--- Log opened Thu Mar 17 00:00:30 2011
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20110317 01:00:34< fendrin> hello
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20110317 01:04:59< Espreon> Hello.
20110317 01:05:07< fendrin> hi Espreon
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20110317 05:59:26-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: 1.9.5 planned once the Khalifate are in | 185 bugs, 304 feature requests, 21 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
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20110317 10:38:48< CIA-52> ivanovic * r48925 /trunk/po/wesnoth-editor/fr.po: updated French translation
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20110317 13:14:09< fendrin> hello
20110317 13:23:18< Max20010> wesbot, seen timotei
20110317 13:23:18< wesbot> Max20010: The person with the nick timotei last spoke 1d 15h ago.  1d 15h ago they left with the message: Quit: SIGKILL
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20110317 13:54:40< Espreon> http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?p=482302#p482302 ... Hmmmm... interesting.
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20110317 14:02:55 * Nephro has figured out a way how to implement his "supergreat" AI idea in the existing system... yesterday's beer must've helped
20110317 14:04:03< Nephro> And it's actually better than reimplementing the whole system again... Crab_ must've really looked to the future, when he designed the existing one :)
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20110317 16:00:04< timotei> hi
20110317 16:00:12< timotei> Max20010: did you look for me?
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20110317 16:17:28< Ivanovic> moin
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20110317 17:27:57< Crab_> grigoryj: please also note that lua allows to redefine WML on the fly, to some extent
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20110317 17:59:36< Guest53734> wesbot, seen crab_
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20110317 17:59:46< Guest53734> Argh
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20110317 18:19:04< iwontbecreative> Ivanovic: Nice, I see you already recieved first mail of the new maintainer :)
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20110317 18:37:08< Soliton> Nephro: you could just present your idea here and then he can read it in the log when he has time (and others can already comment).
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20110317 19:27:35< Nephro> Well, my idea is about improving Wesnoth's AI. As far as I understood, at the moment it consists of a cycle, that evaluates possible moves and makes them in a certain order, after which tries to cycle through the blacklisted ones. Is that correct?
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20110317 19:31:56< Nephro> Well, you can correct me if I am wrong.
20110317 19:36:50< Nephro> I didn't find any info about the plans of the AI... It only has a goal and tries to reach it evaluating all the moves possible in one turn. It must be very sophisticated to implement an AI that plans its actions, and would require massive refactoring. Then I thought about the existing system and ways of improving it. I don't see how planning could be added to the current system, that's why we can make a whole other sy
20110317 19:36:50< Nephro> stem that does the planning. Why do we need the old one then? Very simple: we still have the same loop, but now the evaluating functions ask the planning system, how good is the move, and modifies its return value by the result.
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20110317 19:39:08< Nephro> The planning system mustn't even be too sophisticated. The simplest form that I see it is a graph, the vertices of which have "weights". Now when a candidate action(e.g. move) asks the graph how good is the move, we just find the region in a graph and return some of it's weights. The graph in this case would represent our current force formation, formation of enemy forces, weak spots in it, etc.
20110317 19:40:36< Nephro> Similar thing could be done with other actions, like recruiting for example. We analyse known enemy unit combinations and recruit counters. Possibilities are endless :)
20110317 19:41:00< Nephro> This also solves the problems described in "Why is it hard to make an AI for Wesnoth" wiki page
20110317 19:43:56< Nephro> I'll drop up for a restart
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20110317 20:19:31< mordante> servus
20110317 20:20:48< mordante> grigoryj, do you have questions regarding the schema project?
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20110317 20:41:28< CIA-52> mordante * r48926 /trunk/src/gui/dialogs/mp_create_game.hpp: Minor code cleanup.
20110317 20:41:31< CIA-52> mordante * r48927 /trunk/src/text.cpp: Minor code polishing.
20110317 20:41:32< CIA-52> mordante * r48928 /trunk/ (changelog src/text.cpp): Implemented underline in the gui2 font style.
