--- Log opened Sat Oct 23 00:00:59 2010
20101023 00:02:23< eleazzaar> what if any snowy forest took on nothing from "frozen"
20101023 00:02:53< eleazzaar> the idea being that enought of the snow was in the branches that snow underneath was no real hinderance?
20101023 00:04:42< zookeeper> well, that's how it worked a long time ago. the reason it was changed was that it felt silly that elves were speeding through a snowy map at 1MP as long as they kept into a forest. i could probably buy that idea if the art supported it by having a much less snow on the ground under the trees.
20101023 00:06:41< eleazzaar> well, we could actually build in some pineneedle/leaves into the forest overlays, so some of the ground would be covered no matter what the base was
20101023 00:07:06< zookeeper> true
20101023 00:07:50< eleazzaar> i'm not sure it would work well with hills, but should be NP with any flat
20101023 00:08:58< zookeeper> it seems ok if the art can be made to fit, i'd like to get some second opinions on it since there might be some corner cases i'm not thinking about
20101023 00:09:22< zookeeper> smallfoot units would have 2MP in snow forests instead of the current 3MP but that doesn't seem like a big deal
20101023 00:09:42< eleazzaar> some snow maps may have to be tweaked
20101023 00:09:56< zookeeper> the main thing i'm worried about is elves moving twice as fast in snow forest as in plain snow. might or might not be a problem.
20101023 00:10:16< zookeeper> anyways, i gotta go for a few minutes... ->
20101023 00:10:25< eleazzaar> np
20101023 00:11:42< eleazzaar> i'm gonna get supper
20101023 00:16:18< CIA-105> espreon * r47155 /trunk/changelog: Updated the changelog.
20101023 00:17:39< eleazzaar> actually i have a better idea--- i'd make a special semi-snowy flat and hill base that would automatically be used when a snowy forest was put over any flat or hill
20101023 00:21:44< Soliton> ilor: around now..
20101023 00:21:59< Soliton> for a bit.
20101023 00:23:03< CIA-105> shadowmaster * r47156 /trunk/data/gui/default/ (2 files in 2 dirs): 
20101023 00:23:03< CIA-105> Move titlescreen revnum label to the left edge and reduce its font size
20101023 00:23:03< CIA-105> The version number shouldn't be catching the attention of the reader.
20101023 00:24:15< CIA-105> shadowmaster * r47157 /trunk/data/gui/default/ (2 files in 2 dirs): Rename "title_creen_revision" label type to "title_screen_revision"
20101023 00:27:39< zookeeper> Soliton, any ideas what could be broken if all snowy forest types would movement-alias to forest only?
20101023 00:28:18< Soliton> not of the top of my head.
20101023 00:28:49< Soliton> i don't know much about the terrain system internals really.
20101023 00:29:46< zookeeper> well, i just meant balance-wise, or if it'd lead to some silly corner cases. currently they all alias to movement of worst of snow or forest
20101023 00:30:01< Soliton> ah
20101023 00:30:37< zookeeper> as i said a moment ago the biggest change i can think of would be that elves would only need 1MP in snowy forests as opposed to 2
20101023 00:31:11< Soliton> also humans would generally be faster in snowy forest than in snow.
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20101023 00:32:25< Soliton> it's not too odd though i'd say and snowy forest is not very relevant for most maps, i think.
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20101023 00:34:29< Soliton> dwarfs would also need 1MP on snowy forest vs 2MP on snow.
20101023 00:35:54< zookeeper> those all seem reasonable
20101023 00:36:24< Soliton> better movement for drakes and saurians as well.
20101023 00:36:53< Soliton> not so reasonable there IMO.
20101023 00:38:09< zookeeper> right, saurians seem to have 4MP on snow and 2 in forest
20101023 00:39:04< zookeeper> and yes, drakes would lose one of their two "slow" terrains
20101023 00:40:02< Soliton> what exactly are the issues with triple combo terrains?
20101023 00:40:08< Soliton> just too complicated?
20101023 00:40:25< Soliton> they seem pretty intuitive to me.
