--- Log opened Fri Oct 08 00:00:27 2010
20101008 00:02:37< CIA-35> espreon * r46953 /trunk/data/ (30 files in 6 dirs): Moved the Fire Guardian to core.
20101008 00:04:18< CIA-35> espreon * r46954 /trunk/data/core/units/monsters/Fire_Guardian.cfg: Wired in better images and sounds; added better attack animations.
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20101008 00:12:50< CIA-35> espreon * r46955 /trunk/data/campaigns/Under_the_Burning_Suns/utils/storytxt.cfg: Made underscore placement consistent.
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20101008 00:19:55< CIA-35> espreon * r46956 /trunk/data/campaigns/Under_the_Burning_Suns/utils/terrain.cfg: Commented out UtBS's walkable lava overlay's translatable name for consistency with the normal lava.
20101008 00:21:41< CIA-35> espreon * r46957 /trunk/data/campaigns/Under_the_Burning_Suns/utils/terrain.cfg: Changed the campfire overlay's id to 'campfire'.
20101008 00:22:06< zookeeper> Espreon, btw, that walkable lava overlay's aliasing is botched up, i think it's been giving 0% defense for most units for a year now... i'm trying to come up with a good fix for that though.
20101008 00:22:34< Espreon> Hmmmmm... I'll take a look at it.
20101008 00:22:42< Espreon> .. after more id simplification.
20101008 00:23:45< CIA-35> zookeeper * r46958 /trunk/data/core/units/monsters/Fire_Guardian.cfg: Tweaked the Fire Guardian's melee animation.
20101008 00:24:03< Espreon> zookeeper: Thanks.
20101008 00:24:25< zookeeper> well, as i said i'm trying to sort it out... it's not an entirely simple thing, at least if you want to keep the number of alias terrains below 3.
20101008 00:24:32< zookeeper> anyways, gotta go ->
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20101008 00:27:14< CIA-35> espreon * r46959 /trunk/data/campaigns/Under_the_Burning_Suns/utils/terrain.cfg: Made it so that all terrain ids in UtBS are like those of the core terrains.
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20101008 00:41:30< CIA-35> espreon * r46960 /trunk/data/campaigns/Under_the_Burning_Suns/ (scenarios/08_Out_of_the_Frying_Pan.cfg utils/macros.cfg): Removed the now-obsolete REMOVE_UNIT_OVERLAY.
20101008 00:45:19< CIA-35> espreon * r46961 /trunk/data/campaigns/Under_the_Burning_Suns/ (scenarios/08_Out_of_the_Frying_Pan.cfg utils/macros.cfg): Removed the now-obsolete UNIT_OVERLAY.
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20101008 00:51:19< CIA-35> espreon * r46962 /trunk/data/campaigns/Under_the_Burning_Suns/scenarios/01_The_Morning_After.cfg: Removed a useless comment.
20101008 00:53:03< CIA-35> espreon * r46963 /trunk/data/campaigns/Under_the_Burning_Suns/ (scenarios/01_The_Morning_After.cfg utils/time.cfg): Removed comments about the time cycle to time.cfg.
20101008 00:53:25< Espreon> Whoops...
20101008 00:53:37< Espreon> Meh, whatever.
20101008 00:55:02< CIA-35> espreon * r46964 /trunk/data/campaigns/Under_the_Burning_Suns/scenarios/01_The_Morning_After.cfg: Removed more useless comments.
20101008 01:01:38< CIA-35> espreon * r46965 /trunk/data/campaigns/Under_the_Burning_Suns/scenarios/01_The_Morning_After.cfg: Removed references to Garak and Zhul from the starting objectives; will add code to update objectives to mention them as they're encountered soon; broke up an objective into two.
20101008 01:05:19< shadowm_laptop>  Network connection closed unexpectedly: To better debug SSH connection problems, remove the -q option from 'ssh' in the [tunnels] section of your Subversion configuration file.:  at /usr/lib/git-core/git-svn line 1770
20101008 01:05:30< shadowm_laptop> shikadibot: log HEAD
20101008 01:05:32< shikadibot> Revision 46965 (espreon, 2010-10-07 23:01:24 +0000 (Thu, 07 Oct 2010)):
20101008 01:05:35< shikadibot> Removed references to Garak and Zhul from the starting objectives; will add code to update objectives to mention them as they're encountered soon; broke up an objective into two.
20101008 01:05:38< shadowm_laptop> okay, then it's at my end.
20101008 01:05:40< shikadibot> Web interface URL: http://svn.gna.org/viewcvs/wesnoth?view=rev&rev=46965
20101008 01:06:01< shadowm_laptop> but I don't have any clue what could be wrong.
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20101008 01:08:08< shadowm_laptop> right. Now that I'm trying to check what's wrong it starts working again.
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20101008 01:12:32< shadowm_laptop> does anyone know whether it makes sense to use  nice -n 19 scons -j 2, or the two processes end up negating the benefit of niceness?
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20101008 01:26:37< CIA-35> espreon * r46966 /trunk/data/campaigns/Under_the_Burning_Suns/scenarios/01_The_Morning_After.cfg: Added 'Death of X' objectives for Garak and Zhul that show when they appear.
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20101008 01:42:14< CIA-35> espreon * r46967 /trunk/data/campaigns/Under_the_Burning_Suns/scenarios/ (8 files): Broke up the 'Death of <heroes>' objectives into multiple objectives.