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20110317 21:14:56< mordante> I'm off bye
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20110317 21:21:49< Max20010> wesbot, seen timotei
20110317 21:21:49< wesbot> Max20010: The person with the nick timotei last spoke 5h 21m ago.  4h 30m ago they left with the message: Quit: SIGKILL
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20110317 21:24:45< Max20010> timotei: i'm going to report a couple of bugs from the eclipse plugin. but i'd like to make sure that those don't fall in the same category. the log isn't particularly helpful. is there an option to log more details?
20110317 21:25:33< vdaras> hey, Crab, just wanted to report that I've made progress with the task. I've also tested my code using the lua-enabled scenario (subtituted the lua code there with mine) and the results are satisfying. Maybe you want to see the code and tell me what I've done correctly or missed?
20110317 21:25:51< Crab_> hi
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20110317 21:26:06< Crab_> vdaras: well, I can take a look, of course
20110317 21:26:49< vdaras> okay, should I upload the file somewhere or use paste bin?
20110317 21:28:34< Max20010> timotei: tried debugging, but it's quite painful and too slow. some of the bugs are rather obvious - do you have a list of know problems?
20110317 21:28:54< Crab_> pastebin is ok
20110317 21:29:01< Crab_> or PM to Crab on wesnoth's forums
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20110317 21:33:14< Crab_> zookeeper: hello. There are some patches committed that make 'side=1' no longer a default value for some of WML direct action tags. do you agree that this is a right course of action ?
20110317 21:35:41< vdaras> Crab_, using a code tag in PM messes a little bit the identation of the code, are you ok with that?
20110317 21:36:02< Crab_> yes. usually, it's better to attach diffs or files :)
20110317 21:36:18< vdaras> ah, ok, I'll send you the file
20110317 21:37:57< vdaras> ok, a PM is sent
20110317 21:38:38< vdaras> an overview of the implemented functionality is this:  
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20110317 21:38:51< vdaras> If there is not an enemy unit in radius
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20110317 21:39:12< vdaras> it moves the unit to the next patrol location
20110317 21:39:31< vdaras> else it checks if it has enough movement left in order to attack the closest enemy unit
20110317 21:39:55< vdaras> also, when a unit reaches the next patrol location it checks again for enemies
20110317 21:41:33< eoc> Nephro: ^
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20110317 21:47:02< vdaras> of course there are tons of C/C++ callbacks that can be written in order to enhance the lua system
20110317 21:47:13< vdaras> actually, some pretty basic functions are missing
20110317 21:49:34< Crab_> vdaras: yes, you're right
20110317 21:50:06< vdaras> I've already started implementing a c++ callback to calculate the distance between two locations
20110317 21:50:19< Crab_> vdaras: distance by pathfinding ?
20110317 21:50:55< vdaras> no, distance of based on hex coordinates
20110317 21:51:03< vdaras> distance based *
20110317 21:51:44< vdaras> It's easy but I needed it for the patrol code
20110317 21:52:28< vdaras> If you wish I can write more of them, like calculating an enemy_units list (the one that exists in fai)
20110317 21:54:02< Crab_> note that there's no particular need to redo things which are already possible to do via existing callbacks, unless existing code is slower. 
20110317 21:54:15< Crab_> for example, there's a function which allows to get units based on a unit filter
20110317 21:54:32< Crab_> and there's a side filter which allows to pick just enemy units
20110317 21:54:47< Crab_> so, they can be combined (in a lua function) to give a function which returns a list of all enemies
20110317 21:55:01< Crab_> of course, getting the units directly might be faster.