20101023 00:41:17< zookeeper> harder to have them represented by a nice and compact UI
20101023 00:42:00< Soliton> i'm not sure what that means.
20101023 00:42:34< zookeeper> something that'd show the component terrains and somehow visually identify which component is used for defense, which for movement, of which ones to pick the worst for movement, etc. probably it'd appear in the top right corner where the terrain info is now.
20101023 00:42:54< zookeeper> at least that's what i'm guessing eleazzaar would want... not sure ;)
20101023 00:44:09< Soliton> but no matter how many combos there are only one would be used for defense and one for movement?
20101023 00:44:54< eleazzaar> Soliton: that's not the info that IMHO is needed.
20101023 00:45:36< eleazzaar> the player needs to be able to see that "Sand Dunes" has the worst move of sand or hills
20101023 00:45:39< zookeeper> Soliton, i suppose the important info is how the aliasing works for a given terrain, not which component gets used as defense or movement for the unit that's selected
20101023 00:45:40< eleazzaar> for instance
20101023 00:46:11< eleazzaar> when he has a unit selected, he can find out exactly what the move/def will be in any situation
20101023 00:46:20< zookeeper> you might be looking at a terrain while having unit X selected and have it show completely different info than when you have unit Y selected, etc, which might be pretty confusing.
20101023 00:46:58< CIA-105> espreon * r47158 /trunk/data/campaigns/Under_the_Burning_Suns/utils/terrain.cfg: Turned some 'name' strings into 'editor_name' strings.
20101023 00:46:58< Soliton> isn't that the same for twin combos?
20101023 00:47:09< eleazzaar> but it is hard currently to generalize (given the info the UI currently provides) how a unit's move/def is determined on comboes
20101023 00:50:08< zookeeper> Soliton, yes, but displaying the info for twin combos need less space than for triple combos
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20101023 02:18:47< noy> Crab_: Where are you?
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20101023 11:43:59< CIA-105> zookeeper * r47159 /trunk/data/campaigns/Liberty/ (18 files in 3 dirs): Added kitty's new Liberty portraits, temporarily using the Thug portrait for Relnan.
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20101023 11:51:07< CIA-105> zookeeper * r47160 /branches/resources/campaigns/Liberty/ (7 files in 3 dirs): Added lossless versions of the Liberty story images.
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20101023 15:25:20< fendrin> zookeeper: Hello, do you want to wire the ruined desert castle to core or into utbs only?
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20101023 15:48:32< eleazzaar> fendrin: there are no keep images, so it's not ready for core
20101023 15:48:53< fendrin> I see.
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20101023 16:15:57< boucman> hey all
20101023 16:16:35< fendrin> hi boucman
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20101023 16:30:04< Ivanovic> hi
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20101023 16:42:00< CIA-105> eleazar * r47161 /trunk/data/core/help.cfg: updating terrain images used in help, fixing broken links etc.
20101023 17:01:22< zookeeper> fendrin, yes, to UtBS only
20101023 17:01:33< zookeeper> probably going to do it now...
20101023 17:02:35< zookeeper> hi, alink. is there a way to sync terrain anims (so for example to make the beach waves animate in sync, instead of each tile having their own timing) yet?
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20101023 17:04:18< alink> not yet, but the new random_start=no key that we discussed could allow this
20101023 17:04:59< alink> (when talking about your door stuff)
20101023 17:05:33< zookeeper> okay
20101023 17:05:40< zookeeper> any plans for adding that anytime soon? :P
20101023 17:06:17< alink> sadly, not much time for wesnoth time these days :-(
20101023 17:06:52< zookeeper> right, that's always rather sad
20101023 17:07:16< alink> that change is easy, but another bug (windmill glitch) make it not work right with some scrolling cases
20101023 17:12:52< Ivanovic> alink: when you sync your branch the next time it will take ages to updated (because of the recompressed images, more than 70MB to upload)
20101023 17:13:25< alink> Ivanovic: ok thanks for the warning
20101023 17:13:55< Ivanovic> this compression saved several MB which is nice since it will also reduce the final tarball size
20101023 17:14:11< alink> recompressed images ? new pngcrush thing ?