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20101008 01:42:33< Espreon> That's all for tonight.
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20101008 02:28:46< [Relic]> Hello :)
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20101008 09:10:51< zookeeper> Espreon, [remove_unit_overlay] and [unit_overlay] take [filter]s? at least the wiki doesn't say so.
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20101008 09:35:08< Soliton> ilor: i'm around for addon server talk now.
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20101008 09:40:12< Crab_> zookeeper: I've wanted to ask your opinion on https://gna.org/patch/?2039 - a thing is possible to do via [era][event]name=prestart[modify_ai]  ,  should we allow it to be [era][modify_ai] as well ?
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20101008 09:52:42< zookeeper> Crab_, reading...
20101008 09:54:33< Crab_> (the alternate way also requires a foreach loop on teams, so it's slightly more difficult)
20101008 09:55:40< zookeeper> not really, you could use [event] name=side turn first_time_only=no [condition] [variable] name=side_$side_number|_ai_set boolean_equals=no
20101008 09:56:24< Crab_> yes, you're right
20101008 09:56:25< zookeeper> considering that, i'm not sure how useful that feature would really be... unfortunately i'm still not an AI expert ;)
20101008 09:56:38< zookeeper> s/condition/filter_condition
20101008 09:57:14< zookeeper> it feels weird to have a [modify_ai] in [era]...why not just [ai]?
20101008 09:58:26< Crab_> zookeeper: [ai] can be in era, too, when we want the era to define new ais. and modify_ai is useful when we want to amend an existing ai without knowing what's in it (knowing only the fact that it has a 'candidate-action based control loop', or just adding new things to do at the beginning of turn'
20101008 10:00:54< zookeeper> right
20101008 10:01:28< zookeeper> well, personally it seems like a somewhat redundant feature since you can easily do it with an event
20101008 10:03:07< zookeeper> heck, you don't even need a [filter_condition], you can just use name=side turn 1
20101008 10:03:17< fendrin> zookeeper: I like the [global_event] silene coded http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?p=459803#p459803 to be going into mainline. Do you support that?
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20101008 10:04:37< zookeeper> fendrin, i'd like global events too, but i don't like having to put them in a [scenario] as seems to be the case there. i think they ought to be real top-level tags.
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20101008 10:05:21< zookeeper> i mean, i'd like global events for things like event-driven abilities, since the current method for them is inadequate.
20101008 10:06:37< zookeeper> silene's way apparently is just halfways there, and doesn't offer anything that couldn't already be done using a simple [filter_condition]
20101008 10:06:59< fendrin> zookeeper: If they were campaign specific, should they go into [campaign]?
20101008 10:07:36< zookeeper> no, they'd go to top-level inside the campaign #ifdef
20101008 10:08:45< fendrin> Hmmm, should work the same. I find the location being inside [campaign] just somewhat more sorted.
20101008 10:09:33< zookeeper> well then you can't have truly global events. like one which handles feeding.
20101008 10:11:50< fendrin> It's not that I don't want them to not work in other situations like in abilities as well.
20101008 10:12:05< fendrin> Hmmm, maybe to much not in that sentence.
20101008 10:12:45< zookeeper> Crab_, so, about the patch: i don't have a problem with adding rarely helpful new features like that except due to added code complexity. whether that's an issue is more of a coder's consideration though...all i can say is that it just seems like a simple shortcut for something that is rarely done in the first place.
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20101008 10:13:45< Crab_> zookeeper: ok, I've asked the patch author about 'side turn 1' - maybe it'll work for him. if not, we can consider committing the patch.
20101008 10:14:01< Crab_> thanks
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20101008 10:20:52< Ivanovic> moin
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20101008 11:40:38< FAAB1> hi Crab_, I have seen the log. Going by an event works for me
20101008 11:40:46< Crab_> FAAB1: ok
20101008 11:41:14< FAAB1> you can close patch 1666 for me too, as it is basically the same problem
20101008 11:41:52< Crab_> no, there's still some things to check in there
20101008 11:42:07< Crab_> but thanks for the patch, in any case
20101008 11:42:08< FAAB1> some more info on the wiki about [modify_ai] would be nice though. I thought it was limited to a [side] tag
20101008 11:42:53< FAAB1> Crab_: I mean for me you can drop 1666, I don't need it anymore (and you obviously don't either ;)
20101008 11:43:21< Crab_> FAAB1: no, there was something I wanted to do wrt 1666, the existing code is not clear in one place, afair
20101008 11:43:28< Crab_> wiki says '[modify_ai] is a powerful WML tag which allows to add and delete ai components. it can be used either in [side][ai] and in [event].' @ http://wiki.wesnoth.org/Customizing_AI_in_Wesnoth_1.8#.5Bmodify_ai.5D_tag
20101008 11:43:33< Crab_> I guess I need an example.
20101008 11:43:45< Crab_> s/need/need to add/
20101008 11:44:42< Crab_> and [modify_ai] in events allow you to change the ai on the fly, at any time
20101008 11:45:11< Crab_> for example, LoW 2 uses it to dynamically change the 'avoid' aspect 
20101008 11:45:48< FAAB1> I see, the wiki seems clear about that, now that I know it. I don't know how I missed it.
20101008 11:46:47< Crab_> maybe because it's missing in http://wiki.wesnoth.org/DirectActionsWML
20101008 11:48:30< Crab_> so, something like '[modify_ai] side=1 path=... action=add  ... [/modify_ai]' works (or any of the macroses)
20101008 11:48:45< Crab_> and, if in side turn 1, current side can be taken from WML var.
