35> shadowmaster * r46785 /branches/1.8/data/campaigns/Liberty/scenarios/09_Epilog.cfg: 
20100928 03:39:19< CIA-35> Get rid of a visible epilogue gamemap in Liberty
20100928 03:39:19< CIA-35> (Backported from trunk, r46784.)
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20100928 04:40:47< eleazzaar> Mica: fixed
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20100928 04:57:37< CIA-35> eleazar * r46786 /trunk/data/core/ (terrain-graphics.cfg terrain.cfg): reactivation one of my test terrains.
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20100928 10:47:14< Ivanovic> moin
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20100928 11:54:29< CIA-35> zookeeper * r46787 /trunk/data/campaigns/Descent_Into_Darkness/scenarios/ (5 files): Italicized quoted passages in DiD story text and dialogue.
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20100928 12:05:29< CIA-35> zookeeper * r46788 /trunk/data/campaigns/ (5 files in 5 dirs): Italicized quoted passages in DW, EI, HttT, Liberty and TB story text and dialogue.
20100928 12:11:36< CIA-35> zookeeper * r46789 /trunk/data/campaigns/ (4 files in 3 dirs): Italicized quoted passages in DM and TSG story text and dialogue.
20100928 12:17:43< CIA-35> zookeeper * r46790 /trunk/data/campaigns/Under_the_Burning_Suns/scenarios/ (4 files): Italicized quoted passages in UtBS story text and dialogue.
20100928 12:18:38< CIA-35> zookeeper * r46791 /trunk/data/campaigns/Under_the_Burning_Suns/utils/storytxt.cfg: Italicized one more quoted passage in UtBS.
20100928 12:22:47< CIA-35> zookeeper * r46792 /trunk/data/campaigns/The_Rise_Of_Wesnoth/scenarios/ (4 files): Italicized quoted passages in TRoW dialogue.
20100928 12:28:27< CIA-35> zookeeper * r46793 /trunk/data/campaigns/Northern_Rebirth/scenarios/ (4 files): Italicized quoted passages in NR story text and dialogue.
20100928 12:28:37< zookeeper> ok, that should be all of them, i think...
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20100928 12:39:53< Ivanovic> beetlenaut, gambit: https://gna.org/bugs/index.php?16771
20100928 12:40:23< Ivanovic> interestingly the poacher seems to be affected by the pink elephant problem (aka "team colorization missing")
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20100928 13:34:53< zookeeper> Ivanovic, beetlenaut, gambit, the cage getting drawn on the poacher is an engine bug, i'll post a comment after fixing the TC...
20100928 13:35:31< CIA-35> zookeeper * r46794 /trunk/data/campaigns/Dead_Water/scenarios/04_Slavers.cfg: Fixed missing TC on the caged poacher.
20100928 13:36:22< Ivanovic> zookeeper: okay, is this engine bug reported?
20100928 13:37:46< zookeeper> no, but i'll reuse the current report for that
20100928 13:37:56< CIA-35> zookeeper * r46795 /trunk/data/campaigns/Dead_Water/scenarios/05_Tirigaz.cfg: Tweaked a few apparently functional but odd image paths.
20100928 13:38:14< zookeeper> ...since that's really what the report is about
20100928 13:39:52< Ivanovic> feel free to change the title of the report to make it more obvious as "engine bug"
20100928 13:39:56< Ivanovic> is it one for boucman?
20100928 13:40:43< CIA-35> zookeeper * r46796 /trunk/data/campaigns/Dead_Water/scenarios/04_Slavers.cfg: Fixed missing TC on the caged burner as well.
20100928 13:41:23< zookeeper> i can't rename a report (or at least i don't know how) but it's descriptive enough as it is... i'll assign it to boucman for now
20100928 13:44:03< Ivanovic> zookeeper: you should be able to as dev, you can just change the title when posting an update
20100928 13:44:18< Ivanovic> (okay, i got more powers so that might be why i can do it, but i *think* you can, too)
20100928 13:45:13< zookeeper> nope, can't see a way, although it tells me that "You are both technician and manager for this tracker."
20100928 13:45:22< zookeeper> oh, wait
20100928 13:45:24< zookeeper> there it is
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20100928 20:24:25< mordante> servus
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20100928 20:36:13< mordante> eleazzaar, I'm looking at the title screen and think the 32px limit is too big for 800x600 rather keep the limit as is and look at the growing
20100928 20:40:52< mordante> on 800x600 the text is about 550 pixels wide at the moment
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20100928 20:50:02< alink> zookeeper: thanks for the WML example, it was really usefull (and faster) to better understand the problem and quickly try some fixes (but not found a good one yet)
20100928 20:50:46< zookeeper> alink, great
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20100928 21:02:08< eleazzaar> mordante: what's the problem?  You'll loose 2 -4 characters from the line width of the tip box
20100928 21:03:59< eleazzaar> mordante: though we should take into account the width of the box's shaddow (3 pix)
20100928 21:04:26< Soliton> zookeeper: "feral units cannot receive a maximum of 40% defense..."?
20100928 21:04:54< eleazzaar> so subtract 3 pixels from the right margin making it 29px
20100928 21:05:45< mordante> eleazzaar, I think it gets rather small on 800x600
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20100928 21:06:08< mordante> but I'm working on it and commit it with the current margin
20100928 21:06:21< mordante> then you can tweak the values until you're happy
20100928 21:06:40< eleazzaar> mordante: is that in display.cpp?
20100928 21:07:39< mordante> eleazzaar, no it will be in a .cfg file so you can tweak the values without the need to recompile
20100928 21:07:55< eleazzaar> mordante: excellent!
20100928 21:08:10< eleazzaar> is that what GUI2 is all about?
20100928 21:08:16< mordante> yup
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20100928 21:09:24< mordante> but since it's still in development new features and bug fixes are still needed forcing you to recompile it every now and then
20100928 21:10:04< eleazzaar> the graphic elements are also due for an overhaul too, but i need to finish up some terrain stuff first
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20100928 21:10:33< eleazzaar> mordante: no problem, i'm compiling as needed these days
20100928 21:10:55< mordante> well I would welcome a graphic overhaul especially the semi-transparent scrollbar elements can use some love
20100928 21:11:16< mordante> ok cool you managed to the compilation to work on your box :-)
20100928 21:11:28< mordante> good to know
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20100928 21:12:59< CIA-35> mordante * r46797 /trunk/data/gui/default/macros/filler.cfg: Add a filler macro to fill empty grid cells.
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20100928 21:17:22< mordante> btw eleazzaar your screenshot doesn't show the version box which is also shown in the title screen
20100928 21:17:37< mordante> it's now placed at the bottom left aligned with the tips box
20100928 21:19:34-!- billynux [~billy@wesnoth/developer/billynux] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100928 21:19:47< billynux> hi all, mordante, long time no see :)
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20100928 21:20:28< mordante> hi billynux 
20100928 21:20:33< mordante> indeed a long time
20100928 21:20:43< billynux> mordante, hi. Did you see I added the proxy support via command line?
20100928 21:21:04< billynux> Soliton, any trouble in the network front lately?
20100928 21:22:31< mordante> billynux, yeah I saw it
20100928 21:22:37< mordante> billynux, how are you doing?
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20100928 21:23:41< billynux> mordante, ok enough... I'm pretty anxious about my Job situation, but I'm hoping this will be resolved this Thursday (iPhone developer)
20100928 21:23:55< billynux> aside from this... great :)
20100928 21:24:08< billynux> I got my GSoC T-Shirt and certificate :D
20100928 21:25:14< mordante> what did they say to your application?
