--- Log opened Sat Jan 22 00:00:05 2011
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20110122 01:29:56< Xandal> Anyone here familiar with WML?
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20110122 01:34:39< Aethaeryn> Xandal: Speak your problem, maybe someone here can answer it
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20110122 01:35:16< Aethaeryn> The worst thing in an IRC help channel is to wait on someone to reply to a greeting... most of us idle here while doing other things.
20110122 01:35:25< Xandal> It's not so much a problem yet, but I'd like to know who here is familiar with it
20110122 01:35:30< Xandal> That way I could highlight if need be
20110122 01:35:43< Aethaeryn> zookeeper is probably one of the best at WML, but he appears to not be in this channel right now
20110122 01:36:09< Xandal> Alrighty, my friends and I are working on a 4 person MP campaign and are completely new to WML
20110122 01:36:12< Aethaeryn> The problem is that a lot of the good developers are in European time.
20110122 01:36:14< Xandal> Well, to this kinda project at all
20110122 01:36:19< Aethaeryn> But there should be someone here.
20110122 01:36:27< Xandal> That's not a big deal, we're up all the time
20110122 01:37:00< Aethaeryn> I would recommend liberally borrowing from existing add-ons and campaigns.
20110122 01:37:13< Aethaeryn> At least to get a basic framework that works, and then start adding your stuff
20110122 01:37:18< Aethaeryn> It's the quickest way to learn WML
20110122 01:37:34< Xandal> That's kinda what we've been doing. MrEPIC is a pretty cool guy.
20110122 01:37:42< Aethaeryn> Eventually you copy less and less and start writing your own stuff, but at first you definitely aren't going to be doing very well with a blank screen.
20110122 01:37:46< Xandal> I sent him a message because we got the idea after playing his 3 player Haunted Woods campaign
20110122 01:38:32< Aethaeryn> Just off the top of my head of regulars to this channel... zookeeper is probably the most open to helping and knowledgeable in WML
20110122 01:38:41< Aethaeryn> But there are others who've done some pretty complex stuff and might be able to help.
20110122 01:39:35< Xandal> Well, thank you.  I'll come in with more specific questions later.  We're pretty competent and capable of learning most of it by ourselves.  It's just nice to know where to go if something does go wrong.
20110122 01:39:44< Aethaeryn> Just off the top of my head, I know that Elvish_Pillager and shadowmaster have done a lot of complex WML things.
20110122 01:40:09< Aethaeryn> I've also done certain stuff, but my semester is starting up next week and I have a habit of going MIA for weeks at a time around important exams/assignments.
20110122 01:40:36< Elvish_Pillager> Ha ha ha
20110122 01:40:51< Aethaeryn> Of course, I think Elvish_Pillager is more onto Lua now.
20110122 01:41:00< Xandal> This is our semester project
20110122 01:41:02< Xandal> Sorta
20110122 01:41:09< Elvish_Pillager> yeah but I could still code something ridiculously complex in WML if I wanted to :P
20110122 01:41:26< Aethaeryn> In general, WML is good for scenario stuff and as a wrapper.
20110122 01:41:36< Aethaeryn> The more complicated your code gets, the easier it will be to do in Lua.
20110122 01:41:44< Elvish_Pillager> I think I've created things in WML that are at least 400% more complex than anything anyone else has ever created in WML
20110122 01:41:54< Aethaeryn> So an event that's a few lines will probably be better done in WML because it's designed for this kind of simple stuff, but something fancy is best in Lua.
20110122 01:42:06< Aethaeryn> Elvish_Pillager: I really don't see how you did it.
20110122 01:42:08< Elvish_Pillager> yeah, that's a good description
20110122 01:42:25< Aethaeryn> After months of Python, Lua, Java, etc., I very much don't think WML is a programming language.
20110122 01:42:34< Xandal> Well, thanks.  We're all CS majors.  Learning code is kinda simple for us at this point
20110122 01:42:40< Aethaeryn> Things that are day one basics in a real language are really advanced WML
20110122 01:42:47< Elvish_Pillager> yeah
20110122 01:42:55< Aethaeryn> Xandal: If you're more used to coding, feel free to liberally abuse [lua]
20110122 01:43:12< Xandal> Will do, thanks.
20110122 01:43:20< Aethaeryn> Just don't overdo it, since some things (especially in campaign/scenario definitions) are genuinely easier in WML
20110122 01:43:29< Elvish_Pillager> lies
20110122 01:43:46< Aethaeryn> If you find yourself using a lot of Lua, though, code for trunk
20110122 01:43:54< Aethaeryn> A lot of new Lua features have been added in 1.9
20110122 01:43:57< Elvish_Pillager> If you have an [event] with TWO commands inside it, you should do it in Lua
20110122 01:43:59< Aethaeryn> That's why I've ported most of my stuff
20110122 01:44:04< Elvish_Pillager> huh
20110122 01:44:20< Xandal> One thing we want to do is support multiple eras and switch the AI enemies depending on the choices of the players factions.
20110122 01:44:23< Elvish_Pillager> I saw a bunch of new stuff, but little of it looked particularly useful to me
20110122 01:44:24< Aethaeryn> Elvish_Pillager: There are some things that are harder to do in Lua. Spawning units with certain abilities, for instnace.
20110122 01:44:32< Aethaeryn> I haven't found out how to use the ability definition macros.
20110122 01:44:35< Elvish_Pillager> Aethaeryn: oh, that...
20110122 01:44:40< Elvish_Pillager> Aethaeryn: I could show you a way
20110122 01:44:57< Elvish_Pillager> what I do is write a WML command that stores the macro contents in a variable
20110122 01:45:02< Elvish_Pillager> and then access the variable in my Lua
20110122 01:45:07< Elvish_Pillager> it's kludgy, but it works
20110122 01:46:03< Aethaeryn> Elvish_Pillager: Maybe some other time.
20110122 01:46:09< Aethaeryn> Right now I'm in Java mode.
20110122 01:46:12< Elvish_Pillager> heh
20110122 01:46:17 * Elvish_Pillager makes the sign against Java
20110122 01:46:23< Aethaeryn> Since I'm only strong in Python, I really don't want to start switching gears between languages with very different syntax.
20110122 01:46:57< Aethaeryn> Elvish_Pillager: I'm a comp sci major and most of our courses use Java
20110122 01:47:01< Aethaeryn> take it up with the department, not me :P
20110122 01:47:10 * Elvish_Pillager takes it up with the department
20110122 01:47:34 * Xandal backs up Elvish_Pillager 
20110122 01:47:35< Aethaeryn> Elvish_Pillager: which language would you rather use?
20110122 01:47:47< Elvish_Pillager> Aethaeryn: Haskell, duh :P
20110122 01:47:51< Aethaeryn> O.o
20110122 01:47:57< Aethaeryn> Well, Java is *very* in demand right now.
20110122 01:48:04< Aethaeryn> Android, for instance.
20110122 01:48:19< Aethaeryn> Take it up with all the people who keep using Java
20110122 01:48:43< Aethaeryn> Honestly, if someone only knows one language, it's most likely Java
20110122 01:48:55< Aethaeryn> Yeah, it's really unfortunate to only know one language, but it happens. :/
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20110122 01:49:57< Aethaeryn> Xandal: Anyway, the new model of doing things is to do the more complicated things in [lua], a kind of mix between Lua and WML
20110122 01:50:40< Aethaeryn> unfortunately, I've only just started doing this stuff recently.
20110122 01:50:49< Aethaeryn> Elvish_Pillager is probably better with the Lua stuff
20110122 01:50:56< Elvish_Pillager> in EoHS, I even create my events in Lua
20110122 01:51:01< Aethaeryn> Well, replace probably with definitely.
20110122 01:51:05< Elvish_Pillager> ^_^
20110122 01:51:16< Aethaeryn> If it were Python we could have a skill contest, but I admit no skill in languages other than Python.
20110122 01:51:19< Aethaeryn> Not this month.
20110122 01:51:32< Elvish_Pillager> I coded something in Python recently
20110122 01:51:52< Elvish_Pillager> not that that suggests a way to have a contest either :P
20110122 01:51:55< Aethaeryn> Code Python too long and you'll find yourself leaving out the ";" :P
20110122 01:52:07< Elvish_Pillager> Lua doesn't end lines with semicolons either
20110122 01:52:17< Aethaeryn> :o
20110122 01:52:20< Aethaeryn> oh, right
20110122 01:52:24< Aethaeryn> they're kinda like Ruby
20110122 01:52:29< Aethaeryn> with the "end" stuff instead of {}
20110122 01:53:09< Elvish_Pillager> or instead of nothing at all like Python *rolls eyes*
20110122 01:53:16< Aethaeryn> I like the Pythonic way
20110122 01:53:21< Elvish_Pillager> I dislike it
20110122 01:53:21< Aethaeryn> good code is indented anyway
20110122 01:53:24< Aethaeryn> Python just removes all the fluff
20110122 01:53:32< Elvish_Pillager> I like languages that make their form explicit
20110122 01:53:33< Aethaeryn> And it is still possible to do one-line stuff
20110122 01:54:16< Aethaeryn> I like minimalism.
20110122 01:54:19< Elvish_Pillager> I like to be able to explicitly end a block
20110122 01:54:33< Elvish_Pillager> Python is hardly minimalist, since it involves counting white space
20110122 01:54:37< Aethaeryn> O.o
20110122 01:54:41< Aethaeryn> *counting* whitespace?
20110122 01:54:41< Elvish_Pillager> when you use delimiters, that's less counting
20110122 01:54:44< Aethaeryn> use a modern editor please.
20110122 01:54:50< Elvish_Pillager> Yeah! [tab][tab] != [tab]!
20110122 01:54:54< Elvish_Pillager> that's counting!
20110122 01:55:01< Aethaeryn> Use a really modern editor please.
20110122 01:55:05< Aethaeryn> They'll tab you to line up in any language.
20110122 01:55:07< Elvish_Pillager> eh?
20110122 01:55:17< Elvish_Pillager> ...I'm already using an editor that does that
20110122 01:55:24< Aethaeryn> as in [tab] lines you up with the current line and backspace if you go too far
20110122 01:55:25< Elvish_Pillager> you're not getting my point, are you?
20110122 01:55:27< Aethaeryn> as in, if you want to end the block
20110122 01:55:44< Aethaeryn> I've never counted out spaces in Python
20110122 01:55:50< Elvish_Pillager> I'm talking about theoretical counting, not actual counting
20110122 01:56:06< Aethaeryn> k
20110122 01:56:14< Xandal> What's an easy place to learn all of the units in each default faction?  We're working on the recruit section for each side currently.
20110122 01:56:22< Aethaeryn> units.wesnoth.org
20110122 01:56:27< Aethaeryn> Unit trees
20110122 01:56:46< Xandal> Thank you
20110122 01:56:51< Aethaeryn> I think you can sort by faction
20110122 01:56:52< Xandal> I could only find the out-dated ones earlier
20110122 01:56:56< Aethaeryn> Haven't done that in a year though
20110122 01:57:07< Elvish_Pillager> and the way I see it, it's conceptually wrong to require the context to be marked out (i.e. by requiring every line in a certain block to be prefixed by five tabs) - same issue as not allowing block comments
20110122 01:57:10< Aethaeryn> http://www.wesnoth.org/units/1.8/C/mainline.html
20110122 01:57:12< Aethaeryn> if you're using 1.8
20110122 01:57:22< Aethaeryn> http://www.wesnoth.org/units/1.8/C/era_default.html
20110122 01:57:34< Elvish_Pillager> To make it natural to read should be the responsibility of the editor, not the language
20110122 01:57:42< Aethaeryn> Xandal: Units on the recruit list have a pawn symbol units on the leader list have a king symbol
20110122 01:57:56< Aethaeryn> Not all lvl 1s are necessarily recruitable
20110122 01:58:40< Aethaeryn> Elvish_Pillager: everyone writing according to good standards indents code anyway
20110122 01:58:46< Aethaeryn> All Python does is remove the "end" or {
20110122 01:58:46< Elvish_Pillager> So what?
20110122 01:58:52< Aethaeryn> In terms of reading, there is no difference
20110122 01:58:58< Aethaeryn> As in, I notice nothing.
20110122 01:59:18< Aethaeryn> It's essentially a non-issue
20110122 01:59:23< Elvish_Pillager> I *like* the end or }
20110122 01:59:34< Aethaeryn> I really hate the }
20110122 01:59:35< Xandal> Alright, thanks man
20110122 01:59:38< Aethaeryn> A line with just one character.