20101008 11:49:39< FAAB1> ok, all good, thanks for your time !
20101008 11:49:45< Crab_> great
20101008 11:54:27< Crab_> added ref to modify_ai in DirectActionsWML and list of wml tags.
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20101008 13:46:59< fendrin> esr: ping
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20101008 13:59:16< esr> fendrin: What's up?
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20101008 14:00:26< fendrin> esr: AI0867 asked me to point you to a forum thread and a wiki page which contradict each other and belong in your refugee as lord of prose.
20101008 14:00:44< fendrin> They are: http://wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=31830&sid=0677e95c3b95fbd6c2f346627e5b4812
20101008 14:01:00< fendrin> And: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/index.php?title=SecretLore&oldid=38353
20101008 14:07:42< esr> fendrin: So, the debate is the existence of half-breeds?
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20101008 14:09:22< fendrin> esr: Yes, it seems that there is no appearance of a half-breed in mainline. And all developers who participated in the thread are the opinion that half breeds are not a good idea for wesnoth. I myself could live with half breeds.
20101008 14:11:00< esr> I don't actually have a developed position either way. 
20101008 14:11:58< fendrin> esr: Another issue not discussed in the thread is the gun powder invented by the dwarfs. AFAIK the thunderer line's weapon does not use gun powder but some kind of discharge of a rare element/mineral or some magic explanation. But I can't come up with a reference. It has been some years since that discussion took place. 
20101008 14:13:04< esr> Hm. I thought it was just black powder. But canon is not specific enough about the properties of the stuff that we need to decide it.
20101008 14:15:37-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: 161 bugs, 297 feature requests, 15 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
20101008 14:16:08< zookeeper> calling it gunpowder has specifically been avoided
20101008 14:16:46< zookeeper> (likewise calling the sticks guns)
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20101008 14:19:45 * esr removes the term "black-powder" from the wiki.
20101008 14:20:07< fendrin> Yes, I think to remember that Dave felt not good about the existence of gun powder to avoid the cry for cannons and explosive charges.
20101008 14:20:10< esr> About the half-breeds...
20101008 14:20:34< esr> (It's good that zookeeper is here to be in this discussion.)
20101008 14:21:32< esr> We do have one constraint: canon establishes that humans and elves can respond to each others' sexual sgnals.  
20101008 14:23:29< fendrin> Dwarves, humans, elves and orcs are that much similar to each other that sexual compatibility isn't far away for my thinking.
20101008 14:24:08< fendrin> I can see dogs that are more distinguishable but still are able to have childdogs together.
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20101008 14:25:13< fendrin> I bet an alien race visiting wesnoth wouldn't see a difference between elves and humans on a first or even a second glance.
20101008 14:26:23< esr> Right. We have three possibilities:  (1) Half-breeds never happen, (2) half-breeds are possible but almost always sterile (like lions and tigers), (3) half-breeds are common.
20101008 14:27:08< lgn> hi
20101008 14:28:11< zookeeper> i'd go for either (1) or (1.5) half-breeds are possible but almost always sterile (like lions and tigers) and exceedingly rare :p
20101008 14:28:17< esr> I think we can rule out (3) as a "nobody wants to go there" mess.
20101008 14:28:21< zookeeper> yeah
20101008 14:28:26< fendrin> I guess the outcome depends much on how the species came in place. Tolkien for example took the road to tell orcs being elves manipulated by Morgoth (The mentor of Sauron).
20101008 14:28:44 * zookeeper doesn't want to go there either
20101008 14:29:09< lgn> maybe someone can help: I have a problem when playing the Legend of Wesmere campaign chapter one with my brother
20101008 14:29:42< lgn> I have v1.9.1 build via svn and he uses the windows build available ont he wesnoth.org website
20101008 14:29:43< fendrin> Well, do we have darwin's evolution in wesnoth? And do the human like races have common ancestors?
20101008 14:29:52< esr> I think I go for (1) in most cases with (2) for humans and elves.
20101008 14:29:57< lgn> system is debian-lenny
20101008 14:30:22< zookeeper> fendrin, well, that's exactly where i wouldn't want to go ;)
20101008 14:30:25< esr> fendrin: worgh thinking about, yes.
20101008 14:30:31< lgn> after scenario Ki'lian under attack the game doesnt advance to the next scenario instead the game host is kicked back to the lobby
20101008 14:31:01< fendrin> Or are elves just humans that are adapted to a different environment. Like humans on earth don't come in what is technical called races but are just different because of different genes are active?
20101008 14:31:28< lgn> furthermore the character Galtrid is still (was in v1.8 stable too) named Kalzenz during the mission is dialogs and reigh-click menu
20101008 14:31:42< fendrin> Ign: Single or multiplayer? Which version?
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20101008 14:32:52< lgn> Multiplayer 2p: V1.9.1+svn46884 for me and v1.9.1 windows from wesnoth.org
20101008 14:33:16< lgn> could this be a problem with slightlx different builds?
20101008 14:35:00< fendrin> Ign: I think I have fixed all the issues mentioned by you in svn head.
20101008 14:35:49< lgn> ah, fine thx
20101008 14:35:55< lgn> will give it a try later
20101008 14:35:55< fendrin> Ign: The end of the multiplayer campaign afte scenario 3 is intentional. Scenario 4 belongs to chapter 2.
