--- Log opened Mon Mar 21 00:00:44 2011
--- Day changed Mon Mar 21 2011
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20110321 00:02:39< Crab_> Aethaeryn: lets work from the serialization perspective... imagine we have a set_menu_item backed by lua code
20110321 00:02:45< mordante> Crab_, am not entirely sure what would be the best way
20110321 00:02:47< Crab_> Aethaeryn: then, we save the game and reload it
20110321 00:03:03< mordante> but I'm against this WML table bashing
20110321 00:03:04< Crab_> Aethaeryn: how we can restore our precious 'context' of the menu item ?
20110321 00:03:17< Crab_> mordante: I believe they are bashed only in this context )
20110321 00:03:41< Crab_> Aethaeryn: as we need to write down what this menu item does...
20110321 00:03:57< Crab_> Aethaeryn: and we write down WML (basically, a tree of strings)
20110321 00:04:26< mordante> Aethaeryn started to bash static WML tables and I consider his examples not static WML tables
20110321 00:04:43< mordante> the examples show the more scripting like WML structures
20110321 00:04:58< mordante> and that part is where WML is weaker
20110321 00:05:36< Crab_> mordante: yes, his examples are scripting. but they require the use of static wml tables atm to work with InterfaceActionsWML tags.
20110321 00:05:46< Aethaeryn> *That* was my point, that I would like to do my scripting in Lua and Lua alone.
20110321 00:06:01< Crab_> Aethaeryn: lets answer the savegame question first :)
20110321 00:06:04< Aethaeryn> Right now, I'm forced to use WML for the very things that I would like to use Lua over WML for the most.
20110321 00:06:46< Crab_> Aethaeryn: because if we answer it with "yes, we know a way", your question is automagically solved.
20110321 00:07:05< Aethaeryn> hmm
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20110321 00:07:26< Crab_> Aethaeryn: and if we answer "no, we can't think how to code it", we'll need to consider a weaker solutions (like allowing lua scripting for dialog sequences where you can't save the game in the middle of the dialog)
20110321 00:08:06< Crab_> Aethaeryn: the weaker solution is easy enough, just code some lua variants of all useful interfaceWML tags like 'message with options' and it'll work.
20110321 00:08:37< Crab_> Aethaeryn: and the 'start points' of the weaker solutions would be static [lua] blocks.
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20110321 00:10:01< mordante> Crab_, I also agree that the combination also isn't too great
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20110321 00:10:29< Crab_> btw, if the answer is "yes, we know a way", then the easy solution is to change  [command] [lua] your_code_here [/lua] [/command] with  [command] saved_code=serialize(your_code_here) [lua] deserialize_and_run(saved_code) [/lua] [/command]
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20110321 00:10:53< mordante> however I'm quite reluctant to just move everything to Lua
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20110321 00:11:03< Aethaeryn> mordante: I didn't mean everything.
20110321 00:11:13< Aethaeryn> I meant everything except unit definitions, scenario definitions, etc.
20110321 00:11:15< Crab_> mordante: note that the ^ doesn't involve moving code to lua at all
20110321 00:11:16< Aethaeryn> The stuff WML does fine.
20110321 00:11:18< mordante> especially since thusfar Lua already caused me a lot of wasted time
20110321 00:11:28< Aethaeryn> And I don't mean move...
20110321 00:11:32< Aethaeryn> Just replicate functionality.
20110321 00:11:41< Crab_> Aethaeryn: replication is evil :))
20110321 00:11:53< Crab_> mordante: the issue is 'how to pass state from lua to wml?'
20110321 00:12:33< mordante> yup, not sure what the best way is either
20110321 00:12:34< Crab_> mordante: and one of the solutions is to 'get wml out of the picture, to find the way to do the interface actions in lua'
20110321 00:12:40< Aethaeryn> anyway, need to finish project due in a few hours
20110321 00:13:04< Crab_> mordante: and another solution is 'find a more-or-less usable serialization of lua state to wml'
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20110321 00:13:31< mordante> personally I feel more comfortable with the latter idea
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20110321 00:14:35< mordante> especially since we seem to jump from language to language I rather not convert everything to the 'language of the day'
20110321 00:14:38< Crab_> mordante: the issue at hand is 'how to do it?'
20110321 00:15:33< Crab_> mordante: we can call global lua routines, we can supply args to these where args are simple numbers/strings/etc
20110321 00:16:50 * mordante nods
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20110321 00:17:02< mordante> but I'm off now, night
20110321 00:17:06< Crab_> mordante: night
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20110321 00:17:35< shadowmaster> language of the day uh? that creates so many possibilities for distasteful jokes... :D
20110321 00:20:37< Crab_> Aethaeryn: what do you think of a hybrid solution ? (1) limit entry points to       FOO(a,b,c,d,...) functions where FOO is global and a,b,c,d are   wesnoth vars or inline strings  (2) make it possible to program non-entry points using callbacks to functions/closures.
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20110321 00:25:01< Aethaeryn> Crab_: seems to sound good, but I really do want to turn in my project asap so I have to stop IRCing on the side
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20110321 00:25:08< Aethaeryn> It's due in about 4 hours
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20110321 00:39:38< Seiyria> hey folks, out of curiosity: I was interested in helping out with wesnoth as a student for GSoC, but I don't know a whole lot of C++ (I've got about two years of java and five years of general programming down) -- would it still be beneficial to give it a shot?
20110321 00:41:18< Crab_> Seiyria: yes. top 3 factors that determine your success: 1) time you spend during the application period 2) your capacity to learn new things and apply them in practice 3) your ability to find areas that need improvement and applying your skills to them
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20110321 00:42:59< Seiyria> thank you very much, Crab.
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20110321 00:43:43< Seiyria> and by the way, congratulations on getting accepted to GSoC -- I just saw it earlier today via RSS :D
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20110321 00:46:22< Seiyria> another thing I was curious about (it's been a while since I last opened wesnoth): is there any plans or thoughts of having a "patching" system in place, so you don't have to re-download the game every major update? or is that already in place?
20110321 00:49:13< Crab_> Seiyria: thanks )
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20110321 00:50:09< Seiyria> ah, don't mind me. I answered my own question with a forum search
20110321 00:50:20< Crab_> Seiyria: we talked about it, especially in the context of 'wml-only bugs' and in the context of moving things from c++ to lua where it's easier to change them. but current system works ok for most people, especially since the bandwidths seems to move up each year.
20110321 00:50:38< Crab_> Seiyria: plus, there are XDelta-based source updates
20110321 00:50:42< Seiyria> yeah, I saw that
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20110321 00:51:12< Seiyria> that's pretty nifty by itself
20110321 01:06:33< Nephro> I bet I'll have a fun ride trying to make SVN work on windows
20110321 01:06:46< Seiyria> why do you say that?
20110321 01:07:06< Seiyria> I've never had any problems with a server or client for svn on windows =P
20110321 01:07:10< Nephro> Not a fan of microsoft products
20110321 01:07:15< Seiyria> ah.
20110321 01:07:19< Seiyria> understandable.
20110321 01:07:37< Crab_> Nephro: svn runs ok on windows. the only f***up is with file names.
20110321 01:07:50< Crab_> Nephro: in case someone renames foo.txt to Foo.txt, you'll have some fun.
20110321 01:08:25< Nephro> I can imagine... Is the situation with linux svn the same?
20110321 01:09:13< shadowmaster> no
20110321 01:09:39< shadowmaster> unless you have your SVN checkout in a case-insensitive filesystem/configuration, of course
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20110321 01:24:24< Nephro> Hmm... The sources I compiled were downloaded in an archive... Will everything be ok if I do svn checkout to the same directory... I think it should be, but gotta ask anyways
20110321 01:31:26< Crab_> Nephro: you can always checkout into a different dir, just in case :)
20110321 01:31:45< Nephro> But the compiled code is clean, so there's nothing to lose
20110321 01:32:13< Nephro> and it has the executable prepared, and the project etc...
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20110321 01:37:46< Crab_> Nephro: yes :)
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20110321 02:03:46 * Nephro sleepz
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20110321 04:56:35< elbowroom> Hi
20110321 04:57:12< elbowroom> I'm a student looking into the Google summer of code thing
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20110321 04:57:45< elbowroom> ?
20110321 04:58:09< elbowroom> I am filling out an application page, it says I should make a copy?
20110321 04:58:28< elbowroom> How do I copy thae student application page?
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20110321 05:32:25< epyon|gsoc> elbowroom, applications aren't yet open
20110321 05:33:13< Seiyria> they open the 28th
20110321 05:33:50< elbowroom> I know
20110321 05:34:18< elbowroom> But they said you could discuss that application until then?
20110321 05:34:45< Seiyria> you can hang out, yeah
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20110321 06:52:06< shadowmaster> elbowroom: "mIRC" is a software application. IRC is a chat protocol.
20110321 06:52:15< shadowmaster> :p
20110321 06:58:16< elbowroom> ?
20110321 06:59:44< shadowmaster> in your forum post you referred to IRC as "mIRC", which is incorrect.
20110321 06:59:51< elbowroom> lol
20110321 06:59:58< elbowroom> How did you manage to read that already?
20110321 07:01:05< shadowmaster> you posted in Coders' Corner 9 minutes ago
20110321 07:02:13< elbowroom> well it is 8am in the morning here, I've been up all night. I'll correct the post accordingly:)
20110321 07:03:44< elbowroom> corrected :)
20110321 07:04:26< elbowroom> .. hmm if I wanted to be completely accurate wouldn't I need to say I didn't get a response in the chat group..
20110321 07:04:53< elbowroom> Like you suggested mIRC is a client (software) and IRC is a protocol . . .
20110321 07:05:31< shadowmaster> it's really an IRC channel, per the definition
20110321 07:05:31< elbowroom> So I guess the 'chat group' is where I'm looking for a respone that will be sent by IRC protocol and show up on my mIRC client :)
20110321 07:06:04< shadowmaster> as to why you haven't got a response: most of the people here live in Western/Central Europe
20110321 07:06:19< elbowroom> I see
20110321 07:06:24< elbowroom> I did not know that
20110321 07:09:13< elbowroom> well, I corrected the post
20110321 07:09:25< elbowroom> Is there any chance you could provide me with some information?
20110321 07:10:57< elbowroom> Who should I talk to about the google summer of thing?
20110321 07:11:08< elbowroom> And who can I talk to about the sprite code?