20101023 17:14:36< Ivanovic>    Total saving: 6379 KiB = 8% decrease
20101023 17:14:50< Ivanovic> yeah, applying optigen/pngcrush/whatever is used in the script
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20101023 18:11:41< CIA-105> zookeeper * r47162 /trunk/data/campaigns/Under_the_Burning_Suns/ (18 files in 3 dirs): Added doofus-01's ruined desert castle to UtBS and replaced the ruined human castle in the first scenario with it.
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20101023 19:08:11< CIA-105> alink * r47163 /trunk/src/ (builder.cpp builder.hpp): 
20101023 19:08:12< CIA-105> Allow to disable random animation shift in animated terrains.
20101023 19:08:12< CIA-105> Use a new key random_start (default = yes) in [terrain_graphics][image]
20101023 19:08:19< alink> zookeeper: ^ 
20101023 19:09:07< alink> turns out that disable it skip the windmill bug
20101023 19:09:07< zookeeper> cool, thanks \o/
20101023 19:09:32< alink> in fact, it may be a possible temporary fix for that bug
20101023 19:15:19< alink> yeah it fixes windmill-scrolling-bug, but it sync all of them so that's not good
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20101023 19:16:46< alink> btw the terrain macro stuff again prevent me to quickly test my new key anywhere (without writing a full rule)
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20101023 19:50:08< anonymissimus> Espreon: , eleazzaar : from wmllint I get lots of "editor_name should not have a translation mark" messages for the core terrain.cgf file
20101023 19:50:23< anonymissimus> you may check with esr before making those changes
20101023 19:51:27-!- Perusirkkaaja [Pertti@a88-114-132-86.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20101023 19:57:17< shadowmaster> anonymissimus: nah, that's wmllint that doesn't know of editor_name.
20101023 19:57:26< shadowmaster> I'll teach it a lesson it'll never forget.
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20101023 20:01:48< CIA-105> shadowmaster * r47164 /trunk/data/tools/wmllint: wmllint: *.editor_name is supposed to be translatable
20101023 20:02:29< CIA-105> alink * r47165 /trunk/src/animated.i: Fix bug #16529: Shifted windmill animation
20101023 20:02:42< zookeeper> alink, the best way to test it is to add it to NEW:WAVES in new-macros.cfg
20101023 20:03:05< zookeeper> that's the one used for the new animated sand<->water beach waves
20101023 20:03:45< alink> zookeeper: yeah I tested it in my own custom rule, but I also wanted to test it on windmill
20101023 20:03:56< alink> but, right, I should test waves too
20101023 20:04:39< zookeeper> alink, right, i haven't made any new macro(s) for animated overlays like the windmill yet
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20101023 20:07:35< CIA-105> alink * r47166 /trunk/changelog: update changelog
20101023 20:12:19< alink> zookeeper: it works fine, but looks a bit weird, as if the whole lake/river was pulsing
20101023 20:14:14< alink> OTOH, the old way looks like shivering
20101023 20:16:48< alink> when all is in sync, maybe each waves direction could "hit" at different times? (by shifting frames in the anim)
20101023 20:17:36< alink> so the water would move from one side to the other, instead of a global up and down (of water level)
20101023 20:21:11< alink> alternatively, I just tested a "reduced random shift", so all the waves hit around the same time, but it looks less artificial
20101023 20:21:56< alink> seem to be better, but depends if the goal was to adjust images between hexes
20101023 20:24:20< eleazzaar> zookeeper: alink it might be good to have a rule that skips waves for 1 hex bodies of water
20101023 20:25:05< alink> eleazzaar: including rivers ? (1 hex thick line)
20101023 20:25:47< eleazzaar> i meant land on all 6 sides type single hex
20101023 20:26:18< alink> that specific case seems rare enough to be ignored
20101023 20:26:47< eleazzaar> i don't think it's that rare
20101023 20:26:53< eleazzaar> it's a 1 hex pond
20101023 20:27:14< alink> do we use wave for all water type ?
