--- Log opened Tue Nov 23 00:00:48 2010
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20101123 00:14:14< Lancer2013_DDT> Crab_: Any idea what the Beserker Unit is called by chance? Having a tough time figuring out the proper name.
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20101123 00:20:46< Grimling> Crab_: do I have to send my current code to you?
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20101123 00:28:23< Lancer2013_DDT> Crab:  Any idea what the Beserker Unit is called by chance? Having a tough time figuring out the proper name.
20101123 00:29:08< ancestral> "id": "Dwarvish Berserker"
20101123 00:29:51< Lancer2013_DDT> "id" the function name? trying to use it in my if loop
20101123 00:30:15< ancestral> name is also the same, sorry
20101123 00:30:32< ancestral> Includes the space
20101123 00:31:47< Lancer2013_DDT> thank you -- will give it a shot
20101123 00:38:10< Grimling> Crab_: I've sent the code as a PM, I need to go now
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20101123 01:20:50< Aurora_> When I am converting ai's to new configuration there is a list on the wiki that appears to be incomplete, because one of the examples on the wiki shows agression but the list at the bottom does not show aggression, so do I convert it or not?
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20101123 01:31:19< shadowmaster> Aurora_: what's the page?
20101123 01:35:02< Aurora_> http://wiki.wesnoth.org/GCI/Port_AI_WML_configuration_to_new_style_syntax
20101123 01:38:21< shadowmaster> yes, convert it.
20101123 01:38:38< shadowmaster> the aggression aspect worked for me with the new syntax in a custom scenario for an add-on
20101123 01:39:00< shadowmaster> maybe Crab_ knows if there's anything else missing there though
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20101123 01:43:06< Aurora_> I asked him
20101123 01:43:29< Aurora_> so I should do it for everything, like say attack_depth?
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20101123 01:45:11< shadowmaster> not sure if everything works, but attack_depth does too
20101123 01:45:24 * shadowmaster is not completely familiarized with the new AI syntax
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20101123 01:52:39< Aurora_> Okay, then maybe you can help me with converting this {ATTACK_DEPTH 4 5 6}
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20101123 01:53:28< Aurora_> change it to {AI_SIMPLE_ALWAYS_ASPECT attack_depth "4, 5, 6"}
20101123 01:53:29< Aurora_> ?
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20101123 02:28:46< Mark_Fennema> hello, does anyone here know anything about the wml ai codes? specifically for goal tags?
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20101123 02:36:03< ancestral> Mark_Fennema: I think Crab_ might be a good person to talk to? Unfortunately he just left right before you logged in
20101123 02:36:16< Mark_Fennema> just my luck...
20101123 02:36:21< Mark_Fennema> lol
20101123 02:36:22< ancestral> Yeah like 3 minutes
20101123 02:36:24< Mark_Fennema> oh well.... I think I have it
20101123 02:36:37< ancestral> You could try posting something on the forum
20101123 02:36:54< Mark_Fennema> if it doesn't week I'll try that probably
20101123 02:37:06< Mark_Fennema> I'm with google code.in so there's also a person I'm supposed to be able to email for help
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20101123 02:40:40< nloewen> Hi, I accepted one of the wesnoth tasks from the Google GCI. I am working on porting the AI WML configuration, and was wondering what to do with the "id" parameter for [target], as I can't find any information about it in either the porting information or the AI customization wiki.
20101123 02:44:52< Gambit> nloewen: [target] seems to be a standard unit filter, so id is probably telling the AI to target a unit with that specific id
20101123 02:45:02< Gambit> i.e. target any unit whose id is "Konrad"
20101123 02:45:52< nloewen> so in the new syntax, would that go under [goal]/[criteria]?
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20101123 02:46:47< Gambit> criteria
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20101123 02:47:15< Gambit> The unit must match the criteria of having that specific ID in order to match the [goal]
20101123 02:47:27< nloewen> ok. thats what I thought. Thanks.
20101123 02:52:22< Mark_Fennema> hmm.... i had it in the goal section and it seemed to work...
20101123 02:52:36< Mark_Fennema> how obvoius will it be if I make a mistake with the AI code, will it throw an error or will they just behave wrong?
20101123 02:52:43< nloewen> I was looking at the irc log, and it looks like another GCI student was told to convert the aggression tags. If I have a tag that looks like this, {QUANTITY aggression 0.55 0.75 0.85}, what should I do with QUANTITY.
20101123 02:54:12< nloewen> Mark_Fennema: are you testing your changes?
20101123 02:54:56< Mark_Fennema> nloewen first off, was that a whisper or did you just have my name in it? I haven't used IRC in quite a while, I tested and the campaign seemed to run fine, just not sure if hte AI was acting properly or not
20101123 02:55:10< Mark_Fennema> nloewen it seemed to be though
20101123 02:55:44< nloewen> you can put peoples name in it so that it flashes and tells them theres a message for them.
20101123 02:55:49< Mark_Fennema> oh, ok
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20101123 02:58:07< Mark_Fennema> ok, i know someone was asking earlier, it doesn't seem to matter if ID is inside or outside of the criteria tag...
20101123 02:58:11< Mark_Fennema> its worked the same both ways
20101123 02:59:59< Mark_Fennema> ok... one mroe question, if I edit a file in the campaign (the .cfg file), do I have to do anything special to test it or do I just restart the game and start the campaign
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20101123 03:03:29< nloewen> if your working from source, you may want to recompile just to be sure. otherwise I don't think it matters.
20101123 03:04:05< nloewen> anyway. does anyone have any ideas about QUANTITY in {QUANTITY aggression 0.55 0.75 0.85}.
20101123 03:07:29< Gambit> Mark_Fennema: They will just behave incorrectly
20101123 03:07:36< Gambit> (so it won't be very obvious)
20101123 03:07:48< Mark_Fennema> hmm.... just my luck :P time to see how they behaved int he old one
20101123 03:08:36< Gambit> I think :debug provides more info about what the AI is thinking, but I haven't the foggiest as to how to read it.
