--- Log opened Sun Mar 20 00:00:49 2011
20110320 00:02:11-!- Johannes13 [~Johannes@unaffiliated/johannes13] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110320 00:06:11-!- _jay [~jay@cpe-67-240-147-107.rochester.res.rr.com] has left #wesnoth-dev []
20110320 00:08:46-!- mordocai [~mordocai@66.119.9.243] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110320 00:08:47-!- zookeeper [~l@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
20110320 00:12:52-!- zookeeper [~l@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110320 00:14:08-!- epyon|gsoc [~IceChat77@89-75-60-248.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
20110320 00:20:46-!- mordocai [~mordocai@66.119.9.243] has quit [Quit: restarting x server]
20110320 00:21:50-!- mordocai [~mordocai@66.119.9.243] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110320 00:25:29-!- mordocai [~mordocai@66.119.9.243] has quit [Client Quit]
20110320 00:25:59< Ivanovic> wesbot: seen noy
20110320 00:26:00< wesbot> Ivanovic: The person with the nick noy last spoke 4d 3h ago.  4h 45m ago was here and on the channels #wesnoth and #wesnoth-umc-dev with the message: Quit: noy
20110320 00:26:14-!- mordocai [~mordocai@66.119.9.243] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110320 00:28:00-!- zookeeper [~l@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has quit []
20110320 00:45:09< vultraz> gtg
20110320 00:48:29-!- epyon|gsoc [~IceChat77@89-75-60-248.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110320 01:09:31-!- Johannes13 [~Johannes@unaffiliated/johannes13] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
20110320 01:29:14-!- molgrum_ [molgrum@h-188-178.A189.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110320 01:30:17-!- molgrum [~molgrum@h-188-178.A189.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20110320 01:41:59-!- mordocai [~mordocai@66.119.9.243] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
20110320 01:57:22-!- automagic [~karol@87-205-160-84.adsl.inetia.pl] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110320 02:02:35-!- Noyga [~noyga@wesnoth/developer/noyga] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
20110320 02:22:57-!- Skizzaltix [~chatzilla@66.92.79.71] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.15/20110303024001]]
20110320 03:06:34< shadowmaster> mordante: regarding http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?p=481831#p481831
20110320 03:06:52< shadowmaster> won't reverting that change mess with the supposed improvements to portrait downscaling?
20110320 03:07:21< shadowmaster> s/won't/didn't/
20110320 03:08:23< shadowmaster> IIRC the original commit was part of a series of changes intended to improve portrait downscaling to pave the way for the removal of most of the 205x205 copies in the datafiles path
20110320 03:14:45-!- eoc [~eoc@pD95605E5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
20110320 03:17:58-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110320 03:27:13-!- eoc [~eoc@pD956185D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110320 03:27:30-!- GeorgeSebastian [~georgeSeb@unaffiliated/georgesebastian] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110320 03:28:05-!- Nephro [~Dmitry@cpc3-broo2-0-0-cust73.14-2.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
20110320 03:30:34-!- Appleman1234 [~Appleman1@CPE-60-226-179-130.qld.bigpond.net.au] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110320 03:31:58-!- srk9 [~richard@unaffiliated/srk9] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20110320 03:36:48-!- Ptival [~Ptival@dyn128-54-183-131.ucsd.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20110320 03:50:51-!- loonycyborg [~sergey@wesnoth/developer/loonycyborg] has quit [Quit: Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz]
20110320 03:51:09-!- loonybot [~loonybot@wesnoth/bot/loonybot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20110320 03:52:11-!- eoc is now known as eoc|off
20110320 04:43:14-!- Elvish_Pillager [~eli@71-10-224-192.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
20110320 04:46:00-!- Ivanovic_ [~ivanovic@dtmd-4d0bcacd.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110320 04:46:00-!- Ivanovic_ [~ivanovic@dtmd-4d0bcacd.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Changing host]
20110320 04:46:00-!- Ivanovic_ [~ivanovic@wesnoth/developer/ivanovic] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110320 04:50:12-!- Ivanovic [~ivanovic@wesnoth/developer/ivanovic] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
20110320 04:52:01-!- Ivanovic_ is now known as Ivanovic
20110320 04:52:41-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20110320 04:54:39-!- Gambit [~Gambit@wesnoth/developer/grickit] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out]
20110320 05:28:18-!- Octalot [~noct@host86-182-34-223.range86-182.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20110320 05:30:32-!- Appleman1234 [~Appleman1@CPE-60-226-179-130.qld.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20110320 05:36:12-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has quit [Quit: noy]
20110320 05:45:03-!- Ptival [~Ptival@dyn-128-54-179-48.ucsd.edu] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110320 05:45:16-!- Ptival [~Ptival@dyn-128-54-179-48.ucsd.edu] has left #wesnoth-dev []
20110320 06:06:48-!- codebox [~codebox@59.94.242.178] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110320 06:06:50-!- Octalot [~noct@host86-182-34-223.range86-182.btcentralplus.com] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110320 06:30:05-!- PetePorty [~pete@unaffiliated/peterporty] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20110320 06:30:33-!- shadowm_laptop [ignacio@wesnoth/developer/shadowmaster] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
20110320 07:25:49-!- crimson_penguin [~ben@wesnoth/developer/crimsonpenguin] has quit [Quit: crimson_penguin]
20110320 07:28:50-!- dtiger [~dtiger@dynamic-vpdn-93-125-12-28.telecom.by] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110320 08:07:06-!- Blueblaze [~Blueblaze@adsl-76-202-16-172.dsl.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110320 08:16:00-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110320 08:17:25-!- mordante [~mordante@roadie.xs4all.nl] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110320 08:17:25-!- mordante [~mordante@roadie.xs4all.nl] has quit [Changing host]
20110320 08:17:25-!- mordante [~mordante@wesnoth/developer/mordante] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110320 08:17:56< mordante> servus
20110320 08:20:54< mordante> shadowmaster, I looked at the results for the portraits before committing as well and I think the downscaled portraits still were good
20110320 08:26:32-!- GeorgeSebastian [~georgeSeb@unaffiliated/georgesebastian] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
20110320 08:26:47-!- mjs-de [~mjs-de@vpw.wh.uni-dortmund.de] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110320 08:26:54-!- boucman [~rosen@wesnoth/developer/boucman] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110320 08:32:25-!- stikonas [~and@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110320 08:43:59-!- epyon|gsoc [~IceChat77@89-75-60-248.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
20110320 08:49:42-!- GeorgeSebastian [~georgeSeb@unaffiliated/georgesebastian] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110320 08:54:58-!- GeorgeSebastian [~georgeSeb@unaffiliated/georgesebastian] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
20110320 09:05:30-!- 77CAAA8PD [~iwaim@rasteenie.alib.jp] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20110320 09:05:49-!- iwaim [~iwaim@rasteenie.alib.jp] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110320 09:11:01-!- Appleman1234 [~Appleman1@CPE-60-226-179-130.qld.bigpond.net.au] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110320 09:14:00-!- Crendgrim [~crend@77-22-173-219-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110320 09:18:16-!- stikonas [~and@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20110320 09:27:36-!- stikonas [~and@ctv-213-164-115-159.vinita.lt] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110320 09:27:36-!- stikonas [~and@ctv-213-164-115-159.vinita.lt] has quit [Changing host]
20110320 09:27:36-!- stikonas [~and@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110320 09:35:41-!- MeccaGod [~majs@h14n4fls31o279.telia.com] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110320 09:44:47-!- Blueblaze [~Blueblaze@adsl-76-202-16-172.dsl.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Blueblaze]
20110320 09:57:08-!- stikonas [~and@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20110320 09:57:18-!- negusnyul [~negusnyul@dsl91EC8AB2.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110320 09:58:16-!- codebox_ [~codebox@59.94.251.40] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110320 09:59:08-!- codebox [~codebox@59.94.242.178] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
20110320 10:06:10-!- zookeeper [~l@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110320 10:09:46-!- stikonas [~and@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110320 10:14:04-!- User596 [~User@180.215.25.118] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110320 10:17:36-!- codebox__ [~codebox@59.94.247.208] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110320 10:18:24-!- User596 [~User@180.215.25.118] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
20110320 10:18:41-!- codebox_ [~codebox@59.94.251.40] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
20110320 10:23:30-!- User461 [~User@180.215.25.118] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110320 10:27:56-!- User461 [~User@180.215.25.118] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
20110320 10:30:32-!- Noyga [~noyga@AVelizy-151-1-44-8.w82-124.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110320 10:30:32-!- Noyga [~noyga@AVelizy-151-1-44-8.w82-124.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Changing host]
20110320 10:30:32-!- Noyga [~noyga@wesnoth/developer/noyga] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110320 10:31:49-!- CharlieM [~Charlie@c-69-180-141-47.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110320 10:34:48-!- Sytyi [~chatzilla@90-117-133-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110320 10:38:16-!- stikonas [~and@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out]
20110320 10:41:09< Sytyi> Good time of day for everybody. I want to take part in Google Summer of Code. I want to thank all of you for such a good documentation for GSoC participants. I want to try to work with your project. Can I speak with any body about WML Validation. What language is needed. I have a little expirience in C++ & Java. I'm from Ukraine, and I hope to meet any Russian developer. Thank's to everybody.
20110320 10:42:49< boucman> Sytyi: hello, i'm not the most versed in WML validation, but I can provide the basics until someone more knowledgable lurks around...
20110320 10:43:15< boucman> and one of our main developers (Crab_) is also from ukraine if language is a problem
20110320 10:44:02< boucman> whatever GSOC project you want to go for, the first step is to download and compile trunk, so you can start looking at the source
20110320 10:45:28-!- codebox__ is now known as codebox
20110320 10:45:39< mordante> Sytyi, what do you want to know about WML validation?
20110320 10:47:45< Sytyi> Thank you, boucman
20110320 10:48:10< Sytyi> What language is needed? 
20110320 10:49:41< mordante> our main codebase in C++ for scripting we use Python
20110320 10:50:16< mordante> the validation needs to extract data from the C++ sources, which probably can be best done with a scripting language
20110320 10:50:39< mordante> next it needs to validate the WML files against the extracted data
20110320 10:50:55< Sytyi> I can write an analyzer in C++ we are studying it at this moment in Univercity and it interest's me
20110320 10:51:20< mordante> you don't need a C++ analyzer ;-)
20110320 10:51:30< mordante> how familiar are you with Wesnoth?
20110320 10:52:10< Sytyi> i've heard about it first in Friday
20110320 10:54:21< mordante> ok, then let's start at the beginning of the explaination
20110320 10:54:39< mordante> Wesnoth uses it's own markup/script language WML 
20110320 10:55:26< Sytyi> yes
20110320 10:55:32< mordante> 1 sec
20110320 10:57:12< mordante> in our C++ we have special annotated comments for example http://devdocs.wesnoth.org/canvas_8cpp_source.html
20110320 10:57:44< mordante> a python script (wiki_grabber.py) generates wiki pages from it for example http://wiki.wesnoth.org/GUICanvasWML
20110320 10:58:20< mordante> the idea of the schema validation is to use the comment in the C++ code to generate some kind of validation schemes
20110320 10:58:49< mordante> are you familiar with XML Schema's?
20110320 10:59:00< Sytyi> yes
20110320 10:59:37< mordante> ok good
20110320 11:00:20< mordante> so the C++ should generate something like these schemas (but you're free to propose a different format)
20110320 11:00:52< mordante> then the game engine can test whether the WML file confirms to the schema and if not give a warning/error
20110320 11:01:27< mordante> and it would be a bonus if there is a stand alone programme to do this validation as well
20110320 11:01:45< mordante> (maybe a special command line option for wesnoth)
20110320 11:01:45< Sytyi> this annotated comments are generated or typed by developers?
20110320 11:02:04< mordante> the annotated comments are typed by a developer
20110320 11:02:05-!- Cookiee [~quassel@unaffiliated/cookiee] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110320 11:02:25< mordante> and it would be great if the wiki information and schema information can be combined
20110320 11:02:48< Sytyi> and wiki could be generated by this tool
20110320 11:03:15< mordante> yes or by the tool that's already there
20110320 11:03:30< mordante> it may or may not become one tool
20110320 11:03:43< mordante> but the wiki part is already done
20110320 11:04:30< Sytyi> and if shema is not valid, the tool wil show errors
20110320 11:04:53< mordante> yes
20110320 11:05:05< Sytyi> error messages help to develop schema
20110320 11:05:22-!- timotei [~timotei@wesnoth/developer/timotei] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110320 11:05:51< Sytyi> maybe tool will have GUI 
20110320 11:06:01< Sytyi> and maybe only command line
20110320 11:06:36< Sytyi> all information about WML I can read in WIKI
20110320 11:06:53< mordante> at least command line since that allows automation by scripts
20110320 11:09:13< Sytyi> validation includes grammar and semantic analysys
20110320 11:09:49< mordante> yes
20110320 11:09:52< Sytyi> on input tool have CPP file
20110320 11:10:02< Sytyi> and on output? 
