--- Log opened Fri Dec 31 00:00:58 2010
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20101231 02:01:25< Elvish_Pillager> hey
20101231 02:01:56< Elvish_Pillager> Aethaeryn was just speculating about whether WML can/will be able to send chat messages in the dev versions
20101231 02:02:04< Elvish_Pillager> do people in here know about that?
20101231 02:02:46< Espreon> Elvish_Pillager: I think Gambit wrote a tag for that.
20101231 02:03:12< Gambit> Elvish_Pillager: [chat]sender=string message=string side=list[/chat]
20101231 02:03:20< Gambit> see the WML reference
20101231 02:03:25< Elvish_Pillager> okay
20101231 02:03:27< Gambit> patched it into 1.9.3 a few months back
20101231 02:03:47< Gambit> well it was 1.9.0 at that time, but yeah...
20101231 02:04:05< Elvish_Pillager> what color does the message appear in?
20101231 02:04:54< Gambit> white currently
20101231 02:05:20< Gambit> silene plans to make it team-label-blue
20101231 02:05:27< Gambit> to prevent observer spoofing
20101231 02:05:37< Gambit> I don't know if that has been done yet or not
20101231 02:05:43< Elvish_Pillager> shouldn't it be possible for WML to specify the color?
20101231 02:05:49< Gambit> No.
20101231 02:05:57< Elvish_Pillager> so that, e.g. you can make chat messages as if they're from enemy leaders?
20101231 02:05:58< Elvish_Pillager> why not?
20101231 02:06:03< Gambit> There were fears that people would make scenarios that impersonate players.
20101231 02:06:11< Elvish_Pillager> uh
20101231 02:06:17< Elvish_Pillager> how is that something to be afraid of?
20101231 02:06:31< Gambit> ViewersAreMorons
20101231 02:06:50< Gambit> We don't need a scenario where noy curses players in player-2-blue
20101231 02:07:01< Elvish_Pillager> I'm sure there's LOTS of ways I could trick moronic viewers without this feature
20101231 02:07:08< noy> ?
20101231 02:07:38< Elvish_Pillager> and honestly, having Noy curse players as a player... in a game where Noy isn't playing? How is that even remotely believable?
20101231 02:08:10< Gambit> Elvish_Pillager: Well presently lua can't change the color of chat messages
20101231 02:08:14< Gambit> And the tag is coded in lua
20101231 02:08:25< Gambit> had we gone with my original C++ version I could have done that
20101231 02:08:37< Elvish_Pillager> so, why not make it be able to do that?
20101231 02:08:59< Gambit> Because of ViewersAreMorons and because they want as much as possible to be in lua
20101231 02:09:11< Gambit> (not my reasons)
20101231 02:09:36< Elvish_Pillager> but in all seriousness, the reason I'm asking about this is because every current way of telling the player things sucks. Messages? You click past them accidentally. Floating text? It goes away too fast.
20101231 02:09:51< Gambit> Elvish_Pillager: I agree. That's why I made [chat]
20101231 02:10:01< Gambit> Messages pause the game is another reason they suck.
20101231 02:12:11< Gambit> As for [chat]'s limitations, nothing I can do at the moment.
20101231 02:12:23< Elvish_Pillager> alright
20101231 02:16:24< noy> Elvish_Pillager: I'd be worried about any sort of abuse of this kind
20101231 02:17:13< Elvish_Pillager> I still don't understand what there is to worry about
20101231 02:18:58< Elvish_Pillager> there's already plenty of ways to misattribute things and slander people via wesnoth
20101231 02:35:09< noy> I don't think misattribution is what I'm worried about
20101231 02:39:37< Elvish_Pillager> what are you worried about?
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20101231 02:40:13< Elvish_Pillager> :o
20101231 02:40:54< Elvish_Pillager> I don't understand this. Was there *any* criticism of the idea of controlling the color of chat messages other than that it could be used to misattribute them?
