--- Log opened Sun Jan 23 00:00:12 2011
20110123 00:08:05< esr> iwontbecreative_: I'm thinking.
20110123 00:09:02< esr> iwontbecreative_: How big a project do you want>
20110123 00:13:06< iwontbecreative_> esr: I'll have much time in the next weeks/months
20110123 00:13:31< iwontbecreative_> esr: So it can be quite long.
20110123 00:13:43< esr> iwontbecreative_: OK, here's the big one.  Replace wmllint.
20110123 00:13:50< esr> I'll expplain,
20110123 00:13:52< Espreon> Oh?
20110123 00:14:33< esr> wmllint is a kluge.  It's kluge that works, but is becoming an ever-more-serious maintainance problem.
20110123 00:15:08< esr> The problem is that doesn't really parse WML - it's all done by regexp-bashing and tricks.
20110123 00:15:41< iwontbecreative_> I see
20110123 00:16:01< esr> The way it *should* work is by building a WML parse tree that's annotated with two kinds of information: 
20110123 00:16:02< Elvish_Pillager> The last few times I've used it, it's broken more things than it's fixed.
20110123 00:16:32< esr> 1) Start and end lines of each node, and
20110123 00:16:46< esr> 2) Scope of macroexpansions.
20110123 00:17:54< esr> If you were to build a WML parser that produced that parse tree, reimplementing wmllint on top of it would be (a) easy, and (b) an improvement.
20110123 00:17:58< Gambit> Isn't there a WML parsing perl module?
20110123 00:18:35< esr> If he writes in in Perl I will shoot him.
20110123 00:18:39< iwontbecreative_> I hate perl
20110123 00:19:06< boucman> Gambit: there was a long time ago, but it wasn't an annotated tree like esr needs anyway
20110123 00:19:34< boucman> we've droped it more or less when esr arrived since he wanted to take over all tool and it's better to standardize on a single language
20110123 00:20:06< Espreon> iwontbecreative_: Perhaps you should also look into speeding up esr's version of wmlxgettext.
20110123 00:20:17< esr> And Pyton is at least as well suited to the job, anyway.
20110123 00:20:18< Espreon> Due to its slowness, it's not even used.
20110123 00:20:54< iwontbecreative_> So basically the tasks are: 1. Create a new python parser and 2. Write a new wmllint that works with that parser
20110123 00:21:08< iwontbecreative_> I'll bookmark logs from today
20110123 00:21:30< iwontbecreative_> Espreon: That's the tool for English [US] - [GB], right ?
20110123 00:21:31< esr> iwontbecreative_: Actually, if you do the parser, I'll pitc h in on the wmllint top half.
20110123 00:21:48< Espreon> iwontbecreative_: No.
20110123 00:22:05< Espreon> iwontbecreative_: wmlxgettext is the tool that extracts strings from WML.
20110123 00:22:17< Espreon> ... to assemble pot files.
20110123 00:22:30< esr> I'm actually quite good at writing parsers, but I have too many other projects going to tackle one this big.
20110123 00:23:06< iwontbecreative_> esr: I'll try it.
20110123 00:25:19< esr> iwontbecreative_: OK.  I can tell you what the hart part will be.
20110123 00:26:25< esr> The hard part will be coming up with a tree representation that has embededed info on macro expansion in it, in the presence of macros that asymmetrically span sntax boundaries.
20110123 00:27:16< esr> But we need that, otherwiser wmllint won't be able to reason about macro usage or correct line numbers.
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20110123 00:27:44< iwontbecreative_> Ok
20110123 00:29:07< iwontbecreative_> Espreon: It's fast for me, but it bugs with some dirs
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20110123 00:31:03< Espreon> iwontbecreative_: Well, the thing is that it has to be used on EVERYTHING all the time.
20110123 00:31:20< Espreon> So, try that and see...
20110123 00:31:21< esr> wmllint has been a useful solution to a large class of real problems, but it has scaling issues.  No kidding.
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20110123 00:32:31< iwontbecreative_> esr: I'll need to take a look at many things before starting to code
20110123 00:33:31< esr> Indeed you will.  It's not a small job.
20110123 00:33:51< iwontbecreative_> Espreon: Espreon: It just crashes here when I try to run it on /data
20110123 00:33:59< Espreon> I'm not surprised.
20110123 00:34:19< iwontbecreative_> Not only python version, 2.6 also doesn't work
20110123 00:34:21< Espreon> Over time, it broke.