20101123 03:08:55< Gambit> Also just restarting the game is fine for WML
20101123 03:09:11< Gambit> I think you can hit f5 at the main menu if mordante or someone put that feature back in.
20101123 03:09:15< Gambit> That will refresh the cache.
20101123 03:13:11< Gambit> Ayep that feature is back.
20101123 03:13:37< Gambit> So you can leave the game open at the main menu, make a change in the WML, and then hit F5 in the game.
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20101123 03:17:51< Espreon> Mark_Fennema: Wait, why are we using QUANTITY? What are you trying to convert?
20101123 03:17:58< Mark_Fennema> tnaks for the help, looks like its working fine,t he AI is very similar at least, almost played the exact same moves twice
20101123 03:18:08< Mark_Fennema> and i'm not using quanity, thats someone else
20101123 03:18:14< Mark_Fennema> nloewen i think
20101123 03:18:21< Espreon> OK.
20101123 03:18:31< Espreon> Oh, sorry.
20101123 03:18:37< Espreon> I got drowned in all the text.
20101123 03:18:39< Mark_Fennema> no problem
20101123 03:18:55< Espreon> nloewen: Why are we using QUANTITY? What are you trying to convert?
20101123 03:19:07< nloewen> {QUANTITY aggression 0.55 0.75 0.85}
20101123 03:19:13< nloewen> I'm not sure why its there.
20101123 03:19:48< nloewen> can I safely remove it?
20101123 03:20:05< Espreon> Hold on...
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20101123 03:20:37< Espreon> nloewen: Where did you find it?
20101123 03:21:29< nloewen> http://svn.gna.org/viewcvs/wesnoth/trunk/data/campaigns/The_South_Guard/scenarios/ i've found it in 2-4 so far.
20101123 03:21:50< nloewen> in the [ai] blocks.
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20101123 03:24:43< Espreon> nloewen: Convert that to {AI_SIMPLE_ALWAYS_ASPECT aggreession {ON_DIFFICULTY 0.55 0.75 0.85} }
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20101123 03:25:21< nloewen> ok. can I apply that to the other tags that use QUANTITY?
20101123 03:26:19< Espreon> Yeah, you can apply that to other old AI keys that use QUANTITY.
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20101123 03:26:52< nloewen> ok. thanks.
20101123 03:27:00< Espreon> No prob.
20101123 03:29:13< nloewen> Esperon: did you mean to have the two close brackets?
20101123 03:29:22< nloewen> oh wait, I see it now.
20101123 03:29:31< nloewen> sorry about that.
20101123 03:30:28< Espreon> OK.
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20101123 03:31:35< nloewen> I have {QUANTITY recruitment_pattern "fighter" /n "fighter,fighter,scout,fighter" /n "fighter,archer,fighter,archer,scout"} (/n being a new line). how does this work with {ON_DIFFICUTLY. Do I need to add it for each line? or put it in once with each section in the brackets.
20101123 03:31:59< Espreon> nloewen: Which scenario?
20101123 03:32:04< nloewen> 02
20101123 03:32:19< nloewen> the south guard
20101123 03:33:01< Espreon> You don't have to have the newlines; they're just there for readability.
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20101123 03:34:25< nloewen> yea, do I put them all into the {DIFFICULTY bracket?
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20101123 03:35:42< Espreon> Yeah, that part could be like: {ON_DIFFICULTY (fighter,fighter,scout,fighter) (fighter,archer,fighter,fighter) (scout,fighter,archer,fighter,fighter)}
20101123 03:36:21< nloewen> with brackets? the example here (http://wiki.wesnoth.org/GCI/Port_AI_WML_configuration_to_new_style_syntax) uses quotes.
20101123 03:37:24< Espreon> It matters not.
20101123 03:37:45< Espreon> nloewen: Wait, which brackets are you talking about?
20101123 03:37:54< Espreon> The ones around ON_DIFFICULTY?
20101123 03:37:58< Espreon> If so, those are needed.
20101123 03:38:16< nloewen> round ones around each group (fighter,fighet,scout,figter)
20101123 03:38:27< Espreon> Oh, in that case, it matters not.
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20101123 03:39:01< nloewen> brackets it is.
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20101123 08:41:59< Espreon> Sigh...
20101123 08:42:19< Espreon> I hate QMVs and vaccines for them...
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20101123 10:21:11< Ivanovic> moin
20101123 10:23:52< Espreon> Ivanovic: what exactly did you mean at 22:58/
20101123 10:23:56< Espreon> *?
20101123 10:25:11< Ivanovic> Espreon: that you have to approve/accept the claim
20101123 10:26:26< Espreon> Ah, yeah...
20101123 10:26:40< Espreon> I'll give things twelve hours.
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20101123 10:30:34< Ivanovic> you have to accept the claim before the student can be sure that he got the task
20101123 10:30:54< Ivanovic> after you accept it, the clock starts ticking
20101123 10:31:21< Espreon> Jeß, of course.
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20101123 11:24:45< Crab_> hi
20101123 11:24:58< Ivanovic> hi Crab_
20101123 11:25:47< Crab_> we've got at least one person intending to do the 'port ai config to new style' in the right way (via patch to wmllint), great.
20101123 11:26:08< Ivanovic> yeah
20101123 11:30:38< Crab_> Aurora_: everything should be converted. if it's unclear how to convert something, ask. yes, aggression is converted exactly as caution is, omitting it in the wiki list was a small typo.