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20101231 06:10:37< Aethaeryn> Elvish_Pillager: they (Zinc and someone from yesterday who rejoined) did win but only after reloaded a few turns back
20101231 06:10:44< Aethaeryn> First time I made a serious mistake as a DM
20101231 06:10:46< Elvish_Pillager> hehe
20101231 06:10:48< Aethaeryn> usually the players make a mistake first
20101231 06:10:53< Elvish_Pillager> A serious mistake... letting them win? :P
20101231 06:10:56< Aethaeryn> nono
20101231 06:11:02< Aethaeryn> creating an unwinnable spot
20101231 06:11:18< Aethaeryn> it was the thunderguard that did it
20101231 06:11:25< Aethaeryn> y'all were glass cannon ranged units
20101231 06:11:29< Elvish_Pillager> yeah
20101231 06:11:40< Elvish_Pillager> you made a LOT of those L3 dwarves
20101231 06:11:50< Aethaeryn> usually when I win it's because they do something stupid
20101231 06:11:57< Aethaeryn> this time I won because I did something stupid so I let them reload
20101231 06:12:02< Elvish_Pillager> yeah
20101231 06:12:05< Elvish_Pillager> but
20101231 06:12:11< Elvish_Pillager> running it with Bob's RPG Era
20101231 06:12:13< Aethaeryn> they even named just the right turn, and the RNG went totally biased
20101231 06:12:17< Elvish_Pillager> doesn't that count as stupid? :p
20101231 06:12:19< Aethaeryn> totally opposite RNG than before
20101231 06:12:20< Aethaeryn> well
20101231 06:12:24< Aethaeryn> I'm going to write my own era for it
20101231 06:12:32< Aethaeryn> easier than hacking Bob's RPG Era to work properly
20101231 06:12:35< Elvish_Pillager> yeah yeah
20101231 06:12:36< Aethaeryn> especially when I make it into an MP campaign
20101231 06:12:42< Elvish_Pillager> I'm just poking fun some more :p
20101231 06:13:17< Aethaeryn> ah, hmmm, looks like so many of the same people are still playing Wesnoth
20101231 06:13:33< Aethaeryn> I recognize so many names still... Crushmaster, mysticX, Yarghenforgen, Talkative, etc.
20101231 06:13:47< Aethaeryn> I guess you can never quit Wesnoth, only take breaks
20101231 06:14:07< Aethaeryn> actually, I've never seen Crushmaster on the lobby, only the forums
20101231 06:14:17< shadowmaster> Aethaeryn: I have played against him
20101231 06:14:19< shadowmaster> multiple times
20101231 06:14:40< Aethaeryn> Since when do you do MP?
20101231 06:14:49< shadowmaster> since Aethaeryn died.
20101231 06:14:54< Aethaeryn> Ah, makes sense
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20101231 06:39:38< Elvish_Pillager> ah, you're back
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20101231 07:25:33< noy> Elvish_Pillager: basically I'm more worried about a different type of abuse
20101231 07:25:40< Elvish_Pillager> what specifically?
20101231 07:26:02< noy> not on a logged channel, sorry
20101231 07:26:07< Elvish_Pillager> hrm
20101231 07:26:09< Elvish_Pillager> can you PM me?
20101231 07:26:24< noy> wesnoth-mp is not logged
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20101231 14:39:35< Gambit> wesbot: seen anonymissimus
20101231 14:39:35< wesbot> Gambit: The person with the nick anonymissimus last spoke 1d 19h ago.  1d 19h ago they were seen quitting on the channel #wesnoth-dev with the message: Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.2/20100316074819]
20101231 14:39:58< Espreon> Gambit: Why're you looking for him?
20101231 14:40:17< Gambit> Espreon: he pinged me a few days ago and we've not yet managed to be on at the same time since.
20101231 14:40:22< Espreon> Ah.
20101231 15:08:42<+CIA-41> wesnoth-umc-dev: espreon * r8382 / (branches/1.8/The_White_Lich/ trunk/The_White_Lich/): Moved The White Lich to trunk, for it will no longer be developed for 1.8.
20101231 15:12:05< Espreon> Hmmmm... something wrong seemes to have happened with that svn mv...
20101231 15:12:16< Espreon> Blargh, there was no exciting history.
20101231 15:12:32< Espreon> But still, I don't like it.
20101231 15:14:59< Espreon> AI0867: Do you know of a way to merge the history back?
20101231 15:16:57<+CIA-41> wesnoth-umc-dev: espreon * r8383 /trunk/The_White_Lich/ (3 files in 3 dirs): TWL: ran wmlindent.
20101231 15:23:34<+CIA-41> wesnoth-umc-dev: espreon * r8384 /trunk/Flight_Freedom/main.cfg: FtF: removed useless comment.
