--- Log opened Fri Jan 28 00:00:48 2011
20110128 00:06:08< Elvish_Pillager> I have something to show to Aethaeryn. If Aethaeryn shows up, can someone ping me?
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20110128 00:15:52< grzywacz> http://www.smog.pl/wideo/42053/najlepsza_scena_filmowa_jaka_w_zyciu_widziales_robot/
20110128 00:15:55< grzywacz> *GASP*
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20110128 16:49:40< happygrue> If anyone is not following the protests in Egypt already you should be.  Al Jazeera (English) has incredbile live footage: http://english.aljazeera.net/watch_now/
20110128 16:50:23< happygrue> nevermind, police are about to shut them down
20110128 16:50:39< happygrue> (in Cairo anyway)
20110128 16:56:27< Gambit> Oh wow. Tanks?
20110128 16:58:49< happygrue> yeah
20110128 16:59:08< happygrue> curfew starts and they are trying to shut down the videos of the tanks rolling around at the same time... uh oh?
20110128 17:01:42< Gambit> Aww I hope there's nobody in the personnel character.
20110128 17:01:45< Gambit> *carryer
20110128 17:01:53< Gambit> *carrier
20110128 17:01:53< Gambit> wow
20110128 17:03:03< happygrue> Murabak is due to speak soon
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20110128 17:06:41< Gambit> I also hope they all don't get crowded around one of the military vehicles they're lighting on fire and it explodes :\
20110128 17:07:02< Gambit> Though supposedly making vehicles explode is actually much harder than movies and TV portray so maybe that's not as big a risk.
20110128 17:09:29< happygrue> I'm rivited - is the army going to enforce the curfew or just refuse?
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20110128 17:29:21< Gambit> D: that sounds like tank fire
20110128 17:30:36< Tomsik> Talking about Egypt?
20110128 17:30:58< happygrue> yeah
20110128 17:31:11< happygrue> shooting has started, hard to say what and at whom
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20110128 17:56:58< Gambit> Amazing. They finished their prayers *before* reacting to the tear gas being fired at them.
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20110128 18:42:55< Elvish_Pillager> hey Aethaeryn
20110128 18:42:59< Aethaeryn> hey
20110128 18:43:06< Elvish_Pillager> I implemented the thing I was talking about
20110128 18:43:10< Elvish_Pillager> let me show you it
20110128 18:43:12< Aethaeryn> The other day I cleaned up my object a lot, btw.
20110128 18:43:28< Aethaeryn> I think I'm going to, in a week or so if I have the time, improve my Lua one more time.
20110128 18:43:33< Aethaeryn> Making it fully object-oriented
20110128 18:43:50< Aethaeryn> i.e. making all the loose functions part of an object.
20110128 18:43:56< Elvish_Pillager> http://pastebin.com/4pJzSQxJ
20110128 18:44:03< Aethaeryn> The benefits would appear to be minimal, but it will allow interaction between my add-ons.
20110128 18:44:18< Elvish_Pillager> the commented-out hack test at the bottom shows how you use it
20110128 18:44:26< Aethaeryn> E.g. if Era of Tyrants is being used to play Master of Dungeons, I'll be able to check for ~= nil on certain objects, and then have compatability code written.
20110128 18:44:58< Aethaeryn> ugh, you'r enot using objects :P
20110128 18:45:04< Aethaeryn> *you're
20110128 18:45:11< Elvish_Pillager> Why would I use an object for this?
20110128 18:45:16< Aethaeryn> Reusability
20110128 18:45:20< Elvish_Pillager> eh?
20110128 18:45:39< Elvish_Pillager> do you mean between add-ons?
20110128 18:45:50< Aethaeryn> i.e. if you eventually turn your stuff into a separate library, you can use inheritance (assuing Lua has it) to customize the core class to serve the varying needs of different add-ons.
20110128 18:46:13< Elvish_Pillager> I don't understand
20110128 18:46:19< Aethaeryn> Sorry, I had an OOP epiphany the other day.
20110128 18:46:20< Elvish_Pillager> why would this function be different between add-ons?
20110128 18:46:22< Aethaeryn> I now see objeccts everywhere.
20110128 18:46:35< Aethaeryn> *objects
20110128 18:46:36< Elvish_Pillager> This is a function. It functions exactly as a function. It shouldn't be anything else.
20110128 18:47:04< Elvish_Pillager> I don't know how I would do the same thing in an object way rather than a function way.
20110128 18:47:04< Aethaeryn> Elvish_Pillager: Here's why I used an object for my DungeonOpt...
20110128 18:47:19< Aethaeryn> So you can essentially make it a function, but without having to pass customizable arguments each time.
20110128 18:47:34< Elvish_Pillager> huh?
20110128 18:47:39< Aethaeryn> In other words, you just do { {"Elvish Pillager", 14, type}, {etc.} } 
20110128 18:47:48< Aethaeryn> instead of having to pass in "Please recruit a unit" etc. each time too
20110128 18:48:04< Aethaeryn> So if there's any chance the function is used differently in different places...
20110128 18:48:17< Aethaeryn> It's easier to declare an object from a class and in that declaration customize it.
20110128 18:48:33< Elvish_Pillager> but you can do that anyway with functions on the user end
20110128 18:48:36< Aethaeryn> In other words, reusability without having to rewrite.
20110128 18:48:44< Aethaeryn> I originally had that
20110128 18:48:51< Aethaeryn> A core function and then functions that interacted with that.
20110128 18:48:59< Aethaeryn> But I realized it was more readable the OOP way
20110128 18:49:18< Elvish_Pillager> for instance, for your thing, I'd have a function "show recruit menu" that takes, a an argument, a list of things you can recruit
20110128 18:49:27< Elvish_Pillager> *as an argument
20110128 18:49:41< Elvish_Pillager> and then that function would call show_message_with_options_possibly_as_lua_functions
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20110128 18:53:07< Aethaeryn> Elvish_Pillager: Right, but as an object you can set certain things as "default" fall-backs if it isn't mentioned in the function call.
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20110128 18:53:27< Elvish_Pillager> Aethaeryn: you can do that with a function just as well!
20110128 18:53:28< Aethaeryn> These defaults can be set to different things in different add-ons without actually changing the source code in the class at all.
20110128 18:53:47< Aethaeryn> Since you could do object:root_message = "foobar"
20110128 18:53:53< Elvish_Pillager> Either by having optional arguments, or more thoroughly, by passing a table as an argument
20110128 18:54:13< Elvish_Pillager> which is exactly what this function of mine does, because it takes a message table as an object anyway
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20110128 18:54:25< Aethaeryn> Ugh, fine.
20110128 18:54:34< Aethaeryn> Clearly we have different design philosophies.
20110128 18:54:57< Aethaeryn> But since I'm going to be using objects all semester, don't expect me to not see the class solution to any problem.
20110128 18:55:03< Elvish_Pillager> hehehe
20110128 18:55:20< Aethaeryn> My philosophy: I'm free to disagree with a class's teachings, but only once I'm finished with it.
20110128 18:55:38< Elvish_Pillager> hahaha
20110128 18:55:57< Aethaeryn> I'm sure your solution works fine.
20110128 18:56:17< Aethaeryn> But I spent all day yesterday making sure I understand OOP.
20110128 18:58:08< Aethaeryn> I'm probably going to study the tables section of Programming in Lua sometime in the coming month so I can do a proper implementation of OOP in all of my add-ons.
20110128 18:58:16< Aethaeryn> Well, the parts that use Lua.
20110128 18:58:39< Aethaeryn> I'm going to pay special attention to compatability code between EoT and MoD
20110128 18:59:39< Aethaeryn> Yes, I'm probably going to do some tricks in Lua that almost no one in the Wesnoth community will be able to understand, thus defeating the whole purpose of using objects for easy code reusability, but w/e
20110128 19:00:46< Aethaeryn> Elvish_Pillager: someone in #Lua pointed out that the implementation of WML tables is weak.
