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20110215 07:20:42< Salade> hi, i wonder if any MP server maintainer is here. server.wesnoth.org:15000 is up but server.wesnoth.org:14998 is down so we can't connect
20110215 07:22:34< PetePorty> Salade: It is a known problem, and I assume they are working on it. Please use an alternate server.
20110215 07:22:43< PetePorty> http://wiki.wesnoth.org/MultiplayerServers
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20110215 07:25:51< Salade> thx. i know about the alternative servers, I'm just trying to report the problem. btw, anyone know who is the admin/maintainer of the server?
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20110215 07:34:41< timotei> morning
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20110215 10:40:13< Ivanovic> moin
20110215 10:56:17< timotei21> morning Ingmar 
20110215 10:56:20< timotei21> morning Ivanovic 
20110215 10:56:26< timotei21> (autocomplete fail lol)>P
20110215 10:56:29< Ivanovic> :)
20110215 10:57:27< timotei21> lol @silene. after he put the whole Lua into wesnoth, now he leaves :|
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20110215 11:55:28< Ivanovic> loonycyborg: do i remember correctly that you do some lua stuff every now and then?
20110215 11:55:41< Ivanovic> (meaning: we have not suddenly lost all the lua people by losing silene)
20110215 11:57:33< loonycyborg> No. Maybe you mean crab?
20110215 11:58:16< loonycyborg> Mind you that doesn't mean I won't in the future :)
20110215 11:59:16< loonycyborg> But it's regrettable that silene decided to abscond. I would probably use his input with moving to boost.filesystem.
20110215 11:59:55< Ivanovic> hmm, can someone tell me what this error might be about? http://pastebin.com/9N6SjN32
20110215 12:00:04< Ivanovic> happens when starting two brothers now that i completed it once
20110215 12:00:10< loonycyborg> But I waited with that before boost.filesystem v3 makes it to most distros since it handles unicode stuff in totally different way..
20110215 12:01:09< Ivanovic> oaky, i always get it
20110215 12:03:55< zookeeper> it's still very, very unfortunate he left. from my point of view he seemed like more or less our most knowledgeable coder.
20110215 12:04:09< Ivanovic> zookeeper: do you maybe know what could cause this error?
20110215 12:04:18< Ivanovic> IIRC i ain't using lua (directly) in two brothers
20110215 12:04:33< Ivanovic> i get this message right when starting the campaign after the story screens
20110215 12:04:49< Ivanovic> even the initial dialogs are not displayed completely
20110215 12:05:59< Ivanovic> okay, after a rebuild and reinstall it seems to work
20110215 12:06:03< Ivanovic> probably some corrupted file
20110215 12:06:47< zookeeper> Ivanovic, no, i don't see anything obviously wrong, but then again i don't understand how handle_event_commands works
20110215 12:08:39< Ivanovic> fendrin: okay, was now able to test your recruit dialog fixes, now it is possible to recruit in 800x480
20110215 12:10:11< Ivanovic> fendrin: the recall dialog was not changed yet, correct?
20110215 12:25:18< Crab_> Ivanovic: it is on trunk ?
20110215 12:25:38< Ivanovic> Crab_: seems to work now, probably some corrupted file in my local install or something like this
20110215 12:27:39< Crab_> Ivanovic: ok. It looked like a gui2 error wrapped as a lua error message.
20110215 12:28:15< Crab_> so it might had been related to any .cfg/source mismatch
20110215 12:32:34< Crab_> ( and to debug it, an easy (without having to recomple) way to debug it might be to print out the value of 'cfg' in wml-tags.lua:36, just before the   engine_message(cfg)  call. )
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20110215 14:17:29< Ivanovic> loonycyborg: http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=33081
20110215 14:17:44< Ivanovic> loonycyborg: has something gone wrong regarding the removal of tinygui from scons?
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20110215 14:21:15< loonycyborg> Indeed. The install part needs removing too. I expected it to work anyway but it looks like I'll have to deal with it now..