20110122 01:59:45< Aethaeryn> At least end makes it look like it's doing something not wasting space :P
20110122 01:59:50< Elvish_Pillager> ha ha
20110122 02:00:02< Elvish_Pillager> I believe that languages should be designed in terms of function, not form!
20110122 02:00:29< Aethaeryn> I believe that good-looking code is an important consideration. Remember, you're not going to be the only one reading it.
20110122 02:00:43< Elvish_Pillager> Yeah, and that's why you should make your code good-looking
20110122 02:00:50< Aethaeryn> Obviously, if you had to choose between code looking good and the actual program being good, you'd choose the latter, but why choose?
20110122 02:00:59< Elvish_Pillager> It's not like you can't write bad-looking code in Python
20110122 02:01:03< Aethaeryn> I like the way Python encourages readability.
20110122 02:01:09< Elvish_Pillager> I don't.
20110122 02:01:11< Aethaeryn> Obviously, there's no fool-proof mechanism. Fools are too good.
20110122 02:01:24< Aethaeryn> Still, it's also consistant.
20110122 02:01:37< Aethaeryn> There's about 4 different ways you can use {. God forbid there's a mix of styling within one application.
20110122 02:01:46< Elvish_Pillager> And I don't think my Python code is any more readable than equivalent code I could write in another language. For me, probably less.
20110122 02:02:00< Aethaeryn> I guess it's an issue of what you're used to.
20110122 02:02:06< Aethaeryn> Python is practically readable pseudocode.
20110122 02:02:12< Elvish_Pillager> nonsense
20110122 02:02:13< Aethaeryn> In fact, I've seen pseudocode that is essentially Python
20110122 02:02:36< Elvish_Pillager> I always use {} in my pseudocode
20110122 02:02:39< Aethaeryn> System.out.println("Hello world!");
20110122 02:02:46< Aethaeryn> or print "Hello world!"
20110122 02:02:48 * Elvish_Pillager thumbs nose at Aethaeryn and Python
20110122 02:02:53< Aethaeryn> Not to mention that you need a lot of surrounding things in Java
20110122 02:03:13< Aethaeryn> With Python, you only code objects when you need them :P
20110122 02:03:27< Aethaeryn> Though honestly, it's a matter of taste.
20110122 02:03:33< Elvish_Pillager> well, I'm not going to argue for Java over Python
20110122 02:03:33< shadowmaster> Aethaeryn: whatever I've done can't be that complex
20110122 02:03:40< shadowmaster> EP makes really big stuff
20110122 02:03:45< Aethaeryn> shadowmaster: Too complex for wmllint at least.
20110122 02:03:49< Elvish_Pillager> haha
20110122 02:04:01< shadowmaster> Aethaeryn: ah well, but that's a "creator is too dumb" problem
20110122 02:04:02< Aethaeryn> And yeah, Elvish_Pillager puts Bob to shame
20110122 02:04:07< shadowmaster> I mean wmllint's creator
20110122 02:04:53< Aethaeryn> If I had discipline, I might be able to rival EP, but I don't. I usually work on two to three projects at once and take a few weeks break after short spurts of working.
20110122 02:05:52< shadowmaster> no
20110122 02:05:57< shadowmaster> if you had discipline,
20110122 02:06:02< shadowmaster> Thunderstone would be finished
20110122 02:06:14< shadowmaster> and there'd be at least 8 add-ons made out of it
20110122 02:06:15< shadowmaster> ;(
20110122 02:06:17< Elvish_Pillager> lol
20110122 02:06:17< Aethaeryn> That requires me having a vacation.
20110122 02:06:25< Aethaeryn> I haven't had a winter or summer break.
20110122 02:06:30< Aethaeryn> I've always given it up for classes.
20110122 02:06:40< Aethaeryn> I'm not taking any more winter courses in college though.
20110122 02:06:48< Elvish_Pillager> brb
20110122 02:06:58< Aethaeryn> Nothing left for me to take, really. They don't offer the upper levels I need now.
20110122 02:09:42< Elvish_Pillager> back
20110122 02:09:58< Aethaeryn> If I ever have a good solid month free I'll definitely do Thunderstone.
20110122 02:10:17< Elvish_Pillager> remember to do everything you possibly can in Lua ;)
20110122 02:10:32< Aethaeryn> The WML isn't bad at all. It's an era.
20110122 02:10:35< Aethaeryn> All the work is in the art.
20110122 02:10:44< Xandal> What is persistent?
20110122 02:10:56< Aethaeryn> And since no artists ever commited to it, I basically have to do all the non-Shaxthal art myself.
20110122 02:11:07< Elvish_Pillager> how awesome is your art?
20110122 02:11:14< Aethaeryn> This requires having the luxury of spriting between 12 and 2 am, when I'm best at artistic things.
20110122 02:11:56< Aethaeryn> Elvish_Pillager: http://wesnoth-umc-dev.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/wesnoth-umc-dev/trunk/Thunderstone_Era/images/units/humans/mage.png?revision=7301
20110122 02:12:22< Elvish_Pillager> not bad
20110122 02:12:35< Aethaeryn> That's one of my better sprites.
20110122 02:12:40< Elvish_Pillager> aww
20110122 02:12:41< Aethaeryn> I have to redo some others, including all the orc heads
20110122 02:12:59< Aethaeryn> http://wesnoth-umc-dev.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/wesnoth-umc-dev/trunk/Thunderstone_Era/images/units/humans/shocktrooper.png?revision=8693
20110122 02:13:03< Aethaeryn> here's another one of my favorites
20110122 02:13:08< Aethaeryn> My avatar actually
20110122 02:13:18< Elvish_Pillager> the head is indistinct at a distance
20110122 02:13:33< Aethaeryn> It's on this unit that I learned that units dressed in black don't actually have much black at all
20110122 02:13:35< Elvish_Pillager> it's missing hilights
20110122 02:14:04< Aethaeryn> Well, yeah, I'm not the best spritist.
20110122 02:14:09< Aethaeryn> I'm definitely UMC class.
20110122 02:14:20< Aethaeryn> Compared with UMCs, I'm above average. Compared with mainline I don't stand a chance.
20110122 02:14:21< Elvish_Pillager> haha that sounds like it could be a starship class or something
20110122 02:14:41< Aethaeryn> I'll just have to go through all of them and learn as I go along, and redo the early ones later.
20110122 02:14:54< Aethaeryn> You don't learn art by being perfect once. You learn by doing a lot of average ones and learning a bit each time.
20110122 02:15:04< Elvish_Pillager> that's not how I learn art
20110122 02:15:15< Elvish_Pillager> I learn art by experimenting with a different cool thing each time
20110122 02:15:23< Aethaeryn> In other words, spending a week or two lots of average sprites > one perfect one in that same amount of time.
20110122 02:15:28< Aethaeryn> Experience does matter.
20110122 02:15:41< Aethaeryn> What you learn on one thing can be applied to another.
20110122 02:15:47< Elvish_Pillager> sure, but it's a lot better to get experience with trying interesting things and failing than with trying generic things and succeeding
20110122 02:16:13< Aethaeryn> Obviously you always need to try a little bit harder than you currently know how to do.
20110122 02:16:23< Aethaeryn> Too hard, you'll give up. Not harder than you know, you won't learn.
20110122 02:16:23< Elvish_Pillager> right
20110122 02:16:53< Elvish_Pillager> maybe I should give an example
20110122 02:17:12< Elvish_Pillager> it's like learning how to draw shiny things by dedicating an afternoon to trying to just draw something to look as shiny as possible
20110122 02:17:26< Elvish_Pillager> rather than trying to make a sprite of an actual unit you want to be shiny
20110122 02:17:37< Elvish_Pillager> (which involves a lot of other stuff that would distract you from learning the basic techniques)
20110122 02:17:44< Aethaeryn> Well, obviously I spend a day or two on each sprite, maybe a bit more.
20110122 02:17:57< Aethaeryn> And no, each sprite isn't perfect, I usually do focus on one thing as you do.
20110122 02:18:02< Elvish_Pillager> That's the way I learn best, at least
20110122 02:18:05< Aethaeryn> The only difference is that when I'm done with it I make it a placeholder.
20110122 02:18:33< Elvish_Pillager> I guess there's something to be said about a project like this where you get viewable results through your work
20110122 02:18:36< Elvish_Pillager> to keep motivation up
20110122 02:18:53< Elvish_Pillager> although, now that I say it that way
20110122 02:19:07< Elvish_Pillager> I think I'd personally be more motivated by making the one perfect sprite, fully animated unit
20110122 02:19:17< Elvish_Pillager> so that I could watch it being totally badass in game while I test other things
20110122 02:19:28< Aethaeryn> Well, maybe you'd be motivated more, but you wouldn't learn more.
20110122 02:19:34< Aethaeryn> If I went and fully animated a sprite...
20110122 02:19:41< Aethaeryn> I'd have to redo all of the frames once I learn more.
20110122 02:19:52< Aethaeryn> My earliest sprites are definitely getting fully redrawn.
20110122 02:19:58< Elvish_Pillager> but then it wouldn't have been a perfect sprite
20110122 02:20:06< Elvish_Pillager> and you were making a false dichotomy earlier :P
20110122 02:20:18< Aethaeryn> You're not getting a perfect sprite on your first try.
20110122 02:20:29< Aethaeryn> If you are, it's not your first sprite and you probably have done it before just not related to the project :P
20110122 02:20:39< Elvish_Pillager> haha yeah
20110122 02:20:46< Elvish_Pillager> I haven't done sprite art in ages
20110122 02:20:51< Aethaeryn> I never sprited before before Thunderstone
20110122 02:21:00< Aethaeryn> A few recolors or glorified Frakensteins, but nothing worth showing off
20110122 02:21:04< Elvish_Pillager> but I've learned a lot about art in general in the meantime
20110122 02:21:38< Aethaeryn> There's a lot of artistic things I'd like to do, but they're essentially on hold right now... they require too much time.
20110122 02:21:41< Elvish_Pillager> I think I could make some badass sprites. But my thinking is more along the lines of one of Jetryl's essays...
20110122 02:21:45< Aethaeryn> I *need* straight As.
20110122 02:21:47< Elvish_Pillager> ...don't use sprites ever.
20110122 02:21:52< Aethaeryn> The difference between an A and a B is often 6-8 hours a week.
20110122 02:22:26< Elvish_Pillager> what do you need them for?
20110122 02:22:32< Aethaeryn> Grad school.
20110122 02:22:37< Elvish_Pillager> :(
20110122 02:22:45< Aethaeryn> If I want to get in a respectible grad school, I definitely need at least a 3.8
20110122 02:22:51< Aethaeryn> Which basically means, no more than one B a semester.
20110122 02:23:35< Aethaeryn> And in the next few years, I'm probably going to be taking some of the hardest courses in my university.
20110122 02:24:03< Aethaeryn> Three physics courses to fill the science requirement, essentially a math minor to fill all the comp sci math requirements, and some 400 level comp sci courses are killer and basically math anyway.
20110122 02:24:26< Aethaeryn> I'm smart, but unfortunately math is the only thing that requires me to study and I need to do a lot of it now. I guess it keeps me from being lazy.
20110122 02:24:45< Aethaeryn> The way my memory works, I can usually get away with not studying/reading in most classes and still get an A.
20110122 02:24:50< Elvish_Pillager> I'm very much the opposite
20110122 02:24:54< Elvish_Pillager> well, except for that last bit
20110122 02:25:24< Elvish_Pillager> I virtually ignore grades as long as I'm passing
20110122 02:25:29< Aethaeryn> I'm an excellent writer. Last minute writing at over 100 WPM with a cup or two of coffee and no proofreading can usually earn me an A.
20110122 02:25:52< Aethaeryn> So the more a class depends on writing (essay tests or papers) for grades, the easier it is for me.
20110122 02:26:08< Aethaeryn> I'm also pretty good at multiple choice because of my memory.
20110122 02:26:14< Aethaeryn> Math, though, they're usually bastards at my university.
20110122 02:26:21< Elvish_Pillager> in short, you're good at gaming the system.
20110122 02:26:31< shadowmaster> you are excellent at boasting too ;)
20110122 02:26:34< Elvish_Pillager> :)
20110122 02:26:39< Aethaeryn> I forgot one thing 1/x => ln|x| and I went from a 90 to an 80 on one exam
20110122 02:27:06< Elvish_Pillager> yeah... that's bastardry at work
20110122 02:27:49< Aethaeryn> So while in most classes I can be good enough to get an A with minimal effort, in some it's perfect-or-B.