20110321 07:11:14< Upthorn> it depends on your idea
20110321 07:11:30< shadowmaster> in general, to create a new wiki page you just type its address in your web browser and go there; the wiki software will then offer you the option to start editing the page to fill in some content
20110321 07:12:00< shadowmaster> http://wiki.wesnoth.org/Foo_Bar for example
20110321 07:12:06< elbowroom> Well I don't have an idea really.. I just picked to start with the sprite sheet idea..
20110321 07:12:52< elbowroom> How do I make text bold in the wiki page?
20110321 07:13:04< elbowroom> I mean like titles and such
20110321 07:13:17< Upthorn> elbowroom: if you are referring to http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SoC_Ideas_Sprite_Sheets2011 then boucman is the person in here that you will want to get into contact with
20110321 07:15:57< elbowroom> Thanks :)
20110321 07:16:16< Upthorn> he was last present about 7 hours 20 minutes ago, and appears to join the channel most days and leave for the night
20110321 07:16:29< Upthorn> I'm not seeing a reliable pattern in his join times, though
20110321 07:16:51< Upthorn> so I can't tell you how long you should expect before he comes on today
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20110321 07:22:07< elbowroom> That is fine :) I'm at work right now (night shift started 8 hours ago) and I'll be on later this evning
20110321 07:22:14< elbowroom> *I mean in the evning
20110321 07:22:35< elbowroom> *evening
20110321 07:22:51< elbowroom> I could sure use a village to rest and recover in
20110321 07:24:32< elbowroom> I read about the challange and I think it is the right one for me.
20110321 07:24:41< elbowroom> It seems like the stuff I deal with most of the time.
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20110321 07:25:18< elbowroom> Thanks for taking the time to chat with me.:)
20110321 07:29:46< elbowroom> bye
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20110321 07:30:48< Nephro>  /msg NickServ identify gfccdjhl
20110321 07:31:02< Nephro> fail
20110321 07:31:14< SeiSleep> why not just use /ns? :p
20110321 07:31:47< shadowmaster> Nephro: change your password as soon as you can. Consider using accountname:password in your config's server password field in the future.
20110321 07:32:27< SeiSleep> is that how that works? I always just added a command to auth me when I connect
20110321 07:33:07< shadowmaster> yes
20110321 07:33:18< SeiSleep> neato.
20110321 07:33:22< SeiSleep> learn something new every day.
20110321 07:33:29< SeiSleep> unfortunately.. it's past midnight, so I guess that's all I learn today :(
20110321 07:34:04< SeiSleep> should probably actually sleep.
20110321 07:34:08< SeiSleep> accursed pokemon game
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20110321 08:12:01< CharlieM> Trying to do a checkout via Tortoise SVN using svn://svn.gna.org/svn/wesnoth/trunk wesnoth    getting URL 'svn://svn.gna.org/svn/wesnoth/trunk%20wesnoth' doesn't exist
20110321 08:12:18< CharlieM> <-- SVN noob, am I missing something simple?
20110321 08:14:05< shadowmaster> yes. the " wesnoth" part at the end doesn't belong in the URI
20110321 08:14:33< CharlieM> that did it, thanks heh
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--- Log opened Mon Mar 21 09:31:49 2011
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20110321 09:32:07-!- Topic for #wesnoth-dev: 1.9.5 planned once the Khalifate are in | 187 bugs, 304 feature requests, 20 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
20110321 09:32:07-!- Topic set by wesbot [~wesbot@wesnoth/bot/wesbot] [Sun Mar 20 23:59:26 2011]
20110321 09:32:07[Users #wesnoth-dev]
20110321 09:32:07[ _Sergey_  ] [ elbowroom ] [ grzywacz ] [ LordNasty   ] [ srk9     ] 
20110321 09:32:07[ ABCD      ] [ elias     ] [ happygrue] [ mcsmash     ] [ Tigge    ] 
20110321 09:32:07[ AI0867    ] [ eoc|off   ] [ Ingmar   ] [ molgrum_    ] [ Upth     ] 
20110321 09:32:07[ apoi      ] [ epyon|gsoc] [ isaac    ] [ mra2        ] [ Upthorn  ] 
20110321 09:32:07[ beetlenaut] [ erl       ] [ Ivanovic ] [ nagbot      ] [ vcap     ] 
20110321 09:32:07[ Blueblaze ] [ Espreon   ] [ iwaim_   ] [ Rhonda      ] [ Vorpal   ] 
20110321 09:32:07[ CharlieM  ] [ esr       ] [ iwaim__  ] [ Salade      ] [ vultraz  ] 
20110321 09:32:07[ chris|    ] [ ettin     ] [ kahoot   ] [ SeiSleep    ] [ wesbot   ] 
20110321 09:32:07[ CIA-89    ] [ fendrin   ] [ knotwork ] [ shadowmaster] [ zaroth   ] 
20110321 09:32:07[ clanehin  ] [ fstltna   ] [ koan     ] [ shikadibot  ] [ zookeeper] 
20110321 09:32:07[ Dmitry_   ] [ Greywhind ] [ koda|gsoc] [ Shivansh    ] 
20110321 09:32:07[ dtiger    ] [ grigoryj  ] [ lobby    ] [ Smar        ] 
20110321 09:32:07-!- Irssi: #wesnoth-dev: Total of 58 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 58 normal]
20110321 09:32:21-!- Channel #wesnoth-dev created Tue Jan 27 06:28:41 2009
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20110321 10:28:19< Ivanovic> moin
20110321 10:37:31< koda|gsoc> hey Ivanovic, hedgewars got accepted to gsoc
20110321 10:37:36< koda|gsoc> so thanks for vouching for us!
20110321 10:37:38< Ivanovic> hey, cool
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20110321 11:26:10< shuvro> hi all
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20110321 12:08:34< Ivanovic> grzywacz: do you know what the status of the khalifate is?
20110321 12:08:54< Ivanovic> last thing i know is that noy wanted to work on it yesterday, but besides this i have not seen/heard anything
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20110321 12:42:54< shuvro> hi all
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20110321 13:22:04< timotei> hi
20110321 13:25:03< Crab_> hello, timotei
20110321 13:25:17< timotei> hi Crab_ 
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20110321 15:04:21< fendrin> hi Crab_, noy_
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20110321 15:06:49< Crab_> hello, fendrin
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20110321 15:22:26< Seiyria> morning
20110321 15:24:43< fendrin> Seiyria: Hello
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20110321 16:07:16< vdaras> hi
20110321 16:07:23< Seiyria> ello
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20110321 16:16:56< Sytyi> good time of day
20110321 16:17:14< Sytyi> can i talk with anybody about WML?
20110321 16:18:59< fendrin> Sytyi: yes
20110321 16:19:27< Sytyi> Do WML have any scheme like XSD in XML
20110321 16:19:45< Sytyi> is there any grammar or something like this&?
20110321 16:20:38< Crab_> Sytyi: the closest thing we have http://svn.gna.org/viewcvs/wesnoth/trunk/data/schema.cfg?revision=46664&view=markup  http://svn.gna.org/viewcvs/wesnoth/trunk/data/schema-gui.cfg?revision=42033&view=markup
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20110321 16:20:58< Sytyi> thank you, Crab
20110321 16:22:51< Sytyi> Will WML be extended in future?
20110321 16:23:39< Sytyi> * i mean the head ags
20110321 16:23:42< Sytyi> *tags
20110321 16:24:00< Sytyi> the top level tags
20110321 16:27:10< Sytyi> On what language should the WML validation tool be written?
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20110321 16:39:28< Crab_> Sytyi: yes, wml will be extended in the future.
20110321 16:39:38< Crab_> Sytyi: also, user-made code (in lua) can extend wml already.
20110321 16:40:01< Crab_> Sytyi: I think that c++, perl, python, java would be acceptable.
20110321 16:40:35< Crab_> Sytyi: note that only c++ has a true wml parser/preprocessor, there are some perl\python 'implementations' but they are inferior.
20110321 16:40:50< Crab_> you can go multi-language, as well.
20110321 16:41:22< elias> the python parser actually uses the C++ preprocessor because the re-implementation always had troubles
20110321 16:41:59< elias> will that WML validation tool replace wmllint?
20110321 16:42:17< Sytyi> i want to write wml lexic and syntax anflyzer
20110321 16:44:17< elias> just syntax, or also semantics?
20110321 16:44:19< Sytyi> on C++ and reserach for a grammar in EBNF
20110321 16:44:28< elias> i see
20110321 16:44:42< Sytyi> and semantic, too
20110321 16:45:30< elias> the main problem will be the preprocessor
20110321 16:45:59< elias> but there's a command-line option now so the wesnoth.exe can convert pre-processor wml to real wml
20110321 16:46:05< Sytyi> if nessesary, something like XSD 
20110321 16:49:49< grigoryj> Sytyi: there's actually a gsoc project for implementing WML schema functionality
20110321 16:56:37< Sytyi> yes, i know, and i want to paticipate
20110321 16:58:22< grigoryj> yeah, I picked that project too :-)
20110321 17:01:36< grigoryj> by the way, when submitting a proposal to the wiki do I have to fit it in a few sentences or should I elaborate?
20110321 17:09:59< epyon> If Lua would be used instead of WML, there wouldn't be problems with a parses :>
20110321 17:10:27< epyon> (*hint*, *hint*)
20110321 17:10:39< grigoryj> wouldn't it make thing tough for non-programmers?
20110321 17:11:24< grigoryj> but actually Lua _could_ be used for WML validation, if things start getting really hairy
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20110321 17:30:27< Crab_> grigoryj: be elaborate. check successful proposals from 2009 and 2010
20110321 17:30:38< Crab_> grigoryj: their project pages sometimes are looooong :)
20110321 17:31:01< grigoryj> What if I just put the link to the google doc I sent earlier? 
20110321 17:31:59< Crab_> 2009: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/index.php?title=SummerOfCodeIdeas&oldid=29872
20110321 17:32:00< Crab_> 2010: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/index.php?title=SummerOfCodeIdeas&oldid=35963
20110321 17:32:25< Crab_> links are fine, too. just listen to the devs feedback to see if you should add something
20110321 17:34:03< Crab_> i.e. look at http://wiki.wesnoth.org/MP_Server_Ilor or http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SummerOfCodeProposal_AI_Improvement_Crab
20110321 17:34:49< Crab_> basically, you should describe what do you want to do, refine it in talks with developers, and then demonstrate that you're able to do it
20110321 17:35:42< Sytyi> Crab: is this information for me? Sorry, but i'm a newbie in IRC
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20110321 17:58:12< fendrin> elias: The WML validation will most likely not replace wmllint for all puroposes. For example does wmllint convert WML to be compatible with the next version.