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20110215 14:30:29< CIA-63> loonycyborg * r48530 /trunk/scons/install.py: Remove the install part of tinygui option
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20110215 15:22:31< AI0867> Ivanovic: silene's most recent commits were only 3 days ago, and some more less than a week before that. He just doesn't appear on IRC anymore
20110215 15:23:02< Ivanovic> AI0867: have a look at the dev ml
20110215 15:23:15< Ivanovic> AI0867: he removed himself from gna.org and thus has no commit access anymore
20110215 15:23:29< AI0867> hadn't read that yet
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20110215 15:42:30< eoc> Ivanovic: ping concerning your gsoc mail few days ago (-,
20110215 15:42:56< Ivanovic> eoc: pong
20110215 15:43:44< eoc> I'd like to … well … introduce one of those smaller organisations to you that want to participate this year
20110215 15:43:57< Ivanovic> cool
20110215 15:43:59< Ivanovic> which org?
20110215 15:44:08< eoc> and as such ask in first place if we can refer to wesnoth at all, not much value in there if you don't like us :P
20110215 15:44:23< Ivanovic> sounds sane to me!
20110215 15:44:29< eoc> unknown horizons, a game with the anno series feeling http://www.unknown-horizons.org/
20110215 15:46:20< eoc> since we are small -- or at least short on developers, artists and game designers ;o
20110215 15:46:35< eoc> I wonder if google takes us into account
20110215 15:46:37< Ivanovic> one short comment already regarding the ideas 2011 page: you need to flash this out a whole lot more
20110215 15:47:02< eoc> yep, the stuff is in preparation for about two days now and totally in the making
20110215 15:47:02< Ivanovic> and yeah, google will likely take you into account (even without additional backing), you just have to make sure that there is a decent ideas list for starters
20110215 15:47:40< eoc> we'll have a hard enough time finding more than two or three mentors already involved in UH
20110215 15:47:42< Ivanovic> the ideas list is in general one of the most important things, showing google that you invested some thoughts into stuff and are further than "we want some cheap workers!"
20110215 15:47:55< Ivanovic> yeah, you should rely on people already involved
20110215 15:48:31< eoc> heh, we could probably get cheap workers more easy but we really hope that some people stick with us after the soc
20110215 15:49:32< eoc> I didn't discuss a lot of ideas with some more coders, we need to find better-suited tasks there, most of them won't be enough for 12 weeks I guess
20110215 15:49:59< Ivanovic> be careful that the tasks don't get too big
20110215 15:50:00< eoc> but we plan to use some of them as starting point and ask our students what they could imagine building up on it
20110215 15:50:10< Ivanovic> yeah, sounds sane to me
20110215 15:50:35< eoc> yeah, 'write an AI that beats you in a blast without cheating' didn't make it :o
20110215 15:52:21< eoc> so you'd say that in general we can take our chance, else I won't put a lot more time into the whole thing ;)
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20110215 15:52:57< Ivanovic> of course you can take your chances
20110215 15:53:34< Ivanovic> okay, we will have to somehow sit together which projects we want to back, but IMO yours does not look too bad
20110215 15:53:36< Ivanovic> ;)
20110215 15:53:57< Ivanovic> (it is likely that we can back several projects, but who knows how stuff works out with this years for and what they want which way)
20110215 15:54:09< Ivanovic> personally i am all in favor of more games in gsoc
20110215 15:54:20< elias> 'write an AI that beats you in a blast without cheating' <- the current AI already does that for me :P
20110215 15:54:42< timotei> Ivanovic: yep. More games in gsoc is surely nice
20110215 15:54:42< eoc> hm, right now I mention you in one sentence, removing that is clearly possible if you feel like that
20110215 15:54:43< Ivanovic> elias: not talking about wesnoth but unknown horizons!
20110215 15:54:51< timotei> but how does this function?
20110215 15:54:52< elias> oh
20110215 15:55:00< eoc> hm yup we have quite a way to go before we can reach wesnoth's size :)
20110215 15:55:00< timotei> wesnoth will be like a "mentor" for the new orgs?
