--- Log opened Mon Dec 06 00:00:39 2010
20101206 00:01:06<+CIA-44> hakone: shadowm * 6cd17cbdfba8 r122 /.hgtags: Added tag hakone-1.1 for changeset e357545d2163
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20101206 00:22:19<+CIA-44> hakone: Espreon * 2588964fea1d r123 /docs/releases.php: Added a copyright line for me.
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20101206 01:14:16<+CIA-44> umcreg: espreon * r8e89a811e2e7 /modules/umcreg/adduser.pl: Fixed a typo.
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20101206 05:44:12<+CIA-44> hakone: shadowm * 7739c8b08047 r124 /hakone/skel/functions-feeds.inc: Solve known issues with memory leaks in the PHP core caused by SimplePie
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20101206 15:55:04< Gambit> So today it's a starveling kitten?
20101206 15:56:22< Gambit> esr: Is it Benjamin Button's cat?
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20101206 18:16:07<+CIA-44> morningstar: shadowm * r8942d5746233 / (4 files): Make more parts of the CustomRanges dialog work
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20101206 22:31:53< noy> esr: any thoughts about the whole wikileaks saga? I'd be curious to hear your own view. 
20101206 22:34:06< esr> Mixed feelings.  I'd like to be on the pro-Wikileaks side, but Assange is a narcissistic and repellent creep who I think has not managed the disclosures responsibly.  There's no excuse for putting people in the Talibans' or Iranians gunsights.
20101206 22:35:16< esr> OTOH much of the "This will end diplomacy as we know it!" screaming seems overblown.
20101206 22:47:48< noy> Its weird for me, because I feel that I've got an insight to both sides. 
20101206 22:48:53< noy> I work with diplomats on a day to day basis, do I get their point of view... then again I interact with people who are sympathetic to wikileaks cause. 
20101206 22:49:39< noy> esr I was curious, do you think that Assange kinda reflects old school "hacker" culture? 
20101206 22:51:35< noy> I'm not sure what would the terminology for that would be, but alot of his claims seem to reflect the views of some social activists of the 1980s
20101206 22:51:47< noy> (ie hacker might be a bad choice of words) 
20101206 22:52:52< noy> The only difference is that he's got the instruments to actually perpetrate that sort of action... or so he thinks. 
20101206 22:53:16< esr> Yes, I think it is.  Somebody told me he used to do open-source crypto, so he's got some claim.  But "social activist" fits better.
20101206 22:54:26< noy> I'm somewhat serious... wanna write an op-ed with me? 
20101206 22:54:45< noy> I think its something that people don't get....
20101206 22:55:11< noy> like the roots of what he's trying to do. 
20101206 22:55:56< loonycyborg> esr: Why does that Assange guy has any importance, anyway?
20101206 22:56:05< noy> I don't think its right either... he's been recklessly negligent in his actions, but I don't think people really get the reasoning for it. 
20101206 22:56:26< noy> loonybot: he's got 500,000 documents stamped "secret" by the US government
20101206 22:56:26<+loonybot> error: Unexpected end of request. Expected any symbol.
20101206 22:56:44< noy> loonycyborg: err what I said above
20101206 22:56:53< noy> thats why he's important
20101206 22:57:13< loonycyborg> What makes you think that? wikileaks seems to be group effort.
20101206 22:58:33< noy> actually, everything I've read about it makes it seems that its Assange's group
20101206 22:58:54< Gambit> Negligent? He claims to prescreen it all, and warns the press to whom he gives it to do the same. He's even asked the government if there were any specific people that could be hurt by the documents.
20101206 22:59:02< loonycyborg> Don't believe everything you read.
20101206 22:59:04< noy> I'll be back in about 15 minutes
20101206 22:59:20< noy> loonycyborg: I'll answer the question then
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20101206 23:02:02< loonycyborg> If I were real wikileaks leader, I'd keep low profile. But imo even having a leader is a bad idea for such endevour. Single point of failure and all that :P
20101206 23:04:14< zookeeper> it's probably way harder to get any kind of public acceptance if you're a faceless organization. easier to paint you as shady underground hackerterroranarchists and all that.
20101206 23:08:36< loonycyborg> No. It's much easier to character assasinate a leader, like it was done with Assange. Even otherwise sympathetic bought it :P
20101206 23:08:53< loonycyborg> *sympathetic people
20101206 23:09:47< shadowmaster> zookeeper: what's the status of PYR in wesnoth-umc-dev trunk? is it still working for 1.8 instead of 1.9.x?