20110317 21:55:21< vdaras> actually, the list would be pre-calculated
20110317 21:55:32< vdaras> no need to calculate it for every turn
20110317 21:55:46< vdaras> that's why I thought it would be useful
20110317 21:56:02< Crab_> note that the list of units can change after each and every action
20110317 21:56:06< Crab_> this includes movements
20110317 21:56:20< Crab_> for example, a WML event can change *anything* on map after a move
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20110317 21:56:57< Crab_> so, when thinking of 'precalculated' things, note that some of them should be invalidated after gamestate change (see how ai aspects are now done )
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20110317 21:57:18< vdaras> you are right, but having already a list of enemies should simplify the process of filtering out changes
20110317 21:57:43< vdaras> or at least it seems easier to me :)
20110317 21:58:11< Crab_> unfortunately, no
20110317 21:58:27< Crab_> at least that would require some backend changes
20110317 21:58:37< Crab_> to allow units to 'track' their 'versions', for example.
20110317 21:58:59< vdaras> okay, I should not argue about things that you have a much better idea on how they work
20110317 21:59:16< Crab_> vdaras: well, you can agrue, it's ok.
20110317 22:01:03< Crab_> for example, about 'implementing a c++ callback to calculate the distance between two locations'...
20110317 22:01:23< vdaras> heh heh, I'll argue when I have something useful to contribute
20110317 22:01:26< Crab_> if you have, in lua, 4 coordinates (a,b) and (c,d), can't you do it in lua without the c++ callback ?
20110317 22:01:36< vdaras> yeap, I did it
20110317 22:02:00< Crab_> then why code a c++ callback if we can just make/expand a table with all kinds of utility functions ?
20110317 22:02:13< Crab_> (in lua without callbacks)
20110317 22:02:34< vdaras> because sometimes a scripting language can be used by people who are not programers
20110317 22:02:41< vdaras> themselves
20110317 22:02:44< Crab_> and ?
20110317 22:02:53< Crab_> the syntax for them can be the same, isn't it ?
20110317 22:02:53< vdaras> so, It would be better to provide the functionality
20110317 22:03:07< Crab_> I agree that this is a 'should have' function
20110317 22:03:23< Crab_> I'm just wondering 'is there a need for a c++ callback for that ?'
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20110317 22:04:27< vdaras> sure you can implementing using lua, it wouldn't make much difference speedwise anyway
20110317 22:04:37< vdaras> implement*
20110317 22:04:58< Crab_> and what style you'd prefer ? 
20110317 22:05:07< vdaras> I prefer c/c++
20110317 22:05:25< Crab_> ok. in this case, yes, it can be done in c++ as a callback.
20110317 22:05:42< Crab_> the thing is, it's better to make things work in a uniform way :)
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20110317 22:06:38< vdaras> Whatever works for the team :)
20110317 22:07:26< vdaras> the fact that I like coding in c/c++ better, doesn't mean that I don't like doing it in lua too
20110317 22:07:31< Crab_> then, I think, there's a need to make a 'c++ - based playground' for this stuff.
20110317 22:07:41< Crab_> because lua.cpp is 3.5k lines long
20110317 22:08:10< Crab_> I think that it's better to have a separate file for those small callbacks, it will be easier this way
20110317 22:08:26< Crab_> originally, all c++ lua callbacks were put in 1 file and it ended up rather long
20110317 22:08:41< vdaras> it would be nice to categorize them
20110317 22:08:42< Crab_> and 'core' lua code and 'extension stuff' is mixed together
20110317 22:09:02< Crab_> yes, at least to have a 'core stuff for wesnoth-lua integration' and 'utility functions'
20110317 22:09:19< vdaras> like "gui stuff go here, map stuff go there" etc.
20110317 22:09:28< Crab_> yes, that can be fine, too
20110317 22:09:50< Crab_> so, what I suggest doing is to see if you can add a easy way to make that 'playground' for the new c++ stuff related to lua integration
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20110317 22:10:32< Crab_> at first, avoid touching existing code a lot, see if you can plug-in somewhere easily
20110317 22:11:21< Crab_> there's also a BIG need to separate 'info' code and 'action' code cleanly.