20110215 15:55:02< Ivanovic> timotei: by more games applying
20110215 15:55:27< eoc> okay, then I'll have one more week of wiki-wiki to do, still cool (-,
20110215 15:55:34< Ivanovic> timotei: i don't exactly know, but it basically means that we are willing to give some advice to the orgs and stating that they behave good
20110215 15:55:53< timotei> Ivanovic: ok
20110215 15:55:57< Ivanovic> (like eg that they help their students to the best of their capabilities, stuff like this)
20110215 15:56:10< eoc> I'll also have a word to carol about how that's exactly planned
20110215 15:56:29< Ivanovic> a main problem google has is being "sure" that the orgs really stay around, helping the students assigned
20110215 15:56:46< Ivanovic> this is mainly relevant for "really tiny and not too well established" projects
20110215 15:57:00< Ivanovic> those had close to no chance to get in so far
20110215 15:57:18< eoc> yes, that's reasonable for sure
20110215 15:57:33< Ivanovic> with the help of some "well known org" stating "yeah, what they do deserves attention and they will play nice!" is a huge help for those orgs when being looked at
20110215 15:57:35< eoc> I mean … also not fair to the students applying there
20110215 15:58:01< Ivanovic> (remember, they have to review several hundred applications, many of those being not too well known and how to decide which orgs will be "good for the students"?)
20110215 15:58:06< Ivanovic> eoc: yeah
20110215 15:58:23< Ivanovic> the students are one of the major concerns for google, that they are mentored well, the mentors react, stuff like this
20110215 15:58:25< eoc> while we have little manpower, I think our infrastructure is advanced enough to deal with several more coders … if they can be mentored somehow, I set a limit of 2 students at max
20110215 15:58:57< Ivanovic> two students sounds like a sane limit to get to know the whole procedure
20110215 15:59:08< Ivanovic> and make sure not to underestimate the amount of work required with a student
20110215 15:59:36< Ivanovic> some students almost need no help, others need quite some holding their hand to get them confident enough to accomplish the task
20110215 15:59:41< eoc> good advice, I personally won't take two students and do admin work
20110215 16:00:23< eoc> think that will work, our IRC is very polite and helpful to guests and so I think we'll handle 'our' students as well
20110215 16:00:41< Ivanovic> yeah, IRC is in general a good tool for stuff like gsoc
20110215 16:01:00< Ivanovic> what i think is also a good idea is making the students see that they are accepted and got "full rights"
20110215 16:01:25< Ivanovic> (eg in wesnoth they directly work on the main repo, their commits are listed by the bot in irc and their work is part of each new release of trnuk)
20110215 16:01:52< eoc> once we assured that they can properly cope with git (mentor part if there's something to learn), there is no reason to not grant commit rights
20110215 16:02:09< Ivanovic> main benefit of this approach is that you don't have to merge the stuff later on and solve conflicts yourself
20110215 16:02:26< Ivanovic> possible downside is that the students do have the power to (temporarily) break the whole project
20110215 16:03:05< Ivanovic> eoc: once general aproach (not gsoc related) is that we make it easy to get commit access, basically after two to three (non trival) patches you are offered commit access
20110215 16:03:06< eoc> git *could* do merging rather well but we'd decoupple our development from the students' if we separated that. unnecessary with 5 coders at max
20110215 16:03:13< eoc> our releases are all called 'alpha' even if stable enough for beta, so breaking that is no problem :)
20110215 16:04:20< Ivanovic> :)
20110215 16:04:42< eoc> heh, we'd also do that if there were enough people submitting patches. happened two times last year, admittedly we have not enough information on most patch-worthy stuff in our trac right now
20110215 16:04:52< eoc> that needs to be improved for the gsoc-related tasks at least
20110215 16:10:00< Ivanovic> yes, providing some decent "how to best get started" docs is really a help (not only gsoc but also in general)
20110215 16:14:40< eoc> might need to adapt our current how2 a bit though, including gsoc-specific paragraphs like mentoring there
20110215 16:15:13< Ivanovic> eoc: have you had a look at what we send google every year?