20100928 21:25:46< mordante> good to hear you got your stuff from google :-)
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20100928 21:31:26< CIA-35> alink * r46798 /branches/ogl/: Creating ogl branch for future OpenGL experiments
20100928 21:31:35< alink> \o/
20100928 21:32:01< alink> now just need to clean my local git mess and commit it 
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20100928 21:33:06< alink> btw I fixed my fullscreen problem, it was indeed a big flaw in my hack only covered by some window cheap update stuff
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20100928 21:34:05< mordante> nice alink :-D
20100928 21:34:17< alink> but I have a fix now, in theory it's more memory copy, but seems to have no cost, probably because source and destination are video memory
20100928 21:36:21< eleazzaar> mordante:  This week i'm gonna concentrate on terrain hopefully next week i'll work on GUI stuff
20100928 21:37:25< eleazzaar> zookeeper: alink: weren't you talking earlier about a corner-based transition that wasn't centered weirdly like castles?
20100928 21:38:10< CIA-35> mordante * r46799 /trunk/data/gui/default/widget/label_alignment.cfg: 
20100928 21:38:10< CIA-35> Make the title screen textbox 650 pixels wide.
20100928 21:38:10< CIA-35> Implementing some ideas suggested by Eleazar in the forum [1].
20100928 21:38:10< CIA-35> [1] http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31765
20100928 21:38:11< alink> eleazzaar: yes, well i am not sure what WML relied on that, but I suppose that castle was one of them
20100928 21:38:12< CIA-35> mordante * r46800 /trunk/data/gui/default/window/title_screen.cfg: 
20100928 21:38:13< CIA-35> Changed the horizontal growth in the title screen.
20100928 21:38:13< CIA-35> Implementing some ideas suggested by Eleazar in the forum [1].
20100928 21:38:13< CIA-35> [1] http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31765
20100928 21:38:19< CIA-35> mordante * r46801 /trunk/data/gui/default/window/title_screen.cfg: 
20100928 21:38:19< CIA-35> Changed Editor to Map Editor in title screen.
20100928 21:38:19< CIA-35> Implementing some ideas suggested by Eleazar in the forum [1].
20100928 21:38:19< CIA-35> [1] http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31765
20100928 21:38:27< mordante> eleazzaar, ok
20100928 21:38:30< CIA-35> mordante * r46802 /trunk/data/gui/default/window/title_screen.cfg: 
20100928 21:38:30< CIA-35> hanged the vertical growth in the title screen.
20100928 21:38:30< CIA-35> Implementing some ideas suggested by Eleazar in the forum [1].
20100928 21:38:30< CIA-35> [1] http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31765
20100928 21:38:47< eleazzaar> mordante: cool
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20100928 21:39:07< mordante> eleazzaar, I committed some changes for you the vertical is somewhat tricky since the logo can be behind the buttons
20100928 21:39:39< mordante> when you start to tweak the numbers don't forget to test with --smallgui -r 800x480 for the pandora
20100928 21:39:56< eleazzaar> zookeeper: alink: i think beach waves would be best done as corner transitions -- i'm gonna put together some test graphics which could test this thing if the macros will be ready
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20100928 21:40:52< eleazzaar> mordante: only 480 tall!?!  oog i thought 600 was the smallest
20100928 21:41:46< mordante> eleazzaar, no for small devices we have 480 as minimum, but needs the --smallgui parameter
20100928 21:41:51< Ivanovic> eleazzaar: the pandora only have 800x480 as max resolution
20100928 21:41:57< Ivanovic> as it is used in several mobile devices
20100928 21:42:18< Ivanovic> mordante: IMO we should drop this param unless there is some real code that does depend on it
20100928 21:42:35< Ivanovic> in the old days it was only the main menu to position the logo differently (and activating the resolution)
20100928 21:42:51< alink> eleazzaar: hmmm, you mean multihex animated waves ?  (I prefer single hex for performance, even if some future optimization may change that)
20100928 21:43:32< alink> s/even/but
20100928 21:43:34< eleazzaar> alink: these need to be mulit-hex  since they wash from the water hex to the sand hex
20100928 21:44:03< CIA-35> mordante * r46803 /trunk/data/gui/default/window/title_screen.cfg: 
20100928 21:44:03< CIA-35> Another title screen tweak.
20100928 21:44:03< CIA-35> Forgotten in my last commit.
20100928 21:44:08< alink> eleazzaar: ah yes, indeed
20100928 21:44:27< zookeeper> Soliton, oops
20100928 21:44:52< mordante> Ivanovic, it's still used at some places, but I agree if no longer needed we can drop it
20100928 21:45:09< Ivanovic> mordante: something else i'd like to see in your gui2 changes:
20100928 21:45:13< eleazzaar> Ivanovic: mordante i don't know about "parameters" but it would be useful to change the way some things are displayed on the title screen according to the screen size
20100928 21:45:22< Ivanovic> some way to add scrollbars or some equivalent in the right pane
20100928 21:45:31< Ivanovic> currently the fonts are by far too tiny for the pandora screen
20100928 21:45:50< Ivanovic> but since there is no scrolling possible in this area there is no way to display all the information in a readable way
20100928 21:46:11< Ivanovic> eleazzaar: this should in theory be done more "dynamic" and not hardcoded
20100928 21:46:28< alink> at some point, I wish to also consider dropping tiny-gui, or at least ask if someone really use it
20100928 21:46:38< mordante> eleazzaar, yeah that's possible, need to define several layouts with an upper bound at which to switch resolutions
20100928 21:47:05< alink> (mainly because the ugly tiny-gui "resize image at install" hack)
20100928 21:47:15< mordante> the code support is there for when you open a dialog only no support for resizing yet
20100928 21:47:31< eleazzaar> does tinygui effect other things than the main screen?
20100928 21:47:36< mordante> it's planned, but usually I wait for a use-case before adding it
20100928 21:47:42< zookeeper> eleazzaar, hmm, why do you want to do them as corner transitions? so that you can make it mesh nicer with adjacent non-sand land-to-water transitions?
20100928 21:48:10< mordante> Ivanovic, yeah scrollbars is also planned in fact support for it is partly ready
20100928 21:48:23< eleazzaar> zookeeper: yes
20100928 21:48:24< mordante> but it's in that stage for quite a while :-(
20100928 21:48:28< alink> eleazzaar: yes various things here and there in game and dialogs. Note that tinygui is different from smallgui
20100928 21:48:44< mordante> I was working on that when RL limited the time I could spend on Wesnoth
20100928 21:48:57< mordante> so I want to restart that project in a short while
20100928 21:49:12< eleazzaar> zookeeper: i don't want the beach waves to wash up on the dirt bank
20100928 21:49:27< eleazzaar> does the iphone app use tinygui or small gui?
20100928 21:49:49< alink> IPhone uses its own hacks
20100928 21:50:08< alink> we don't need to care about it
20100928 21:50:30< eleazzaar> i was hoping to see what it looked like in context
20100928 21:51:40< alink> eleazzaar: you would not like it, all images are rescaled at 50%
20100928 21:52:50< Ivanovic> it is ugly as hell and should never again be used!
20100928 21:53:06< Ivanovic> honestly, going below 800x480 without doing some additional work is not really worth the effort
20100928 21:53:16< Ivanovic> though there are some devices that are 640x480 IIRC
20100928 21:53:37< alink> eleazzaar: I think there is some (old) images there http://www.google.com/images?q=wesnoth+"tiny+gui"
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20100928 21:54:05< GNUtoo|laptop> hi
20100928 21:54:13< mordante> hi GNUtoo|laptop 
20100928 21:54:25< alink> grzywacz as probably more srceenshots
20100928 21:54:30< alink> wesbot: seen grzywacz
20100928 21:54:30< wesbot> alink: The person with the nick grzywacz last spoke 17d 19h ago.  17h 48m ago was here and on the channel #wesnoth with the message: Remote host closed the connection
20100928 21:54:32< Ivanovic> alink, eleazzaar, mordante: asked GNUtoo|laptop to join in here since we just discussed low res stuff (including tinygui)
20100928 21:54:33< GNUtoo|laptop> <Ivanovic> we are currently discussing screen resolution related stuff
20100928 21:54:49< Ivanovic> GNUtoo|laptop: what screen resolutions are you using in your ports?