20110128 19:00:51< Elvish_Pillager> weak in what sense?
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20110128 19:01:13< Aethaeryn> Instead of { "message", { foo }} it should be {"message" = { foo } } if the intent is to implement [message]foo[/message] in Lua.
20110128 19:01:28< Tomsik> There's nothing to understand in OOP
20110128 19:01:34< Tomsik> Because OOP is bullocks
20110128 19:01:37< Elvish_Pillager> Aethaeryn, that doesn't work
20110128 19:01:44< Aethaeryn> The , instead of the = shows that the person who implemented WML tables is not in fact a standards-focused Lua programmer. :P
20110128 19:01:46< Elvish_Pillager> because the commands must be in order
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20110128 19:02:03< Aethaeryn> Elvish_Pillager: order cannot be maintained this way?
20110128 19:02:05< Elvish_Pillager> oh wait, let me see
20110128 19:02:09< Elvish_Pillager> I misunderstood
20110128 19:02:28< Elvish_Pillager> so... uh, why is one of those preferable to the other?
20110128 19:02:41< Aethaeryn> "asdf" = {"message" = { foo }, "blah" = { bar }}
20110128 19:02:53< Aethaeryn> for [asdf][message] foo [/message] [blah] bar [/blah] [/asdf]
20110128 19:03:03< Elvish_Pillager> Oh, so I didn't misunderstand
20110128 19:03:07< Aethaeryn> Elvish_Pillager: It more accurately reflects what is going on.
20110128 19:03:09< Elvish_Pillager> that doesn't preserve the order between message and blah
20110128 19:03:12< Aethaeryn> In other words, it makes it more readable
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20110128 19:05:46< Elvish_Pillager> Aethaeryn: the reason WML tag structure has a shitty representation in Lua is because WML tag structure is shitty. You can't really do any better with it.
20110128 19:06:40< Aethaeryn> table = { message = "foo", blah = "bar"}
20110128 19:06:48< Aethaeryn> for key, value in pairs(test) do print(key..", "..value) end
20110128 19:06:56< Aethaeryn> ^ the Lua interpreter does preserve the order here
20110128 19:06:59< Aethaeryn> is that a coincidence?
20110128 19:07:10-!- crimson_penguin [~ben@wesnoth/developer/crimsonpenguin] has quit [Quit: crimson_penguin]
20110128 19:07:10< Elvish_Pillager> yes
20110128 19:07:23< Elvish_Pillager> the order of pairs() is explicitly undefined
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20110128 19:07:49< Elvish_Pillager> and besides, that would prevent you from having two [message] tags in the same outer tag
20110128 19:08:00< Aethaeryn> so much for "the advantage of an interpreted language is that you can play around with an interactive interpreter to find out stuff about it"
20110128 19:08:56< Aethaeryn> I still think the implemenation of WML tables is confusing at best
20110128 19:09:10< Aethaeryn> since if you have [command][message][/message][/command] or something along those lines its weakness really shows
20110128 19:09:15< Elvish_Pillager> I'm not disagreeing with you on that!
20110128 19:09:25< Aethaeryn> i.e. a tag whose only contents is another tag
20110128 19:09:45< Aethaeryn> Imo, there needs to be *some* possible cleaner syntax available for 1.11
20110128 19:09:59< Aethaeryn> (I realize it's probably too late in 1.9 to do such a major add-on breaking move)
20110128 19:10:38< Elvish_Pillager> If you can't come up with a cleaner syntax, how can you call for that?
20110128 19:10:47< Elvish_Pillager> I'm going to see if I can improve it with Lua tricks
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20110128 19:26:22< Elvish_Pillager> Aethaeryn: it would provide technically the same information if it was { "command", blah, blah } instead of { "command", { blah, blah }}
20110128 19:26:27< Elvish_Pillager> would you prefer that?
20110128 19:28:02< Elvish_Pillager> It'd be less theoretically correct, but provide much more concise stuff - [command][/command] in WML is { "command", {}} in Lua and would be { "command" } in this
20110128 19:28:27< Aethaeryn> Elvish_Pillager: wouldn't it get confusing once you get a few deep?
20110128 19:28:36< Elvish_Pillager> Write up an example and see
20110128 19:28:39< Elvish_Pillager> but that would be like...
20110128 19:28:59< Elvish_Pillager> { "command", { "message", { "option", message = "whatever, this is an option"}}}
20110128 19:29:21< Aethaeryn> { "foo", this = tag, "message", speaker = something, message = something, "something else", etc.}
20110128 19:29:27< Aethaeryn> Where does the "something else" fall?
20110128 19:29:33< Aethaeryn> "message" or "foo" or root level?
20110128 19:29:39< Elvish_Pillager> huh?
20110128 19:29:43< Aethaeryn> in my example
20110128 19:29:52< Elvish_Pillager> I don't understand your example at all
20110128 19:30:00< Elvish_Pillager> it's not in a syntax I recognize
20110128 19:30:06< Aethaeryn> is it [foo] this = tag [message] speaker = something message = something [/message] [something else] [/something else] [/foo]?
20110128 19:30:15< Aethaeryn> Or is something else root level (not in [foo]) or under [message]?
20110128 19:30:28< Aethaeryn> 13:27:01 < Elvish_Pillager> Aethaeryn: it would provide technically the same information if it was { "command", blah, blah } instead of { "command", { blah, blah }}
20110128 19:30:33< Aethaeryn> Elvish_Pillager: It's in that syntax
20110128 19:30:48< Aethaeryn> oh
20110128 19:30:48< Aethaeryn> wait
20110128 19:30:53< Aethaeryn> Elvish_Pillager: I see
20110128 19:30:55< Elvish_Pillager> the WML you posted translates to { "foo", this = tag, { "message", speaker = something, message = something }, { "something else" }}
20110128 19:31:02< Aethaeryn> {tag = "command", blah, blah}
20110128 19:31:04< Aethaeryn> Elvish_Pillager: How about that?
20110128 19:31:11< Elvish_Pillager> hrm
20110128 19:31:18< Aethaeryn> That probably is the least ambiguous syntax you can get
20110128 19:31:25< Elvish_Pillager> you may be right about that
20110128 19:31:33< Aethaeryn> each {} will have to have a tag-key'd item
20110128 19:31:34< Elvish_Pillager> except that it takes up a name that can be used in WML
20110128 19:31:55< Aethaeryn> well, yeah, but you could use some key
20110128 19:31:59< Aethaeryn> that won't be used in WML
20110128 19:32:01< Aethaeryn> such as WML = "command"
20110128 19:32:07< Elvish_Pillager> WML can use any key
20110128 19:32:10< Aethaeryn> right
20110128 19:32:15< Aethaeryn> so rewrite WML to use any key but WML = :P
20110128 19:32:20< Elvish_Pillager> ha ha
20110128 19:32:27< Aethaeryn> i.e. reserved words
20110128 19:32:29< Aethaeryn> real languages have them
20110128 19:32:40< Elvish_Pillager> yeah, yeah
20110128 19:32:42< Aethaeryn> you can't use "and = foobar" in most languages
20110128 19:32:47< Elvish_Pillager> yeah...
20110128 19:32:53< Elvish_Pillager> and that's inconvenient for animations sometimes
20110128 19:32:59< Elvish_Pillager> because in Lua you can't write end = number
20110128 19:33:25< Elvish_Pillager> that is less concise though
20110128 19:33:38< Elvish_Pillager> because you'd have to write "WML" or "tag_name" or whatever all over the place
20110128 19:33:41< Aethaeryn> well, it makes up for it in clarity and lack of sub-brackets
20110128 19:34:02< Elvish_Pillager> I think having tag[1] always be the tag name is equally clear
20110128 19:34:17< Aethaeryn> Elvish_Pillager: so, perhaps we should do a feature request
20110128 19:34:18< Elvish_Pillager> you can make it confusing by putting it not at the beginning of the table, but that's just you making things confusing
20110128 19:34:24< Aethaeryn> there's probably not too many other people who use WML tables as much as we do
20110128 19:34:33< Aethaeryn> and if we both think the syntax is horrible, well, then...
