--- Log opened Mon Feb 07 00:00:50 2011
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20110207 01:24:58< CIA-89> espreon * r48431 /trunk/data/languages/ar_AR.cfg: Made Arabic conform.
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20110207 04:58:22< ancestral> Would be awesome to have some music that's a little more Arab in style to befit the new faction in the next release…
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20110207 09:53:47< CIA-89> espreon * r48432 /trunk/m4/: Removed an empty directory.
20110207 09:54:43 * shadowmaster sheds a tear.
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20110207 09:58:19< Ivanovic> moin
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20110207 10:00:39< timotei> mourning
20110207 10:01:46< shadowmaster> "mourning" and "morning" are completely different things.
20110207 10:02:06< CIA-89> espreon * r48433 /trunk/data/scenario-test.cfg: Removed now-untrue comment.
20110207 10:03:53< Espreon> Indeed.
20110207 10:04:51< Ivanovic> shadowmaster: but you have to be awake to be mourning
20110207 10:05:02< Ivanovic> so as message stating "am awake now" it does serve, too
20110207 10:05:03< Ivanovic> ;)
20110207 10:06:10< Espreon> ...
20110207 10:06:15 * Espreon is not amused
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20110207 10:13:43< Espreon> It seems that the "Temporal clone" test no longer works.
20110207 10:13:48< Espreon> Upthorn: ^
20110207 10:14:55< Upthorn> I haven't changed anything since summer of code, so that is disconcerting
20110207 10:16:45< Espreon> Indeed.
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20110207 10:23:04< timotei> shadowmaster: yes. I said that in purpose :D
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20110207 11:13:36< Ivanovic> i am currently composing a mail to the wesnoth-dev ml referencing the summary of stuff we have done during fosdem
20110207 11:14:31< Ivanovic> it would be nice if those that have done some discussions in a subgroup could add those, currently only the stuff that we have done "in plenum" are listed in the wiki (will reference the wiki and give a short list of topics in the mail)
20110207 11:14:38< Ivanovic> http://wiki.wesnoth.org/Fosdem2011#Discussions_and_Results
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20110207 11:15:25< Espreon> http://wiki.wesnoth.org/Thank_god_for_the_umpire_certification_Sociable_customers_3 ... Wiki spam. User that created it: MorganRosas7
20110207 11:16:47< Espreon> Moar spam: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/Doing_my_hvac_thing
20110207 11:17:06< Espreon> The user WorkmanBishop created that.
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20110207 11:48:54< Crab_|FOSDEM> mordante:  no, the ' use_markup="true" ' method hasn't worked, so I've reverted to using the '1 label' approach, which worked. still, I've got the listbox code at hand, too, so if you suggest another ways to try, I can.
20110207 11:49:04-!- Crab_|FOSDEM is now known as Crab___
20110207 11:50:51< Ivanovic> Crab___: you saw my mail to the dev ml? would be nice if you added some of the stuff you were working on during fosdem to the wiki (eg the tunnel feature)
20110207 11:51:06 * Ivanovic is currently composing a mail regarding the removal of tinygui
20110207 11:52:14< Crab___> I did little on the tunnel feature itself, only helped a bit to test it
20110207 11:52:21< Crab___> I'll add stuff to wiki now
20110207 11:52:33< Ivanovic> Crab___: yeah, but testing was one of the things done during fosdem
20110207 11:52:45< Ivanovic> http://wiki.wesnoth.org/Fosdem2011
20110207 12:00:48< Ivanovic> sent an RFC regarding the removal of "tinygui" from trunk
20110207 12:09:23< Crab___> Ivanovic: done (added info about fendrin_pathfind branch plus info about mp chat log history dialog)
20110207 12:09:34< Ivanovic> Crab___: cool!
20110207 12:20:06< timotei> Ivanovic: (yeah, once we find someone to actually do the job, the move to OpenGL is still a plan)
20110207 12:20:11< timotei> isn't alink working on it?
20110207 12:20:28< Ivanovic> timotei: he was rather inactive lately and there was nothing done at all for 2 month
20110207 12:20:34< timotei> oh. ok
20110207 12:20:37< Ivanovic> timotei: so i don't know if he is still working on it
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20110207 15:39:28< CIA-89> ai0867 * r48434 /trunk/src/scripting/lua.cpp: Teach lua about the [tunnel] tag
20110207 15:39:33< happygrue> Ivanovic: just read the FOSDEM update, that's a nice little wiki - with a picture even!  :D
20110207 15:40:09< Ivanovic> yeah
20110207 15:40:15< happygrue> about Kalifa: there is a playable era for it now, we are emailing around a bit and will try to brush it up to the point where it can be committed
20110207 15:40:23< happygrue> not sure about the timeline there
20110207 15:40:46< Ivanovic> yeah, heard that the work was going on and was about to edit the respective discussion entry with the info from sunday chats
20110207 15:41:19< happygrue> about 1.8.6: I was chatting with Soliton and we would really like to see required nick registration sometime, perhaps it could coincide with the 1.8.6 release?