20100928 21:54:58< GNUtoo|laptop> depend on the device:
20100928 21:55:03< mordante> Ivanovic, I already thought it was no coincidence ;-)
20100928 21:55:07< GNUtoo|laptop> freerunner: 480x640
20100928 21:55:18< GNUtoo|laptop> htcdream: 480x320
20100928 21:55:29< GNUtoo|laptop> nokia900: 800x480 => smallgui
20100928 21:55:39< GNUtoo|laptop> bug device: 320x240
20100928 21:55:53< GNUtoo|laptop> altough my touch part of screens are broken on bug device
20100928 21:56:03< boucman> I didn't even know we were ported on these devices :P
20100928 21:56:07< GNUtoo|laptop> I can provide screenshots and pictures
20100928 21:56:25< Ivanovic> you are relying on tinygui, right?
20100928 21:56:26< alink> boucman: me too :)
20100928 21:56:27< GNUtoo|laptop> boucman, with openembedded you're ported to a lot more
20100928 21:56:32< GNUtoo|laptop> tons of devices
20100928 21:56:48< Ivanovic> (that is: 800x480 has to work simply because the pandora port uses this and i try to maintain it)
20100928 21:56:48< GNUtoo|laptop> it's just a mather of running one command to compile it
20100928 21:56:50< Ivanovic> ;)
20100928 21:56:56< zookeeper> eleazzaar, ok, well, i hope you know what you're doing, since imagining corner transitions acting sort of like normal layered transitions and being animated too makes me dizzy...
20100928 21:57:23< GNUtoo|laptop> Ivanovic, indeed apart for nokia900
20100928 21:57:31< GNUtoo|laptop> s/nokia900/n900/g
20100928 21:57:56< alink> GNUtoo|laptop: do you use the (bad) tinygui configure switch ?
20100928 21:58:01< eleazzaar> zookeeper: visually it will work.  I don't know how much of a pain the macros would be
20100928 21:58:06< GNUtoo|laptop> basically I've 2 recipes now
20100928 21:58:14< GNUtoo|laptop> one which does:
20100928 21:58:25< GNUtoo|laptop> tinygui + lowmem
20100928 21:58:28< CIA-35> zookeeper * r46804 /trunk/data/core/help.cfg: Fixed a typo in the feral description.
20100928 21:58:30< GNUtoo|laptop> and one which does only lowmem
20100928 21:58:46< GNUtoo|laptop> note that I've some issues with 800x480
20100928 21:58:57< mordante> what kind of issues?
20100928 21:59:03< GNUtoo|laptop> it doesn't detect the screen res without --smallgui
20100928 21:59:19< GNUtoo|laptop> for 320x240 it fails with assert since that rev:
20100928 21:59:20< mordante> that's a feature
20100928 21:59:51< mordante> the --smallgui is needed for some other internal switches, which we eventually want to remove
20100928 21:59:56< GNUtoo|laptop> wesnoth_1.4.6.bb:320x240 works,  wesnoth_1.6.5.bb: 320x240 is broken
20100928 22:00:00< GNUtoo|laptop> ok
20100928 22:00:00< Ivanovic> i am running the pandora build without --lowmem which you maybe want to consider for the n900 port, too (since it is verys similar)
20100928 22:00:07< GNUtoo|laptop> ok
20100928 22:00:27< Ivanovic> i think regarding 320x240: the lowest resolution still available in the configs is 400x300
20100928 22:00:40< Ivanovic> simply because there was not enough space to get things into such a tiny amount of space
20100928 22:00:42< GNUtoo|laptop> note that all my "ports" are using openembedded and require a GNU/Linux distribution based on openembedded
20100928 22:00:45< mordante> what assert do you get on 320x240?
20100928 22:00:47< zookeeper> eleazzaar, well, if all you need is a regular corner transition just like the ones for walls, then sure it's trivial for me to add a macro supporting animations
20100928 22:00:50< GNUtoo|laptop> I'll try
20100928 22:01:18< GNUtoo|laptop> let me cross-compile it
20100928 22:01:49< GNUtoo|laptop> I have the crash on 320x240 just before that:
20100928 22:01:49< alink> oh, so, tinygui is still used :/ 
20100928 22:02:13< alink> well, since I worked on it in the past, that's also a good news :)
20100928 22:02:16< GNUtoo|laptop> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Wesnoth-1.6-5.jpg see the lineus
20100928 22:02:23< eleazzaar> zookeeper: yes, but there are no fancy connections.  each wave would be out of sync with the others
20100928 22:02:31< GNUtoo|laptop> in the tutorial in 320x240 it crash just before that bar
20100928 22:02:49< GNUtoo|laptop> that bar wasn't there in wesnoth 1.4.6
20100928 22:02:59< GNUtoo|laptop> I think we need some structure
20100928 22:03:14< GNUtoo|laptop> what resolution should we discuss first
20100928 22:03:15< GNUtoo|laptop> ?
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20100928 22:03:50< zookeeper> eleazzaar, hmmh, but you can still make the transition tile seamlessly next to itself?
20100928 22:03:50< eleazzaar> i'm still trying to figure out how it is half-way playable at 320x240
20100928 22:04:03< alink> GNUtoo|laptop: the lowest used, I guess
20100928 22:04:08< GNUtoo|laptop> ok
20100928 22:04:12< GNUtoo|laptop> 320x240 then
20100928 22:04:23< GNUtoo|laptop> I've nothing under that res
20100928 22:04:33< Ivanovic> eleazzaar: half every tile size
20100928 22:04:34< GNUtoo|laptop> and I bet under that res is quite uncommon
20100928 22:04:41< Ivanovic> tiles only got 36x36px there
20100928 22:04:48< GNUtoo|laptop> I'll compile for 320x240
20100928 22:04:50< Ivanovic> and no, it is not really playable, IMO it is no fun
20100928 22:04:56< GNUtoo|laptop> but should I compile the one which works?
20100928 22:04:59< GNUtoo|laptop> or the one which doesn't
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20100928 22:05:01< GNUtoo|laptop> ?
20100928 22:05:36< Ivanovic> GNUtoo|laptop: IMO the only relevant is 1.9.x since everything else is outdated and we got to find a good way on how to progress
20100928 22:05:51< Ivanovic> that is: how is opengl(es) support on the devices handled by openembedded?
20100928 22:06:01< GNUtoo|laptop> software only
20100928 22:06:09< GNUtoo|laptop> I mean no hardware acceleration
20100928 22:06:21< Ivanovic> don't many devices have drivers?
20100928 22:06:33< Ivanovic> or are those only proprietary and thus not part of openembedded itself?
20100928 22:06:33< GNUtoo|laptop> some have but....
