--- Log opened Thu Mar 24 00:00:25 2011
--- Day changed Thu Mar 24 2011
20110324 00:00:25< Crab_> vjoe: however, practice shows that to get accepted, a student has to work with us to develop the idea to make sure both us and student understand what we want to do, and what the student has to offer.
20110324 00:00:44< vjoe> yes, of course
20110324 00:00:59< vjoe> that's why I would be interested in having a chat with you or fendrin
20110324 00:01:00< vjoe> or both!
20110324 00:01:02< Sytyi> fendrin: I see. But I think after talk with mordante that there will be no gui 
20110324 00:01:58< fendrin> Sytyi: Okay, that is fine with me.
20110324 00:02:13< Ivanovic> Sytyi: the task in itself is already *huge* when just dumping the results to std::out
20110324 00:02:34< Ivanovic> so yeah, if you love gui stuff this good be some (very unimportant) remote target to work on
20110324 00:03:12< fendrin> Sytyi: The important thing is that the errors are in a certain format so that for example the eclipse umc plugin can make use of it.
20110324 00:05:27< fendrin> vjoe: When do you have time to talk with Crab_ and me?
20110324 00:05:57< fendrin> Sytyi: The eclipse umc plugin is already a hell of a gui.
20110324 00:05:57< Ivanovic> fendrin: [23:55:56] <vjoe> I should be free from 8pm GMT
20110324 00:06:15< fendrin> Ivanovic: Thanks
20110324 00:06:42< vjoe> yeah
20110324 00:06:49< fendrin> Crab_: Are you fine with 8pm? I guess that means tomorrow.
20110324 00:06:55< vjoe> maybe earlier
20110324 00:07:13< vjoe> when I get home, i cook diner and lunch for next day
20110324 00:07:15< vjoe> and then im free
20110324 00:07:17< vjoe> :P
20110324 00:07:45< Crab_> fendrin: well, I'll be online sometime tomorrow in the evening, but I don't know the time for sure.
20110324 00:07:58< vjoe> well, 8 till 11 is fine for me
20110324 00:08:03< Crab_> ok
20110324 00:08:09< vjoe> i prefer not stay till very late cause I get up at 6
20110324 00:08:11< vjoe> :s
20110324 00:08:54< Sytyi> fendrin: Ivanovic: Unfortunately I dont know what problem I'll be working to. I have misunderstood the Validation task and begin work about the grammar and C++ validator. The main idea of validation is WML analog of XSD. I had even be dissapointed of this, but mordanrte said, that if i work on grammar more, he will find a task for me. 
20110324 00:08:59< fendrin> vjoe, Crab_: Okay, then it's 8pm gmt.
20110324 00:09:05< vjoe> cool
20110324 00:09:17< vjoe> btw fendrin and Crab_ where are u guys from?
20110324 00:09:20< vjoe> uk?
20110324 00:09:31< fendrin> Germany.
20110324 00:09:34< vjoe> ah cool
20110324 00:09:35< Crab_> vjoe: ok. note that fendrin and I, most likely, have a different understanding of the task (but our understandings overlap), so you'll have, to some extent, a choice of what to develop.
20110324 00:09:39< Crab_> and I'm from Ukraine
20110324 00:09:42< Ivanovic> Sytyi: it is always possible to find a task somehow
20110324 00:09:46< vjoe> oh ok
20110324 00:09:52< Ivanovic> Sytyi: and yeah, it is normal that the task "evolves" during chatting
20110324 00:09:56< vjoe> im portuguese but i study/live in the uk
20110324 00:10:02< vjoe> even though I will spend the summer back home
20110324 00:10:37< Ivanovic> vjoe: where you stay is not much of a problem, as long as you have regular internet access to use irc and are able to commit stuff
20110324 00:10:46< vjoe> yeah
20110324 00:10:57< fendrin> vjoe: Ivanovic isn
20110324 00:11:08< vjoe> i was just saying so they get to know me a bit more :P
20110324 00:11:10< Ivanovic> (okay, of course you have to be allowed to work there, but, in case of the EU for a EU citizen, this ain't no problem)
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20110324 00:11:43< fendrin> 't right here at all consequences. It will be hard if you life in a time zone where every possible mentor sleeps.
20110324 00:12:05< fendrin> Hmmm, stupid sentence.
20110324 00:12:14< fendrin> But I guess you can assume what I meant.
20110324 00:12:18< Ivanovic> fendrin: "worst case" for most students would be living in australia
20110324 00:12:37< Ivanovic> and even then it is possible to find some overlapping hours, since neither mentors nor students sleep for 12h each
20110324 00:12:45< vjoe> ha
20110324 00:12:46< fendrin> I guess currently "worst case" is living in Japan...
20110324 00:13:08< Ivanovic> ah, when living in japan you are currently not too likely to be able to actually participate in gsoc
20110324 00:13:36< fendrin> Right.
20110324 00:13:42< Ivanovic> besides the number of participants from japan is probably not too huge considering how open source stuff is usually spread over the world
20110324 00:14:17< fendrin> Yes, I always wondered why we have so few developers from Japan.
20110324 00:14:20< Ivanovic> you mainly got european and us people plus some from india, china and so on (where the gsoc money is *really* much)
20110324 00:14:27< Ivanovic> different culture
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20110324 00:15:21< Crab_> Ivanovic: tokyo +8 from CET, so 8-01 in japan is 0-19 cet ... so you can either get up early if your mentor is staying awake late, or stay awake for long and catch the evening-in-europe...  I guess it's doable, if you're lucky enough or willing to change your habits
20110324 00:15:40< Ivanovic> Crab_: like i said, any timezone is possible
20110324 00:15:45< shadowmaster> fendrin: we don't have any, AFAIK
20110324 00:15:50< Ivanovic> you always find some overlapping hours where both are awake
20110324 00:18:49< Sytyi> Ivanovic: yes. so I want to make a grammar based analyzer on C++ with UserFriendly errors. Maybe it wil be useful in content factories, and maybe some part of that code will improve the engine. 
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20110324 00:19:35< Sytyi> Ivanovic: but I need a weekend to append my project page cause homeworks take all my time
20110324 00:19:56< Ivanovic> ah, there is still lots of time, no need to rush it right now
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20110324 00:26:24< zaroth> if anybody except boucman cares about this Wesnoth GSoC idea: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SoC_Ideas_Simple_Content_Manager , please look at http://qct.sourceforge.net/
20110324 00:27:24< zaroth> and decide whether this existing tool doesn't make this idea redundant, since it should be a lot easier to modify this existing tool to Wesnoth's needs
20110324 00:27:55< gabba> 'night all
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20110324 00:29:04< zaroth> and it may not constitute much enough work for a GSoC idea, so I'm suspending work on my project proposal page ( http://wiki.wesnoth.org/Zaroth_Simple_Content_Manager ) until the decision is made
20110324 00:29:19< Crab_> zaroth: if the idea would be made redundant, are there other wesnoth-related ideas that you might be interested in ?
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20110324 00:29:32< Crab_> wesbot: seen boucman
20110324 00:29:32< wesbot> Crab_: The person with the nick boucman last spoke 2h 22m ago.  18m 18s ago they left with the message: Quit: Leaving.
20110324 00:30:05< zaroth> Crab_: i talked to boucman, but he's leaving now and couldn't look into it right now, so I'm leaving this message in case somebody else feels responsible ;-)
20110324 00:30:12< Crab_> most likely he's left for today and will see the logs tomorrow...
20110324 00:32:53< zaroth> as for other ideas, I haven't looked into them yet... I initially planned to apply for GSoC for a KDE project, but when I saw opportunity to help Wesnoth community and polish up my Qt skills with one shot, I jumped at it
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20110324 00:33:55< zaroth> but I guess I'll have a look at the other ideas anyway :-)
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20110324 00:35:10< vjoe> right guys, thanks for your time, i'll submit my question tomorrow, I still havent finished it
20110324 00:35:22< vjoe> I'll speak to you by 8pm then Crab_ and fendrin 
20110324 00:35:24< vjoe> good night!
20110324 00:35:25< zaroth> Crab_: I like this one: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SoC_Ideas_Multiplayer_Improvements_2011 but right now it seems a bit intimidating...
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20110324 00:35:58< zaroth> maybe if I did some small patches in this area it would start looking less scary
20110324 00:36:07< Crab_> zaroth: it involves some 'heavy' C++ coding
20110324 00:36:20< Crab_> zaroth: but, it can be done starting with 'small things'
20110324 00:37:17< Crab_> zaroth: the first step is to compile wesnoth, it should be easy enough, especially if on *nix
20110324 00:37:33< BaronControl> Out of curiousity, has anyone expressed much interest in (http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SoC_Ideas_Whiteboard_2011) ?
20110324 00:38:05< Crab_> BaronControl: not yet
20110324 00:38:58< BaronControl> Crab_: Thanks :).
20110324 00:39:14< zaroth> Crab_: which of the pre-gsoc ideas of the page would you recommend as the first task?
20110324 00:44:01< Crab_> zaroth: compile wesnoth, find code which deals with multiplayer game creation, and add MULTIPLE debug statements to it so you will be able to see what is going on when the game is created.