20110128 19:34:50< Elvish_Pillager> I'm just not sure the syntax I proposed is that much less horrible
20110128 19:34:52< Aethaeryn> Either it gets rewritten or we can write an object that translates cleaner syntax into Wesnoth-readable code imo
20110128 19:35:08< Elvish_Pillager> I'm going to mess with it a bit more and see what I think
20110128 19:35:40< Aethaeryn> table:convert( {cleaner syntax} )
20110128 19:35:43< Aethaeryn> :P
20110128 19:35:50< Aethaeryn> It will reduce the amount of bugs
20110128 19:36:04< Elvish_Pillager> yeah, I could imagine doing that
20110128 19:36:10< Elvish_Pillager> here's one thing I like about the current syntax:
20110128 19:36:13< Aethaeryn> It took me about a whole day to realize the whole { command {{ lua, code = "" }}} thing
20110128 19:36:18< Aethaeryn> sorry, left out a comma
20110128 19:36:27< Elvish_Pillager> and quotes :P
20110128 19:36:32< Aethaeryn> It's hard to code in one line something I do in multiple lines every other time
20110128 19:36:37< Elvish_Pillager> ... the inner table actually does represent something meaningful
20110128 19:36:50< Elvish_Pillager> because if you use [set_variables] then the variable contents are like the inner tag
20110128 19:36:53< Elvish_Pillager> I mean inner table
20110128 19:37:00< Aethaeryn> Elvish_Pillager: right, but it took me a day to realize that all my bugs were coming from one { when it's {{ or two {{ when it's one {
20110128 19:37:10< Aethaeryn> in other words, it is the hardest part to understand about WML tables
20110128 19:37:33< Elvish_Pillager> Aethaeryn: I wrote a bunch of bugs like that at first, but now I don't write bugs like that at all
20110128 19:37:47< Elvish_Pillager> which isn't an argument in favor of the current syntax...
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20110128 19:38:48< Aethaeryn> Elvish_Pillager: I guess my point is that it raises the learning curve needlessly
20110128 19:38:58< Aethaeryn> if there *is* a cleaner way to do WML tables
20110128 19:39:23< Aethaeryn> having a {{ }} is a hideous abuse of Lua tables imo
20110128 19:39:24< Elvish_Pillager> What would it be like for you if you simply write a lua function wml_tag(name, contents) return { name, contents } end ?
20110128 19:39:28< Aethaeryn> Perhaps it's necessary but let's hope it's not
20110128 19:39:38< Elvish_Pillager> then it'd be ({}) instead of {{}} and be less confusing
20110128 19:40:23< Aethaeryn> why not wml_tag()?
20110128 19:40:31< Aethaeryn> The first argument is name, all arguments after that are comments
20110128 19:40:39< Elvish_Pillager> huh?
20110128 19:40:43< Aethaeryn> *contents
20110128 19:40:47< Aethaeryn> sorry, distracted
20110128 19:41:10< Elvish_Pillager> well, you can't put contents in argument format, but you could have it be wml_tag{} with the syntax we discussed
20110128 19:41:11< Aethaeryn> In other words instead of wml_tag(name, {contents}), just wml_tag(name, contents)
20110128 19:41:18< Aethaeryn> yeah
20110128 19:41:32< Aethaeryn> wml_tag{name, contents}
20110128 19:41:52< Aethaeryn> imo, experiment, see if it improves readability
20110128 19:41:57< Aethaeryn> and if it does, request WML tables be rewritten
20110128 19:42:06< Elvish_Pillager> yeah, and then it's "return { arg[1], arg with arg[1] removed }"
20110128 19:42:13< Aethaeryn> I find it hard to believe that there'd be more than 5 Lua power-users
20110128 19:42:32< Elvish_Pillager> you have a point
20110128 19:42:32< Aethaeryn> So we'd represent a plurality if not a majority, especially if we convince another.
20110128 19:42:37< Elvish_Pillager> silene needs to be in this discussion
20110128 19:42:40< Elvish_Pillager> and I haven't seen silene in ages
20110128 19:42:46< Aethaeryn> he's active just not on IRC
20110128 19:42:51< Aethaeryn> he fixed a Lua bug hours after I submitted it
20110128 19:42:54< Aethaeryn> I got the email
20110128 19:42:54< Elvish_Pillager> he used to be active in IRC
20110128 19:42:57< Aethaeryn> So he reads the tracker
20110128 19:43:06< Elvish_Pillager> so... know any other Lua power users?
20110128 19:43:08< Aethaeryn> we can submit a FR I guess if we really have to
20110128 19:44:08< Elvish_Pillager> heck, this syntax is an incredibly simple change
20110128 19:44:24< Elvish_Pillager> all tags can be converted by no more effort than deleting the interior brackets
20110128 19:44:51< Elvish_Pillager> (and writing wml_tag in front of them, of course, if it isn't changed in the engine)
20110128 19:46:12< Aethaeryn> so wml_tag{name, contents} will return {name, {contents}}?
20110128 19:46:18< Elvish_Pillager> exactly
20110128 19:46:25< Elvish_Pillager> I've written it already
20110128 19:46:25< Aethaeryn> actually just make it either wml or tag
20110128 19:46:34< Aethaeryn> make it as short as possible so you're not biased
20110128 19:46:43< Aethaeryn> as in subconsciously thinking it's more complex
20110128 19:46:58< Elvish_Pillager> http://pastebin.com/uUiLdR4e
20110128 19:47:19< Elvish_Pillager> but "wml_tag" is the clearest name :(
20110128 19:47:23< Elvish_Pillager> I guess you're write...
20110128 19:47:35< Elvish_Pillager> I guess everything in WML is a tag, so "wml" is a better name than "tag"
20110128 19:47:58< Aethaeryn> it's the clearest, but if it's more than one word you're more likely to get subconsciously annoyed, thus poisining your opinion
20110128 19:48:02< Elvish_Pillager> but "tag" is easier to type
20110128 19:48:28< Elvish_Pillager> I guess "tag" is the best name
20110128 19:48:33< Elvish_Pillager> as long as it's not already used for something
20110128 19:49:07< Elvish_Pillager> hmm... there's a problem with this
20110128 19:49:19< Elvish_Pillager> Right now, ipairs(tag contents) makes a lot of sense
20110128 19:49:26< Elvish_Pillager> in the syntax we're proposing, it doesn't
20110128 19:49:35< Elvish_Pillager> this makes your "some_key = the name of the tag" make more sense
20110128 19:49:38< Aethaeryn> Elvish_Pillager: don't you need to return {tagname, {arg}}?
20110128 19:49:44< Elvish_Pillager> Aethaeryn, no
20110128 19:49:50< Elvish_Pillager> because arg is already a table
20110128 19:49:51< Aethaeryn> oh
20110128 19:49:54< Aethaeryn> arg is already a table
20110128 19:49:55< Aethaeryn> right
20110128 19:50:06< Aethaeryn> this is why my programming classes make me write a function header comment
20110128 19:50:12< Aethaeryn> i.e. so you know what data type a function is expecting
20110128 19:50:25< Elvish_Pillager> right
20110128 19:50:31< Aethaeryn> (obviously, this is for something like Python and not like Java where types are declared)
20110128 19:50:38< Aethaeryn> (though, who knows, Java is this coming semester)
20110128 19:50:42< Elvish_Pillager> everything I'm writing in properly_abstracted_utils.cfg should at least have an example of usage above it
20110128 19:51:43< Elvish_Pillager> ...but I hate reserved words with a flaming passion
20110128 19:52:44< Aethaeryn> the problem isn't that Lua has reserved words
20110128 19:52:56< Aethaeryn> it's that WML is still a first-class citizen and Lua a second-class citizen.