20110215 16:15:14< eoc> but that's far away, right now we need to get our application sorted out. thanks for the nice chat! ;o
20110215 16:15:28< Ivanovic> including the "who to contact" part
20110215 16:15:36< Ivanovic> since that is relevant for "non gsoc", too
20110215 16:15:51< Ivanovic> basically a decent "whom shall i ask about ABC?" list
20110215 16:15:58< eoc> yes, I'm reading the dev ML and what you linked there. for us, the 'who to contact' is mostly the same person, sadly :)
20110215 16:16:00< Ivanovic> of course plus the advice: just join irc and ask there
20110215 16:16:15< eoc> I think it's a great part though and will add it to our guide
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20110215 17:09:28< timotei> guys, this is nice: http://nokiaplans.com/
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20110215 19:22:35-!- Topic for #wesnoth-dev: FOSDEM2011: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/Fosdem2011 | 188 bugs, 309 feature requests, 25 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
20110215 19:22:35-!- Topic set by wesbot [~wesbot@wesnoth/bot/wesbot] [Mon Feb 14 11:59:25 2011]
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20110215 20:13:30< Sapient> hi
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20110215 20:18:29< Sapient> can anyone explain the "Lua security" discussion?
20110215 20:22:52< noy> people got upset, someone left in a huff.
20110215 20:23:09< Sapient> I was talking more about the technical aspects ;)
20110215 20:23:22< Sapient> but thanks :)
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20110215 20:24:29< Sapient> I think we need to objectively weigh the pros and cons for continuing with Lua handling the WML engine
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20110215 20:25:29< Sapient> If there are security hazards, or potential security hazards, that is a big strike against it
20110215 20:26:10< elias> "security" probably just meant the lua interpreter can be left in a bad state
20110215 20:26:26< elias> which then causes memory overwrite/crash/whatever
20110215 20:27:13< Sapient> I'm not much of a black-hat hacker so I don't understand how that allows one to compromise a system
20110215 20:28:12< elias> basically, by overwriting memory which then is executed
20110215 20:28:46< elias> so you compile your malicious code, include it as binary data in WML (or as a .png or whatever)... then overwrite memory in a way to it is run
20110215 20:29:03< elias> if you can make WML code crash you can do the same
20110215 20:30:40< Sapient> but wouldn't the OS detect that it is writing to a protected area?
20110215 20:31:47< elias> most OSes don't seem to
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20110215 20:34:00< elias> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buffer_overflow
20110215 20:34:25< elias> "Executable space protection is an approach to buffer overflow protection which prevents execution of code on the stack or the heap. An attacker may use buffer overflows to insert arbitrary code into the memory of a program, but with executable space protection, any attempt to execute that code will cause an exception."
20110215 20:34:44< Espreon> 'Twould be a shame to get rid of Lua support... unless we implement some other way of making WML tags at content-level.
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20110215 20:36:18< Sapient> Espreon: there has long been such a proposal... [set_function]
20110215 20:36:24< Ivanovic> re
20110215 20:36:34< Ivanovic> Sapient: i think noone really understands the problem perfectly
20110215 20:36:40< Ivanovic> s/perfectly/completely
20110215 20:36:52< loonycyborg> Sapient: That's some exception-safety issue.
20110215 20:37:06< Ivanovic> the issue itself is that silene reverted some work by mordante since that causes some possible security probs in the lua stack
20110215 20:37:10< loonycyborg> They disagree about which way is exception safe.
20110215 20:37:15< Sapient> thanks for the link, elias. I'm still trying to understand it
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20110215 20:37:59< Ivanovic> but then, when mordante asked what exactly the problem was (including how to best work around it) silene got rather unfriendly
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20110215 20:39:52< Sapient> well, if the lua implementation is inherently against our coding standards then I can understand why he was upset, because that would be like asking him to revert tons of work
20110215 20:41:44 * Sapient ponders this
20110215 20:43:08< elias> the problems must be like, C++ calls Lua which calls a C++ function, in which an exception occurs
20110215 20:43:26< elias> now the Lua interpreter waits for the function to return
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20110215 22:13:34< Sapient> hmm, well I'm still trying to understand this sentence: "setting gc finalizers and then forcing GUI2 to throw an exception would allow a multiplayer scenario to execute arbitrary code on a remote client."