20110122 02:27:56-!- otakoeslet [~zal@202.152.243.23] has joined #wesnoth
20110122 02:27:57< Aethaeryn> Actually, perfect-or-low-B
20110122 02:29:16 * Elvish_Pillager is currently writing a graphic short story
20110122 02:30:19< Aethaeryn> I probably need to take a semester or a year off between undergrad and grad so I can do things I haven't had time to do. Relearn the piano, write a novel, draw Thunderstone, etc.
20110122 02:30:19-!- PetePorty [~PeterPort@wesnoth/translator/PetePorty] has joined #wesnoth
20110122 02:32:05< Aethaeryn> Elvish_Pillager: about?
20110122 02:32:27< Elvish_Pillager> If I could say what it's about in 1-2 sentences, I wouldn't be writing it
20110122 02:32:58< Elvish_Pillager> It's going to be digitized, so I'll be able to send it to everyone when it's done
20110122 02:34:30< Aethaeryn> Elvish_Pillager: everything mainstream can be summed up rather briefly. Even something as complicated as Inception.
20110122 02:34:42< Aethaeryn> Dream within a dream within a dream within a dream.
20110122 02:34:55< Elvish_Pillager> And why would you even begin to think that my work would be mainstream?
20110122 02:35:21< Xandal> We're trying to give the leaders specific traits (like Dexterous for a bowman leader), but we can't find a list of all the traits.
20110122 02:35:26< Xandal> Anywhere I could find those?
20110122 02:35:37< Elvish_Pillager> Xandal: data/core/macros/traits.cfg
20110122 02:35:39< Elvish_Pillager> IIRC
20110122 02:35:42< Xandal> You rock
20110122 02:35:48< Elvish_Pillager> :)
20110122 02:35:55< Aethaeryn> Xandal: 1.8 or 1.9 btw?
20110122 02:36:07< Xandal> 1.8
20110122 02:36:15< Elvish_Pillager> bah, I can't currently chat and draw intermittently
20110122 02:37:36< Aethaeryn> bah, I can't currently chat and code intermittently
20110122 02:38:17< Xandal> bah, I can't currently chat and chat intermittently
20110122 02:38:32< Elvish_Pillager> lol
20110122 02:39:26 * Aethaeryn found the statement rather humorous and creative, but did not actually laugh at loud and hence cannot write "lol" at the moment.
20110122 02:39:49< shadowmaster> rofl
20110122 02:40:37 * Aethaeryn isn't currently rolling on the floor with laughter, either. Too much effort.
20110122 02:41:27 * VurtualRuler98 is smugly smirking
20110122 02:41:30< VurtualRuler98> While drinking something
20110122 02:41:44< VurtualRuler98> It's literally the only positive face I can make while having any kind of drinkable liquid of any kind.
20110122 02:42:27< Aethaeryn> May I kindly inquire which class of liquid you are currently ingesting, ruler of virtuality?
20110122 02:43:07< Elvish_Pillager> Aethaeryn, I rarely laugh out loud when I write "lol"
20110122 02:43:22< Elvish_Pillager> "lol" is the humor-emote I use most often when talking online
20110122 02:43:45< Elvish_Pillager> I laugh more when I hear an equally-funny thing IRL; I say "lol" more when I hear one online
20110122 02:43:57-!- fangism0 [~davidfang@209.119.54.130] has joined #wesnoth
20110122 02:43:58< Aethaeryn> Elvish_Pillager: I am aware. I'm actually referencing shadowmaster's dislike of "lol" which has kind of rubbed off on me. It doesn't actually mean what it stands for anymore.
20110122 02:44:17< Aethaeryn> It's sad how on the Internet you'll see things like, "I actually laughed out loud" because "lol" doesn't mean anything.
20110122 02:44:26< Elvish_Pillager> lol
20110122 02:44:39< otakoeslet> ^^
20110122 02:44:46< VurtualRuler98> lol
20110122 02:44:55< VurtualRuler98> I intentionally do a humorous laugh because of it.
20110122 02:45:11< Aethaeryn> Well, I actually did laugh seeing all these lol's.
20110122 02:45:43< shadowmaster> Aethaeryn: well, nice to know I had such an influence on you
20110122 02:45:45< shadowmaster> lol
20110122 02:46:17< fangism0> you guys killed the autotools build in 1.9.4!  it was working so nicely for me *sniffle*
20110122 02:46:25< Aethaeryn> shadowmaster: Does Spanish have their own lol?
20110122 02:46:35< Aethaeryn> fangism0: I've always used scons.
20110122 02:46:45< VurtualRuler98> brazil has br
20110122 02:47:17< fangism0> scons has been a great pain for package managers, guess it's that or cmake now
20110122 02:47:20< shadowmaster> Aethaeryn: no
20110122 02:47:32< shadowmaster> Aethaeryn: I don't really know
20110122 02:47:51< shadowmaster> I don't spend any time on Spanish-speaking communities
20110122 02:48:06< shadowmaster> fangism0: http://shadowm.rewound.net/blog/archives/145-So-long,-autotools.html
20110122 02:49:30< Aethaeryn> shadowmaster: Well, most projects tend to just have one script anyway.
20110122 02:49:40< Aethaeryn> Easier to maintain
20110122 02:50:37< fangism0> i understand, i still respect that you supported 3 major build systems at the same time.
20110122 02:51:02< Aethaeryn> Of course, it requires me to practically install a different build system for each thing I want to compile.
20110122 02:51:14-!- otakoeslet [~zal@202.152.243.23] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
20110122 02:51:14< Aethaeryn> So I did like Wesnoth leaving choices up
20110122 02:52:20< fangism0> if i had some time, i'd be interested in keeping an autotools build for wesnoth alive, even if it is unofficial/unsupported.
20110122 02:53:03-!- neila [5ce679f7@gateway/web/freenode/ip.92.230.121.247] has joined #wesnoth
20110122 02:53:13< shadowmaster> on the upside, Wesnoth still has a build system
20110122 02:53:13< neila> one last questio for the day
20110122 02:53:40< neila> [filter_vision] is an option of unit filters
20110122 02:54:02< shadowmaster> I know some guys who'd rather use plain Makefiles (and not even with dependency tracking)
20110122 02:54:11< neila> is it posible to somehow also get to know if a hex that is NOT occupied can be seen by a side ?
20110122 02:54:25< Aethaeryn> fangism0: well, the reason it got discontinued is because it's too much work, so if someone else did it then there's no reason to discontinue it
20110122 02:54:31< Aethaeryn> shadowmaster: Those things are a pain in the ass
20110122 02:54:57< Aethaeryn> "Compile 90% of the program... WHOOPS! Missing <package x>!" Install it. "Compile 95% of the program... whoops! Another one missing!"
20110122 02:55:20< shadowmaster> neila: I don't think so. also, our WML expert went to bed :p
20110122 02:55:22< Aethaeryn> It requires reading through the documentation carefully, and the documenation being 100% honest with what's required
20110122 02:55:40< Aethaeryn> neila: yes actually
20110122 02:55:42< shadowmaster> Aethaeryn: you telling me
20110122 02:55:53< Aethaeryn> neila: simply create a pseudo-unit that's removed on sight
20110122 02:55:57< Aethaeryn> That's what I use in Underlands RPG
20110122 02:56:28< Aethaeryn> I put a unit on a village, and then it's removed when it's seen.
20110122 02:56:28-!- otakoeslet [~zal@202.152.243.16] has joined #wesnoth
20110122 02:56:29< fangism0> i'll consider it... it is very tempting
20110122 02:56:58< neila> that solution dont work for me since the hex might already be visible
20110122 02:57:24< Aethaeryn> Sorry. Unless it's changed lately, you'll need to find a creative hack
20110122 02:57:28< Aethaeryn> This is a case for zookeeper imo
20110122 02:57:47< Aethaeryn> He's the one you go to when you hit a dead end.
20110122 02:57:49< neila> but its a good tip to think about
20110122 02:58:32< neila> thanks so far .. but you can say that i understood it right and locations cannot be filterted by vission, just units ?
20110122 02:58:52< Aethaeryn> Unless it's changed since I coded Underlands RPG
20110122 02:58:58< Aethaeryn> If I could have done it without a pseudo-unit, I would have.
20110122 02:59:26< neila> cool thanks, i mean "bad" but that saves hours of trying around
20110122 02:59:29< Aethaeryn> Unfortunately, most of my code is a year old now and Wesnoth is one of the few volunteer-only open source projects that moves quickly.
20110122 02:59:56< Aethaeryn> neila: if you know the MP of the unit, you could do it that way
20110122 03:00:03< Aethaeryn> if it is within MP of the hex.
20110122 03:00:15< Aethaeryn> Create a radius equal to their MP
20110122 03:00:44< neila> a side may have 100dreds of units acutualy
20110122 03:01:23< Aethaeryn> Well, consider rewriting the script to have a unit there, that possibly just flees on sight
20110122 03:01:35< neila> if you like i can tell what im working on?
20110122 03:01:37< Aethaeryn> WML is painfully limiting 
20110122 03:01:50< Aethaeryn> Yeah, the workaround might be easier if I don't have to keep guessing
20110122 03:01:53< neila> (i know that already :) )
20110122 03:02:16< neila> you know "conquest" ?
20110122 03:02:36< Aethaeryn> Which one? The one with the villages?
20110122 03:02:39< Aethaeryn> Or the MP campaign?
20110122 03:03:06< neila> the game-mode (there are quite alot maps) where villages used to recruit
20110122 03:03:10< Aethaeryn> (The one with the *special* villages you recruit from.)
20110122 03:03:12< neila> MP
20110122 03:03:16< Aethaeryn> Right.
20110122 03:03:18< Aethaeryn> I'm aware of it.
20110122 03:03:22-!- G-Lo [~Propagand@unaffiliated/g-lo] has quit [Quit: Read error: Connection reset by beer]
20110122 03:03:25< Aethaeryn> Not a big fan of the berserk thing though.
20110122 03:03:57< neila> there is a starting mode caled "capitol" each side starts with 3 villages and the rest gets filled up with random neutral uinits that cant move
20110122 03:04:06< neila> myes all units have berserk
20110122 03:04:23< neila> so what im working on is a feature i call "automapping"
20110122 03:04:24-!- Cyber_Rock [~Ankit@unaffiliated/cyber-rock/x-7112426] has joined #wesnoth
20110122 03:05:01< neila> alot players use to label all neutral units they get to know, so in case they get foged again, they still know what was there
20110122 03:05:22< neila> and atm i working on a solution to do this automatically
20110122 03:05:30< Aethaeryn> So, on sight, the unit gets labelled?
20110122 03:05:35< neila> yes
20110122 03:05:39-!- G-Lo [~Propagand@unaffiliated/g-lo] has joined #wesnoth
20110122 03:05:46< Aethaeryn> if on village and if not_labelled and if seen, then label?
20110122 03:06:00< Aethaeryn> so do it by seeing the unit
20110122 03:06:03< PetePorty> Gotta be a team label tho...
20110122 03:06:15< neila> yes .. that does the good part
20110122 03:06:20< Aethaeryn> PetePorty: well, the variable can do that too
20110122 03:06:28< Aethaeryn> instead of not_labelled you do not_labelled_{SIDE}
20110122 03:06:28< PetePorty> Awesome then.
20110122 03:06:33-!- C27 [~chatzilla@c-98-247-251-224.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #wesnoth
20110122 03:06:34< Aethaeryn> or rather {TEAM}
20110122 03:06:34< Aethaeryn> or w/e
20110122 03:06:45 * PetePorty hands Aethaeryn a cookie.
20110122 03:06:50< neila> but now (thats why i do this)
20110122 03:07:06< Aethaeryn> PetePorty: A cookie or a cookiee?
20110122 03:07:10< neila> i have a mod of the capitiol-mode where neutral units advance over time
20110122 03:07:21< PetePorty> Whichever you want to eat the most.
20110122 03:07:23< PetePorty> ;)
20110122 03:07:52< neila> and here id like to update labels about when the units gonna level
20110122 03:08:12< neila> and i hoped to remove labels that aint used anymore
20110122 03:08:32< Aethaeryn> neila: I think the easiest way to do it would be to update their label automatically if they're discovered
20110122 03:08:40< Aethaeryn> Rather than wait for the player to rediscover them as updated
20110122 03:08:46< neila> but seems the workaround will be, that empty villages keep the label until they once sighted with a unit on them
20110122 03:08:54< Aethaeryn> Though you could do on sight if they're not equal to their label, then refresh the label
20110122 03:09:36< neila> yeah but there is no sight for empty villages :)
20110122 03:10:51< Aethaeryn> neila: then have the label go away when they die?