20110321 17:59:26-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: 1.9.5 planned once the Khalifate are in | 188 bugs, 304 feature requests, 20 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
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20110321 18:00:35< elias> fendrin: true, but maybe one could use the other... i.e. wmllint might use the new tool to access wml (if it has the capability to also write it back out, which is probably hard with the preprocessor)
20110321 18:00:49< elias> or the new tool could use wmllint's rules database
20110321 18:00:59< elias> for checking various semantics
20110321 18:01:10< fendrin> Right
20110321 18:01:15< fendrin> but I would go step by step
20110321 18:01:33< Crendgrim> if the new tool will be *a bit* faster, it will do its job perfectly.
20110321 18:01:34< fendrin> Let's get a checker right and see if we can extend it wich more features later.
20110321 18:01:35< elias> heh, yeah. for gsoc project just syntax validation should be a good goal I guess
20110321 18:01:46< fendrin> Right.
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20110321 18:07:04< Sytyi> <fendrim> Should the new tool generate any files or only check the existing
20110321 18:07:53< Sytyi> irc://freenode/fendrin,isnick and what type of input files
20110321 18:08:46< fendrin> Sytyi: Only check the existing.
20110321 18:09:07< fendrin> I don't get the question about the type right.
20110321 18:09:39< fendrin> It should check all kinds of wml files. Those are text files with the ".cfg" ending.
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20110321 18:25:04< Sytyi> fendrin: and what about cpp with special comments ? 
20110321 18:25:50< Sytyi> as mordante said a new tool should work from command line to allow including it in scripts. 
20110321 18:26:35< Sytyi> So the tool check .cfg files and just print out erros if there are some
20110321 18:30:18< fendrin> Sytyi: Have a look at the schema.cfg file that is a first attempt to define WML syntax in WML itself.
20110321 18:30:36< Sytyi> jr
20110321 18:30:39< Sytyi> ok
20110321 18:30:40< fendrin> The comments in the cpp files are used to generate those files.
20110321 18:31:18< fendrin> The wml validator should read that schema.cfg file(s) and check the other files against it.
20110321 18:31:28< fendrin> So ne need to read .cpp files.
20110321 18:31:41< Sytyi> So 
20110321 18:32:47< Sytyi> the tool  read cpp file, generate schema, and validate it
20110321 18:33:28< fendrin> no
20110321 18:33:33< fendrin> it does not read a cpp file
20110321 18:33:37< Sytyi> ok
20110321 18:34:54< fendrin> The extractor that generates the schema.cfg from the cpp file is another tool.
20110321 18:34:59< Sytyi> can i research for a grammar, write it in EBNF and then build an analyzer on that grammar? 
20110321 18:35:38< Sytyi> and should I think about something like XSD in XML 
20110321 18:36:42< fendrin> EBNF?
20110321 18:36:46< vdaras> is there a problem with the latest trunk revision and SCons? I've tried using the Code::Blocks project but it says that there is no Makefile. I've also tried to build in terminal but there occurs a problem with header files (e.g a source file includes "pango/something.h" but the file is actually located at "pango1.0/pango/" directory) I had no trouble building 1.8. I'm sorry for the interruption
20110321 18:37:14< Sytyi> just Grammar format
20110321 18:37:51< Sytyi> but with it i probably can write something like pascal translator 
20110321 18:38:04< Sytyi> but without generator code 
20110321 18:38:47< fendrin> The WML syntax is quite easy.
20110321 18:38:49< vdaras> Sytyi: do you intend to use a lexer/parser generator like flex or bison?
20110321 18:38:52< fendrin> Just tags and attributes.
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20110321 18:39:40< Sytyi> I dont know yet
20110321 18:39:47< fendrin> I don't think that flex or bison is a good tool to use for checking that.
20110321 18:40:08< Sytyi> i think a small tool will be faster
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20110321 18:40:45< fendrin> The engine does already check for unbalanced wml, wrong quotes and so on.
20110321 18:41:06< fendrin> What we need is a tool that sees: There is a mandatory attribute missing in tag x.
20110321 18:41:15< zookeeper> yeah, the syntax is really simple and straightforward when you get past the preprocessor.
20110321 18:41:21< fendrin> Or there is a unknown attribute in tag y.
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20110321 18:42:16< fendrin> One big problem is that you need to check preprocessed WML and translate the error to the actual line in the not preprocessed WML file.
20110321 18:44:31< Sytyi> and preprocessor is an another tool
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20110321 18:44:45< fendrin> The game engine itself is the preprocessor.
20110321 18:45:05< fendrin> And I would include the wmlchecker to the main engine as well.
20110321 18:45:55< Sytyi> ufff
20110321 18:46:03< Sytyi> i'm losted
20110321 18:46:17< fendrin> No problem, let's sort that out.
20110321 18:46:22< grigoryj_> fendrin: the stuff about translating line numbers sounds scary :-)
20110321 18:46:27< Sytyi> if any only direct things to do
20110321 18:46:28< fendrin> grigoryj_: yes
20110321 18:47:12< fendrin> Sytyi: You should start with having a look at an actual WML file.
20110321 18:47:26< fendrin> I would suggest you learn from a scenario file.
20110321 18:47:41< fendrin> See how the macro preprocessor works.
20110321 18:48:25< fendrin> The game engine is able to print out the preprocessed wml code, so no need to implement this.
20110321 18:49:51< grigoryj_> fendrin: btw, can you point me to a place in the code where parsed WML is actually used?  Not that I'm too lazy, but the project is quite large and I haven't done any work on it before
20110321 18:50:18< fendrin> grigoryj_: parsed WML is used all over the place.
20110321 18:50:29< fendrin> grigoryj_: Have a look at the config and vconfig class.
20110321 18:50:37< Sytyi> now I'm reading  "Defend the Forest" scenario
20110321 18:50:39< grigoryj_> Ok, thanks
20110321 18:51:00< Sytyi> can you show where is any macro
20110321 18:51:22< fendrin> #define .... #enddef
20110321 18:51:26< fendrin> defines a macro
20110321 18:51:41< fendrin> {MACRONAME ARG1 ARG2}
20110321 18:51:46< fendrin> Is a usage.
20110321 18:52:08< Sytyi> And can I include macros from the other files ?
20110321 18:52:16< fendrin> Sure
20110321 18:52:25< fendrin> You can even include complete files.
20110321 18:52:32< Sytyi> great
20110321 18:52:57< fendrin> Sytyi: Our wiki does tell you everything about WML and macros.
20110321 18:53:05< Seiyria> wait, you have to enddef?
20110321 18:53:20< Seiyria> I thought it was just #define cake(x,y) x**y;
20110321 18:53:24< Seiyria> (as an example)
20110321 18:53:31< fendrin> Seiyria: you have to enddef
20110321 18:53:46< Sytyi> and with all of this, i should find a line in unpreprocessed  file
20110321 18:53:57< fendrin> Yes
20110321 18:54:52< Sytyi> So probably i will validate this unpreprocessed file
20110321 18:55:26< fendrin> hmmm
20110321 18:55:52< Sytyi> and just count number of parameters for macro are missing; or preprocess this macro to find errors too 
20110321 18:56:20< grigoryj_> Then you'll probably have to effectively implement a part of the preprocessing algorithm
20110321 18:56:21< fendrin> say you have a [side] tag
20110321 18:56:35< fendrin> consisting of a recruit=
20110321 18:56:38< fendrin> attribute
20110321 18:56:49< fendrin> it can look like:
20110321 18:56:59< fendrin> recurit={ELVES}
20110321 18:57:16< fendrin> recruit={ELVES}
20110321 18:57:43< fendrin> I think that you will have problems to check that if you skip the preprocessor.
20110321 18:59:01< Sytyi> yes'
20110321 19:00:38< Sytyi> so there is a console tool working with .cfg files and doing the preprocessor stub when it reaches a preprocessor. 
20110321 19:01:01< Sytyi> Can I realize it with C++ or any other language is needed?
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20110321 19:01:32< Sytyi> *when it reaches the macro
20110321 19:01:40< fendrin> No, please use the preprocessor that comes with the engine.
20110321 19:04:25< grigoryj_> the g++ compiler does the line translation stuff somehow... we might do a little research and find out the algorithm. 
20110321 19:04:44< grigoryj_> Or just ask the the g++ devs how they did it :-)
20110321 19:05:00< Sytyi> We are stydiing these things now
20110321 19:05:37< Soliton> i'm pretty sure our preprocessor already remembers line numbers to give proper error messages.
20110321 19:05:49< fendrin> Soliton: That is right.
20110321 19:06:10< fendrin> Soliton: But it does not work perfectly.
20110321 19:06:42< Sytyi> can i send to preprocessor only  line with macro?
20110321 19:07:34< fendrin> Soliton: The proper error message part does not work perfectly.
20110321 19:07:59< fendrin> Sytyi: execute ./wesnoth --help
20110321 19:08:09< fendrin> Sytyi: have a look for --preprocess*
20110321 19:08:23< Sytyi> thank you
20110321 19:08:53< grigoryj_> fendrin: Well, then it needs to be fixed and reused during schema validation, right?
20110321 19:08:55< fendrin> Sytyi: You are welcome.
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20110321 19:09:51< fendrin> grigoryj_: Yes, maybe it does not need to be fixed since the schema validator might do the error message part.
20110321 19:10:21< fendrin> We leave some aspects of the concrete implementation to the gsoc student.
20110321 19:10:38< fendrin> You are not code slaves that just do what the mentors want.
20110321 19:10:50< fendrin> Doing the design is part of gsoc.
20110321 19:10:53< Seiyria> that's good to know, hah
20110321 19:11:53< Sytyi> maybe some little bugs will be cleared
20110321 19:11:56< Sytyi> maybe not
20110321 19:12:34< Sytyi> i try to have the whole view of the task for the beginning
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20110321 19:14:26< fendrin> We will choose the gsoc students based on the design the present. Beside other factors.
20110321 19:14:40< fendrin> design they present.
20110321 19:14:52< fendrin> So you won't get a full design from us for a task.