20110207 15:41:20< Ivanovic> (the summary was written early on sunday before noy wrote that he plans to discuss the stats with some of you over the next week so that it can be pushed into trunk afterwards)
20110207 15:41:38< Ivanovic> "required nick registration"?
20110207 15:41:39< happygrue> and are there problems with that?  I know it might not be popular with some users, but all the mp mods and I think many uusers would like it
20110207 15:41:55< Ivanovic> is there some FR for this stuff?
20110207 15:41:56< happygrue> that is, to play on the mp server you must register your nick
20110207 15:42:02< happygrue> I don't think so yet
20110207 15:42:30< happygrue> we have talked about it a lot as a wish for some time now on the MP side of things, but (I think) the will hasn't been there to really make a push for it
20110207 15:42:34< Ivanovic> one negative point about this would be that it makes testing for devs more difficult (aka "log in with 3 clients into the server")
20110207 15:42:49< happygrue> mmm
20110207 15:42:51< Ivanovic> and: how does this work eg with "local clients" without any database to rely on?
20110207 15:42:51< happygrue> interesting point
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20110207 15:43:09< happygrue> well, it would only be for connecting to the mp server
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20110207 15:43:15< happygrue> locally wouldn't change I think?
20110207 15:43:16< AI0867> Ivanovic: [tunnel] was already on the wiki, I removed the "this feature doesn't actually exist yet" comment yesterday
20110207 15:43:38< Ivanovic> AI0867: okay
20110207 15:43:47< Ivanovic> happygrue: no idea
20110207 15:44:03< Ivanovic> happygrue: personally i'd say that we should not introduce this at this point for the existing stable server
20110207 15:44:14< happygrue> Ivanovic: well, as yet no FR.  OK, noted.
20110207 15:44:24< Ivanovic> that is: can the change not be implemented via server side changes only?
20110207 15:44:28< happygrue> right
20110207 15:44:31< happygrue> way
20110207 15:44:32< happygrue> wait
20110207 15:44:42< happygrue> it is server side only, according to Soliton
20110207 15:44:57< happygrue> he inicated it could be done "at any time"
20110207 15:45:15< happygrue> but of course, this means making people (some of whom won't want to) sign up for something
20110207 15:45:27< happygrue> but here is the kind of thing it would help with:
20110207 15:45:55< happygrue> a user was banning someone from their game for being annoying and that user changed IP numerous times and returned
20110207 15:46:35< happygrue> if they had one account that had to be registered then changing IP wouldn't matter, they would have to be signing up for a new account each time.
20110207 15:46:45< happygrue> but yes, as you say there are some downsides as well
20110207 15:47:01< happygrue> anyway, food for thought.
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20110207 16:05:50< CIA-89> anonymissimus * r48435 /trunk/projectfiles/ (CodeBlocks/wesnoth.cbp VC9/wesnoth.vcproj): project file update CodeBlocks & MSVC
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20110207 19:26:49< fendrin> hello
20110207 19:28:26< Ivanovic> hi fendrin
20110207 19:28:52< Ivanovic> fendrin: please check that i wrote down the correct stuff regarding the extra tag that should allow more easy modding
20110207 19:29:02< Ivanovic> http://wiki.wesnoth.org/Fosdem2011#Easing_the_use_of_lazy_loading.2Fmodding
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20110207 19:39:01< Soliton> Ivanovic, happygrue: there is nothing to introduce for allowing only registered players, it's already implemented. (not much tested though probably.)
20110207 19:40:39< Soliton> what we discussed in relation to that is banning by nick (for hosts and mods) which makes only sense with registered players.
20110207 19:43:11< Soliton> (well, looks like that was already mentioned.)
20110207 19:45:27< fendrin> Ivanovic: Yes, you got it basically right. I guess I have concret details in mind, but selling them as discussed at FOSDEM would be a lie.
20110207 19:46:27< Crendgrim> Do you want to disallow non-registered users using the official server?
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20110207 20:07:08< Soliton> Crendgrim: that's what we're thinking about, yes.
20110207 20:07:42< Crendgrim> Soliton: I always liked Wesnoth for not forcing its users to register :/
20110207 20:08:36< Soliton> get the mean people off the internet then!