20101123 11:32:53< Crab_> Aurora_: for attack_depth, you can convert it in the same way or, in the specific case '3 for easy, 4 for medium, 5 for hard', use {AI_SCALE_ATTACK_DEPTH_BY_DIFFICULTY} macro
20101123 11:34:26< Ivanovic> Crab_: i am not sure if the GCI students already know about the irc weblogs
20101123 11:34:38< Crab_> Ivanovic: I'll add the same info to the wiki, as well
20101123 11:34:45< Ivanovic> Crab_: so don't forget to pioint Aurora_ to these
20101123 11:35:53< Crab_> Ivanovic: and there's also a side effect - everyone present in the channel sees the answers, too; so, when something is asked again when I'm not around, there's a slight chance it'll be answered :)
20101123 11:36:07< Ivanovic> :)
20101123 11:36:25< Crab_> Mark_Fennema: ai goal syntax is at http://wiki.wesnoth.org/Customizing_AI_in_Wesnoth_1.8#AI_goals_.28_via_.5Bgoal.5D_tags_.29
20101123 11:38:05< Crab_> Ivanovic: and, in the logs, I see things like 'I was looking at the irc log, and it looks ....'  - so, at least some of the GCI students do know about the logs :)
20101123 11:38:15< Ivanovic> ah, good
20101123 11:39:57< Ivanovic> (you know, reading the complete logs is a little too much for me to do daily, just too much stuff written to read everything, so i skip over stuff and just make sure to read my highlights)
20101123 11:42:40< Crab_> Mark_Fennema, nloewen: to test the changes, you can use :inspect - it allows you to see the ai configuration and you can compare the results of your changes vs the results of the 'upgrade' procedure written in c++ - by using :inspect two times, with and without your changes
20101123 11:42:42< Crab_> Also, you're welcome to show incomplete results for review (link to these in google's task tracker)
20101123 11:47:57< Crab_> and thanks to everyone here for helping the GCI students :)
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20101123 14:03:00< Crab_> Espreon: you need to accept the student's claim to task or ask him questions -http://socghop.appspot.com/gci/task/show/google/gci2010/wesnoth/t129034030760
20101123 14:03:37< Crab_> (action - accept claim request, plus comment, or just comment if you don't want to accept just yet)
20101123 14:04:13< Crab_> student can't be sure that he's allowed to work till you accept the claim (and other students can't claim this task...)
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20101123 16:06:01< K-9> hello
20101123 16:06:06-!- K-9 is now known as K900
20101123 16:06:21< K900> anyone?
20101123 16:06:44< K900> i'm a playtester, from code-in
20101123 16:06:51< AI0867> hi
20101123 16:07:01< K900> just have a question
20101123 16:07:15< K900> do i have to build wesnoth from git, or will 1.9.2 do?
20101123 16:07:39< AI0867> let's see if anything has changed recently
20101123 16:08:06< AI0867> K900: which campaign will you be testing?
20101123 16:08:31< K900> sceptre of fire
20101123 16:09:21< AI0867> that hasn't been changed since 1.9.2
20101123 16:09:33< AI0867> so you should be okay without svn HEAD
20101123 16:09:44< K900> ok, nice
20101123 16:09:47< K900> downloading now
20101123 16:10:10< K900> i'll try to do a live log of what i found
20101123 16:11:33< K900> here: http://juick.com/K900/?tag=wesnoth
20101123 16:11:55< K900> my blog
20101123 16:12:14< K900> in russian mostly, but i'll post *wesnoth in english too
20101123 16:12:14< AI0867> looks twitter-y
20101123 16:12:18< K900> yeah
20101123 16:12:36< K900> it's like twitter, but with comments, no message length limit and Jabber control
20101123 16:12:50< Crab_> K900: ok, nice. russian is not a problem, it's one of my native languages :)
20101123 16:13:29< K900> òîãäà ïðèâåò :)
20101123 16:13:43< Crab_> ïðèâåò )
20101123 16:13:50< K900> fffuuuuuuu~
20101123 16:13:52< AI0867> which encoding is that?
20101123 16:13:55< AI0867> it's not UTF-8
20101123 16:13:58< K900> win-1251 likely
20101123 16:14:05< K900> smuxi sux :(
20101123 16:14:39< K900> back to xchat, though it probably sux even more
20101123 16:15:07-!- happygrue [~George@wesnoth/developer/wintermute] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20101123 16:17:31< K900> relog now
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20101123 16:19:16< K900> ok
20101123 16:19:17< K900> back now
20101123 16:19:22< K900> по-русски пишет?
20101123 16:19:57< AI0867> readable!
20101123 16:20:15< K900> nice
20101123 16:20:20< AI0867> second word being 'russki'
20101123 16:20:24< K900> yep
20101123 16:20:34< K900> you speak russian?
20101123 16:20:37< AI0867> nah
20101123 16:21:02< K900> ok, installing now
20101123 16:21:10< AI0867> but I learned the alphabet the summer before last
20101123 16:21:13< AI0867> visit to bulgaria
20101123 16:21:15< K900> will finish my studies and start playing
20101123 16:21:33< K900> btw, bulgarian is soooo far from russian (but for the alphabet) :)
20101123 16:21:48< AI0867> even if you don't know the language, being able to pronounce what you're looking at really helps
20101123 16:22:12< AI0867> even if they aren't english loanwords
20101123 16:22:47< K900> well if you speak any language like russian, bulgarian, polish etc. you can understand others
20101123 16:23:35< AI0867> yeah, there are some russian words I learned knew in latin form that were pretty obvious in bulgarian cyrillic
20101123 16:24:21-!- K900 [~K900@95-30-136-84.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: Ухожу я от вас (xchat 2.4.5 или старше)]
20101123 16:24:27< AI0867> then again, they were also obvious in croatia and czechia
20101123 16:24:35-!- happygrue_ [~George@wesnoth/developer/wintermute] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
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20101123 16:24:44< AI0867> but those are usually rendered in latin
20101123 16:33:07-!- K900 [~K900@95-30-136-84.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20101123 16:33:23< K900> shit
20101123 16:35:12-!- GNUtoo|laptop [~gnutoo@50.118-226-89.dsl.completel.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20101123 16:41:42< K900> fffuuuu~
20101123 16:41:47< K900> my IP is banned on gna
20101123 16:42:26< K900> i can't register :(
20101123 16:44:34< AI0867> I think esr can help you there
20101123 16:44:48< AI0867> he's one of their administrators
20101123 16:44:57< AI0867> esr: ^
20101123 16:44:58< K900> is he here at all?
20101123 16:45:16< AI0867> wesbot: seen esr
20101123 16:45:17< wesbot> AI0867: Queried user last spoke 3d 18h ago.  esr is currently here and on the channel #wesnoth-umc-dev.