20110324 00:44:35< Crab_> zaroth: I suggest using quite heavy logging, involving some new log domains, like "mp/create/foo", "mp/create/bar"
20110324 00:44:55< Crab_> zaroth: so, you'll be able to use --log-debug='mp/create/*' to get all them running at debug level
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20110324 00:45:33< fendrin> zaroth: And learn about your goal. Have a look how difficult levels are handled in singleplayer and see the dirty hack that LoW uses to emulate it.
20110324 00:45:35< Crab_> zaroth: then, launch 2+ wesnothes (can be on same host, can be on different hosts), and see how they interact and what they do send to each other when a game is created and sides are selected
20110324 00:48:11< Crab_> zaroth: basically, I want you to understand the code and add a lot of log info to it, so we'll be able to change it and find issues without having to debug
20110324 00:48:38< Crab_> zaroth: then, submit the logging as a patch
20110324 00:49:28< Crab_> zaroth: and by 'heavy' logging I mean really verbose things, including logging the entire scenario configs to stdout, if explicitly asked for in the command-line switches.
20110324 00:50:43< zaroth> fendrin: Crab_: thanks for the advice/assignment! it certainly doesn't sound too hard right now :-)
20110324 00:50:59< Crab_> zaroth: that's just the beginning, but the code will be familiar afterwards
20110324 00:51:34< Crab_> zaroth: just to make sure, we're interested in things that start after someone selects a 'create game' button and that end when the game is started and everyone receives the scenario config.
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20110324 00:54:18< Crab_> Aethaeryn: note: if there are any questions or blockers in the implementation, ask about them.
20110324 00:59:08< Aethaeryn> right now the blocker is a Wesnoth game ;-)
20110324 00:59:11< Aethaeryn> I needed a break.
20110324 00:59:19< Crab_> Aethaeryn: :))
20110324 00:59:47< Crab_> zaroth: you can start by taking a debug build, and breaking into debugger to see the stacktrace in the map\scenario selection screens. most likely, it'll be somewhere in src/multiplayer_create.cpp or src/multiplayer_connect.cpp. about 2.5k lines, so lots of code.
20110324 01:10:42< Aethaeryn> yeah, that's what's throwing me
20110324 01:10:45< Aethaeryn> the sheer volume of code
20110324 01:10:59< Aethaeryn> it'll take me a while to get used to it
20110324 01:11:14< zaroth> is there a way to skip these translation generation thingies from cmake ? I use only US English anyway, and this takes a lot of time every time I do svn update...
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20110324 01:36:48< BaronControl> I just skimmed through the g++ man pages and came up empty; is there any way to ignore errors and just keep compiling :D Especially silly errors (ie. safely ignoreable and non-syntax related).
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20110324 01:47:15< BaronControl> OK, so this is a rather odd question, but is there any way to tell cmake which cxx_flags 'not' to write?
20110324 01:50:38< Espreon> cmake -i... is awesome.
20110324 01:51:26< shadowmaster> Espreon: cmake -i is crap IMO. I'd rather use a complete UI like ccmake's
20110324 01:51:38< shadowmaster> or cmake-qt's.
20110324 01:51:54< zaroth> Espreon: awesome!
20110324 01:52:02< shadowmaster> (I'd rather not use cmake.)
20110324 01:52:13< zaroth> I was just wondering how to enable debug build ;-) 
20110324 01:52:25< zaroth> I hope cmake -i will answer this question
20110324 01:53:34< BaronControl> I kinda figured that it was cmake --enable-debug .,  but eh.
20110324 01:54:20< zaroth> I kinda figured that this info should be on http://wiki.wesnoth.org/DebugMode , but meh, only autotools info was there :D
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20110324 01:58:33< shadowmaster> zaroth: how about now? http://wiki.wesnoth.org/DebugMode#Building_the_game_with_extra_debugging
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20110324 01:59:08< zaroth> shadowmaster: much better, thanks :-)
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20110324 02:01:08< saurabh> hello i have a query ?
20110324 02:01:52< Crab_> saurabh: the usual policy is 'if you have a question, just ask'
20110324 02:02:27< saurabh> oh sorry.does wesnoth allow multiple players from your team to move together be selecting them and giving commands.
20110324 02:03:07< saurabh> or you have to select each unit one by one
20110324 02:06:21< saurabh> anyone willing to answer this ?
20110324 02:07:30< Crab_> no, units are moved one by one
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20110324 02:07:41< shadowmaster> "An unstripped debug build on linux is over 80MB, compared to 2-3MB stripped."
20110324 02:07:52< shadowmaster> oookay...
20110324 02:07:55< shadowmaster> shadowm@reicore:~/src/wesnoth$ du -sh wesnoth-debug wesnoth
20110324 02:07:55< shadowmaster> 453M    wesnoth-debug
20110324 02:07:55< shadowmaster> 13M     wesnoth
20110324 02:08:16< Crab_> shadowmaster: growing we are, to world domination destined )
20110324 02:08:40< Crab_> shadowmaster: and the git repository grows, too, even when packed....
20110324 02:09:13< shadowmaster> 1.9 GiB here
20110324 02:09:42< saurabh> So can this be implemented as an idea. I mean if i give a command to kill a single player using 3 players. I have to order three times even though i am quite certain that those 3 will the 1 player from other team
20110324 02:12:47< Crab_> saurabh: wesnoth is random, it is hard to plan in advance. in 2010, a whiteboard mode was implemented to allow to 'plan moves' ahead. moves are still executed one at a time.  the page where whiteboard is described is http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SoC_Ideas_Whiteboard_2011
20110324 02:13:32< Crab_> saurabh: extension and improvement of wesnoth whiteboard system can be implemented as an idea.
20110324 02:30:03< zaroth> good night!
20110324 02:30:35< Crab_> night, zaroth
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20110324 05:51:15< BaronControl> Very quickly: there are a bunch of flags being set in flags.make which are both redundant and causing my compile to fail. Anyone know where I can start looking to correct this? :D
20110324 05:51:45< BaronControl> Er, those would be 'all' of the flags.make's which get generated when cmake is called.
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20110324 05:54:14< BaronControl> To be more specific, under CXX_FLAGS there's Werror (which makes all warnings into errors) and mno-cygwin (which produces errors when compiled with a recent version of g++).
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20110324 07:38:20< shadowmaster> boucman: do I need a second unit filter to play a recruit animation with [animate_unit] ?
20110324 07:41:24< shadowmaster> actually, that doesn't seem to make any difference. I still don't see any animation when using flag=recruiting
20110324 07:42:07< shadowmaster> (that's right; I want to play a recruiting animation for the recruiter, not a recruited animation for the recruitee)
20110324 07:42:59< vultraz> so 1.9.5 is out this weekend?
20110324 07:43:22< shadowmaster> (repeating the "recruit" root so many times makes me a victim of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semantic_satiation)
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20110324 09:13:23< Ivanovic> moin
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20110324 10:41:21< zaroth> hmm, what does it mean if the PM I send on forum stays in my Outbox and I don't see it in Sent messages?
20110324 10:41:32< zaroth> Does it mean that the user hasn't logged/received my PM yet?
20110324 10:41:40< zaroth> s/logged/logged in/
20110324 10:43:48< zookeeper> yes, they haven't read it yet
20110324 10:44:48 * zookeeper has 4 PMs in outbox, sent 2007-2008
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20110324 11:37:59< zaroth> I just wondered why cursor in wesnoth SVN version froze every 3 seconds
20110324 11:38:13< zaroth> than I looked at "top", figured it and killed folding@home client
20110324 11:38:46< zaroth> strangely enough, the same folding@home client running in background of 1.8 doesn't seem to freeze it, it runs smoothly
20110324 11:40:14< zaroth> is wesnoth slowly becoming a resource hog?
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20110324 11:58:02< giacolleto> .help
20110324 11:58:20< CIA-89> ivanovic * r48989 /trunk/ (data/core/about.cfg po/wesnoth-aoi/ja.po): updated Japanese translation
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20110324 12:29:14< fendrin> esr: ping
20110324 12:34:17< esr> fendrin: What's up?
20110324 12:37:45< fendrin> esr: Can I use wmllint to convert a single player campaign into a multiplayer one? That would mean that I need to replace [scenario] with [multiplayer] and also convert some of the attributes? So I ask if wmllint does support the "upgrading" of wmltags and attributes through the commandline somwhow? 
20110324 12:38:47< esr> fendrin: *boggle*  No, it doesn't.  I never even dreamed of that possibility.  Now that I have, I'd prefer to forget it as soon as possible, thank you :-)
20110324 12:40:50< fendrin> huh?
20110324 12:41:05< esr> It would be a nightmare.
20110324 12:41:54< esr> Far easier to do that sort of thing with a simple regexp-bashing script that doesn't try to parse.
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20110324 12:42:24< fendrin> esr: Okay, I will go that way. Thank you anyway.
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20110324 14:46:12< zaroth> is there a dev which actively uses kdevelop as his/her IDE for wesnoth?
20110324 14:47:18< fendrin> zaroth: I did for some time in the past.
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20110324 14:49:42< zaroth> fendrin: maybe you then know why jumping to declaration/definition (in class browser) works for some wesnoth functions/variables, and for some simply does nothing
20110324 14:50:44< zaroth> it seems like a bug of kdevelop to me, but I wanted to ask first (there's no kdevelop4 manual/handbook that I know of)
20110324 14:51:17< zaroth> (I asked in #kdevelop , but got no useful response)
20110324 14:53:21< fendrin> zaroth: Currently I use the eclipse IDE and it behaves the same. But I don't know if it fails for the same declaration/definition pairs.