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20110321 19:15:15< Seiyria> hey, timotei
20110321 19:15:36-!- boucman [~rosen@wesnoth/developer/boucman] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110321 19:15:43< fendrin> hi boucman
20110321 19:15:51< boucman> hey all
20110321 19:16:03< Seiyria> heyo boucman
20110321 19:16:08< vdaras> hi
20110321 19:16:31< Sytyi> ok
20110321 19:17:03< grigoryj_> fendrin: What kind of design do you expect? Very detailed, like "I'm going to have the following classes and they're going to do this and that stuff, and I'll use these algorithms and these libraries" or a higher-level design? 
20110321 19:17:28< Seiyria> I don't think you can adequately design something with the former sense, but that's just me
20110321 19:17:37< Seiyria> being able to completely plan all aspects of your program is just .. unrealistic
20110321 19:18:03< fendrin> A higher level design with a concrete sample (a lower level design of only a subpart) that shows us that you can handle that as well.
20110321 19:18:53< fendrin> Seiyria: You will not need to follow your original design in every detail. We just need to see that you are able to do such things.
20110321 19:19:08< Seiyria> fendrin: fair enough
20110321 19:19:09< Sytyi> Do I need to create Idea with my design on GSoC Ideas page? (from template) or I should make a page anywhere else
20110321 19:19:58< fendrin> boucman: Can you help with the last question, I am still not familiar with our infrastructure in every detail, please.
20110321 19:20:00< Sytyi> and where i can place answers of the questionaire
20110321 19:22:11< boucman> Sytyi: create your own page based on the template (i'm not sure if the template links automatically to the idea page, if not please do so) 
20110321 19:22:23< Sytyi> thank you
20110321 19:22:32< boucman> answer the questionnaire on that same page, it makes things simpler for us when reading applications
20110321 19:22:35< elbowroom> Hi, boucman I've been wanting to talk to you about the spritesheet proposal :)
20110321 19:22:40< boucman> hehe
20110321 19:22:56< elbowroom> I'm interested in submitting a proposal for this idea on the wiki, how do I do that?
20110321 19:23:26< elbowroom> Also, I would like you to possibly consider inspecting the previous game I've programmed where I've implemented a spritesheet mechanism.
20110321 19:23:47< elbowroom> Basically, the one I implemented in the other game, had little requirement from the artist
20110321 19:24:30< elbowroom> It included a handy tool that divides the big png into useful rectangles and saves the data into an xml for easy loading
20110321 19:25:10< boucman> elbowroom: we would be glad to consider it, please link to it in your proposal
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20110321 19:25:48< elbowroom> hmm.. how do I add a proposal?
20110321 19:26:08< elbowroom> Also, is it possible to send a private link to the devs since the game is not released yet.
20110321 19:26:57< elbowroom> (Even though it was completed a few weeks ago) I've worked on it with an artist I'm waiting for him to decide when it is ready to be released.
20110321 19:28:33< boucman> you create a Wiki page on our wiki based on the student page template (any student around to point to it plz ?) and fill the student questionnaire there
20110321 19:29:05< Seiyria> http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SoC2011_Template_of_Student_page
20110321 19:29:16< boucman> once your proposal starts having some flesh ask some of us dev for an early review, clues, comments etc... we are glad to discuss WIP proposals
20110321 19:29:20< boucman> thx Seiyria
20110321 19:29:28< Seiyria> you bet
20110321 19:29:28< elbowroom> I actually created one
20110321 19:29:36< boucman> ok, good
20110321 19:29:46< timotei> hi Seiyria 
20110321 19:29:54< Seiyria> hello
20110321 19:29:55< elbowroom> I sent it by pm (on the forum) with a link to the complete version of the recent game I'm made
20110321 19:30:44< Sytyi> boucman: and can I correct it later?
20110321 19:30:52< elbowroom> Here it is: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/User:Elbowroom
20110321 19:31:17< elbowroom> How do I make a good proposal?
20110321 19:31:26< boucman> hehe
20110321 19:31:28< boucman> large question
20110321 19:31:50< elbowroom> Basically I have a modular engine I made for an adventure game that has a spritesheet loading feature
20110321 19:31:53< boucman> but since it's of general interest i'll try to answer from previous years and feelings from how we chose our students
20110321 19:32:06< boucman> we have three main criterias
20110321 19:32:21< boucman> 1) how confident we are on the technical knowledge of the student
20110321 19:33:22< boucman> we juge that through small technical interviews at the end of the evaluation period, through patches submitted, bug fixed, overall discussions with students, and technicall details in the proposal
20110321 19:34:04< timotei> Sytyi: writing the WML in EBNF will be ... tough. At least I had a lot of "headaches" trying to get WML written into a formal way
20110321 19:34:35< timotei> Sytyi: but that doesn't mean nobody can do it. I'd love to see that fully working with all WML
20110321 19:34:53< boucman> 2) how "social" the student is. We juge mainly from your attitude on IRC and the forums, if you help each other, repeat the mentor advices when we are not around, interested in the game in general. This also includes how confident we are that you will stay after GSoC (we are also looking at you as long term members of our community)
20110321 19:35:22< timotei> Sytyi: for example, here is the current grammar I use in the eclipse plugin: http://svn.gna.org/viewcvs/wesnoth/trunk/utils/java/org.wesnoth.wml/src/org/wesnoth/WML.xtext?view=markup
20110321 19:35:42< timotei> and it still can't handle 2 grammar cases which practically work... recursive to say so
20110321 19:36:04-!- Sytyi [~chatzilla@7-85-133-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
20110321 19:36:30< boucman> 3) the proposal itself, how good ant thought through it is, how consistent is the timeline,etc... We also take into account how you take our advices, how you reconcile contradictory advices from different devs (welcome to real life :P )  
20110321 19:36:31< grigoryj_> timotei: do you think writing WML in EBNF is even theoretically possible? EBNF is for context-free grammars while WML does not seem to be context-free. 
20110321 19:36:43< boucman> so yes, we are somehow already juging your proposals ;)
20110321 19:38:16< fendrin> grigoryj_: What makes you think that WML is not context free?
20110321 19:39:20< elbowroom> I relly like Wesnoth a lot.. I only played one campaign so far but it was very well written and the art is spectacular.
20110321 19:39:37< fendrin> elbowroom: Which campaign was it?
20110321 19:39:49< elbowroom> Tale of two brothers
20110321 19:40:07< fendrin> elbowroom: Did you play the stable or the development version?
20110321 19:40:15< elbowroom> The one where Arne goes to rescue his kidnapped brother and fight of the Orcs..
20110321 19:40:24< elbowroom> I think the stable version
20110321 19:40:30< elbowroom> Is there a large difference?
20110321 19:40:45< fendrin> There is a large difference art wise.
20110321 19:40:59< fendrin> There has been much work done on the terrain art.
20110321 19:41:11< fendrin> For example.
20110321 19:41:18< fendrin> Animated water.
20110321 19:41:22< elbowroom> hmm
20110321 19:41:24< elbowroom> nice
20110321 19:41:30< fendrin> But cpu consuming.
20110321 19:42:05< boucman> for all students interested, here are two of our best proposals from previous years, so you can see the sort of technical anlysis of coding problems 
20110321 19:42:13< boucman> http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SummerOfCodeProposal_AI_Improvement_Crab
20110321 19:42:19< boucman> http://wiki.wesnoth.org/GSoC-WesnothWhiteboard_Gabba
20110321 19:42:40< boucman> these were of course top of the line, but.... might as well learn from the best :)
20110321 19:42:54< epyon> boucman, question
20110321 19:43:16< epyon> boucman, #1) did they submit any other proposal for any other project?
20110321 19:43:40< epyon> #2) did they have anything to do during the application period?
20110321 19:43:41< epyon> :D
20110321 19:43:48< boucman> gabba submited a second proposal, though I don't remember what it was (he was accepted for the one I pointed) 
20110321 19:43:56< boucman> crab, no
20110321 19:43:58< grigoryj_> fendrin: Well, now that I think of it, I can't bring up any formal example. But the fact that tag order might be important sort of alerts me. But then again, maybe I'm wrong.
20110321 19:44:10< epyon> But honestly, such proposals are a value in itself for the project
20110321 19:44:11< boucman> and I don't know if they submitted for other projects...
20110321 19:44:30< boucman> epyon: hehe, you might want to ask Crab_ when he is around :P
20110321 19:45:01< fendrin> grigoryj_: You are confusing two different things here. EBNF will not have to check tag order. It must check things like open quotes are closed again.
20110321 19:45:04< timotei> grigoryj: well... I don't know so much about grammars myself, so I can't help in this regard. 
20110321 19:45:33< elbowroom> What are the challanges you expect with the spritesheet project?
20110321 19:45:37< grigoryj_> fendrin: Oh, I see
20110321 19:45:42< fendrin> grigoryj_: attributes are either a list or a string or a single word 
20110321 19:46:05< elbowroom> I understand it has to be flexible because the sprites are of uneven sizes
20110321 19:46:49< grigoryj_> fendring:  At first I thought we were speaking about defining schema through a set of EBNF productions... 
20110321 19:46:49< boucman> elbowroom: the design is one of the key points, it has to work in such a way it doesn't bother the artists in their workflow... and some artists like spreadsheets other don't, so a way to mix these workflows is important
20110321 19:47:23< elbowroom> How would you like them to input the data about the spritesheet?
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20110321 19:47:46< boucman> elbowroom: that's a question for you to answer :P
20110321 19:47:56< fendrin> grigoryj_: You misspelled my name. Are you aware that most irc clients offer tab completion for the user names?
20110321 19:48:12< elbowroom> I mean, I'm planning on making a tool that allows them to insert data for the spritesheet saying this is animation#1 , #2 .. etc
20110321 19:48:24< Seiyria> I made a tool kinda like that, elbowroom
20110321 19:48:27< grigoryj_> fendrin,  now I am :)
20110321 19:48:33< fendrin> :-)
20110321 19:48:56< Seiyria> it'd let you select areas and animate them, though I forgot how most of it worked, but we stored it in xml
20110321 19:49:02< timotei> wow, first time thunderbird queries me to "accept" a secuirty certificate
20110321 19:49:13< CIA-89> loonycyborg * r48966 /trunk/projectfiles/CodeBlocks-SCons/ (wesnoth.cbp wesnothd.cbp): Updated build commands in codeblocks-scons projectfiles to work with codeblocks 10.05
20110321 19:49:27< boucman> elbowroom: also have a look at how animation WML work (open any unit's config file) there are no "fixed animation naming" 
20110321 19:49:30< elbowroom> boucman: How does the game know currently which png to use for which animation? I heard it was a cfg file?