20110317 22:11:49< vdaras> we can seperate them using libraries, split luastdlib
20110317 22:12:05< Crab_> now most of the things are in "wesnoth" table
20110317 22:12:23< vdaras> yeap, and unit stuff is located at "ai" table
20110317 22:12:33< Crab_> and, for example, put_unit and get_village_owner are in the same place
20110317 22:13:06< Crab_> but calling  put_unit from the AI is a bad idea (human can't put arbitrary units on map without breaking the rules and replays)
20110317 22:13:14< Crab_> and get_village_owner is a perfectly good function to call.
20110317 22:15:26< Crab_> also note that 'distance' is not a ai-dependent function
20110317 22:15:42< Crab_> because the c++ implementation doesn't need an ai context to make its work.
20110317 22:16:01< Crab_> so, it should be put (if implemented) into a generic non-ai table
20110317 22:16:38< Crab_> and stuff like 'enemy_units' are ai-dependent - because enemy_units is dependent on 'current_team()' from ai context.
20110317 22:16:51< Crab_> so, stuff like 'enemy_units' should be added to the ai table
20110317 22:17:29< vdaras> good
20110317 22:18:03< vdaras> I sense there is a pitfall splitting c++ callbacks to several tables, but my naive mind can't tell me where it is
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20110317 22:18:40< Crab_> vdaras: one of the pitfalls is that if we later change our mind about the categories, it's hard to move stuff without breaking existing code
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20110317 22:19:23< Crab_> vdaras: so, let's do it this way: find the '// Put some callback functions in the scripting environment.' place in lua.cpp
20110317 22:19:27< vdaras> hmm, that's a tricky one
20110317 22:19:47< Crab_> then, find a way to add some things to this 'wesnoth' table from a different .cpp file
20110317 22:20:23< Crab_> so, we'll have, say,          a src/scripting/lua_util.cpp which will contain some new callbacks which will go into the same 'wesnoth' table.
20110317 22:20:34< vdaras> can't we include the header declaring the new functions and register them the same way?
20110317 22:20:53< Crab_> whatever way will work for you.
20110317 22:21:03< Crab_> just avoid duplicating code/names.
20110317 22:21:23< vdaras> sure..
20110317 22:22:10< Crab_> for example, see how it's done in /wesnoth/src/ai/registry.cpp
20110317 22:22:19< zookeeper> Crab_, i agree that all sides makes more sense as a default than side 1, but it seems like it can't be wmllinted perfectly, which makes me kinda split on the issue.
20110317 22:22:29< fendrin> hi Crab_, zookeeper
20110317 22:22:55< Crab_> fendrin: hi, fendrin
20110317 22:22:57< vdaras> except from the function that calculates the distance between locations, is there anything else you already have in the list? I take it some of the fai functions woulld be nice to have. (judging from the GSoC page concerning ai)
20110317 22:23:15< Crab_> vdaras: most of the fai stuff are ai-dependent, so they'll go into ai table
20110317 22:23:31< vdaras> ah, ok
20110317 22:25:37< Crab_> zookeeper: empty unit filter is 'match all' or 'match none' ?
20110317 22:26:28< Crab_> zookeeper: the reason why I'm asking is for sides to have consistent behavior with the units/location
20110317 22:26:37< vdaras> I need to call it a night now, long day at the university :). If there is any feedback you can give me on the patroling code, I would appreciate it if you sent me a PM or an e-mail
20110317 22:26:44< Crab_> vdaras: ok
20110317 22:26:51< vdaras> good night all
20110317 22:27:02< Crab_> night
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20110317 22:28:21< zookeeper> Crab_, AFAIK the default is now "match all"
20110317 22:28:38< zookeeper> i don't recall which tags have been changed though or how consistent everything is now
20110317 22:28:49< Crab_> zookeeper: well, then 'no side= and no [side_filter] = match all' is a better way to handle things
20110317 22:28:57< Crab_> but the problem is that now everything is unconsistent
20110317 22:29:07< Crab_> some of the tags were changed, some were not changed
20110317 22:29:12< Crab_> and that's pretty bed.