20110324 14:54:25< fendrin> I guess it depends on the class in question is "#include"ed or forward declared like "class foo;".
20110324 14:54:59< zaroth> well, I'm currently just inspecting one class, multiplayer::create
20110324 14:55:30< fendrin> zaroth: Can you give me an example of a failing pair?
20110324 14:55:36< fendrin> please
20110324 14:55:45< zaroth> and it fails to jump to declarations of e.g. cancel_game_, num_turns()
20110324 14:56:11< fendrin> zaroth: Give me a second to compare and investigate.
20110324 14:56:12< zaroth> but works for e.g. ~create(), hide_children()
20110324 14:56:48< zaroth> so there are no included classes in question here
20110324 14:57:56< fendrin> zaroth: num_turns() is declared and defined in the header, so there is no pair in its case.
20110324 14:58:40< zaroth> well, but for ~create() I have both "show declaration" and "show definition" and both work
20110324 14:58:54< fendrin> This is not true for ~create() which does work here as well.
20110324 14:58:58< zaroth> for num_turns() I correctly have only "show declaration" and it doesn't work
20110324 15:00:11< zaroth> actually it may be the case, that it doesn't work for elements which have only declarations, even though the option is correctly shown
20110324 15:00:32< zaroth> more random picking confirms it
20110324 15:01:26< fendrin> Looks like a general c++ problem. I guess other IDEs will share the behaviour since there is most likely no shared codebase between kdevelop and eclipse.
20110324 15:02:30< zaroth> yeah, it seems that whenever there is a pair of dec/def, the jumping to declaration correctly goes to .hpp file and jumping to definition goes to the .cpp file, but whenever it's only a declaration, it doesn't work
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20110324 15:57:43< timotei> Crab_, fendrin: hi there
20110324 15:58:28< timotei> Crab_, fendrin: I was wondering, if the guy who aims replacing wml into lua will do it, wouldn't the eclipse plugin project be useless ?:-S
20110324 15:58:59< timotei> I'm asking in the way: will be still the eclipse plugin idea still be ok, or it will be already outdated
20110324 15:59:13< Crab_> timotei: if properly written, most of the tools in eclipse plugin should not care about the underlying language format
20110324 15:59:23< Crab_> timotei: so, the eclipse plugin would still be a good thing
20110324 15:59:33< timotei> hmm, good point
20110324 15:59:49< Crab_> i.e. your 'quickstart' wizards for campaigns/scenarios...
20110324 16:00:09< Crab_> the markup semantics won't change much
20110324 16:00:14< Crab_> the syntax might.
20110324 16:00:18< timotei> Crab_: I was going to take the idea one step forward, and let the users/umc authors to upload/define new templates for different files
20110324 16:00:20< timotei> what do you think?
20110324 16:00:33< Crab_> timotei: yes, it is a good idea.
20110324 16:00:45< timotei> it's just a raw idea, I'm gonna extend and detail it as much as I can hopefully this weekend
20110324 16:00:47< Crab_> timotei: especially if you let them upload their templates as a special type of addon
20110324 16:01:02< Crab_> timotei: that way, people would be able to share
20110324 16:02:15< timotei> but first I have to re-write/update that questionairre xD
20110324 16:02:27< Crab_> timotei: and integrating some of the 'lua plugins for eclipse' into the wesnoth eclipse plugin would be a good idea in any case
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20110324 16:05:34< timotei> stupid internet
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20110324 16:18:42< Crendgrim> hey there, guys. I've got a license question.
20110324 16:19:02< Crendgrim> neki asked me to create a logo for his youtube channel. Am I allowed to use Wesnoth graphics for that?
20110324 16:20:33< elias> if the resulting logo is allowed to be used by anyone it's certainly no problem
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20110324 16:21:19< Crendgrim> elias: thanks
20110324 16:21:21< elias> if the logo will have a GPL-incompatible license, it probably is a gray area, but i doubt anyone would care about a youtube channel logo :)
20110324 16:22:16< Crendgrim> elias: you'll never know.. :( 
20110324 16:26:56< vultraz> any new terrain coming out in 1.9.5?
20110324 16:27:13< timotei> vultraz: there were some of new terrains 
20110324 16:27:33< vultraz> like what
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20110324 16:28:00< neki> hello
20110324 16:28:07< timotei> hi neki 
20110324 16:28:13< timotei> vultraz: take a look in /trunk/changelog
20110324 16:28:26< neki> we have started a 1 vs 1 tournament KOTF - king of the frontier
20110324 16:28:28< timotei> vultraz: or: http://svn.gna.org/viewcvs/wesnoth/trunk/changelog?revision=48986&view=markup
20110324 16:28:31< neki> we would like to make it a link
20110324 16:28:35< neki> kotf.wesnoth.org
20110324 16:28:43< neki> just like for tgt.wesnoth.org
20110324 16:28:53< neki> it's much easier and efficient to advertise it
20110324 16:29:03< zookeeper> it already works.
20110324 16:29:07< neki> could you direct me to someone that can help me with that please ?
20110324 16:29:37< zookeeper> neki, ^
20110324 16:29:44< neki> wow
20110324 16:29:50< neki> thank you, zookeeper!
20110324 16:29:56< zookeeper> soliton did it, not me
20110324 16:30:29< Crendgrim> you're too slow, neki :p
20110324 16:31:00< neki> thank you, Soliton, for your prompt reply :) now I will just shut up not to spam the channel
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20110324 16:38:16< Soliton> neki: you're welcome. i also put a note into the motd. "King of the Frontier tournament - http://KOTF.wesnoth.org"
20110324 16:38:59< neki> wow, thanks! that's going to help even 4 times more with the advertising!
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20110324 16:39:27< Seiyria___> .
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20110324 17:01:47< Aethaeryn> Oh. *NOW* I see what's going on in game_events.cpp
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20110324 17:29:43< Aethaeryn> Now I know why I was so lost yesterday.
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20110324 17:30:17< CIA-89> torangan * r48990 /trunk/data/hardwired/fonts.cfg: complete update of DejaVuSans.ttf
20110324 17:31:32< Aethaeryn> Crab_ was telling me the bottom up approach to designing it, while I was thinking top-down.
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20110324 17:32:16< Aethaeryn> wesbot: seen crab_
20110324 17:32:16< wesbot> Aethaeryn: The person with the nick Crab_ last spoke 1h 29m ago.  59m 29s ago they left with the message: Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org
20110324 17:32:27< Aethaeryn> oh, wow, he must have left just before I entered.
20110324 17:32:57< Gambit> [11:32:47] <-- Crab_ (~Crab@wesnoth/developer/crab) has quit (Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org)
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20110324 17:33:00< timotei> yeahxD
20110324 17:33:04< Aethaeryn> ROFL
20110324 17:33:30< Aethaeryn> Anyway, no crying cats or human beings to interrupt my focus on the code.
20110324 17:33:41< Aethaeryn> And for some reason sleeping on it I now understand what I'm supposed to be doing. :-P
20110324 17:33:45< Aethaeryn> Whoops
20110324 17:33:50< Aethaeryn> "No human beings or crying cats"
20110324 17:34:03< Aethaeryn> The other way of phrasing it implies the human beings are crying for food too... Nope.
20110324 17:35:14< Aethaeryn> Anyway, probably because I'm better in Lua than C++, the way of approaching this that I see is definitely top-down, first doing the Lua implementation of gui_message, and then fixing the internals to have it work.
20110324 17:35:32< Aethaeryn> brb
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20110324 17:59:26-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: 1.9.5 planned for the next weekend | Google Summer of Code: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SummerOfCodeIdeas |189 bugs, 304 feature requests, 20 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
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20110324 18:26:12< Nephro> What's the politics of the scenario writers: do they always make the scenarios "winnable" not depending on previous scenarios, or a player must always come with a well developed team? I've been playing one scenario, which is told to be novice level and I failed multiple times, because the enemy forces are very overpowered, and I mean very...
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20110324 19:05:11< Crab_> hi, Aethaeryn
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20110324 19:15:52< Aethaeryn> Crab_: I figured out why I was so lost now that I have a clear mind and no cats/RL bothering me.
20110324 19:16:06< Aethaeryn> Crab_: You were telling me the bottom-up implementation while for some reason my head keeps thinking top-down approach to this problem.
20110324 19:16:36< Aethaeryn> I have it in pseudocode right now, I'm going to translate by looking up the C-Lua API in my Programming in Lua book after I finish my Wesnoth game from yesterday.
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20110324 19:25:20< Soliton> Nephro: at least on the easiest difficulty the scenario should be winnable no matter how you did before.
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20110324 19:27:01< Nephro> Soliton, well, the scenario has two opponents, one of which summons 2nd level fighters and holds 50% of the villages, the other one has massive advantages in position and helds the other 50% of the villages and I am very constrained by the move count
20110324 19:27:11< Sytyi> wesbot: seen mordante
20110324 19:27:12< wesbot> Sytyi: The person with the nick mordante last spoke 1d 21h ago.  1d 21h ago was here and on the channel #wesnoth-de with the message: Quit: Leaving
20110324 19:27:42< Nephro> the terrain is such that I must follow the road, but the 2nd enemy constantly summons more fighters and surrounds me, because his fighters move through the mountains very fast
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20110324 19:29:04< Nephro> and I must also say that I had a pretty developed team, with 4 champions, 1 royal guard and manier 2nd level swordsmen
20110324 19:29:28< Soliton> post a replay/savegame.