20101008 14:37:10< fendrin> Ign: The split is because you need another player for Cleodil from 4 on, and it is harder to find one from an already started campaign. So you can start chapter 2 and the recruit lists and gold amounts should be load from a persistent global variable.
20101008 14:37:52< fendrin> Ign: Please test the latest svn version and come back to give me feedback if it works. :-)
20101008 14:40:33< lgn> ok will do
20101008 14:41:17< lgn> we tought so too for a while btw but http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=28823&start=30 last post stated that chapter one features the scenarios 1-7
20101008 14:41:37< esr> fendrin: One possible theory is that humans and elves *used* to be one breeding population, but are now speciating due to Elvish contact with the faerie realm.  I think that may fit canon facts best.
20101008 14:42:04< fendrin> Yes, that is sound.
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20101008 14:44:06< esr> zookeeper: Does that theory work for you?
20101008 14:44:19< zookeeper> hrhm...
20101008 14:45:05< zookeeper> not sure
20101008 14:45:07< fendrin> It's not that I want to insist on one of the 3 solutions. I just want to have it fit, being logical in some way.
20101008 14:45:43< zookeeper> fendrin, why do we need a solution? does someone want to have half-breeds in mainline or was it just a forum discussion we can just as well ignore?
20101008 14:46:26< fendrin> zookeeper: Well, we have a wiki page that tells that half breeds do exist.
20101008 14:47:16< fendrin> zookeeper: Compare the both links I gave some minutes earlier.
20101008 14:47:57< zookeeper> fendrin, SecretLore? i don't see anything about half-breeds there
20101008 14:48:55< fendrin> Hmmm, I could bet it was written there. Maybe it has been changed in meantime or my mind is playing me tricks.
20101008 14:50:02< zookeeper> half-breeds still mostly make me thing of the particularly funny campaign backstory someone had years ago.
20101008 14:53:03< esr> zookeeper: It's written that Tallin and Eryssa had one son, as it turns out. I'd be OK with making him sterile.
20101008 14:53:20< zookeeper> ah, found it, "the shards"
20101008 14:53:35< zookeeper> "The race known as the Shards were born out of the vast army of Konrad during his fight to reclaim the throne of Wesnoth. His troops, weary of marches and  combat, would seek the company of others within the group. The result was the birth of hundreds of mixed-race children, combinations of human, elven, and dwarven bloodlines."
20101008 14:53:41< zookeeper> ...
20101008 14:54:10< fendrin> I would go for defining it on the wiki or somewhere else, just imagine someone creates a real good umc campaign that could otherwise going to be mainlined but depends on half breeds as a core story argument.   
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20101008 14:55:23< zookeeper> esr, it might have some repercussions so i'd like to avoid a hasty decision either way
20101008 14:56:07< esr> zookeeper: OK.
20101008 14:56:38< zookeeper> i don't really see a reason to allow half-breeds...they might serve as a story element, sure, but can't you get essentially the same effect by having the character raised by members of another race (like konrad, mostly)?
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20101008 14:59:04< zookeeper> if you need a half-elf, you can have an elf who was adopted by human parents, or raised by a human mage, or something. pretty much the same effect story-wise.
20101008 14:59:25< esr> zookeeper: Do you want to delete Eryssa and Tallin's offspring, then?  I think we get a similar outcome if elf/human 'breeds are infertile.
20101008 14:59:34< zookeeper> you could easily have a human living among dwarves or vice-versa, too.
20101008 15:00:17< zookeeper> esr, i'm not familiar with NR's story. if it's just a sidenote in the epilogue or something, then it wouldn't hurt to remove it i guess.
20101008 15:00:52< zookeeper> what's eryssa, a ranger/avenger?
20101008 15:01:23< esr> zookeeper: Checking...
20101008 15:01:43< zookeeper> one thing i thought about was that maybe the "path of earth" elves can produce offspring with humans, but the "path of faerie" ones can't.
20101008 15:02:41< esr> zookeeper: She's a sorceress, which is the earth-path equivalent of faerie-path shyde.  So that's OK.
20101008 15:02:41< zookeeper> (i'd still add that it's very rare to actually succeed)
20101008 15:03:36< zookeeper> or we can say that there's no crossbreeds but still mention eryssa and tallin's offspring ;)
20101008 15:03:51< esr> In fact I *already* had it as canon that the "path of earth" elves can produce offspring with humans, but the "path of faerie" ones can't.  So we're on the same page there.
20101008 15:05:52< esr> I think I favor keeping infertile half-breeds as an unusual possibility.  More drama there.
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20101008 15:10:17< zookeeper> frankly i'd prefer it if we didn't lock it down at all. if someone makes an awesome campaign we'd like to mainline, then a half-breed wouldn't be a problem, but i don't want to encourage them suddenly sprouting up everywhere since they're cool and different.
20101008 15:10:51< zookeeper> err, i meant "if someone makes an awesome campaign we'd like to mainline but which has a half-breed, then that wouldn't be a problem"
20101008 15:11:17< fendrin> Another option would be to have elves develop out of fairies and humans develop out of elves, getting farer away from the fairies more and more during the process. That way elves are the older race (which is quite common in fantasy).
20101008 15:11:30< esr> zookeeper: Er, what do you want to "not lock down"?  