20110123 00:35:01< Espreon> The last time I could get esr's version of wmlxgettext working was probably at least two years ago.
20110123 00:35:18< Espreon> ... well... as I remember.
20110123 00:36:00< iwontbecreative_> I see
20110123 00:36:48< esr> Last report I had from Ivanovic was that it worked but was too slow for production.
20110123 00:39:10< iwontbecreative_> It works on some folders here
20110123 00:39:20< iwontbecreative_> Like campaings/AOI
20110123 00:40:19< Espreon> iwontbecreative_: Run it on UtBS... I wanna know what happens.
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20110123 00:41:54< iwontbecreative_> Doesn't work :P
20110123 00:42:15 * Espreon chuckles
20110123 00:43:08< Espreon> ... Of course...
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20110123 00:45:13< iwontbecreative_> I'm off for tonight.
20110123 00:46:30< CIA-1> espreon * r48368 /trunk/data/campaigns/Under_the_Burning_Suns/scenarios/ (2 files): Corrected preprocessor directives; should fix bug #17547.
20110123 00:47:06< Espreon> esr: ^ Yeah, you incorrectly expanded some ON_DIFFICULTY calls.
20110123 00:47:25< esr> Oh.
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20110123 01:06:34< shadowmaster> inclusions
20110123 01:06:35< shadowmaster> not calls
20110123 01:11:33< shadowmaster> esr: http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=32894
20110123 01:13:15< esr> shadowmaster: Yes, my job.  I'll get on it.
20110123 01:13:25< esr> Thanks for the heads-up.
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20110123 02:30:53< Gambit> Haha. Wesnoth's very own Red T-Shirt Guy
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20110123 05:28:58-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: FOSDEM2011: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/Fosdem2011 | 185 bugs, 308 feature requests, 23 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
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20110123 07:23:51< Sapient> esr: running wmllint on simple WML data will certainly help with proper error detection and reporting, but how will it handle transformations?
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20110123 07:25:55< Aethaeryn>  /n
20110123 07:26:59< esr> Sapient: That's a good question.  Many changes will be expressible as surgery on the parse tree.  Others may have to remain regexp-bashing and move into a post-processing phase.
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20110123 07:27:23< esr> Sapient: The goal will be to mimimize that phase...
20110123 07:28:27< Sapient> for example, if I write {UNITMACRO "Untranslated Name"}  that may invoke UNITSUBMACRO1,2, and 3
20110123 07:29:00< Sapient> err, maybe that's not a good example, but you get my point
20110123 07:29:21< esr> I do.  The answer is:
20110123 07:30:08< esr> There'll have to nbe a preprocessing phase thatdoes all macroexpansion, leaving cookies in the text to mark macroexpansion scopes.  Then...
20110123 07:30:09< Sapient> if we're in a macro when the error is detected, abandon all hope? ;)
20110123 07:30:48< esr> Oh, no. Just changes the way the error is reported. 
20110123 07:30:53< Sapient> macros aren't the only issue either... consider multi-assignment syntax
20110123 07:31:17< esr> Not sure I see why that's a special problem.
20110123 07:31:22< Sapient> x,y,name=1,2,Untranslated Name
20110123 07:32:27< esr> So?  Turns into a multiassignment node in the abstract syntax tree.
20110123 07:33:10< Sapient> right, I guess my point was when you try to do a transformation it could require special handling
20110123 07:33:59< esr> That's already the case with the regexp-bashing, so no net increasse in complexity on that account.
20110123 07:34:30< esr> What *is* going to be a problem is macropricessor conditionals.
20110123 07:34:40< esr> Ouch.
20110123 07:35:21< Sapient> yeah, I wasn't even considering that. mulltiple passes?
20110123 07:35:34< esr> The functionality of tose might have to be pulled into WML proper  so it's part of the parse tree.
20110123 07:36:15< Sapient> you'd get exponential number of passes required to cover all conditional combinations
20110123 07:36:24< esr> Yes, I know.
20110123 07:36:34< esr> The problem is fundamental.
20110123 07:37:14< esr> Er, I have a lot of experience designing DSLs. If you hadn't figured that out by now. :-)
20110123 07:40:43< Sapient> I don't think we should be doing regexp bashing on raw lines at all
20110123 07:41:28< esr> WEll, the point of rewroting wmllint based on a real parser would be to get away from that.