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20110324 19:30:24< Crab_> Aethaeryn:ok, good
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20110324 19:30:59< Nephro> Soliton, I just wanted to find out the politics of them designers :) The campaign was played at the hardest level
20110324 19:31:00< Sytyi> Can WML tag-name contain uppercase letters or no? And what about other symbols expect "-" and "_" 
20110324 19:32:20< Crab_> Aethaeryn: I was talking about some top-down things vaguely, before )
20110324 19:32:55< Aethaeryn> Crab_: that's how I managed to connect the dots and realize what you were saying ;-)
20110324 19:33:40< Aethaeryn> Crab_: http://pastebin.com/0ynCqaBc
20110324 19:33:43< Aethaeryn> Is this better?
20110324 19:33:43< Nephro> mega-offtop: does wesnoth community organize any live meetups? :)
20110324 19:33:57< Aethaeryn> I realized that there's some stuff in the WML not implemented in your mockup
20110324 19:33:59< Crab_> Nephro: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/Fosdem2011
20110324 19:34:45< Soliton> Nephro: well, what campaign/scenario are you talking about anyway?
20110324 19:34:48< Crab_> Aethaeryn: yes, you're right
20110324 19:34:56< Nephro> Soliton, the south guard
20110324 19:35:13 * Nephro awayz
20110324 19:35:20< Crab_> Nephro: TSG is quite easy, overall...
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20110324 19:36:08< Soliton> yeah, can't guess what scenario that might be.
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20110324 19:37:00< Crab_> Aethaeryn: will this approach achieve your goals for the lua-enabled message tag?
20110324 19:37:18< Aethaeryn> Possibly.
20110324 19:37:22< Aethaeryn> I'll find out when I implement it
20110324 19:37:31< Crab_> Aethaeryn: :)
20110324 19:40:28< Crab_> Aethaeryn: any questions so far ? you can try to make a patch with the first part of the implementation at any time :)
20110324 19:41:24< CBAZ_> Hi, I'm a prospective GSoC student and the website said it would be a good idea to introduce myself, so here I am. Seems like a happy place with all these smiley faces flying around :)
20110324 19:43:17< Crab_> CBAZ_: hello :)
20110324 19:43:58< CBAZ_> I'm interested in working with the AI.  Should I download LUA and the source code and start getting my hands dirty?
20110324 19:44:20< Crab_> yes, getting a source checkout from svn compiling wesnoth is probably the first step )
20110324 19:44:26< CBAZ_> Or do you already have a ton of people going for that?
20110324 19:44:31< CBAZ_> Okay, I'll do that.
20110324 19:45:01< Crab_> CBAZ_: well, judging from last year, there will be more students than projects, this is ok.
20110324 19:45:44< Crab_> CBAZ_: but, it doesn't matter much, as it is possible (and it has happened) that 2 students were selected to work on the same idea (but in different focus areas)
20110324 19:46:11< CBAZ_> Crab_: Okay, neat.  I won't worry too much about that then.
20110324 19:46:17< Crab_> CBAZ_: have you played wesnoth before ?
20110324 19:47:04< Aethaeryn> hmm, brb coffee
20110324 19:47:20< Aethaeryn> I should have a patch either tonight or tomorrow morning, but no guaruntees.
20110324 19:47:27< Aethaeryn> there's a *ton* of preexisting code 
20110324 19:47:59< Aethaeryn> This isn't like *my* projects, which are rather small by comparrison (even the large ones) and where I know every single line of code.
20110324 19:48:27< timotei> Crab_: hmm... the 2 students, was that in 2009 ? When you were selected? I remember something like 2 students working on AI stuff, right?
20110324 19:48:28< CBAZ_> Crab_: A bit.  I downloaded it yesterday, but I tend to pick up strategy games pretty quickly.
20110324 19:49:07< CBAZ_> Anyway, I have a dentists appointment, so I'll start downloading and get back to it afterwards.
20110324 19:49:34< Aethaeryn> Crab_: can we please split up scripting/lua.cpp into a few files though? Even splitting it into two logical halves would make the code easier to understand. There's a lot going on in that one file...
20110324 19:49:48< Aethaeryn> e.g. split off the part that actually implements the wesnoth Lua library from the other stuff
20110324 19:49:59< Crab_> Aethaeryn: yes, that would be a good thing. patches welcome
20110324 19:50:09< zookeeper> Nephro, on easy, scenarios should be winnable pretty much regardless of how you got there. on normal it's probably doable in theory but you really should try to get gold and units, and on hard all bets are off and you're likely screwed if you mess up badly.
20110324 19:50:37< Crab_> Aethaeryn: but if you want to go for it, do it quick, because some other students might want to do it, too :)
20110324 19:50:48< Crab_> CBAZ_: ok. you should play at least a little, to find out what the gameplay concepts are. then use the lua ai test scenario to see the current state of lua ai support
20110324 19:51:06< Crab_> CBAZ_: then, there'll be plenty of opportunities for tasks
20110324 19:51:35< Crab_> timotei: AI/2008, AI/2009 (me an DK)
20110324 19:51:52< timotei> Crab_: oh. ok
20110324 19:52:01< Crab_> timotei: and, even now, you see that there are talks about different lua-related projects )
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20110324 19:52:16< CBAZ_> Crab_: I did complete the tutorial and the first two missions of Heir. If I played too much more I might just never get to actually coding :)
20110324 19:52:33< Crab_> CBAZ_: :) that's good, too
20110324 19:53:31< Crab_> Sytyi: I suggest studying the source of wesnoth's preprocessor. only 3k lines in src/serialization and you'll see how it does things.
20110324 19:53:52< Sytyi> Crab_: Thank you
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20110324 19:54:39< Crab_> Sytyi: in particular, tokenizer.cpp holds the info about tokens, i.e. a..zA..Z_ are treated as alphanumeral
20110324 19:56:32< Crab_> Sytyi: and, in parser.cpp, in parser::operator(),  case '[': tells about the rules for parsing [tags]
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20110324 19:58:04< Crab_> Sytyi: please note that, once, the author of the preprocessor has said that its code is not that good )
20110324 19:58:20< Sytyi> Crab_: :)
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20110324 20:07:50< Crab_> timotei: can you link your version of msvc libs again ?
20110324 20:07:58< Crab_> (ie paste a link here)
20110324 20:08:21< Aethaeryn> Crab_: the one thing I don't ned to implement in [filter], right?
20110324 20:08:32< timotei> Crab_: http://sourceforge.net/projects/wesnoth/files/unofficial/Windows%20Compile%20Stuff/
20110324 20:08:37< Aethaeryn> Since it'd be better to just cal the message in a Lua function that has a conditional
20110324 20:08:42< Crab_> timotei: thanks
20110324 20:08:47< timotei> Crab_: though they may be outdated. let me check
20110324 20:08:48< timotei> Crab_: yw
20110324 20:08:56< Crab_> Aethaeryn: yes, we will delegate all stuff to lua callbacks
20110324 20:09:43< timotei> Crab_: hmm, I need to reconsider the checking. My include/lib/dll folder have achieved a lot of dependencies xD.
20110324 20:10:13< timotei> Crab_: but anyway, if it won't work just let me know
20110324 20:12:29< Crab_> ok
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20110324 20:27:00< vjoe> hi
20110324 20:27:15< Crab_> vjoe: hello
20110324 20:27:44< fendrin> hi Crab_, hi vjoe
20110324 20:28:21< vjoe> im cooking atm
20110324 20:28:24< vjoe> i'll be ready soon
20110324 20:28:26< vjoe> :)
20110324 20:28:46< fendrin> vjoe: Don't hurry, take your time if Crab_ is not in a hurry.
20110324 20:29:20< Crab_> not in a hurry
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20110324 20:32:42-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110324 20:33:28< fendrin> hi noy
20110324 20:33:50-!- Seiyria [~Seiyria@72-160-203-94.dyn.centurytel.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110324 20:34:10< noy> hello
20110324 20:34:55< Aethaeryn> hi noy 
20110324 20:35:32< Seiyria> ahoy
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20110324 20:47:10< noy> hello Aethaeryn 
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20110324 21:00:00< fendrin> Seiyria: hi
20110324 21:00:06< CIA-89> crab * r48991 /trunk/ (3 files in 3 dirs): patch #2599 by nephro: lua_ai routine: ai.get_aggression()
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20110324 21:04:12< vjoe> Crab_: and fendrin, im ready when u are
20110324 21:04:52< fendrin> vjoe: Just one more minute.
20110324 21:05:09< fendrin> vjoe, Crab_: Shall we join a new dedicated channel?
20110324 21:05:17< vjoe> fendrin: no worries
20110324 21:05:21< Crab_> fendrin: no, here is ok
20110324 21:05:45< vjoe> i dont really mind
20110324 21:07:01< Crab_> vjoe: do you have any particular questions about the project or about our selection process ?