20101023 20:27:24< eleazzaar> all water against sand
20101023 20:27:34< eleazzaar> swamp not included
20101023 20:28:52< eleazzaar> skipping waves on 1 hex *wide* might also be good, but that sounds more complicated -- i'm not sure about all the edge cases
20101023 20:29:44< alink> yeah, sounds complicated
20101023 20:30:25< alink> but 2 hexes pond will still have waves
20101023 20:30:43< eleazzaar> i know
20101023 20:31:20< alink> unless we disable waves for ford or shallow water. Or make smaller waves there ?
20101023 20:32:53< eleazzaar> maybe for ford.. but the results of only having waves for shallow would be weird
20101023 20:33:04< eleazzaar> i mean only for deep
20101023 20:33:27< eleazzaar> imagine a river mostly shallow, with some deep parts
20101023 20:33:29< alink> zookeeper: do I commit the random_start=yes in NEW:WAVES ? 
20101023 20:34:10< alink> eleazzaar: indeed, fully disable waves only there will looks weird, but smaller waves could be ok
20101023 20:35:02< eleazzaar> the main problem is my animation isn't great
20101023 20:35:15< eleazzaar> and waves are not easy to animate
20101023 20:35:19< alink> zookeeper: *random_start=no
20101023 20:35:23-!- janebot is now known as edgebot
20101023 20:35:51< eleazzaar> i don't think no random is gonna help, but no harm in testing
20101023 20:36:19-!- edgebot is now known as janebot
20101023 20:36:46< alink> Ok, I'll commit it, esp. since I believe it's not a perfect idea
20101023 20:37:04< alink> (I prefer my "reduced random", but code is not ready yet)
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20101023 20:38:19< eleazzaar> different waves for deep and shallow would probably be nice -- i just don't want to make them
20101023 20:38:26< eleazzaar> i'll be around later
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20101023 20:38:58< CIA-105> alink * r47167 /trunk/data/core/terrain-graphics/new-macros.cfg: Test synchronization of waves animation.
20101023 20:39:09< alink> eleazzaar: maybe just use the first frames ? (when the wave don't go far yet)
20101023 20:39:52< alink> zookeeper: ^ committed, so this also show how to use random_start
20101023 20:40:04< eleazzaar> there's only 6 frames, taking some out would make it rather jerky
20101023 20:41:14< alink> maybe create intermediate frame just by copy-pasting ? (to simulate wave's move)
20101023 20:41:52< alink> but still looks like a lot of work :-/
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20101023 20:46:09< alink> if you can compile, here is how reduced random looks : http://wesnoth.pastebin.com/Vg9p2S8X    (tweak the 200ms value)
20101023 20:46:32< alink> (value should obviously be defined in the terrain rule)
20101023 20:46:40< alink> anyway, afk
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20101023 20:51:34< CIA-105> espreon * r47168 /trunk/data/campaigns/Liberty/images/portraits/ (baldras.png dommel.png harper.png helicrom.png maddock.png): Ran umcpropfix.
20101023 20:52:00< CIA-105> espreon * r47169 /trunk/data/campaigns/Under_the_Burning_Suns/ (16 files in 2 dirs): Ran umcpropfix.
20101023 20:52:20-!- Elvish_Pillager [~eli@dhip-164.foss.residences.colby.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
20101023 20:53:28< Espreon> Damn it, that revision included something unrelated.
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20101023 21:06:22< shadowmaster> Ivanovic: have there been added new translators to any team recently? have they specified their forum account when giving their info for the mainline credits?
20101023 21:06:56< shadowmaster> I somehow suspect the Translators group needs more love (either that, or there need to be more translators with forum accounts, or more translators in general)
20101023 21:11:56< CIA-105> espreon * r47170 /trunk/data/campaigns/Under_the_Burning_Suns/utils/terrain.cfg: Changed the ruined desert castle's editor_name string to 'Ruined Desert Castle'.