20110128 19:53:15< Aethaeryn> Ideally by 1.11 or 1.13 most of the complexity (i.e. not simple scenario definitions) should be in Lua
20110128 19:53:21< Gambit> happygrue: If the presidential guard is on the streets, then who's guarding the president? Eh? Wink wink. (No I'm kidding. This needs to stay peaceful.)
20110128 19:53:21< Elvish_Pillager> but that's always going to be true! Wesnoth's data is in WML!
20110128 19:53:32< Elvish_Pillager> Gambit: :)
20110128 19:54:02< Aethaeryn> Elvish_Pillager: no, the problem is that the vast majority of developers never try to do any real programming in WML, thus not realizing the mess add-on developers have to deal with.
20110128 19:54:13< Gambit> I'm so mad at my own government (America) for their weak response. We should be angry!
20110128 19:54:22< Aethaeryn> At most complexity, WML is designed for an MP campaign with a few special pre-canned events.
20110128 19:54:27< Aethaeryn> Not something like an RPG.
20110128 19:54:45< Aethaeryn> The closer you approach an RPG, the more painful WML is :P
20110128 19:54:48< Elvish_Pillager> Aethaeryn: Right. But I think we have a pretty good compromise right now except for the few things where Lua is required to use WML for complex stuff.
20110128 19:55:07< Elvish_Pillager> Like location filters, menu items, messages with options, etc.
20110128 19:55:19< Gambit> Aethaeryn: duh. There's an asymptote at WML=RPG
20110128 19:55:56< Aethaeryn> Elvish_Pillager: I find the complex WML stuff the most painful parts of WML, i.e. the stuff that drove me to Lua in the first place.
20110128 19:56:02< Aethaeryn> The filters, the menus, the options, etc.
20110128 19:56:17< Elvish_Pillager> Right. But there'
20110128 19:56:27< Elvish_Pillager> is no, in principle, need for those to be in WML.
20110128 19:56:29< Aethaeryn> You either liberally abuse macros, which is discouraged by every dev, or you use function-based Lua programming.
20110128 19:56:42< Elvish_Pillager> So if you get them out of WML, do you really need WML syntax to be better?
20110128 19:56:55< Tomsik> Gambit: it's not that simple
20110128 19:56:56< Aethaeryn> My point is that WML should be reserved for the simple things that it does right.
20110128 19:57:02< Aethaeryn> Unit definitions, campaign/scenario definitions, etc.
20110128 19:57:07< Aethaeryn> Every event should be Lua.
20110128 19:57:09< Elvish_Pillager> the tag() function will help you, but all of our proposed actually changes to the syntax have problems.
20110128 19:57:12< Tomsik> I heard that the regime was mostly pro-west 
20110128 19:57:14< Aethaeryn> Then WML is maintainable
20110128 19:57:23< Elvish_Pillager> Aethaeryn: it sounds like we're agreeing
20110128 19:57:25< Tomsik> and some angry religious folk is the major force of opposition
20110128 19:57:25< Gambit> Tomsik: Yes I know. They want to keep good relations with Mubarak because he's a friendly dictator who they can influence.
20110128 19:57:31< Tomsik> so this might turn into second iran
20110128 19:57:44< Elvish_Pillager> Aethaeryn: another point of difficulty is unit modifications
20110128 19:57:55< Aethaeryn> Gambit: Yes, the problem is that in certain countries, if you give them what the people want (i.e. true democratic representation) you're going to wind up with a heavily anti-Israel, heavily anti-US regime.
20110128 19:57:59< Aethaeryn> Which is good for no one.
20110128 19:58:05< Aethaeryn> Not even Egypt
20110128 19:58:12< Aethaeryn> Their tourism revenues would plunge and that's one of their main industries.
20110128 19:58:21< Aethaeryn> Americans are the ones with deep tourist pockets for places like Egypt.
20110128 19:58:28< Tomsik> No way
20110128 19:58:42< Tomsik> Aethaeryn: half the Europe flies to Egypt for vacations
20110128 19:58:53< Tomsik> It's cheap as heck and warm
20110128 19:58:58< Aethaeryn> and you think an anti-American government is pro-liberal-Europe?
20110128 19:59:06< Gambit> Well no wonder they hate us afterwards if we back their oppressors.
20110128 19:59:10< Aethaeryn> They can't tell the difference between a Scandanavian and an American.
20110128 19:59:20< Aethaeryn> Someone who is Swedish looks more American-stereotype than the typical American.
20110128 19:59:23< Tomsik> <Aethaeryn> Americans are the ones with deep tourist pockets for places like Egypt.
20110128 19:59:26< Tomsik> that was about that
20110128 19:59:43< Aethaeryn> Tomsik: Well, America is the third most populuous country in the world.
20110128 19:59:54< Tomsik> I thought the stereotypical american was fat and sweds are not?
20110128 20:00:07< Tomsik> Aethaeryn: Well, 300M people, compared to 500 of EU alone
20110128 20:00:16< Elvish_Pillager> Yup. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countries_by_population
20110128 20:00:25< Tomsik> Maybe EU is not a country, but it has a lot of people
20110128 20:00:42< Aethaeryn> Tomsik: when the EU becomes a country without a unifying language/economy/culture, please revize my statement.
20110128 20:00:51< Elvish_Pillager> Ha ha ha ha what
20110128 20:01:00< Tomsik> It's same for tourism reasons, really
20110128 20:01:27< Elvish_Pillager> that's a disingenuous argument, unless you believe that the US has a unifying language, economy, and culture
20110128 20:01:37< Aethaeryn> Tomsik: Okay, let's assume it's 300/800 million of Westerners are American, or 3/8
20110128 20:01:45< Aethaeryn> Let's even assume there's a European skew due to closer travel times.
20110128 20:02:11< Aethaeryn> When 1/3 of your tourists are immediately despised by the new regime and at least an additional 1/3 are mistaken for Americans/Brits by people who think all white people look alike...
20110128 20:02:22< Aethaeryn> Then, you have a big problem with your tourism industry
20110128 20:02:32< Aethaeryn> That's an economic disaster, considering that Western investment in other sectors would be hit too
20110128 20:02:38< Aethaeryn> That's probably 30-40% of your economy in crisis.
20110128 20:02:40-!- Gallaecio [~quassel@29.138.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20110128 20:02:42< Tomsik> Aethaeryn: no, I'm not talking about economic disaster for Egypt
20110128 20:03:01< Tomsik> I'm talking about you talking about americans weed deep pockets :p
20110128 20:03:06< Tomsik> with*
20110128 20:03:25< Aethaeryn> I think Egypt is probably a really major tourist destination in the Mediterranean.
20110128 20:03:33< Aethaeryn> Based on cultural stereotypes.
20110128 20:03:37< Gambit> Our pockets are deep enough for weed though.
20110128 20:03:42< Aethaeryn> Probably up there with all the Christians going to Israel
20110128 20:03:50< Aethaeryn> Probably above
20110128 20:03:54< Elvish_Pillager> Aethaeryn, I'm not sure why you think "a heavily anti-Israel, heavily anti-US regime" is a "problem"
20110128 20:04:22< Gambit> Elvish_Pillager: Because then the US will be inclined to mess with that.
20110128 20:04:26< Aethaeryn> Elvish_Pillager: It's a problem if 1/4 to 1/3 of their economy relies on tourists, mostly from Western countries, and an additional 1/4 to 1/3 is probably heavily dependent on EU/American investments.
20110128 20:04:39< Gambit> And our fiddling doesn't turn out well.
20110128 20:04:50< Aethaeryn> When over half of your economy is at risk in a regime change, that probably will lead to increased radicalization, not increased moderation.
20110128 20:05:03< Aethaeryn> And yes, the US will probably not let this happen
20110128 20:05:09< Elvish_Pillager> that's the US's fault then
20110128 20:05:09< Aethaeryn> Since fundies in Egypt probably will mean another war with Israel
20110128 20:05:17< Aethaeryn> And Israel has nukes now, right?