20110324 21:07:38< vjoe> nop, I still have to familiarize myself with the project (no what to do in general, but the specifics)
20110324 21:07:42< vjoe> i will do it this weekend
20110324 21:07:51< vjoe> i am sure i will enjoy it thoug
20110324 21:08:29< vjoe> nonetheless, i would like to know what you guys have in mind
20110324 21:08:37< vjoe> in terms of the reengineering
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20110324 21:08:56< vjoe> for eg, what is bad at the moment, what needs to be improved, new functionalit
20110324 21:09:00< vjoe> I have read the page
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20110324 21:09:08< vjoe> there is such like the difficulty level and etc
20110324 21:09:16< vjoe> but I am sure you guys have additional things in mind
20110324 21:09:28< fendrin> I am currently working on the gsoc proposal page for the multiplayer changes.
20110324 21:09:47< Crab_> vjoe: basically, our current multiplayer mode is the extension of our singleplayer mode, with some hacks added in to sync games by transmiting replays over the network
20110324 21:10:01< vjoe> yep
20110324 21:10:18< fendrin> One of the problems of Wesnoth's codebase is the fact that we have those two code pathes for single/multiplayer.
20110324 21:10:19< [Relic]> Hello :)
20110324 21:10:29< vjoe> hey
20110324 21:10:30< fendrin> It is mentioned as a long term goal to get rid of the fact.
20110324 21:10:51< vjoe> fendrin: what do you mean? are single and multiplayer treated seperately?
20110324 21:10:53< Crab_> vjoe: our lobby and game creation screens are very basic. lobby is hard to change (in fact, there was an entire gsoc devoted to MP lobby and the results were not good. so , we're forgetting about the lobby for now)
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20110324 21:11:01< fendrin> Yes.
20110324 21:11:06< vjoe> Crab_: yep, i remember when i used to play
20110324 21:11:12< vjoe> I haven played since last summer
20110324 21:11:19< vjoe> so i dont know if there are some changes
20110324 21:11:22< vjoe> will check it out this wkd
20110324 21:11:37< Crab_> vjoe: but, our game creation screen can be improved, especially because now we have new types of multiplayer content such as 'MP campaigns'
20110324 21:12:08< Crab_> vjoe: when creating a new MP campaign, an obvious way to do it is to grab an old SP campaign and make it MP.
20110324 21:12:15< vjoe> yep
20110324 21:12:17< fendrin> I stop talking until Crab_ is finished with his thoughts.
20110324 21:12:23< vjoe> sure
20110324 21:12:24< Crab_> fendrin: thanks
20110324 21:12:32< vjoe> Crab_: basically it's all about making it as modular as possible
20110324 21:12:46< vjoe> i think it would be good to solve the problem that fendrin mentioned
20110324 21:12:50< Crab_> vjoe: but, this raises questions that the old design is not ready to answer
20110324 21:13:04< Crab_> vjoe: such as the mentioned difficulty level problem
20110324 21:13:06< vjoe> it doesnt make sense to have single and mp mode being in seperate streams
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20110324 21:13:49< vjoe> yes
20110324 21:14:09< Crab_> so, what we want to do is : prepare an architecture which will cover both SP and MP needs, and which will allow dynamic pre-scenario setup. i.e. "you start playing you campaign as SP, then join the mp server, continue with next scenario (changing settings,sides, difficulty levels, scenario-specific flags), ... "
20110324 21:14:33< vjoe> hm, so "move" a sp campaign to mp?
20110324 21:14:34< noy> wesbot: seen boucman?
20110324 21:14:34< wesbot> noy: The person with the nick boucman last spoke 23h 7m ago.  21h 3m ago they left with the message: Quit: Leaving.
20110324 21:14:52< Crab_> vjoe: yes, later, this would allow us to move SP to be MP
20110324 21:15:00< vjoe> i dont see how that would be a problem, this is from a conceptual point of view
20110324 21:15:13< vjoe> in practice things will need more thought
20110324 21:15:14< Crab_> for that, we'll also need to improve our GUI for scenario setup commands  (changing settings,sides, difficulty levels, scenario-specific flags, on scenario start and/or in game)
20110324 21:15:36< Crab_> i.e., so instead of using :droid 2, the player would do some mouse-clicking.
20110324 21:15:36< vjoe> yep
20110324 21:15:43< vjoe> yup
20110324 21:15:59< vjoe> Crab_: does this task involve some UI design then?
20110324 21:16:28< Crab_> vjoe: yes, but mainly we want an engine and some rough prototypes 'hey, we can use our new cool architecture to do things like this'
20110324 21:16:37< vjoe> yeah
20110324 21:16:43< vjoe> so you want a strong foundation
20110324 21:16:47< Crab_> yes.
20110324 21:16:48< Crab_> exactly
20110324 21:16:51< vjoe> that will allow you to extend functionality
20110324 21:16:56< vjoe> i think that sounds great and a fantastic challenge
20110324 21:17:03< Crab_> yeah ) basically, that is all from me. note http://wiki.wesnoth.org/Fosdem2011#Multiplayer_.28campaign.29_UI - some random thoughts from Fosdem2011 meeting. 
20110324 21:17:40< vjoe> oh, there you are!
20110324 21:17:41< vjoe> eheh
20110324 21:18:05< Crab_> vjoe: for extra fun, allow the new engine to be used to participate in global multiplayer campaigns (where many people play at different regions which influence the state of the 'game world')
20110324 21:18:08< vjoe> ideally we could even have modular UI
20110324 21:18:14< vjoe> as in, easy to plug in another UI
20110324 21:18:22< vjoe> i'm a bit OCD with modular architectures :P
20110324 21:18:33< Crab_> vjoe: yes, i.e. allow the scenario to specify the UI it wants for the setup screen.
20110324 21:18:39< vjoe> Crab_: like in huge terns?
20110324 21:18:45< vjoe> turns
20110324 21:19:02< Crab_> vjoe: no, each map is small, but the victory/defeat affects a 'global' state
20110324 21:19:08< vjoe> right
20110324 21:19:14< vjoe> but that global state needs to be saved somewhere
20110324 21:19:19< vjoe> u do already have that?
20110324 21:19:23< vjoe> i mean, the infrastructure
20110324 21:19:25< vjoe> not the code
20110324 21:19:31< vjoe> do u
20110324 21:20:01< Crab_> no, but we have some stuff from 2010: a network library which can be used to connect to wesnoth MP and speak wesnoth MP protocol in high-level terms, and a framework for MP sync of variables in wesnoth.
20110324 21:20:15< vjoe> hm
20110324 21:20:30< vjoe> so but will be global state be stored client side?
20110324 21:20:32< Crab_> the new engine should need to allow writing that 'global' thing possible in the future (maybe it'll be the topic for new gsoc somewhen :) )
20110324 21:20:37< vjoe> we need to be careful with the syncing then
20110324 21:20:48< Crab_> vjoe: I was thinking about a separate 'gamemaster' instance, like a coordinator
20110324 21:20:58< vjoe> which will run constantly
20110324 21:21:11< Crab_> yes, by sitting around on wesnoth's mp server and spawning games on demand
20110324 21:21:24< vjoe> yeah
20110324 21:21:26< vjoe> sounds good
20110324 21:21:30< Crab_> basically 'spawn-observe-note results' routine
20110324 21:21:48< vjoe> yup
20110324 21:21:54< Crab_> but we want our MP engine to be cool enough to support that stuff.
20110324 21:21:57< vjoe> Crab_: we can even have that idle player in everygame
20110324 21:22:02< vjoe> we might think of new things
20110324 21:22:04< vjoe> to add
20110324 21:22:10< vjoe> its just a different player class
20110324 21:22:21< Crab_> yes, 'we might think of new things' is a essential point there.
20110324 21:22:24< vjoe> yup
20110324 21:22:25-!- Sytyi [~chatzilla@48-57-112-92.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20110324 21:22:28< Crab_> the amount of fun we can do with current system is limited
20110324 21:22:49< vjoe> i totally agree with the "planing for the future" mentality
20110324 21:22:50< Crab_> (not in the DwarfFortress meaning of 'fun', that is)
20110324 21:23:06< vjoe> i'm a bit spontaneous in everything in life, except oding
20110324 21:23:08< vjoe> coding
20110324 21:23:10< vjoe> i have to admit
20110324 21:23:10< vjoe> :D
20110324 21:23:24< Crab_> fendrin: I'll let you continue to tell more about the sides of the project that I've missed or not highlighted enough.
20110324 21:24:52< Crab_> (and, about the required skills: there'll be *lots* of fun c++ code to read and write)
20110324 21:25:12-!- Sytyi [~chatzilla@48-57-112-92.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110324 21:25:38< vjoe> yeah Crab_ i was telling fendrin yesterday, I dont really have much c++ experience, but that is why I want to do something in c++ for the GSoC
20110324 21:25:44< vjoe> it was the same when I started my internship
20110324 21:25:47< vjoe> i asked to do perl
20110324 21:25:52< vjoe> cause i knew nothing about it
20110324 21:25:59< vjoe> i have strong skills in c and java though
20110324 21:26:06< vjoe> so I am fine with pointers and oop
20110324 21:26:16< vjoe> i'm a fast learner :D
20110324 21:27:30< fendrin> The "const" keyword is my biggest problem when comparing c to c++.
20110324 21:28:01< shadowmaster> const also exists in C
20110324 21:28:10< vjoe> yar
20110324 21:28:11< fendrin> My bad.
20110324 21:28:30< fendrin> Never used it in c.