20101023 21:23:12-!- alink [~alink@wesnoth/developer/alink] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20101023 21:31:48< Gambit> anonymissimus: re: http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?p=462471#p462471
20101023 21:31:52< Ivanovic> shadowmaster: feel free to send a mail to wesnoth-i18n at gna to make them ask you for their accounts being marked
20101023 21:31:57< Gambit> Does that mean first_time_only defaults to no in 1.9.2?
20101023 21:32:30< Gambit> Err there is no 1.9.2... trunk?
20101023 21:33:39< zookeeper> Gambit, no...
20101023 21:33:57< zookeeper> he meant you just don't need it for that piece of code
20101023 21:36:14< Gambit> ah because of [filter_condition]? 
20101023 21:36:20< Gambit> That looks like a neat tag.
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20101023 21:37:54< zookeeper> Gambit, yes, it's really neat
20101023 21:52:23< CIA-105> espreon * r47171 /trunk/ (55 files in 3 dirs): Corrected the capitalization in LoW's abbreviation string.
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20101023 22:24:37< ilor> noy: I should be around for most of tomorrow, that is between around 7 to 15 UTC and maybe later
20101023 22:24:50< ilor> noy: I'm around now, too, if you're there
20101023 22:25:47< noy> I'm at GSOC right now... but Boucman is here and can give me feedback
20101023 22:26:10< noy> basically I've written a chapter, and I discuss the issues surroinding the MP lobby
20101023 22:26:14< noy> as an example
20101023 22:27:46-!- boucman [~boucman@wesnoth/developer/boucman] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20101023 22:27:54< ilor> noy: so, a chapter about the need of proper end user testing and feedback?
20101023 22:29:00< noy> I'd like some feedback from you
20101023 22:30:06< Ivanovic> ilor: don't expect noy to react too much at all...
20101023 22:30:12< Ivanovic> noy: how do you like it so far?
20101023 22:30:22< boucman> yeah, he currently is in a conference room
20101023 22:30:23< ilor> well. can't say I feel good about the whole thing
20101023 22:30:26< noy> no... thats not what it is about at all
20101023 22:30:26< noy> because I don't think thats the only issue
20101023 22:30:26< noy> and its not hte focus
20101023 22:30:27< noy> The focus was how to start up a open source project
20101023 22:30:27< noy> and the decisions made by wesnoth
20101023 22:30:28< noy> basically a part talks about the challenges 
20101023 22:30:32< ilor> Ivanovic: why so? ;)
20101023 22:30:52< Ivanovic> ilor: because he is currently in mountain view on the gsoc mentor summit
20101023 22:30:56< ilor> Ivanovic: ah
20101023 22:31:19< ilor> noy: I'm a bit disappointed in general by how things turned out
20101023 22:31:20< Ivanovic> they have to do "important stuff" (like, you know, eating chips and chocolate, drinking coke, eating "other stuff", playing pool, ...)
20101023 22:31:43-!- MeccaGod [~majs@h14n4fls31o279.telia.com] has quit []
20101023 22:31:48< ilor> I'm glad some of the tag-along stuff, like server RNG, were separate enough to stay in
20101023 22:32:58< noy> boucman: you're the one who should be paying attention.
20101023 22:32:58< noy> not me.
20101023 22:32:58< noy> Ivanovic: I've realized I should really feel grateful for how lucky we are with our GSOC outcome
20101023 22:32:59< noy> because boucman and I just heard some admin horror stories
20101023 22:33:17< Ivanovic> boucman: so when did you arrive at the wild palms yesterday?
20101023 22:33:19< ilor> noy: anything specific you'd like me to comment on? or I can go on in general
20101023 22:33:28< Ivanovic> noy: yes, it worked really okay for us in general
20101023 22:33:32< boucman> half past ten IIRC
20101023 22:33:35< Ivanovic> only the "common problems"
20101023 22:33:38< noy> maybe when I leave
20101023 22:34:17< Ivanovic> noy: looking forward to hearing more about those admin horror storries once you got some more time (eg after the conf)
20101023 22:34:55< ilor> noy: I hope you'll share those with me too ;)
20101023 22:37:26< noy> Ivanovic: basically a project removing three mentors because they were useless
20101023 22:37:31< noy> and others asking how can they get more applicants, because they don't have enough... not even bad ones. 