20110122 03:10:54< Aethaeryn> perhaps
20110122 03:11:10< neila> if they die in fog, label has to stay
20110122 03:11:29-!- Feufochmar [~Feufochma@99.82.69-86.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
20110122 03:11:35< Aethaeryn> ok, then if they are visible when they are killed, then remove the label
20110122 03:11:53< neila> oh  ... in that case i have a unit .... so i have vision filter :)
20110122 03:12:24< Aethaeryn> The only trouble case you'll have is the label will linger when they see an empty village
20110122 03:12:29< Aethaeryn> But at that point, I think the player will notice
20110122 03:12:37< neila> linger ?
20110122 03:12:52< Aethaeryn> If unit dies when seen, then remove label.
20110122 03:12:58< Aethaeryn> So if the unit dies outside of sight, the label stays.
20110122 03:13:05< neila> yeah
20110122 03:13:06< Aethaeryn> This if condition doesn't handle exploring an empty village
20110122 03:13:54< neila> so if i also delete labels if a visible capture takes place .. i think all will work
20110122 03:14:37< neila> only problem: stupid code will be much longer than i hoped 
20110122 03:15:01< Aethaeryn> do it in Lua
20110122 03:15:11< Aethaeryn> you usually don't save work, but it's optimistic seeing code that's 3-4 lines shorter :P
20110122 03:16:58< neila> i havent looked into lua on wesnoth so far, i heard it often here . i mean i know it from WoW
20110122 03:17:13< neila> can i use it direct in a WML tag ?
20110122 03:18:46< neila> and it works without problems as if it was pure WML ?
20110122 03:21:49< Xandal> {LIMIT_RECRUITS 4 (Orcish Warrior) 5} - I found this line under the enemy side in another MP Campaign.  What does this do?  I think it limits the amount of units of the Orcish Warrior type that the enemy leader can recruit.
20110122 03:23:34< neila> yes it somehow limits what the side can recruit . but no idea what and how
20110122 03:26:12< neila> ah .. side 4 will only be able to recruit up to 5 Orcish Warriors
20110122 03:26:44-!- ancestral [~ancestral@mobile-166-137-141-140.mycingular.net] has joined #wesnoth
20110122 03:27:08-!- ancestral [~ancestral@mobile-166-137-141-140.mycingular.net] has quit [Client Quit]
20110122 03:27:31< Xandal> Where did you find that so I can go searching if I encounter something like that again?
20110122 03:27:34< Xandal> Also, thanks.
20110122 03:27:58-!- otakoeslet [~zal@202.152.243.16] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
20110122 03:28:12< neila> http://www.wesnoth.org/macro-reference.html
20110122 03:28:50< neila> but it was luck it has been desccribed there well i guess
20110122 03:30:50< shadowmaster> that page is in fact generated from the comments in the files at data/core/macros of your Wesnoth distribution
20110122 03:31:52< Xandal> That is a very great page
20110122 03:31:53< Xandal> Thanks
20110122 03:43:33< Aethaeryn> neila: you use [lua] to use lua
20110122 03:43:37< Aethaeryn> there's certain things you can do 
20110122 03:43:39< Aethaeryn> the wiki lists them all
20110122 03:44:59< neila> so there's actualy no reason to do things in WML ? except to encapsule al the lua stuff ?
20110122 03:45:22< Aethaeryn> well, 1.8 lua is weak
20110122 03:45:28< Aethaeryn> 1.9 lua is better, but there's still some stuff it can't do that WML can
20110122 03:45:39< Aethaeryn> ideally, by 1.10 there should be no reason, but I guess some people prefer WML
20110122 03:45:55< shadowmaster> most importantly, WML is still the root language for describing stuff like scenarios, terrain graphics layout, and unit type definitions
20110122 03:46:04< shadowmaster> and lua's underlying dependency
20110122 03:46:18< Aethaeryn> neila: Also, that's probably why all my Amazon suggestions are now "code for WoW" books after I bought a Lua book.
20110122 03:46:26< Aethaeryn> thanks for explaining that mystery
20110122 03:46:55< Aethaeryn> shadowmaster: Right, ideally you use WML for the basic scenario/unit/terrain stuff, and Lua for the fancier events
20110122 03:47:08< Aethaeryn> You can make your own tags in Lua, right?
20110122 03:47:09< Elvish_Pillager> neila: There's no reason to do things in WML where you can use Lua. But you can only use Lua for event scripts.
20110122 03:47:16< Elvish_Pillager> yes
20110122 03:47:34< Aethaeryn> So yeah, you do the basic definitions in WML, the more advanced stuff in Lua
20110122 03:47:50< shadowmaster> there are things for which Lua can be more verbose than WML though
20110122 03:47:59< Elvish_Pillager> shadowmaster: example?
20110122 03:48:07< Aethaeryn> Usually stuff that use macros
20110122 03:48:19< Aethaeryn> In which case the WML is more verbose, it's just hidden
20110122 03:48:53< Elvish_Pillager> ...and in that case, it's just a matter of writing a single Lua function to replicate the macro
20110122 03:49:39< Aethaeryn> Also sometimes WML allows combining steps that Lua doesn't.
20110122 03:49:41< neila> so, the full lua in implemented in 1.8, its just the "enviroment" that is getting improved in 1.9+ ?
20110122 03:49:49< Aethaeryn> So you can have multiple things in a [tag] that in Lua would be separate lines
20110122 03:49:54< Elvish_Pillager> Aethaeryn: example?
20110122 03:50:10< Aethaeryn> neila: well, more stuff can be done with Lua in 1.9, if that's what you mean
20110122 03:50:14< Aethaeryn> It can interface better or w/e
20110122 03:50:21< Aethaeryn> Elvish_Pillager: unit creating
20110122 03:50:23-!- fstltna [~fstltna@173-126-195-26.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #wesnoth
20110122 03:50:24< Aethaeryn> with [unit]
20110122 03:50:31< Aethaeryn> Create a unit with certain traits at a certain spot, etc.
20110122 03:50:38< Aethaeryn> It's more verbose in Lua
20110122 03:50:38< Elvish_Pillager> neila: As far as I'm concerned, 1.8 Lua is exactly the same as 1.9 Lua except that there are a few new functions implemented in 1.9.
20110122 03:50:59< Aethaeryn> Elvish_Pillager: few? There's about 2x as many if not more
20110122 03:51:00< Elvish_Pillager> Aethaeryn: eh? with the traits, that's true only because they're macros
20110122 03:51:23< Elvish_Pillager> Aethaeryn: in raw number of functions, yes. but the stuff the new functions do is more peripheral
20110122 03:51:52< Elvish_Pillager> or is just cleaner ways to do stuff that could be done through wesnoth.fire
20110122 03:52:14< Elvish_Pillager> or is cool stuff that was never before doable in Lua OR WML
20110122 03:52:19< Elvish_Pillager> which makes it a bit of a moot point
20110122 03:52:29< neila> i was just thinking .. all could be done by wesnoh.fire already , right ?
20110122 03:52:36< Elvish_Pillager> yeah
20110122 03:52:44< Aethaeryn> I like having errors in <Error> This is an error.
20110122 03:52:50< Aethaeryn> Rather than having a pop up dialog
20110122 03:52:54< Elvish_Pillager> neila: Everything WML can do in event scripts, Lua can do through wesnoth.fire
20110122 03:53:31< neila> and performance?
20110122 03:53:41< neila> i expect some overhead in he lua ?
20110122 03:53:44< shadowmaster> not really
20110122 03:53:56< shadowmaster> many built-in WML actions are implemented in Lua
20110122 03:54:03< Elvish_Pillager> neila: IIRC, there's a tiny bit of overhead if you write a lua script that *only* performs a series of wesnoth.fire() commands
20110122 03:54:07< Elvish_Pillager> but you pretty much never do that
20110122 03:54:38< Elvish_Pillager> as far as I've seen, for all practical purposes, Lua is basically 50x faster than WML at everything
20110122 03:54:52< neila> so after the init stuff is done a lua soltion might run faster than a WML version if stuff gets more "logic"
20110122 03:55:29< Aethaeryn> There's two ways to have compact code.
20110122 03:55:30< Elvish_Pillager> If stuff gets *any* logic, yes.
20110122 03:55:43< Aethaeryn> One is through macros. Both zookeeper and shadowmaster discourage the use of macros.
20110122 03:55:46< Aethaeryn> The other is through Lua.
20110122 03:55:53< shadowmaster> Aethaeryn: say macros and I'll stab- whaaaaaaaaa
20110122 03:55:55 * shadowmaster stabs Aethaeryn on his right foot
20110122 03:55:59< Aethaeryn> If you're going to do something complex like an RPG or something that isn't easily done without lots of code, do it in Lua.
20110122 03:56:08 * Elvish_Pillager stabs shadowmaster and zookeeper
20110122 03:56:25 * shadowmaster nukes Elvish_Pillager for stabbing mainline developers
20110122 03:56:31< Aethaeryn> Elvish_Pillager: can't you just make a Lua tag instead of a macro of lua code?
20110122 03:56:40< Elvish_Pillager> although it's much more reasonable to take an anti-macro stance now that Lua means you shouldn't be using WML in the first place, much less WML macros
20110122 03:56:54< Aethaeryn> So [lua] foo = bar [/lua] instead of {foo bar}
20110122 03:57:05< shadowmaster> between macros and lua, [fire_event] and dynamic WML appeared
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20110122 03:57:27< Elvish_Pillager> yeah but you still needed macros to make it less than titanically verbose
20110122 03:57:35< Aethaeryn> I don't care about WML anymore
20110122 03:57:43< Aethaeryn> It was all fine and cool to tolerate it until I learned how to program.
20110122 03:57:50< Aethaeryn> But it's so inelegant compared to a real language.
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20110122 03:58:11< Aethaeryn> For example
20110122 03:58:12< shadowmaster> Aethaeryn: did you ever read my blog post on the matter?
20110122 03:58:21< Aethaeryn> Are all variables global to the scenario?
20110122 03:58:33< Aethaeryn> Because real programming has discouraged global variables since... well, forever.
20110122 03:58:35< Elvish_Pillager> Aethaeryn: WML variables?
20110122 03:58:40< Aethaeryn> Yes, wml variables
20110122 03:58:46< Elvish_Pillager> well...
20110122 03:58:57< Elvish_Pillager> well, you can't have local variables, yes
20110122 03:58:58< shadowmaster> I'll take it as a "no" or a "I don't care" or a "LIFO mode engaged"
20110122 03:59:10< Elvish_Pillager> however, variables with the scenario as their scope are hardly bad
20110122 03:59:14< Aethaeryn> shadowmaster: Well, no, I didn't read it
20110122 03:59:16< Elvish_Pillager> since the scenario is a meaningful object
20110122 03:59:30< shadowmaster> so, "LIFO mode engaged" indeed ;)
20110122 03:59:32< Aethaeryn> Elvish_Pillager: well, imo variables should be within an [event] unless declared
20110122 03:59:55< Elvish_Pillager> Aethaeryn: We agree that there should be scenario variables and local variables, right?
20110122 04:00:01< Aethaeryn> Yes.
20110122 04:00:24< Elvish_Pillager> between that and "WML is shit for scripting, use Lua" I'm not sure we have much more to say :p
20110122 04:00:47< Aethaeryn> Elvish_Pillager: how do you read in macros into Lua?
20110122 04:01:48< Elvish_Pillager> [set_variables] name=WML_to_Lua_transit [literal] {MACRO} [/literal] [/set_variables] [lua] code=<< whatever = wesnoth.get_variable("WML_to_Lua_transit") >>[lua]
20110122 04:03:15< Aethaeryn> oooh
20110122 04:03:36< neila> so than, how difficult it is in lua to have a "dictionary" to store stuff in (a dictionary i mean a kind of object you can store stuff by a key in (so you have stuff lile "exists(key)" and "get(key)" and also iterate throw all elements)
20110122 04:05:03< Aethaeryn> Elvish_Pillager: you missed a spot
20110122 04:05:09< Aethaeryn> "local whatever = foo"
20110122 04:05:12< Aethaeryn> :-P
20110122 04:05:14< Elvish_Pillager> No.
20110122 04:05:26< Elvish_Pillager> That would do nothing at all because the code ends :p
20110122 04:05:40< Aethaeryn> well, I assumed that was just the beginning
20110122 04:05:48< shadowmaster> neila: well, they are part of the language.
20110122 04:06:01< Elvish_Pillager> well, it doesn't really matter whether you keep it around as a global Lua variable or a WML variable
20110122 04:06:11< Elvish_Pillager> it just changes how you refer to it elsewhere in Lua
20110122 04:07:34< Aethaeryn> oh, I just love the way to comment out WML btw
20110122 04:07:40< Aethaeryn> just define it as a macro you never call :P
20110122 04:08:02< Aethaeryn> so elegant :P
20110122 04:08:05< Elvish_Pillager> can't you do it the same way you can in C, with an #ifdef NOT ?