20110123 07:41:47< Sapient> regexp bashing within objects verified to be of a certain type, yes
20110123 07:43:40< Sapient> eser: when you say "pulled into WML proper" you mean doing away with preprocessor directives?
20110123 07:43:52< Sapient> s/eser/esr sry ;)
20110123 07:44:10< esr> Sapient: Yes.
20110123 07:44:35< Sapient> your idea intrigues me and I wish to learn more
20110123 07:45:35< Sapient> still, I'm not sure it would solve the fundamental problem...
20110123 07:45:44< Sapient> it wowuld be a horizontal change
20110123 07:46:05< Sapient> detecting syntax errors across meta-syntactic constructs
20110123 07:46:16< Sapient> if that's even a word
20110123 07:46:51< esr> Suppose the grammar had a production that said any statement could be replaced by a [case] construct, with the arms of the case substuting for the way we use EASY/NORMAL/HARD.
20110123 07:47:35< esr> statement -> tag pair
20110123 07:48:24< esr> The coherrencty requirement would be that all arms of the case have to be valid children of the  case parent.
20110123 07:48:48< esr> s/coherrencty/coherency/
20110123 07:49:45< Sapient> yes, I can see that working
20110123 07:49:47< esr> not saying it would handle *all* present cases, but it would handle enough (I think); we'd have to hand-recode the rest.
20110123 07:50:53< esr> Might even be a good idea to have a special tag group for this:
20110123 07:50:55< Sapient> we already have one meta-syntax tag... [insert_tag], although it doesn't work at that level where you are planning to use [case]
20110123 07:51:07< esr> [difficulty]
20110123 07:51:09< esr>    [easy]
20110123 07:51:18< esr>    [/easy]
20110123 07:51:25< esr>    [normal]
20110123 07:51:30< esr>    [/normal]
20110123 07:51:31< Sapient> I get the pictuure
20110123 07:51:40< esr> Yes.
20110123 07:51:42 * shadowmaster barfs
20110123 07:51:58< esr> shadowmaster: Why?
20110123 07:52:07< shadowmaster> too long
20110123 07:52:32< Sapient> shadowmaster: don't spew because someone else may whiff it and blow chunks
20110123 07:52:44< Sapient> or, echar la bota as we say in espanol
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20110123 07:53:10< esr> Well, iif we're going to go to pure parsing rather than regexp-bashing, I don't think there's any alternative to doing something like this.
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20110123 07:54:06< esr> Sapient: Can you implement that tag group?  Because if so, I can start lifting conditionals in my campaigns.
20110123 07:54:39< Sapient> esr, vconfig doesn't currently work at that level
20110123 07:54:56< Sapient> variables only come into play when the scenarios are up and running
20110123 07:55:11< esr> I think we'll need to see some actual translations before we'll know whether this is a good direction.
20110123 07:55:17< esr> Hm...I see.
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20110123 07:55:31< Sapient> and [insert_tag] meta syntax is built into vconfig
20110123 07:55:58< esr> Sounds like this would have to be as well.
20110123 07:56:13< Sapient> so we either need to make more places use vconfig (possibly introducing innefficienciues and touching LOTS of old code)
20110123 07:56:41< Sapient> ..or move the implementation to config, complicating what is supposed to be a fiarly streamlined basic class
20110123 07:57:13< Sapient> although config is pretty complicated already, it does need to stay fast
20110123 07:57:27< esr> I'm guessing that second path would be less disruptive.
20110123 07:59:09< Sapient> well, on the surface it would seem to touch less code changes
20110123 07:59:43< Sapient> but there may be complications... for example vconfig handles memory management of "volatile" configs (stored in variables)
20110123 08:00:17< Sapient> so moving insert_tag to config.cpp could be more trouble than worth
20110123 08:00:31< Sapient> maybe leave it seperate from this new idea
20110123 08:01:36< esr> If you can implement this thing I'll do the grunt-work of lifting all mainline to use it.
20110123 08:01:50< Sapient> I may be interested in helping with it but my development environment is currently non-functional
20110123 08:01:58< Sapient> as far as C++ anyways
20110123 08:02:27< Sapient> I plan to get it back operational but the dream of MSVC latest version may have to be deferred
20110123 08:02:44< esr> Sigh...and I don't know the WML internals well enough to do it myself.
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20110123 08:03:23< Sapient> the good news is I have a lot of free time coming up
20110123 08:03:47< Sapient> the bad news is the reason why I have a lot of free time coming up -_-
20110123 08:03:54< esr> ?