20110324 21:28:54< shadowmaster> ever called printf()? you are passing a const char * argument in the first position ;)
20110324 21:29:12< fendrin> Okay, I will continue to talk about unifying multi and single player code paths.
20110324 21:29:32< vjoe> cool
20110324 21:30:05< fendrin> This task was marked as "long term" because it was considered very hard to archive.
20110324 21:30:52< fendrin> But my experiences with converting "The Legend of Wesmere" in both a single and a multiplayer campaign may suggest that this is not actually true.
20110324 21:31:13< vjoe> fendrin: I'm a "glass half full" kind of guy
20110324 21:31:18< vjoe> nothing is too hard :D
20110324 21:31:39< vjoe> nevertheless, hard is good, I mean, it's a 3 month project, I want to have something to do
20110324 21:31:48< vjoe> this is literally my job for the summer
20110324 21:31:50< vjoe> :)
20110324 21:32:03< fendrin> Fine, the world needs more people with that attitude these days.
20110324 21:32:50< fendrin> In fact I would start with unifying the paths and do the rest with a clean codebase/solution later.
20110324 21:34:09< vjoe> well fendrin, if the idea is to unify both sp and mp, we need to literally start from scratch
20110324 21:34:16< vjoe> it's a whole new architecture, right?
20110324 21:34:26< fendrin> If you replace every [scenario] with a [multiplayer] tag of a campaign and modify the include hierarchy so that the scenarios are going to be processed when entering the multiplayer lobby you can basicaly play a singleplayer campaign on the server or via a local multiplayer game.
20110324 21:34:36< fendrin> Sorry for the long sentence.
20110324 21:34:38< vjoe> np
20110324 21:34:47< vjoe> yeah
20110324 21:34:49< vjoe> i get it
20110324 21:34:53< vjoe> as modular as possible
20110324 21:35:02< vjoe> with all the "content" being provided externally
20110324 21:35:06< vjoe> absolutely 
20110324 21:35:08-!- eoc is now known as the_gammler
20110324 21:35:14< vjoe> 1 sec, brb, need to get something from downstairs
20110324 21:35:28< fendrin> Wait, I don't get what you mean right now :-)
20110324 21:36:01-!- the_gammler is now known as eoc|afraid
20110324 21:36:15< fendrin> eoc|afraid: Why are you afraid?
20110324 21:36:32-!- eoc|afraid is now known as eoc
20110324 21:36:35< eoc> :)
20110324 21:36:45< vjoe> back
20110324 21:37:18< vjoe> fendrin: arent the campaigns modules?
20110324 21:37:23< vjoe> as in, external to the engine
20110324 21:37:40< fendrin> Well, they are all coded in WML which is not part of the engine. 
20110324 21:37:41< vjoe> i just meant that a single engine should be able to process/interpret different kinds of campaigns
20110324 21:37:54< vjoe> but doesnt the engine parse the markup lang?
20110324 21:38:26< fendrin> Right, the engine preprocesses, parses and processes the WML.
20110324 21:38:33< vjoe> yeah
20110324 21:38:37< fendrin> Basically Wesnoth is just a WML processor.
20110324 21:38:43< vjoe> yeah exactly
20110324 21:39:02< vjoe> i was just reiterating that the same engine should parse all the possible WML
20110324 21:39:14< vjoe> either mp or sp
20110324 21:39:28< fendrin> You can call a campaign a module since each is guarded with its own preprocessor symbol meaning that you only parse the campaign the moment it gets selected.
20110324 21:40:14< vjoe> yeah
20110324 21:40:16< fendrin> The fact that this is not true for the multiplayer content is the core of the gsoc project.
20110324 21:40:24< vjoe> yep
20110324 21:40:50< vjoe> that's what Crab was telling me, that the goal is to take down that barrier between sp and mp
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20110324 21:41:19< fendrin> Yepp, that is another view to the problem, equaly valid.
20110324 21:41:22< Crab_> vjoe: note that wesnoth as a 'wml engine, is stateful - at each moment of time, it has preprocessed certain things in a certain way and cached the results.
20110324 21:42:32< vjoe> yeah
20110324 21:42:48< vjoe> that is good though, it makes the engine as light and micro as possible
20110324 21:42:52< vjoe> caching is good :D
20110324 21:43:10< fendrin> Crab_ is telling that Wesnoth is going to repreprocess and parse the wml tree with different defined preprocessor symbols during runtime.
20110324 21:43:16< fendrin> Right?
20110324 21:43:54< Crab_> fendrin: yes, it's basically the same thing as you were telling about the campaign 'guards', but from a different PoV
20110324 21:44:02< fendrin> :-)
20110324 21:45:25< fendrin> Assume you modify the single player campaign setup dialogs to call for a local multiplayer game when finished instead of the current procedure you can have a working prototype that no longer needs the single player code in a days work.
20110324 21:45:56< fendrin> You just need to shortcut the game creation dialog of a multiplayer setup.
20110324 21:46:46< vjoe> yea
20110324 21:47:31< fendrin> From that base the rest of the project might be easier.
20110324 21:47:50-!- _jay [~jay@cpe-67-240-147-107.rochester.res.rr.com] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110324 21:48:19< fendrin> Crab_: Do you agree?
20110324 21:48:35< vjoe> the hard bit will be the architecture, bc we can reutilize most of the code and there will be no need to redo the super complex algorithms and stuff like that
20110324 21:49:01< vjoe> I am pretty confident about it :D
20110324 21:49:13< fendrin> It is an exciting project :-)
20110324 21:51:06< Sytyi> wesbot: seen mordante
20110324 21:51:07< wesbot> Sytyi: The person with the nick mordante last spoke 1d 23h ago.  1d 23h ago was here and on the channel #wesnoth-de with the message: Quit: Leaving
20110324 21:52:34< CIA-89> iwontbecreative * r48992 /trunk/ (4 files in 3 dirs): More whitespace removal
20110324 21:52:42< Crab_> fendrin: I think that the first step is to learn how the whole thing really works now
20110324 21:52:48< fendrin> Sure
20110324 21:52:52< vjoe> yeah
20110324 21:52:58< vjoe> im taking the weekend off for that
20110324 21:53:02< vjoe> no partying this weekend :P
20110324 21:53:19< Crab_> fendrin: only after that we'll be able to formulate a plan on how to go. this will, most likely, require some 'rewrite top level from scratch but avoid touching the low-level code which works' stuff
20110324 21:53:53< Crab_> fendrin: in particular, we want, at least on paper, to know what to do to allow modularity of campaigns/addons/mp content to work in a generic way.
20110324 21:54:51< fendrin> My proposal would be to keep the current mechanism of how the singleplayer campaigns work and generalize it.
20110324 21:55:29< Crab_> fendrin: the problem is, we have no high-level code which encapsulates the current mechanism
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20110324 21:55:47< Crab_> fendrin: and the implementation details are quite tricky
20110324 21:56:02< fendrin> Which ones in particular?
20110324 21:57:10< Crab_> play*controller* are messy.
20110324 21:58:40< fendrin> A class "content_loader" from which a "campaign_loader" is derived could encapsulate the preprocessing. 
20110324 21:59:26< Crab_> yes, something could/should encapsulate the control flow through the scenarios (including the required preprocessing trickery)
20110324 22:00:00< CIA-89> iwontbecreative * r48993 /trunk/data/tools/README: Update the README: Fix a typo, change terrain2wiki extension (we now use python instead of ruby).
20110324 22:00:23< Crab_> and, for extra fun, we need to do it (1) without breaking wesnoth (2) without branching (3) without having 'dead code' complaints.
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20110324 22:01:03< zaroth> can't the local branches from git-svn be used?
20110324 22:01:11-!- negusnyul [~negusnyul@dsl91EC8AB2.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
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20110324 22:01:36< fendrin> Well, I am really confident that the getting rid of singleplayer code can be archived quite easy in a first step being independently of the rest and hold all three rules.
20110324 22:01:45< fendrin> I have spend some time investigating the issue.
20110324 22:02:30< Crab_> zaroth: we can use them for short time, but, merging can be quite fun. also, we want the student's changes to be seen
20110324 22:02:47< Crab_> most likely, mentor would have to work together with the student  in the initial phase
20110324 22:03:36< fendrin> I could give it a try.
20110324 22:03:43< vjoe> btw I am still here, just preparing my wiki page
20110324 22:03:52< vjoe> I want it to be impeccably good
20110324 22:03:52< vjoe> :P
20110324 22:04:17-!- ancestral [~ancestral@166.137.10.77] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110324 22:04:21< Crab_> fendrin: will your way of getting rid of singleplayer work if somebody jumps on and says 'hey , we shouldn't require wesnothd for SP'  ?
20110324 22:04:29< Crab_> if yes, definitely go for it
20110324 22:04:49< fendrin> Crab_: Yes, a local hotseat game does not start a local wesnothd.
20110324 22:04:56< Crab_> great
20110324 22:05:27< CIA-89> anonymissimus * r48994 /trunk/src/ (scripting/lua.cpp unit.hpp): max_attacks field (read only atm) for lua proxy units
20110324 22:07:30< fendrin> vjoe: Are with me doing the try?
20110324 22:07:47< vjoe> ?
20110324 22:07:57< vjoe> pardon?
20110324 22:09:50< fendrin> vjoe: Starting a local multiplayer hotseat game instead of the single player code when starting a campaign.