20110122 04:08:51< Aethaeryn> I also love the graceful handling of errors in Wesnoth WML
20110122 04:09:06< Aethaeryn> Missed one word in a macro def? Let's show you that message so that you have to hit okay 5-10 times
20110122 04:09:13< shadowmaster> #ifdef WHATEVER_THAT_WON'T_BE_EVER_DEFINED
20110122 04:09:16< shadowmaster> in other words, #ifdef 0
20110122 04:09:24< shadowmaster> (yes, you can #define 0)
20110122 04:09:49< Elvish_Pillager> #define NEVER_DEFINED "hahaha you suck" #enddef
20110122 04:09:55< shadowmaster> (but that'd be as stupid as defining NULL to 0x1)
20110122 04:10:14< shadowmaster> (or even worse, "")
20110122 04:10:33< Elvish_Pillager> or worse, {"":true}
20110122 04:11:04< shadowmaster> that wouldn't compile
20110122 04:11:05< Elvish_Pillager> (hmm, I don't actually know any programming languages where that's reasonable code)
20110122 04:11:41 * fangism1 #defines 0 to 1 and causes the universe to implode
20110122 04:11:56< Elvish_Pillager> what? sure it would compile, as long as you don't expand it anywhere :)
20110122 04:12:14< Elvish_Pillager> fangism1: that's a perfectly legitimate thing to do in C
20110122 04:12:15< neila> C:   #DEFINE TRUE FALSE
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20110122 04:12:28< fangism1> i know, it's great for obfuscation!
20110122 04:13:19< joo> lol
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20110122 04:46:36< Xandal> Anyone around familiar with WML willing to help a new developer?  :>
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20110122 04:55:19< ancestral> Xandal: Did anyone reply?
20110122 04:55:41< Xandal> No :<
20110122 04:58:36< ancestral> Xandal: So what do you need help with?
20110122 04:58:54< ancestral> Are you starting at ground zero, basically? :)
20110122 04:59:37< Xandal> To an extent.  We're working with chunks of MrEpic's The Haunted Woods MP Campaign.  Currently we only have a single map/scenario ready because we're getting used to WML and want to attempt a playtest.
20110122 04:59:40< Xandal> Oh, and Main
20110122 04:59:42< Xandal> We have main
20110122 05:00:19< Xandal> But Elivsh Pillager gave us a little help
20110122 05:00:21< Xandal> Main is loading
20110122 05:00:25< Xandal> But our scenario file is not loading
20110122 05:02:27< ancestral> Can I download it?
20110122 05:02:40< ancestral> It's been a while, but I'll see if I can debug why
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20110122 05:04:57< Xandal> Sure, let me upload it.
20110122 05:05:00< Xandal> Or
20110122 05:05:09< Xandal> Do you want me to send it to you through IRC?
20110122 05:05:59< ancestral> We can try
20110122 05:13:54< ancestral> Xandal: So you need to put path=data/add-ons/Rite_Of_Way in quotes
20110122 05:14:00< ancestral> path="data/add-ons/Rite_Of_Way"
20110122 05:14:41< ancestral> Make the change, go to the title screen in Battle for Wesnoth, hit F5, and try loading your scenario again
20110122 05:17:36< Xandal> That did not work
20110122 05:18:22< ancestral> What didn't work?
20110122 05:18:42< ancestral> Same error?
20110122 05:19:25< Xandal> No error, it just won't show up when I open the Multiplayer menu in Wesnoth
20110122 05:20:04< Xandal> We DO know that main is loading because we put a random #enddef in there and it gave us an error.  However, when doing the same with the RoW2 scenario file it gave us no errors
20110122 05:20:09< Xandal> It's just NOT loading RoW2
20110122 05:20:15< Xandal> From what Elvish Pillager said
20110122 05:22:20< ancestral> You haven't told _main.cfg to load your maps folder I think
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20110122 05:22:33< Xandal> How would I do that?
20110122 05:22:41< ancestral> So in the #ifdef MULTIPLAYER
20110122 05:22:49< ancestral> Basically, if the player is in multiplayer
20110122 05:23:06< ancestral> Hmm
20110122 05:23:38< ancestral> Put in:
20110122 05:23:45< ancestral> {~add-ons/Rite_Of_Way/maps}
20110122 05:23:52< Xandal> Done
20110122 05:24:10< Xandal> Still doesn't show up as a map to play
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20110122 05:30:14< ancestral> Okay
20110122 05:30:20< ancestral> Xandal: The path to the map is incorrect
20110122 05:30:26< ancestral> in your scenario's cfg file
20110122 05:30:47< Xandal> *facepalm*
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20110122 05:32:59< ancestral> "{~add-ons/Rite_Of_Way/maps/RoW2.map}" may work
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20110122 05:34:19< ancestral> That would be in RoW2.cfg
20110122 05:34:25< Xandal> We added that
20110122 05:34:27< Xandal> It did not work :/
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20110122 05:37:46< Xandal> We just noticed we had multiple of the same side.  We were working in a different file at first and didn't realize that.
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20110122 05:38:17< Xandal> That is not the issue though
20110122 05:38:23< Xandal> Although we did fix it
20110122 05:40:20< Xandal> Also I checked within Wesnoth to see if it was even considered an Add-on
20110122 05:40:24< Xandal> And it is
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20110122 05:51:47< bwbettin> I saw a thread on the wesnoth.org forums concerning Kyle Poole putting the finishing touches on a droid version of wesnoth. Does anyone know the timeline for that, if it's coming soon?
20110122 05:52:29< Xandal> Sadly I do not
20110122 05:52:34< Xandal> However, I have the iPod Touch version
20110122 05:52:38< Xandal> And while it is VERY well done
20110122 05:52:43< Xandal> Wesnoth is just too large of a game for that
20110122 05:52:54< Xandal> It took far too long to actually take a turn
20110122 05:53:02< Xandal> It's not really an on-the-go game IMO
20110122 05:54:27< Xandal> Man, I just can't figure out why the hell this won't run.  We're not trying to use anything from any other files than the ones we have and the ones that come with Wesnoth
20110122 05:55:56< bwbettin> I picked up an htc evo shift 4g. After having an older htc touch pro winmo for several years, I've been in 7th heaven picking up apps on the market. :)
20110122 05:56:27< bwbettin> I'm testing an irc app atm ;)
20110122 05:59:12< Xandal> Yeah, I did that at first.  Then it all died down and became an mp3 player at best.
20110122 05:59:29< Xandal> I'm so used to how everything is on a computer
20110122 05:59:38< Xandal> That when I use a dumbed down version on a mobile device
20110122 05:59:39< Xandal> I can't stand it
20110122 06:01:53< bwbettin> True, but it's convenient as I bounce between home, work, grad school, etc. Dumbed down still beats unavailable...gotta get my geekery where I can.
20110122 06:02:04< Xandal> I get it
20110122 06:03:56< Xandal> But seriously, Wesnoth does NOT work on a mobile device.  Games take long enough on a computer.  Taking a single turn on my iPod Touch took like 5 minutes.  And it's a  huge pain in the ass actually getting everything right without Fog of War disabling my ability to undo.
20110122 06:04:16< shadowmaster> Disable instant shroud updates.
20110122 06:04:43< Xandal> Oh, I know.  Just saying it was hard enough without it
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20110122 06:13:02< Xandal> Anyone else willing to take a shot at helping us getting a scenario running?  It currently just won't show up in the "Maps to play" section in the multiplayer option within Wesnoth.  Our main.cfg IS loading (we threw in a random #enddef to test it), however our scenario file is not loading (we also did the #enddef thing for that).
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20110122 06:19:02< shadowmaster> Xandal: are you using [multiplayer] instead of [scenario], right?
20110122 06:19:05< shadowmaster> *you are
20110122 06:19:08< Xandal> Yes
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20110122 06:45:40< Xandal> So, any other suggestions?
20110122 06:45:52< Xandal> Anyone else willing to help
20110122 06:45:54< Xandal> ?
20110122 07:01:53< Xandal> Fixed it
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20110122 10:56:17< Ivanovic> moin
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20110122 13:20:58< meway> anyone here have a ps3, cod blackops and want to play a game of zombies with me? sorry I know its off topic but I'm board and I wants to play with random ppls from irc
20110122 13:21:27-!- Natasiel [~natasiel@wesnoth/mp-mod/natasiel] has joined #wesnoth
20110122 13:22:24< meway> pm me 
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20110122 13:46:38< joo> heh
20110122 13:46:41< joo> you're board, you say?
20110122 13:48:36< Crendgrim> he's away ...
20110122 13:49:07< joo> I know.
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20110122 15:28:20< Necrosporus> Hello. Do any adult mods for BfW exist?
20110122 15:29:52< Necrosporus> It's not my question, but some people ask for them
20110122 15:31:15< zookeeper> none that i've ever heard of.
20110122 15:31:43< Necrosporus> Other question: how to install a mod by hand?
20110122 15:32:11< Necrosporus> When I download a large mod, connection drops sometimes, so I have got a tar.bz file
20110122 15:32:29< Necrosporus> Ageless_Era.tar.bz2
20110122 15:32:45< Necrosporus> Would be tar xf enough?
20110122 15:32:57< Necrosporus> Or I need to change any other info?
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20110122 15:59:14< fendrin> Necrosporus: There is a python script that handles the addon server. It is able to down and upload. It's in utils or data/tools.
20110122 16:01:05< Necrosporus> fendrin, I mean, installation. But seems, just unpacking worked OK
20110122 16:01:45< Necrosporus> say I don't need to upload anything, only install an addon, which is already downloaded without downloading it again
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20110122 16:06:46< Ivanovic> Necrosporus: then just extract it to the correct folder and you are done
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20110122 16:07:27< Ivanovic> Necrosporus: cf the text at the top: http://add-ons.wesnoth.org/1.9/
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20110122 16:08:42< Necrosporus> Thank you, I haven't noticed the text, but guessed so
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20110122 16:15:43< Aethaeryn> Elvish_Pillager: Hi!
20110122 16:15:48< Aethaeryn> My new best friend!
20110122 16:15:53< Aethaeryn> How are you?
20110122 16:15:55< Elvish_Pillager> hi!
20110122 16:15:56< Elvish_Pillager> what?
20110122 16:16:06< Aethaeryn> My Lua code won't run properly
20110122 16:16:08< Elvish_Pillager> how did I suddenly become your best friend now, and not ever before?
20110122 16:16:10< Elvish_Pillager> Oh, I SEE!
20110122 16:16:11< Aethaeryn> :-P
20110122 16:16:20< Elvish_Pillager> I am pretty good
20110122 16:16:38< Elvish_Pillager> I had a dream last night where I always forgot to go to class on Wednesdays
20110122 16:17:04< Elvish_Pillager> so, what's your Lua problem?
20110122 16:17:12< Aethaeryn> http://wesnoth.pastebin.com/uu33LQkd
20110122 16:17:37< Aethaeryn> exuse me if my tables are done wrong, I find the concept of WML tables (and only that) confusing unless I space it
20110122 16:17:45< Aethaeryn> *excuse
20110122 16:18:04< Aethaeryn> anyway, when I run this code, it is a menu option done in Lua
20110122 16:18:21< Aethaeryn> wesnoth.fire -> boss_menu() -> boss_spawn()
20110122 16:18:37< Aethaeryn> unfortunately, it will always spawn a Lich before you even select an option as it is currently set up
20110122 16:18:53< Aethaeryn> In other words, it calls boss_menu() which calls boss_spawn even if the option/command is not selected
20110122 16:19:05< Elvish_Pillager> uh, yeah
20110122 16:19:17< Aethaeryn> So there has to be another way to integrate WML tables this way?
20110122 16:19:23< Elvish_Pillager> your problem is that you're trying to put Lua instructions where you need to put WML instructions
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20110122 16:19:45< Aethaeryn> Yeah, but I don't want boss_spawn() in WML
20110122 16:19:51-!- rork [~quassel@ip4da9d28f.direct-adsl.nl] has joined #wesnoth
20110122 16:19:58< Aethaeryn> If I have the whole thing in WML tables in Lua, I might as well keep it in WML
20110122 16:20:03< Elvish_Pillager> the simple change is to have boss_spawn() return { "lua", { code="<<[the current return value]>>"}}
20110122 16:20:12< Aethaeryn> ah
20110122 16:20:15< Aethaeryn> I knew there was something simple
20110122 16:20:30< Elvish_Pillager> the only problem with that is that it removes the current syntax hilighting in the code
20110122 16:20:43< Elvish_Pillager> oh also you can't use double quotes there, so use [[]]
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20110122 16:21:03< Elvish_Pillager> there are two cleaner ways to do it:
20110122 16:21:14< Aethaeryn> wait, what do I put in code?