20110320 11:10:43< mordante> on the input you have a text file and you filter on /**WIKI(.*)*/ which happens to work nicely in C++
20110320 11:11:10< mordante> the output for the wiki is defined, for the schema not, that will be a part of the GSoC project
20110320 11:11:38< mordante> the information regarding the usage of WML can be found here http://wiki.wesnoth.org/ReferenceWML
20110320 11:12:27< mordante> also keep in mind WML has macros, which like C-preprocess macros just expand to text
20110320 11:12:48< mordante> the engine already does the macro expansion
20110320 11:14:25< Sytyi> thank you. 
20110320 11:14:52< Ivanovic> moin
20110320 11:14:57< mordante> what scripting languages are you familiar with?
20110320 11:14:59< mordante> hi Ivanovic 
20110320 11:15:34< Ivanovic> noy: around?
20110320 11:15:41 * mordante gives Ivanovic no time to wake up and throws a wiki frontpage reminder to him ;-)
20110320 11:15:42< Ivanovic> noy: got two things:
20110320 11:15:57< noy> ?
20110320 11:15:57< Sytyi> No scripting languages
20110320 11:16:10< noy> about to go to bed
20110320 11:16:18< Sytyi> only C++ Java
20110320 11:16:25< noy> I guess we probably did take in a new mentor at one point?
20110320 11:16:30< Ivanovic> 1) please make sure to either give me the address data for gsoc mentor org registration (i have again, like with everything so far) used my pivate data for the org itself, even though it is now an inc and should have data
20110320 11:17:08< Ivanovic> 2) what is the status of the khalifate? yeah, IMO it is *really* time for a 1.9.5 release (even if the khalifate are not 100% perfect)
20110320 11:17:23< noy> apparently I have both my emails account linked to different gsoc events
20110320 11:17:38< noy> So I just used the one you sent and registered
20110320 11:18:02< Ivanovic> noy: what i mean is that you should go here: http://socghop.appspot.com/gsoc/org/home/google/gsoc2011/wesnoth
20110320 11:18:03< noy> I was going to work on the Khalifate tomorrow
20110320 11:18:27< Ivanovic> select "Edit Organization Profile" in the left pane and enter the "real" wesnoth inc data instead of my privat address
20110320 11:18:41< Ivanovic> since you are registered as admin you should have the power to do so
20110320 11:18:50< Ivanovic> re khalifate: good
20110320 11:19:51< mordante> Sytyi, ok, do you think you can pick up something like Python fast?
20110320 11:19:51< noy> uhhhhh
20110320 11:20:03< noy> crap.. I have to get it from Dave
20110320 11:20:24< Ivanovic> then please do so and maybe mail me the data, too (so that i got it in future)
20110320 11:20:28< mordante> Sytyi, doesn't need to be fluent Python (in fact the script I wrote has been polished by somebody more fluent in Python)
20110320 11:20:55< Sytyi> I think i have 2 month left
20110320 11:21:06< Sytyi> so 1 month fo r study
20110320 11:21:18-!- Johannes13 [~Johannes@unaffiliated/johannes13] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110320 11:21:26< Sytyi> * in Univercity
20110320 11:21:45< Sytyi> mmmmm
20110320 11:21:53< noy> Ivanovic: I've left your number in
20110320 11:22:01< noy> because you're the main contact for this, right?
20110320 11:22:07< Ivanovic> yeah
20110320 11:22:09< noy> Address is now the organizational address 
20110320 11:22:10< Sytyi> I think  I can study a bit of Python
20110320 11:22:15< Ivanovic> good
20110320 11:23:14< CharlieM> there is a full CSci course from MIT up on Youtube that uses Python, might be good to skim that (I wish Youtube had a way to increase playback speed to get through lectures fast if you just want a primer)
20110320 11:23:15 * boucman originally learnt perl by reading the script generating units.wesnoth.org
20110320 11:23:15< mordante> Sytyi, I think if you study wiki_grabber.py you already know the amount of Python required for the project
20110320 11:23:48< Ivanovic> noy: yeah, for gci you used the account "neuhausercova"
20110320 11:23:56< noy> *shrug*
20110320 11:24:00< noy> either or
20110320 11:24:07< noy> so long as its private
20110320 11:24:14< Ivanovic> noy: you could send yourself an invite for this account, resign as admin from the other one and update the wiki info
20110320 11:24:14< noy> did you read my mail to the gsoc mailing list?
20110320 11:24:19< Ivanovic> no
20110320 11:24:23< Ivanovic> topic/thread?
20110320 11:24:32< noy> its this outside mentors discussion
20110320 11:24:37< Sytyi> Thank you mordante. 
20110320 11:24:37< Ivanovic> (am currently barely able to follow anything)
20110320 11:24:56< mordante> you're welcome
20110320 11:25:17< Sytyi> I will read about Python
20110320 11:25:33< Sytyi> and last question. 
20110320 11:26:43< Sytyi> As you think should I send a proposal or I should study more
20110320 11:29:13< mordante> what do you mean with send a proposal?
20110320 11:30:12< Ivanovic> Sytyi: time for submitting proposals has not started yet
20110320 11:30:23< Ivanovic> Sytyi: and in general the proposal is created during some talks
20110320 11:30:38< Sytyi> Should I participate in GSoC or no. I'm only 3rd year stydier 
20110320 11:30:51< Ivanovic> you have a look at things, ask us questions and eventually you will be at the place where you have "your" version of the idea complete
20110320 11:31:07< Ivanovic> Sytyi: we had a first termer last gsoc and he was successful!
20110320 11:31:10< Ivanovic> (and is still around)
20110320 11:31:22 * Ivanovic looks at timotei
20110320 11:31:30< Sytyi> Thank you Ivanovic! You filled my soul with hope
20110320 11:31:42-!- deekay [~dk@wesnoth/developer/dragonking] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110320 11:31:46< mordante> Sytyi, in summer of code we expect students, not long term developers
20110320 11:32:21< mordante> did you read our questionaire?
20110320 11:32:37< Sytyi> I'm interesting in language translators and parsers, and we are studying them now. 
20110320 11:32:54< Sytyi> what do you mean  by questionaire
20110320 11:33:31< Ivanovic> http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SoC_Information_for_Google#Does_your_organization_have_an_application_template_you_would_like_to_see_students_use.3F_If_so.2C_please_provide_it_now._Please_note_that_it_is_a_very_good_idea_to_ask_students_to_provide_you_with_their_contact_information_as_part_of_your_template._Their_contact_details_will_not_be_shared_with_you_automatically_via_the_GSoC_2011_site.
20110320 11:33:33< mordante> http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SoC_Information_for_Google#Does_your_organization_have_an_application_template_you_would_like_to_see_students_use.3F_If_so.2C_please_provide_it_now._Please_note_that_it_is_a_very_good_idea_to_ask_students_to_provide_you_with_their_contact_information_as_part_of_your_template._Their_contact_details_will_not_be_shared_with_you_automatically_via_the_GSoC_2011_site.
20110320 11:33:48< mordante> seems Ivanovic is still faster ;-)
20110320 11:33:57< Sytyi> Yes
20110320 11:33:58< Ivanovic> :)
20110320 11:34:41< mordante> Sytyi, if you want to apply to summer of code for Wesnoth you can make a wiki page and fill that with your idea
20110320 11:34:43< Ivanovic> Sytyi: basically we request "our" students to fill out this (huge) list of questions
20110320 11:35:09< mordante> and fill in the questionaire on that page as well
20110320 11:35:24< Ivanovic> that is: personally i'd say that you should create the wiki page about your project and can already fill out the questionaire in some textdoc and just leave those answers in the google tracker
20110320 11:35:31< mordante> once Google allows you to apply you can use the wiki page as base for you google application
20110320 11:35:42< CharlieM> how many students are you able to accept?
20110320 11:35:48< Sytyi> ok, now I understood. I was leading by http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SummerOfCodeIdeas
20110320 11:35:58< Sytyi> lists of steps from there
20110320 11:35:59< mordante> CharlieM, not sure yet
20110320 11:36:08< Ivanovic> (the "not listing questionaire on wiki page" is a case of having the privat info not available to everyone)
20110320 11:36:27< Sytyi> Thank you Ivanovic and mordante
20110320 11:36:35< mordante> you're welcome
20110320 11:36:42< Sytyi> Sorry for spending your time.
20110320 11:37:34< Ivanovic> no need to apologize
20110320 11:37:36< mordante> no problem
20110320 11:38:09< mordante> if we didn't want to spend time on students we shouldn't have applied to GSoC ;-)
20110320 11:38:18-!- Crab_ [~Crab_@wesnoth/developer/crab] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110320 11:38:59< CharlieM> How long have you guys been involved with Wesnoth, and how did you first get started?
20110320 11:42:10< mordante> I've been involved for about 4.5 years and started with the PythonAI, but switched to the terrain system shortly afterwards
20110320 11:42:45< Ivanovic> hi Crab_
20110320 11:42:53< Crab_> hi, Ivanovic
20110320 11:42:57< Ivanovic> Crab_: sent you an invite to the account you used for gci
20110320 11:43:07< boucman> i've been around since 2003 IIRC, I started by creating the ReferenceWML wiki pages
20110320 11:43:26< boucman> 2004 apparently
20110320 11:43:54< Ivanovic> hmm, when was 0.8.2 released? i think i was around since about that time
20110320 11:44:07< Ivanovic> (meaning slightly before the move to gettext)
20110320 11:44:21< CharlieM> This will be my first time venturing out into the world of open source, at least with the intent of becoming a developer/contributer, lots to learn
20110320 11:44:56< Crab_> Ivanovic: accepted the invite
20110320 11:45:32< Ivanovic> CharlieM: ah, it is not too difficult to get in, open source folks (that are not from the kernel!) tend to be welcoming
20110320 11:45:41< Ivanovic> (the kernel ML is a bitch!)
20110320 11:45:57< Crab_> I'm with wesnoth since 2009 (I played it a lot in 2008, but not as a dev). I came for gsoc2009 and started working on the AI
20110320 11:46:07-!- EdB [~edb@89.82.194.231] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110320 11:46:29< CharlieM> have you guys had a lot of success with past GSoC students?
20110320 11:46:52< mordante> afk
20110320 11:47:25< codebox> hello all
20110320 11:49:32< codebox> I am for GSoC here and wanted to work on the extension of Wesnoth AI to lua
20110320 11:50:58< Crab_> hello, codebox
20110320 11:51:06< codebox> hello
20110320 11:51:15< deekay> AI seems to be as popular as usual.
20110320 11:51:28< Crab_> Sytyi: (reading the logs...) and where are you studying ?
20110320 11:52:06< codebox> I am currently downloading the source and will work for completing the pre GSoC tasks which you have stated on the wiki page 
20110320 11:52:07< Sytyi> Chernigiv Politechnick University
20110320 11:52:22< CharlieM> What brought me here was actually the sprite sheet implementation project, I cringed a little when I read that you use individual png's for everything
20110320 11:52:29< Crab_> Sytyi: ok, thanks. (I'm from Kiev)
20110320 11:54:16< codebox> some suggestions for me... to start working for AI I currently know python, C++ and lua
20110320 11:54:18< timotei> CharlieM: here is the info regarding the success: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SoC_Information_for_Google#If_your_organization_participated_in_past_GSoCs.2C_please_let_us_know_the_ratio_of_students_passing_to_students_allocated.2C_e.g._2006:_3.2F6_for_3_out_of_6_students_passed_in_2006.
20110320 11:56:35< CharlieM> thanks
20110320 11:56:44< timotei> yw
20110320 11:56:54< Crab_> codebox: have you played wesnoth before ?
20110320 11:57:23< codebox> I have played similar games currently I am downloading the source
20110320 11:57:52< Crab_> then the first suggestion is to play a bit, to become familiar with the gameplay concepts.
20110320 11:58:01< codebox> I think it is similar to civilization 4
20110320 11:58:30< Crab_> then, check the way we configure the AI.
20110320 11:58:46< codebox> sure
20110320 11:58:49< Crab_> ( http://wiki.wesnoth.org/Customizing_AI_in_Wesnoth_1.8#how_AI_works.2C_a_short_developer-oriented_overview contains an explanation )
20110320 11:59:11< Crab_> then, check out the lua ai test scenario /wesnoth/data/ai/scenarios/scenario-lua-ai.cfg
20110320 11:59:32< Crab_> and find out how it works, and why and when the lua elements get executed
20110320 11:59:44< CIA-89> ivanovic * r48945 /trunk/ (86 files in 29 dirs): 
20110320 11:59:44< CIA-89> created po files for an Old English translation as requested by Espreon
20110320 11:59:44< CIA-89> TODO: update g.w.o, add locale files in data/languages/, add stuff to about.cfg, add a font entry for the required (not shipped by default) font
20110320 12:00:17< Crab_> then, you'll be ready to do some more interesting pre-gsoc tasks
20110320 12:02:17< codebox> thanks
20110320 12:02:54< Crab_> also, skim through http://wiki.wesnoth.org/LuaWML and http://wiki.wesnoth.org/LuaAI
20110320 12:03:11< CharlieM> Do you recall how many applications you received last year?