20100928 22:06:43< GNUtoo|laptop> you can't redistribute the proprietary drivers
20100928 22:06:53< GNUtoo|laptop> and some don't even work with GNU/Linux
20100928 22:06:58< GNUtoo|laptop> for instance on the htcdream
20100928 22:07:25< GNUtoo|laptop> basically:
20100928 22:07:35< GNUtoo|laptop> freerunner: no usable 3d
20100928 22:07:51< GNUtoo|laptop> bug: has 3d capabilities but no one made it work
20100928 22:08:04< GNUtoo|laptop> htcdream: only works in android
20100928 22:08:12< GNUtoo|laptop> nokia900: non redistributable driver
20100928 22:08:19< GNUtoo|laptop> the most common is the nokia900
20100928 22:08:30< GNUtoo|laptop> most omaps have powervr
20100928 22:08:42< GNUtoo|laptop> which driver can't be redistributed
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20100928 22:08:53< GNUtoo|laptop> and it's opengl-es
20100928 22:09:26< GNUtoo|laptop> personally I don't mind 3d as long as it's optional
20100928 22:09:37< alink> this platform differences worries me for future OpenGL optimizations :-/
20100928 22:09:41< Ivanovic> 2d is 3d in a plane...
20100928 22:10:02< Ivanovic> alink: those platforms have a problem with the huge amounts of animated stuff anyway...
20100928 22:10:14< GNUtoo|laptop> ah I've also a nexusone
20100928 22:10:16< Ivanovic> plus the amount of ram wesnoth does require by now
20100928 22:10:17< GNUtoo|laptop> I forgott to tell
20100928 22:10:25< GNUtoo|laptop> 480x800
20100928 22:10:27< alink> Ivanovic: yes but it's easy to toggle that off
20100928 22:10:33< Ivanovic> GNUtoo|laptop: the general idea is to eventually switch to opengl
20100928 22:10:35< GNUtoo|laptop> and 512M of ram and 1Ghz armv7
20100928 22:10:41< GNUtoo|laptop> ouch
20100928 22:10:57< Ivanovic> so that rendering of stuff can be hardware accelerated
20100928 22:11:04< GNUtoo|laptop> ok
20100928 22:11:07< Ivanovic> because currently it is really straining to do all stuff in plain software
20100928 22:11:41< Ivanovic> this way even rather fast desktop machines are under full load in larger resolutions which is not optimal since there are graphics cards that are better for the task at hand
20100928 22:11:41< GNUtoo|laptop> would it be optional, in the sense that it can be disabled if you disable some stuff
20100928 22:11:56< Ivanovic> it would be a complete opengl backend
20100928 22:11:56< alink> Ivanovic: if we rewrite the engine to use well OpenGL rendering and video memory, that's hard to keep the old softaware way around
20100928 22:12:10< Ivanovic> software render would have to be done via the opengl driver
20100928 22:12:24< GNUtoo|laptop> also wouldn't it be problematic for desktops 
20100928 22:12:32< GNUtoo|laptop> I mean 
20100928 22:12:39< GNUtoo|laptop> lots of people have different drivers
20100928 22:12:43< GNUtoo|laptop> some have nvidia blobs
20100928 22:12:46< GNUtoo|laptop> some ati blobs
20100928 22:12:48< GNUtoo|laptop> some nouveau
20100928 22:12:50< Ivanovic> and?
20100928 22:12:57< Ivanovic> opengl specifies extensions to use
20100928 22:13:00< GNUtoo|laptop> some run free radeon driver
20100928 22:13:01< GNUtoo|laptop> ok
20100928 22:13:16< Ivanovic> you can eg run ut2004 on many different setups
20100928 22:13:20< GNUtoo|laptop> I'm a newbie at opengl but some games sometimes don't work well on a set of driver
20100928 22:13:24< Ivanovic> it just works, no problem there
20100928 22:13:28< GNUtoo|laptop> ok
20100928 22:13:31< alink> I am hoping that even poor driver can support our small needs. It's not really Quake 5
20100928 22:13:33< Ivanovic> yeah, it all comes down to which features you use
20100928 22:13:40< GNUtoo|laptop> ah ok
20100928 22:13:44< Ivanovic> we don't need much, just some very basic features that should be no problem
20100928 22:13:51< Ivanovic> eg have a look at what frogatto does
20100928 22:13:59< Ivanovic> they work with an opengl backend, too
20100928 22:14:00< GNUtoo|laptop> frogatto?
20100928 22:14:12< Ivanovic> some jump and run dave and several other wesnoth people work on
20100928 22:14:18< GNUtoo|laptop> ok
20100928 22:14:21< GNUtoo|laptop> is there a link?
20100928 22:14:26< Ivanovic> frogatto.com
20100928 22:14:36< GNUtoo|laptop> ok looking
20100928 22:14:39< alink> GNUtoo|laptop: maybe you can port it, but the license is different IIRC
20100928 22:14:46< mordante> in trunk tiny-gui seems borked the title screen can't be shown in 320x240
20100928 22:15:22< GNUtoo|laptop> also I've some issues with scalling in tinyGUI
20100928 22:15:26< GNUtoo|laptop> villages can't be seen
20100928 22:15:29< GNUtoo|laptop> only their flags
20100928 22:15:30< mordante> and it seems the rendering of terrains is completely borked with tiny-gui
20100928 22:15:33< zookeeper> eleazzaar, so just to clarify, is this the way you figured you'd cut the transition? http://imagebin.org/116148
20100928 22:16:06< Ivanovic> in the way things are currently i'd say that tinygui is nonfunctional
20100928 22:16:14< alink> mordante: you didn't forget the install phase, right ?
20100928 22:16:17< eleazzaar> zookeeper: yeah -- just the waves
20100928 22:16:19< Ivanovic> but getting back to the opengl stuff:
20100928 22:16:22< GNUtoo|laptop> it's playable but not as great as smallgui
20100928 22:16:51< zookeeper> eleazzaar, oh, you mean you'd use "normal" two-sided transitions for the beach and do only the waves as corner transitions?
20100928 22:16:56< mordante> alink, no I didn't and also no 72x72 tile warnings ;-)
20100928 22:17:05< eleazzaar> zookeeper: yes
20100928 22:17:24< Ivanovic> the question is what we should seriously consider supporting as minimum specs
20100928 22:17:38< Ivanovic> this includes graphics hardware, system ram as well as screen resolution
20100928 22:17:56< zookeeper> eleazzaar, hmh, i see. that's an interesting approach but i don't see why it wouldn't work..
20100928 22:18:50< eleazzaar> Ivanovic: it is possible some of the smaller resolution devices wouldn't have the resources to run  1.9.x
20100928 22:19:14< GNUtoo|laptop> indeed it's possible apart some exceptions like the geeksphone
20100928 22:19:28< mordante> Ivanovic, good question, but I like to keep low-mem and tiny-gui options
20100928 22:19:30< alink> don't forget that we can easily disable a portion of terrain stuff
20100928 22:19:35< boucman> eleazzaar: with the lowmem flag we disable all animations afaik
20100928 22:19:41< Ivanovic> eleazzaar: exactly
20100928 22:20:01< alink> like terrain variant, transition, animation, ToD etc ...
20100928 22:20:09< mordante> Ivanovic, expect if you start to disable features like animations 
20100928 22:20:29< Ivanovic> mordante: one real problem is getting the ingame interface display nicely
20100928 22:20:29< GNUtoo|laptop> I think the geekphone which will run GNU/Linux soon is 400x240
20100928 22:20:49< GNUtoo|laptop> it's nearly the same than the htcdream
20100928 22:20:53< GNUtoo|laptop> so fast enough
20100928 22:20:53< Ivanovic> personally i think that it is barely possible to nicely scale down the graphics (the new ones are just too detailed...)