20101123 16:45:38< AI0867> the question is how long it will take for him to respond
20101123 16:46:37< esr> I'm here, but I don't know how banning and unbanning works.
20101123 16:46:54< K900> it's banned by spamhaus, not you
20101123 16:47:07< AI0867> ugh
20101123 16:48:27-!- Grimling [~Grimling@91.181.21.27] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20101123 16:49:22< K900> i have a dynamic ip
20101123 16:49:33< K900> will reboot my router now
20101123 16:50:12< AI0867> it's probably the whole range =/
20101123 16:50:24< K900> shouldn't be
20101123 16:50:38< K900> it's banned for spam
20101123 16:52:19-!- K900_ [~K900@95-30-72-176.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20101123 16:52:56< K900_> and now i'
20101123 16:52:59< K900_> *i'm in
20101123 16:54:14< xenocratus01> uhm, how should i convert AI lines like "#ifndef HARD"?
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20101123 16:57:38< Grimling> Crab_: to submit code, do I just need to post it as a comment?
20101123 16:59:25< Crab_> Grimling: for now it might be enough, since it's only one file. for later, we might figure out a better way to do it.
20101123 16:59:52< Grimling> Crab_: okay, thanks for your feedback, I'm changing the code
20101123 17:00:11< Crab_> Grimling: ok
20101123 17:00:26< K900_> ok, that's what i got
20101123 17:00:29< K900_> http://wiki.wesnoth.org/GCI/Playtesting/The_Sceptre_of_Fire/Normal
20101123 17:01:18< xenocratus01> Crab_: how do "#ifndef HARD"-like lines convert?
20101123 17:01:56< K900_> will go study now
20101123 17:01:58< K900_> bye
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20101123 17:02:25< Grimling> Crab_: for the {, do I need to write it on a new line to make it consistent with the methods? or do I just need to add that space before
20101123 17:03:03< Crab_> well, usually in wesnoth's code, in 'if/while/for' { is on the same line
20101123 17:03:09< Crab_> and in methods, it is on the new line
20101123 17:03:19< Crab_> but, the main idea 'use same style in the file'
20101123 17:03:40< Grimling> okay
20101123 17:08:19< xenocratus01> Crab_: "{NO_SCOUTS}" remains the same after conversion?
20101123 17:09:13< Crab_> xenocratus01: changes to {AI_NO_SCOUTS}
20101123 17:09:29< xenocratus01> Crab_: ok, thanks
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20101123 17:10:50< Grimling> Crab_: do you need the whole file? or only the ai_choose_recruits() method?
20101123 17:11:11< Crab_> as you wish. it's hard to go wrong with whole file :)
20101123 17:11:21< Grimling> true
20101123 17:11:21< Crab_> e.g. I need your sorter, as well
20101123 17:11:58< xenocratus01> Crab_: and i suppose all lines like that one convert the same way (hence {HIGH_PRIORITY_TARGETS} -> {AI_HIGH_PRIORITY_TARGETS})
20101123 17:13:25< Crab_> xenocratus01: no, it's a campaign-specific macro. you need to see its expansion and change the macro, as well
20101123 17:14:50< Grimling> Crab_: submitted
20101123 17:15:50< Crab_> Grimling: thanks. there'll be new recruitment-related tasks, ping me tomorrow for them
20101123 17:16:07< Crab_> Grimling: the problem with current algorithm, that we need to solve in later tasks, is :
20101123 17:16:17< Crab_> it always picks 'best' unit according to current definition of best
20101123 17:16:23< Crab_> but, it is easy to counter
20101123 17:17:23< Crab_> so, it's better to recruit multiple different units
20101123 17:17:39< Grimling> Crab_: are there kind of categories for the types 'weakness'?
20101123 17:17:47< Crab_> current system handles it via 'categories', yes
20101123 17:17:54< Crab_> study what 'recruitment pattern' means
20101123 17:18:05< Crab_> in current system, each unit has a 'role'
20101123 17:18:14< Crab_> fighter, mixed fighter, scout, archer
20101123 17:18:27< Crab_> and, scenario creator specifes a pattern like "scout, scout, archer"
20101123 17:18:36< Crab_> and the ai randomly recruits 2/3 of scouts, 1/3 archers
20101123 17:21:08< Crab_> thus giving us some variety
20101123 17:22:45< Crab_> you can reimplement this system, or do some research and create a new system
20101123 17:22:55< Crab_> (you're welcome to propose ideas)
20101123 17:24:05< Crab_> If you do it via recruitment pattern, then your algorithm has to recruit 'best' (as it does now) but recruit only from the category user specified (selecting it randomly for each unit)
20101123 17:24:10-!- iwontbecreative [~thibault@89.181.105.210] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20101123 17:24:28< Grimling> now, the recruitment is with 1 quality parameter, why not implementing a parameter for each type of unit?
20101123 17:24:29< Crab_> e.g., for "scout, scout, archer" , recrut best of scouts 2/3 of the time, best of archers 1/3 of the time
20101123 17:24:45< Crab_> yes, adding additional parameters can be ok, too
20101123 17:24:53< Crab_> but note that those parameters must not refer to unit names
20101123 17:25:04< Crab_> they must be generic enough to be used with any units
20101123 17:25:42< Crab_> or, you can do it the right way - calculate 'group' ratings, not single unit ratings
20101123 17:26:06< Crab_> e.g., "what would be the best group of units to recruit if we have A,B,C on map and enemy has D,E,F on map an he can recruit X,Y and he has Z gold" ?
20101123 17:26:21< Crab_> where for each pair of units, we know how good each unit is against one another
20101123 17:26:26< Crab_> think about it, feel free to PM ideas
20101123 17:27:33< Crab_> tomorrow, I'll add some recruitment related tasks to improve current algorithm
20101123 17:28:18< Crab_> Grimling: and, I've just marked that task as completed, congratulations on earning your tshirt/certificate :)
20101123 17:28:35< Grimling> thanks :)
20101123 17:28:53< Crab_> Grimling: I'll modify your code to be used within wesnoth as an 'alternate' recruitment procedure.