20110320 12:03:20< Crab_> CharlieM: ~35
20110320 12:03:43< Crab_> not all of them got actually submitted to google, though.
20110320 12:03:57< codebox> Is there some minimum time before I should complete these preGSoC tasks
20110320 12:03:59< CIA-89> ivanovic * r48946 /website/gettext.wesnoth.org/langs.php: add old english to g.w.o
20110320 12:04:26< Crab_> codebox: no. we will consider and rate all applications
20110320 12:04:35< CharlieM> so how do things work on your end? You get the applications, figure out which you think are up to par, send them off to Google, and they approve some of them?
20110320 12:04:53-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has quit [Quit: noy]
20110320 12:04:59< Crab_> codebox: if a tasks turns out too hard, just talk about it, or pick another.
20110320 12:05:43< Ivanovic> CharlieM: not exactly
20110320 12:06:00< codebox> no prob I will try to complete them as early as I can
20110320 12:06:13< Ivanovic> CharlieM: google at the end just says "okay, you get up to X slots, how many of those do you really want/need?" and we decide on our selves which ones to take
20110320 12:06:25< Ivanovic> googles only tasks are providing infrastructure and payment
20110320 12:06:36< CharlieM> ah. that would make more sense
20110320 12:06:47< Crab_> CharlieM: talk with the students, figure out the quality of the applications, talk with students again, encourage them to show their best, and, near the end, conduct interviews with the students to figure out their talents and determination, and them rate the students and then talk with google, as Ivanovic said.
20110320 12:07:23< Ivanovic> CharlieM: and the X depends on things like number of applications the org got and stuff like this
20110320 12:07:27< CIA-89> espreon * r48947 /trunk/src/language_win32.ii: Added Windows locale association for 'ang'.
20110320 12:07:59< Ivanovic> (so if there are say 10000 applications over all of the project and one org has 100 applications google would (in the first round) basically offer 1% of the available slots to this org
20110320 12:08:40< Ivanovic> (okay, it is not directly done on an "offering" basis but more on a way of "orgs say what they can manage and google hands out accordingly to numbers plus some bartering afterwards for the last slots)
20110320 12:10:27-!- timotei [~timotei@wesnoth/developer/timotei] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20110320 12:11:17-!- timotei [~timotei@89.43.196.13] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110320 12:11:18-!- timotei [~timotei@89.43.196.13] has quit [Changing host]
20110320 12:11:18-!- timotei [~timotei@wesnoth/developer/timotei] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110320 12:11:18< Espreon> Wow, I have to do 'svn add ang_GB@latin.cfg@' for it to work.
20110320 12:11:26< Ivanovic> yes
20110320 12:11:36< Ivanovic> an @ inside filenames is a freaking problem
20110320 12:12:41< Espreon> ... and I have to do complicated shit instead of 'svn propdel X *'.
20110320 12:12:48< Espreon> Isn't svn awesome?
20110320 12:13:59< CIA-89> espreon * r48948 /trunk/data/languages/ (ang_GB.cfg ang_GB@latin.cfg): Added Old English locales.
20110320 12:17:31< CIA-89> espreon * r48949 /trunk/data/hardwired/fonts.cfg: Cover the runic plane with Junicode.
20110320 12:19:32< Espreon> Ivanovic: Hmmmm, it bitches about the missing font file.
20110320 12:19:36< Espreon> I don't like that.
20110320 12:24:52< Ivanovic> are you sure that the name entries are correct?
20110320 12:25:44< Ivanovic> and since those entries should be runes only: is there anything speaking against this being added at the *end* of the list, even behind the asian langs?
20110320 12:26:17< Espreon> Well, not right now. Do what you wish.
20110320 12:26:26< Espreon> Also, yes, the name is correct.
20110320 12:27:58< Espreon> Well, I technically have it, but most aren't going to have the font.
20110320 12:28:38< Ivanovic> that is why it should be at the end
20110320 12:29:10< Espreon> OK.
20110320 12:29:24< Ivanovic> and yeah, you should provide a name for the runic version of old english in "latin" chars, too (chars covered by dejavu)
20110320 12:30:00< Espreon> Already done.
20110320 12:32:56< Ivanovic> then it should be no problem, especially if the lang is listed at the end
20110320 12:33:57< Ivanovic> though i am not sure how to best handle the new font in regards to translations (since the font string is translateable)
20110320 12:34:28< Ivanovic> meaning: this will create a fuzzy string and result in all langs that *don't* use the default order being set to default order until the string is fixed/updated
20110320 12:35:24< CIA-89> espreon * r48950 /trunk/data/hardwired/fonts.cfg: Did some reordering.
20110320 12:35:25< Espreon> Just blindly fix it and contact the maintainers?
20110320 12:35:59< Ivanovic> yeah, that is basically the only way to go (though i don't want to do this for 50 po files)
20110320 12:36:18< Espreon> It's not like you're fixing over nine thousand po files.
20110320 12:39:55< Ivanovic> WOW
20110320 12:40:04< Ivanovic> in trunk all languages currently use the default ordering
20110320 12:40:12< Ivanovic> so no problem there at all when writing a pofix rule
20110320 12:43:30-!- stikonas [~and@ctv-213-164-115-159.vinita.lt] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110320 12:43:30-!- stikonas [~and@ctv-213-164-115-159.vinita.lt] has quit [Changing host]
20110320 12:43:30-!- stikonas [~and@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110320 12:47:38-!- stikonas [~and@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
20110320 12:48:45-!- stikonas [~and@ctv-213-164-115-159.vinita.lt] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110320 12:48:45-!- stikonas [~and@ctv-213-164-115-159.vinita.lt] has quit [Changing host]
20110320 12:48:45-!- stikonas [~and@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110320 12:48:49-!- MeccaGod [~majs@h14n4fls31o279.telia.com] has quit []
20110320 12:50:23-!- Sytyi [~chatzilla@90-117-133-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86.1 [Firefox 4.0/20110303194838]]
20110320 12:56:29-!- Elvish_Pillager [~eli@71-10-224-192.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110320 13:00:02-!- Appleman1234 [~Appleman1@CPE-60-226-179-130.qld.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
20110320 13:09:10-!- Mussious [~kamil@dfx222.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110320 13:11:32< Ivanovic> okay, updated the frontpage with the gsoc2011 news
20110320 13:11:46< Ivanovic> (and moved all pre 2011 news over to the wiki pages "older news")
20110320 13:11:49< Crab_> great
20110320 13:11:53-!- automagic [~karol@87-205-160-84.adsl.inetia.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
20110320 13:12:10-!- automagic [~karol@87-205-160-84.adsl.inetia.pl] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110320 13:12:59< mordante> Ivanovic, the year is wrong 2010
20110320 13:13:23< Ivanovic> what is wrong where?
20110320 13:13:33< Crab_> it's 2011 :)
20110320 13:13:40< Crab_> Accepted in Google Summer of Code 2011     Sunday, March 20 2010 
20110320 13:14:13< Crab_> Ivanovic: and, maybe make the word 'IRC' in 'and also join our IRC channel' to be a link to http://freenode.net/using_the_network.shtml  ?
20110320 13:14:42< mordante> but further looks fine to me
20110320 13:15:34-!- stikonas [~and@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out]
20110320 13:16:46< Ivanovic> Crab_: what about making it an "irc" link?
20110320 13:17:06< Crab_> well, I think that some of the potential students don't know how to use IRC
20110320 13:17:18< Crab_> so they'll be faster 'in' if they have some pointer
20110320 13:20:09< Ivanovic> please refresh
20110320 13:20:32< Ivanovic> Crab_: left two pointers, one a "direct" irc: link, the other a link to freenode about "how to use it"
20110320 13:20:42< Ivanovic> and i changed the logo to the bigger version with url
20110320 13:20:42< mordante> looks great 
20110320 13:22:33-!- stikonas [~and@ctv-213-164-115-159.vinita.lt] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110320 13:22:34-!- stikonas [~and@ctv-213-164-115-159.vinita.lt] has quit [Changing host]
20110320 13:22:34-!- stikonas [~and@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110320 13:25:27< Ivanovic> Espreon: i will now mass fix the font string to the new version (using pofix.py)
20110320 13:26:14< Espreon> Huzzah!
20110320 13:30:13< Crab_> great
20110320 13:31:22-!- eoc|off is now known as eoc
20110320 13:31:30-!- Blueblaze [~Blueblaze@adsl-76-202-16-172.dsl.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110320 13:32:33< Ivanovic> eoc: and congrats to being accepted in, too!
20110320 13:32:51< eoc> Ivanovic: thanks :)
20110320 13:33:08< eoc> guess I'll have some further questions from now on though (-,
20110320 13:33:23< Ivanovic> eoc: don't hesitate to ask
20110320 13:33:24< Ivanovic> ;)
20110320 13:34:50< eoc> first of all I have to thank you for supporting our application, I think t'was very, very important :)
20110320 13:35:21< eoc> and everything else can wait some more time! currently handling a lot of interested students already
20110320 13:35:35< Crab_> eoc: good luck to you in gsoc :)
20110320 13:35:55< CIA-89> ivanovic * r48951 /trunk/ (57 files in 2 dirs): 
20110320 13:35:55< CIA-89> add a rule to fix the font string automagically for translations
20110320 13:35:55< CIA-89> NOTE: the rule line will automatically generate a warning for an already fixed string (because this is what happens if just something is appended)
20110320 13:36:28< eoc> Crab_: thank you!
20110320 13:36:32< mordante> nice to hear eoc and good luck
20110320 13:36:44< Ivanovic> eoc: your main tasks will be to find a process that is usable for you in selecting the students
20110320 13:36:58-!- Nephro [~Dmitry@cpc3-broo2-0-0-cust73.14-2.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110320 13:37:05< eoc> to you as well, heh now I again do advertising in your channels, I should stop that habit at some point :)
20110320 13:37:14< Ivanovic> though since you are a smaller project it should be possible to have all mentors have a rough look over all projects and judge based on this
20110320 13:37:49< eoc> Ivanovic: since we have indeed 5 mentors at most (including me there), the only issue with getting them together is timezones
20110320 13:38:01< eoc> we have agreed on only one student per mentor for our first year
20110320 13:38:02< mordante> eoc, we ask patches of students, and I think that helps a lot to separate the wheat from the chaff
20110320 13:38:31< eoc> so everybody can pick (and already did) ideas he'd like to support, and we will have a meeting to discuss changes concerning this
20110320 13:38:45< eoc> mordante: yes, we already have students working on some of our tickets for this reason :)
20110320 13:38:56< mordante> nice
20110320 13:39:15< eoc> I also blatantly copied large parts of your application template :o
20110320 13:39:52< mordante> well like I said yesterday, open source is about sharing ;-)
20110320 13:41:09< Ivanovic> eoc: one student is already plenty
20110320 13:41:28< eoc> yep, indeed, especially if none of us has previous mentoring experience
20110320 13:41:28< Ivanovic> eoc: personally i'd even recommend: make sure to at least have one potential "spare" mentor at hand
20110320 13:41:35< eoc> we have :)
20110320 13:42:13-!- EdB [~edb@89.82.194.231] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20110320 13:42:13< eoc> one idea is intentionally mentored by two mentors, and everything else can have at least one replacement mentor without loss of quality
20110320 13:42:20-!- Nephro [~Dmitry@cpc3-broo2-0-0-cust73.14-2.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
20110320 13:43:16< Ivanovic> in general our process is that every application submitted to google gets at least two reviews from different people (meaning admins/mentors) pointing out things missing and waiting for improvement
20110320 13:43:50< Ivanovic> those things also include "make sure to join our irc chan and talk to us about your project idea" (if the student is/was not around yet)
20110320 13:44:43< Ivanovic> when the proposals are being commented the ones looking over them already tend to rate stuff (a little) to provide a very initial idea if the project is worth considering at all or not
20110320 13:45:14< Ivanovic> later on, in some "close to end" meeting we discuss on which students to focus more, what to ask of some where we are not sure yet and stuff like this
20110320 13:45:18-!- Dmitry [~Dmitry@cpc3-broo2-0-0-cust73.14-2.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110320 13:45:20< Ivanovic> and at the end we meet for "final ranking"
20110320 13:45:44-!- Dmitry is now known as Guest56686
20110320 13:46:14< eoc> hmm, so you mail them of your own accord for improvements? I plan to do this together with our mentors, but it looks like we will have a huge lot of applications
20110320 13:46:32< Ivanovic> no, this stuff is done in the google tracker where you have to enter the ratings, too
20110320 13:46:42< Ivanovic> and yeah, you will get many applications, we usually have >30
20110320 13:47:05< Ivanovic> you enter this stuff in the google tracker
20110320 13:47:12< eoc> ah, okay. irc is the most important part of our development, so if students are not familiar with it, they need to get so as fast as possible
20110320 13:47:15< Ivanovic> we tend to make use of both, the public and the privat comments
20110320 13:47:33< Ivanovic> public comments for the students so that they can directly see what should get some more attention
20110320 13:47:50< Ivanovic> and private ones for stuff like "is around in irc, asks good questions, ..."