20110122 16:21:24< Elvish_Pillager> 1. have the options contain { "lua", { code="<<some_function_name()>>"}} and define the function
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20110122 16:21:42< Aethaeryn> ah
20110122 16:21:44< Elvish_Pillager> 2. have the options set a variable, and the lua check the variable afterwards to figure out what the player chose
20110122 16:21:58< Elvish_Pillager> (2) is what I usually use
20110122 16:22:21< Elvish_Pillager> also, cancel() hardly needs to be a function :)
20110122 16:22:32< Aethaeryn> yeah, I know
20110122 16:22:39< Aethaeryn> but I'll be using it a lot
20110122 16:22:46< Aethaeryn> this reduces the odds of typoing later on
20110122 16:22:47< Elvish_Pillager> No, I mean it can be a variable
20110122 16:22:52< Aethaeryn> *oh*
20110122 16:22:54< Aethaeryn> it's a table
20110122 16:22:56< Aethaeryn> whoops
20110122 16:23:06< Elvish_Pillager> cancel = { "option", { message = _"Cancel" }}
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20110122 16:24:13< Elvish_Pillager> AFAICT the tables are all done correctly, and in fact, you're using the same spacing conventions I use
20110122 16:24:21< Aethaeryn> Elvish_Pillager: so essentially in the code="<<>>" I want a variable "spawn = 1"
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20110122 16:24:25< Aethaeryn> and if "spawn = 1" do my Lua code
20110122 16:25:01< Elvish_Pillager> That would work. However, you shouldn't pollute the global Lua environment with variables with names like "spawn"
20110122 16:25:03< Aethaeryn> Elvish_Pillager: Well, I cheated.
20110122 16:25:13< Aethaeryn> I looked at C/Java code and saw the spacing method I liked the best
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20110122 16:25:31< Elvish_Pillager> I've had it set WML variables rather than Lua variables, actually (I guess I just didn't think of setting Lua variables)
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20110122 16:26:03< Aethaeryn> yes, but if I set it to local, will it be read?
20110122 16:26:09< Aethaeryn> or would it be local to the <<>>?
20110122 16:26:17< Elvish_Pillager> then it would be local to the <<>>, yes.
20110122 16:26:25< Elvish_Pillager> You need a global variable - either WML or Lua - to do this truck
20110122 16:26:27< Elvish_Pillager> *trick
20110122 16:26:36< Elvish_Pillager> you should just name it something that definitely won't overlap anything.
20110122 16:26:55< Elvish_Pillager> brb
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20110122 16:35:06< Elvish_Pillager> back
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20110122 16:36:37< Aethaeryn> http://wesnoth.pastebin.com/PSP7dUkh
20110122 16:36:46< Aethaeryn> Elvish_Pillager: Still doesn't work as intended
20110122 16:37:02< Aethaeryn> Simply waits until the next time I open up the menu. If I had tried to recruit, then it now recruits. If not, nothing.
20110122 16:37:07< Aethaeryn> Nothing actually happens at the option.
20110122 16:37:24< Elvish_Pillager> uh
20110122 16:37:31< Elvish_Pillager> this has the same issue as the last piece of code you showed me
20110122 16:37:38< Aethaeryn> it does?
20110122 16:37:40< Elvish_Pillager> yes
20110122 16:37:42< Aethaeryn> brb, coffee
20110122 16:37:45< Elvish_Pillager> let me explain in more specifics:
20110122 16:38:00< Elvish_Pillager> the main code block calls boss_menu() four times
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20110122 16:38:31< Elvish_Pillager> each call to boss_menu() calls boss_spawn()
20110122 16:38:42< Elvish_Pillager> boss_spawn() summons a unit
20110122 16:38:50< Elvish_Pillager> and returns nil
20110122 16:39:06< Elvish_Pillager> then boss_menu() includes that nil value in the table (i.e. doesn't actually do anything)
20110122 16:39:08< Elvish_Pillager> and returns the table
20110122 16:39:22< Elvish_Pillager> _then_ wesnoth.fire is called with the table included in its arguments
20110122 16:40:23< Elvish_Pillager> Then the user selects an option, which may choose one of the Lua blocks in boss_menu()'s output and hence set boss_spawn to 1
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20110122 16:45:32< Aethaeryn> back
20110122 16:45:38< Aethaeryn> sorry, had to feed the cats as soon as I went downstairs
20110122 16:45:41< Elvish_Pillager> heh
20110122 16:45:54 * Elvish_Pillager indicates the log
20110122 16:46:33< Aethaeryn> Yes, I see what you did there
20110122 16:46:41< Aethaeryn> basically, I shouldn't have a function call there
20110122 16:46:42< Elvish_Pillager> The simple answer is "The code you currently have in boss_spawn() needs to come completely after the wesnoth.fire()"
20110122 16:46:44< Elvish_Pillager> yeah
20110122 16:46:50< Aethaeryn> ah
20110122 16:46:52< Aethaeryn> I know
20110122 16:47:01< Aethaeryn> should I crate a table that consists of unit_type, unit_role?
20110122 16:47:07< Elvish_Pillager> ?
20110122 16:47:12< Aethaeryn> in the Lua
20110122 16:47:16< Elvish_Pillager> oh
20110122 16:47:20< Aethaeryn> I could create a table that consists of the variables unit_type, unit_role
20110122 16:47:27< Elvish_Pillager> yes, and assign that to the global variable
20110122 16:47:29< Aethaeryn> when there is a non-nil value to the table, I spawn a boss
20110122 16:47:33< Elvish_Pillager> and then read it after the wesnoth.fire is complete
20110122 16:47:37< Aethaeryn> when there's a nil value, nothing happens
20110122 16:47:42< Aethaeryn> right
20110122 16:47:50< Elvish_Pillager> sounds like you've got it now
20110122 16:48:01< Aethaeryn> I know how to program
20110122 16:48:06< Aethaeryn> I just don't know how to interface with this damn program
20110122 16:48:10< Aethaeryn> Wesnoth is a pain in the ass to code for
20110122 16:48:18< Elvish_Pillager> although good luck assigning a table with variable values inside a quoted string
20110122 16:48:36< Elvish_Pillager> you can do it, it just looks silly :P
20110122 16:48:37< Aethaeryn> awww
20110122 16:49:19< Elvish_Pillager> code="boss_spawn = { unit_type = "..unit_type..", unit_role = "..unit_role.."}"
20110122 16:52:21< Elvish_Pillager> gotta go to breakfast now, be back later
20110122 16:52:33< Aethaeryn> ok
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20110122 17:07:27< Aethaeryn> hmmm
20110122 17:08:02< Aethaeryn> <Lua error> [string "boss_spawn = {unit_type = Dark Sorcerer, unit_role = Undead}"]:1: '} expected near 'Sorcerer'
20110122 17:09:06< Aethaeryn> http://wesnoth.pastebin.com/K8uacDW5
20110122 17:09:48< Aethaeryn> I turned the wesnoth.fire into a function boss_undead() because as soon as I get this code working I'll move a layer up in the menu and add the other boss types as functions
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20110122 17:21:13< Aethaeryn> oh, hmm, I just found out there's a lua mode for emacs with a slightly different indentation style. I hope you don't mind if I switch for the later posts
20110122 17:21:37< Aethaeryn> it beats having to count out the {s
20110122 17:26:00< Aethaeryn> oh, I see what the problem is
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20110122 17:28:57< Aethaeryn> I needed single quotation marks because the second part is a string
20110122 17:29:30< Aethaeryn> This part of the code now runs
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20110122 18:08:44< hulavuta> Gambit: poke
20110122 18:09:05< Gambit> ow
20110122 18:09:11< Gambit> That was my eye.
20110122 18:09:19< hulavuta> =-O
20110122 18:09:22< hulavuta> Anyway,
20110122 18:09:26< hulavuta> http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=32892
20110122 18:09:43< Gambit> aww, but I'm on vacation.
20110122 18:09:49< hulavuta> Didn't you say something a while back that add-ons can interfere with other addons?
20110122 18:09:57< Gambit> yes
20110122 18:10:08< hulavuta> Do you think this might be the case there?
20110122 18:10:37< Gambit> dunno
20110122 18:10:41< hulavuta> ok
20110122 18:10:43< Gambit> he hasn't give enough information to determine that
20110122 18:11:03< hulavuta> I think it's a girl
20110122 18:11:06< hulavuta> Just sayin'
20110122 18:14:39-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has joined #wesnoth
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20110122 18:25:01< Soliton> probably just not understanding lit tiles.
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20110122 18:36:35< Elvish_Pillager> Aethaeryn: back now, if you need me for anything
20110122 18:38:28-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has quit [Quit: noy]
20110122 18:40:57< Aethaeryn> Elvish_Pillager: This is what I have working now
20110122 18:41:36< Aethaeryn> http://wesnoth.pastebin.com/GHiqWHDH
20110122 18:41:55< Aethaeryn> Can you look it over and tell me if I'm doing something in poor Lua practice before I turn the rest of the menu item into Lua?
20110122 18:42:40< Elvish_Pillager> if "cancel" should be global, you should set it in a preload event, not here
20110122 18:42:43< Aethaeryn> And the reason it's UD_Summon_Ze_Summoner for the id is to get it at the desired location in the menu order. I'm going to just turn it into a numerical prefix when I rewrite it so it's clearer
20110122 18:42:53< Elvish_Pillager> "args" should be local
20110122 18:43:11< Elvish_Pillager> don't use wesnoth.get_variable("side_number"); use wesnoth.current.side
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20110122 18:44:53< Elvish_Pillager> your function names are awful
20110122 18:44:59< Elvish_Pillager> and they should probably be local functions
20110122 18:46:28< Elvish_Pillager> other than those things, it looks fine
20110122 18:47:22< Aethaeryn> Elvish_Pillager: local all of those things?
20110122 18:47:27< Aethaeryn> and yeah, the names are awful
20110122 18:47:39< Aethaeryn> my main concern is getting it runnning
20110122 18:47:45< Elvish_Pillager> Local anything you don't specifically want to be global
20110122 18:47:45< Aethaeryn> I can M-x replace-string later
20110122 18:47:51< Elvish_Pillager> well, you did ask me about "poor Lua practice"
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20110122 18:48:17< Aethaeryn> Elvish_Pillager: If I local them, the functions can still access them?
20110122 18:48:59< Aethaeryn> or do you mean local them and put them in the function(s) that use them?
20110122 18:49:01< Elvish_Pillager> oh, which ones?
20110122 18:49:09< Aethaeryn> everything at the top
20110122 18:49:11< Aethaeryn> the code == <<
20110122 18:49:31< Elvish_Pillager> if you put "local function blah()" then it'll be local to whatever scope it's in... in this case, the <<>>
20110122 18:49:43< Aethaeryn> ah
20110122 18:50:20< Aethaeryn> Okay, so time to go to another layer of WML to convert?
20110122 18:50:39< Elvish_Pillager> sure
20110122 18:51:06< Aethaeryn> should I directly convert all the [set_menu_item] stuff with WML tables or should I try something different?
20110122 18:51:47< Aethaeryn> well, essentially it's just the [show_if]
20110122 18:51:56< Elvish_Pillager> depends what you want to do
20110122 18:52:05< Elvish_Pillager> My own menu items are mostly just WML tables
20110122 18:52:30< Elvish_Pillager> you could also divide it up into more tables/variables/functions if you have them there
20110122 18:52:43< Elvish_Pillager> I don't remember if location filters and show_if things allow lua functions
20110122 18:52:45< Elvish_Pillager> let me check
20110122 18:53:47< Elvish_Pillager> yuck, looks like they can't
20110122 18:54:02 * Elvish_Pillager makes a note to ask silene to add the ability to do that
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20110122 18:55:25< Aethaeryn> Well, don't forget to remind me if 1.9 later on allows me to rewrite some of my WML table stuff in plain Lua
20110122 18:55:33< Aethaeryn> Elvish_Pillager: Imo, request a menu item directly through Lua
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20110122 18:55:42< Elvish_Pillager> hmm
20110122 18:55:55< Aethaeryn> set_menu_item is the essential UMC tag imo
20110122 18:56:09< Aethaeryn> without it you can't do anything really fancy
20110122 18:56:24< Aethaeryn> Most good MP content since 1.3 owes itself to [set_menu_item]
20110122 18:56:26< Elvish_Pillager> a menu item that takes two lua functions - one a boolean-valued thing to check whether to display it on the given hex, and the other what to execute when it...