20101008 15:14:51< zookeeper> esr, the answer to the question of half-breeds
20101008 15:15:39< zookeeper> a brief mention of tallin having a kid with an elf doesn't seem like something that'd warrant a clear stance on that.
20101008 15:15:39< esr> zookeeper: Oh.  Except the crew in the dev forum is pushing to have an answer.
20101008 15:17:19< zookeeper> esr, well, there's jet, TSI and eleazar there. none of them seem to be pushing to have an answer AFAICT.
20101008 15:17:29< esr> And you agreed earlier that general interbreeding isn't a place anyone wants to go.  So we're really taliking about the human/elf question.
20101008 15:18:20< esr> zookeeper: That's not how I read it.  I gave them tentative canon a few minutes ago, but am willing to change thinggs if they go ICK!
20101008 15:19:08< zookeeper> well, in any case i'd like to leave it for a day or two and see if any of them or other devs have a strong opinion on it.
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20101008 15:20:05< fendrin> Ign: I will go and correct the post. Thank you.
20101008 15:21:02< esr> zookeeper: I think what I posted is likely to elicit strong opinions if there are any out there.
20101008 15:21:08< zookeeper> i don't particularly prefer the "only elves and humans can (rarely) crossbreed" way since there's no hint of common ancestry between elves and humans any more than with humans and any other race.
20101008 15:21:17< zookeeper> esr, yeah, we'll see
20101008 15:22:54< esr> zookeeper: Actually, I do have a mild preference for elves and humans having common ancestry.  Not enough to write it into canon yet, though.  We'll see where the other devs want to take this.
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20101008 15:41:23< lgn> fendrin: you're welcome. Guess that the post is correct in itself since the further split into 5 chapters came with 1.9.1 while 1.9.0 was splitted in three.
20101008 15:43:08< lgn> It however might be a good idea to have a message at each end of a chapter stating that the chapter had been successfully done and the next one should be loaded to continue
20101008 15:45:39< lgn> furthermore: I just build the svn head and at least when loading scenario 3 (at the beginning or in each of it turns) the Galdrid character is still named Kalenz. Do I need to start the chapter from the beginning again?
20101008 15:46:17< lgn> saw in svn log that you commited a fix
20101008 15:58:43< fendrin> Ign: It should be enough to start the scenario from the prestart save. zookeeper, do you know more?
20101008 15:59:27< fendrin> Ign: The latest svn version should lead into a extra scenario that is story only and tells the players that chapter one is finished. 
20101008 16:03:46< lgn> this is fine
20101008 16:04:18< lgn> running the scenario from prestart save didnt work for me btw
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20101008 16:05:52< fendrin> Ign: Maybe the code for all scenarios is stored in the save for a multiplayer campaign. That would explain your observation. 
20101008 16:08:37< lgn> could be..maybe in this "new persistent global variables feature"
20101008 16:09:17< lgn> I also see that the Fog of war issue is still in existent, or is this intended?
20101008 16:09:55< lgn> both players dont share the same view
20101008 16:10:22< fendrin> Fixed in svn for scenario 3.
20101008 16:14:18< zookeeper> fendrin, no, i don't... loading a beginning-of-scenario save is enough for changes to the scenario to take effect, if that's what you're asking.
20101008 16:15:12< fendrin> zookeeper: Right, that is true for singleplayer scenarios/campaigns. But does it also hold for multiplayer campaigns? Ign claims to observe it doesn't.
20101008 16:15:57< lgn> fogging issue is also still there when loading save
20101008 16:16:07< lgn> maybe i'm doing sth. wrong
20101008 16:17:28< fendrin> Ign: You need to load from a prestart savegame. One that has not a specific turn number in it's name.
20101008 16:17:55< lgn> yes I did
20101008 16:18:40< lgn> game loaded was "Ka'lian under attack.gz"
20101008 16:18:58< fendrin> Yes, that should do it.
20101008 16:19:51< lgn> svn revision is 46967
20101008 16:20:56< fendrin> 46931 was the last change to LoW.
20101008 16:21:42< lgn> I replaced my brothers character with 'local player' that's a difference but don't think that can cause it
20101008 16:23:12< fendrin> Ign: Are you sure your wesnoth is using the right data directory? I guess you have both, 1.9.1 release and the 1.9.1+svn version around and it is using the wrong one.
20101008 16:24:02< zookeeper> fendrin, well, i've never tried so i don't know
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20101008 16:39:59< lgn> don't have 1.9.1 but there a 1.65 and 1.8 (via backports.org) installed
20101008 16:41:44< fendrin> Ign: Ubuntu?
20101008 16:41:52< lgn> debian-lenny
20101008 16:42:08< fendrin> Ign: If you start wesnoth on the command line it will tell you which data directory is used. 
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20101008 16:42:46< lgn> Data directory: /home/debian/src/wesnoth
20101008 16:42:52< lgn> should be correct
20101008 16:43:02< lgn> Build using SCons
20101008 16:43:07< fendrin> Ign: Did you start from commandline before?
20101008 16:43:11< lgn> yes
20101008 16:43:35< lgn> User configuration directory: /home/debian/.wesnoth
20101008 16:43:35< lgn> User data directory: /home/debian/.wesnoth
20101008 16:43:54< lgn> this might this interfere with other versions installed?
20101008 16:48:45< fendrin> Ign: I have just looked into a savegame. Unlike single player campaigns the savefile does include the scenario's code, so you need to load a late save from the previous scenario. Maybe you can go an from the replay save.