20100928 22:21:01< alink> the core engine (without 1.9 features and content) is probably more optimized than before
20100928 22:21:08< mordante> Ivanovic, true
20100928 22:21:11< Ivanovic> and if the game screen section gets smaller than in 800x480 you really need the game field scaled down
20100928 22:21:29< Ivanovic> otherwise you just see some 4 hex which really sucks
20100928 22:21:48< GNUtoo|laptop> htcdream and geeksphone are armv6-novfp about 500Mhz which is quite fast
20100928 22:22:22< GNUtoo|laptop> specially with the distro I run on htcdream
20100928 22:22:27< GNUtoo|laptop> it uses enlightenment
20100928 22:22:33< GNUtoo|laptop> and isn't very heavy
20100928 22:22:45< GNUtoo|laptop> telephony stuff doesn't eat too much
20100928 22:23:12< Ivanovic> pandora has an arm cortex a8 at 500MHz default
20100928 22:23:18< Ivanovic> which is very reasonable for normal gameplay
20100928 22:23:23< GNUtoo|laptop> armv7 
20100928 22:23:26< GNUtoo|laptop> yes
20100928 22:23:30< GNUtoo|laptop> it's even faster
20100928 22:24:33< GNUtoo|laptop> so cross-compiling will take some time on 320x240
20100928 22:24:44< GNUtoo|laptop> I'll cross compile 1.9 for nokia900 then
20100928 22:24:50< Soliton> billynux: 3 crashes with the pure virtual method call so far.
20100928 22:25:23< billynux> :(
20100928 22:25:35< billynux> Soliton, backtrace around?
20100928 22:25:58< Ivanovic> GNUtoo|laptop: the main questions at the moment are also resolution related
20100928 22:26:03< GNUtoo|laptop> ok
20100928 22:26:14< Ivanovic> how to get things to work decently on tiny resolution devices
20100928 22:26:18< GNUtoo|laptop> so I'll build for my 320x240 but I must rebuild everything from scratch
20100928 22:26:30< Ivanovic> on the pandora with smallgui it is barely usable, the fonts are too small on this highres device
20100928 22:26:44< GNUtoo|laptop> ah
20100928 22:26:51< GNUtoo|laptop> on nokia900 it was fine
20100928 22:27:09< GNUtoo|laptop> I'll compile for every device and provide screenshots
20100928 22:27:10< Ivanovic> on the pandora it is barely readable
20100928 22:27:19< GNUtoo|laptop> in the meantime I'll install an official image for htcdream
20100928 22:27:25< GNUtoo|laptop> and install wesnoth from the feeds
20100928 22:27:32< GNUtoo|laptop> that would avoid one compilation
20100928 22:27:40< GNUtoo|laptop> maybe I could do that for the other devices too
20100928 22:27:41< GNUtoo|laptop> good idea
20100928 22:27:49< GNUtoo|laptop> let me find a microsd
20100928 22:27:56< Ivanovic> i will take a shower should be back in ~30mins
20100928 22:28:14< Ivanovic> and yeah, i would *really* like to get rid of tinygui with its resizing to 36x36
20100928 22:28:25< Ivanovic> mordante: maybe you got an idea what could be done instead
20100928 22:28:39< Ivanovic> and yeah, some lowmem mode without any animations and whatnot does make sense to have
20100928 22:31:05< alink> at least OpenGL should provide free scaling at runtime, but you would lost the hard disk gain of the rescaling
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20100928 22:31:20< alink> and memory gain
20100928 22:31:57-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100928 22:31:57< alink> unless we rescale at loading time instead of rendering time
20100928 22:32:30< boucman> those devices are usually low on ram/cpu too, it might be too resource consuming
20100928 22:32:46< mordante> Ivanovic, reducing the sizes means about 4 times less memory
20100928 22:32:58< mordante> so I like to see the memory footprint
20100928 22:33:15< mordante> and of course it will be faster for the CPU as well
20100928 22:33:26< mordante> so I don't mind the scaling for tiny-gui
20100928 22:33:39< CIA-35> esr * r46805 /trunk/data/campaigns/Delfadors_Memoirs/ (4 files in 2 dirs): Wire in Kitty's portrait of Leollyn.
20100928 22:34:13< alink> yeah, rescaling at loading time will spare the ram, but slower loading. OtOH we already do some post process on image (ToD, hex-cut, TC, etc...)
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20100928 22:35:33< eleazzaar> i wouldn't mind if it was possible to have some alternate terrain macros for use at a few different settings
20100928 22:35:39< alink> depends how expensive is the scaling operation. And it also works on bigger data
20100928 22:35:42< Soliton> billynux: well, same as before:
20100928 22:35:46< Soliton> #7  0x08148a41 in asio_sender::handle_partial_send (this=0x9d741e0, buffer=
20100928 22:35:46< Soliton>         {px = 0xb6bca274, pn = {pi_ = 0xb6bca234}}, ec=@0xb6bca234, socket=0x9d741ec, handler=0xbfc7ed14, timer=0x0,
20100928 22:35:50< Soliton>     accumulated=171, last_msg_size=0, op_id=41119) at src/ana/src/asio_sender.cpp:127
20100928 22:37:44< billynux> hm... ok... this is a b1tch of a bug!
20100928 22:43:16< eleazzaar> I'm not worried about terrain being shrunk to 36x36
20100928 22:43:19< GNUtoo|laptop> btw what machines or distro are you targetting?
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20100928 22:45:28< eleazzaar> it should still be possible to tell what everything is-- units probably loose some of their recognizability -- but worst of all is shrunk text.  I don't see how you can avoid cutting text off or using absurdly (unreadably) small point sizes.
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20100928 22:46:01< eleazzaar> That all is in reference to sub 800x480 sized wesnoth
20100928 22:46:38< GNUtoo|laptop> because if there is mandatory 3d acceleration for wesnoth, and that there is no free 3d driver(it's unlikely that a free one appear anytime soon)....I won't run the non-free 3d driver and so I won't be able to run wesnoth, which means that I won't add new versions in openembedded...(I wouldn't add something that I don't even use right)
20100928 22:47:05< GNUtoo|laptop> and the problem is that I'm nearly the only one caring about wesnoth in openembedded
20100928 22:47:25< GNUtoo|laptop> but there may be some other distro like meego
20100928 22:47:39< mordante> how bad is the OGL support for smaller devices?
20100928 22:47:50< mordante> for desktops it seems to get better (finally)
20100928 22:48:07< GNUtoo|laptop> indeed for desktop it's fine apart some ultra-new cards
20100928 22:48:13< GNUtoo|laptop> if you use free 3d for desktops
20100928 22:48:19< GNUtoo|laptop> else you have proprietary drivers
20100928 22:48:34< mordante> yeah I mean the free OGL stuff, not the blobs
20100928 22:48:40< GNUtoo|laptop> ok
20100928 22:48:50< GNUtoo|laptop> on embedded device there are or blobs or nothing
20100928 22:48:55< mordante> :-(
20100928 22:48:58< GNUtoo|laptop> and the blobs are not redisrtibutable
20100928 22:49:03< GNUtoo|laptop> and sometimes not even usable
20100928 22:49:10< GNUtoo|laptop> think about android->GNU/Linux
20100928 22:49:14< GNUtoo|laptop> and similar stuff
20100928 22:49:41< mordante> that does not bode well
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20100928 22:51:00< mordante> not sure how good the software emulation is for those devices
20100928 22:51:23< GNUtoo|laptop> I think it's like for desktop
20100928 22:51:56< GNUtoo|laptop> can I try wesnoth 1.8?
20100928 22:52:01< GNUtoo|laptop> or is 1.9 mandatory?
20100928 22:52:40< mordante> 1.9 mandatory for what?
20100928 22:52:58< GNUtoo|laptop> for screenshots etc...