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20110122 19:09:11< Aethaeryn> Elvish_Pillager: I have an idea about the [show_if] doing it in Lua
20110122 19:09:39< Aethaeryn> Elvish_Pillager: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com/TLyrj4i6
20110122 19:09:44< Aethaeryn> Obviously it doesn't run yet
20110122 19:09:52< Aethaeryn> Just wanted to type it out quickly to see if I'm going int he right direction
20110122 19:10:08< Aethaeryn> whoops, didn't paste in all three ends
20110122 19:10:23< Elvish_Pillager> why is it called main()?
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20110122 19:10:49< Aethaeryn> Because in my coding classes I'm told that the root function is to be called main()
20110122 19:10:54< Aethaeryn> and this is the root function in this event
20110122 19:11:01< Elvish_Pillager> uh let's see
20110122 19:11:02< Aethaeryn> as in, this is instead of making it base level
20110122 19:11:23< Elvish_Pillager> and "display_menu()" would be a hacky function that only does anything in this type of main() function?
20110122 19:11:31< Elvish_Pillager> Why not make it return a boolean value instead?
20110122 19:11:59< Aethaeryn> make what return bool?
20110122 19:12:07< Elvish_Pillager> uh, main()
20110122 19:12:25< Aethaeryn> main() never returns anything
20110122 19:12:29< Elvish_Pillager> since, isn't the only meaningful output of the function whether it calls display_menu() or not?
20110122 19:12:40< Aethaeryn> Well, no
20110122 19:12:43< Elvish_Pillager> and hence... conceptually, it's a function that outputs a boolean
20110122 19:12:46< Aethaeryn> Eventually there'll be the other menu items
20110122 19:12:48< Elvish_Pillager> No? What else can it do?
20110122 19:12:57< Elvish_Pillager> What, main() is supposed to contain all menu items?
20110122 19:13:02< Aethaeryn> This is only one [set_menu_item] in the [event]
20110122 19:13:04< Elvish_Pillager> that's inconsistent with the current structure
20110122 19:13:25< Aethaeryn> Well, it'll be a series of ifs
20110122 19:13:35< Elvish_Pillager> and would presumably make it harder to make eras and maps compatible
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20110122 19:15:47< Aethaeryn> This is neither an era nor a map
20110122 19:16:03< Aethaeryn> This is an MP campaign with its own "era", scenarios, etc.
20110122 19:16:05< Elvish_Pillager> perhaps we should start over from square one
20110122 19:16:07< Aethaeryn> Kind of like Wesband
20110122 19:16:09< Elvish_Pillager> I have no idea what you're suggesting
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20110122 20:03:13< Aethaeryn> Elvish_Pillager: okay, I cleaned it up a lot
20110122 20:03:27< Aethaeryn> And commented it
20110122 20:03:48< Aethaeryn> Normally my philosophy is that if I have to comment it the code can probably be simplified, but I'm using a few tricks here that may be a little hard to read
20110122 20:03:59< Aethaeryn> oh, a link would be good :P
20110122 20:04:00< Aethaeryn> http://wesnoth.pastebin.com/b5ydWF4B
20110122 20:04:03-!- hagabaka [~hagabaka@unaffiliated/hagabaka] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
20110122 20:04:25< Aethaeryn> Ignore the has_lich line. It's easier to check by side number
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20110122 20:05:35< Elvish_Pillager> Aethaeryn, you still haven't explained the basic concept of your suggestion
20110122 20:05:45< Aethaeryn> Basically, I don't need the [show_if]
20110122 20:05:48< Aethaeryn> This bypasses it
20110122 20:06:20< Aethaeryn> That cuts by more than half what I need to code of [set_menu_item] in WML tables
20110122 20:06:25< Elvish_Pillager> you're telling me the *purpose* of your suggestion, but I can't comment until I know what your suggestion *is*
20110122 20:06:43< Aethaeryn> oh
20110122 20:06:50< Aethaeryn> right-click summon of boss units in Master of Dungeons
20110122 20:07:08< Elvish_Pillager> you're clearly not using existing Lua
20110122 20:07:18< Aethaeryn> ?
20110122 20:07:21< Elvish_Pillager> hence, I surmise that you are proposing a change to Wesnoth's Lua
20110122 20:07:30< Aethaeryn> I'm not proposing a change
20110122 20:07:30< Elvish_Pillager> I want to know what this proposal is
20110122 20:07:31< Aethaeryn> it runs
20110122 20:07:50< Aethaeryn> I was just wondering if this would be preferred to doing the whole menu item in WML tables
20110122 20:08:04< Elvish_Pillager> It runs? You call main() somewhere?
20110122 20:08:08< Aethaeryn> yeah
20110122 20:08:14< Aethaeryn> Do you want to see the whole file?
20110122 20:08:28< Elvish_Pillager> sure
20110122 20:08:29< Aethaeryn> In maybe 15-30 minutes I'll check in the latest copy
20110122 20:08:34< Aethaeryn> but I can paste it now if you want
20110122 20:08:59< Elvish_Pillager> ...why would you call a function "main()" if you're calling it yourself? :/
20110122 20:09:16< Aethaeryn> Because main() is the base level function?
20110122 20:09:43< Aethaeryn> hmm
20110122 20:09:52< Aethaeryn> actually, wait until I finish coding the [set_menu_item] thing
20110122 20:09:54< Elvish_Pillager> ...but this isn't a base level function
20110122 20:09:55< Aethaeryn> I have a feeling I'll confuse you more
20110122 20:10:03< Elvish_Pillager> okay
20110122 20:14:32 * Elvish_Pillager has just coded an immensely powerful new EoHS debug mode in Lua
20110122 20:14:48< Elvish_Pillager> to replace the not-quite-as-powerful and slower WML one
20110122 20:18:08< Aethaeryn> If all goes according to plan I shall have just finished this part
20110122 20:18:15< Aethaeryn> Just have to test it
20110122 20:18:28< Aethaeryn> then maybe I'll understand what you're saying
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20110122 20:19:02< Aethaeryn> whoops, forgot to close my table
20110122 20:19:19< Aethaeryn> yeah, Python programming ruins every other programming language 
20110122 20:19:24< Aethaeryn> I keep forgetting to close stuff
20110122 20:20:49< Elvish_Pillager> hahahahaha yesss
20110122 20:21:15< Elvish_Pillager> the new debug mode allows me to issue a single command that surrounds every enemy unit one every side with yetis scaled to 200x200 pixels
20110122 20:22:23< Elvish_Pillager> the old debug mode could only do that with standard yetis. :P
20110122 20:22:31-!- Johannes13_ [~Johannes@unaffiliated/johannes13] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
20110122 20:23:01< Elvish_Pillager> and you can paste text into the input boxes, so I can compose a command in a text editor and fix it if I make a trivial error.
20110122 20:23:31< Aethaeryn> Elvish_Pillager: Scale up their HP too
20110122 20:23:37< Aethaeryn> increase their HP proportional to their size :P
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20110122 20:25:47< Elvish_Pillager> Aethaeryn, and their attacks, yadda yadda, and give them sceptres of fire
20110122 20:25:53< Elvish_Pillager> the debug mode is basically omnipotent
20110122 20:26:02< Elvish_Pillager> since you can insert any lua command
20110122 20:26:32< Elvish_Pillager> and I also made a somewhat convenient unit editor
20110122 20:29:14< Aethaeryn> Cool.
20110122 20:29:23< Aethaeryn> I'm probably going to be recreating some of what you already have :P
20110122 20:29:40< Aethaeryn> To make the DM a bit more flexible
20110122 20:30:06< Elvish_Pillager> well, you have different purposes than I do
20110122 20:30:21< Aethaeryn> Yeah
20110122 20:30:26< Aethaeryn> Which means I'll probably not borrow your code
20110122 20:30:38< Elvish_Pillager> My code wants the power to change any individual attribute, but not to make large swaths of fairly normal stuff
20110122 20:30:39< Aethaeryn> Different purposes + different coder = different design
20110122 20:30:42< Elvish_Pillager> while yours wants the other
20110122 20:31:10< Aethaeryn> And yeah, especially now that I have most of the core gameplay working (well, until my rewrite progressively broke bits) most of my features are going to be aimed toward faster editing
20110122 20:31:19< Elvish_Pillager> although, TBH, an unlimited-Lua debug mode can do almost anything you could want fairly easily
20110122 20:31:20< Aethaeryn> The less wait time on the DM's turn, the better the design
20110122 20:31:37< Aethaeryn> Oh, and I have it somewhat limited.
20110122 20:31:41< Elvish_Pillager> e.g. you can run a command once to create a function that creates a particular type of unit
20110122 20:31:42< Aethaeryn> Just to add some game mechanics to it
20110122 20:31:52< Elvish_Pillager> and then run another command to call that function in various places
20110122 20:31:56< Aethaeryn> e.g. the way I do unit creation ~= debug mode
20110122 20:32:02< Elvish_Pillager> and then all that's left is helper functions
20110122 20:34:04< Elvish_Pillager> the weakness of a simple DM command is that it only changes one hex at a time
20110122 20:34:18< Aethaeryn> do you do it differently from right-clicks?
20110122 20:34:40< Elvish_Pillager> My debug mode prompt is in a right-click command
20110122 20:34:56< Elvish_Pillager> but the main thing it does is just allows you to input Lua
20110122 20:35:18< Aethaeryn> ah, probably too powerful for my purposes
20110122 20:35:19< Elvish_Pillager> among other things, this can allow you to create lists of hexes and then apply arbitrary functions to all the hexes in the list
20110122 20:35:37< Elvish_Pillager> which covers you from the one-hex-at-a-time limitation
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20110122 20:52:32< Maedin> hi, aren't all of the recent multiplayer games (observers allowed) available on the Wesnoth website?
20110122 20:53:10< Maedin> I'm sure I've seen it before and downloaded replays to watch, but I can't remember how I got there
20110122 20:53:26< shadowmaster> replays.wesnoth.org
20110122 20:53:37< Maedin> it would be something simple ^^
20110122 20:53:46< Maedin> thank you!! :)
20110122 20:55:20< Maedin> actually, sorry, that's not what I was thinking of
20110122 20:55:43< shadowmaster> may want to be more specific then
20110122 20:55:48< Maedin> I was thinking of in-progress saved games
20110122 20:56:40< Maedin> I believe they're uploaded daily or so?
20110122 21:00:01< shadowmaster> the replays on r.w.o are uploaded as soon as the respective games are finished
20110122 21:01:46< Maedin> right
20110122 21:01:55< Maedin> it's not what I'm looking for
20110122 21:11:24< Maedin> found it :)  http://replays.wesnoth.org/1.8/
20110122 21:12:59< shadowmaster> I linked you to replays.wesnoth.org.
20110122 21:13:05-!- joo [~joo@unaffiliated/joo] has quit []
20110122 21:14:07< Maedin> I realise that now, but my browser redirected me to wesnoth.org/replays, which gives a selection of finished games for certain factions
20110122 21:14:29< Aethaeryn> Elvish_Pillager: how do I get $x1, $y1 in Lua?
20110122 21:14:38< Aethaeryn> Other than wesnoth.current.event_context
20110122 21:14:58< Maedin> I don't know why it didn't work when I tried it :-\
20110122 21:15:12< Aethaeryn> Elvish_Pillager: I think in the beginning of a menu item before the [command] part there's no location in the wesnoth.current.event_context
20110122 21:15:19< Maedin> but thank you, sorry to have thought you pointed me in the wrong place :)
20110122 21:15:21< Aethaeryn> Yet, you can use $x1, $y1 in the WML
20110122 21:16:43< Aethaeryn> Maedin: huh? wesnoth.org/replays redirects me to replays.wesnoth.org
20110122 21:17:00< Maedin> it took me to this: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/Replays
20110122 21:17:25< Aethaeryn> wow, that's ancient
20110122 21:17:38< Aethaeryn> 2007
20110122 21:17:38< Maedin> when I try replays.wesnoth.org.  I have to add /1.8 before it takes me to r.w.o
20110122 21:17:45< Maedin> Yes :p
20110122 21:17:55< Aethaeryn> Maedin: what browser?
20110122 21:18:00< Maedin> Firefox, the latest
20110122 21:18:08< Aethaeryn> Well, I'm using the latest Firefox 4 beta
20110122 21:18:17< Aethaeryn> perhaps you're not forming it like a url
20110122 21:18:20< shadowmaster> I'm using the latest Firefox 4 nightly
20110122 21:18:21< Aethaeryn> so it's I'm Feeling Lucky'ing it
20110122 21:18:30< Maedin> I see
20110122 21:18:35< Maedin> I didn't add http, so I guess that could be it
20110122 21:18:37< shadowmaster> "replays.wesnoth.org" also goes to http://replays.wesnoth.org, mind you
20110122 21:18:43< Maedin> hmmmm
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20110122 21:20:47< Maedin> okay, it seems to be working for me now
20110122 21:20:51< Aethaeryn> Elvish_Pillager: nevermind, I can import "x1" and "y1" apparently.