20110207 20:08:45< Crendgrim> Soliton: I think that's especially bad if you have trouble with your connection and have to reconnect. Retaking ownership of a side in a game will get much more complicated ... and observing multiple games will be impossible if you don't register multiple accounts...
20110207 20:08:55< Crendgrim> that would be the best solution. :p
20110207 20:09:45< Soliton> umm, especially retaking ownership of your nick and automatically joining a game will only be possible with registered users.
20110207 20:10:48< Crendgrim> automatically... sorry, didn't think about that.
20110207 20:11:11< Ivanovic> Soliton: i think before we start using such a system of "registered users only" it should be brought up on the -dev ml
20110207 20:11:58< Ivanovic> it has many positive side effects, though some negative ones, too (like eg "registering just to play a litte sucks" and "following >1 game or testing with several games would require more user accounts in the forums"
20110207 20:12:11< Soliton> it'll only get more interesting once we have more of the above mentioned features.
20110207 20:13:05< Soliton> so far the option is just there if we get seriously annoyed by someone.
20110207 20:13:18< Gambit> as far as "registering just to play a little sucks" what if each copy of Wesnoth could identify itself?
20110207 20:13:19< Crendgrim> so.. what if one of the alternative servers would be open for non-registered users? Then you'd have one for everyone and one / two limited...
20110207 20:13:55< Soliton> sure, we'll probably just do it for the main one.
20110207 20:14:04< Soliton> and also not for trunk.
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20110207 20:15:01< timotei> Gambit: why not get the computer's hardware id and use that? :P
20110207 20:15:05< Soliton> the other way around we could also turn it on for one of the alternates now and tell people to go there if they want...
20110207 20:15:29< Gambit> timotei: sure. We can use MAC addresses!
20110207 20:15:50< Soliton> but as mentioned features requiring registered nicks are still lacking.
20110207 20:16:19< Gambit> if troublemakers are dedicated enough to buy new nic cards every time, then...
20110207 20:16:33< Soliton> or issue a command to change it...
20110207 20:17:28< Gambit> Oh.
20110207 20:17:29< timotei> Gambit: or change their mac 
20110207 20:17:30< timotei> >)
20110207 20:17:40< Gambit> D:
20110207 20:17:42< timotei> ok. that's only for the non-wireless ones
20110207 20:17:54< Crendgrim> you can never completely avoid troublemakers on a free game..
20110207 20:18:03< timotei> Crendgrim: yes you can
20110207 20:18:08< timotei> Crendgrim: disable multiplayer 
20110207 20:18:17< timotei> a radical but 100% success rate solution
20110207 20:18:19 * Soliton . o O (unlike on a paid game?)
20110207 20:18:28< Gambit> Okay. I didn't know that was possible. Nevermind.
20110207 20:19:18< Crendgrim> Soliton: No, neither. But if you have to pay for something, you wouldn't really like to waste your money :p (I meant a game where you have to pay a certain amount of money for using it; e.g WoW)
20110207 20:20:16< Soliton> pfff, if i pay i'm entitled to be an ass!
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20110207 20:23:12< Gambit> Okay then we'll have to start distributing Wesnoth only on CD's. And you'll have to have the CD in to run it. And each CD will have a unique key.
20110207 20:23:27< Gambit> [/obvious joke]
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20110207 20:40:02< mordante> servus
20110207 20:40:13< timotei> hi mordante 
20110207 20:40:29< mordante> hi timotei 
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20110207 20:42:25< CIA-89> mordante * r48437 /trunk/data/gui/default/window/debug_clock.cfg: 
20110207 20:42:25< CIA-89> Add a circle to the debug clock.
20110207 20:42:25< CIA-89> Doesn't look too great, but the window is for debug testing only.
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20110207 20:42:36< CIA-89> mordante * r48436 /trunk/src/gui/auxiliary/canvas.cpp: Add a way to draw a circle on a canvas.
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20110207 20:45:15< mordante> Crab_ odd that it use_markup doesn't work... it should do the trick
20110207 20:46:40< timotei> mordante: nice drawing circle algorithm :D
20110207 20:47:23< mordante> timotei, yeah have some other ideas for its usage as well
20110207 20:48:38< CIA-89> mordante * r48438 /trunk/ (data/core/help.cfg doc/manual/manual.txt): 
20110207 20:48:38< CIA-89> Improve the red orb description in the help.
20110207 20:48:38< CIA-89> Issue was found by chrber.
20110207 20:51:26< Ivanovic> mordante: what do you think of splitting the GUI2 stuff up in a more "team based" approach? currently it appears that it is simply to much to handle for a single person in any sane amounts of time (sane being "human lifespan")
20110207 20:51:28< Ivanovic> ;)
20110207 20:53:25< Ivanovic> mordante: possibly going as far as creating "feature requests" with what you want and linking those as easy/not so easy/hard coding tasks
20110207 20:53:41< Ivanovic> (could be part of the stuff that gsoc students can have a look at)
20110207 20:54:00< mordante> . o O (what would have been a good thing to discuss at the FOSDEM?)