20101123 17:29:25< Crab_> Grimling: but, to be used instead of current system by default, it needs improvement. I'll post some improvement ideas tomorrow, but feel free to propose them, too
20101123 17:30:19< Grimling> I'll think about it
20101123 17:30:55< Crab_> Grimling: you might want to study current recruitment algorithm to see what it does with recruitment pattern
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20101123 17:31:08< Crab_> http://svn.gna.org/viewcvs/wesnoth/trunk/src/ai/testing/ca.cpp?view=markup ,  void recruitment_phase::execute()
20101123 17:31:20< Grimling> yes, that's a good idea
20101123 17:31:40< Crab_> the main problem that we want to solve is that your algorithm always recruits the same 'best' unit, unless limited
20101123 17:31:53< Crab_> but, if we have many 'same' units in the field, opponent can counter-recruit
20101123 17:32:17< Crab_> and it's not that fun to play against a horde of 'same' units, it's more fun to play against mixed army
20101123 17:32:37< Crab_> (leaving now, will be back tomorrow)
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20101123 17:39:11< Grimling> Crab_: ok
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20101123 17:42:19< Grimling> for the GCI i need to give some information about my education, but in Belgium, we use other grades, what do I need to fill in (Im in the 4th year of high school)
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20101123 17:44:46< iwontbecreative> Well in belgium it's 4/8 If i remember well
20101123 17:44:59< iwontbecreative> No
20101123 17:45:15< iwontbecreative> 6/6 sorry. 4/8 is in Portugal
20101123 17:45:42< Grimling> and where do the numbers stand for?
20101123 17:46:39< iwontbecreative> Primary/Secondary
20101123 17:46:56< iwontbecreative> But I don't know what's the system used by google :/
20101123 17:47:03< iwontbecreative> If it's uk: then it's http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_England#Primary_and_secondary_education
20101123 17:47:41< iwontbecreative> And for US (I guess it's that.) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_United_States#School_grades
20101123 17:47:54< Grimling> iwontbecreative: thanks
20101123 17:48:13< iwontbecreative> Np, where do you live in Belgium ?
20101123 17:48:23< iwontbecreative> Cause I'm belgian aswell
20101123 17:48:31< iwontbecreative>  But I live in Portugal :)
20101123 17:49:06< Grimling> iwontbecreative: West-Flanders
20101123 17:49:17< iwontbecreative> Ah :P
20101123 17:49:18< Grimling> Do you speak dutch?
20101123 17:49:42< iwontbecreative> Probably
20101123 17:50:12< Grimling> :)
20101123 17:50:46< iwontbecreative> I mean, I didn't talk it for years :P
20101123 17:51:12< iwontbecreative>  But I learnt german, so it helps a bit.
20101123 17:51:59< Grimling> german :p we have now 1 hour at school, and it's rather difficult 
20101123 17:53:09< iwontbecreative> Yeah, very difficult for me aswell
20101123 17:53:20< iwontbecreative>  German and french are difficult languages
20101123 17:53:57< iwontbecreative> Another problem I have is that I have french/portuguese as mother language and that I learn latin/english/german/ at school
20101123 17:54:10< Grimling> wow, nice :)
20101123 17:54:50< iwontbecreative>  Yep, I guess it will probably be usefull somewhere in the future :D
20101123 17:55:17< iwontbecreative> from future import languages
20101123 17:56:18< iwontbecreative> print languages.known_languages()
20101123 17:56:19< iwontbecreative> :P
20101123 17:56:46< iwontbecreative> Bt, how are your improvements for AI recruit going ?
20101123 17:56:52< iwontbecreative> *Btw
20101123 17:58:00< Grimling> I just need to do some work for school but after that I'll study the AI code as said by Crab_
20101123 17:58:26< iwontbecreative> Nice, it's really an improvement that wesnoth needs
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20101123 17:58:50< iwontbecreative> Because of this problem, you can actually win by recruiting only gryphs and going for a leaderkill in water maps
20101123 17:59:35< Grimling> I'll do my best
20101123 18:00:14< iwontbecreative>  I'm sure it will be nice :D
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20101123 18:33:40< Guest5273> http://gna.org/bugs/?17131 — LOL, he'd be surprised.
20101123 18:33:53< Guest5273> Ugh... damn it.
20101123 18:34:10-!- Guest5273 is now known as Espreon
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20101123 18:34:45< iwontbecreative> Indeed, windows likes to reboot :)
20101123 18:35:53< iwontbecreative> Espreon: I have already made a fair amount of work on the GCI task, but the task is still as ClaimRequested, could you please validate/unvalidate it ?
20101123 18:38:31< Espreon> iwontbecreative: It has been done.
20101123 18:38:51< iwontbecreative> Oh thanks :)
20101123 18:39:09< Espreon> You are welcome.
20101123 18:39:27< iwontbecreative> Is it ok to use common wesnoth abbreviations in the file ?
20101123 18:39:54< iwontbecreative>  Like ToD, std ?
20101123 18:41:23< Espreon> iwontbecreative: Eh, just don't use them too much. Of course, use the full term once and then start using the abbreviation.
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20101123 19:21:59 * Soliton . o O (STDs in wesnoth?)
20101123 19:22:33< iwontbecreative> Std means standard era in multiplayer
20101123 19:22:58< iwontbecreative> Oh...
20101123 19:23:26< iwontbecreative>  Just googled it to see what it also means :P
20101123 19:24:09< iwontbecreative>  So no, I didn't meant that they were sexually transmitted diseases in wesnoth :P
20101123 19:36:44< Soliton> default is the standard era in wesnoth. :-)
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20101123 20:00:05< iwontbecreative> Maybe use this: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/Wesnoth_Acronyms_and_Slang
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20101123 20:00:59< iwontbecreative> Hmm sorry
20101123 20:01:13< iwontbecreative> Switched tabs
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20101123 20:51:56< fendrin> esr: ping
20101123 20:52:12< esr> fendrin: What's up?
20101123 20:52:32< fendrin> esr: Have you had a look into the wmllint assertion?