20110321 19:49:43< boucman> look in data/core/units/*
20110321 19:50:01< elbowroom> "fixed naming"? meaning the animation can be named anything?
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20110321 19:50:32< boucman> yes
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20110321 19:53:10< elbowroom> I'm really interested in this project so the best route is to make a proposal like the ones you linked to?
20110321 19:53:22< elbowroom> How do I add my proposal to the Spreadsheet page?
20110321 19:55:07< boucman> elbowroom: you didn't create your page using the template, please do and it will link automatically from http://wiki.wesnoth.org/Category:Summer_of_Code_2011_Student_Page
20110321 19:55:19< boucman> template is at http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SoC2011_Template_of_Student_page
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20110321 19:57:06< elbowroom> boucman: how do I use the template from that link?
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20110321 19:57:27< elbowroom> I thought I'm supposed to copy it?
20110321 19:58:04< boucman> yes, you copy its source into a new page then fill-in
20110321 19:58:08< Nephro> boucman, the good proposals you showed describe what seems to be their original ideas... I plan to implement ideas of Crab_, hoping to finish them soon and start working on my own ones... How do I fit that in the timeline? Crab_ hasn't explained the amounts of work to be done yet...
20110321 19:58:30< boucman> Nephro: guestimate :P
20110321 19:59:03< Nephro> That's a fun, but rather unpredictable way to deal with things :)
20110321 19:59:22< boucman> seriously, try to estimate how much time it take, later in the week when things are more fleshed out, you have discussed with crab, and have a better idea of what you're going to do it will come naturally
20110321 19:59:32< boucman> and we will be glad to proofread some more at that point
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20110321 20:00:33< elbowroom> So I click edit on the student proposal page, copy the source and then open a new page and paste in the source?
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20110321 20:00:44< boucman> yup, that's it
20110321 20:00:48< elbowroom> Are there any naming specifics for the proposal page?
20110321 20:01:08< boucman> not really IIRC
20110321 20:02:57< boucman> ok people I have to leave for now, i'll see you all later
20110321 20:03:06< Seiyria> goodbye
20110321 20:03:08< Seiyria> see ya around
20110321 20:05:38< elbowroom> bye, thanks for the help
20110321 20:05:45< fendrin> boucman: bye
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20110321 20:27:42< grigoryj_> Guys, I have a question
20110321 20:27:46< grigoryj_> "4.5) Include as much technical detail about your implementation as you can"
20110321 20:27:55< grigoryj_> isn't it the same as the description?
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20110321 20:36:47< timotei> grigoryj_: not really. the description is something like an abstract
20110321 20:37:02< timotei> grigoryj_: technical detail like: what data structures, classes, etc
20110321 20:37:06< timotei> diagrams:P
20110321 20:37:17< grigoryj_> got it :)
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20110321 21:05:23< fendrin> grigoryj_: description is more meant as a briefly overview.
20110321 21:05:38< fendrin> grigoryj_: It should not contain technical details.
20110321 21:06:03< fendrin> grigoryj_: timotei was quicker...
20110321 21:06:33< timotei> :P
20110321 21:07:20< timotei> so currently there are hedgewars/unknown horizons/wesnoth on my list
20110321 21:07:37< timotei> hopefully there won't be any others or I'm gonna "waste" my time deciding on one
20110321 21:08:20< timotei> Ivanovic: do you know by chance, if a user gets accepted on more than 1 proposal, say 2 or 3, who decides the final project?
20110321 21:13:00< eoc> there's a meeting to resolve this
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20110321 21:16:10< epyon> timotei, the meeting is done by the mentors, and they either ask you, or decide by themselves, then one of the proposals gets downvoted.
20110321 21:16:27< timotei> oh. ok
20110321 21:17:13< epyon> the sad part is that it happens *before* google allocates slots, so you can be chosen to one project, but not get into the allocated slotcount there, when in the other you would :/
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20110321 21:21:06< timotei> oh :(
20110321 21:24:19< Sytyi> timotei: Thank you for the scheme
20110321 21:24:26< timotei> Sytyi: you're welcome
20110321 21:25:35< Sytyi> now I'll work under this questions (Like grammar and else). As said earlier at least EBNF can be used  to find quotes unmatches (or a MP automat)
20110321 21:26:12< Sytyi> i hope i have enough time to work on the grammar
20110321 21:27:19< Sytyi> timotei: Do i need to fix some bugs over the project? I mean, is it nessesary  or just good to be so?
20110321 21:28:23< Ivanovic> timotei: in theory the orgs decide which one gets the student
20110321 21:28:50< Ivanovic> timotei: often the orgs that are involved ask the student what the student prefers to do, *BUT* there might be cases where the student is not ask
20110321 21:28:51< Ivanovic> ed
20110321 21:29:30< Ivanovic> (cases where eg one org does not have other "good" projects that would work out, or if the duplication is a result of the initial solving, then the org that had him accepted first tends to get the student)
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20110321 21:32:06< timotei> Ivanovic: thanks
20110321 21:32:17< timotei> Sytyi: what bugs?
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20110321 21:32:41< timotei> Sytyi: well usually solving bugs in your area is benefical. If not, you can either fix something related
20110321 21:33:37< Sytyi> timotei: Thank you for necessary info.
20110321 21:34:47< timotei> yw
20110321 21:36:44< grigoryj_> Guys, is it possible for two students to work on the same project or do you usually pick one student per project?
20110321 21:38:35< timotei> grigoryj: project or proposal?
20110321 21:38:49< timotei> grigoryj: a project has a number of mentors that mentor x students usually
20110321 21:39:00< timotei> so there is the >= 0 students on per project
20110321 21:39:46< timotei> but it depends, there are orgs who didn't select any student in a year
20110321 21:40:19< grigoryj_> I meant _proposal_, like for example can two students work on the spritesheets stuff, or wml schema, etc.
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20110321 21:41:15< timotei> grigoryj: iirc no. but depends on the proposal "bigness"
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20110321 21:47:50< mordante> servus
20110321 21:50:42< mordante> grigoryj, grigoryj_ I can't open the google doc document and I rather have all proposals together
20110321 21:51:19< grigoryj_> Ok, I'll put it on the wiki page
20110321 21:51:28< mordante> thanks
20110321 21:51:39< mordante> I look forward to your proposal
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20110321 21:59:54< mordante> Sytyi, I see you had some questions regarding the WML schema project are all questions answered?
20110321 22:02:21< CrabNicholson> Boucman, you are the mentor for the GSoC sprite sheet project, correct?
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20110321 22:06:15< mordante> epyon, timotei duplicates are know before the meeting and organizations are encouraged to look at it before the meeting
20110321 22:06:33< mordante> but during the meeting resolving a duplicate can create a new one
20110321 22:06:51< mordante> and at that time there's often no time to discuss with the student
20110321 22:07:26< timotei> oh. right
20110321 22:07:46< timotei> well, I guess I should start writing the proposal xD
20110321 22:08:31< mordante> already decided an org or still aim for several?
20110321 22:09:09< timotei> well, something inside me tells to go with wesnoth at first. maybe I'll pick other too
20110321 22:09:11< timotei> :)
20110321 22:09:18< mordante> :-)
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20110321 22:09:24< timotei> depends if I have enough time
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20110321 22:09:50< mordante> grigoryj_, theoretically multiple students can work on a project but it has to be big enough _and_ the students need to be work independently on the project
20110321 22:10:13< mordante> so for schemas and spritesheets I don't think it's possible
20110321 22:10:19< epyon> basically it needs to be split into two projects
20110321 22:10:21< grigoryj_> Ok
20110321 22:10:30< mordante> especially since they're both small projects
20110321 22:10:33< timotei> maybe just if we're gonna go opengl
20110321 22:10:50< timotei> and even with that, like somebody here said, it requires coordination from many devs
20110321 22:11:18< mordante> epyon, exactly but the independently is important, not if one student doesn't live up to the expectations the other student suffers
20110321 22:11:28< CrabNicholson> Who is the mentor for the sprite sheet project, I'd like to get in touch with them.
20110321 22:11:57< mordante> CrabNicholson, I added the project, not sure who's going to mentor it
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20110321 22:12:29< epyon> mordante, I was more refering to GSoC's policies than after effects :>
20110321 22:16:12< grigoryj_> yeah, I'd also like to know the same thing about the WML schema? Is there an appointed mentor for this project?
20110321 22:16:34< mordante> epyon, ok
20110321 22:16:47< CrabNicholson> mordante, I notice that the stable branch of wesnoth is 1.8.5 and the dev is 1.9.4.  Which code-base should I be familiarizing myself with?
20110321 22:16:48< mordante> grigoryj_, I probably will mentor that
20110321 22:17:05< timotei> CrabNicholson: 1.9.4, that is trunk
20110321 22:17:06< grigoryj_> ok, great
20110321 22:17:28< grzywacz> Ivanovic, I'm asking every now and then, but no news so far :S
20110321 22:17:43< mordante> in general for all GSoC projects they are based on trunk
20110321 22:17:49< Ivanovic> grzywacz: talked to noy in a query about it and it looks like they are still "far off"
20110321 22:17:54< timotei> CrabNicholson: 1.8 is stable, that means no breaking changes will be added to it, right mordante ?
20110321 22:18:05-!- Ivanovic changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: 1.9.5 planned for the next weekend | 188 bugs, 304 feature requests, 20 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
20110321 22:18:05< noy> well not so far off, but I need a couple of weeks
20110321 22:18:12< Sytyi> mordante: Thank you. I thnik I took the view. Now I'm designing wiki page. 
20110321 22:18:39< mordante> timotei, exactly and there will probably also be one more release of 1.8 
20110321 22:18:42< Sytyi> mordante: Just another one question. Are there any user - defuned tags in WML
20110321 22:18:50< Sytyi> *defined
20110321 22:19:18< CrabNicholson> Ok good, couldn't get 1.8.5 to compile :-P I'll try to compile trunk
20110321 22:19:41< mordante> CrabNicholson, which platform
20110321 22:19:59< mordante> Sytyi, what do you mean with user defined tags?