20110207 20:54:21< timotei> Ivanovic: does the project acceptance in GSoc be based on the ideas list?
20110207 20:54:33< Ivanovic> mordante: hey, you are responsible for gui2, you could have brought it up!
20110207 20:54:44< Ivanovic> timotei: yes, the ideas list is one part
20110207 20:56:33< fendrin> timotei: I wonder if you would like to apply for the umc eclipse editor once more.
20110207 20:56:45< mordante> Ivanovic, it's not really my idea work on it in a team
20110207 20:57:12< mordante> otherwise I would have brought it up
20110207 20:57:14< Ivanovic> mordante: but it would make sense since you don't have the time (atm) to really work alot on it just on your own
20110207 20:59:03< timotei> fendrin: of course :)
20110207 20:59:29< timotei> I'll make a list of things to be done for the editor
20110207 20:59:38< timotei> so other student might have also a chance to do this...
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20110207 21:01:09< fendrin> timotei: nice
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20110207 21:07:01< mordante> Ivanovic, not sure how easy it is to split the task especially since there's quite a bit low level stuff to do
20110207 21:07:40< mordante> also I like to figure out some problems myself for the learning experience
20110207 21:08:22< mordante> happygrue, I don't think it is a good idea to make registration mandatory in the middle of a stable series
20110207 21:08:36< mordante> what happens if a user still uses 1.8.5?
20110207 21:08:52< mordante> also not really fond of the idea of mandatory registration
20110207 21:09:05< mordante> for testing I sometimes need several clients connected
20110207 21:09:05< Ivanovic> mordante: from what i understood it would be mandatory because the change happens on the server side
20110207 21:09:20< mordante> still 
20110207 21:09:23< Ivanovic> so any client accepted on the server has to register, not only "latest version"
20110207 21:09:32< fendrin> Ivanovic, mordante: I think we could deceide on the Layout of the recruit and recall dialogue stuff.
20110207 21:09:33< happygrue> mordante: yes, that is a fair point.  Though the timing is more just because it might be convenient to annouce with a new release
20110207 21:09:37< Ivanovic> mordante: you should read the rest of the logs
20110207 21:09:40< mordante> think it's a bad idea to change something like that in a stable series
20110207 21:10:31< happygrue> another way to do it would be to make it manditory for the stable server (where most of the policing happens) but allow the dev server to accept anyone
20110207 21:10:44< happygrue> that might also push people onto the dev server (a good thing IMO)
20110207 21:10:47< fendrin> I would like too work on that stuff again, making the code stable before it gets hopeless outdated.
20110207 21:10:47< zookeeper> wait. mandatory registration for the MP server?
20110207 21:10:59< happygrue> zookeeper: yes
20110207 21:11:08< happygrue> I can't say that I'm fond of it either
20110207 21:11:15< zookeeper> frankly, that sounds terrible
20110207 21:11:27< happygrue> though I'm not fond of players getting harrassed without there being much we can do about it
20110207 21:11:29< zookeeper> mandatory registration is incredibly annoying when you just want to try out the game
20110207 21:11:30< happygrue> and that does happen
20110207 21:11:34< mordante> happygrue, sometimes we also need to debug on the stable server
20110207 21:12:01< mordante> Ivanovic, ah is see server only
20110207 21:12:25< happygrue> I agree with every counter argument so far - I'm just saying that it still might be the lesser evil to have at least some place where registration is required
20110207 21:12:41< shadowmaster> Uh.
20110207 21:12:53< happygrue> there are users who get annoyed at people being vulgur and we can't block them all currently
20110207 21:13:01< shadowmaster> I came here late, but I don't like the idea of mandatory registration either.
20110207 21:13:08< zookeeper> happygrue, is that something that granting moderatorship to more people (i'd expect there to be many known and trustworthy players out there) and maybe giving the moderators better tools couldn't solve?
20110207 21:13:09< happygrue> right, no one loves it
20110207 21:13:10< shadowmaster> not everyone can read English, for starters.
20110207 21:13:11< fendrin> zookeeper: Then let's redirect "outtryers" to a different server. So they find better enemies that fit their skill.