20101008 16:52:12< lgn> The only save game I have is hostile mountains show replay and this brings me unintended back to the beginning of scenario 2
20101008 16:53:21< lgn> I gonna play it later and will then inform you whether I can confirm that the mentioned issues had been gone
20101008 16:53:28< lgn> thanks for your help sofar
20101008 16:54:04< fendrin> Ign: No problem, thank you for the feedback. I hope you do enjoy playtesting campaign even if it is in a very fragile state right now.
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20101008 16:59:58< vcap> lgn: your user data directory is likely to be the same than the other installed versions. with scons you can set the "version_suffix" to prevent this (it will then be /home/debian/.wesnoth$version_suffix).
20101008 17:02:32< lgn> vap: ok I will take a look. But I also saw that the other version have a data directory called .wesnoth1.8 and .wesnoth1.6 repectively
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20101008 17:05:09< lgn> wb
20101008 17:05:26< lgn> oopps gone already :-}
20101008 17:06:28< vcap> lgn: ah, they won't interfere, then. still, setting the version_suffix in your own builds can help prevent future confusions.
20101008 17:07:04< lgn> fedrin: yes I do enjoy playtesting the campaign although I think it became a lot easier when changing scenario 1 from a run and hide to an attack scenario
20101008 17:07:42< lgn> My brother and me could level quite a lot of creatures to lvl2 so that we could almost beat the dwarf in scenario 2 aswell :-)
20101008 17:08:58< lgn> what I really do appriciate in scenario 3 is the widening map when Klazenz arrives and the zweo smaller castles for spawning (that was priviously a bit difficult)
20101008 17:09:30< lgn> not to mention the many smaller changes in terms of the graphics...just awesome really
20101008 17:10:43< lgn> vcap: will do
20101008 17:11:16< lgn> am out for a while c u
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20101008 19:46:38< lgn> fendrin: this did the trick. Names and shadows are now displayed correctly.
20101008 19:47:08< fendrin> Ign: cool.
20101008 19:49:50< lgn> its now also possible to create shamans, nice
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20101008 19:50:40< fendrin> Ign: I am not sure with this. It is only as long as you play Galtrid and El'Isomithir.
20101008 19:51:05< lgn> probably but it wasn't possible before i'm sure
20101008 19:51:23< fendrin> Ign: I consider to remove them again from the recall list. They will get introduced in scenario 4.
20101008 19:51:44< lgn> only one small thing i noticed left..during the first 5 rounds mission goal display a defeat when rounds turn out..this isn't the case and I guess it's not intended
20101008 19:52:31< lgn> its more like..win (survive 5 rounds)
20101008 19:53:36< lgn> and, like somebody in the forum mentioned, it might be nice to show the bonus you get when beating the enemy leader within the first 5 rounds
20101008 19:54:39< fendrin> Ign: Thanks, I will fix it.
20101008 19:57:17< fendrin> Ign: Done, it's fixed locally. The next commit will bring it to trunk. 
20101008 19:57:37< lgn> nice, thanks
20101008 20:14:11< fendrin> zookeeper: It is possible to code an ability that let's the unit move on after it has attacked, right?
20101008 20:14:59< fendrin> zookeeper: Maybe a fixed amount of move points or the movement left before the attack.
20101008 20:15:04< zookeeper> fendrin, sure.
20101008 20:20:03< fendrin> zookeeper: I wonder why this has not been done before.
20101008 20:23:00< fendrin> http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=31848 Markm is my favorite wesnoth user.
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20101008 20:40:13< fendrin> zookeeper: Is it also possible to mark the unit not zoced? So that it can move away more than one field from the attacked unit.
20101008 20:41:34< zookeeper> fendrin, huh? what do you mean?
20101008 20:43:21< fendrin> zookeeper: After the unit with the ability I called "Withdrawal" has attacked another unit it has moved and is adjacent to the unit that was attacked. I guess that means that it is marked as being moved inside a zone of control and will only be able to move one hex no matter how much movement points there are left, or do I miss something?
20101008 20:44:07< noy> zookeeper: do you remember when bafuo introduced those changes to the AI which caused it serious issues? 
20101008 20:44:11< noy> when was that?
20101008 20:44:54< fendrin> noy: That was some shortly before the release of 1.6.
20101008 20:45:44< zookeeper> noy, hmmh, no, not really
20101008 20:46:12< noy> hmmm
20101008 20:46:23< zookeeper> fendrin, yeah, that's ZoC. what do you want to do about it?
20101008 20:46:43< zookeeper> err
20101008 20:46:48< fendrin> zookeeper: I want to delete it. The unit should be able to move like it has not moved before.
20101008 20:46:56< zookeeper> and ZoC makes you unable to move further, not able to move one hex...
20101008 20:47:03< zookeeper> well then you give it skirmisher
20101008 20:47:25< fendrin> Hmm, that is too strong.
20101008 20:48:25< fendrin> The unit can't be a full skirmisher. That would be much too overpowered.
20101008 20:49:01< zookeeper> well, what you're asking is skirmisher. it doesn't make sense any other way.
20101008 20:49:26< zookeeper> or at least can't be done any other way.
20101008 20:49:59< fendrin> Hmmm, well, I think I need to power up my c++ IDE. Har Har!
20101008 20:50:36 * zookeeper shrugs
20101008 20:50:50< zookeeper> you're talking of something horribly complicated so i don't see the point.