20110128 20:05:23< Tomsik> I'm not sure what's wrong with being anti-Israel
20110128 20:05:29< Aethaeryn> If Israel ever were to be losing a war, I doubt they would *not* use their nukes
20110128 20:05:33< Tomsik> I mean, they're not pretty, nice guys
20110128 20:05:44< Gambit> Hopefully the people won't let another theocratic dictator get into the presidential seat.
20110128 20:05:52< Aethaeryn> Honestly, I wouldn't put it past Israel to nuke Mecca if the Muslims ever united and were beating them in a war (though odds are a stalemate at best)
20110128 20:06:10< Aethaeryn> (and an Israeli win probably likely if they were defensive)
20110128 20:06:21< Aethaeryn> And this would really start shit.
20110128 20:06:21< Elvish_Pillager> really? you think Israel is that suicidal?
20110128 20:06:35< Aethaeryn> Elvish_Pillager: I'm saying, if Israel was *losing* the war they'd use all resources at their disposal.
20110128 20:06:38< Aethaeryn> Including nuclear weapons.
20110128 20:06:47< Aethaeryn> This is a big if considering their past military history.
20110128 20:06:58< Elvish_Pillager> Use all the resources at their disposal to make sure that they are destroyed completely instead of just losing?
20110128 20:07:00< Aethaeryn> But still, we don't want to destabilize the region that gives us oil.
20110128 20:07:16< Aethaeryn> Elvish_Pillager: If no Muslim nation has nukes and Israel has nukes, that would turn a loss into a win.
20110128 20:07:20< Aethaeryn> Nuking all their major cities.
20110128 20:07:38< Aethaeryn> Strategically speaking, you can't compete with having all your civilian population decimated.
20110128 20:07:44< Aethaeryn> And industrial capacity.
20110128 20:07:54< Aethaeryn> And I wouldn't put it past Israel if they feel they have no other option but the nuclear option.
20110128 20:08:05< Aethaeryn> This is similarly why India-Pakistan is a delicate issue.
20110128 20:08:32< Aethaeryn> They hate each other enough that a nuclear exchange is possible.
20110128 20:08:52< Aethaeryn> The last thing you want is to destablize the Muslim world.
20110128 20:09:37< Aethaeryn> Sure, spreading democracy is nice lovely rhetoric from the liberal Western countries, but if democratization means letting anti-American and anti-Israel politicians in power in the Middle East, that's frankly dangerous from a US perspective.
20110128 20:09:41< Tomsik> Maybe it's the thing you want most Aethaeryn 
20110128 20:09:44< Aethaeryn> Again, I'm arguing a US perspective here.
20110128 20:09:55< Aethaeryn> I.e. a reason why the US might intervene.
20110128 20:09:57< Elvish_Pillager> I'm not interested in your US perspective
20110128 20:09:59< Tomsik> If they keep fighting themselves in tribal conflicts they'll leave us alone :p
20110128 20:10:03< Aethaeryn> It doesn't need to make total rational sense.
20110128 20:10:09< Aethaeryn> It just needs to persuade politicians.
20110128 20:10:24< Aethaeryn> Tomsik: right, unfortunately, that means no oil
20110128 20:10:29< Aethaeryn> Or tripling the price of oil at least.
20110128 20:10:48< Tomsik> Oil is shit anyway
20110128 20:10:51< Aethaeryn> You can leave the Middle East alone once we're all driving electric-only cars which are being charged by wind/solar plants.
20110128 20:11:11< Aethaeryn> Until then, it'd be political suicide to have oil prices triple or quadruple on your watch.
20110128 20:11:12< Gambit> Maybe what they need is something simple.
20110128 20:11:16< Gambit> Like a really good peace anthem.
20110128 20:11:17< Aethaeryn> Look at Carter.
20110128 20:11:18< Tomsik> The oil-creating tech would appear instantly if there was a shortage
20110128 20:11:23< Elvish_Pillager> Gambit: :(
20110128 20:11:24< Aethaeryn> Oil killed Carter's political chances.
20110128 20:11:39< Aethaeryn> Do you want Obama to be a one-term president like Carter?
20110128 20:11:42< Tomsik> There's bacteria and chemicals and all different kinds of stuff that turn garbage into oil
20110128 20:11:46< Elvish_Pillager> Aethaeryn: YES
20110128 20:11:55< Gambit> Elvish_Pillager: Not a Tim Minchin fan?
20110128 20:11:58< Aethaeryn> Well, Obama doesn't want it.
20110128 20:11:59< Elvish_Pillager> Gambit: indeed
20110128 20:12:06< Gambit> Awww :(
20110128 20:12:08< Gambit> Why not?
20110128 20:12:14< Elvish_Pillager> Gambit: Tim Minchin does some cool things, and some... horribly problematic things
20110128 20:12:19< Gambit> Ha
20110128 20:12:32< Aethaeryn> Tomsik: The problem with oil isn't that it's only found in the Middle East, but that it's found cheapest in the Middle East.
20110128 20:12:49< Aethaeryn> Peak oil is a myth, prices will just go up as places where oil extraction is more expensive will be suddenly profitable.
20110128 20:13:06< Aethaeryn> In other words, if it costs $10 to make oil and prices are $15, you suddenly can make oil there and still have a profit
20110128 20:13:09< Aethaeryn> But if prices are $4 you can't
20110128 20:13:26< Aethaeryn> Tomsik: So yeah, the problem is entirely one of price.
20110128 20:13:44< Tomsik> You an synthetize oil
20110128 20:13:53< Tomsik> or use methanol or methane
20110128 20:13:54< Aethaeryn> Right, but the reason they're not doing it is that it's too pricey.
20110128 20:13:56< Tomsik> or anything
20110128 20:14:02< Aethaeryn> They *will* do it when prices go high enough.
20110128 20:14:13< Aethaeryn> Though an alternative to oil prices rising is technology/production costs lowering.
20110128 20:14:23< Tomsik> no, they're not doing this because they're getting paid by oil gigants
20110128 20:14:24< Aethaeryn> So you don't *need* high oil prices to provide alternatives, it's just the most likely scenario atm.
20110128 20:14:35< Tomsik> There was this patent bought by OPEC countries
20110128 20:14:38< Aethaeryn> Tomsik: the oil giants are losing their influence.
20110128 20:15:06< Aethaeryn> Toyota, Nissan, Chevy... even an entire startup company called Tesla
20110128 20:15:12< Aethaeryn> Everything's progressing toward electric now.
20110128 20:15:30< Elvish_Pillager> yeah
20110128 20:15:37< Aethaeryn> It might take 10-20 years to fully replace gas-based cars and be entirely cheaper than gas-based alternatives to the point where no one will ever want a gas-based car.
20110128 20:15:40< Aethaeryn> But it'll happen eventually.
20110128 20:16:00< Elvish_Pillager> and electricity storage and sustainable generation are constantly getting more efficient
20110128 20:16:01< Aethaeryn> Toyota is going to bring back the entirely-electric version of the Rav4 that has a bit of a cult following.
20110128 20:16:13< Aethaeryn> the Rav 4 EV
20110128 20:16:36< Aethaeryn> And honestly, I would love an electric SUV. The main disadvantage to an SUV is the worse gas mileage.
20110128 20:16:53< Aethaeryn> At least, if you drive within speed limits and so you don't really care about having a fancy car.
20110128 20:16:59< Aethaeryn> Besides, electric cars have amazing acceleration
20110128 20:17:15< Aethaeryn> So assuming top speed doesn't matter outside of the Midwest, the improved acceleration is a major performance *advantage*
20110128 20:17:15< Tomsik> SUVs are the root of all evil
20110128 20:18:59< Aethaeryn> In addition, Tesla has proven that electric *can* be sexy.