20110320 13:48:04-!- MeccaGod [majs@h14n4fls31o279.telia.com] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110320 13:48:11< Ivanovic> eoc: the most common comments that i remember off hand:
20110320 13:48:28< Ivanovic> 1) please join irc to discuss things (major development platform for us and mandatory)
20110320 13:48:48< Ivanovic> 2) you need a(n improved) timetable
20110320 13:49:16< Ivanovic> 3) the project is too ambitious, please tune it down, eg by marking some things purely optional
20110320 13:49:48< Ivanovic> 4) we'd like to see some code samples
20110320 13:51:01< eoc> now I probably need to introduce this to our mentors in the first place :)
20110320 13:51:12< Ivanovic> our experience so far was that about 1/3 of the applications are really in the "good" area where you have to think about things (students being enthusiastic, providing code samples, idea well thought, ...)
20110320 13:51:22-!- Gambit [~Gambit@wesnoth/developer/grickit] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110320 13:51:41< Ivanovic> eoc: you should somehow gather a list of what you expect from an application and the student behind it
20110320 13:51:59< Ivanovic> eoc: and mention those things that are missing or need more work in the privat comments
20110320 13:52:01< eoc> internally (for rating) or public list?
20110320 13:52:14< Espreon> Ivanovic: Hmm, OE's not appearing at g.w.o
20110320 13:52:19< Ivanovic> IMO both
20110320 13:53:38< Ivanovic> Espreon: good catch, looks like svn is frozen again (some lock still left)
20110320 13:54:09-!- stikonas [~and@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20110320 13:54:26< eoc> I will need to save this log somewhere easily accessible for me, thanks a bunch :)
20110320 13:54:41< timotei> eoc: there is always available on the web
20110320 13:54:50< timotei> eoc: http://www.wesnoth.org/irclogs/2011/03/%23wesnoth-dev.2011-03-20.log
20110320 13:55:03< Ivanovic> eoc: IMO it makes sense to let the students know what you base your decission on
20110320 13:55:14< Ivanovic> eoc: so students should be informed where they lack
20110320 13:55:32< Ivanovic> and of course you should also use this as "internal" rating, too
20110320 13:55:54< eoc> yes, just that we need to gather our project-related points about this first, so publishing an eager list might be counterproductive
20110320 13:56:00< Ivanovic> (so far our experience is that most devs basically agree on most of the things when looking over the applications)
20110320 13:56:07< eoc> timotei: ah, thank you
20110320 13:57:28-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110320 13:57:34< timotei> yw
20110320 13:58:18< Ivanovic> eoc: what has proven rather useful is having a "mentors only" chan
20110320 13:58:31< Ivanovic> (that is not logged in public like the other chans are)
20110320 13:58:39< Ivanovic> this way you can talk in private about the rating stuff
20110320 13:58:57< eoc> our channel is only privately logged, but yes, I registered one invite-only.
20110320 14:00:25-!- loonybot [~loonybot@wesnoth/bot/loonybot] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110320 14:00:40< eoc> we'd give away dev accounts to view them very easy, but making the logs completely public is something I won't be able to achieve
20110320 14:00:58-!- loonycyborg [~sergey@wesnoth/developer/loonycyborg] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110320 14:01:12< Ivanovic> things always depend on what you have established in your project as "works nicely for us"
20110320 14:10:31-!- yabo [~trewe@87.196.0.126] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110320 14:12:27-!- codebox [~codebox@59.94.247.208] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
20110320 14:14:29-!- nagbot [~nagbot@wesnoth/bot/nagbot] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110320 14:14:41-!- Blueblaze [~Blueblaze@adsl-76-202-16-172.dsl.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Blueblaze]
20110320 14:21:07-!- Mussious [~kamil@dfx222.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat]
20110320 14:23:55-!- codebox [~codebox@59.94.240.75] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110320 14:26:45-!- stikonas [~and@ctv-213-164-115-159.vinita.lt] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110320 14:26:45-!- stikonas [~and@ctv-213-164-115-159.vinita.lt] has quit [Changing host]
20110320 14:26:45-!- stikonas [~and@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110320 14:26:45-!- rigved [~rigved@116.72.163.243] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110320 14:27:08-!- stikonas [~and@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has quit [Client Quit]
20110320 14:27:25-!- stikonas [~and@ctv-213-164-115-159.vinita.lt] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110320 14:27:25-!- stikonas [~and@ctv-213-164-115-159.vinita.lt] has quit [Changing host]
20110320 14:27:25-!- stikonas [~and@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110320 14:27:46-!- boucman [~rosen@wesnoth/developer/boucman] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
20110320 14:31:37-!- stikonas_ [~and@84.32.245.15] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110320 14:31:38-!- stikonas_ [~and@84.32.245.15] has quit [Changing host]
20110320 14:31:38-!- stikonas_ [~and@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110320 14:33:01-!- stikonas [~and@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
20110320 14:34:35-!- yabo [~trewe@87.196.0.126] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20110320 14:40:21-!- mjs-de [~mjs-de@vpw.wh.uni-dortmund.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20110320 14:40:26-!- stikonas__ [~and@ctv-213-164-115-159.vinita.lt] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110320 14:40:52-!- stikonas_ [~and@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out]
20110320 14:53:21-!- stikonas__ [~and@ctv-213-164-115-159.vinita.lt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20110320 14:58:06-!- Guest56686 is now known as Nephro
20110320 15:07:33< Nephro> Good day... I noticed some debug logging methods used in the source, is there any document describing them? I am writing a simple thing, which will still need some debug(as simple as dropping an integer to some output stream)
20110320 15:14:56< Crab_> Nephro: just look at any source file...
20110320 15:15:16< Crab_> they can be enabled by adding '--log-debug=foo,bar' to command-line args for wesnoth
20110320 15:15:25< Crab_> you just add a macro with any name for the log domain
20110320 15:15:31< Crab_> and then you can use this log domain
20110320 15:15:56< Crab_> i.e.     static lg::log_domain log_engine("engine"); #define DBG_NG LOG_STREAM(debug, log_engine) #define LOG_NG LOG_STREAM(info, log_engine) #define ERR_NG LOG_STREAM(err, log_engine)
20110320 15:16:05< Crab_> and then DBG_NG << "hello, free world!";
20110320 15:16:25< Crab_> with --log-debug=engine   it will be displayed
20110320 15:16:32< Crab_> on console or (on windows) in text file
20110320 15:18:08< Nephro> Ok, thanks :)
20110320 15:18:17-!- Cookiee [~quassel@unaffiliated/cookiee] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20110320 15:31:36-!- Sytyi [~chatzilla@90-117-133-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110320 15:34:50< Aethaeryn> error when compiling.
20110320 15:35:51< timotei> :)
20110320 15:35:55 * Nephro has wrote his first piece of wesnoth 
20110320 15:36:52< Aethaeryn> http://pastebin.com/LTssKctA
20110320 15:36:55< Aethaeryn> is the end of the compile
20110320 15:37:52< timotei> oh. Ivanovic, Espreon ^
20110320 15:38:46-!- codebox [~codebox@59.94.240.75] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
20110320 15:38:50< timotei> I'm the only one here who builds wesnoth without translations?:P They take too much time compiling for "nothing"
20110320 15:39:14< Aethaeryn> I'm a Latin translator.
20110320 15:39:20< Aethaeryn> I need the translations :-P
20110320 15:39:48< timotei> oh
20110320 15:40:08-!- codebox [~codebox@59.94.233.14] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110320 15:50:25-!- codebox [~codebox@59.94.233.14] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
20110320 15:51:26 * Nephro found that his first piece of wesnoth is working wrong
20110320 15:51:54< eoc> aww :-(
20110320 15:53:09< Nephro> The codebase is probably larger that I have ever worked with, so that's only logical for me to fail :)
20110320 15:54:52< Ivanovic> Aethaeryn: your gettext version sucks!
20110320 15:55:06< Ivanovic> Aethaeryn: and of course they have the initial value, since i just created those files!
20110320 15:57:14-!- PetePorty [~pete@unaffiliated/peterporty] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110320 15:57:42< Ivanovic> that is: not sure which command loonycyborg uses in scons for the po file stuff
20110320 16:00:38< Aethaeryn> Version     : 0.18.1.1
20110320 16:00:59< Aethaeryn> Unless you expect everyone compiling Wesnoth to compile gettext themselves, that's the best I have to settle for.
20110320 16:01:58< Aethaeryn> Which, coincidentally, is the most recent.
20110320 16:03:03-!- codebox [~codebox@59.94.246.29] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110320 16:04:21-!- fabi__ is now known as fendrin
20110320 16:05:35< Ivanovic> Aethaeryn: might also be build system related
20110320 16:05:53< Ivanovic> since when i call "msgfmt -c FILENAME" i also get the message, though i don't get it during normal compilation
20110320 16:06:10< Aethaeryn> Ivanovic: Do you use scons?
20110320 16:06:37< Ivanovic> the relevant part is that "--check-header" (part of -c) does produce this "error" that should actually be more like a note or warning, not a real error
20110320 16:06:45< Ivanovic> no, i don't use scons, i only use cmake
20110320 16:07:45< Aethaeryn> It could be broken in just scons.
20110320 16:08:12< Aethaeryn> It also could be broken in just a scons that was set up years ago and updated ever since then.
20110320 16:08:53< Ivanovic> it might also be something distribution specific (gettext setup stuff set to a "too critical" value)
20110320 16:09:08< Ivanovic> like i said, the problem is that some "checks" in msgfmt are called which should *not* be called
20110320 16:10:09< mordante> fendrin, there seems to be something wrong with the help, can you open units->drakes, there are two items without a title
20110320 16:10:46< Aethaeryn> it also says invalid nplurals value at /ang.po
20110320 16:11:30< Aethaeryn> sorry, wesnoth/ang.po
20110320 16:11:53< Ivanovic> like i said, the header checks should not be active, simple as that
20110320 16:11:57< Aethaeryn> Apparently, my Poedit gets errors opening up that specific file
20110320 16:12:03< Ivanovic> they seem to not happen here
20110320 16:12:49< Aethaeryn> perhaps I should delete my po folder and see if it compiles
20110320 16:12:57< Aethaeryn> when it redownloads everything
20110320 16:13:05< Ivanovic> found the problem:
20110320 16:13:06< loonycyborg> Ivanovic: So the -c switch shouldn't be passed?
20110320 16:13:07< Ivanovic> scons/gettext.py:        action = "$MSGFMT -c --statistics -o $TARGET $SOURCE",
20110320 16:13:10< Ivanovic> loonycyborg: yeah
20110320 16:13:16< Ivanovic> better use --check-format only
20110320 16:13:22< loonycyborg> kk
20110320 16:13:33< Ivanovic> also feel free to add --check-domain
20110320 16:13:39< Ivanovic> but all three seem to be a real problem
20110320 16:13:54< Ivanovic> (and maybe also fix this for 1.8 and scons)
20110320 16:14:47< Ivanovic> Aethaeryn: yeah, errors at initial opening *can* happen, like i said, they are 100% new files created by msginit and got to be updated by the creators to "really" be right
20110320 16:15:14< fendrin> mordante: Do you think that is related to the encyclopedia?
20110320 16:16:40< fendrin> mordante: trunk does not compile for me because of a translation issue at the moment.
20110320 16:18:05< fendrin> Aethaeryn: Same problem here.
20110320 16:18:24< CIA-89> ivanovic * r48952 /trunk/po/ (50 files in 25 dirs): ran an update on the Old English po files to make sure that they follow the "normal" defaults for the header
20110320 16:19:00< Ivanovic> fendrin: like i said, basically a scons only issue where scons is too strict
20110320 16:19:09< CIA-89> loonycyborg * r48953 /trunk/scons/gettext.py: Made msgfmt no longer perform a troublesome check.
20110320 16:19:10< Ivanovic> i trust in loonycyborg fixing this "very soon"
20110320 16:19:15< Ivanovic> you see, done
20110320 16:19:16< loonycyborg> fendrin: Aethaeryn: Should be fixed now.
20110320 16:19:17< Ivanovic> ;)
20110320 16:19:23< fendrin> thanks 
20110320 16:19:44< fendrin> loonycyborg: Right, it does the translation stuff now.
20110320 16:20:10< mordante> fendrin, yes if you click on the first item you see formatting in the text as well
20110320 16:23:39< fendrin> mordante: I see it.
20110320 16:24:03< fendrin> mordante: It's on my TODO now, I will fix it soon. Thank you.
