--- Log opened Mon Mar 28 00:00:45 2011
--- Day changed Mon Mar 28 2011
20110328 00:00:45< fendrin> Soliton: I know. But it's a branch that will lead to a single patch in the end. So I guess it is acceptable.
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20110328 00:03:08< Soliton> you can do what you want in your branch but that does not change the usefulness.
20110328 00:06:01< CIA-89> mordante * r49042 /trunk/po/CMakeLists.txt: 
20110328 00:06:01< CIA-89> When merging pot files use --previous.
20110328 00:06:01< CIA-89> Untested, Ivanovic please test whether it really works.
20110328 00:06:04< mordante> Ivanovic, are there more programs which do merge^
20110328 00:06:22< mordante> since it doesn't seem to work for manpages and the manual
20110328 00:06:40< mordante> Rhonda, ^^^
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20110328 00:12:27< anonymissimus> as for the [gold] and maybe also the remove and place_shroud tags: I can code that; question is only what is wanted
20110328 00:12:59< anonymissimus> since I'm content dev, but mainly sp, I'd say default=1 is wanted but that's biased
20110328 00:13:16< Gambit> We have no way to do all sides when the number of sides is unknown.
20110328 00:13:16< fendrin> anonymissimus: Can you code a SLF filter enhancement that filters for [item]?
20110328 00:13:42< mordante> Gambit, all
20110328 00:14:07< anonymissimus> default=all is not-so-good; if we already have side=0 to specify all somewhere it's abetter idea
20110328 00:14:26< Gambit> mordante: That seemed cheesier when the regular input is numbers.
20110328 00:15:08< anonymissimus> (for me it doesnt matter much since I did already put the side= attribute everywhere :P)
20110328 00:15:13< mordante> Gambit, it makes the intention clear, having 0 as all feels more hacky to me
20110328 00:15:25< anonymissimus> fendrin: file a feature request
20110328 00:16:27< Gambit> I guess it all comes down to personal preference here, and having it do all sides when you didn't specify a particular one felt best to me at the time.
20110328 00:16:34< fendrin> anonymissimus: Yes
20110328 00:17:14< anonymissimus> but an argument to specify doing [gold] for all sides is of course nice
20110328 00:17:27< Gambit> I'd be willing to do the other four tags that still default side=1 but not for some time.
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20110328 00:28:23< CIA-89> fendrin * r49043 /branches/editor/src/editor/action/ (5 files): Finished the splitt of action_village.
20110328 00:28:39< fendrin> ^Espreon: It compiles now but only with cmake. 
20110328 00:30:37< Espreon> OK.
20110328 00:32:49< mordante> I'm off night
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20110328 00:35:10< anonymissimus> Crab: IIRC set_recruti was nto changed in the default behavior
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20110328 00:35:30< anonymissimus> what i did was allowing comma-separated list - but the default stayed side=1
20110328 00:35:55< anonymissimus> same for allow_recruit and disallow_recruit
20110328 00:38:40< Upth> okay, it looks like persist_manager::end_transaction() is called on victory, defeat, savegame, but not on quit.
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20110328 00:42:52< Gambit> anonymissimus: Again though, that way is unfriendly to MP eras.
20110328 00:46:41< Espreon> fendrin: http://pastebin.com/9JKaVaE8 ... Sigh.
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20110328 00:51:20< CIA-89> fendrin * r49044 /branches/editor/ (21 files in 6 dirs): Fixed many label related errors.
20110328 00:51:21< fendrin> Espreon: ^please try again.
20110328 00:52:30< anonymissimus> Gambit: why dont you make a thread with some poll about this or something
20110328 00:52:45< anonymissimus> that is, what the default should be
20110328 00:53:14< Gambit> That's worthless.
20110328 00:53:20< Gambit> Crab's major complaint is that UMC authors won't see it.
20110328 00:53:35< Gambit> Any UMC authors who could vote in the poll already use the forums and therefor would see the announcement.
20110328 00:53:52< Gambit> And they probably read the documentation too.
20110328 00:54:24< Gambit> The only downside to this new way mentioned so far is that we can't warn people their old stuff is incompatible.