20100928 22:53:02-!- shadowm_laptop [ignacio@wesnoth/developer/shadowmaster] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100928 22:53:03< mordante> I just tested 1.8 tiny and there the terrain except villages is drawn
20100928 22:53:15< mordante> s/is/are/
20100928 22:53:26< mordante> so it seems a 1.9 regression
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20100928 22:53:35< GNUtoo|laptop> ok
20100928 22:53:46< mordante> so guess for tiny-gui 1.8 screenshots are mandatory ;-)
20100928 22:54:00< GNUtoo|laptop> ok nice
20100928 22:54:03< shadowmaster> I hear that gallium3d's swrast driver is better than mesa classic's in many ways btw
20100928 22:54:07< GNUtoo|laptop> because it's easier with 1.8
20100928 22:54:37< GNUtoo|laptop> btw there is a small fullscreen issue with 1.8 and tinyGUI
20100928 22:54:51< mordante> actually not nice since this means something is broken ;-)
20100928 22:54:59< mordante> what's the issue?
20100928 22:55:20< GNUtoo|laptop> basically the graphics are switched toward the bottom
20100928 22:55:29< GNUtoo|laptop> there is a black bar on top
20100928 22:55:35< GNUtoo|laptop> so what I do usually is start windowed
20100928 22:55:45< GNUtoo|laptop> and put full-screen after with a key-binding
20100928 22:55:53< GNUtoo|laptop> so that way no issues at all
20100928 22:55:59< GNUtoo|laptop> if you press the button soon enough
20100928 22:56:20< GNUtoo|laptop> tutorial 480x320 is ok?
20100928 22:57:07< GNUtoo|laptop> 320x240 will come after
20100928 22:57:10< GNUtoo|laptop> still compiling
20100928 22:58:26< mordante> fine by me
20100928 23:02:52< GNUtoo|laptop> I can also do videos but the quality of the videos won't be great
20100928 23:03:29< GNUtoo|laptop> http://scap.linuxtogo.org/
20100928 23:05:48< Ivanovic> reh
20100928 23:06:40< eleazzaar> the menu bar gets pretty mangled
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20100928 23:07:27< eleazzaar> much of the smaller type is illegible
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20100928 23:07:51< GNUtoo|laptop> I can also provides videos and pictures with a ruler next to the device
20100928 23:08:42< Ivanovic> on the screenshots you see that even the forests are missing
20100928 23:09:28< Ivanovic> so it is more than villages being a problem
20100928 23:09:38< mordante> I guess the overlays
20100928 23:09:46< eleazzaar> but the bridges work
20100928 23:09:47< mordante> IIRC we had that once before
20100928 23:10:00< GNUtoo|laptop> yes I forgott that
20100928 23:10:07< eleazzaar> maybe any overlays with images bigger than 72x72?
20100928 23:10:17< GNUtoo|laptop> I can provide console output
20100928 23:10:25< mordante> might be are forests also bigger?
20100928 23:10:28< GNUtoo|laptop> Create an empty image
20100928 23:10:36< GNUtoo|laptop> I've stuff like that printing on the console
20100928 23:10:36< eleazzaar> mordante: yes
20100928 23:10:49< mordante> then I guess that's the issue
20100928 23:10:50< GNUtoo|laptop> bbvs
20100928 23:11:25< eleazzaar> GNUtoo|laptop: do the tropical forests show up?  i.e. palm trees?
20100928 23:11:34< GNUtoo|laptop> I'll look
20100928 23:11:36< GNUtoo|laptop> bbs
20100928 23:12:14< Ivanovic> okay, then lets see what information we have so far:
20100928 23:12:22< Ivanovic> 1) opengl based stuff on desktops should be fine
20100928 23:12:49< Ivanovic> 2) opengl (hardwareaccelerated!) on small devices is likely to be a problem since it only works by default on a very limited amount of devices
20100928 23:12:59< eleazzaar> GNUtoo|laptop: never mind, i remebered wrong.  tropical trees have the same problem normal forests do
20100928 23:13:04< Ivanovic> 3) software opengl on those devices: no idea how fast that is going to be...
20100928 23:13:23< Ivanovic> 4) many of those devices do not have much ram, so usually the lowmem option is used
20100928 23:14:04< Ivanovic> this currently results in *lots* of stuff being deactivated (and not being activatable!) like: animations, unit facing, "a lot more, maybe even TC"
20100928 23:14:32< Ivanovic> 5) we have several devices with less than 800px horizontally and less than 480px vertically
20100928 23:14:39< mordante> yup might be TC is already off
20100928 23:14:59< GNUtoo|laptop> back
20100928 23:15:22< Ivanovic> basically everything in openembedded is (currently) built with lowmem
20100928 23:15:30< Ivanovic> so all the animation stuff would be gone
20100928 23:15:36< GNUtoo|laptop> yes
20100928 23:15:50< Ivanovic> which also means that software opengl should not be a real problem since redraws ain't really required
20100928 23:16:05< GNUtoo|laptop> ok nice
20100928 23:16:12< Ivanovic> (which also means that software redraws should not hurt too much)
20100928 23:16:14< mordante> probably yes, guess it needs testing
20100928 23:16:16< Ivanovic> alink: is this correct so far?
20100928 23:16:20< GNUtoo|laptop> indeed
20100928 23:16:44< Ivanovic> for the pandora there are opengl es drivers, so it would be hardware accelerated (i don't use lowmem for it!)
20100928 23:17:17< GNUtoo|laptop> ok
20100928 23:17:35< Ivanovic> a benefit of opengl would/should be that we basically get free zooming (though i don't know where the power comes from in a software only environment)
20100928 23:17:57< Ivanovic> if we got free zooming we could in theory go for "full size images" and just zoom out enough
20100928 23:18:20< Ivanovic> benefit of this: we could drop the image scaling done via the tinygui install stuff
20100928 23:18:29< Ivanovic> disatvantage: larger images need more ram
20100928 23:18:34< GNUtoo|laptop> indeed more ram
20100928 23:18:39< GNUtoo|laptop> but wow on desktops
20100928 23:18:53< GNUtoo|laptop> embedded devices do not have a lot of ram
20100928 23:19:07< GNUtoo|laptop> some have 128,some 256, some rare have 512
20100928 23:19:30< GNUtoo|laptop> the nokia900 has 256M
20100928 23:19:31< Ivanovic> GNUtoo|laptop: the pandora has 256MB ram, so it has/should work there with "full" details as target i'd say
20100928 23:19:37< GNUtoo|laptop> ok
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20100928 23:19:56< GNUtoo|laptop> but pandora has no other stuff in the background right?
20100928 23:19:59< Ivanovic> (which does mean that it might use some more mem on desktop systems, but not too much)
20100928 23:20:06< GNUtoo|laptop> ok
20100928 23:20:07< Ivanovic> GNUtoo|laptop: it does run xfce in the background
20100928 23:20:18< GNUtoo|laptop> I meant not a lot of daemon 
20100928 23:20:23< GNUtoo|laptop> or stuff written in python
20100928 23:20:26< GNUtoo|laptop> or similar things
20100928 23:20:46< Ivanovic> nah, it is rather slim, there are basically 200MB for apps (unless the user themself does run stuff in the background)
20100928 23:20:54< GNUtoo|laptop> ok
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20100928 23:21:58< GNUtoo|laptop> so rougly official stuff like maemo got a lot more problems with ram, but got 3d, stuff like openembedded has issues with 3d but get more ram
20100928 23:22:01< Ivanovic> *if* the game area zooming would be handled nicely by opengl (in a way that is fast enough and does not consume too much ram!) we would still have to adjust the other gui elements to work nicely
20100928 23:22:07< GNUtoo|laptop> s/ram/free ram
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20100928 23:22:58< Ivanovic> hmm, we could use some decent testcase for ram usage to compare some things
20100928 23:23:31< Ivanovic> the things to compare are basically: ram usage in trunk without anything special, ram usage with the lowmem param set, ram usage with tinygui set
20100928 23:24:00< Ivanovic> so that we get some idea what the difference between plain lowmem and normal as well as lowmem and tinygui with lowmem is
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20100928 23:24:51< Ivanovic> i *assume* that the drop from normal to lowmem (if we really do deactivate all the stuff, maybe boucman knows what is deactivated in which way) is about as large as the drop from lowmem to lowmem with tinygui
20100928 23:25:15< GNUtoo|laptop> btw I've made some videos
20100928 23:25:17< Ivanovic> since by now i'd guess that 3/4 of our image ram usage is by animations and the likes
20100928 23:25:18< GNUtoo|laptop> are you interested
20100928 23:25:22< boucman> I know the parts that are happening in the unit anim part..