20110321 22:20:01< CrabNicholson> Up to date OS X 10.6
20110321 22:21:19< Sytyi> may user define tags by him own in special file. or the number of tags is defined by developers and glocal reference
20110321 22:23:35< CrabNicholson> mordante:  If you're interested, I get this http://pastebin.com/2P52dU6p
20110321 22:24:36< Crab_> Sytyi: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/LuaWML:Events#wesnoth.register_wml_action
20110321 22:25:01< Crab_> Sytyi: this lua syntax allows the user to define his own tags or to redefine existing ones
20110321 22:25:09< mordante> Sytyi, the WML structures the engine uses are predefined, but IIRC Lua can do some things on the fly
20110321 22:25:31< mordante> guess Crab_ just confirmed that ;-)
20110321 22:25:31< Crab_> mordante: the WML structures that the engine uses can be hidden by lua proxy tags :)
20110321 22:25:41< Sytyi> Crab_ , mordante : Thank you. 
20110321 22:25:59< mordante> Sytyi, but I consider that out of scope for the validation
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20110321 22:26:10< mordante> at least for the initial version
20110321 22:26:18< Sytyi> mordante: huuuugh
20110321 22:26:25< Sytyi> OK
20110321 22:27:00< Sytyi> mordante: I try to design system to be extendible for such things.
20110321 22:27:08< mordante> well first get the basics working before diving into the special cases
20110321 22:27:30< Crab_> I think that the architecture should allow for that, at least on 'concepts' level
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20110321 22:27:53< Crab_> i.e. something like 'later if we do A,B,C, we'll be able to allow lua-enhanced tags to do their dirty work...'
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20110321 22:29:34< mordante> CrabNicholson, which compiler do you use?
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20110321 22:30:43< CrabNicholson> for c++?
20110321 22:31:00< mordante> s
20110321 22:31:03< mordante> yes*
20110321 22:31:18< CrabNicholson> i686-apple-darwin10-g++-4.2.1 (GCC) 4.2.1 (Apple Inc. build 5666) (dot 3)
20110321 22:31:27< epyon> Lua?
20110321 22:32:16< Crab_> grigoryj_: basically, the 'Description' section of your project is the small (2-3 sentences usually) info which will appear in the list of all projects on the wiki. 
20110321 22:32:19 * epyon looks around
20110321 22:32:38< fendrin> epyon: a programming language, specialized for embedding in a core programm to script it.
20110321 22:32:40< epyon> Rewrite WML in Lua!
20110321 22:32:43 * epyon hides
20110321 22:33:02< grigoryj_> Crab_: oh my, I've already written something that spans about two A4 pages :)
20110321 22:33:23< grigoryj_> there are a lot of lists, though :p
20110321 22:33:30< epyon> fendrin, I know, I just don't understand why WML is used when the data could be in pure, self-validating lua :>
20110321 22:33:31< Crab_> grigoryj_:not, it's short atm :)
20110321 22:33:58< grigoryj_> I know, I'm working on the extended version on my local computer :)
20110321 22:33:59< fendrin> epyon: lua is better for coding. WML is better for information storage. So we support both.
20110321 22:34:15< mordante> CrabNicholson, g++-4.2 works for me on both 1.8.5 and trunk
20110321 22:34:17< Espreon> epyon: Let's just say this: if Lua took WML's place... most UMC stuff  wouldn't exist.
20110321 22:34:20< grigoryj_> anyway, time to push my doc to the wiki...
20110321 22:34:27< epyon> how is WML better for data storage?
20110321 22:34:34< epyon> UMC?
20110321 22:34:36-!- Seiyria [~Seiyria@75-121-183-237.dyn.centurytel.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
20110321 22:34:41< Espreon> User-made content.
20110321 22:34:52< epyon> Esperon, why?
20110321 22:35:01< fendrin> epyon: You already can use lua for coding a scenario. No need to use wml except for some toplevel tags.
20110321 22:35:47< epyon> fendrin, ok, then why keep WML at all?
20110321 22:35:53< Espreon> epyon: Why do you think?
20110321 22:36:15< CrabNicholson> mordante: Under 10.6?
20110321 22:36:15< epyon> Espreon, I see no reasons. 
20110321 22:36:26< mordante> CrabNicholson, no Debian Lenny
20110321 22:36:36< Nephro> epyon, because a lot of things are already written in it, like all of the single player scenarios... All that would have to be rewritten, retested etc
20110321 22:36:40< mordante> epyon, and what would rewriting bring us?
20110321 22:36:52< iwontbecreative> epyon: Wml is simple. Content creators need something simple. If they need more functions, then they can try to learn lua.
20110321 22:36:56< Espreon> Nephro: No, no, I meant from the start.
20110321 22:37:08< CrabNicholson> It looks like "warnings treated as errors" is my problem.  1.9.4 fails as well
20110321 22:37:16< iwontbecreative> But most of them don't know programming basics and WMl is easier than Lua
20110321 22:37:21< epyon> Nephro, that is a valid point, however it could be machine translated, and Lua is easy to selftest
20110321 22:37:22< CrabNicholson> "unused parameter 'event'"
20110321 22:37:23< fendrin> epyon: Because it es easier to get. Using a real programming language does scare some people away.
20110321 22:37:30< Espreon> Including me.
20110321 22:37:46< epyon> iwontbecreative, subset of Lua as a data language looks as easy as anything
20110321 22:37:50< Nephro> Espreon, are you talking about why you needed WML in the first place?
20110321 22:37:50< mordante> CrabNicholson, there's a 'disable strict compilation' flag
20110321 22:38:12< epyon> mordante, because it would be easier to self-validate
20110321 22:38:49< fendrin> epyon: Did you have a look at a scenario?
20110321 22:38:59< epyon> mordante, and reduce the code duplication, speed up parsing, and allow for more customization for those who know how to, keeping simple for those that dont
20110321 22:39:01< fendrin> epyon: Or at a unit definition for example.
20110321 22:39:02< Espreon> Nephro: No, I'm talking about if Lua were around in the beginning; not WML.
20110321 22:39:07< epyon> fendrin, yes
20110321 22:39:09< mordante> epyon, when I look at http://wiki.wesnoth.org/LuaWML:Events#wesnoth.register_wml_action it's still manually validated
20110321 22:39:13< fendrin> epyon: Can you imagine how it would look using lua.
20110321 22:39:16< fendrin> ?
20110321 22:39:27< CrabNicholson> So does this project favor cmake over autotools?
20110321 22:39:35< fendrin> epyon: Just port a scenario to lua and compare.
20110321 22:39:36< epyon> fendrin, yes :)
20110321 22:39:42< iwontbecreative> Autotools were removed
20110321 22:39:48< Espreon> Indeed.
20110321 22:39:49< epyon> fendrin, give me a sample
20110321 22:39:52< iwontbecreative> CrabNicholson: Use scons or cmake
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20110321 22:40:03< mordante> epyon, any proof to backup the claim that it's faster to parse?
20110321 22:40:12< CrabNicholson> Im using cmake, thats what INSTALL says to use.
20110321 22:40:25< fendrin> epyon: Wait, I will point you to the interface desctiption in the wiki.
20110321 22:40:27< epyon> mordante, lua's custom parser is faster than most current XML parsers
20110321 22:40:50< mordante> epyon, we don't have an XML parser
20110321 22:40:58< fendrin> epyon: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/LuaWML
20110321 22:41:05< epyon> mordante, it was built with speed as one of it's main goals
20110321 22:41:13< mordante> epyon, and who is going to rewrite all WML?
20110321 22:41:17< CrabNicholson> Nevermind, I see it here 'old autotools based build...removed'
20110321 22:41:23< CrabNicholson> So good to hear
20110321 22:41:37< iwontbecreative> CrabNicholson: INSTALL says you can use both
20110321 22:41:53< epyon> fendrin, which part should I translate as an example?
20110321 22:42:06< epyon> mordante, Lua will
20110321 22:42:13< CrabNicholson> I know, I was just meaning that Im not trying to use autotools.
20110321 22:42:19< mordante> epyon, sorry but I'm rather skeptical about rewrite projects, in my experience most fail and if succeed don't bring the promised gains
20110321 22:42:54< epyon> mordante, we have different experiences then :)
20110321 22:43:06< Espreon> epyon: Let's just say this: if WML went bye-bye, so would I.
20110321 22:43:18< shadowmaster> and me
20110321 22:43:38< epyon> Espreon, its so cool how you say that without even asking how would the new API look like
20110321 22:43:40< mordante> epyon, how will Lua handle the rewrite ?
20110321 22:43:55< mordante> epyon, not everybody wants to learn a new language ;-)
20110321 22:44:13< epyon> mordante, because the structure would be left the same, only the tagging system would be modified a little to be handled properly by the lua parser
20110321 22:44:16< shadowmaster> and not everyone has time for that
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20110321 22:44:48< epyon> mordante, soo, it's better to learn a completely new markup language than use one that is popular in the modding community?
20110321 22:44:49< Espreon> epyon: I've seen Lua. I don't need to see anything more.
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20110321 22:45:08< Crab_> grigoryj_: I've edited your page to put a reference to the proper project, and readded a <h4> header in the description.
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20110321 22:45:15< Crab_> grigoryj_: this header is important :)
20110321 22:45:19< Espreon> ... and who cares that it's more popular?
20110321 22:45:27< fendrin> epyon: Just choice any scenario and see how it looks in lua compared to it's wml implementation. LUA is fine for some heavy stuff where you need control structures. But it is ugly when you don't need many of them. So I am quite fine with having both aroung.
20110321 22:45:28< grigoryj_> Crab_: thanks
20110321 22:45:34< fendrin> s/aroung/around
20110321 22:45:45< iwontbecreative> epyon: You don't really need to learn anything in WML, if you've previous programming experience, WML isn't really new
20110321 22:45:46< epyon> fendrin, link?
20110321 22:45:46< mordante> epyon, our existing UMC user base knows WML, I don't know how many of them know Lua
20110321 22:45:57< Crab_> grigoryj_: to see why, see http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SummerOfCodeIdeas#GrigoryJ_-_WML_schema - it's your description section with the header in the main student page list for wesnoth.