20110122 21:21:26< Maedin> you're never going to believe it took me there, but it did, twice ^^
20110122 21:22:40< Maedin> maybe now that I've visited r.w.o it's sorted itself out.
20110122 21:22:46< Maedin> Anyway, thanks! :)
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20110122 21:33:34< Aethaeryn> Elvish_Pillager: how do you do menu_items in your add-on? I can get x1 and y1 but they're at the start of the event, not at the start of the menu item. In other words, I can't filter the terrain at all.
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20110122 21:50:48< Aethaeryn> oh, I see what you did there in the code
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20110122 21:56:48< Xandal> Hey, is there a world map of the entire Wesnoth world?
20110122 21:59:28< Unnheulu> http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=31838&start=75
20110122 21:59:32< Unnheulu> Unnoffical
20110122 22:02:10< Aethaeryn> Unnheulu: That's hardly the whole world
20110122 22:02:17< Aethaeryn> it misses the south and the west
20110122 22:02:23< Unnheulu> Meh
20110122 22:02:27< Unnheulu> It's the most that exists
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20110122 22:14:38< un214> wesnoth's astronomy is not physically plausable
20110122 22:14:44< un214> so why should its geography be?
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20110122 22:19:40< Maedin> the lobby list jumps to the top, whenever someone joins or leaves
20110122 22:19:50< Maedin> does it do that to everyone or just me? :p
20110122 22:20:13< Maedin> it's quite annoying when you're trying to look for someone
20110122 22:24:22< Elvish_Pillager> Aethaeryn: sorry, was at lunch. You figured it out?
20110122 22:25:13< Aethaeryn> I figured out that there's no way to be more elegant
20110122 22:25:20< Aethaeryn> Than just doing the filter as it's done
20110122 22:25:29< Elvish_Pillager> yeah...
20110122 22:25:35< Aethaeryn> there's no way I could figure out how to import that "$x1" except as "$x1" in a WML table
20110122 22:25:44< Elvish_Pillager> since you can only use WML in the [show_if] and [filter_location], you have to do those things the WML way
20110122 22:25:44< Aethaeryn> in other words, it's no location or location filters their way
20110122 22:26:04< Aethaeryn> Right, it's a crap way of doing it imo
20110122 22:26:12< Elvish_Pillager> agreed
20110122 22:26:25< Elvish_Pillager> it would be unnecessary if conditionals and location filters supported lua
20110122 22:26:27< Aethaeryn> If there's one area where something like lua is a clear advantage, it's where you have to do lots of [not]s and [or]s and other hacky stuff
20110122 22:26:29< Elvish_Pillager> the way unit filters do
20110122 22:26:38< Aethaeryn> aka. the reason I hate WML in the first place is the thing I had to recreate in pretty much WML anyway
20110122 22:27:43< Aethaeryn> when you have a [show_if][not][or][have_unit] for something a real language can do in a line, that's design fail imo.
20110122 22:28:03< Elvish_Pillager> haha yeah
20110122 22:28:52< Aethaeryn> If no one else does it, I guess I'll have to get to it in a few months
20110122 22:28:55< hagabaka> but there's the concern that running user contributed content written in "real languages" can be dangerous
20110122 22:28:56< Aethaeryn> If no one else can code it, code it yourself
20110122 22:29:03< Elvish_Pillager> It does make conceptual sense for the menu items to be WML structured (because they're stored in the savefile...); however, not allowing conditionals to be specified as Lua functions is a flaw
20110122 22:29:08< Aethaeryn> hagabaka: Which is why they settled on Lua and not Python
20110122 22:29:13< Aethaeryn> python couldn't be properly sandboxed, Lua can
20110122 22:29:43< hagabaka> yeah, I mean that's why they didn't do it in the beginning
20110122 22:29:48 * Elvish_Pillager uses this opportunity to thumb their nose at Python yet again
20110122 22:30:10< hagabaka> I don't like lua either, it feels very limited compared to ruby/python
20110122 22:30:10< Aethaeryn> Still, there's no excuse to not have full filters working in Lua at this point in 1.9 development.
20110122 22:30:30< Elvish_Pillager> I haven't seen silene in a while...
20110122 22:30:33< Aethaeryn> They probably would've been the first thing I coded if I had to do the Lua thing.
20110122 22:30:46< Aethaeryn> Considering how much I hate the whole [not], [and], [or], etc. tags.
20110122 22:31:05< Aethaeryn> It's just not cool compared to the one word or symbol real languages use
20110122 22:31:17< Elvish_Pillager> I don't hate them... they actually make conceptual sense
20110122 22:31:18< Aethaeryn> Very verbose to do it the WML way
20110122 22:31:31< Aethaeryn> Yes, they make sense, but it's about as elegant as BASIC
20110122 22:32:11< Aethaeryn> hagabaka: Some language is better than no language.
20110122 22:32:41< Aethaeryn> At least Lua's minimalism makes it easier to learn, even if I'm wishing for the Python shortcuts of doing things sometimes.
20110122 22:32:57< Elvish_Pillager> hagabaka: what are you limited from doing in Lua?
20110122 22:33:28< Aethaeryn> Elvish_Pillager: Considering Lua's tables data structure is its only data structure, you eitherl ike or hate its way of doing things.
20110122 22:33:46< Elvish_Pillager> Aethaeryn: I suppose. Once I got used to it I found it extremely elegant though
20110122 22:34:09< Aethaeryn> I don't mind the tables most of the time, I only hate them when it's WML tables that show the weaknesses of WML, again.
20110122 22:34:13< Elvish_Pillager> well, yeah
20110122 22:34:19< Elvish_Pillager> WML suxxorz asszorz
20110122 22:34:23< Aethaeryn> I find myself wishing I could do those straight in Lua
20110122 22:34:34< hagabaka> well since you're sandboxed, you can't use external libraries, and the builtin library also doesn't have things like list.any(function), or does it?
20110122 22:34:53< Elvish_Pillager> what's list.any?
20110122 22:35:23< hagabaka> it would return whether any item in the list passed to the function returns true
20110122 22:35:39< Elvish_Pillager> that's trivial to write...
20110122 22:35:59< Elvish_Pillager> plus, there's no "list" data structure in Lua :)
20110122 22:36:03< hagabaka> sure, but it's not fun to have to write it again and again
20110122 22:36:06< Elvish_Pillager> eh?
20110122 22:36:07< un214> to breach the sandbox, put a 2 into the bitstream
20110122 22:36:13< Elvish_Pillager> If you're writing one add-on, you write it once
20110122 22:36:30< Elvish_Pillager> If you're writing many add-ons, you write your own file full of general-purpose functions and copy it to all your add-ons
20110122 22:37:00< Elvish_Pillager> You're going to want to do that anyway because you'll want to write your own functions to do a lot of Wesnoth-specific things
20110122 22:37:07< hagabaka> yeah...but copying code doesn't help with maintenance
20110122 22:37:20< Elvish_Pillager> true
20110122 22:37:36< hagabaka> it's just one of the commonly provided functions in functional programming languages, like people used to C++ would take for loops for granted
20110122 22:37:58< Elvish_Pillager> I see
20110122 22:38:39< Aethaeryn> well
20110122 22:38:46< Aethaeryn> The add-on system has a dependency system, right?
20110122 22:38:53< Elvish_Pillager> Aethaeryn: No.
20110122 22:38:55< Aethaeryn> Just publish a Lua add-on library
20110122 22:39:15< Elvish_Pillager> Aethaeryn: Unless it's changed, it has a system that's a very shoddy imitation of a dependency system.
20110122 22:39:18< hagabaka> but I'm not sure if it's actually possible to use libraries while sandboxed, maybe as long as the library don't break the sandbox it's fine? I've only written a little lua to configure the browser luakit
20110122 22:39:45< Aethaeryn> Well, if it's in an add-on...
20110122 22:39:58< Aethaeryn> It technically didn't break the sandbox
20110122 22:40:18< Elvish_Pillager> yeah, I will definitely do that once Wesnoth has a real add-on dependency system
20110122 22:41:33< Aethaeryn> Well...
20110122 22:41:39< Elvish_Pillager> IIRC shadowmaster was talking about that last time (but I can't remember whether shadowmaster was saying "yeah, I want to make a real dependency system sometime" or "what a waste of time, I am not doing that")
20110122 22:41:47< Aethaeryn> If you can code you might as well do it yourself.
20110122 22:42:05< Aethaeryn> Odds are you won't like the implementation even if it were made
20110122 22:42:22< Elvish_Pillager> Sure, but odds are they won't accept the implementation if I make it the way I like it.
20110122 22:42:24< Aethaeryn> And hurry up.
20110122 22:42:35< Aethaeryn> I'm going from 1 add-on in 1.8 to about 6-8 in 1.10
20110122 22:42:36< Elvish_Pillager> Plus, the Wesnoth code is pretty kludgy and hard to get into.
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20110122 22:43:25< hagabaka> I've wanted to write an external addon manager, similar to the campaign_client but doing more
20110122 22:44:20< hagabaka> for example, load the most recent save of an addon, download an addon from a source other than the official server, maybe a server for older versions and automatically trying wmlint on it
20110122 22:44:48< Elvish_Pillager> That's a good idea. Why not incorporate it into the main program instead of making it separate?
20110122 22:44:52< hagabaka> or using a version control repository as a source for an addon
20110122 22:45:18< hagabaka> I can't program in C++ and do these things
20110122 22:45:22< Elvish_Pillager> ah
20110122 22:45:41< Elvish_Pillager> Unfortunately, that wouldn't help my own issue at all
20110122 22:46:21< Elvish_Pillager> specifically, that I want to be able to make downloading one add-on automatically download another on which it depends, without allowing the user to break the system by only downloading the dependent add-on
20110122 22:46:33< Elvish_Pillager> That can't happen without a change to the core game
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20110122 22:47:36< Aethaeryn> Elvish_Pillager: Yeah, that's a good idea.
20110122 22:47:57< Aethaeryn> Thunderstone Trilogy can't run without Thunderstone Era for instance
20110122 22:48:08< hagabaka> that's another reason why I think features should be implemented as external programs as much as possible. even if someone makes patches to implement it all in C++, it takes a while before developers decide to merge them
20110122 22:49:32< hagabaka> it's still possible to have something like a magic comment, e.g. put "# dependencies: "Thunderstone Era"' in a file in Thunderstone Trilogy, and let the external program handle it
20110122 22:50:10< hagabaka> things like forum-url, svn, developer-homepage too
20110122 22:50:26< Elvish_Pillager> hagabaka: Only if every player ever installs the add-on with the external program.
20110122 22:50:32< hagabaka> yeah
20110122 22:50:49< hagabaka> but if it works and is useful, people will install it
20110122 22:51:14< Elvish_Pillager> you can't possibly get even 50% participation, can you?
20110122 22:53:21< hagabaka> most addons don't use dependencies, and only at most one level of dependency, so it's no big deal
20110122 22:53:49< Elvish_Pillager> the big deal is that most addons don't use dependences BECAUSE no good dependency system exists.
20110122 22:54:03< Elvish_Pillager> For instance, EoHS should *definitely* separate a lot of its functions into a Lua library
20110122 22:54:23< Elvish_Pillager> and the *only* reason it doesn't is because of how easily users would be able to accidentally download only EoHS and not the library add-on.
20110122 22:55:20< hagabaka> well, they currently show a message saying "this addon requires this", and they can just add a line of comment to have automatic depencency installs if the player uses this system, that's still better than waiting for things to get integrated in the game I think
20110122 22:56:07< Elvish_Pillager> It's not better for me at all, because I won't separate my add-ons until I don't lose users by doing so.
20110122 22:56:20< hagabaka> of course the said system isn't implemented either :p but I think it'll be mch easier to do in a scripting language than C++
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20110122 22:57:04< Elvish_Pillager> it's Tomsik!
20110122 22:58:08< Tomsik> hi
20110122 22:58:15< hagabaka> I don't develop addons myself, but i think a common lua library definitely sounds useful
20110122 22:58:19< Tomsik> Yes, it's me!
20110122 22:58:51< hagabaka> if you get other developers to use it, it'll be popular enough so most players will use it too, just like popular UMC eras
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20110122 23:11:55< Aethaeryn> Yeah, but it needs the system first.
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