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20110223 10:21:17< Ivanovic> moin
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20110223 16:03:33< Linuturk> I've installed the wesnoth-server package in Ubuntu 10.10, but the server doesn't seem to be starting
20110223 16:05:56< Linuturk> nvm
20110223 16:05:58< Linuturk> stupid me
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20110223 16:11:59< Rhonda> It's intentional that it doesn't start by default.
20110223 16:12:19< Rhonda> It gets implicit started when you want to host a multiplayer game.
20110223 16:14:10 * Rhonda . o O ( and I'm talking to myself again )
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20110223 16:29:54< jo-erlend> I switched to Norwegian in Ubuntu, and I noticed that the Norwegian translation of Wesnoth is both incomplete and erroneous. Is there a Pootle service or something? I think that would be very nice, since it makes it easy for people to translate a little at a time. 
20110223 16:30:52< jo-erlend> I don't know much about how Pootle really works though, except from a user POV, and I don't know anything about how Wesnoth is translated, so.. It's just an idea. :)
20110223 16:31:45< Gambit> You could become a translator. :D
20110223 16:32:00< Gambit> Though I honestly have no idea what that entails.
20110223 16:33:19< jo-erlend> if it's possible, then I think Pootle is a very good choice. It makes it easy to just translate a few strings now and then. It's much easier for users than editing .po-files.
20110223 16:36:10< jo-erlend> also, it enables suggestions, so that translations can more easily evolve over time. 
20110223 16:37:53< jo-erlend> an example: http://pootle.locamotion.org/
20110223 16:39:15< Ivanovic> jo-erlend: i am *extremely* sceptic regarding all the "anyone can jump in for one or two strings"-webtools for translations when it comes to a game
20110223 16:39:34< Ivanovic> jo-erlend: the main problem in a game is consistency, which is *really* difficult to achieve using a webtool
20110223 16:39:50< jo-erlend> Ivanovic: anyone can make suggestions. It is not necessary that anyone can change translations. 
20110223 16:39:53< Ivanovic> besides editing po files is dead simple, just get a poeditor like poedit and hack on
20110223 16:40:18< Ivanovic> yeah, making suggestions helps a lot if there is no active translator (like eg for norwegian IIRC)
20110223 16:40:20< Ivanovic> ;)
20110223 16:40:55< Ivanovic> last norwegian update was in 1.7.0
20110223 16:41:10< Ivanovic> meaning before june 2009
20110223 16:42:15< jo-erlend> exactly. That's why it's smart to make it easy for people to contribute.
20110223 16:42:18< Ivanovic> jo-erlend: if you want to help with this translation you could try to contact gauteamus, if he does not react, you would become the maintainer yourself
20110223 16:42:22< Ivanovic> http://wiki.wesnoth.org/WesnothTranslations
20110223 16:43:04< Ivanovic> jo-erlend: okay, lets assume there are 10 people that suggest something, but noone feels responsible to actually get those into the game, since each that suggests something does so for maybbe 5 strings
20110223 16:43:23< Ivanovic> for a game it does not work nicely using those web interfaces
20110223 16:43:43< jo-erlend> but a po editor makes everything nice? I don't understand that. 
20110223 16:44:04< Ivanovic> it will likely lead to *bad* issues regarding eg units (different ways of translating the elvish fighter making it appear with 5 different "names" thougout the translation, not good!)
20110223 16:44:13< Ivanovic> a poeditor is easy to use, too
20110223 16:44:44< jo-erlend> that's the way it is now, even though people are editing pofiles manually. 
20110223 16:44:46< Ivanovic> and since there *is* some (tiny) entry border it is likely that the work done is consistent (work of the maintainer basically, no problem if he is all alone, if he is not he can tel the others what to use)
20110223 16:45:01< Ivanovic> yes, and what does not work regarding the current way?
20110223 16:45:36< Ivanovic> honestly, getting the whole file and working on it using a dedicated tool is not *this* difficult, right?
20110223 16:45:47< jo-erlend> well. Do lots of people actively contribute to translations? 
20110223 16:45:55< Ivanovic> yes
20110223 16:46:08< Ivanovic> http://wiki.wesnoth.org/Credits#Internationalization_Managers
20110223 16:46:20< Ivanovic> have a look at the area below to see how many have so far contributed
20110223 16:46:26< jo-erlend> not for the Norwegian translations? 
20110223 16:46:52< Ivanovic> yes, lately the norwegian translation is dead
20110223 16:47:04< Ivanovic> though "a while ago" some people have worked on it, too
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20110223 16:49:13< jo-erlend> ok. How does it work now? Do people just download the po-files and mail them to someone, hoping that they might integrate it sometime in the future? 
20110223 16:51:03< Ivanovic> in general you follow this workflow: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/WesnothTranslationsHowTo#How_to_submit_your_translations
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20110223 16:53:55< jo-erlend> ok, so it's like Pootle, except you use mail instead of a browser. And you cannot see conflicts or disagreements, percentages, etc? 