20100928 23:25:23< Ivanovic> always
20100928 23:25:23< GNUtoo|laptop> but they are only for htcdream
20100928 23:25:29< GNUtoo|laptop> note 2 things before:
20100928 23:25:36< GNUtoo|laptop> *I've cheap slow microsd
20100928 23:25:41< GNUtoo|laptop> so loading is slow
20100928 23:25:53< boucman> Ivanovic: for unit anims we basically drop all images except the base frame
20100928 23:26:05< GNUtoo|laptop> *the htcdream is on a table with a webcam on top of it
20100928 23:26:13< Ivanovic> boucman: any idea how it looks regarding terrains and terrain animations?
20100928 23:26:13< GNUtoo|laptop> so it's very difficult to use
20100928 23:26:27< boucman> I don't think anything is done for terrains
20100928 23:26:36< GNUtoo|laptop> in real scenario aiming at things are a lot easier
20100928 23:26:38< GNUtoo|laptop> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zs4Z0It7mA4
20100928 23:26:43< boucman> IIRC there were too few anims at that time to make it worth special casing...
20100928 23:26:48< Ivanovic> terrains should probably be dropped at least to a "no animations" level, too
20100928 23:27:04< Ivanovic> since by now terrain animations *are* noteworthy
20100928 23:27:20< boucman> IIRC there is a preproc define for low_mem that could be used to deactivate animations/transitions directly in WML, though
20100928 23:27:42< Ivanovic> alink: in general i would be realy interested in those mem usage stats in your current opengl work, too (if it can be tested)
20100928 23:28:27< Ivanovic> eleazzaar, zookeeper: could you have a look at this stuff? (aka deactivating terrain animations in lowmem mode using WML defines)
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20100928 23:29:37< boucman> Ivanovic: my guess is that deactivating transitions would help a lot, that is a lot of images (probably way more than anims) so much less ram 
20100928 23:29:55< Ivanovic> might be
20100928 23:30:04< Ivanovic> maybe this can be added to the default macros?
20100928 23:30:08< eleazzaar> boucman: castles basically disapear without transitions
20100928 23:30:30< Ivanovic> eleazzaar: that is why it would make sense to work via macros
20100928 23:30:36< boucman> eleazzaar: taht's why I want to do it at WML level and not at engine level, we need to select what transition to remove
20100928 23:30:41< Ivanovic> some macros that make transitions and animations vanish
20100928 23:30:48< Ivanovic> and others that let only animations vanish
20100928 23:31:23< Ivanovic> GNUtoo|laptop: looks close to unusable with buttons this tiny
20100928 23:31:56< zookeeper> sure, we can probably use #ifdefs to cut out arbitrary terrain graphics stuff
20100928 23:32:18< eleazzaar> maybe 3 or 4 levels?  1 minimal transitions no animations.  2 all transitions, no animations, 3 all transitions, minimal animations, 4 everything
20100928 23:32:21< GNUtoo|laptop> I would say mitigated
20100928 23:32:27< GNUtoo|laptop> because:
20100928 23:32:27< CIA-35> esr * r46806 /trunk/data/campaigns/Under_the_Burning_Suns/ (2 files in 2 dirs): 
20100928 23:32:27< CIA-35> Now that there's a Mudcrawler unit in core, remove the duplicative UtBS
20100928 23:32:27< CIA-35> "Small Mudcrawler" and use the core unit instead.
20100928 23:32:30< zookeeper> however as far as animations are concerned, engine-level would make much more sense to me
20100928 23:32:30< GNUtoo|laptop> <GNUtoo|laptop> in real scenario aiming at things are a lot easier
20100928 23:32:42< GNUtoo|laptop> but indeed button could be bigger
20100928 23:32:59< GNUtoo|laptop> also 
20100928 23:33:05< GNUtoo|laptop> the device has a mouse-trackball
20100928 23:33:14< GNUtoo|laptop> that makes things a lot easier
20100928 23:33:19< boucman> zookeeper: agreed for animations 
20100928 23:33:29< GNUtoo|laptop> the top-menu are a big problem
20100928 23:33:37< GNUtoo|laptop> the other are less a problem but still
20100928 23:33:50< zookeeper> we can easily #ifdef away all the regular flat transitions. castles and walls and chasms can and should remain untouched.
20100928 23:34:16< GNUtoo|laptop> there is also a keyboard
20100928 23:34:39< Ivanovic> GNUtoo|laptop: regarding the via at around 5:50 i'd say that you could use larger hex...
20100928 23:34:54< esr_> zookeeper: ping?
20100928 23:34:55< Ivanovic> probably somewhere in the middle between 72x72 and 36x36
20100928 23:35:49< zookeeper> esr_, yes?
20100928 23:36:09< zookeeper> UtBS small mudcrawlers have a weak melee attack, the core ones don't...
20100928 23:36:17< GNUtoo|laptop> on the video it looks worse than in the real life
20100928 23:36:19< GNUtoo|laptop> but...
20100928 23:36:20< alink> engine already support disabling terrain animation via the "animate map" option. But yeah only load the first frame is easy
20100928 23:36:27< GNUtoo|laptop> yes larger things are better
20100928 23:36:50< GNUtoo|laptop> for that device...
20100928 23:36:57< esr_> There are a couple places in mainline that were using a trrain/water/coast.png image that is now gone.  What should replace it?
20100928 23:36:59< GNUtoo|laptop> and maybe in general
20100928 23:37:09< GNUtoo|laptop> for freerunner it's a lot smaller
20100928 23:37:28< esr_> zookeeper: OK, I'll take a look and make a derived unit instead.
20100928 23:37:28< Ivanovic> i don't think that wesnoth is really usable on the htc considering how small things are compared to your finger
20100928 23:37:47< zookeeper> esr_, no need
20100928 23:37:50< Ivanovic> at least not in the current form
20100928 23:38:02< eleazzaar> esr_: .../coast-tile.png
20100928 23:38:08< zookeeper> esr_, we can just make all the UtBS mudcrawlers receive an extra attack with an object or something
20100928 23:38:40< esr_> zookeeper: I don't know how to do that; I'd have to leave it up to you.
20100928 23:38:46< Ivanovic> alink: yeah, just loading what really is required sounds like a good idea to me regarding "being able to deactivate stuff"
20100928 23:38:47< zookeeper> sure, i can do it
20100928 23:39:29< alink> Ivanovic: btw the main problem with supporting slow ogl software stuff, is that the usual good way to use ogl is to redraw everything for each frame, which is more expensive than our current SDL way (only redraw what changed) if rendering is not accelerated 
20100928 23:39:46< esr_> eleazzaar: those dot paths are horrible for imy sanity checkers.  What's the acrual path relative to data/core/imaages.
20100928 23:40:06< Ivanovic> alink: but i think that wesnoth would still be playable with some 5fps if there are no animations anyway
20100928 23:40:15< mordante> alink, I get about 30 fps with 100% CPU usage one 1920x1200 with OGL, will test more tomorrow
20100928 23:40:16< Ivanovic> without animations it can't look too slugish
20100928 23:40:30< eleazzaar> esr_: the path is unchanged  just add "-tile.png" to the filename
20100928 23:40:34< mordante> that is in the right top corner of the test scenario
20100928 23:40:41< esr_> Ah, OK.