20110321 22:46:17< fendrin> epyon: data/campaigns/*/scenarios*
20110321 22:46:25< fendrin> epyon: data/campaigns/*/scenarios/*
20110321 22:46:30< grigoryj_> I see
20110321 22:47:18< Crab_> with time, all the student proposals will be visible on that main page, so you'll be able to easily see what the others are doing
20110321 22:48:16< grigoryj_> Ok, so the initial plan is there on my page, everybody can see it... I'll work on refining it and adding more technical details. And of course I want feedback, the more the better :)
20110321 22:48:58< Crab_> grigoryj_: as a rule, just ping here when you want the page to be reviewed
20110321 22:49:14< Crab_> grigoryj_: so, we'll be able to know it's ready for initial review
20110321 22:49:40< Crab_> grigoryj_: we'll review everything in the end, some pages many times. but you can request a review early to get feedback
20110321 22:49:49< mordante> grigoryj_, I just glimpsed over your page, and I wonder is it planned the users writes the schema him/herself
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20110321 22:50:52< timotei> Crab_: was just about to edit it too :))
20110321 22:50:54< grigoryj_> It depends... we should have premade schemas for standard stuff, like campaigns and validate against them
20110321 22:51:34< grigoryj_> Ideally, we shall even have a schema describing the schema itself
20110321 22:51:35< Crab_> timotei: you're welcome to edit it. I just added a <h4> header and some template wizardry, so the link to your project is on the main ideas page as well
20110321 22:51:56< mordante> grigoryj_, did you read http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SoC_Ideas_Schema_Validation2011 ?
20110321 22:51:58< timotei> Crab_: yes. I forgot to do that since last time I've added/edited. Thanks
20110321 22:52:17< CrabNicholson> mordante: You'll have to excuse me, this is my first time using cmake.  Where do I use the disable-strict-compilation flag?
20110321 22:52:20< mordante> grigoryj_, the idea is that the schema itself is generated from comment in the source code
20110321 22:52:23< grigoryj_> yes
20110321 22:52:38< grigoryj_> but we can include WML into comments, right?
20110321 22:53:05< mordante> CrabNicholson, use ccmake or cmake-gui it will show a user interface where the option is
20110321 22:53:24< grigoryj_> or do you mean parse the comments with wikigrabber and generate schema from there? 
20110321 22:53:55< mordante> grigoryj_, yes that's the idea and either with the wikigrabber or a tool you write yourself
20110321 22:54:20< grigoryj_> okay, I see
20110321 22:54:28< Espreon> epyon: http://svn.gna.org/viewcvs/wesnoth/trunk/data/campaigns/
20110321 22:54:37< mordante> have a look at src/editor/brush.cpp to see a sample of nested WML comment
20110321 22:55:10< mordante> the format of the wiki comment in the source is not fixed, it's allowed to adapt it to function with the schemas
20110321 22:58:31< mordante> timotei, any idea about the latest comment in http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SoC_Ideas_Schema_Validation2011
20110321 22:58:42< mordante> timotei, this link https://gna.org/bugs/index.php?17868
20110321 22:59:03< CrabNicholson> mordante: compiling trunk, I'll let you know if disabling strict compilation solved my problem.  
20110321 22:59:05-!- zookeeper [~l@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has quit []
20110321 22:59:11< timotei> hmm
20110321 22:59:16< mordante> CrabNicholson, ok
20110321 23:01:36-!- Blueblaze [~Blueblaze@adsl-76-202-16-172.dsl.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110321 23:01:49< timotei> mordante: I can't reproduce it. Like I said, after being back in wesnoth, pressed ALT again, and then it worked :)
20110321 23:02:14-!- MeccaGod [majs@h14n4fls31o279.telia.com] has quit []
20110321 23:02:41< timotei> and even if I press it like a shortcut, not just ALT alone, it still will toggle off
20110321 23:03:09< mordante> ok thanks
20110321 23:03:16< grigoryj_> alright, good night guys.. or whatever it is in your timezone.
20110321 23:03:21 * grigoryj_ is gonna hit the sack now.
20110321 23:03:25< grigoryj_> bye
20110321 23:03:36-!- grigoryj_ [~javadyan@87.241.169.32] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
20110321 23:04:16< timotei> yw
20110321 23:06:11< Sytyi> guys, can you lok a little through my page?  http://wiki.wesnoth.org/User:Sytyi
20110321 23:06:27< Sytyi> it's just a first time page
20110321 23:09:10< mordante> Sytyi, I'm off now, best ping me tomorrow and I'll have a look
20110321 23:09:16< Sytyi> ok
20110321 23:09:21< Sytyi> Good Day
20110321 23:09:27< mordante> I'm off night
20110321 23:09:29< mordante> thanks
20110321 23:09:34-!- mordante [~mordante@wesnoth/developer/mordante] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
20110321 23:11:26< epyon> fendrin, http://pastebin.com/ttF1zLRL
20110321 23:11:36< Crab_> Sytyi: I'll take a look now
20110321 23:11:54< Sytyi> Crab_: Thank you a lot
20110321 23:12:07< boucman> and back...
20110321 23:12:19< Sytyi> now it's time for a home work!!! )))
20110321 23:12:55< epyon> there's still a lot to do even cleaner, but this is just a proof of concept
20110321 23:12:58< fendrin> epyon: I see. Would be fine by me. I guess that syntax would be fine for Espreon as well.
20110321 23:13:11< epyon> fendrin, that's what I meant :)
20110321 23:13:14< fendrin> :-)
20110321 23:13:53< epyon> It doesn't have to look different, but the benefit is that Lua's self-reflection could allow for a self-validator in a couple of lines
20110321 23:14:46< fendrin> epyon: I like the idea. Can you come up with a complete concept and maybe a rough prototype and sent a mail to the wesnoth developer mailing list?
20110321 23:15:41< Crab_> Sytyi: I've slightly modified your page to have proper meta-info sections (IRC, Description with header), so now your page appears on the idea list. feel free to modify the header and description as you want.
20110321 23:15:52< Crab_> Sytyi: now will read the proposal itself...
20110321 23:16:30< Sytyi> Crab_ : Thank you 
20110321 23:16:57< Espreon> fendrin: Yeah, that is fine, but... blargh...
20110321 23:16:59< epyon> fendrin, I could
20110321 23:17:09< boucman> for the schema people : in animation WML there is an area wher we accept [*_FRAME] as valid childs... though that probably should be handled as a special case
20110321 23:17:10< Espreon> Not sure if I like this...
20110321 23:17:16< epyon> fendrin, here's an example from a project I'm working on - http://pastebin.com/NchWTBrW
20110321 23:17:35< epyon> The top three tables are blueprints that validate items below
20110321 23:17:46-!- Shakey [~Shakey@12.190.80.225] has quit [Quit: We can remember it for you wholesale.]
20110321 23:17:49< epyon> notice blueprint inheritance
20110321 23:17:50< fendrin> epyon: Don't spend too much time. I am sure the attempt will be shut down very early.
20110321 23:17:57< epyon> and default values
20110321 23:18:13< fendrin> Espreon: Can you be more specific about the "blargh"?
20110321 23:18:44< CrabNicholson> ugh, I turn off strict compilation and warnings are still being used as errors.  Any ideas anyone?
20110321 23:18:57< Espreon> fendrin: As I said, I'm not sure if I like it.
20110321 23:19:00< fendrin> epyon: I see what you are aiming for.
20110321 23:19:02< Espreon> *this
20110321 23:19:04< Espreon> This idea.
20110321 23:19:06< fendrin> Espreon: And why?
20110321 23:19:12< epyon> fendrin, validation is only a couple lines - http://pastebin.com/UGna40Qc
20110321 23:19:17< Espreon> I don't know.
20110321 23:19:38< epyon> Espreon, everyone is afraid of changes :)
20110321 23:19:42< fendrin> nice
20110321 23:20:16< fendrin> epyon: I guess you already have a working concept. So it won't be much of a disapointment if the idea gets dismissed.
20110321 23:20:17< epyon> fendrin, I don't have to add how long this code would be if you'd be writing a validator for a custom language with custom datatypes...
20110321 23:20:50< epyon> fendrin, if I have the time I'll write it down in more detail, but you know as well as I do that it will be rejected ;)
20110321 23:21:18< Crab_> CrabNicholson: try to add -Wno-error to compiler flags, maybe it'll get the idea :)
20110321 23:21:41< epyon> yet there is one main benefit -- any language that has lua bindings (do there exit such languages?) has automatically a parser :P
20110321 23:21:46< fendrin> epyon: Yeah, too bad. It's not a good time for revolution, or is it? ;-)
20110321 23:21:57< boucman> epyon: at this point it's still ok to propose stuff that will be heavily discussed, if chances of rejection are too high, we will tell you early enough (it happens every year) and it still shows us you're actively searching for an idea
20110321 23:22:29< epyon> fendrin, I'm still happy that I at least made a point that the idea is sane :P
20110321 23:22:33< fendrin> boucman: Well said.
20110321 23:22:47< epyon> boucman, no worries, I know the drill
20110321 23:25:16< Crab_> Sytyi: ok, the page looks good for start. important things: (1) find out something from your project that can be easily prototyped (ask mordante) and do it, showing your coding skills. (2) fill out more information about your free time in summer.
20110321 23:25:59< CrabNicholson> Crab_: with cmake, where do I modify the cppflags
20110321 23:26:15< CrabNicholson> I opened ccmake but didnt see a field for it
20110321 23:26:16< Sytyi> ok, maybe tomorrow. Its 0 hour, and I need do homework. 3 course works in one semester is horror.
20110321 23:26:35< Crab_> Sytyi: well, there's still plenty of times, it's only the opening :)
20110321 23:26:38< Crab_> s/times/time
20110321 23:26:41< CrabNicholson> Good luck with that Sytyi
20110321 23:26:48< Sytyi> Thanks
20110321 23:27:58< Seiyria> a question, if no one minds -- in reference to "What programs/software have you worked on before?", what exactly is the question asking about? previous projects involved in, or what tools are used?
20110321 23:28:13< Crab_> CrabNicholson: CMakeLists.txt, about line 111, you'll see the place where -Werror is set, you can try to hack it out.
20110321 23:28:49< Crab_> CrabNicholson: and a couple of lines below you see the actual usage of that stuff to set the flags
20110321 23:29:03< boucman> CrabNicholson: fyi i'm probably the one to ask spritesheet questions
20110321 23:29:11< Crab_> CMAKE_C_FLAGS .... CMAKE_CXX_FLAGS_RELEASE
20110321 23:29:44< Crab_> Seiyria: basically, stuff that you have created/coded with your own hands
20110321 23:30:04< Seiyria> ah. if I have a handful of google code projects handy, would those be ideal to link there?