20101123 20:53:11< esr> fendrin: Not yet.  Is there a bug report or pastebin somewhere?  How do I rteproduce?
20101123 20:53:46< fendrin> esr: Just run "make lint". It is not reproduced yet, maybe it is a local problem.
20101123 20:54:07< esr> OK, hold while I update and try it.
20101123 20:54:29< fendrin> esr: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com/DhyMQmLV
20101123 20:57:20< esr> That sure looks like the Horse Archer WML is malformed in some way.
20101123 20:58:42< fendrin> Hmmm, The unit is working ingame.
20101123 21:01:08< zookeeper> ...
20101123 21:01:37< zookeeper> wouldn't it be a good idea to actually use a proper unit .cfg first before wondering why it causes problems?
20101123 21:01:53< zookeeper> ah, nevermind, it uses [base_unit]
20101123 21:02:00< fendrin> hmmm
20101123 21:02:27< zookeeper> at first it looked like it was missing most things units have
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20101123 21:03:01< fendrin> Wmllint is the tool that tells me about wrong unit.cfgs. I don't want it to assert with a meaningless (for me the end user) message.
20101123 21:03:15< fendrin> So it is a bug anyway no matter how crippled the cfg file is.
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20101123 21:09:32< fendrin> esr: I have had a look at the engine output and there is no unit type related output when debug creating the unit. Thus the file's wml can be considered fine.
20101123 21:32:53< iwontbecreative> Soliton: I'm not sure it's you I should contact, but do you know about the units.wesnoth bug ?
20101123 21:33:51-!- Grimling [~Grimling@91.181.21.27] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20101123 21:34:35< Espreon> Soliton: It's out of date; doesn't mention the Ghast.
20101123 21:37:46< iwontbecreative> Yes footpad was also not updated
20101123 21:45:53< esr> fendrin: Whayt probably happened is that the use of base_unit triggered some "this should never happen" case in my code.  The assert did what it was supposed to by making a loud noise.
20101123 21:46:06< esr> I'll fix it.
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20101123 22:12:46< Soliton> iwontbecreative: yes, but as i said i have no idea how the new script for it works and don't really have the time to figure it out...
20101123 22:13:37< iwontbecreative> Soliton: Script is written in which language ?
20101123 22:13:50< Soliton> if elias would set it up i could give him an account.
20101123 22:13:58< Soliton> iwontbecreative: python
20101123 22:14:13< elias> hm, what
20101123 22:14:26< Soliton> elias: wmlunits
20101123 22:15:26< elias> yeah, the problem is it won't work with old versions. not sure it matters
20101123 22:15:43-!- Mark_Fennema [~Mark@bas6-hamilton14-1176002857.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20101123 22:15:56< Soliton> it's about trunk anyway.
20101123 22:17:47< elias> ah, ok. the new script requires a wesnoth executable
20101123 22:18:11< elias> so the cron job needs a full compile, if it hasn't yet
20101123 22:18:35< iwontbecreative> Ah
20101123 22:18:45< iwontbecreative> So it's not a bug ?
20101123 22:18:47< elias> but other than that it shouldn't be that different
20101123 22:18:58< iwontbecreative> It just needs wesnoth to be compilled before it can be run ?
20101123 22:20:01< elias> well, was mostly talking to myself, trying to run it locally here when i noticed i need to spend 30 minutes compiling first :P
20101123 22:21:40< Soliton> right, so you need to setup compiling wesnoth and then probably link some stuff around so it finds the right add-on dir etc...
20101123 22:25:08< elias> if you want you can give me an account and I try to set it up in the next week or two... depending on how bored I am at work...
20101123 22:25:20< elias> setting it up locally here now in any case
20101123 22:25:51< Soliton> Rhonda: can you make elias an account on wesnoth.org?
20101123 22:27:26-!- xenocratus01 [xenocratus@79.117.21.0] has quit []
20101123 22:29:04< Mark_Fennema> sorry to interrupt your conversation, but I need a bit of help/opinions. I'm doing some work for google code.in, and it's my job to convert heir to the throne to the new wml ai synatax, so far it's going well, but i'm not quite sure how to convert when there's different AI for first_watch and for dusk, if it were seperate for only night or day i'd use {AI_SIMPLE_NIGHT_ASPECT, but I'm not sure how to deal with multiple diffe
20101123 22:29:04< Mark_Fennema> rent degrees of night
20101123 22:33:02-!- Johannes13 [~Johannes@unaffiliated/johannes13] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
20101123 22:33:57< Soliton> check out what AI_SIMPLE_NIGHT_ASPECT does and do something similar for the times of day you need?
20101123 22:34:50< Soliton> maybe a macro that takes ToDs as parameters would be best.
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20101123 22:36:22< Mark_Fennema> sorry, i'm a bit new to this, i read taht I should use AI_SIMPLE_NIGHT_ASPECT for dawn, first watch, and second watch, but this particular ai is different for dusk then it is for second watcha nd first watch
20101123 22:36:44< Mark_Fennema> wait, i think i might get it...
20101123 22:36:50< Mark_Fennema> the macro part i mean
20101123 22:37:20< Mark_Fennema> nope, i'm lost...
20101123 22:37:31< Mark_Fennema> can you give an example of what the code would look like?
20101123 22:37:58< Mark_Fennema> wait, i think i might get it... where can i look at AI_SIMPLE_NIGHT_ASPECT?
20101123 22:38:43< Mark_Fennema> ok, i think i got it, thanks
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20101123 22:40:37< Soliton> looks like AI_SIMPLE_NIGHT_ASPECT is just a wrapper and you can just use the underlying macro which is the one i was talking about above.
20101123 22:42:55< Mark_Fennema> ok... i think i found a macro that will cut it, it's called AI_SIMPLE_ASPECT_FOR_TIME_OF_DAY_VALUE but it requests a facet_id, and i don't know what that is, any ideas?
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20101123 22:44:51< Soliton> it takes pretty much the same arguments as AI_SIMPLE_NIGHT_ASPECT.
20101123 22:44:58< CIA-86> esr * r47679 /trunk/data/tools/wmllint: Fix an asset failure triggered by same base_unit cases.