20100928 23:40:46< Ivanovic> mordante: use isle of the damned at the top
20100928 23:40:51< Ivanovic> at the top right that is
20100928 23:41:05< mordante> Ivanovic, tomorrow, need some sleep now
20100928 23:41:05< Ivanovic> there are huge potions of water there which makes it a decent test for drawing speed
20100928 23:41:09< Ivanovic> okay
20100928 23:41:22< alink> mordante: huh? with the ogl branch, I didn't commit anything yet
20100928 23:41:23< mordante> also want to recompile in release mode
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20100928 23:41:43< mordante> alink, oh ok, then it's with wesnoth as is ;-)
20100928 23:41:45< Ivanovic> alink: this is speed in normal "everything done via sdl" mode
20100928 23:41:49< Ivanovic> ;)
20100928 23:42:07< Ivanovic> and so we got some testcase how it decreases
20100928 23:42:21< mordante> before at 1024x768 I was between 100 and 150 fps
20100928 23:43:08< alink> mordante: but thanks for already testing it ;-p
20100928 23:43:16< mordante> you're welcome
20100928 23:43:37< mordante> maybe tomorrow I can test properly isle of the damned with OGL ;-)
20100928 23:44:19< Ivanovic> mordante: you should test it once without opengl and once with so that we have comparable data from one and the same machine
20100928 23:44:28< alink> I will commit it my ogl code soon, today or tomorrow 
20100928 23:44:33< Ivanovic> and you should test it once with scrolling and once with just staying in the area
20100928 23:44:46< mordante> Ivanovic, I have enough checkouts to compare them ;-)
20100928 23:44:52< Ivanovic> :)
20100928 23:44:56< zookeeper> esr_, eh, well, actually i'll just make a derivative mudcrawler type after all, it's cleaner that way...
20100928 23:45:10< esr_> zookeeper: I thought it might be.
20100928 23:45:12< alink> but this fps will don't means much (will be mush slower), I am just aiming for correct rendering for now
20100928 23:46:15< mordante> alink, agreed but will be nice to test regularly to see whether my ancient driver version gets faster or slower
20100928 23:46:22< CIA-35> espreon * r46807 /trunk/data/campaigns/ (3 files in 3 dirs): Ran umcpropfix.
20100928 23:46:22< alink> Ivanovic: btw the SDL-by-OGL should not use more memory. And next step should only use video memory
20100928 23:46:41< alink> mordante: ok
20100928 23:46:52< mordante> and of course once switched to OGL we can also optimize the rest of the code
20100928 23:47:08< mordante> the gui code does quite a bit of unrendering which can be removed then
20100928 23:47:13< Ivanovic> alink: any idea how it will work with software rendering and zooming?
20100928 23:47:22< mordante> and OGL also has line primitives instead of putting pixels
20100928 23:47:44< alink> mordante: yeah that's the plan, allow to progressively optimize each part to opengl, and still have a working game during the process
20100928 23:47:47< Ivanovic> if that worked well i'd propose that we use some "scaled by default" mode instead of the current way tinyhui is handled
20100928 23:48:25< mordante> alink, well I look forward to it :-)
20100928 23:48:32< Ivanovic> would be using more ram because the base images are larger, but personally i'd say that we are fine as long as we are below lets say 100MB ram usage overal
20100928 23:48:39< Ivanovic> (with lowmem active)
20100928 23:48:54< mordante> but I'm off now, night
20100928 23:49:10< alink> mordante: gn
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20100928 23:50:15< alink> Ivanovic: hum, sorry maybe I was not clear, my hack allows to easily scale by GPU, but I didn't coded anything for that. And will not do it on this temporary hack
20100928 23:50:18< Ivanovic> okay, we got no information of recent memory consumption
20100928 23:50:28< GNUtoo|laptop> not great on freerunner:
20100928 23:50:29< GNUtoo|laptop> root@om-gta02 ~ # wesnoth 
20100928 23:50:30< GNUtoo|laptop> Illegal instruction
20100928 23:50:40< Ivanovic> alink: yes, i know
20100928 23:50:45< GNUtoo|laptop> I must gdb it
20100928 23:50:51< GNUtoo|laptop> or rather gdbserver+gdb
20100928 23:50:54< alink> it's a one-liner to have a half-size render window. but others things will bugs
20100928 23:51:13< Ivanovic> alink: the basic question is just how it will work with software scaling stuff, but mordante can easily test this on his system without hardware accell
20100928 23:51:23< zookeeper> hrhm, anyone remember who added [base_unit]?
20100928 23:51:48< Ivanovic> if this would work nicely and memory saving with lowmem are "good enough" i'd say that we should drop tinygui and rely on this system
20100928 23:52:12< alink> Ivanovic: any useful measure will need to wait that I use texture (since it's how GPU scale efficiently)
20100928 23:52:32< Ivanovic> alink: the interesting numbers for mobile devices are the ones without gpu acceleration
20100928 23:52:58< Ivanovic> alink: since many devices seem to not have easily available hardware acceleration and thus got to do it via some software renderer
20100928 23:53:20< alink> Ivanovic: I mean the current code and method will never be used in any realease. It's just transition stuff
20100928 23:53:21< Ivanovic> because of this i think that the numbers are *very* usable to give us an idea if it is bad or not
20100928 23:53:35< Ivanovic> later on it can likely only get better, not worse
20100928 23:54:09< Ivanovic> these are the latest mem consumption numbers we have, they are basically from 1.4: https://mail.gna.org/public/wesnoth-dev/2008-02/msg00079.html
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20100928 23:55:39< Ivanovic> once we have some memory savings from terrains in lowmem mode i'd guess that memory usage should be a significant difference between normal and "low mem, no anim, no facing" (what we currently have as lowmem)
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20100928 23:56:12< evilshadowmaster> alink: how's your hack coming along btw?
20100928 23:56:27< alink> Ivanovic: to be clear about my hack: final true ogl code will not use the same ogl calls and not use memory like that. There is no link between them
20100928 23:56:46< Ivanovic> alink: currently we are talking about two seperate things
20100928 23:56:49< alink> evilshadowmaster: works perfectly (but slower) here, almost ready to commit
20100928 23:56:58< alink> Ivanovic: possibly :)
20100928 23:57:12< Ivanovic> alink: one is memory usage, i already understood that you current, "won't ever be released", version should be comparable to the sdl version
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20100928 23:57:27< alink> Ivanovic: exact same
20100928 23:57:32< Ivanovic> so doing estimates regarding memory usage for the opengl build itself does not help
20100928 23:57:36< zookeeper> ah, right, [base_unit] was added by sapient it seems.
20100928 23:58:01< Ivanovic> the 2nd thing is the speed we have in opengl mode when zooming with a software based opengl backend (aka no gpu acceleration, just mesa sw rasterizer)
20100928 23:58:15-!- billynux [~billy@wesnoth/developer/billynux] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
20100928 23:58:19< Ivanovic> the idea is if this is working nicely and fast enough we could drop tinygui
20100928 23:58:56< Ivanovic> though for dropping tinygui we also have to reduce memory usage in lowmem mode eg by deactivating "maybe useless" terrain transitions as well as loading images when terrain animations are not active
20100928 23:59:51< Ivanovic> my idea is that if we get memory usage in a "common" setup with the current sdl based renderer and lowmem option down to something like 100MB without using tinygui we should be rather fine
20100928 23:59:58< alink> Ivanovic: hmmm note that by keeping the 50% scaling on disk, you allow to use 4x more images 
--- Log closed Wed Sep 29 00:00:00 2010