20110320 16:25:20-!- erl [~erl@vetinte.spelaroll.se] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110320 16:27:00< mordante> ok, you're welcome
20110320 16:28:48-!- stikonas [~and@ctv-213-164-115-159.vinita.lt] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110320 16:28:48-!- stikonas [~and@ctv-213-164-115-159.vinita.lt] has quit [Changing host]
20110320 16:28:48-!- stikonas [~and@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110320 16:29:23-!- timotei [~timotei@wesnoth/developer/timotei] has quit [Quit: SIGKILL]
20110320 16:33:32-!- timotei [~timo@wesnoth/developer/timotei] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110320 16:34:09< CIA-89> loonycyborg * r48954 /branches/1.8/scons/gettext.py: Backported r48953: Made msgfmt no longer perform a troublesome check.
20110320 16:34:49< CIA-89> ivanovic * r48955 /trunk/po/ (3 files in 3 dirs): 
20110320 16:34:50< CIA-89> try to use the same checks in the old (and probably not used anymore) makefiles for the po4a domains as used by scons
20110320 16:34:50< CIA-89> add the checks to the cmake mo stuff, too
20110320 16:40:41-!- crimson_penguin [~ben@wesnoth/developer/crimsonpenguin] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110320 16:41:46< CIA-89> ivanovic * r48956 /branches/1.8/po/ (4 files in 3 dirs): apply the "check" changes from r48955 to 1.8, too (and the "real" autotools system in there, too)
20110320 16:42:00-!- pauxlo [~paulo@p5B3FBAE9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110320 16:50:25-!- ancestral [~ancestral@71-34-10-19.mpls.qwest.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110320 16:54:39-!- rigved [~rigved@116.72.163.243] has quit [Quit: Bye]
20110320 16:55:36-!- zookeeper2 [~l@87-100-216-87.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110320 16:58:47-!- zookeeper [~l@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
20110320 17:00:27< CIA-89> ivanovic * r48957 /trunk/ (948 files in 51 dirs): 
20110320 17:00:27< CIA-89> pot-update
20110320 17:00:27< CIA-89> regenerated doc files
20110320 17:01:47-!- zookeeper2 is now known as zookeeper
20110320 17:01:54-!- zookeeper [~l@87-100-216-87.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [Changing host]
20110320 17:01:54-!- zookeeper [~l@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110320 17:13:43-!- timotei [~timo@wesnoth/developer/timotei] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20110320 17:20:01-!- timotei [~timotei@wesnoth/developer/timotei] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110320 17:20:25-!- timotei [~timotei@wesnoth/developer/timotei] has quit [Client Quit]
20110320 17:21:18-!- timotei [~timotei@89.43.196.13] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110320 17:21:18-!- timotei [~timotei@89.43.196.13] has quit [Changing host]
20110320 17:21:18-!- timotei [~timotei@wesnoth/developer/timotei] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110320 17:33:34-!- ancestral [~ancestral@71-34-10-19.mpls.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: i go sleeps kthxbai]
20110320 17:55:53-!- Sytyi [~chatzilla@90-117-133-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86.1 [Firefox 4.0/20110303194838]]
20110320 17:59:26-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: 1.9.5 planned once the Khalifate are in | 184 bugs, 304 feature requests, 18 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
20110320 18:06:59-!- automagic [~karol@87-205-160-84.adsl.inetia.pl] has quit [Quit: leaving]
20110320 18:20:58-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110320 18:23:41-!- shadowm_laptop [ignacio@wesnoth/developer/shadowmaster] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110320 18:25:58-!- codebox [~codebox@59.94.246.29] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
20110320 18:41:31< Nephro> Crab_, can You please tell me a file, where the values of aspects are actually used in calculations... I got really confused in all the system. It actually seemed clearer to me,  before I started reading up the sources :)
20110320 18:41:59< Crab_> readonly_context in src/ai/contexts.cpp
20110320 18:42:25< Crab_> e.g. readonly_context_impl::get_aggression()
20110320 18:42:43< Crab_> note the 'return aggression_->get();' line, it gets the current value of the aggression aspect
20110320 18:43:21-!- Blueblaze [~Blueblaze@adsl-76-202-16-172.dsl.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110320 18:44:17< Crab_> and this get_aggression method is called (through a proxy) in many places in actual candidate actions
20110320 18:44:35< Nephro> Hm... that's weird then, I actually used readonly_context_impl::get_aggression() in my code, but it always returned 0.4, no matter how hard I tried to change it... Seems my code was fine, but I failed at chaning the aggression itself
20110320 18:45:48< Crab_> how you tried to change it ?
20110320 18:46:56< Nephro> aggression=0.7 in the [ai] tag. when that didn't work out I did {MODIFY_AI_ADD_ASPECT 2 aggression (id=always value=0.7)}
20110320 18:47:23< Crab_> you can use :inspect to see current values of ai config elements
20110320 18:48:27< Crab_> see data/campaigns/Legend_of_Wesmere/scenarios/01_The_Uprooting.cfg for the example new-style aggression config
20110320 18:50:33< Nephro> The inspector showed that the aggression is actually 0.4... I'll go check out the LoW config (hurray, my code must actually work )
20110320 18:51:18-!- stikonas [~and@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20110320 18:51:32< Crab_> note that the inspector can also show you the 'tree' of the ai components you have.
20110320 18:53:12< Nephro> {AI_SIMPLE_ALWAYS_ASPECT aggression 0.75} -- this worked
20110320 18:53:38< Crab_> great.
20110320 18:56:15< Nephro> So, I've wrote a function in src/ai/lua/core.cpp for getting the aggression and added the function to the callback registration loop. Should I commit it?
20110320 18:56:39-!- mjs-de [~mjs-de@vpw.wh.uni-dortmund.de] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110320 18:57:16< Crab_> if, by chance, you have commit access already, you should. if no, make a patch and submit it to patches.wesnoth.org then show the link here.
20110320 19:00:30< Nephro> Ok... By the way: I have used naming conventions similar to other functions in the core.cpp... The other callback functions were name cfun_ai_execute_*, I don't know what you meant by cfun, but just used it and named the function cfun_ai_get_aggression, since it doesn't execute anything
20110320 19:00:58< Crab_> Nephro: check out /wesnoth/src/scripting/lua.cpp
20110320 19:01:17< Crab_>  * @note Naming conventions: *   - intf_ functions are exported in the wesnoth domain,  *   - impl_ functions are hidden inside metatables,  *   - cfun_ functions are closures,   *   - luaW_ functions are helpers in Lua style.
20110320 19:03:10< Crab_> note the 'int side = ((ai::engine_lua*)lua_touserdata(L,lua_upvalueindex(1)))->get_readonly_context().get_side();' line 
20110320 19:03:54< Crab_> we get a pointer to ai::engine_lua by taking it from an upvalue, so this function is, in fact, closure on that engine (stored as userdata ptr)
20110320 19:04:45< Nephro> Yes, I transformed that line to get the aggression
20110320 19:05:59< Crab_> yes, it's the way to do it. ai::engine_lua has access to readonly_context (and, later in the init process, access to full ai_context, including actions), so it has access to this info.
20110320 19:08:20< Crab_> note that it's probably better to rewrite this line as   ' int side = get_readonly_context(L).get_side();'    or   'double aggression = get_readonly_context(L).get_aggression();'
20110320 19:08:57< Crab_> also note that, if your aggression aspect is written in lua (not possible atm, but will be possible in the future), simply doing double aggression = get_readonly_context(L).get_aggression(); is not effecient
20110320 19:09:28< Crab_> because the value of the aspect will be computed in lua, then transformed to c++, then transformed back to lua
20110320 19:11:08< Crab_> the easiest way to fix this is, probably, to add a bunch of  'const lua_object&  readonly_context_impl::get_aggression_as_lua' functions to readonly_context which will pass around a c++ wrapper for a lua table
20110320 19:11:33< Crab_> and then fix aspect.hpp to allow for lua-backed aspects.
20110320 19:11:46< Crab_> and then fix lua_engine to allow it to create such aspects by parsing the cfg
20110320 19:15:31< Crab_> Nephro: so, the good next task would be to enable people to write aspects in lua.
20110320 19:15:45< Crab_> this is very important to ease the ai configuration in general
20110320 19:15:59< Crab_> since the old 1.6 ai used stuff like 'different aggression for different times of day'
20110320 19:16:21< Crab_> and, when I converted it in 1.7, I had to make room for '1 aspect - multiple conditional values'
20110320 19:17:02< Crab_> so, I had to make it [aspect] id=aggression [facet] value=... time_of_day=... [/facet]  [facet] ...[/facet] [facet] ...[/facet] [/aspect] 
20110320 19:17:20< Crab_> thus, a new thing named 'facet' appeared which made configuration more complex than it should had been
20110320 19:18:12< Crab_> with lua, we can make things simpler again
20110320 19:19:33< Crab_> because, in lua, a person can write [aspect] id=aggression engine=lua value="0.3" [/aspect] when he wants to be simple. and we would be able to simplify that to [aggression] value=0.3 [/aggression]  which is almost as good as old aggression=0.3
20110320 19:22:20< Crab_> (and, to allow  'different aggression for different times of day', the person would simply write a formula like [aggression] value="if (wesnoth.get_time_of_day()=='dawn' {... } " [/aggression] or use a helper function made for this purpose )
20110320 19:23:45-!- TheBuzzSaw [~buzz@c-174-52-119-193.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110320 19:23:55 * TheBuzzSaw is converting the entire Wesnoth repository into git. XD
20110320 19:25:48< mordante> TheBuzzSaw is wasting his time, it has already been done ;-)
20110320 19:25:54< TheBuzzSaw> ha really?
20110320 19:26:10< TheBuzzSaw> I'm just doing it for fun using the SVN URL. Is the project all in git now?
20110320 19:26:23< CIA-89> mordante * r48958 /trunk/src/gui/dialogs/mp_connect.cpp: Use a register function to capture the focus.
20110320 19:26:27< CIA-89> mordante * r48959 /trunk/src/gui/dialogs/ (dialog.cpp dialog.hpp field.hpp): 
20110320 19:26:27< CIA-89> Let a field store its linked widget.
20110320 19:26:27< CIA-89> This allows to remove a lot of window parameters and simplifying parts
20110320 19:26:27< CIA-89> of the code. Also added a mandatory field, next to the optional, the
20110320 19:26:27< CIA-89> latter is deprecated.
20110320 19:26:30< CIA-89> mordante * r48960 /trunk/src/ (5 files in 3 dirs): 
20110320 19:26:30< CIA-89> Polish teditor_settings.
20110320 19:26:30< CIA-89> - Use register functions.
20110320 19:26:30< CIA-89> - Remove use_mdi from caller in favour of the preferences.
20110320 19:26:35< CIA-89> mordante * r48961 /trunk/src/ (4 files in 2 dirs): 
20110320 19:26:35< CIA-89> Polish ttransient_message.
20110320 19:26:35< CIA-89> The removal of a header also forced some additional files to be edited.
20110320 19:26:55< TheBuzzSaw> mordante: URL?
20110320 19:26:55< shadowmaster> some of us developers on Linux use git-svn to interact with the SVN repository using local git repositories
20110320 19:26:56< mordante> no we still use svn, but I mainly use git svn for my work
20110320 19:26:57< TheBuzzSaw> oh sweet
20110320 19:27:09< TheBuzzSaw> Have a location I can pull from? :]
20110320 19:27:27< mordante> TheBuzzSaw, http://www.wesnoth.org/files/hidden/wesnoth-git.tar.bz2
20110320 19:27:43< TheBuzzSaw> dawww a download
20110320 19:27:51< TheBuzzSaw> k thx
20110320 19:27:55< mordante> yup and I think about 1 GB
20110320 19:28:08< CIA-89> crab * r48962 /trunk/data/campaigns/Under_the_Burning_Suns/scenarios/03_Stirring_in_the_Night.cfg: fix some misspelled items in ai configuration in UtBS scenario 3. Thanks to Espreon
20110320 19:28:09< eoc> which may be the cause for hiding it :)
20110320 19:28:35< mordante> yup, but like to warn about the size upfront
20110320 19:28:42< mordante> TheBuzzSaw, and there's also http://www.wesnoth.org/files/hidden/wesnoth-git.tar.bz2.md5
20110320 19:29:37< TheBuzzSaw> awesome
20110320 19:29:43< TheBuzzSaw> <3 git
20110320 19:30:04< TheBuzzSaw> I admit, though, it is kinda fun just watching all the SVN revisions roll through in my terminal
20110320 19:30:43< mordante> of course but it takes quite a while before you have everything
20110320 19:30:52< shadowmaster> it is fun until you realize that the "Linux people like to watch boring output in their terminals" stereotype plagues the net
20110320 19:31:00< TheBuzzSaw> haha
20110320 19:31:09< TheBuzzSaw> Can't be much worse than the superbowl
20110320 19:31:26-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has quit [Quit: Your janebot is evolving!]