20110207 21:13:25< Ivanovic> for those coming late: http://www.wesnoth.org/irclogs/2011/02/%23wesnoth-dev.2011-02-07.log
20110207 21:13:31< zookeeper> fendrin, there they'd only find trolls and other newbies and all the serious players would be elsewhere
20110207 21:13:37< zookeeper> worst possible introduction to MP
20110207 21:13:53< fendrin> no
20110207 21:13:56< fendrin> much better
20110207 21:14:03< fendrin> other newbies
20110207 21:14:06< zookeeper> and we'd still need to moderate there
20110207 21:14:09< happygrue> zookeeper: it would help some to have more mods, yes, but we're talking about users who just change IPs and are back almost faster than we can ban them
20110207 21:14:25< happygrue> and that means it takes someone sitting there and doing it
20110207 21:14:32< zookeeper> hmh
20110207 21:14:39< happygrue> I welcome you all to come lurk in #wesnoth-mp-mod and watch ;)
20110207 21:15:07< shadowmaster> 17:14:57 -ChanServ(ChanServ@services.)- Flags      : RESTRICTED PRIVATE
20110207 21:15:28< shadowmaster> happygrue: thanks for the invitation anyway :p
20110207 21:15:29< happygrue> for exmaple, last night we had a complaint from a user who was banning someone from their game, and the banned player comes back again and a again with different IPs
20110207 21:15:31< Crendgrim> fendrin: I'm sort of a newbie and it helps me more to watch ladder games than playing against other bad users :/
20110207 21:15:40< happygrue> shadowmaster: yes, ask solition if you would like to come lurk
20110207 21:16:32< happygrue> here is an alternate idea:
20110207 21:16:36< fendrin> happygrue: I think required login is a good thing. But having a free try out zone as well.
20110207 21:16:55< happygrue> what about if users could set as a game option to allow only regisetered players to join and observe the game?
20110207 21:17:12< zookeeper> happygrue, yes, that would be a nice thing to have, i suppose.
20110207 21:17:17< happygrue> then a host can have much better control overer their own game
20110207 21:17:27< happygrue> and we don't have to impose draconian registration on everyone
20110207 21:17:36< shadowmaster> that sounds good
20110207 21:17:38< happygrue> still doesn't solve the lobby issue, but it's a step better
20110207 21:18:09< happygrue> the problem with that is that is also takes client side work
20110207 21:18:17< happygrue> but that is not a problem per say
20110207 21:18:42< happygrue> it just means it either happens soon or we wait a long time for it to make it into stable
20110207 21:19:34< happygrue> zookeeper: with regard to adding mods, we take nominations :D
20110207 21:19:36< zookeeper> well, the problem for game hosts AFAICT is that it's cumbersome to ban people. you have to type the command instead of having a button for it. also you can't disallow observers mid-game to prevent a troublemaker from coming back.
20110207 21:19:44< boucman> was having "logged in only" rooms in the lobby considered ?
20110207 21:20:11< zookeeper> if you could get rid of the troublemaker who keeps coming back with a new IP with two clicks, then they'd tire much faster than you.
20110207 21:20:22< happygrue> zookeeper: banning isn't overly combersome, it is that they can just come right back if they can change their IP
20110207 21:20:32< happygrue> that is true
20110207 21:20:35< timotei> why not ban by MAC address?
20110207 21:20:43< happygrue> if it were very easy then it might be too much work for the trouble maker
20110207 21:20:43< timotei> since not many know/like to change that?
20110207 21:20:48< happygrue> *very easy to ban
20110207 21:21:26< boucman> timotei: afaik mac address don't go through router
20110207 21:21:34< zookeeper> yes, because by the time you've typed the ban command they've already been able to spew lots of spam and annoy everyone. and it takes time to type the command, not to mention if you need to ask other players for instructions.
20110207 21:21:35< timotei> well, it goes router's one
20110207 21:21:49< timotei> banning a whole router is no problem, is it?
20110207 21:21:59< boucman> timotei: no, the only one the server sees is the one of its gateway
20110207 21:22:33< boucman> i.e unless you have a hub (which are very rare nowday) you only see one mac address, the one on the other end of the cable
20110207 21:22:44< timotei> well..
20110207 21:22:51< timotei> make the wesnoth client send the ACTUAL mac 
20110207 21:22:53< timotei> to the server
20110207 21:23:08< timotei> on connection
20110207 21:23:18< shadowmaster> cross-platform method to acquire the primary interface's physical address?
20110207 21:23:22< boucman> relating on that in an OSS game makes little sense, not mentionning privacy issue
20110207 21:23:34< boucman>  /relating/relying
20110207 21:23:43< Soliton> let's not waste time with silly workarounds...