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20110215 22:13:45< Sapient> hi mordante 
20110215 22:13:52< mordante> servus
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20110215 22:13:54-!- mordante [~mordante@wesnoth/developer/mordante] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110215 22:13:56< mordante> hi Sapient 
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20110215 22:14:19< Sapient> I'm trying to understand the Lua security discussion
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20110215 22:14:50< mordante> will you be around for a while?
20110215 22:14:57< Sapient> yeah, I guess so
20110215 22:15:09< mordante> good then I'll first read the log
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20110215 22:17:11< Sapient> elias linked me to this article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buffer_overflow
20110215 22:17:42< Sapient> but I don't know whether the vulnerability being discussed is stack-based exploitation, heap-based exploitation, or other
20110215 22:18:15< elias> yeah, that was just a guess
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20110215 22:18:35< elias> (but executing arbitrary Lua code wouldn't be much of a vulnerability...)
20110215 22:19:02< mordante> eoc`, the game looks interesting, probably will look at it another time, don't have time at the moment :-(
20110215 22:19:32< eoc`> take your time, I didn't come in here to advertise (-,
20110215 22:20:03< mordante> no but it is still nice to see other games
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20110215 22:25:09< mordante> Sapient, yes as far as I can see it was against our coding standards, but silene was not really helpful to explain things
20110215 22:25:43< mordante> and yes reverting it would be a lot of work
20110215 22:26:19< mordante> however his email regarding moving Lua to our repository left me with a completely different impression
20110215 22:26:57< Ivanovic> i thought the problem with the exceptions was basically solved due to the move to our repo
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20110215 22:27:20< mordante> me too, so I was really surprised when it wasn't
20110215 22:27:53< Sapient> Bringing the standards into the discussion was probably counter-productive....   even if it is against the coding standards, sometimes exceptions can be made (no pun intended).
20110215 22:28:28< mordante> Sapient, I agree, but that should be discussed before doing it
20110215 22:28:50< Ivanovic> and if not discussed at least *mentioned*
20110215 22:29:01< mordante> exactly
20110215 22:29:30< mordante> (which of course will spawn a discussion if somebody disagrees)
20110215 22:29:50< Ivanovic> yeah
20110215 22:30:02< Sapient> regardless, I think the more important question now is to fully understand what are the vulnerabilities and alternatives
20110215 22:30:13< mordante> and this problem should really have been mentioned in the email he send regarding moving Lua to our repo
20110215 22:30:31< Ivanovic> Sapient: sounds like a reasonable and sensible approach
20110215 22:30:50< mordante> Sapient, I agree
20110215 22:30:59< Ivanovic> anyway, i am now lying down and watching a movie, cu
20110215 22:31:07< Sapient> maybe we should post to the Lua mailing list and see if we get laughed off of it like he suggested ;)
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20110215 22:32:23< mordante> I also don't know whether it's possible to install a gc handler which does something bad Wesnoth is terminated normally
20110215 22:33:19< mordante> and I also don't know how insecure my code was, the exception would terminate Wesnoth
20110215 22:35:15< mordante> Sapient, regarding the coding standards also have a look at https://gna.org/bugs/index.php?17743
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20110215 22:36:31< mordante> I don't know which code is exactly handled by Lua and at what level, so I've no idea whether I can safely throw any exception for signaling problems
20110215 22:36:56< Sapient> right... well, using exceptions to control normal program flow is not one of my preferred coding styles, but it is a style used by Wesnoth
20110215 22:38:07< Sapient> apparently it doesn't play well with Lua so he was catching it, setting something, then not throwing it
20110215 22:39:25< Sapient> am I right so far?