20110320 19:31:54-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110320 19:38:03-!- boucman [~rosen@wesnoth/developer/boucman] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110320 19:42:01-!- 15SAACC8J [~trewe@87-196-155-138.net.novis.pt] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110320 19:42:31-!- timotei21 [~timotei@wesnoth/developer/timotei] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110320 19:45:29-!- timotei [~timotei@wesnoth/developer/timotei] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
20110320 19:58:28< Nephro> Couldn't find anything on submittig patches... Only one forum post that is 4+ years old. Do we still submit patches in .diff files?
20110320 19:58:36< Crab_> yes
20110320 19:58:46< shadowmaster> Nephro: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/PatchSubmissionGuidelines
20110320 19:58:59< Nephro> Google didn't show that
20110320 19:59:02< Nephro> thanks
20110320 19:59:41< boucman> who are the maintainers for TSG an NR ?
20110320 19:59:58 * boucman is doing a round of patch-checking
20110320 20:00:13< timotei21> Nephro: here is a hint: http://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Awesnoth.org+patch
20110320 20:00:42< timotei21> Nephro: usually adding: site:http:// (note there is NO space between site: and the address) will search in that domain
20110320 20:01:01< Nephro> :) Ok, I'll note that, cheers
20110320 20:01:36< timotei21> ;)
20110320 20:01:39< boucman> Crab_: you are our new lua expert, arn't you ?
20110320 20:02:40< Crab_> boucman: well, I won't call myself an 'expert' - but, I dealt with lua for the AI and a couple of other small things, so I suppose I can do a few things with it
20110320 20:03:20< boucman> could you review https://gna.org/patch/?2470 for me ? the functionnality is usefull, but I don't know lua and can't check what it's doing...
20110320 20:03:29< Crab_> ok
20110320 20:07:17-!- grigoryj_ [~javadyan@46.70.36.60] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110320 20:07:37< grigoryj_> hey
20110320 20:07:51< grigoryj_> Anyone WML-competent around?
20110320 20:07:51 * Nephro hates his laptop... Writing 5 lines of code and submitting them took a whole day...
20110320 20:08:12< boucman> grigoryj_: depends a lot on the area, just ask...
20110320 20:08:49< Nephro> fantastic... now the keyboard doesn't work in the virtual machine and I can't access today's work
20110320 20:09:10< grigoryj_> boucman: Oh great, it's you... Remember you told me that the order of tags in a WML document was important?
20110320 20:09:13< Crab_> Nephro: yes, compiling wesnoth (esp. a debug build)  can take a lot of time
20110320 20:09:40< boucman> grigoryj_: yes, it can be, depending on the tags
20110320 20:09:42< Crab_> Nephro: that's one of the things in which lua is good - changes to lua code doesn't require compilation of wesnoth :)
20110320 20:09:58-!- stikonas [~and@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110320 20:10:03< grigoryj_> can you show an example?
20110320 20:10:42< boucman> if you look in any unit with complicated animation's cfg, there are [if] blocks followed with [else] blocks
20110320 20:10:47< Nephro> It's not about compiling... It's about my laptop :{ The monitor constantly goes out and I have to send the pc to sleep and wake it up like every 10 minutes. But I got used to that, now the VirtualBox with linux and the build of wesnoth broke down and I can't even do nothing
20110320 20:11:09< boucman> all [else] blocks are related to the [if] block above, but there can be multiple [If] within the same containing tag
20110320 20:11:20< Crab_> Nephro: technically, you can compile on windows, too, on vs2008
20110320 20:12:02< Nephro> Crab_, I tried and failed, and haven't found anyone with similar problems
20110320 20:12:13< Nephro> VirtualBox was a cool solution
20110320 20:12:18< Crab_> Nephro: ok.
20110320 20:12:29< grigoryj_> ok, got it. just wondering, wouldn't it be better to just have an [ifelse] tag with [if] and [else] subtags... 
20110320 20:12:46< Crab_> Nephro: note that I can show you how to compile on VS2008, using cmake build file and some precompiled libs.
20110320 20:13:20< Crab_> grigoryj_: another example: ai [stage] tags, they are played in order. ai firstly does A, then B, then C.
20110320 20:13:51< Crab_> Nephro: but I agree, coding on *nix is better )
20110320 20:13:58< boucman> grigoryj_: that would have been a great idea 3 years ago, we now have to deal with backward compatibility, 
20110320 20:14:09< boucman> (and yes, that syntax sucks, and it's entirely my fault)
20110320 20:14:21< grigoryj_> Yes, I understand it :-)
20110320 20:14:45< Nephro> Crab_, well, if your way is different from the one shown in the wiki, then I could give it a try
20110320 20:14:52-!- ancestral [~ancestral@71-34-10-19.mpls.qwest.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110320 20:15:15< Crab_> Nephro: well, my way is the way written in the wiki, but the wiki is slightly outdated from the moment it was written by me )
20110320 20:15:39< Crab_> Nephro: the .bat file needs some modifications
20110320 20:15:49< Nephro> That is probably the reason why I got them errors
20110320 20:17:20< Crab_> wesnoth-msvc9.bat : http://pastebin.com/Fj4Dgbdw
20110320 20:19:03< Crab_> or, even better, with 'pause' in the end, like http://pastebin.com/iS3ds8DC
20110320 20:19:24< Nephro> that's ok, I'll run it through cmd
20110320 20:19:35< Crab_> run after ensuring that steps 1-5 from http://wiki.wesnoth.org/CompilingWesnothOnWindows are complete
20110320 20:21:24< Nephro> Will it run on VS2010?
20110320 20:22:25< Crab_> it should not. I've tried once. to run it in 2010, you'll need to get all the libs build for 2010 or build them yourself. not an easy task.
20110320 20:22:45< Crab_> i.e., things like 'get boost, recompile it for 2010 with zlib support'
20110320 20:23:05< Crab_> you can have both 2008 and 2010 installed side-by-side.
20110320 20:23:41< Nephro> I know :) I have... Tried everything when wanted to compile wesnoth under windows... Then one line in linux and *bang* - it's done
20110320 20:24:05< Crab_> you might need to run it from 'studio 2008 command prompt', but it should work - at least it works with 2008 everywhere I've tried.
20110320 20:24:22< Crab_> on linux (and even on freebsd) it's easier.
20110320 20:24:49-!- fkhodkov [~fedor76@ppp-78-24-25-163-bras0.istra.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20110320 20:24:49-!- srk9 [~richard@unaffiliated/srk9] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110320 20:25:09< TheBuzzSaw> mingw > VS
20110320 20:25:56< Crab_> TheBuzzSaw: afair, loonycyborg has a way to compile wesnoth using mingw toolchain. However, both VS and mingw work, so both are ok.
20110320 20:26:13< timotei21> Nephro: Crab_'s method is very fast/ok for using wesnoth on windows really
20110320 20:26:40< Crab_> timotei21: you need vs 2008 for it, and slightly modified .bat file.
20110320 20:26:57< Nephro> timotei21, I don't doubt that... Doing it right now, but the wiki should be updated, so that other people can do that too :)
20110320 20:26:58< Crab_> timotei21: I should update the archive at the ftp to contain the new version.
20110320 20:26:59< timotei21> yes, 2008
20110320 20:27:11< timotei21> hmm... really?
20110320 20:27:22< timotei21> I use the projectfiles/vc9/wesnoth.sln solution
20110320 20:27:36< timotei21> and the old archive iirc. I had just to get boost datetime
20110320 20:27:36< Crab_> timotei21: that one, yes, it can be used, too.
20110320 20:28:05< Crab_> timotei21: yes, just unpack into 1 place and add it to studio's search path.
20110320 20:28:14< Crab_> timotei21: or you've added all the folders separately ?
20110320 20:29:07-!- akzfowl [~akzfowl@1.186.6.48] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
20110320 20:29:17< timotei21> Crab_: I've added them to d:/usr/lib, d:/usr/include, d:/usr/dll :P
20110320 20:29:22< Crab_> :)
20110320 20:29:29< timotei21> from this archive
20110320 20:29:30< timotei21> http://sourceforge.net/projects/wesnoth/files/unofficial/Windows%20Compile%20Stuff/external.7z/download
20110320 20:29:42-!- akzfowl [~akzfowl@1.186.8.201] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110320 20:37:49< Nephro> How long could wesnoth compile on windows on core2duo laptop?
20110320 20:38:23< Crab_> Nephro: don't know. about ~20 minutes, but that's a wild guess.
20110320 20:38:34< Crab_> boucman: ok, looked at the patch.
20110320 20:38:42< Nephro> Hm... I might as well go grab something to eat then ;]
20110320 20:39:01< boucman> Crab_: commit ready ?
20110320 20:39:10< Crab_> boucman: I don't like the fact that they duplicated the core engine stuff which gives xp to units.
20110320 20:39:34< boucman> ok, well feel free to ask the author to work on it :)
20110320 20:40:01< grigoryj_> boucman: I guess the best solution would be to add a [tagseq] tag to the schema... It would contain references to tags and the tags would have to appear in that exact order. Looks ugly, but, well, we're dealing with an ugly case here...
20110320 20:40:54< Crab_> grigoryj_: and how you will deal with tags 'proxied' by lua ? 
20110320 20:41:30-!- sega [~sega@46.185.3.161] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110320 20:41:52< Crab_> grigoryj_: i.e. we can handle a direct action tag using lua code which will do any amount of extra work then, maybe, invoke the original tag handler.
20110320 20:42:15< Crab_> grigoryj_: e.g., adding code to support a new attribute of a command, or to make up a new tag on the fly.
20110320 20:43:06< sega> damn
20110320 20:43:24< grigoryj_> Crab_: that's tricky... probably the luad code would have to specify the shcema for new tags/attributes
20110320 20:44:18< Crab_> grigoryj_: yes, some kind of delegation to the content itself will be good. I.e. 'if you want your new tags to be handled by the validator, please add the schema for them, and specify changes to existing tags...'
20110320 20:44:30< grigoryj_> which means we'll have to alter the lua scripts
20110320 20:44:55< Crab_> grigoryj_: that's ok as long as it's opt-in (i.e. if things still work somewhat without the extra info)
20110320 20:45:32< grigoryj_> yes, I'll have to think of a way of doing it without breaking the existing scripts
20110320 20:45:38< Crab_> boucman: btw, just a random question: what do you think about moving the actual game rules from c++ to lua ? stuff like 'what happens when unit A attacks unit B with attack C and deals Z damage to it'
20110320 20:47:12< boucman>  Crab_: I'm not against the idea per se, but it's a huge work, so we would have to gain something out of it... at this point i'm not sure what it would bring
20110320 20:47:32< boucman> unless we make it more pluggable for UMC at the same time, i.e UMC can replace part of the gamerules...
20110320 20:47:48< timotei21> sega: what?
20110320 20:48:00< Crab_> boucman: yes, but this requires huge design work beforehand...
20110320 20:48:05< Crab_> boucman: but, at this point, we have a problem 
20110320 20:48:18< Crab_> boucman: we have a [harm_unit] tag which requires access to the XP granting rules.
20110320 20:48:53< Crab_> boucman: to avoid duplication, we need (1) move XP granting rules to lua and access them from C++  or (2) add accessor for c++ XP  granting rules to lua.
20110320 20:49:03-!- [Relic] [~relic@99-58-54-211.lightspeed.milwwi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110320 20:49:07-!- Sytyi [~chatzilla@90-117-133-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110320 20:49:36< boucman> Crab_: what's the general philosophy so far for that type of problems wrt lua ?
20110320 20:49:50< Crab_> silene was moving stuff towards lua
20110320 20:50:05< Crab_> e.g. many tags in wml-tags.lua were c++ code before
20110320 20:50:13< [Relic]> Hello :)
20110320 20:51:51< Crab_> but, both in current c++ and lua code, there's a large amount of code duplication
20110320 20:52:44< boucman> Crab_: i'm not the one to make that kind of decision, and i'm pretty neutral overall...
20110320 20:54:10< Crab_> and it doesn't help readability that lua code uses wesnoth markup language to do stuff...
20110320 20:54:48-!- Sytyi [~chatzilla@90-117-133-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86.1 [Firefox 4.0/20110303194838]]
20110320 20:57:01< Crab_> boucman: also, about the patch - the designer hasn't handled the case where we want both attacker and defender to be animated
20110320 20:57:19< srk9> boucman: Thomsew suggested in #17573 that sdl_blit() in the trunk is a better place to deal with it and he appears to be right. I have written a patch for the trunk that moves this to sdl_blit(). Is there any way that I can ask svn to revert the changes to display.cpp and display.hpp made in commit r48935 so that I can include a reversion of that commit in my patch?
20110320 20:58:52< sega> hi all
20110320 20:59:24< sega> sorry guys,I wrote here before but it was for another channel :) apologize
20110320 20:59:42< srk9> sega: I don't think saying hi is something that needs an apology. :P
20110320 20:59:50< eoc> <sega> damn
20110320 20:59:53< eoc> ;o
20110320 21:00:00< sega> I wrote "damn" before
20110320 21:00:08< Crab_> hi
20110320 21:00:21< sega> I just was fixing one bug you know... ;)
20110320 21:01:09-!- Crendgrim [~crend@77-22-173-219-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20110320 21:02:43< srk9> Actually, I will just post my patch to the bug tracker for criticism. The reversion of my previous workaround can be handled separately once everyone agrees on where the workaround for the upstream bug should be inserted.