20101123 22:46:33< Soliton> presumably you want the same FACET_ID, i.e. "night".
20101123 22:46:59< Mark_Fennema> Soliton yeah, the only argument I can see that's different is the FACET_ID, what should I put in that?
20101123 22:48:25< Soliton> unless you have to overwrite a previous aspect/facet i guess it really doesn't matter.
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20101123 22:49:20< Soliton> the wiki should explain what [facet]s are if you want to make sure.
20101123 22:51:57< Mark_Fennema> ok, so if I want to ignore the facet, how do I enter the arguments?
20101123 22:52:16< esr> fendrin: still there?
20101123 22:52:38< Mark_Fennema> how do i indicate that i just want to use the previous facet
20101123 22:53:27< Soliton> no idea.
20101123 22:54:05< fendrin> esr: yes
20101123 22:54:40< esr> fendrin: I fixed the asset problem.  Are you the person redoing the UtBS WML?
20101123 22:54:56< fendrin> no
20101123 22:55:13< CIA-86> elias * r47680 /trunk/data/tools/unit_tree/helpers.py: [wmlunits] For units who differ on easy/normal/hard, use the normal variant for display, for now.
20101123 22:55:15< fendrin> I think it is Espreon.
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20101123 22:56:12< elias> that's the only problem i could see in the wmlunits script
20101123 22:56:22< esr> Then he's the person I need to slap with a very large fish.  Grrrr.  He's going overboard with the use of macros.
20101123 22:56:23-!- Grimling [~Grimling@91.181.21.27] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
20101123 22:56:31< Espreon> esr: Oh?
20101123 22:56:39< Espreon> Me overboard with macros? OH PLEASE!
20101123 22:57:11-!- nloewen [184ee0e9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.24.78.224.233] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20101123 22:57:22< elias> Soliton: does the server have python 3?
20101123 22:57:48< esr> Yes.  Two things that are bad style: (1) coding a macro that's only used once, as in {KALEH}.  This achieves nothing but to remove information from the only point at whic it's used.
20101123 22:57:53< elias> i like how much easier unicode handling is in py2 instead of py3, so might be worth converting the script to py3
20101123 22:58:04< elias> er, py3 is easier than py2
20101123 22:58:23< nloewen> When converting ai tags, should {NO_SCOUTS} be turned into {AI_SIMPLE_ALWAYS_ASPECT NO_SCOUTS}? or something else
20101123 22:58:33< Soliton> elias: debian stable, no idea if there are backports.
20101123 22:58:49< elias> hm, debian testing has it, let me check stable
20101123 22:58:53< Espreon> esr: OK, then what's the other big no-no?
20101123 22:59:21-!- Crab_ [~Crab_@wesnoth/developer/crab] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20101123 22:59:52< fendrin> hi Crab_
20101123 23:00:07< fendrin> Crab_, please remember the ai benchmarking...
20101123 23:00:16< esr> (2) Character-definition macros are specifically bad because they defeat wmllint's attempts to check for required attributes in [side] definitions. In this cae, type= either has to be moved out of the macro to the call site -- which is ridiculous -- or duplicated, which is also ridiculous.
20101123 23:00:30< esr> Really (2) is a conseqence of (1).
20101123 23:00:32< elias> seems it's only in testing. anyway, was just an idea, it seems to work so far so should be a matter of moving things in place
20101123 23:00:38< Crab_> fendrin: hi, fendrin
20101123 23:00:44< Espreon> esr: Then ræg at fendrin.
20101123 23:00:48< fendrin> Espreon: Not that LoW wouldn't do any of those ill things.
20101123 23:00:49< Espreon> He does 2 as well.
20101123 23:00:58< Espreon> I think.
20101123 23:01:22< esr> fendrin: If that's true, you get a fish-whack too. 
20101123 23:01:48< fendrin> esr: Every LoW scenario has a bunch of #wmllint ignore statements.
20101123 23:01:52< Espreon> esr: (2) is never going to change.
20101123 23:02:07< Espreon> Recall-or-create is too grand.
20101123 23:02:52< esr> fendrin: Every ignore that's needed is a flaw in WML because it's a maintainance problem waiting to happen.
20101123 23:03:10< esr> You should really fix LoW so it doesn't need those.
20101123 23:03:13< Espreon> That's why there ar epeople.
20101123 23:03:16< Espreon> *are people
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20101123 23:03:40< Crab_> nloewen: {AI_NO_SCOUTS}
20101123 23:04:04< nloewen> thanks.
20101123 23:04:23< Crab_> nloewen: it's defined as '{AI_SIMPLE_ALWAYS_ASPECT villages_per_scout 0}' in data/core/macros/ai.cfg
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20101123 23:04:59< Crab_> nloewen: so, it's just a shorthand - it was a shorthand of villages_per_scout=0 in the old code, and it's a shorthand for {AI_SIMPLE_ALWAYS_ASPECT villages_per_scout 0} in the new code
20101123 23:05:39< nloewen> ah. so should I write it out full?
20101123 23:06:04< Crab_> nloewen: no, {AI_NO_SCOUTS} is the better route
20101123 23:06:09< nloewen> ok
20101123 23:06:45< Crab_> nloewen: it's better because it allows the map creator to better specify the behavior he wants. so, if later, we decide that 'don't recruit scouts' should  be handled differently, we can just change the definition of AI_NO_SCOUTS macro
20101123 23:07:14< nloewen> makes sense.
20101123 23:07:33< fendrin> esr: It makes life just too much easier. Going through every scenario when something has changed with a unit or side setup is just painful. 
20101123 23:08:30< esr> fendrin: You can make that argument about a macro that is used multiple times.  Nit about one like {KALEH} that is used *only once*.
20101123 23:09:12< Espreon> esr: Fine, whatever, (1) shall be fixed, but not (2).
20101123 23:09:26< Crab_> esr: can't we check for required attributes in [side] definition using timotei's --preprocess command-line option to get the macro-expanded code, even if there are macros used ?