20110223 16:57:42< Ivanovic> stats: http://www.wesnoth.org/gettext/
20110223 16:58:09< Ivanovic> it is basically the maintainers task to assign "areas of work" so that conflicts don't arrise
20110223 17:01:37< jo-erlend> well that doesn't seem to work, since units tend to have different names between scenarios in the same campaign. 
20110223 17:02:23< Ivanovic> jo-erlend: then the translation team is making some serious mistakes
20110223 17:02:41< Ivanovic> jo-erlend: at least it is less likely to happen if you got some people that feel responsible for stuff
20110223 17:02:56< Ivanovic> eg with the german translation this stuff does work this way with >1 active translator
20110223 17:03:49< jo-erlend> yes, of course. That's why I'm suggesting the use of a collaborative po-editor. 
20110223 17:04:07< Ivanovic> like i said, i don't like the idea
20110223 17:04:25< Ivanovic> though as far as it is possible inside the translation teams any tools they want can be used
20110223 17:04:48< Ivanovic> but i won't make those "official" for all teams since i personally am very sceptical that the result can really be good
20110223 17:07:11< jo-erlend> ... I'm unable to comprehend that. Good overview tends to make management easier, which makes it easier to discover mistakes.
20110223 17:07:32< Soliton> what would be needed to support pootle for example?
20110223 17:07:46< jo-erlend> po-files and a webserver? 
20110223 17:08:11< Gambit> It's just that easy! :|
20110223 17:09:11< Soliton> is that a real question or you just can not believe how someone can ask that?
20110223 17:09:38< jo-erlend> as far as I know, that's all you need.
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20110223 17:11:27< Soliton> excellent, we support it then.
20110223 17:11:59< jo-erlend> except for the insane amount of manual labour that's involved. 
20110223 17:13:15< Soliton> oh, how does pootle improve anything then?
20110223 17:14:25< jo-erlend> well, as a maintainer, you can just look at the strings that needs to be looked at, for instance. This makes it easy for people to contribute a little at a time, while still making it possible for people to maintain it. 
20110223 17:14:54< Ivanovic> "you can just look at the strings that needs to be looked at" how is this different from po files?
20110223 17:15:10< Ivanovic> the tools show you exactly which strings are untranslated or fuzzy, so which ones you should look at
20110223 17:16:31< jo-erlend> where do I see that?
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20110223 17:21:27< jo-erlend> I didn't know that po-files themselves had any concept of users and groups, or alternatives, etc? Perhaps I misunderstand? 
20110223 17:24:00< zookeeper> uh, "units tend to have different names between scenarios in the same campaign" wtf?
20110223 17:24:26< jo-erlend> looks that way, anyway. 
20110223 17:25:01< zookeeper> i have no idea what that means.
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20110223 17:27:22< jo-erlend> it's not so important. I can just run it in English. 
20110223 17:27:55 * zookeeper assumes it isn't true, then
20110223 17:28:13< jo-erlend> oh, I'm a liar because I didn't write it down? 
20110223 17:29:17< zookeeper> no, but it seems more likely than not that you're confused because what you said doesn't seem to make any sense and you're not going to clarify it.
20110223 17:29:25 * zookeeper shrugs
20110223 17:32:16< jo-erlend> well, as I said, I don't remember the actual translations, but it was something like archer became shooter when going from one scenario to the next. It wasn't a very big deal, but it was a little confusing. And the mix between Norwegian and English didn't help. 
20110223 17:32:35< Gambit> jo-erlend: If you had some free time some day and wanted to help with the apparently sub-par Norwegian translation: that'd be awesome.
20110223 17:34:55< zookeeper> jo-erlend, sounds like you stumbled into this thing called leveling up?
20110223 17:35:43< jo-erlend> ...
20110223 17:36:34< jo-erlend> Gambit: we'll have to wait and see. 
20110223 17:36:49< zookeeper> no, really, what you're saying doesn't make any sense.
20110223 17:38:29< jo-erlend> also, when I choose to look up information about a unit, the helpfile has a different name for the unit type than is displayed in the game. 
20110223 17:38:47< Espreon> My my...
20110223 17:39:48< jo-erlend> they're both good translations, but the words are very different, making it a little confusing. 
20110223 17:40:35< zookeeper> which unit?
20110223 17:42:03< jo-erlend> that's what I said. I don't remember. It wasn't a very big deal. I just thought that I would see if I could maybe help fix those things. But I don't have too much time. 
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20110223 17:53:00< jo-erlend> it's very difficult to read the forum, btw. Norwegian characters aren't displayed properly: http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=10378&sid=ef89b6d3c66f977e7fd66db4d9bdf392&start=45
20110223 17:54:42< Espreon> Hmmm... one of the crashes must have screwed up the characters.
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20110223 22:08:07< Erfen> Is there anyone here?
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20110223 22:14:37< shadowmaster> definitely not you.
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