20101023 22:37:31< noy> I think our mouths hit the floor when we heard that... and we told them our ratio of applicants to slots
20101023 22:37:32< noy> boucman: stop going through commits... you need to pay attention to this. 
20101023 22:37:43< boucman> hehe
20101023 22:38:27< boucman> Ivanovic: an admin explaining that he ended up mentoring half the project's students
20101023 22:38:43< Ivanovic> outsch, those sound really bad
20101023 22:41:05< noy> That guy really didn't like me. 
20101023 22:41:05< noy> I'm telling you.
20101023 22:41:05< noy> And all I did was ask a question too!
20101023 22:41:06< noy> boucman - like the fact that I think three people around me are compiling something.
20101023 22:41:52< boucman> i'm not compiling
20101023 22:42:24< boucman> i'm taking advantage of the fact that google network works better than the hotel network to update my checkout
20101023 22:42:29< Ivanovic> noy: what do you expect, those are geeks!
20101023 22:42:55< Ivanovic> i assume that crab_ is alright, too?
20101023 22:43:11< boucman> yes, he's not in this particular session, though
20101023 22:43:19< boucman> we'll probably see him at the next one
20101023 22:43:24< boucman> about FOSS gaming
20101023 22:43:45< Ivanovic> :)
20101023 22:45:07-!- kitty_ [~kathrinpo@e180200047.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20101023 22:45:13< Ivanovic> and don't forget to eat some pizza for all the other wesnoth folks that ain't around!
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20101023 22:50:44< noy> I'm actually not going to the foss gaming one... shocking. We're hosting one tomorrow on managing non-programming contributions.
20101023 22:54:52< noy> boucman: I'd like to use what that guy just said to my article 
20101023 22:55:04< noy> like about developer vs user models
20101023 22:56:29< boucman> sure, but the thing to consider is the user is usually also very bad at describing the user model
20101023 22:56:29< boucman> I agree he should be the target, but I don't think he's a good designer
20101023 22:57:06< boucman> and no, my remark is not obvious
20101023 22:59:27< noy> boucman: it was more the issue that developers have a hard time with understanding useability
20101023 22:59:45< noy> or predicting it
20101023 22:59:51< boucman> indeed, there is a reason it's a totally different profession
20101023 23:00:32< boucman> and the UI measures allow to measure how good we are wrt to the user's mental model, but there is little clue about how to find out/design to follow that model
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20101023 23:05:52 * boucman is at the chocolate session :P
20101023 23:10:32< noy> boucman: I wish I could move our foss gaming session one down
20101023 23:10:54 * noy is at Free Software Governance. 
20101023 23:10:55< boucman> i'm at an app store session now
20101023 23:11:12< noy> boucman: is that what its about?
20101023 23:11:17< noy> boucman: should I be there?
20101023 23:12:05< boucman> I don't think so at this point
20101023 23:13:33< noy> boucman: it just seems more interesting. 
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20101023 23:24:10< noy> boucman: how goes it?
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20101023 23:44:32< Ivanovic> boucman: is the session about how chocolate can help open source software development?
20101023 23:44:40< Ivanovic> that one was really tasty two years ago...
20101023 23:46:45< noy> Ivanovic: http://gsoc-wiki.osuosl.org/images/4/4d/Mentor_Summit_2010_Schedule_Saturday_1.jpg
20101023 23:46:53< noy> bottom left
20101023 23:47:28< Ivanovic> uhm, this sessions sounds like it could easily get, uhm, nasty
20101023 23:49:57< Ivanovic> and no, i don't want to know how you put google code into carols
20101023 23:50:22< Ivanovic> and yeah, the session from 2 to 3 in tunis sounds like what we visited two years ago, too
20101023 23:50:30< Ivanovic> was a tasty and interesting session
20101023 23:50:49< Ivanovic> though it was in some by far smaller room...
20101023 23:51:19< Ivanovic> (only some 10 people in there and *lots* of chocolate for each and everyone of them...)
--- Log closed Sun Oct 24 00:00:05 2010