20110123 08:04:22< Sapient> If you know anyone hiring in the Atlanta area let me know though
20110123 08:04:27 * Espreon thought so
20110123 08:04:31< esr> I see.
20110123 08:04:48< Sapient> I already sent in an app to el goog
20110123 08:05:39< esr> If you're willing to move as far as the Raleigh-Durham area it's just possible I might have a string I could pull.  But I have no contacts in Atlanta.
20110123 08:06:05< Sapient> ah, I do have some family in that area
20110123 08:06:56< Sapient> my uncle taught Hebrews and ancient languages at Duke
20110123 08:07:26< Espreon> ... such as...
20110123 08:07:35< esr> I probably have some zorch at Red Hat, but my main contact left the firm - I'd have to call around.  Think you could handlw working for a Linux company?
20110123 08:07:41< Sapient> he helped to translate the dead sea scrolls
20110123 08:07:47< esr> Ah.
20110123 08:08:13< Espreon> Sapient: That's cool.
20110123 08:08:25< esr> Yes, it is cool.
20110123 08:08:27< Sapient> and once when he came to visit us he went to the ancient egypt museum exhibit and told the curator a funny thing
20110123 08:08:42< Sapient> one of their exhibits was on the wall upside down
20110123 08:08:51< Sapient> and he read the heiroglyphics to them
20110123 08:09:14< esr> Oh, that is some serious geeky coup-counting.
20110123 08:10:43< Sapient> yeah, he's retired now though. As far as Linux I doubt they would want to hire someone who is still using Windows products and not Linux
20110123 08:10:57< esr> Probably so.
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20110123 08:11:30< esr> Unfortunately all mty contacts are, fotr tolerably obvious reasons, open-source people.
20110123 08:11:34< Sapient> It's the thought that counts though, so thanks ;)
20110123 08:12:59< Sapient> I was so frustrated with Vista I was just about to make  the jump but then they came out with Windows 7 and sorta redeemed themselves
20110123 08:13:47< esr> Anyway.  I think abolishing preprocessor conditionals is probably critical-path to having fully paeser-based tools.  And probably a good idea in its own right.
20110123 08:14:06< esr> s/paeser/parser/
20110123 08:15:19< Sapient> yeah, I will put preprocessor conditionals on top of my hitlist
20110123 08:16:03< Sapient> have fun, cya later
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20110123 08:16:29< shadowmaster> insert angry statement here
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20110123 08:18:54< esr> shadowmaster: So, um, if you want wmllint to not suck, can you write a parser that handles a two-level grammar gracefully - where constructs from one can break syntactic boundaries on the other?   That's the real problem here.  Gotta be addressed somehow.
20110123 08:19:48< Espreon> He'd have to do it in Perl. ;)
20110123 08:19:56< esr> Doing without wmllint is not really an option - our mainline maintainance overhead would exlode messily.
20110123 08:20:16< shadowmaster> or so you say ;)
20110123 08:20:58< esr> Ask zookeeper.  He used to be skeptical about that.  Emphasis on the "used to", I think.
20110123 08:21:21< shadowmaster> I don't want to play that game right now.
20110123 08:21:46< shadowmaster> I do hope you come up with a non-retarded syntax and don't get your way with the example above though.
20110123 08:22:02< shadowmaster> s/syntax/design/
20110123 08:23:25< esr> I'm not attached to it.  If you think you can suggest a better one, please do.
20110123 08:24:47< shadowmaster> Soliton: http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=32896
20110123 08:28:09< esr> shadowmaster: I'm off to bed.  Seriously, if you can invent a syntax you think is less ugly, please tell us.
20110123 08:28:35< shadowmaster> I'm not creative enough lately ;)
20110123 08:29:07< shadowmaster> but I know that I'd not be amused writing 11 lines of code instead of 1
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20110123 10:56:37< Ivanovic> moin
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20110123 11:31:35< CIA-1> ivanovic * r48369 /trunk/ (4 files in 3 dirs): updated Vietnamese translation
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20110123 12:50:38< Ivanovic> Soliton: http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=32896
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20110123 15:38:32< CIA-1> silene * r48370 /trunk/src/ (game.cpp menu_events.cpp): Changed -d option so that it forcefully enables debug mode in multiplayer games, as requested in bug #17412.
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20110123 19:21:07< Gambit> Soliton: http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=32896
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