20110317 22:29:16< Crab_> s/bed/bad
20110317 22:30:17< Crab_> so, I want to fix it, one way or another, so we'll not stay 'in between'
20110317 22:30:28< Crab_> zookeeper: what's the best way to handle this ?
20110317 22:31:03< Crab_> we can either revert all the patches, restore the side=1 behavior. or we can turn every stone in 1.9 to make sure 'side=1' is no longer default in all tags we know of.
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20110317 22:47:23< zookeeper> Crab_, i don't know, really. :/
20110317 22:48:22< zookeeper> if it gets messy then i guess i'd rather just go back to the side=1 behavior
20110317 22:48:29< Crab_> zookeeper: ok. I'll  try escalating to the dev-ml, then.
20110317 22:48:44< Crab_> zookeeper: I want to fix it, one way or another, *before* it gets messy
20110317 22:49:11< Espreon> Crab_: Don't revert the effects on the tag implementations, just remove the "no side= = all" behavior... if that's where we're going.
20110317 22:50:59< Crab_> Espreon: yes, I was thinking about it.. treat no side= as error, and use an empty standard side filter ([filter_side]) in all the tags as a way to mark 'for all sides'.
20110317 22:51:24< Crab_> Espreon: but I don't want to decide by myself, I want to reach some kind of agreement..
20110317 22:51:37< Espreon> OK.
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20110317 22:53:36< zookeeper> Crab_, i have no more time now, but i'll keep an eye on what appears on the ml...
20110317 22:53:46< Crab_> zookeeper: ok, thanks
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20110317 22:56:52< Nephro> Crab_, did you take a look on my flood up there?
20110317 22:57:05< Crab_> hi, Nephro
20110317 22:57:11< Nephro> Evening :)
20110317 22:57:31< Crab_> I've seen in the logs that you said you've found a way to implement your idea in context of current ai framework
20110317 22:57:49< Crab_> but I guess that I haven't seen the 'flood up there' yet.
20110317 22:58:20< Nephro> :) Well, if you have a minute, check it out, it might be interesting
20110317 22:59:24< Crab_> ok, I'll do
20110317 23:09:31< Nephro> BTW, I see vdaras seems to be working in the same direction that I do, only a bit faster. How would that affect my further steps? I mean, I was about to start working on the patrol code, should I just go ahead or tackle a different problem?
20110317 23:10:03< Crab_> Nephro: well, do whatever will show your abilities more.
20110317 23:10:21< Crab_> Nephro: if we get accepted, all the 'good' students will get a chance to prove themselves.
20110317 23:10:51< Crab_> Nephro: so, pick a plan and stick to it, and collaborate with others, as well
20110317 23:11:52< Nephro> But BfW probably can't accept two(or more) students for 1 idea, and atm I was putting all my effort studying Lua and the structure of Wesnoth AI
20110317 23:12:33< Crab_> Nephro: 'accepting 2 students for the similar idea' happened in the past.
20110317 23:13:05< Crab_> Nephro: and, not all ideas get at least 1 student accepted
20110317 23:13:32< Crab_> Nephro: for example, that was the case with AI last year - we haven't picked anyone for the AI, because the proposals for the other ideas were 'better'
20110317 23:13:54< eoc> Ivanovic: hey, around?
20110317 23:13:59< Crab_> Nephro: so, tomorrow you'll see if we're accepted or not, and, if yes, just stick to your plan.
20110317 23:16:04< Crab_> Nephro: I've read your idea. well, the current system allows it because the priorities of the candidate actions are not set in stone - a CA can return any score it wishes. in fact, we've (with boucman) planned for the eventual implementation of some system which will be able to tell (to any CA) what does it think about a particular move.
20110317 23:16:28< Crab_> Nephro: so, you'll be able to plug it in. the challenge lies in picking things that will work :)
20110317 23:17:02< Crab_> Nephro: however, focus on lua and lua/c++ integration things first - they are important to get accepted. and, the project will include time for the cool stuff, as well.