20110320 21:03:44< boucman> srk9: it can dbe doone in svn, but I don't know how
20110320 21:04:17< boucman> and srk9, i'll gladly commit an improved patch, but don't bother with 1.8, the fix is good enough and we will never remove it from 1.8
20110320 21:06:47< srk9> boucman: Okay.
20110320 21:09:14< Nephro> 7>wesnoth - 13 error(s), 187 warning(s) -- vs2008 fails again?
20110320 21:09:38< timotei21> Nephro: 100% is because you don't have all required libs/includes
20110320 21:09:47< timotei21> Nephro: www.pastebin.com the errors
20110320 21:10:21< Nephro> I can't seem to understand how to view the errors in vs2008
20110320 21:10:33< Nephro> it just gives me a raw log which is miles long
20110320 21:11:18< timotei21> yeah
20110320 21:11:20< timotei21> CTRL+A
20110320 21:11:22< timotei21> copy paste>D
20110320 21:13:21< Nephro> How can I not have libs, if I got the external libs pack and successfuly ran the batch file?:
20110320 21:13:52< Nephro> I unchecked ana and sent the thing recompiling, since I have accidentally cleared the log
20110320 21:14:24< grigoryj_> Just downloaded the complete source... Where is the part that handles WML (syntax checks, preprocessing, etc)?
20110320 21:14:41< timotei21> night guys
20110320 21:14:41-!- timotei21 [~timotei@wesnoth/developer/timotei] has quit [Quit: SIGKILL]
20110320 21:14:44-!- negusnyul [~negusnyul@dsl91EC8AB2.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20110320 21:18:26-!- negusnyul [~negusnyul@dsl91EC8AB2.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110320 21:21:48< srk9> boucman: I have attached my improved patch to bug #17573, although it might not be that useful. I spotted a blit_surface() function in sdl_utils.cpp that appears to have been written to replace the problematic upstream SDL_BlitSurface() to solve some unrelated issues.
20110320 21:24:16< boucman> srk9: ok, sounds like a good place to put your code...
20110320 21:24:57< srk9> boucman: blit_surface() doesn't look like it should suffer from the upstream issue.
20110320 21:26:31< srk9> boucman: I don't have time to test this right now, but if it works properly, we shouldn't need any workaround code for the upstream issue at all.
20110320 21:27:02< boucman> srk9: and I can't test at all :)
20110320 21:27:29< boucman> srk9: since we already have your fix in, there is no hurry, just ping me when you have an upgraded patch ready, and we'll discuss at that point
20110320 21:27:55< srk9> boucman: Okay. I will add this to my todo list for next weekend. My freetime this weekend has basically been exhausted.
20110320 21:27:59-!- TheBuzzSaw [~buzz@c-174-52-119-193.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has left #wesnoth-dev []
20110320 21:29:26-!- Appleman1234 [~Appleman1@CPE-60-226-179-130.qld.bigpond.net.au] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110320 21:38:22-!- GeorgeSebastian [~georgeSeb@unaffiliated/georgesebastian] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110320 21:39:06< grigoryj_> Just a question - what do you think would be more useful - WML schema or spritesheets?
20110320 21:39:54< boucman> tough one :P
20110320 21:40:07< grigoryj_> :]
20110320 21:43:09< grigoryj_> spritesheets seem like more game-development kind of stuff... 
20110320 21:43:59< boucman> but schema would allow more error detection for UMC, and better WML documentation :P
20110320 21:44:54-!- Appleman1234 [~Appleman1@CPE-60-226-179-130.qld.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20110320 21:45:02< grigoryj_> yees, and now I have a dillemma :D
20110320 21:47:55< shadowmaster> schemata! so we can get rid of wmllint
20110320 21:48:22 * shadowmaster pokes Espreon 
20110320 21:48:36< Espreon> Yay.
20110320 21:55:34-!- sega [~sega@46.185.3.161] has left #wesnoth-dev []
20110320 21:56:43< fendrin> We can't get rid of wmllint entirely. It will still be used to update wml to new versions which will not be handled by the schema validation.
20110320 21:58:07-!- 15SAACC8J [~trewe@87-196-155-138.net.novis.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20110320 21:58:17 * Nephro compiled wesnoth on windows, but doesn't know how to launch it now
20110320 21:58:46< fendrin> double clicking on the wesnoth.exe file?
20110320 21:59:28< shadowmaster> create a shortcut to the executable with the source top dir as its working path
20110320 22:00:24-!- grigoryj_ [~javadyan@46.70.36.60] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
20110320 22:07:14< CIA-89> fendrin * r48963 /branches/editor/ (28 files in 7 dirs): 
20110320 22:07:14< CIA-89> Enabled the placement of labels.
20110320 22:07:14< CIA-89> Improvements to the side handling code and gui.
20110320 22:11:45-!- akzfowl [~akzfowl@1.186.8.201] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
20110320 22:12:20< mordante> Crab_, any news on the exception handling changes in Lua
20110320 22:14:32< Crab_> mordante: no. most likely, I won't have time to do it.
20110320 22:15:00< mordante> no time at all or not in the near future?
20110320 22:15:56-!- mjs-de [~mjs-de@vpw.wh.uni-dortmund.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20110320 22:16:38-!- stikonas [~and@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20110320 22:17:06-!- akzfowl [~akzfowl@1.186.8.201] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110320 22:18:03< Nephro> shadowmaster, fendrin: it says SDL.dll is missing
20110320 22:18:25< shadowmaster> put it in the same dir as the wesnoth executable
20110320 22:18:44< shadowmaster> same goes for the other required DLLs
20110320 22:18:50-!- iwaim [~iwaim@rasteenie.alib.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
20110320 22:20:06< Nephro> can I just copy the external/ folder there?
20110320 22:20:53< mordante> Crab_, no time at all or not in the near future?
20110320 22:23:33< Nephro> "debug assertion failed: string not dereferencable" 
20110320 22:23:55< Nephro> this is horrible
20110320 22:24:27< fendrin> Nephro: Ever tried Linux? Compiling and developing is easier on that platform.
20110320 22:24:54< Nephro> I know... I told my story upper... Used virtualBox whichi broke down today
20110320 22:25:01 * mordante loves the error message (and hides)
20110320 22:25:27< Nephro> mordante, it was "string iterator..."
20110320 22:25:50< mordante> ah that makes more sense
20110320 22:26:13< Nephro> yeah :D
20110320 22:26:33-!- Unnheulu [~ieuan@cpc1-pnth2-2-0-cust788.5-2.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110320 22:27:03-!- Unnheulu [~ieuan@cpc1-pnth2-2-0-cust788.5-2.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20110320 22:28:23< Crab_> Nephro: try running from different directory
20110320 22:28:29< Crab_> Nephro: as shadowmaster has suggested
20110320 22:29:30< Nephro> yeah, seemed to start after the shortcut business
20110320 22:30:14-!- Unnheulu [~ieuan@cpc1-pnth2-2-0-cust788.5-2.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110320 22:30:34< Nephro> Now I have to write my patch again... ugh... I'll do that tomorrow, so tired today
20110320 22:32:24< Crab_> Nephro: can't you get it back from the VM ? or it's broken ?
20110320 22:33:09-!- negusnyul [~negusnyul@dsl91EC8AB2.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20110320 22:38:33< Espreon> elias: I can't get wesnoth_addons_manager to work. This is what I get: http://pastebin.com/tbfWg1RH
20110320 22:38:51< Espreon> elias: I called it like this: "~/wesnoth/data/tools/wesnoth_addon_manager -u Era_of_Magic -c . -p 1.8.x"
20110320 22:39:11-!- un214 [~un214@adsl-75-45-1-223.dsl.scrm01.sbcglobal.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110320 22:39:51< elias> looks right... let me try here
20110320 22:43:27< Crab_> mordante:  "not in the near future"
20110320 22:43:45< elias> Espreon: did you see if the error occurs before or after uploading?
20110320 22:43:47< Crab_> mordante: it still looks like an interesting thing to try, and will lead to a better code in some laces.
20110320 22:43:51< Crab_> s/laces/places
20110320 22:44:09< Espreon> elias: I don't think the upload was successful.
20110320 22:44:36< mordante> Crab_, ok, guess that means we have to go with my hack for now
20110320 22:44:37< elias> it does upload here... but will take a long time over my connection :P
20110320 22:44:57< elias> (and will fail since i obviously don't have the .pbl file)
20110320 22:45:12< Espreon> Well, what could be wrong?
20110320 22:45:22< elias> not sure, did it work recently?
20110320 22:45:23-!- MeccaGod [majs@h14n4fls31o279.telia.com] has quit []
20110320 22:45:30< mordante> Crab_, will look at finishing the hack properly
20110320 22:45:37< Espreon> elias: I haven't used it for quite a while.
20110320 22:45:40< elias> i have no idea how regularly this is used for uploading campaigns
20110320 22:45:46< mordante> Crab_, what would be the advantage of moving code to Lua?
20110320 22:49:25< elias> Espreon: do you have any .ign file?
20110320 22:49:31< Espreon> Yes.
20110320 22:49:35< mordante> Ivanovic, when are you going to release directly after Kalifate is in?
20110320 22:50:08< elias> Espreon: i think it chokes on an empty line in there - i'll make it more robust
20110320 22:50:16< Espreon> OK.
20110320 22:52:00< Crab_> mordante: if done right, "ease of change for the end user".
20110320 22:52:13< Crab_> mordante: but that was just a random question, I'm not advocating it :)
20110320 22:52:53< mordante> the disadvantage is that devs also need to learn Lua
20110320 22:53:39< Aethaeryn> Lua isn't hard.
20110320 22:54:05< Aethaeryn> If you already know a real language, that is.
20110320 22:54:07< mordante> Aethaeryn, it's not only Lua but also the Lua/C++ interaction
20110320 22:54:23< Aethaeryn> So?
20110320 22:54:26< Aethaeryn> Fair trade-off.
20110320 22:54:28< shadowmaster> Aethaeryn: that argument is not really relevant. Python isn't hard either, but some people just don't have the time to learn yet another language while maintaining Wesnoth.
20110320 22:54:30< Aethaeryn> WML doesn't scale well at all.
20110320 22:54:57< Aethaeryn> The further you get from a simple unit/terrain/scenario/etc. definition, the worse WML is.
20110320 22:55:17< mordante> Aethaeryn, the problem is that variables to Lua seem to be stack based and I wonder about the type safety
20110320 22:55:46< CIA-89> elias * r48964 /trunk/data/tools/ (wesnoth/campaignserver_client.py wesnoth_addon_manager): [wesnoth_addon_manager] Allow empty lines in ignore lists.
20110320 22:56:00< mordante> and to be honest I care more about the maintainability of the C++ side
20110320 22:56:04< Aethaeryn> As much as I'm into theory, wouldn't there be a practical way to solve this other than speculation?
20110320 22:56:08< elias> Espreon: try again
20110320 22:56:14< Espreon> OK.
20110320 22:56:22< Aethaeryn> i.e. extend Lua so it can do almost anything WML can do. If everyone likes it, we can deprecate parts of WML
20110320 22:56:25< Crab_> Aethaeryn: btw, what do you think about 'what to do with combat/experience game rules' question ?
20110320 22:56:42< Aethaeryn> First I'm hearing of that question.
20110320 22:56:56 * shadowmaster 
20110320 22:57:05< Espreon> elias: Better, but not quite.
20110320 22:57:12< mordante> Aethaeryn, what do you mean with that?
20110320 22:57:29< Espreon> elias: http://pastebin.com/CxBC0exy
20110320 22:57:33< un214> well I had another plan but oh well
20110320 22:57:35< Crab_> Aethaeryn: https://gna.org/patch/?2470
20110320 22:57:42< un214> I wanted to make wml kind of a vector language
20110320 22:57:52< un214> like SQL is
20110320 22:57:58< Espreon> elias: Yes, I have a UTF-8 character in the addon description.
20110320 22:58:06< Crab_> Aethaeryn: look at https://gna.org/patch/download.php?file_id=12263 , look at the implementation of 'experience: default yes, if yes and there is a secondary unit, both it and the harmed units gain experience like in regular combat.' feature.
20110320 22:58:11< Aethaeryn> mordante: I mean that in order to even argue whether Lua is better than WML, we first need to expand the Lua implementation since there are currently some things that have to be done in WML tables.
20110320 22:58:18< Aethaeryn> In a very inelegant way imo.
20110320 22:59:00< mordante> Aethaeryn, I'm not arguing whether Lua or WML is better, but about the engine side
20110320 22:59:12< Aethaeryn> Crab_: oh, that's pretty cool.