20101206 23:10:09< shadowmaster> same for BoL
20101206 23:10:31< zookeeper> shadowmaster, good question...i think they're both still for 1.8
20101206 23:10:55< shadowmaster> okay, then they'll be branched away. You intend to continue work on them for 1.10?
20101206 23:11:01< esr> loonycyborg: For the record, I thought Assange was a repellent narcissist well before the rape charges.
20101206 23:11:32< zookeeper> shadowmaster, yeah, i'll port them sometime closer to the 1.10 release (as i think i usually do)
20101206 23:11:59< loonycyborg> esr: From what I gather those charges would be dropped real fast if he weren't Assange.
20101206 23:12:01< zookeeper> what makes assange a narcissist though? i don't _really_ know anything about him except what's in the media, and he doesn't seem like a creep there.
20101206 23:12:37< esr> zookeeper: Have you watched any of his video interviews?
20101206 23:13:24< zookeeper> esr, maybe, but nothing recent enough to remember, except the one where he walked out on the cnn lady, but that wasn't creepy
20101206 23:14:10<+CIA-44> wesnoth-umc-dev: shikadilord * r8148 /branches/1.8/PickYourRecruits_Era/: Admin: branching PYR Era to 1.8 (copy, using r7108)
20101206 23:15:19< esr> zookeeper: What I see is: huge ego, narcissistic personality, carelessness of consequences to others, and no time for people on his own team who urge him to moderate his behavior and claims.
20101206 23:15:44< esr> I don't blame him for walking out on CNN.
20101206 23:16:03<+CIA-44> wesnoth-umc-dev: shikadilord * r8149 /branches/1.8/Brotherhood_of_Light/: Admin: branching BoL to 1.8 (copy, using r7521)
20101206 23:17:30< zookeeper> esr, well, yes, what i was asking was where does that impression come from ;) maybe i should watch more interviews then
20101206 23:18:20< loonycyborg> esr: Personally I have no opinion on Assange himself, but I really hate smear campaigns and I think he's a target of one.
20101206 23:18:56< loonycyborg> If he's a leader of wikileaks then he's a living proof that having leaders is a bad idea.
20101206 23:19:13< loonycyborg> At least leaders known to public
20101206 23:19:17< esr> He's also got a bad case of the standard left-wing fixation that only the U.S.'s misdeeds are significant.  But that's only the second ickiest thing about him, and I more or less expect it from self-described "human-rights activists".
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20101206 23:19:42< noy> back
20101206 23:20:33< Gambit> His colbert report interview didn't seem creepy.
20101206 23:20:45< loonycyborg> noy: Look in irclogs.wesnoth.org for all nonsense I said since you left :P
20101206 23:20:47< Gambit> But maybe that's by comparison to the interviewer (ba-dum-tish)
20101206 23:22:28< noy> loonycyborg: I don't think he's the target of a "smear campaign"
20101206 23:22:40< noy> he's just earned the emnity of about every public servant, everywhere
20101206 23:23:02< noy> and when that happens you can expect people aren't going to give you a break. 
20101206 23:23:50< Gambit> I don't think he's at fault tbh. The government should be cracking down on the ways that the secret information gets to him.
20101206 23:24:04< Gambit> Once information goes from the government to the public I think it should be fair game.
20101206 23:24:14< noy> What public servant, be it a diplomat or a health care worker
20101206 23:24:18< noy> whether that be*
20101206 23:24:42< noy> wants to see their reporting splayed on the internet
20101206 23:24:48< esr> So, would you also argue that if I have a devective lock on my door the burglar is not to blame?
20101206 23:25:10< esr> s/devective/defective/
20101206 23:25:12< noy> Gambit: they did.. he's in jail. 
20101206 23:25:14< Gambit> That metaphor doesn't fit.
20101206 23:25:22< noy> It doesn't? 
20101206 23:25:29< Gambit> esr: If you had a bodyguard who invited the burglar into your house knowing he was a thief.
20101206 23:25:40< noy> Gambit: the material is protected by US law... he's handling illegal goods
20101206 23:25:56< Gambit> The lock doesn't fit because the people giving away the secret information are not inanimate objects.
20101206 23:25:57< noy> and then distributing it
20101206 23:26:09< Gambit> If Assange broke into a computer, then yes he needs to go to jail.
20101206 23:26:19< Gambit> People that were trusted with secret information decided to hand it over to him.
20101206 23:26:24< esr> Then your security system is defective.  This does not exonerate the burglar. 
20101206 23:26:24< Gambit> Their fault; not his.
20101206 23:26:41< noy> Basically he's engaged in espionage, and undertaking practices that do not conform to journalism
20101206 23:29:56< Gambit> Okay. That's true.