20101008 20:51:34< zookeeper> at least come up with a description of it first which doesn't have obvious holes
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20101008 21:08:41< mordante> servus
20101008 21:09:22< billynux> hi mordante 
20101008 21:09:29< mordante> hi billynux 
20101008 21:16:53< fendrin> hi mordante
20101008 21:17:00< mordante> hi fendrin 
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20101008 21:17:38< fendrin> zookeeper: It's working with an event in the scenario but not if the event is defined in the ability macro. I followed the example of the feeding ability.
20101008 21:19:16< kitty_> Hi!
20101008 21:19:21< kitty_> does anyone know who The South Guard's maintainer is? Or is there a general list of the maintainers anywhere?
20101008 21:19:22< mordante> hi kitty_ 
20101008 21:19:33< zookeeper> kitty_, that's me
20101008 21:19:55< zookeeper> the maintainers are mostly listed in the campaign credits, data/campaigns/<campaign>/_main.cfg
20101008 21:20:08< fendrin> hi kitty_
20101008 21:20:10< mordante> Gambit, copy/paste works for me under Debian
20101008 21:20:12< kitty_> zookeeper: I was thinking about starting new portraits for the south guard - are there story changes planned? or do you have other special ideas?
20101008 21:20:12< zookeeper> looking to do portraits? :P
20101008 21:20:46< zookeeper> kitty_, no, no story changes planned nor any other big ideas. at least not any which would require more portraits.
20101008 21:21:06< kitty_> okay than I'll stick to replacing the old ones mainly
20101008 21:21:19< zookeeper> mostly i just want to tweak the gameplay of a few of the ending scenarios, but those aren't going to require new portraits.
20101008 21:21:27< mordante> Ivanovic, nNa yeah that string is bogus, but indeed there for ages
20101008 21:25:32< zookeeper> kitty_, just remember that the only outlaw portraits needed are the ones for urza afalas (i think 1.8 still has some other ones too, but they've been removed in trunk)
20101008 21:26:44< kitty_> zookeeper: but all (three?) urzas were brothers? 
20101008 21:27:19< zookeeper> kitty_, also, do you want to use scavenger's m'brin's portrait or do a new one? stylistically his would probably fit in just fine, i just have never committed it so far...
20101008 21:28:00< zookeeper> kitty_, maybe, but the others are just pretty generic enemy leaders, they can use generic portraits
20101008 21:29:52< kitty_> zookeeper: yep, cavenger's m'brin looks fine - is it in use already? and I'm fine with using the generic portraits for the others urzas of course - less work for me ;)
20101008 21:30:41< zookeeper> no, as i said i've never committed it, but i could do so at a minute's notice ;)
20101008 21:31:07< kitty_> yeah, put him in
20101008 21:32:20< CIA-35> zookeeper * r46968 /trunk/data/campaigns/The_South_Guard/images/portraits/mal-mbrin.png: Added scavenger's portrait for Mal M'Brin.
20101008 21:45:53< CIA-35> mordante * r46969 /trunk/ (data/game_config.cfg src/game_config.cpp src/game_config.hpp): Remove unused game_logo variable.
20101008 21:45:53< CIA-35> mordante * r46970 /trunk/src/ (7 files): 
20101008 21:45:53< CIA-35> Remove some unused commented out code.
20101008 21:45:53< CIA-35> Added in r19389 and unused since. nNa discovered the unwanted
20101008 21:45:53< CIA-35> translatable strings it added, so remove the code to remove the strings.
20101008 21:46:11< mordante> Ivanovic, nNa^
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20101008 22:02:15< fendrin> zookeeper: If I store a variable like that (which works well): [set_variable] name=withdrawal_$unit.id value=$unit.moves 
20101008 22:02:45< fendrin> zookeeper: How can I get it back? moves=$withdrawal_$unit.id does not work.
20101008 22:06:22< zookeeper> does moves=$withdrawal_$unit.id|  ?
20101008 22:07:07< zookeeper> but that's seems a bad idea anyway since the id can have spaces and that'd cause a problem.
20101008 22:07:25< fendrin> Hmmm, do you have a better plan?
20101008 22:08:10< zookeeper> no, since i don't know what you need to do
20101008 22:09:03< fendrin> zookeeper: I want to store the moves left by a unit that has the withdrawal ability every time it is moved. I need to do that because at the time the attack events triggers the moves are already at 0.
20101008 22:09:24< fendrin> When the unit's attacks ends I want to restore it's moves to the saved value.
20101008 22:09:55< zookeeper> uh, just store them in unit.variables.something ?
20101008 22:10:37< fendrin> zookeeper: Good idea, can you point me to example code?
20101008 22:11:56< zookeeper> not really
20101008 22:12:20< zookeeper> what examples could you possible need? i'm sure you know how stored units work
20101008 22:15:36< fendrin> Yeah, but I don't know how to store a variable inside a unit.
20101008 22:16:32< zookeeper> a stored unit is a container
20101008 22:16:40< zookeeper> {VARIABLE myunit.variables.foobar whatever}
20101008 22:17:06< fendrin> zookeeper: And still I don't know why the events work inside the scenario but not inside the ability macro. I can't see a difference to the feed ability I copied from.
20101008 22:18:20< billynux> I'm off... see you
20101008 22:18:21< zookeeper> macros don't effect how anything works, they're just macros. inside what tag is your [event]?