20110215 22:39:54< mordante> I haven't looked how he does it
20110215 22:40:15< mordante> 1 sec
20110215 22:42:48< Sapient> although instanes of std::exception would be thrown
20110215 22:44:29< mordante> jup I did see it recently exceptions.hpp
20110215 22:46:00< mordante> so it calls these special exceptions and calls rethrow to really throw them
20110215 22:46:22< mordante> so a hack to make things working properly
20110215 22:47:30< mordante> of course it only stores one exception so if you throw two of them only the last one survives
20110215 22:50:41< Sapient> you mean the so-called "sticky" exceptions?
20110215 22:50:51< mordante> yup
20110215 22:50:56< grzywacz> mordante, priv?
20110215 22:53:48< timotei> :P
20110215 22:54:09< timotei> why not make a #wesnoth-dev-security
20110215 22:54:12< timotei> ^^
20110215 22:54:36< grzywacz> why make it?
20110215 22:54:37< shadowm_laptop> because something like that exists
20110215 22:54:43< grzywacz> :p
20110215 22:54:50< mordante> timotei, priv is different from a chan ;-)
20110215 22:55:30< Sirp> why use private messages at all? you could just make #wesnoth-grzywacz-mordante-private-chat
20110215 22:55:32< timotei> mordante: yeah... but maybe other (devs) would like to follow the discussion too ^^
20110215 22:55:50< grzywacz> maybe I wrote that I love him
20110215 22:56:05< Sirp> maybe it's a message not designed for other devs?
20110215 22:56:10< Sirp> it's not like we're all married to each other.
20110215 22:56:21< mordante> yeah too bad you did it one day too late :-P
20110215 22:56:33< grzywacz> now everyone knows I've been rejected :(
20110215 22:56:44< Sapient> I can already read it because I took over his system with Lua hax
20110215 22:56:55< grzywacz> Except I wrote in Dutch.
20110215 22:57:11< mordante> next weekend another chance, you know the winner takes it all ;-)
20110215 23:02:21 * Sapient sets up some more gc finalizers
20110215 23:06:09< timotei> http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9209580/Apple_s_new_App_Store_rules_affect_Amazon_s_Kindle
20110215 23:06:10< timotei> haha
20110215 23:06:17< timotei> AppStore is getting moar stupid
20110215 23:06:40< Sapient> "When a userdatum is about to be collected and its metatable has a __gc field, Lua calls the value of this field (which should be a function), passing as an argument the userdatum itself."
20110215 23:09:43< Sapient> so mordante's edit would have prevented the __gc function invocation. I still don't see how that allows arbitrary code to be executed
20110215 23:10:44< grzywacz> You should look at how LUAI_TRY is used in the code, I think.
20110215 23:11:09< grzywacz> Also: http://lua-users.org/lists/lua-l/2006-08/msg00005.html
20110215 23:11:32< mordante> me neither especially since the hole I punctured caused Wesnoth to never call Lua again
20110215 23:11:52< mordante> which seems the same as Enigma does in that email
20110215 23:12:10< mordante> (except they keep running and recreate Lua)
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20110215 23:13:53< mordante> but according to silene the code would still be executed when the scenario ends
20110215 23:14:33< Sapient> hmm, well I can see how it would cause memory leaks
20110215 23:16:34< Sapient> but even leaks could be avoided by using the resource acquisition is initialization (RAII) idiom
20110215 23:16:49< mordante> me too and I was aware of memory leaks, but that exceptions ends Wesnoth, so didn't mind leaks
20110215 23:17:37< Sapient> http://wiki.wesnoth.org/HackingWesnoth#Guideline_3:_Use_the_resource_acquisition_is_initialization_.28RAII.29_idiom
20110215 23:29:15< mordante> I'm off night
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20110215 23:48:46< Sapient> have fun, cya later
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20110215 23:59:26-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: FOSDEM2011: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/Fosdem2011 | 189 bugs, 309 feature requests, 25 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
--- Log closed Wed Feb 16 00:00:33 2011