20101206 23:30:05< zookeeper> legality seems pretty irrelevant to me, when the whole point is clearly the idea that the information should not be secret (and thus illegal to publish). the more interesting question to me is whether to agree with that idea or not.
20101206 23:30:26< Gambit> Still it is easier to control the people that you hire than the billions of potential Julian's in the world.
20101206 23:31:07< loonycyborg> This secrecy isn't there to cover incompetence or crime, so if leaks expose those then it's alright imo.
20101206 23:31:25< noy> loonycyborg: he's not doing that though
20101206 23:32:09< noy> the only thing I've seen that is close to being considered a crime was his first disclosure... the death of the UPI reporters video
20101206 23:32:10< esr> I have mixed feelings about this.  On the one hand, I have famously argued that sunlight is the best disinfectant, in code and elsewhere. On the other hand, publishing government secrets has consequential ethical problems that publishing code does not.  
20101206 23:33:11< noy> esr: I think thats true... its more than that; its a cultural issue for public servants. 
20101206 23:33:18< noy> and governments
20101206 23:33:54< loonycyborg> Many of those leaks seem to be public knowledge.
20101206 23:34:37< loonycyborg> I've read a couple cables related to russia recently and didn't find much facts that weren't covered by mass media here.
20101206 23:34:43< esr> Was Daniel Ellsbetg right to expose Pentagon deceptions about the Vietnam war, knowing the the likely consequence would be to hand an entire country over to murderous Communist totalitarians?  I didn't think that was right action in 1971 and still don't today.  When seeking to rectify a crime, it is important not to enable greater ones.
20101206 23:35:06< noy> most are, but the disclosure is extremely awkward and actually harms the policy process. 
20101206 23:35:33< esr> Assange's crime i'sn't on the scale of Ellsberg's but it's of a similar kind.
20101206 23:35:39< noy> esr give me one sec...
20101206 23:37:40< esr> I am less concerned than noy about harm to the diplomatic and policy process.  But I am *very* concerned about the cost of Ellsberg's and Assange's moral vanity in actual human lives.
20101206 23:38:45< noy> esr: I think that assange's is far far worse actually. Ellseberg's disclosure was closer to that of a whistleblower. Assange is just taking a random series of documents for "freedom's sake."
20101206 23:39:17< noy> Ellsberg basically he was contradicting what his superiors said they did not know. 
20101206 23:39:45< noy> While Assange isn't doing that at all. Actually I really don't think he knows what he's doing. 
20101206 23:40:19< esr> I judge by the consequences in mass death, not motives.  It is highly unlikely that any of the consequences of Wikileaks will include a genocide on the scale of the Angkha massacres.
20101206 23:41:02< noy> By the point of 1971 the US was going to leave anyway. 
20101206 23:41:09< noy> Tet sealed that in 69
20101206 23:41:34< esr> Highly debatable.
20101206 23:41:47< noy> Given the US drawdown rates after Tet, I don't think it is
20101206 23:42:54< esr> If that were true, it undermines the *other* end of Ellsberg's justification.
20101206 23:43:16< esr> And in any case the 1973 aid cutoff was not a given.
20101206 23:43:54< noy> Well the US wasn't interested in using its ground troops anymore and just replaced it with aerial assets. 
20101206 23:45:21< noy> As early as 69 Nixon was making it clear that he wanted out. 
20101206 23:46:02< noy> regardless, this isn't really a point of contention. 
20101206 23:48:25< esr> Indeed.
20101206 23:48:53< noy> esr: going back to what I was saying before about the damage to the policy process, I think events like wikileaks actually does harm it. I've seen the proof actually in other similar events. 
20101206 23:49:34< esr> I don't question that.  It doesn't concern me quite as much as it bothers you. but I have no doubt there is real harm.
20101206 23:49:36< noy> Its actually part of a greater trend that is making the public service less effective at their jobs. 
20101206 23:50:14< esr> Please don't forget thst I'm an anarchist :-)
20101206 23:50:53< noy> Well I think you're right there is a direct consequences, but I think in the long term the secondary consequences are actually just as severe.
20101206 23:52:47< noy> you might enjoy this book: http://www.amazon.com/Power-Where-Donald-J-Savoie/dp/0773537589/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1291675601&sr=8-1
20101206 23:57:05< zookeeper> i like my morals simple. if you start to assign moral value to actions which really have no direct consequences but only possible indirect ones in the form of moral choices of other people, you can end up in ridiculous situations and it's just generally harder to know what's the right thing to do.
--- Log closed Tue Dec 07 00:00:14 2010