20101123 23:10:14< fendrin> Crab_: That was exactly the same thing I have thought about in this moment.
20101123 23:10:59< fendrin> Espreon: Do you realy plan to use {KALEH} only once?
20101123 23:11:05< CIA-86> esr * r47681 /trunk/data/campaigns/Under_the_Burning_Suns/ (3 files in 3 dirs): Add some spelling exceptions and get ride of a silly single-use macro.
20101123 23:12:35< Espreon> fendrin: I might have uses for it in the future.
20101123 23:12:39< Espreon> esr: ...
20101123 23:12:45< Grimling> Crab_: you said you would post new AI related task tomorrow, what time will that be, approximately?
20101123 23:12:45< Crab_> fendrin: I am thinking about entering ~16 GCI tasks 'make sure that separate file for characters + recall-or-create semantics is used in all wesnoth' campaigns' :)
20101123 23:13:10< Espreon> Crab_: DO IT.
20101123 23:13:10< Crab_> Grimling: somewhen +12 to +17 hours from now
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20101123 23:13:54< iwontbecreative> Making some outreach tasks for wesnoth might be nice too
20101123 23:13:57< Grimling> Crab_: thanks
20101123 23:14:04< iwontbecreative> Like translating wesnoth wikipedia page in language X
20101123 23:14:17< iwontbecreative> Maybe a bit short
20101123 23:14:25< Crab_> Grimling: I'll see if you PM me any ideas, by tomorrow.
20101123 23:14:29< fendrin> Crab_: What?
20101123 23:15:21< Crab_> fendrin: the setup we use in LoW, where we basically can :cl to every level (well, maybe we've missed one or two) and get all the required story characters alive
20101123 23:15:40< Grimling> Crab_: is the starting point the file that you gave me a link to?
20101123 23:15:56< fendrin> Crab_: By using [unit] in side which automatically recalls or creates?
20101123 23:16:37< Crab_> Grimling: yes. src/ai/testing/ca.cpp  - there's a current version of recruitment there. see how it allows scenario creators to force the ai to recruit some different units by creating a recruitment_pattern. it's a very bad approach but it somewhat works.
20101123 23:17:09< Crab_> fendrin: exactly. since 1.7.xx, [unit] has the same recall-or-create semantics everywhere
20101123 23:17:27< Crab_> fendrin: some of the other campaigns have elaborate setup to do the same, but it can be greatly simplified. some have none.
20101123 23:18:29< fendrin> Crab_: Indeed, that is a good thing todo.
20101123 23:18:52< Crab_> fendrin: yes, as soon as the 'unclaimed' tasks counter gets too low, I'll have to add new tasks :)
20101123 23:19:30< Crab_> fendrin: but I should not enter everything I have in mind at the same time, because then we'll not be able to find interesting stuff to do later, and thus we might lose students after they complete 1-2 tasks.
20101123 23:20:04< Crab_> of course, having 16 campaigns helps :)
20101123 23:21:07< Mark_Fennema> hello, just noticed that crabs here, I'm one of hte cgi students, and got the convert heir to the throne task, nad just want to make sure i'm doing this right, for protect_location, i'd put the x and y to protect inside the criteria tags, right?
20101123 23:21:44< Crab_> Mark_Fennema: about one of your earlier questions - yes, Soliton is correct, facet id is just an arbitrary name, but some of the names, like 'always', 'day', 'night' are used in those macros to allow to refer to them by name.
20101123 23:21:55< Mark_Fennema> ok, thanks
20101123 23:21:58< Mark_Fennema> just managed to find that one
20101123 23:22:23< Mark_Fennema> and i just figured out my last question
20101123 23:22:33< Mark_Fennema> so no need to answer it
20101123 23:22:50< fendrin> Crab_: Do the students sent in patches? 
20101123 23:23:11< Crab_> Mark_Fennema: take a look at http://wiki.wesnoth.org/StandardLocationFilter and http://wiki.wesnoth.org/StandardUnitFilter
20101123 23:23:47< Crab_> Mark_Fennema: as you can see from http://wiki.wesnoth.org/StandardLocationFilter, 'x' and 'y' can be the part of the StandardLocationFilter (SLF)
20101123 23:24:24< Mark_Fennema> ok, thanks
20101123 23:24:30< Crab_> Mark_Fennema: and you can see from http://wiki.wesnoth.org/Customizing_AI_in_Wesnoth_1.8#protect_location_.5Bgoal.5D , where you should put that SLF.
20101123 23:24:50< Crab_> Mark_Fennema: so, you're right, inside the [criteria]
20101123 23:25:13< Crab_> fendrin: they can attach files to their responses.
20101123 23:25:22< nloewen> in http://svn.gna.org/viewcvs/wesnoth/trunk/data/campaigns/The_South_Guard/scenarios/ 09a, there is a side with two [ai] tags. in the second one, passive leader=yes is repeated. should they both be there?
20101123 23:25:37< Crab_> fendrin: I can handle either a patch or a archive with all the files + note from which revision it is.
20101123 23:26:49< Crab_> nloewen: 09a, side=2 , two ai tags... first tag is 'always', second has time_of_day=dusk,first_watch,second_watch , so it's 'night' one.
20101123 23:27:03< Crab_> nloewen: so, we have, for passive_leader, 'yes' always plus 'yes' at night.
20101123 23:27:08< Mark_Fennema> ok, just one more question, for protect_unit goals, do I just use id=unitName inside of the criteria tags to tell the AI what unit to protect? it seemed to be working but it's hard to tell
20101123 23:27:15< Crab_> nloewen: this can (and should) be optimized to 'yes' always.
20101123 23:27:51< nloewen> thats what I thought.
20101123 23:28:03< Crab_> nloewen: so, after conversion, you should have one [ai] tag without time_of_day= with one (converted) passive_leader aspect.
20101123 23:28:19< nloewen> yea.
20101123 23:28:35< Crab_> nloewen: previously, it was necessary to repeat those things because some version of the code replaced every parameter with the block corresponding to current time of day. but it's not longer the case now.
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--- Log closed Wed Nov 24 00:00:14 2010