20101231 15:32:32<+CIA-41> wesnoth-umc-dev: espreon * r8385 /trunk/The_White_Lich/images/misc/ (5 files): TWL: added the blank ellipse files.
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20101231 15:34:11<+CIA-41> wesnoth-umc-dev: espreon * r8386 /trunk/The_White_Lich/ (4 files in 3 dirs): TWL: removed translatable strings from the arrow fake unit; reorganized some things; don't list in help/tool output.
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20101231 16:17:34<+CIA-41> wesnoth-umc-dev: espreon * r8387 /branches/maintenance-toolchain/umcpropfix: Admin: made it so that umcpropfix assigns svn:eol-style to .fai files.
20101231 16:18:12<+CIA-41> wesnoth-umc-dev: espreon * r8388 /trunk/Nightmares_of_Meloen/ai/formula/ (4 files): NoM: ran umcpropfix.
20101231 16:18:47<+CIA-41> wesnoth-umc-dev: espreon * r8389 /branches/1.8/Nightmares_of_Meloen/ai/formula/ (4 files): NoM (1.8): ran umcpropfix.
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20101231 18:43:46< AI0867> Espreon: if you used svn mv, then it should keep the history
20101231 18:44:28< Espreon> AI0867: Well, I did use svn mv...
20101231 18:44:50< AI0867> don't have time now
20101231 18:44:58< AI0867> poke me tomorrow if you want me to take a look
20101231 18:45:07< Espreon> AI0867: All right.
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20101231 19:21:31<+CIA-41> wesnoth-umc-dev: espreon * r8390 /trunk/The_Silver_Lands/ (8 files in 6 dirs): Pull Elemental_Sandbox's contents into TSL.
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20101231 19:38:37<+CIA-41> wesnoth-umc-dev: espreon * r8391 /trunk/The_Silver_Lands/units/ (elementals/ elementals.cfg): TSL: get rid of now-redundant stuff.
20101231 19:42:52< noy> PetePorty: can you come into #wesnoth-mp ?
20101231 19:44:27< PetePorty> Sure.
20101231 19:44:31<+CIA-41> wesnoth-umc-dev: espreon * r8392 /trunk/The_Silver_Lands/integrated_packages/Elementals_Sandbox/ (32 files in 2 dirs): TSL: TSLize the paths and textdomains in the integrated ES package.
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20101231 20:19:21<+CIA-41> rei2: shadowm * r97058dbc61e2 / (12 files in 3 dirs): New Year copyright notice update
20101231 20:19:21<+CIA-41> rei2: shadowm api3 * rdc6fdb71b768 /modules.available/cmd/02_Chanop.inc.pl: cmd/Chanop: C:mod(erate), C:unmod(erate)
20101231 20:19:30<+CIA-41> rei2: shadowm api3 * r97058dbc61e2 / (12 files in 3 dirs): New Year copyright notice update
20101231 20:19:41<+CIA-41> rei2: shadowm api3 * r8c659028f6ea / (14 files in 4 dirs): Merge branch 'master' into api3
20101231 20:19:51<+CIA-41> rei2: shadowm api3 * rd5bcb0d41c2c /modules.available/cmd/70_NetUtil.inc.pl: cmd/NetUtil: new module (commands: netproto, netname)
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20101231 20:27:05<+CIA-41> wesnoth-umc-dev: espreon * r8393 /trunk/The_Silver_Lands/ (8 files in 2 dirs): TSL: removed a bunch of commented death-related macros; made a macro for chracter deaths; made death events for Tenshir, Mesmira, and Amerialis.
20101231 20:27:16<+CIA-41> wesnoth-umc-dev: espreon * r8394 /trunk/The_Silver_Lands/macros/abilities.cfg: TSL: removed now-redundant stuff.
20101231 20:27:17<+CIA-41> wesnoth-umc-dev: espreon * r8395 /trunk/The_Silver_Lands/integrated_packages/Elementals_Sandbox/_main.cfg: TSL: made it so that images are actually loaded... well... I think this is needed. It allows me to use shorter image paths, so, whatever.
20101231 20:27:45<+CIA-41> wesnoth-umc-dev: espreon * r8396 /trunk/The_Silver_Lands/integrated_packages/Elementals_Sandbox/ (32 files in 2 dirs): TSL: fix paths.