20110128 20:19:17< Tomsik> The problem about electric cars is that they need a few hours to charge
20110128 20:19:30< Gambit> Right because we drive them 24/7
20110128 20:19:34< Gambit> So that's a big issue.
20110128 20:19:49< Aethaeryn> Tomsik: The thing about electric cars is that they're rather new tech (at least, the kind we have today)
20110128 20:19:53< Elvish_Pillager> Tomsik: yeah... energy storage is as much of an issue as generation
20110128 20:20:00< Aethaeryn> Prices will go down and quality will go up over time as people keep buying them.
20110128 20:20:14< Aethaeryn> Look at phones in 2000 vs. 2005 vs. 2007 vs. now.
20110128 20:20:18< Tomsik> Aethaeryn: batteries get better _very_ slowly
20110128 20:20:26< Elvish_Pillager> Tomsik: Batteries? Hoomph!
20110128 20:20:27< Aethaeryn> 10 years can provide major improvements when the industry is profitable.
20110128 20:20:43< Tomsik> I'd rather use methanol
20110128 20:20:44 * Elvish_Pillager touts supercapacitors
20110128 20:20:47< Aethaeryn> Tomsik: There are experimental batteries
20110128 20:20:47< Tomsik> as a fuel
20110128 20:20:53< Gambit> Tomsik: Yeah but technology development is accelerating. So as they get better the rate at which they get better will get better. :\
20110128 20:21:10< Tomsik> Gambit: think about rockets
20110128 20:21:18< Aethaeryn> Tomsik: Biofuels are terrible. They only benefit the big corporate farmers that have big influence in government.
20110128 20:21:22< Tomsik> They're not much better than the first ones that were created
20110128 20:21:33< Tomsik> even with all the hype about them
20110128 20:21:33< Aethaeryn> While actually raising food prices by increasing the demand for crops.
20110128 20:21:35< Gambit> Because we haven't been funding research.
20110128 20:21:44< Tomsik> Gambit: NASA? Army?
20110128 20:21:58< Aethaeryn> So really, biofuels might be worse off than oil imo.
20110128 20:21:59< Tomsik> It's just that you hit the roof sometime
20110128 20:22:03< Aethaeryn> Because it directly impacts the food supply.
20110128 20:22:19< Aethaeryn> It'll raise the price of beef, too.
20110128 20:22:19< Tomsik> Aethaeryn: it need not be food-like crops 
20110128 20:22:26< Tomsik> it can be anything, really
20110128 20:22:27< Aethaeryn> Tomsik: Opportunity cost, still.
20110128 20:22:29< Gambit> NASA has been massively cut, and the Army doesn't care about pure research for research's sake.
20110128 20:22:42< Tomsik> Gambit: In last 50 years
20110128 20:22:55< Aethaeryn> Tomsik: Farmers will be incentivized to farm biofuels instead of food with thier land, decreasing the supply of food, and thus raising the price anyway.
20110128 20:22:58< Aethaeryn> Price still goes up.
20110128 20:22:59< Tomsik> From beore computer existed there were rockets and they didn't get better
20110128 20:23:01< Aethaeryn> This is Econ 101 stuff.
20110128 20:23:26< Gambit> Okay I rebut your rockets with vacuum tubes.
20110128 20:23:27< Aethaeryn> Please, electric is the car tech we need. Don't get distracted by creating a *new* fuel cartel that has the potential to be worse than the oil one.
20110128 20:23:32< Tomsik> Aethaeryn: You can put algae in and get fuel
20110128 20:23:51< Elvish_Pillager> Tomsik: And what about electricity? You can put nothing whatsoever in and get fuel!
20110128 20:23:57< Aethaeryn> Tomsik: Some big corporation will *still* control the fuel supply.
20110128 20:24:00< Tomsik> Elvish_Pillager: the same!
20110128 20:24:05< Aethaeryn> And buy up almost every competitor thus giving you about 5-7 big companies.
20110128 20:24:19< Aethaeryn> As long as it requires something, you will have a fuel cartel.
20110128 20:24:30< Tomsik> Aethaeryn: well, power plants sure use SOMETHING
20110128 20:24:35< Elvish_Pillager> yeah, the sun
20110128 20:24:39< Aethaeryn> The big energy companies will use their massive piles of cash to buy their way into whatever alternative fuel source, and things remain exactly the same.
20110128 20:24:49< Tomsik> Elvish_Pillager: photovoltaic cells need materials to be constructed
20110128 20:24:57< Aethaeryn> If everyone uses electric cars, everything then goes on the power companies.
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20110128 20:25:09< Aethaeryn> It is then up to the government, and not the individual, to make sure the energy comes from clean sources.
20110128 20:25:20< Gambit> Tomsik: We're getting to the point that you can print those cheaply on paper.
20110128 20:25:29< Elvish_Pillager> Aethaeryn: not if we make cheap, localalizeble stuffs
20110128 20:25:39< Elvish_Pillager> so that you can buy your own solar panels and generate your own energy
20110128 20:25:48< Tomsik> Gambit: with what efficiency, 3%?
20110128 20:26:02< Tomsik> And what they are made of? Plastic, which is made of oil.
20110128 20:26:39< Gambit> While I'm not sure what's in the ink, I know that they are literally printed on normal, thick, paper.
20110128 20:27:22< Aethaeryn> Elvish_Pillager: that's even better
20110128 20:27:45< Tomsik> There is always a resource you need
20110128 20:27:48< Aethaeryn> Generate your own energy with roof solar panels, have the existing power infrastructure provide a fallback if you don't generate enough, and power your car through your home garage when you're sleeping.
20110128 20:27:58< Aethaeryn> *That* is energy independence.
20110128 20:28:02< Elvish_Pillager> yeah
20110128 20:28:08< Aethaeryn> Anything else is just an intermediate step
20110128 20:28:09< Tomsik> Aethaeryn: car eats a lot of energy
20110128 20:28:12< Elvish_Pillager> and have your own power storage so that you don't have to rely on anyone else at night
20110128 20:28:13< Gambit> Tomsik: but you don't need constant resources like oil
20110128 20:28:21< Tomsik> not something you can get from poor-quality power cells
20110128 20:28:23< Gambit> you just need to produce the solar cells and windmills and then you're good to go
20110128 20:28:27< Aethaeryn> Tomsik: right, and it'd still be cheaper than oil.
20110128 20:28:34< Elvish_Pillager> Gambit: well, you also need to maintain them
20110128 20:28:36< Aethaeryn> in the long run, when tech goes down due to economics of scale
20110128 20:28:41< Tomsik> Windmills?
20110128 20:28:47< Tomsik> Don't you like need area for them
20110128 20:28:49< Tomsik> and wind?
20110128 20:28:54< Aethaeryn> in other words, when tech improves and gets cheaper naturally over time, as well as with the massive spike in capital by new sales...
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20110128 20:29:04< Tomsik> Which will go *poof* if everyone uses them?
20110128 20:29:09< Aethaeryn> Tomsik: look at the United States of America.
20110128 20:29:15< Aethaeryn> It could become an energy giant by windmills
20110128 20:29:19< Gambit> We've got plenty of mountain tops to use
20110128 20:29:19< Aethaeryn> It has a lot of unused land
20110128 20:29:22< Elvish_Pillager> yeah
20110128 20:29:26< Elvish_Pillager> lots of unused land and lots of wind :p
20110128 20:29:29< Gambit> Mountain tops that we generally take to blowing up for coal.