20110320 22:59:18< mordante> and to be honest the current Lua mess wasted a lot of my time
20110320 22:59:58< mordante> and apparently still needs more of my time to get the mess solved
20110320 23:00:02< Aethaeryn> mordante: Well, as of midnight or sooner (whenever I finish this damn programming assignment for school), Lua's going to start wasting *my* time.
20110320 23:00:15< Aethaeryn> I'm going to start preparing patches because of GSOC
20110320 23:00:41< Crab_> Aethaeryn: so, do you see the issue in the implementation with the 'experience' part of the patch ?
20110320 23:01:14< mordante> Aethaeryn, I'm not sure what you're trying to say here, are you volunteering to work on Lua?
20110320 23:02:15< Aethaeryn> mordante: Well, not so much volunteering since technically I'll be submitting a GSOC proposal and hence have the potential of getting paid.
20110320 23:02:27< CIA-89> elias * r48965 /trunk/data/tools/wesnoth/wmldata.py: [wesnoth_addon_manager] Properly encode description strings when uploading a campaign.
20110320 23:03:12< mordante> Aethaeryn, I don't call that wasting time, my time is wasted since silene decided it was a good idea to break exception safety in Wesnoth
20110320 23:03:25< mordante> and then refused to fix it
20110320 23:03:43< elias> Espreon: this should fix it. really should use the new wml code for this
20110320 23:04:11< mordante> so I got dragged into this Lua stuff because silene decided it was a good idea to break Wesnoth coding standard, that's what I call wasting time
20110320 23:05:46< Espreon> elias: It works. Thanks
20110320 23:05:55< Aethaeryn> Crab_: reading...
20110320 23:06:11< Aethaeryn> there's a lot to do with "experience"
20110320 23:09:04< Crab_> Aethaeryn: I was referring to the fact that the patch duplicates the logic which is present in c++
20110320 23:10:35-!- iwaim_ [~iwaim@rasteenie.alib.jp] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110320 23:11:12< Aethaeryn> ah
20110320 23:11:34< Aethaeryn> 58-67 in the patch?
20110320 23:14:49-!- eoc` [~eoc@pD9561960.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110320 23:16:56-!- zookeeper [~l@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has quit []
20110320 23:17:07-!- eoc [~eoc@pD956185D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
20110320 23:17:59-!- eoc` is now known as eoc
20110320 23:20:40< Crab_> yes
20110320 23:21:12< Crab_> Aethaeryn: and a number of other, less obvious but no more less important, code duplications
20110320 23:21:23-!- Unnheulu [~ieuan@cpc1-pnth2-2-0-cust788.5-2.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat]
20110320 23:22:56< Aethaeryn> Crab_: That's probably the hardest thing for me to notice as a UMC author.
20110320 23:23:01< Aethaeryn> We have to code duplicate a lot.
20110320 23:23:11< Aethaeryn> Whenever there's a lack of an interface.
20110320 23:23:21< Crab_> Aethaeryn: code duplication is one of the most evil things for the engine.
20110320 23:23:40< Aethaeryn> I agree that code duplication is evil.
20110320 23:23:41< Crab_> Aethaeryn: because each bug is duplicated, and if a feature is changed in 1 place, other stay not affected.
20110320 23:23:53< Crab_> Aethaeryn: basically, there is  combat(A,B,C,D) routine which is in C++. this is a harm_unit(A,B,C,D,E,F) lua routine which is basically 1 or more attack from combat, but allows more parameters because it allows to violate the game rules. and the part which handles A,B,C,D is, more or less, duplicated
20110320 23:24:26< Crab_> the fact that the c++ game actions code is a mess doesn't help much.
20110320 23:24:57< Aethaeryn> Crab_: Right, I'm in an object oriented class right now. I hear a lot about thing like "Do not just copy and paste code to reuse it."
20110320 23:25:07< Aethaeryn> Or, I guess in this case, rewrite it in Lua.
20110320 23:27:11< Crab_> it's not just about copy-paste, it's about 'don't duplicate responsibility'
20110320 23:27:29< Crab_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_responsibility_principle
20110320 23:28:26< Aethaeryn> Right, not having to keep track of multiple versions of the same thing.
20110320 23:28:39-!- dtiger [~dtiger@dynamic-vpdn-93-125-12-28.telecom.by] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20110320 23:28:58< Aethaeryn> Because it's hard to keep them in sync.
20110320 23:29:01< Crab_> yes
20110320 23:29:16< Nephro> Crab_, the vm seems to be totally broken... But that's np, I always remember the code I write, renew that tomorrow in a minute
20110320 23:29:18< Crab_> there is a lot of other evil things in c++ code, like recruit code telling the display to redraw some locations
20110320 23:29:23< Crab_> Nephro: ok, great
20110320 23:33:05-!- _Sergey_ [~Miranda@178.121.214.12] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110320 23:33:09< Crab_> Aethaeryn: for example, in src/actions.cpp, bool attack::perform_hit(bool attacker_turn, statistics::attack_context &stats) , 90 lines, from line 1204 to line 1493 do the attack stuff
20110320 23:33:20< Crab_> s/90/290
20110320 23:33:42< Crab_> that's almost 300 lines of 'perform hit' logic, stable & tested by time
20110320 23:34:48< Crab_> now, we see a lua version of 'perform hit' stuff, in the [harm_unit] tag implementation, about 100 lines
20110320 23:35:54< Crab_> and they are quite different, and that's a problem. maybe, we can rework both to have 350 c++ lines and 5 lua lines ?  or to have 5 c++ lines and 350 lua lines, without duplication ?
20110320 23:36:02< Crab_> Aethaeryn: that's a huge problem.
20110320 23:36:50-!- yann [~dwitch@nan92-1-81-57-214-146.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
20110320 23:37:27< Crab_> and, in lua, we have some ugly pieces of code with those WML tables using as args to other lua functions
20110320 23:38:29< Crab_> but duplication is a more serious problem
20110320 23:38:44< Aethaeryn> The WML tables are just, plain and simple, ugly.
20110320 23:38:53< Aethaeryn> Everything that needs to be done in WML tables should have a native Lua implementation.
20110320 23:39:06< Aethaeryn> Especially since many WML tags are, iirc, coded in Lua.
20110320 23:39:33< Crab_> yes, that is one of the solutions to make things less ugly
20110320 23:39:43< Crab_> however, it is not the most serious problem with those lua wml tags
20110320 23:40:50< Crab_> and note that WML tables have some quite good qualities, too
20110320 23:41:29< mordante> I also wonder what's against WML tables, WML is great for static data structures, its weakness is in scripting
20110320 23:42:15< Aethaeryn> mordante: look in wesnoth-umc-dev how I have to work around WML tables for right-click menus and message options
20110320 23:42:44< Aethaeryn> I have to call [lua] from the WML tables to launch publicly-visible lua functions...
20110320 23:42:50< mordante> Aethaeryn, please pastebin an example if you want me to look
20110320 23:43:24< Crab_> mordante: if the api is stable, coding a serie of helper functions removes a layer of indirection, making things easier.
20110320 23:44:03< Aethaeryn> e.g. http://wesnoth-umc-dev.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/wesnoth-umc-dev/trunk/Master_of_Dungeons/lua/modify_side.lua?revision=9011&view=markup
20110320 23:44:07< Aethaeryn> I abstract it away with objects...
20110320 23:44:19< Aethaeryn> But essentially the code = is lua, as a string, to be executed from a [lua]
20110320 23:45:18< mordante> Aethaeryn, when I glimpse over the file I see a lot of scripting, not static data structures
20110320 23:45:30< mordante> static data structures are thing like terrain definitions
20110320 23:45:57< Crab_> mordante: i.e.    ai.attack(3, 11, 3, 12, 1)   vs   ai.attack({x1 =3, y1 = 11, y2 = 3, x2=12, weapon=1})
20110320 23:46:17< Crab_> mordante: but, Aethaeryn's case seems to be different...
20110320 23:46:41< mordante> Crab_, I agree Lua might be nicer for scripting like things, but Aethaeryn claims it's also better for WML tables
20110320 23:47:07< mordante> and on that point I disagree
20110320 23:47:23< Aethaeryn> mordante: I hid a ton of ugly WML tables through object oriented programming.
20110320 23:47:47< Aethaeryn> http://wesnoth-umc-dev.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/wesnoth-umc-dev/trunk/Master_of_Dungeons/lua/DungeonOpt.lua?revision=9011&view=markup
20110320 23:47:48< Crab_> Aethaeryn: can you show the src for your options class ?
20110320 23:48:41-!- deekay [~dk@wesnoth/developer/dragonking] has quit [Quit: deekay]
20110320 23:48:53< Aethaeryn> I should not have to use [lua] code = "function_to_launch()" [/lua] as a rather hackish workaround
20110320 23:49:17< Crab_> Aethaeryn: basically, only the DirectActionWML is so affected ?
20110320 23:49:40< Aethaeryn> [set_menu_item], [message], [option], [command], etc., have been annoying me for months.
20110320 23:50:20< Crab_> then, ... DirectActionWML, InterfaceWML 
20110320 23:50:39< mordante> Aethaeryn, your example again shows scripting stuff, which is not a static table
20110320 23:51:22< Crab_> mordante: the problem I see here is different
20110320 23:51:27< Aethaeryn> mordante: Because I've extremely abstracted away the table code
20110320 23:52:00< mordante> Aethaeryn, no you did not your code contains if's which is scripting, not static tables
20110320 23:52:03< Aethaeryn> The table code makes that implementation 10x as hard as it could be if I could do [set_menu_item], [message], [option], [command], etc. straight from Lua
20110320 23:52:11< Crab_> mordante: when we script and construct an interfaceActionWML object, we know what 'callbacks' we want it do 
20110320 23:52:29< Crab_> mordante: but, as of now, we need to construct interfaceActionWML objects as plain WML tables.
20110320 23:52:38< Crab_> mordante: so, passing the callbacks around sucks.
20110320 23:52:57< Aethaeryn> Essentially, I use Lua to use WML to use Lua.
20110320 23:53:08< Crab_> mordante: because we need to serialize those callbacks to string, because WML doesn't have the 'lua function/closure pointer' type of data
20110320 23:53:10< mordante> Crab_, I don't disagree that for scripting Lua looks nicer, I disagree that pure WML tables look better in Lua
20110320 23:53:12< Aethaeryn> Lua -> WML tables -> command that fires Lua function -> more WML tables -> more command.
20110320 23:53:22< Crab_> mordante: I agree with you.
20110320 23:53:34-!- boucman [~rosen@wesnoth/developer/boucman] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
20110320 23:53:55< Aethaeryn> mordante: WML is better for basic unit, scenario, etc. definitions.
20110320 23:53:59< Aethaeryn> Which then should call Lua.
20110320 23:54:18< Aethaeryn> My issue is that when Lua is called, it shouldn't need to have to call WML, via the form of tables, to do very essential things.
20110320 23:54:27< mordante> Aethaeryn, exactly and basic units etc. are WML tables
20110320 23:54:52< Aethaeryn> No, I mean, WML for scripting things.
20110320 23:54:52< Ivanovic> mordante: i want to release shortly after the khalifate are in
20110320 23:54:53< Crab_> mordante: note that units might have this problem as well, if we someday allow to attach 'lua ai formulas' to units.
20110320 23:54:59< Ivanovic> (and when i got some free hours myself!)
20110320 23:55:18< mordante> Aethaeryn, yes that's why I said several time for scripting based things Lua might be nicer but for pure static tables WML looks better
20110320 23:55:53< Crab_> mordante: ok. but how we can solve this particular problem that Aethaeryn has linked to ?
20110320 23:56:26< mordante> Ivanovic, ok, Crab_ doesn't have time to fix the Lua exception mess I've to look into it, guess will wait until after the release
20110320 23:57:08< Crab_> mordante: e.g. when we need to invoke a message with two options, first of those must call a  'foo(a,b,340,x)' function and second must call a 'bar(x,f,34,{a=5,b=6})' function, where all vars are known and local to callers code 
20110320 23:57:43< Aethaeryn> Perhaps it's clearer what I was doing in a much older revision
20110320 23:57:47< Crab_> mordante: how we can add a 'lua callback' type to static WML tables ?
20110320 23:57:50< Aethaeryn> http://wesnoth-umc-dev.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/wesnoth-umc-dev/trunk/Master_of_Dungeons/lua/spawn_units.cfg?revision=8710&view=markup&pathrev=8749
20110320 23:58:34< Aethaeryn> see, e.g. around 486
20110320 23:58:58< Aethaeryn> There's hundreds of lines of unnecessary WML tables, I just got good at hiding the WML table parts in later revisions
20110320 23:59:08< Aethaeryn> Unnecessary as in, it'd be better if it were in Lua
20110320 23:59:13< Aethaeryn> But there's no way to do it in Lua
20110320 23:59:26-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: 1.9.5 planned once the Khalifate are in | 187 bugs, 304 feature requests, 20 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
--- Log closed Mon Mar 21 00:00:44 2011