20101231 20:30:20< Espreon> /win/win 11
20101231 20:30:23< Espreon> Whoops...
20101231 20:47:01<+CIA-41> wesnoth-umc-dev: espreon * r8397 /trunk/Elementals_Sandbox/utils/sound-utils.cfg: ES: test commit.
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20101231 22:40:58<+CIA-41> wesnoth-umc-dev: espreon * r8398 /trunk/The_Silver_Lands/integrated_packages/Elementals_Sandbox/utils/ (abilities.cfg special-notes.cfg traits.cfg): TSL: TSLized moar textdomain declarations.
20101231 22:42:57<+CIA-41> wesnoth-umc-dev: espreon * r8399 /trunk/Elementals_Sandbox/utils/traits.cfg: ES: removed now-redundant definition of the elemental trait.
20101231 22:45:16<+CIA-41> wesnoth-umc-dev: espreon * r8400 /trunk/Elementals_Sandbox/utils/ (abilities.cfg special-notes.cfg traits.cfg): ES: bound some files to wesnoth-help instead of wesnoth.
20101231 22:48:32<+CIA-41> wesnoth-umc-dev: espreon * r8401 /trunk/The_Silver_Lands/macros/ (special-notes.cfg traits.cfg): TSL: removed more now-redundant macros.
20101231 22:52:10<+CIA-41> wesnoth-umc-dev: espreon * r8402 /trunk/Elementals_Sandbox/utils/sound-utils.cfg: ES: revert test commit.
20101231 22:57:01< Elvish_Pillager> Gambit: Looking at the implementation of [chat] now. It's just a wrapper for wesnoth.message()? okay
20101231 22:57:29< Elvish_Pillager> the 'side=' thing doesn't look like it does anything at all
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20101231 23:25:50< Gambit> Elvish_Pillager: It takes a comma separated list of sides to display the message to
20101231 23:26:07< Elvish_Pillager> Gambit: How does it differentiate between the sides?
20101231 23:26:27< Gambit> Elvish_Pillager: I think I did it by controller
20101231 23:26:31< Gambit> let me relook at the code
20101231 23:26:34< Gambit> it's been a few months
20101231 23:26:50< Elvish_Pillager> this is entirely implemented in data/lua/wml-tags.lua, right
20101231 23:26:51< Elvish_Pillager> ?
20101231 23:27:04< Gambit> yeah it does it by controller
20101231 23:27:17< Gambit> Elvish_Pillager: basically in multiplayer there are three possible values for the controller of a side
20101231 23:27:24< Gambit> human means that it's a human player on the current machine
20101231 23:27:31< Gambit> AI means that it's an AI on the current machine
20101231 23:27:38< Gambit> network means that it's another machine and we don't know
20101231 23:27:46< Elvish_Pillager> but the two wesnoth.message() calls are identical!
20101231 23:27:57< Gambit> no
20101231 23:28:01< Gambit> the one is unconditional
20101231 23:28:19< Gambit> Will you let me finish?
20101231 23:28:25< Elvish_Pillager> okay...
20101231 23:28:35< Gambit> When the game is parsing the scenario and it comes across a [chat] tag with say... side = 4
20101231 23:28:48< Gambit> it says hmmm let me look at side 4. Is it controlled by a human?
20101231 23:29:10< Elvish_Pillager> hmm...
20101231 23:29:11< Gambit> If it is controlled by a human then that means that that side is owned by this client and it displays the message
20101231 23:29:24< Gambit> if it is controlled by network, then it's another machine and it doesn't display the message
20101231 23:29:49< Gambit> It relies on the fact that each Wesnoth client can't tell the difference between networked AI and networked humans
20101231 23:29:52< Elvish_Pillager> so if the same player controls two sides in the list, they get the message twice?
20101231 23:30:10< Gambit> I can't remember
20101231 23:30:10< Gambit> try it
20101231 23:30:23< Gambit> I should hope not
20101231 23:31:10< Gambit> But if, in a four player match, I own side 4 then my client will know that a human controls side 4 and everyone else is controlled by "network"
20101231 23:31:36< Gambit> And if there is no side specified then display the message no matter what.
20101231 23:31:54< Gambit> Elvish_Pillager: An important thing to keep in mind is that it's not actually "sending" anything.