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20101008 22:27:35< mordante> I'm off night
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20101008 22:29:33< fendrin> zookeeper: It's done like the feeding ability. The macro does close the ability tag. Then comes the event, then the abilities tag is opened again. That would result in the event being in [unit] I guess.
20101008 22:29:59< fendrin> That seems strange to me but it is working for the feeding ability.
20101008 22:32:08< zookeeper> [event]s in [unit] don't work
20101008 22:33:28< fendrin> Please have a look at the feeding ability. 
20101008 22:33:30< zookeeper> anyway i dislike playing the guess-my-WML-problem game, if you want me to find the problem then show me your code
20101008 22:36:31< fendrin> zookeeper: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com/N9bpxCqZ
20101008 22:37:14< zookeeper> and the part where you call that macro?
20101008 22:37:47< zookeeper> besides id=withdrawal doesn't match with ability=Withdrawal if it's case-sensitive
20101008 22:38:17< fendrin> zookeeper: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com/bTjtay3v
20101008 22:38:56< zookeeper> there's no [abilities] in SingleUnitWML
20101008 22:39:14< zookeeper> and as i said [event]s don't work in [unit] anyway
20101008 22:39:31< fendrin> And why does it work for feeding?
20101008 22:39:50< zookeeper> it doesn't
20101008 22:40:35< fendrin> But feeding works (I have tested it) and is coded the exact same way.
20101008 22:41:51< zookeeper> no it's not. the macro is defined in the same way but it's not called similarly.
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20101008 22:47:47< fendrin> Hmmm, how is it called?
20101008 22:48:26< zookeeper> ...
20101008 22:48:44< fendrin> I don't want to spawn a single unit with the ability like it is done in my test setup but have a unit line featuring the ability (Like it is done with feeding)
20101008 22:51:34< fendrin> It is called in [unit_type] [abilities].
20101008 22:51:39< zookeeper> bingo!
20101008 22:52:32< zookeeper> that's because [event] works in [unit_type].
20101008 22:52:45< fendrin> zookeeper: Ah, okay. Thank you very much.
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20101008 23:35:57 * alink kicks CIA-35
20101008 23:35:58< CIA-35> ow
20101008 23:36:33< alink> wesbot: log r46971
20101008 23:36:34< wesbot> alink * r46971 : New double-buffering method using Frame Buffer Object for the SDL emulator,which is a more standard and better way to do this.This also fix glitches when moving the window.
20101008 23:36:38< wesbot> URL: http://svn.gna.org/viewcvs/wesnoth?view=rev&rev=46971
20101008 23:36:43< alink> Ivanovic: ^could use some testing ;)
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20101008 23:37:59< alink> things to check: GUI1/2 in fullscreen and fullscreen switch, since I had (hopefully fixed) problems for that.
20101008 23:39:31< alink> here, performance are the same on normal map, slightly lower on empty map, but acceptable and not sure that swapping buffers at these rates(~200fps) gives meaningfull results
20101008 23:40:24< alink> I am also hopping to see less perf difference between drivers. At least for the double-buffering part
20101008 23:41:32< alink> This should allow to optimize scrolling too but didn't code that yet
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20101008 23:50:52< Ivanovic> alink: rebuilding
20101008 23:54:22< alink> Ivanovic: thanks
20101008 23:54:40< Espreon> zookeeper: Well... now they do.
20101008 23:55:33< Ivanovic> alink: okay, using gallium now works
20101008 23:55:42< Ivanovic> speed with gallium in 1024x768:
20101008 23:55:52< alink> Ivanovic: Remind me, it didn't work before ?
20101008 23:55:56< Ivanovic> about 60fps while idle on the map
20101008 23:56:06< Ivanovic> about 9pfs while scrolling using the arrow keys
20101008 23:56:16< Ivanovic> yeah, gallium was borked due to tiling not being compeltely implemented in the driver
20101008 23:56:34< CIA-35> alink * r46971 /branches/ogl/src/ (sdl_utils.cpp video.cpp video.hpp): 
20101008 23:56:35< CIA-35> New double-buffering method using Frame Buffer Object for the SDL emulator,
20101008 23:56:36< Ivanovic> there are some tiny glitches left on some hex every now and then but not very common
20101008 23:56:44< Espreon> zookeeper: Well, at least it works.
20101008 23:57:02< Ivanovic> using r46971
20101008 23:57:13< zookeeper> Espreon, okay... i'll verify with anonymissimus
20101008 23:57:33< alink> Ivanovic: if when scrolling, probably the not-done-yet clipping at edge of screen again
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20101008 23:58:11< CIA-35> which is a more standard and better way to do this.
20101008 23:58:11< Ivanovic> with the classic driver speed is at about 60fps while idle and drops to some 32fps as low but around 50fps average when scrolling using the error keys, it is really fluent!
20101008 23:58:12< CIA-35> This also fix glitches when moving the window.
20101008 23:58:27< Espreon> zookeeper: Hmmm, it also works without [filter]...
20101008 23:58:56< alink> Ivanovic: is it around the same as before ? or at least not too much lower
20101008 23:59:06< Ivanovic> that is significantly faster!
20101008 23:59:15< alink> ah ok good :)
20101008 23:59:22< Ivanovic> before things were at 10fps while idle in the top left corner of the first scenario of two brothers
20101008 23:59:28< Ivanovic> with the changes maybe 20fps
20101008 23:59:32< Ivanovic> now it is at 60fps
--- Log closed Sat Oct 09 00:00:08 2010