20110321 23:30:08< Crab_> Seiyria: yes
20110321 23:30:13< Seiyria> thank you Crab_
20110321 23:30:20< Seiyria> back to work on this, then.
20110321 23:30:57< epyon> boucman, fendrin, if I were to write a WML->Lua transition proposal, for what other attacks should I be prepared?
20110321 23:31:49< boucman> epyon: an attempt to move more code from C++ to lua, in particular in a way that allows easily changing the core rules of wesnoth would probably be very usefull
20110321 23:31:59-!- Blueblaze [~Blueblaze@adsl-76-202-16-172.dsl.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Blueblaze]
20110321 23:32:16< boucman> an attempt to get rid of WML will fail... you can expect a "add it to lua if you want but don't remove anything from WML"
20110321 23:32:33< CIA-89> iwontbecreative * r48967 /trunk/data/tools/terrain2wiki.py: Make terrain2wiki.py compatible with python3 (Doesn't break python2 obviously). This might be usefull for Linux distribs that come with python3 by default.
20110321 23:32:37< boucman> and this makes sense... WML is really easier for people that neither know nor want to know programming
20110321 23:33:04< fendrin> boucman: But I must say that I can hardly see a difference between his proposed syntax and current wml.
20110321 23:33:10< boucman> I think a "core mechanics in lua" would be an interesting project... it would give modders a whole new area to tweak
20110321 23:33:15< epyon> boucman, note the discussion that took place -- the raw lua scenario file would be as readable (or even more) than the current WML
20110321 23:33:41< epyon> And as a completely free sideeffect would allow creating a scenario that is completely random
20110321 23:33:48< fendrin> ^ right, It is somewhat cleaner imho
20110321 23:34:11< epyon> fendrin, my example was makeshifted. It could be made even cleaner
20110321 23:34:15< boucman> epyon: where is the example of replacement syntax ?
20110321 23:34:23< Crab_> boucman: http://pastebin.com/NchWTBrW
20110321 23:34:28< boucman> thx
20110321 23:34:39< epyon> Crab_, wrong link
20110321 23:34:46< Crab_> epyon: ok :)
20110321 23:34:50< iwontbecreative> boucman: http://pastebin.com/ttF1zLRL
20110321 23:34:52< boucman> yeah, I was wondering...
20110321 23:34:56< epyon> http://pastebin.com/ttF1zLRL
20110321 23:35:31< iwontbecreative> Some mistakes in that file tough, like a macro is being used as a string
20110321 23:35:44< boucman> epyon: with that sort of syntax, I don't really see the point... could you explain ?
20110321 23:36:02< epyon> iwontbecreative, yes I know, I was trying to be quick to make a point :)
20110321 23:36:15< epyon> boucman, you mean you don't see a difference? :)
20110321 23:36:19< boucman> iwontbecreative: preproc macros would probably be replaced by function calls
20110321 23:36:36< epyon> boucman, there is one there already
20110321 23:36:38< boucman> epyon: it's purely syntax, syntax is the least interesting part of a programming language
20110321 23:36:51< epyon> line #98
20110321 23:37:30< epyon> boucman, that's the whole point. From the point of view of someone that doesn't want to learn a new language it would stay the same!
20110321 23:37:53< epyon> but for someone that is willing to go deeper, suddenly he can even generate scenarios on the fly
20110321 23:38:18< epyon> aaaand it can self validate because lua is a reflective language
20110321 23:38:20-!- mjs-de [~mjs-de@wh.Uni-Dortmund.DE] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20110321 23:38:29< epyon> aaaand you get access to lua debuggers
20110321 23:38:35-!- stikonas [~and@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
20110321 23:38:46< boucman> and you break all our WML related tools :P
20110321 23:39:19< epyon> boucman, you'd be surprised how easy it is to work with lua -- I'd supply a WML2Lua and Lua2WML tool too ;>
20110321 23:39:33< epyon> written in lua it would be a two-pager at most
20110321 23:40:00< epyon> and writing any future wml tools would be waaay easier
20110321 23:40:02< boucman> epyon: well, you know what side you need to develop in your proposal :)
20110321 23:40:07< fendrin> boucman: Yeah, getting rid of wmllint is one of the points of the the project. Just ask Espreon or shadowmaster how the hate the tool by heart.
20110321 23:40:13< elias> no more preprocessor means it would be a big win for all wml tools i think :)
20110321 23:40:34< epyon> wow, suddenlt it's not only fendrin?
20110321 23:40:34< boucman> but seriously, there are all sort of interesting things to do in lua, but I think getting rid of WML is going to get a huge resistance...
20110321 23:40:37< elias> i doubt any wml tool right now can really deal with the preprocessor
20110321 23:40:48< fendrin> epyon: :-)
20110321 23:41:20< boucman> yeah, getting rid of preproc and having all the lua syntax sugar would be nice... 
20110321 23:41:41< epyon> fendrin, the irony -- in 3 days I'm giving a lecture on "Lua in Game Programming" xP
20110321 23:41:50< timotei> Seiyria: 3 course works in 1 semester is horror?:P
20110321 23:41:56< timotei> Seiyria: I have 6! :))
20110321 23:42:04< boucman> though I would recommand having (at least for a start) a wml => lua transparent conversion within the engine
20110321 23:42:06< Seiyria> wrong S guy, timotei :P
20110321 23:42:19< timotei> oh 
20110321 23:42:22< timotei> yeah :(
20110321 23:42:30< Seiyria> you're looking for Sytyi
20110321 23:42:31< timotei> Sytyi: ^
20110321 23:42:31< epyon> boucman, the summer of code project would only ADD, not take away. With both way translations.
20110321 23:42:57< timotei> hmm, epyon you are a student looking for gsoc project?:D
20110321 23:43:00< fendrin> Sounds fine to me.
20110321 23:43:22< boucman> yes, I start to see where you're going... i'm still not convinced, it's hard to say how people will react, I code very little WML myself, so I'm probably not the one to ask
20110321 23:43:25< Sytyi> timotei: ^
20110321 23:43:52< epyon> I think apart from approval, there would be no resistance. And after it would work, the supreme validation, tools and possibilities of pure Lua coding would attract.
20110321 23:44:07< timotei> Sytyi: I was talking about the 3 course works per semester = horror :P
20110321 23:44:28< timotei> and another gsoc for converting every WML in lua
20110321 23:44:30< timotei> :P
20110321 23:44:44-!- fstltna [~fstltna@74.63.219.251] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
20110321 23:44:50< epyon> timotei, the whole point is it will be done automagically
20110321 23:44:56< Sytyi> Schemotechic , Java Web service, and Database for java. And nearly 60 labs more
20110321 23:45:13< timotei> epyon: I'm neutral, I'm just watching :)
20110321 23:46:30< epyon> fendrin, I think I'm going to prepare that proposal -- but I count on a defensive word from your side when the flames start to burn :>
20110321 23:47:32< CrabNicholson> boucman: Sorry, I didn't notice someone said my name (been trying to get wesnoth to compile).
20110321 23:47:36< iwontbecreative> epyon: Will you also change scripts that work with WML?
20110321 23:47:37-!- fstltna [~fstltna@74.63.219.251] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110321 23:47:39< fendrin> epyon: Well, most of the time I need a defender myself :-)
20110321 23:47:49< fendrin> epyon: But you can count on me.
20110321 23:47:55< timotei> I guess a pool on ... WML Workshop would make sense and help in this regard
20110321 23:48:06< iwontbecreative> Not the big ones like wmllint that will benefit from this change, but the many other ones.
20110321 23:48:15< boucman> CrabNicholson: no problem, just saying
20110321 23:48:37< epyon> iwontbecreative, some of them wont need a change, but I promise to port all existing WML tool functionality
20110321 23:48:46< epyon> iwontbecreative, example tools?
20110321 23:49:05< iwontbecreative> easy ones like data/tools/terrain2wiki.py
20110321 23:49:16< boucman> epyon: don't do a poll right away, that would start a flamewar, just opening a thread with example syntax and asking what people would want, rather than if they would prefer it, would give you better feedback
20110321 23:50:13< iwontbecreative> And many that are not as easy like wmlunits.
20110321 23:50:14< epyon> boucman, posted from a newcomer that will start a "defend the tradition" flamewar anyway, but I'll do so
20110321 23:50:43< iwontbecreative> It's not that changing is hard, it's just that it's long
20110321 23:50:55< Sytyi> good night to everyone
20110321 23:50:59< Crab_> Sytyi: night
20110321 23:51:02< fendrin> Sytyi: Bye :-)
20110321 23:51:13< epyon> iwontbecreative, checked -- it wont be a problem
20110321 23:51:18-!- Sytyi [~chatzilla@51-89-133-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86.1 [Firefox 4.0/20110303194838]]
20110321 23:51:23< CrabNicholson> Does cmake produce a log file when it's compiling?
20110321 23:51:36< iwontbecreative> epyon: Ok, nice :)
20110321 23:51:43< iwontbecreative> Off aswell
20110321 23:51:44< CrabNicholson> I'd like to see what commands it's actually using when compiling
20110321 23:51:48< iwontbecreative> Good night :)
20110321 23:51:52< fendrin> CrabNicholson: I don't think so. But you can pipe the output in a file.
20110321 23:52:00< iwontbecreative> Good luck to GSoC people
20110321 23:52:06-!- iwontbecreative [~Thibault_@89.180.78.64] has quit [Quit: Good night]
20110321 23:52:33< epyon> boucman, apart from you, who are the main devs?
20110321 23:53:18< boucman> epyon: fun fact : wesnoth was the project that raised a bug with gna because it couldn't support more than 64 devs on a single project :P
20110321 23:53:36< CrabNicholson> Looks like I can set VERBOSE=1, maybe that'll do the trick
20110321 23:53:50< Aethaeryn> Crab_: Oh, sorry about yesterday, had to finish a programming project that was due at midnight. I understimated the time it would take.
20110321 23:53:59< Crab_> Aethaeryn: well, all's ok
20110321 23:54:05< CrabNicholson> nope
20110321 23:54:06< epyon> boucman, fun fact - it's the only OSS game I played before I found it on GSoC :P
20110321 23:54:13< boucman> hehe
20110321 23:54:39< CrabNicholson> actually it works, I just used it wrong lol
20110321 23:54:40< epyon> although I admit it was only because it was the only fun timewaster I had accessible on the iPad xP
20110321 23:54:46< CrabNicholson> make VERBOSE=1
--- Log closed Tue Mar 22 00:00:45 2011