20110128 20:29:30< Tomsik> Windmills are not cost-effective
20110128 20:29:31< Aethaeryn> everyone lives in the coastal areas except for a handful of big midwest cities
20110128 20:29:36< Aethaeryn> most of the west is wasted space
20110128 20:29:48< Aethaeryn> if the one requirement is land, then USA could be selling energy to the rest of the Americas :P
20110128 20:29:52< Tomsik> neither are solar panels
20110128 20:29:52< Aethaeryn> except Canada might be better
20110128 20:29:56< Aethaeryn> depends on how much wind Canada gets
20110128 20:30:08< Tomsik> and storage
20110128 20:30:10< Aethaeryn> Something like 80% or 90% of Canada lives near the southern border
20110128 20:30:13< Aethaeryn> the rest is all frontier
20110128 20:30:15< Tomsik> of that power is inconvinient
20110128 20:30:24< Tomsik> and needs batteries, that have to be made of something
20110128 20:30:38< Gambit> versus oil
20110128 20:30:40< Gambit> that you use up
20110128 20:30:42< Gambit> and you need more
20110128 20:30:44< Gambit> and then you need more
20110128 20:30:46< Gambit> and then you need some more
20110128 20:30:46< Aethaeryn> Tomsik: You're comparing first generation tech to final generation tech
20110128 20:30:49< Gambit> and when you're done with that batch
20110128 20:30:49< Tomsik> unless you want ten tonnes of sulfur and lead 
20110128 20:30:53< Gambit> you've got to get a little more
20110128 20:30:53< Aethaeryn> Oil has had over 100 years to maximize efficiency.
20110128 20:30:59< Aethaeryn> Of course new technology won't get polished right away.
20110128 20:31:10< Aethaeryn> That's like expecting smartphones in 2005 to 2007 to be as polished as desktop computers
20110128 20:31:13< Tomsik> There's more seamless ways to transfer
20110128 20:31:19< Aethaeryn> If the industry hasn't existed as long, they'll not have streamlined all the issues
20110128 20:31:22< Tomsik> to other energy sources than electricity
20110128 20:31:45< Aethaeryn> Tomsik: the most efficient fuel is antimatter... All cars should be powered by antimatter by 2050 imo
20110128 20:31:57< Aethaeryn> 100% of antimatter annihilates
20110128 20:32:02< Aethaeryn> You can't get more efficient than that.
20110128 20:32:09< Tomsik> antimatter is not efficient
20110128 20:32:11< Elvish_Pillager> Efficient in what sense?
20110128 20:32:13< Aethaeryn> It's hypothetical interstellar spaceship fuel
20110128 20:32:24< Tomsik> because you loose a lot of energy in process of storing and creating it
20110128 20:32:30< Aethaeryn> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anitmatter#Fuel
20110128 20:32:34< Aethaeryn> I bet Britannica doesn't have that
20110128 20:32:41< Elvish_Pillager> Tomsik: come back to me when you have a fuel that you keep most of the energy of in the process of creation
20110128 20:32:48< Elvish_Pillager> I'd probably accept 90%
20110128 20:32:49< Tomsik> yeah, and spacetime bending is a hypothetical spaceship drive
20110128 20:32:57< Aethaeryn> Anyway, my upper-level physics knowledge is a bit weak
20110128 20:33:00< Aethaeryn> So just go read that article
20110128 20:33:22< Tomsik> Aethaeryn: antimatter will not be practical to use in any foreseeable future
20110128 20:33:33< Aethaeryn> "energy storage in the form of antimatter could (in theory) be 100% efficient."
20110128 20:33:51< Tomsik> Not in foreseeable future
20110128 20:34:05< Aethaeryn> Well, yeah, it's the forseeable future, someone on Wikipedia foresaw it.
20110128 20:34:06< Elvish_Pillager> the main point of antimatter fuel is energy-per-mass
20110128 20:34:14< Aethaeryn> A better phrase is "not in our lifetimes"
20110128 20:34:15< Elvish_Pillager> which is not a real issue for automobiles...
20110128 20:34:19< Gambit> Computers can't fit in your desk in the foreseeable future.
20110128 20:34:19< Tomsik> It was a great deal when they managed to store antimatter for a few miliseconds
20110128 20:34:44< Gambit> Maybe some day they'll only have a million vacuum tubes and only weight a ton and a half.
20110128 20:34:47< Elvish_Pillager> Gambit: Of course not! My desk isn't hollow!
20110128 20:34:50< Elvish_Pillager> ;)
20110128 20:35:23< Gambit> Elvish_Pillager: Yeah typo. It certainly isn't healthy to enclose a computer.
20110128 20:35:30< Tomsik> You do not understand the difference
20110128 20:35:33< Tomsik> Computers vs rockets
20110128 20:35:45< Tomsik> You hit a roof early or not
20110128 20:36:14< Aethaeryn> You do not understand the difference.
20110128 20:36:18< Aethaeryn> Computers were immensely profitable.
20110128 20:36:34< Aethaeryn> If money were in rockets, private industry would be improving it leaps and bounds ahead of what government alone could do.
20110128 20:36:46< Tomsik> Money is and was in rockets
20110128 20:36:49< Aethaeryn> The difference between computers and rockets is that rockets are in the hands of governmental space industries with extremely limited funding.
20110128 20:36:56< Gambit> That's another good point. Rocket research is entirely public.
20110128 20:37:13< Gambit> Tomsik: We had a spaceship prototype :(
20110128 20:37:14< Aethaeryn> What you need is space tourism to take off as a profitable venture.
20110128 20:37:24< Aethaeryn> Then there'll be space hotels that will make space stations efficient and safe.
20110128 20:37:24< Gambit> A small space ship :(
20110128 20:37:39< Tomsik> Army invested a crapload of money and time in the whole world
20110128 20:37:44< Tomsik> to get better rockets
20110128 20:37:45< Gambit> It was canned because the government couldn't use it and it was too expensive.
20110128 20:37:49< Aethaeryn> Honestly? I don't think the US government will ever return to the Moon because we don't have the Russians to compete with.
20110128 20:38:01< Aethaeryn> I think it'll take some rogue billionaire or two to return to the moon in the next century.
20110128 20:38:04< Aethaeryn> Not a government.
20110128 20:38:13< Elvish_Pillager> oooh
20110128 20:38:16< Tomsik> Gotta afk, later
20110128 20:38:19< Aethaeryn> Sure it starts in the governmental sector when it's not profitable.
20110128 20:38:20< Elvish_Pillager> we can haz supervillain with moon base?
20110128 20:38:35< Gambit> Plus maybe rockets aren't improving because we've already got theoretical replacements.
20110128 20:38:42< Aethaeryn> But as soon as the research gets to a point where companies think there's money in it without having too put too much R&D into it... that's when it explodes, so to speak.
20110128 20:38:45< Gambit> Bye Tomsik.
20110128 20:39:00< Aethaeryn> So yeah, a lot of technology starts with governments but then we never see it until corporations popularize, mass-produce, and cheapen it.
20110128 20:39:15< Aethaeryn> Honestly, you probably need both.
20110128 20:39:27< Aethaeryn> At least, the current way economic, technological, etc., incentives are set up
20110128 20:40:08< Aethaeryn> Government investment is nothing compared to private sector investment... if and only if the private sector companies see the potential for profit and then actually do profit.
20110128 20:40:37< Aethaeryn> If it's a sector where there's tons of monetary losses or even probably a break even, then the government does it.
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20110128 20:41:14< Aethaeryn> If you want to see massive space travel improvements, follow these guys: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virgin_Galactic
20110128 20:41:27< Aethaeryn> The US government isn't interested in space travel anymore, unfortunately.
20110128 20:41:50< Aethaeryn> It's not that they can't do it, it's that politicians would rather spend on wars and bailouts and then complain they have no money to fund NASA.
20110128 20:41:55< Aethaeryn> At least private space companies will get funding.
20110128 20:42:31< Aethaeryn> If we didn't go into Iraq or Afghanistan and instead spent all that money on going to Mars, we'd probably be going to Mars within the decade.
20110128 20:42:34< Aethaeryn> If not already.
20110128 20:42:42< Elvish_Pillager> bah
20110128 20:42:43< Aethaeryn> (Within this coming decade.)
20110128 20:42:48< Elvish_Pillager> isn't it a waste to go to Mars?
20110128 20:42:55< Elvish_Pillager> what's the use of going to Mars anyway?