20110207 21:23:44< timotei> ok. not the mac, then a.. checksum or something like that
20110207 21:24:15< mordante> which also won't work in open source
20110207 21:24:36< Ivanovic> lets face it, for 99% of all users it *would* work
20110207 21:24:40< shadowmaster> it only takes some effort to break that kind of mechanisms in closed-source apps too ;)
20110207 21:24:46< Ivanovic> because they are too dumb to find the place where this is done
20110207 21:24:55< Ivanovic> and are not able to work around it
20110207 21:25:16< Ivanovic> only a small fraction of the people on the mp server really got the ability to work around checks like this
20110207 21:25:39< happygrue> though those few who could are the ones that could really cause the most trouble
20110207 21:26:00< timotei> happygrue: but what different than creating another user?
20110207 21:26:10< zookeeper> well, in theory more intelligent bans would probably solve a lot, but it's of course hard to do. like, if you ban someone from your game, then it could automatically apply a subnet ban as well. so if you got yourself banned from a game, the guy next door couldn't join that game either; sounds like an acceptable trade-off to me.
20110207 21:26:43< timotei> or a combination of IP+mac ban
20110207 21:27:03< zookeeper> wide server-wide bans are problematic since innocents get caught up in them, but bans to an individual game shouldn't be a problem
20110207 21:27:05< timotei> or, the hardware id checksum
20110207 21:27:17< boucman> a smart thing would be to detect when multiple address from the same subnet have been banned, and ban the subnet automatically
20110207 21:27:17< happygrue> MAC can be spoofed, I'm not sure how useful it is to spend time impleneting something that can be rendered useless anyway
20110207 21:27:28< shadowmaster> timotei: I say we use nuclear missiles.
20110207 21:27:38< timotei> shadowmaster: what's wrong with HWID?
20110207 21:27:46< zookeeper> boucman, true
20110207 21:28:02< timotei> I doubt users will get a pile of PCI cards or so, just to switch then when he gots banned
20110207 21:28:07< boucman> happygrue: well, there is no complete solution, each technicall hurdle makes it harder to behave badly/reduce the set of users that can do it
20110207 21:28:08< happygrue> with regard to multiple users, yes they can create more users, but they need emails, they need time, and it is aggrevating and easy for us to ban
20110207 21:28:16< happygrue> I agree
20110207 21:28:31< timotei> really, the hardware id part... what's bad in it?
20110207 21:28:34< boucman> I guess we need to make banning easier and going around bad harder, that's the best we can do
20110207 21:28:58< boucman> timotei: we have two cases of users
20110207 21:29:02< happygrue> probably allowing at least hosts to allow only registered users is a very good step that isn't overly restrictive
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20110207 21:29:14< boucman> those that can recompile and those who can't
20110207 21:29:21< boucman> for those who can, hardware ID is useless
20110207 21:29:35< boucman> for those who can't there are simpler, lest costy solution...
20110207 21:29:45< timotei> recompile what? the game?
20110207 21:29:49< boucman> yes
20110207 21:29:50< timotei> to send a fake HWID?
20110207 21:29:52< timotei> right
20110207 21:29:56< Gambit> Just because it can be spoofed doesn't mean you don't go with it.
20110207 21:30:03< Gambit> You just go with what's hardest to spoof.
20110207 21:30:08< Shakey> the direction we've been heading lately is using ranged-ip bans.  This has caused problems for innocent uses, so the solution was to "allow registered users" to avoid the ranged ban.  This solution is one step away from requiring all users to register.  It's going to eventually be the only solution.  There are really crazy users out there that get off on messing with the mods and screwing the lobby.
20110207 21:30:10< Crendgrim> Do you really think that one will study the source, recompile the game - just to annoy some people? 
20110207 21:30:12< Gambit> Since that's the best thing you've got.
20110207 21:30:15< Shakey> you can still play local without any register
20110207 21:30:17< zookeeper> solution: obfuscate the HWID-generating and -sending code so that they can't! :P
20110207 21:30:23< timotei> boucman: does the server allow "custom" compiled clients PLAY on the ... SErVER?
20110207 21:30:37< Gambit> timotei: yes
20110207 21:30:44< Gambit> as long as they send the proper version
20110207 21:30:53< happygrue> Shakey is right in that some users have to register now anyway to get past the ranged bans
20110207 21:30:57< boucman> Crendgrim: if we assume they don't, it's an easy problem, we can just store the ban in the client...
20110207 21:31:02< happygrue> as more and more ranged bans are set it will be more and more users
20110207 21:31:20< Gambit> Afk for several hours.
20110207 21:31:26< shadowmaster> hm... language barrier?
20110207 21:31:27< boucman> timotei: of course...
20110207 21:31:50< boucman> do you think we have a checksum of "authorised binaries" from all distribution means ?
20110207 21:32:00< zookeeper> humm. how often would a word-based filter (just list all the usual vulgarities) be able to pinpoint a troublemaker?