20110317 23:20:25< Nephro> Could you, in that case, give me a little hint on what to tackle, since I've learnt how to expose functions to Lua. You mentioned some  particular things earlier, but I couldn't seem to find them in the logs
20110317 23:21:36< Crab_> ai has a number of 'aspects' of different types.
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20110317 23:21:47< Crab_> those aspects are parameters, which have values which can change from time to time
20110317 23:21:58< Crab_> some of them never change
20110317 23:22:08< Crab_> some are recalculated rarely
20110317 23:22:13< Crab_> some are recalculated each turn
20110317 23:22:34< Crab_> sme are recalculated after each move (on demand)
20110317 23:22:41< Ivanovic> eoc: only *very* partial (meaning about 1min per hour)
20110317 23:23:02< Crab_> Nephro: we need to let the lua ai know the values of those aspects.
20110317 23:23:10< eoc> don't bother then :)
20110317 23:23:49< Crab_> Nephro: code the callbacks to expose them. try to do it in generic way to include a 'cache' mechanism to avoid recalculating stuff if it's already calculated and not yet invalidated
20110317 23:24:23< Crab_> Nephro: the code is in src/ai/composite/aspect.hpp
20110317 23:24:33< Crab_> Nephro: it's both for c++ and formula ai.
20110317 23:24:53< Nephro> Is there any existing caching mechanism in Wesnoth or should I implement a simple one myself?
20110317 23:25:06< Crab_> Nephro: see how it's done for c++ and formula_ai, in this file.
20110317 23:25:27< Crab_> Nephro: I think that the way to go is to modify that file to support a 'generic' cache mechanism for aspects
20110317 23:25:48< Crab_> Nephro: I suggest starting with simple aspects like aggression and caution.
20110317 23:26:04< Crab_> Nephro: they are evaluated to simple 'double' c++ values.
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20110317 23:26:59< Crab_> aspect is an event observer
20110317 23:27:10< Crab_> and it's base class has logic to set valid_ to false on specific events
20110317 23:27:25< Crab_> when we get a value, we check if it's valid_, if not, we recalculate and do translation, if needed
20110317 23:27:47< Crab_> there's a c++ representation and a fai representation
20110317 23:27:53< Crab_> you need a lua representation, too
20110317 23:28:07< Crab_> and you need a way to convert between them
20110317 23:28:20< Crab_> in most cases, the value is calculated in c++ representation
20110317 23:28:27< Crab_> on first access.
20110317 23:28:53< Crab_> and, the formula_ai representation is also recalculated on first access, based on translation of c++ one.
20110317 23:28:57< Crab_> you can do the same with lua
20110317 23:29:32< Crab_> bonus points  if you would allow lua representation to be the 'initial' one, too (this would allow to write the aspects in lua and allow fai/c++ to get their values from conversion from lua)
20110317 23:31:14< Crab_> typesafe_aspect is the  main class in that file
20110317 23:31:34< Crab_> composite_aspect is just a delegating aspect, which is backed by a group of typesafe_aspects
20110317 23:32:14< Crab_> pay particular attention to virtual boost::shared_ptr<T> get_ptr() const and virtual boost::shared_ptr<variant> get_variant_ptr() const
20110317 23:33:07< Crab_> it might be that you will need to add something like ' virtual boost::shared_ptr<reference_to_lua_table_index> get_lua_representation_ptr() const ' to it
20110317 23:33:09< Crab_> --
20110317 23:35:06< Crab_> get the basic stuff done and then code the full cache-enabled thing for simple aspect like 'aggression'.
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20110317 23:44:11< Nephro> Ok, thanks for the info... I'll try to "interpret" it tomorrow, since it's kind of late already :)
20110317 23:44:19< Nephro> Ow, didn't get to thank him ;[
--- Log closed Fri Mar 18 00:00:30 2011