20110128 20:43:00< Elvish_Pillager> I'd rather have clean energy
20110128 20:43:03< Aethaeryn> To boldly go where no man has gone before.
20110128 20:43:13< Aethaeryn> Besides, technology isn't done in issolation.
20110128 20:43:29< Aethaeryn> Things that are invented in the space program *will* provide improvements in other areas too
20110128 20:43:42< Aethaeryn> Any government program is like an incubator of technology.
20110128 20:43:45< zookeeper> i see no point in going to mars.
20110128 20:43:50< Aethaeryn> The only question is if you want to do peaceful tech or war tech
20110128 20:44:08< Elvish_Pillager> zookeeper: don't you see? It's like one of the Achievements in a stupid online game
20110128 20:44:15< Aethaeryn> The point of going to Mars is because it's a massive achievement, so EP is right.
20110128 20:44:17< Elvish_Pillager> "You got to Mars! +10 points"
20110128 20:44:31< Aethaeryn> It's the same point as building artificial cities in hostile climate (like the UAE or China) or giant skyscrapers.
20110128 20:44:35< Aethaeryn> You do it because you have the money.
20110128 20:44:43< Aethaeryn> It's even why pyramids were done thousands of years ago.
20110128 20:44:47< Gambit> It's a milestone toward broader space travel programs.
20110128 20:44:52< Aethaeryn> It's kind of like conspicuous consumption at the governmental level.
20110128 20:44:55< Aethaeryn> And it's as old as civilization.
20110128 20:45:08< Elvish_Pillager> Gambit: what's the use of space travel when we haven't sorted out our affairs on Earth?
20110128 20:45:24< Aethaeryn> To put it in the language most Americans could understand: We went to the motherfucking Moon because we fucking could.
20110128 20:45:40< Aethaeryn> So we should go other damn planets if we fucking can.
20110128 20:46:09< Aethaeryn> Elvish_Pillager: Space travel can in fact sort out our affairs on Earth.
20110128 20:46:32< Aethaeryn> E.g. overpopulation is no issue if we can find a way to viably and sustainably colonize other worlds.
20110128 20:46:45< Elvish_Pillager> that's likely [/sarcasm]
20110128 20:46:46< Aethaeryn> Sure that might take centuries, but if we never start the process, we'll never get there.
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20110128 20:47:30< Aethaeryn> If you ever want humankind to leave the pale blue dot we live on, you have to sow the seeds now, even if it might take a very long time for us to actually do it.
20110128 20:47:48< Aethaeryn> i.e. It requires foresight no one in this generation has.
20110128 20:48:10< Aethaeryn> The same reason we don't give a damn about the environment is the same reason we don't give a damn about space travel: it's someone else's problem long after we're gone.
20110128 20:48:35 * zookeeper doesn't want humankind to leave the earth
20110128 20:49:20< zookeeper> i care about the environment though because ruining the environment is dumb. not going to space isn't dumb.
20110128 20:49:37< Aethaeryn> First of all.
20110128 20:49:47< Aethaeryn> If people didn't give a damn about space, we wouldn't be able to know much about the environment.
20110128 20:49:58< Aethaeryn> Given that much if not most of the space program is focused inward toward Earth.
20110128 20:50:10< Aethaeryn> In other words, satellites analyzing Earth.
20110128 20:50:20< Aethaeryn> We also learn about climates from studying other planets, such as Venus.
20110128 20:50:20< zookeeper> space programs which are focused inward toward earth aren't about going to space.
20110128 20:50:37< Aethaeryn> I honestly don't think we would have known much if anything about the greenhouse effect if we never cared about that tiny dot in the sky called Venus.
20110128 20:50:53< Aethaeryn> Earth isn't the only planet in the world and scientific fields are not done in issolation.
20110128 20:51:07< Aethaeryn> There are network effects that exist by investing as broadly as possible into science.
20110128 20:51:16< Aethaeryn> And yes, the space program and environmental science do have strong links.
20110128 20:51:33< Aethaeryn> ugh
20110128 20:51:40< Aethaeryn> "Earth isn't the only planet in the κοσμος"
20110128 20:51:45< Aethaeryn> I hate the English language sometimes.
20110128 20:51:53< Aethaeryn> "World" has too many meanings. :P
20110128 20:52:18< zookeeper> yet none of that means that the costs of going to mars are gonna give us anywhere near the benefits that just investing the same amount of money into terrestial research would.
20110128 20:52:40< Aethaeryn> The issue you're talking about is manned vs. unmanned missions.
20110128 20:52:51< Aethaeryn> In other words, do we actually gain anything from sending people there?
20110128 20:53:03< Aethaeryn> Not whether or not we should have a space program at all.
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20110128 20:53:31< Aethaeryn> It is precisely because there are too many naysayers, though, that I expect most space progress to be done by the private sector.
20110128 20:53:55< Aethaeryn> Ironically, the private sector is less likely than the public sector to care about cost right now. At least when it comes to space programs.
20110128 20:54:04< Aethaeryn> Or rather, they're more likely to gamble that there's profits involved.
20110128 20:54:24< Aethaeryn> No one wants to spend in government anymore (and looking at Greece, I can't blame people).
20110128 20:54:57< Aethaeryn> Even the Democrats in the US are talking about restraining spending.
20110128 20:55:07< Aethaeryn> It is in this environment that universities, science, space, etc., suffer.
20110128 20:55:41< Aethaeryn> Military spending, corporate subsidies, and social handouts will always get their spending. The first two are necessary due to massive lobbying and the third is how politicians get votes.
20110128 20:56:05< Aethaeryn> The long-term scientific progress, however, people don't give a damn about because the payoffs are far beyond the 2-8 years that politicians think in.
20110128 20:56:49< Aethaeryn> Ironically, a non-democratic government like China that doesn't think only as far as the next election might be needed to provide a "Sputnik moment" to the democratic West.
20110128 20:57:42< Aethaeryn> i.e. If China lands on the Moon, suddenly every American politician will be embarrassed for letting NASA basically not progress much for the past 20-40 years.
20110128 20:58:15< Aethaeryn> It's no coincidence that America stopped caring about NASA as the Soviet Union weakened and then collapsed. Competition, not necessarily private competition, drives progress.
20110128 20:58:39< Aethaeryn> If it wasn't the space "race" we wouldn't have done much, maybe launch a few satellites.
20110128 20:59:34< Aethaeryn> But quite frankly if we can waste so much money on useless things like billion-dollar military projects that accomplish nothing or wars that we shouldn't even be involved in, then I think we can spend a few billion on at least researching and considering sending people to Mars without having to actually do it in the end.
20110128 21:00:10< Aethaeryn> In other words, if you're going to be spending the money anyway, at least spend it on something future generations will thank you for.
20110128 21:02:05< Aethaeryn> For thousands of years, mankind has looked up at the stars and imagined what they would be like. Today, we know more about them than ever before. Let us not be the generation that stops the progress. Inaction can be as detrimental as the wrong action. The lack of progress can lead to regression.
20110128 21:02:32< Aethaeryn> If we don't go forward, we can in fact go backward and over the course of many years lose capabilities we once had.
20110128 21:02:47< Aethaeryn> (Due to lack of funding at first, and then in the long run lack of people with the proper knowledge/experience.)
20110128 21:03:15< Aethaeryn> A hundred years from now, will we be known as the generation that killed space travel before it left its infancy?
20110128 21:03:18< Aethaeryn> </rant>
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20110128 21:04:28< Aethaeryn> And no, we don't get as much immediate benefits from government funding to make it cost-neutral or even profitable. If we did, the government wouldn't need to fund it because it would be funding itself.
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20110128 21:17:14< Aethaeryn> Wow, we started with Egypt and ended with a rant about why space-travel needs to happen. Only on IRC.
20110128 21:18:38< Aethaeryn> This is why I get no work done on IRC
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--- Log closed Sat Jan 29 00:00:53 2011