20110207 21:32:17< zookeeper> not all of them i'm sure, but... half? more? less?
20110207 21:32:21< happygrue> zookeeper: it generates LOTS of false positives I think
20110207 21:32:50< happygrue> well, I guess you are talking abotu in the lobby?
20110207 21:32:52< timotei> boucman: I thought yes :P
20110207 21:32:54< timotei> why not?
20110207 21:33:07< Crendgrim> boucman: Indeed. I cannot believe that there are so many people around who have a knowledge as huge as needed for source editing (at the proper places in all the source files) and recompiling it only to use it to annoy people :/
20110207 21:33:08< boucman> zookeeper: and unlike recompiling, they will learn fast, so each annoyer would only be banned a couple of time
20110207 21:33:11< fendrin> I think having only registered players will reduce quitters a lot.
20110207 21:33:17< happygrue> for a while I filtered standared swear words via IRC, and I turned it off because it was so annoying
20110207 21:33:53< happygrue> much of the lobby policies itself, - short of auto kicking or bleeping people we can't stop the occasional swearing.
20110207 21:34:03< zookeeper> happygrue, well, both lobby and in-game. what i was thinking was if the server just dumped all the hits to a "mod channel" and mods could do something if it looks like someone's a genuine troublemaker. mostly i'm just wondering whether that'd be an effective system.
20110207 21:34:04< boucman> Crendgrim: i'd tend to agree... a for of id (even randomly generated, an mac/HW sig) would get rid of 90% of annoyers
20110207 21:34:18< boucman> i think it's the way to go, but we need to understand the limits
20110207 21:34:29< happygrue> in game is a problem because our policy is don't swear "unless you are sure everyone in the game is ok with it"
20110207 21:34:44< happygrue> because hosts are in charge ot policing their own games
20110207 21:34:55< zookeeper> happygrue, yeah, the mods would need to be able to see the full context and of course that gets a bit unwieldy to implement.
20110207 21:35:03< happygrue> but yes, it would reveal a lot of the trouble makers
20110207 21:35:09< happygrue> but identifying is not the problem
20110207 21:35:11< boucman> I don't want mandatory reg, this would be really too annoying, esp if people want to deploy their own serrvers,
20110207 21:35:17< happygrue> users can admin message us easily
20110207 21:35:23< boucman> a simple ID would be better and probably enough
20110207 21:35:30< happygrue> the problem is KEEPING them out after they have been identified and kicked
20110207 21:35:53< fendrin> boucman: Their own servers don't need to have that feature enabled. 
20110207 21:36:06< boucman> true...
20110207 21:36:07< zookeeper> happygrue, well, sounds like that'd be easy to solve by allowing hosts to do ranged-ip bans, or rather doing that semi-automatically?
20110207 21:36:10< happygrue> boucman: that would be a step in the right direction I think, maybe it would work very well in fact, I don't know
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20110207 21:36:31< fendrin> boucman: and the unregistered newbees are better in their own place.
20110207 21:36:36< boucman> happygrue: I think it's much better than mandatory reg and worth trying before going for the big guns
20110207 21:36:41< happygrue> zookeeper: quite possibly they could accidentally kick their own players
20110207 21:36:46< fendrin> boucman: Meeting another newbee in a game is a nice encounter.
20110207 21:36:54< happygrue> they can't ban or see IPs anyway
20110207 21:36:59< happygrue> they are all banning by nick
20110207 21:37:34< zookeeper> that seems like an interface problem only
20110207 21:37:43< happygrue> boucman: who and how to implent such a thing?
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20110207 21:37:57< boucman> happygrue: :) that's the real question
20110207 21:37:58< happygrue> I can file a FR, I just haven't been sure quite what to request yet.  ;)
20110207 21:37:58< zookeeper> like, if there's another player who'd match the ban, then the game should ask if you also want to kick them or if they're an exception
20110207 21:38:26< boucman> i'd say ban observers, pop-up a confirmation windows before banning a player
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20110207 21:40:20< happygrue> one thing to keep in mind:  we can as of right now flip a switch and allow registered users only on the server.  That is, it's already implemented
20110207 21:40:44< boucman> happygrue: yes, I had thought of that...
20110207 21:40:53< happygrue> is it worth consulting the user base, via forum pole or something?
20110207 21:40:59< boucman> but I havn't been on the server for quite some time, is it an emergency ?