20101231 23:32:01< Elvish_Pillager> right
20101231 23:32:08< Elvish_Pillager> it just displays a message on the client that's running
20101231 23:32:11< Gambit> Yep
20101231 23:32:20< Elvish_Pillager> so this is basically just relying on OOS-causing behavior
20101231 23:32:25< Elvish_Pillager> to make the messages not synced
20101231 23:32:52< Gambit> It uses the same logic as [message]'s side_for
20101231 23:33:09< Elvish_Pillager> ...ugh, in a local game, I can't check the chat log
20101231 23:33:18< Elvish_Pillager> or send my own chat messages
20101231 23:33:41< Elvish_Pillager> I hope these appear in the chat log?
20101231 23:33:57< Gambit> I doubt it. I'm not sure.
20101231 23:34:16< Elvish_Pillager> They do not. That's bad.
20101231 23:34:20< Gambit> There are some changes that need to be made to wesnoth.message()
20101231 23:34:45< Gambit> But I doubt I have the experience to fix those.
20101231 23:34:54< Elvish_Pillager> oh I see, you have a "break" in there so it only displays once
20101231 23:35:35< Elvish_Pillager> this is somewhat useful, but without being able to view the chat log, it has half the problems of [message]s
20101231 23:36:47< Gambit> You'd have to talk to silene about that.
20101231 23:37:00< Elvish_Pillager> I plan to!
20101231 23:37:16< shadowmaster> good luck with that!
20101231 23:37:33< Gambit> Elvish_Pillager: do the messages still display in white?
20101231 23:37:38< Elvish_Pillager> yes
20101231 23:37:39< Gambit> If so you should mention that to him too.
20101231 23:37:53< Elvish_Pillager> well, in the version I have, which is... last week's trunk I think
20101231 23:38:03< Gambit> This summer I'll dive back into things.
20101231 23:40:04< Gambit> Also note that you can do speaker=$unit or $secondary_unit
20101231 23:40:20< Elvish_Pillager> all that does is gets the unit's name
20101231 23:40:32< Gambit> yep
20101231 23:40:41< Elvish_Pillager> it seems pointless. It's easy to look up the name yourself.
20101231 23:41:00< Elvish_Pillager> And what if you want to have the message speaker be identified as "unit"?
20101231 23:41:09< Gambit> it saves a few lines
20101231 23:41:21< Gambit> hmmm
20101231 23:41:29< Gambit> actually it only saves a few characters
20101231 23:41:33< Elvish_Pillager> yeah
20101231 23:41:35< Gambit> I forget why I did that
20101231 23:41:50< Gambit> IIRC anonymissimus requested it
20101231 23:42:18< Gambit> I think it was to make it more like [message]
20101231 23:42:25< Elvish_Pillager> :/
20101231 23:42:33< Gambit> You raise an interesting point though
20101231 23:42:35< Elvish_Pillager> but [message] is filled with kludges
20101231 23:42:40< Elvish_Pillager> it is NOT something to aspire towards
20101231 23:42:44< Gambit> it's trivial to make speaker=$unit.name
20101231 23:42:55< Gambit> I think I will undo that right now
20101231 23:44:22< Elvish_Pillager> I almost always load "unit" into a Lua variable in any event of significant size
20101231 23:44:45< Elvish_Pillager> and the worst-case scenario is, like, speaker=wesnoth.get_variable("unit.name")
20101231 23:45:05< Gambit> give me a bit to update, compile, change, and test
20101231 23:45:09< Elvish_Pillager> go tit
20101231 23:45:10< Gambit> I should have that fix tonight.
20101231 23:45:11< Elvish_Pillager> *got it
20101231 23:45:18< Gambit> Anything else while I'm in there?
20101231 23:45:23< Elvish_Pillager> hmm
20101231 23:45:38< Elvish_Pillager> I don't see any other improvements you can make without changing wesnoth.message()
20101231 23:49:21< Gambit> on the other hand
20101231 23:49:33< Gambit> I could leave the variable thing and make the chat scroll to that unit
20101231 23:49:50< Gambit> but that takes flexebility from the designer
20101231 23:49:58< Gambit> So nevermind on that hand.
20101231 23:52:27<+CIA-41> rei2: shadowm * rf1f844eac061 /modules.available/cmd/02_Chanop.inc.pl: cmd/Chanop: compact quiet+deop/voice/halfop mode changes
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--- Log closed Sat Jan 01 00:00:05 2011