20110324 22:10:02< vjoe> sure
20110324 22:10:14< fendrin> vjoe: I guess after that experiment we will have learned enough about how those things are handled.
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20110324 22:10:35< fendrin> vjoe: Do you want to start now?
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20110324 22:11:07< fendrin> vjoe: I have ~2 hours time left.
20110324 22:11:50< vjoe> hm, I dont really have all the needed stuff set up
20110324 22:11:59< vjoe> I am not sure I am getting you, but you are asking me to amend the code
20110324 22:12:00< vjoe> right?
20110324 22:12:47< fendrin> vjoe: We will start scouting the code, so you only need a editor or just a viewer for the moment. c++ syntax highliting won't hurt.
20110324 22:12:59< vjoe> ok,
20110324 22:13:05< vjoe> let me quick download the source
20110324 22:13:10< fendrin> emacs, kedit, even notepad++ should be fine.
20110324 22:13:23< fendrin> vjoe: get a svn checkout from trunk for that.
20110324 22:13:31< vjoe> i will use vim
20110324 22:13:32< vjoe> :P
20110324 22:13:52< vjoe> oh ok
20110324 22:13:54< fendrin> good choice
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20110324 22:14:05< vjoe> i havent used svn in a while (we use perforce at work)
20110324 22:14:11< vjoe> what are the details of the repo?
20110324 22:14:30< fendrin> vjoe: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/WesnothSVN
20110324 22:14:41< fendrin> svn co http://svn.gna.org/svn/wesnoth/trunk wesnoth
20110324 22:14:49< vjoe> yeah
20110324 22:14:51< vjoe> 1 min
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20110324 22:15:11< zaroth> fendrin: Crab_: could you have a look at my project page and tell me whether is there something more you'd like to see?
20110324 22:15:15< fendrin> You may choise for only fetching the src subdirectory for start.
20110324 22:15:32< zaroth> unlike the previous gsoc idea, I don't really know what to put on the project page this time ;-)
20110324 22:15:44< vjoe> no worries, it's downloading quickly
20110324 22:15:54< zaroth> http://wiki.wesnoth.org/Zaroth_Multiplayer_Improvements
20110324 22:15:58-!- boucman [~rosen@wesnoth/developer/boucman] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110324 22:16:17< Crab_> zaroth: ok
20110324 22:16:41< fendrin> zaroth: you may want to join vjoe and me with the scouting.
20110324 22:16:53< zaroth> sure, why not
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20110324 22:17:49< boucman> hey all
20110324 22:17:54< Crab_> hi, boucman
20110324 22:17:57< fendrin> hi boucman
20110324 22:18:24< shadowmaster> hi boucman 
20110324 22:24:29< fendrin> Okay, let's start.
20110324 22:24:51< vjoe> sure
20110324 22:24:57< vjoe> i am still getting the data dir
20110324 22:25:01< vjoe> but I think i have the relevant stuff
20110324 22:25:04< fendrin> zaroth: Ready?
20110324 22:25:59< zaroth> fendrin: sure
20110324 22:26:01< fendrin> We can jump into the code by tracking the usage of the gui dialog class that displays the campaign selection dialog.
20110324 22:26:52< boucman> zaroth: it's quite late but the project you pointed doesn't seem very active, i'll inquire a little, but in the mean time you can always learn the code and commit patches to wesnoth so time isn't lost...
20110324 22:27:37< zaroth> boucman: could you please make a verdict whether your gsoc idea is still valid? I started getting up to speed with another idea, together with fendrin in crab_, in case the previous idea is a lost case
20110324 22:27:59< fendrin> The classes are called campaign_selection and campaign_difficulty. They are located at src/gui/dialogs/campaign*
20110324 22:28:07< vjoe> yeah
20110324 22:28:11< zaroth> boucman: yeah, but it will probably still be better to improve/fix the existing tool, most of the functionality is there
20110324 22:28:53< fendrin> I go for tracking the campaign_difficulty since it is the last gui step before a singleplayer campaign is being started.
20110324 22:29:31< boucman> zaroth: i'll do it tomorow, it's already late here and I have to wake up early tomorow
20110324 22:29:43< boucman> I have time tomorow afternoon, i'll tell you then
20110324 22:30:01< fendrin> That leads us to the only place where it is used, game.cpp line 1156.
20110324 22:30:15< fendrin> game.cpp is at toplevel, in src/
20110324 22:30:19< zaroth> boucman: awww... I'm out for the weekend, I'll be back on tuesday
20110324 22:30:22< anonymissimus> timotei: can you give me some site/tutorial link etc how you got and installed git for svn onwindows ?
20110324 22:30:44< boucman> ok, i'll have a quick look tonight
20110324 22:30:45< timotei> anonymissimus: hold on
20110324 22:30:57< zaroth> but since I won't do any coding then anyway, I guess it's okay for me not to know what idea I'm working on until I come back ;-)
20110324 22:31:06< vjoe> yeah fendrin 
20110324 22:31:09< timotei> anonymissimus: http://code.google.com/p/msysgit/downloads/detail?name=Git-1.7.4-preview20110204.exe&can=2&q=
20110324 22:31:19< timotei> this is the website: http://code.google.com/p/msysgit/
20110324 22:33:07< fendrin> The method around it is called new_campaign, it seems to setup the game_state being ready to play the game. So let's track where new_campaign() is being used.
20110324 22:33:25< anonymissimus> thx
20110324 22:34:36< zaroth> only in game.cpp
20110324 22:34:38< zaroth> in three places
20110324 22:35:06< fendrin> Right, the first one is a call for recursion, I guess there is no need to invest that any further.
20110324 22:35:11< vjoe> yeah
20110324 22:35:18< vjoe> so it is line 1209
20110324 22:35:24< vjoe> that we are looking for
20110324 22:35:39< vjoe> ermm
20110324 22:35:40< vjoe> no
20110324 22:35:42< vjoe> 2344
20110324 22:35:52< fendrin> Which leads us to launch_game(), doesn't it?
20110324 22:36:32< vjoe> oh
20110324 22:36:33< vjoe> yeah
20110324 22:38:18< fendrin> launch game is member of game_controller, being overwritten in the inheriting classes playmp_controller and playsingle_controller.
20110324 22:38:34< fendrin> And here we have the first point where we need to modify code.
20110324 22:38:57< fendrin> We must make sure that we have no longer a playsingle_controller around no matter what happens.
20110324 22:39:02-!- timotei [~timotei@wesnoth/developer/timotei] has quit [Quit: SIGKILL]
20110324 22:39:16< vjoe> yeah
20110324 22:39:26< vjoe> fendrin: even playmp_controller calls it
20110324 22:40:35-!- MeccaGod [~majs@h14n4fls31o279.telia.com] has quit []
20110324 22:42:43< fendrin> Crab_ just made me aware about mp_controller being a inheritant of single_player controller.
20110324 22:42:51< zaroth> well.. yeah, i just wanted to point it out
20110324 22:42:53< fendrin> But that may not be a problem.
20110324 22:42:55< zaroth> why is that?
20110324 22:43:23< zaroth> shouldn't they both inherit play_controller?
20110324 22:43:34< boucman> zaroth: i'm a bit torn, it's not mature enough for what we would need, but it's developed at a point where making it mature enough probably wouldn't be enough for a GSoC, so you can spend a little time testing it, and if you see there are enought features missing go for a proposal. if not, just drop it
20110324 22:44:53< boucman> there are quite a few mendatory things missing (like updating the repository, it also crashes if there are unknown files there) but the hard part, handling commits, is done and quite well
20110324 22:44:54< fendrin> zaroth: Not necessarily. The mp_controller just has some mp related extra features.
20110324 22:45:33< fendrin> In the middle it will most likely lead us to merge playsingle and playmp controller into one class.
20110324 22:46:10< zaroth> my intuition tells me that it should be the other way, since it's singleplayer having some features that mp doesn't (e.g. difficulty), not the other way, but if you say so...
20110324 22:46:40< fendrin> zaroth: The difficulty is just a matter of WML preprocessing.
20110324 22:47:18< vjoe> fendrin: yeah and then depending on the choice, different options are taken
20110324 22:47:32< fendrin> It is not hardcoded in c++ at all beside the dialog that let's the user choice the level.
20110324 22:47:37< fendrin> level of difficulty.
20110324 22:48:06< Crab_> zaroth: MP has difficulty as well.
20110324 22:48:18< zaroth> it's just not used?
20110324 22:48:20< Crab_> zaroth: but, difficulty is implemented in WML as a serie of preprocessor statements
20110324 22:48:46< Crab_> zaroth: preprocessor works by taking some WML with #define's and making some postprocessed WML out of it
20110324 22:49:22< Crab_> zaroth: basically, we take 'difficulty + rawWML' => preprocessor => 'processed WML for difficulty'
20110324 22:49:32< Crab_> zaroth: for MP, this is done before you connect to server
20110324 22:49:45< fendrin> making tea, will be back in a few minutes.
20110324 22:49:50< Crab_> zaroth: so, basically, for MP, the difficulty is set before you connect to server
20110324 22:50:48< vjoe> Crab_: and doesnt allow any further changes
20110324 22:50:51< vjoe> right?
20110324 22:51:02< Crab_> vjoe: yes
20110324 22:51:26< vjoe> Crab_: it shouldnt be hard to add some dynamic to it, it would be just like any other game option
20110324 22:52:05< zaroth> how is it currently passed between scenarios?