20110207 21:41:00< happygrue> I really don't know what the average user thinks
20110207 21:41:16< happygrue> boucman: no, not at all
20110207 21:41:58< happygrue> I was just thinking about how long it might be to be implented if we waited until, say, the next stable release
20110207 21:42:02< boucman> the big problem is not so much the id itself (any random number would do) it's where to keep it, since we probably don't want to store it in the config file
20110207 21:42:04< Crendgrim> happygrue: forum pole? The problem is that there are only registered users who can vote.. so I'd guess you won't get the "average player" :/
20110207 21:42:21< happygrue> Crendgrim: good point.  Circular logic FTW! 
20110207 21:42:29< boucman> sending it in the handshake is easy and if we do a new 1.8.x release, we can say it's a security issue and force an upgrade
20110207 21:42:35< happygrue> *poll even :(
20110207 21:43:08< happygrue> boucman: that sounds quite appealing
20110207 21:43:32< boucman> then we still have to implement the ban logic itself, but it should be not that complicated
20110207 21:47:07< happygrue> If that is enough to stop situations like the other day when users were asking for help and there wasn't a good way to help them then we may not need anything stronger
20110207 21:47:59< happygrue> if I understand correctly, they would ban a copy of the game?  So users would need to recompile or something to get a new ID?
20110207 21:48:33< boucman> if the user is able to modify code, he can just send a random id everytime he connects and there isn't much we can do
20110207 21:48:48< happygrue> I see
20110207 21:48:52< boucman> if not he would have to erase the ID whatever that is...
20110207 21:48:57< happygrue> but that still takes out a lot of the trouble I think
20110207 21:49:08< boucman> if it's a checksum of some hardware ID he would have to change his HW
20110207 21:49:30< boucman> if it's a random number he would have to find where we store it and erase it so the game regenerates a new one
20110207 21:50:19< happygrue> I see
20110207 21:50:56< Crendgrim> A lot of trouble just do annoy some people .. who does things like that? Doesn't people have better things to do? :/
20110207 21:51:22< boucman> Crendgrim: my guess is that most of these are actually pretty young
20110207 21:51:25< happygrue> apparently not
20110207 21:51:26< happygrue> yes
20110207 21:51:57< happygrue> and thus any security that can't be countered by simply installing a spoofing program that is easy to get would eliminate a  lot of the problem (I think)
20110207 21:52:01< Crendgrim> Hopefully those guys only know "I can change my IP and then nobody know who I am"...
20110207 21:52:10< happygrue> right
20110207 21:52:15< boucman> it's pretty immature and has little point, if it was any kind of evangelism I would believe they were adult, but pissing people off just for the fun of being anonymous is a kind thing
20110207 21:52:17< Ivanovic> Soliton: btw at fosdem on saturday one guy in the hacking room mentioned that he is hosting a server for us and would like to migrate it into a virtual machine, asking whom he should contact for this
20110207 21:52:27< Ivanovic> told him to get in touch with you
20110207 21:52:56< Soliton> alright.
20110207 21:53:19< Soliton> hopefully that means newer versions of stuff.
20110207 21:56:50< Ivanovic> no idea
20110207 21:57:08< Ivanovic> and i don't know the (nick)name of the one asking, am just sure that he is german
20110207 21:57:41< CIA-89> mordante * r48439 /trunk/src/gui/widgets/widget.hpp: Add a deprecated comment.
20110207 21:57:49< CIA-89> mordante * r48440 /trunk/src/gui/dialogs/ (65 files in 2 dirs): 
20110207 21:57:49< CIA-89> Add a seperate macro to register a window.
20110207 21:57:49< CIA-89> The code for the tooltips can use one dialog for several windows. This
20110207 21:57:49< CIA-89> means the current register window macros won't work so split the main
20110207 21:57:49< CIA-89> macro in two parts:
20110207 21:57:50< CIA-89> - register the window
20110207 21:57:50< CIA-89> - 'write' the code for the dialog
20110207 21:57:55< CIA-89> mordante * r48441 /trunk/src/gui/widgets/widget.hpp: Fix a copy paste typo.
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20110207 22:03:53< mordante> AI0867, did you contact Kevin who wants to help with the Dutch translation?
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20110207 22:14:19< Soliton> Ivanovic: yeah, pretty sure it's about dicp.de since the tuxfamily server is already a VM. ;-)
20110207 22:14:48< Soliton> i've talked to the admin before but i'd have to dig up the nick. (should be in the forum though.)
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20110207 22:37:39< mordante> I'm off night
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20110207 22:43:25< CIA-89> dragonking * r48442 /trunk/src/ (replay_controller.cpp replay_controller.hpp): Improvement of the wesnoth replay player - this should probably fix bug #16237, since OOS in replay mode was often releated to buttons being pressed too many times
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20110207 23:59:26-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: FOSDEM2011: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/Fosdem2011 | 191 bugs, 309 feature requests, 24 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
--- Log closed Tue Feb 08 00:00:56 2011