20110324 22:52:37< Crab_> vjoe: note how it is done for SP: there is code in place to do it twice, once to 'load the minimum amount of info required to draw the campaign selection screen' and once more after the difficulty is selected (so the correct version gets loaded the 2nd time)
20110324 22:53:10< Crab_> vjoe: open up a start-of-scenario save, they are just archives with WML in it
20110324 22:53:16< Crab_> (open in text editor)
20110324 22:53:26< vjoe> ok
20110324 22:53:34< Crab_> start-of-scenario save is the autosave for the scenario start
20110324 22:53:41< Crab_> it's smaller than usual saves
20110324 22:53:48< Crab_> basically, it's somewhat 'in between' scenarios
20110324 22:53:56< zookeeper> (but note that it's not the same as the turn 1 autosave)
20110324 22:54:51 * zaroth wonders if that could be done by the way: http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=15602
20110324 22:55:42< Crab_> zaroth: this is its own can of worms....
20110324 22:55:43< zaroth> somebody proposed a button in objectives dialog, but I guess it isn't feasible, since this dialog appears after scenario creation
20110324 22:55:48< CIA-89> anonymissimus * r48995 /trunk/src/scripting/lua.cpp: attacks_left attribute for lua proxy units, will become writable (max_attacks stays read-only)
20110324 22:56:28< Crab_> zaroth: basically, currently the difficulty is 'usually' changed through the preprocessor. it is not the only way, but it is easier.
20110324 22:57:04< Crab_> zaroth: without using lua or some WML trickery, it's hard to make conditional things cleanly without using macros. they are like function calls for WML. imagine programming without functions....
20110324 22:57:42< fendrin> Changing the difficult level during a campaign is problematic.
20110324 22:57:52< zaroth> and the preprocessor runs before reading a scenario, I see...
20110324 22:58:00< vjoe> Crab_: does WML have conditional tags?
20110324 22:58:16< fendrin> Just imagine a campaign where you need to find 3 artifacts in scenario3 and get them to use in scenario5 at easy, but 5 on hard.
20110324 22:58:38< fendrin> vjoe: It does, but only for actionWML.
20110324 22:59:05< fendrin> That means basically all event related WML stuff.
20110324 22:59:23< vjoe> yeah
20110324 22:59:26< zaroth> well, as discussed in this thread, it could be disabled by a WML tag campaign author if he does something like that - but if he simply gives more gold to AI and puts more units, he shouldn't do that to allow players flexibility
20110324 22:59:31< vjoe> it just needs a big reestructuring
20110324 22:59:55< zaroth> s/tag campaign/tag by campaign/
20110324 23:00:15< Crab_> vjoe: yes, I guess that if we push in that direction, we can make it possible to remove the difficulty defines.
20110324 23:00:20< vjoe> zaroth: yeah, I think the point is to give authors as much freedom as possible
20110324 23:00:30< vjoe> some people might want to release dynamic difficulty campaigns
20110324 23:00:37< vjoe> some ppl might prefer a stricter approach
20110324 23:00:53< Crab_> vjoe: this is, technically, a solution, too. but it is a solution which reduces expressive means available to authors.
20110324 23:01:17< vjoe> it's like Crab_ said in the beginning, we need to consider possible new situations
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20110324 23:03:34< zaroth> but i guess it's enough derailing (with difficulty changing) for now, fendrin, please go on to your point with the mp_container - how do you see merging of container_single and game_container_mp?
20110324 23:05:33< fendrin> The merge can be done as a second step after the single player campaigns are already using the mp setup.
20110324 23:05:42< fendrin> It is just a matter of refactoring.
20110324 23:07:37< vjoe> btw fendrin I am a bit lost in the wiki, how do you create a new page without adding a link to a new page?
20110324 23:08:24< fendrin> vjoe: Our wiki is based on mediawiki, the same application that drives wikipedia.
20110324 23:08:47< Crab_> vjoe: just navigate in the address bar
20110324 23:08:57< Crab_> vjoe: enter the address of the page that doesn't exist
20110324 23:09:05< Crab_> then select the option to 'edit the page' 
20110324 23:09:28< Crab_> or use a direct link, like                   http://wiki.wesnoth.org/index.php?title=Foo&action=edit
20110324 23:09:37< Crab_> where Foo is your page title
20110324 23:11:52< vjoe> ahh nice
20110324 23:11:54< vjoe> ok
20110324 23:11:56< vjoe> tanks guys
20110324 23:11:57< vjoe> :)
20110324 23:13:02< zaroth> I just had a look on the LoW hack... so it basically generates three sets of multiplayer scenarios?
20110324 23:13:12< zaroth> on the runtime?
20110324 23:13:35< fendrin> zaroth: Right
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20110324 23:15:40< fendrin> so we have to reach enter_contect_mode in multiplayer.cpp line 430 and do all the necessary steps needed to make it work in order to shortcut the mp create game setup.
20110324 23:17:12< fendrin> we could also use start_local_game() in the same file at 632 if we give an additional arguement for skipping the create game dialog.
20110324 23:17:56< fendrin> wesbot: seen yogihh?
20110324 23:17:56< wesbot> fendrin: The person with the nick YogiHH last spoke 30d 1h ago.  29d 21h ago they left with the message: Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.13/20101203075014]
20110324 23:18:02< fendrin> Oh dear.
20110324 23:18:17< zaroth> is he the network guy? ;-)
20110324 23:18:59< fendrin> YogiHH did some work in the experimental fork that skips the create game dialog for starting predefined setups of multiplayer games. This is part of his work to make the ladder guys happy.
20110324 23:19:54< fendrin> We could base on his work... Since that is exactly what we want to do as well just with a different intention.
20110324 23:20:15< fendrin> zaroth: But yes, he is one of the network guys.
20110324 23:22:13< zaroth> if I do logging to domain "mp"
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20110324 23:22:27< zaroth> will I see the logs while enabling "mp/*" ?
20110324 23:22:29< Crab_> mp/* won't include it
20110324 23:22:45< Crab_> something like --log-debug='mp,mp/*' will
20110324 23:22:48< zaroth> darn, so I'll just do mp/main
20110324 23:22:59< Crab_> yes
20110324 23:28:56< fendrin> zaroth, vjoe: Was the little code review helpful for you?
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20110324 23:31:01< zaroth> fendrin: for me more helpful was the clarification what needs to be done later than the review at the beginning
20110324 23:31:03 * fabi is fendrin
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20110324 23:32:03< zaroth> but overall, yeah, thanks :-)
20110324 23:32:10< vjoe> fendrin: yep
20110324 23:32:16< fabi> zaroth: Yeah, I didn't expect that every aspect of the codeflow will be clear and easy to get on the first glance. It just should be an introduction.
20110324 23:32:22< vjoe> I still need to properly analyse the code, which I will do over the weekend
20110324 23:32:22< CIA-89> anonymissimus * r48996 /trunk/src/scripting/lua.cpp: Made attacks_left field writable. Setting below 0 or above max_attacks will limit to 0 respectively max_attacks.
20110324 23:32:34< fabi> I will try to do the dirty hack and keep you informed how it is going.
20110324 23:32:35< vjoe> week days are a bit rough for me at the moment
20110324 23:32:43< vjoe> I am perling from 8 to 18
20110324 23:32:51< vjoe> eheh
20110324 23:33:02< zaroth> vjoe: you write perl code at work? :-)
20110324 23:33:06< vjoe> yeah
20110324 23:33:16< vjoe> i am an intern at morgan stanley
20110324 23:33:29< vjoe> btw Crab_ and fendrin 
20110324 23:33:35< vjoe> http://wiki.wesnoth.org/Vjoe_Multiplayer_Reengineering
20110324 23:33:58< vjoe> fendrin: and Crab_ are u guys around on the weekend
20110324 23:34:06< vjoe> i am probably going to shoot off now, need some zzzz
20110324 23:34:28< fabi> vjoe: Yes, I will be around.
20110324 23:34:51< Crab_> might be from time to time. I'll read the logs and wiki changes from time to time
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20110324 23:35:05-!- fabi is now known as fendrin
20110324 23:35:10< Crab_> you can always leave questions for me in the log (just mention my nickname)
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20110324 23:39:49< anonymissimus> Aethaeryn: i cant edit a section in lua units wml in teh wiki
20110324 23:40:18< anonymissimus> Aethaeryn: found it
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20110324 23:41:53< vjoe> ok
20110324 23:41:56< vjoe> good night guys!
20110324 23:41:56-!- vjoe [~vjoe@57.188.pn.adsl.brightview.com] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal]
20110324 23:42:21< eoc> nite!
20110324 23:55:06-!- Crab_ [~Crab_@wesnoth/developer/crab] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
20110324 23:58:33< zaroth> seen Crab_
20110324 23:59:08< zaroth> wesbot: seen Crab_
20110324 23:59:08< wesbot> zaroth: The person with the nick Crab_ last spoke 23m 58s ago.  4m 2s ago they left with the message: Quit: Leaving.
20110324 23:59:27-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: 1.9.5 planned for the next weekend | Google Summer of Code: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SummerOfCodeIdeas |189 bugs, 304 feature requests, 19 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
--- Log closed Fri Mar 25 00:00:00 2011