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20110328 00:58:51< Gambit> Speaking of not warning people about their old stuff not working anymore, the terrain macros have been pretty much gutted between 1.8 and 1.9, and wmllint didn't say a word to me :(
20110328 00:59:04< Gambit> Nor was it in the changelog that I saw (didn't look too hard though).
20110328 00:59:50< Gambit> And it's not yet in the 1.9 important syntax changes thread. Though I plan to remedy that once I assess the full extent of it.
20110328 01:05:59< Espreon> fendrin: A filter for the unit creator... would be awesome.
20110328 01:06:58< fendrin> Espreon: Yes, I currently just use the debug create unit dialog. It's already a gui2 one and we don't have support for that in it currently.
20110328 01:07:18< fendrin> Espreon: Please note that you can drag and drop units with the left mouse button.
20110328 01:07:29< Espreon> I see.
20110328 01:07:40< fendrin> Espreon: You can also adjust their facings with the right mouse button. 
20110328 01:07:51< fendrin> It works like drag and drop.
20110328 01:08:02< fendrin> Just right click deletes the unit.
20110328 01:08:10< Espreon> fendrin: Tried to place a unit:
20110328 01:08:24< Espreon> http://pastebin.com/BP3c8msq
20110328 01:09:18< fendrin> Espreon: Thank you. I will have a look at it. Create some sides first and choice one in the middle. That should work.
20110328 01:09:32< Espreon> I already created a side.
20110328 01:10:07< fendrin> Yeah, but there is something one with the index. So you need some more and select one in the middle so that there is room in both directions.
20110328 01:10:09< Espreon> fendrin: OK, it only happens if there's only one.
20110328 01:10:20< fendrin> That should be easy to fix.
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20110328 01:36:12< fendrin> Espreon: Do you like the new features? The village and label features are also working to some degree already.
20110328 01:37:21< Espreon> Eh, I haven't tested it that much.
20110328 01:37:29< Espreon> I probably won't be using most of them.
20110328 01:39:23< fendrin> Sure?
20110328 01:39:30< Espreon> Yeah.
20110328 01:39:39< fendrin> Can you be more verbose?
20110328 01:39:59< Espreon> Look, I like my units in WML... not my maps.
20110328 01:40:16< Espreon> I often make multi-floor scenarios.
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20110328 01:40:57< fendrin> The editor is saving the units in WML. What else should it do?
20110328 01:41:26< Espreon> Oh, really?
20110328 01:41:30< fendrin> Sure.
20110328 01:41:39< Espreon> Well, I just prefer to write things out myself.
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20110328 01:42:11< fendrin> It's more about the placement, not the coding.
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20110328 01:43:34< fendrin> Writing a [village] tag for every village is just pain stressful. And those are not better when writing them out manually.
20110328 01:44:15< Espreon> I see...
20110328 01:45:21< fendrin> The unit feature is not that useful when you code a event driven scenario.
20110328 01:45:35< fendrin> It's more useful for predefined problems like in chess.
20110328 01:46:01< fendrin> But I guess you will like the named_area feature.
20110328 01:46:10< fendrin> And maybe the place [item] feature.
20110328 01:47:42< AI0867> Ivanovic: weren't we going to import the kalifa before 1.9.5?
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20110328 02:11:30< Aethaeryn> AI0867: change of plans
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20110328 02:13:14< Ivanovic> AI0867: they took too long
20110328 02:13:20< Ivanovic> will be in 1.9.6 (probably)
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20110328 02:19:42< AI0867> k
20110328 02:19:50< AI0867> so, who can I poke to speed this up? ;)
20110328 02:21:26< AI0867> 21:40 < grigoryj_> do I understand it correctly that the wikigrabber currently only works for the GUI WML? <-- correct
20110328 02:21:46< AI0867> but that's mainly because only GuiWML is documented that way
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20110328 02:40:47< Upthorn> en
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20110328 02:53:02< CIA-89> fendrin * r49045 /branches/editor/src/ (11 files in 2 dirs): Fixed build systems + more refactoring of editor actions.
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20110328 03:00:07< fendrin> hi Upthorn
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20110328 03:11:54< fendrin> Espreon: Why do I build Wesnoth with cmake from the commandline?
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20110328 03:13:17< Espreon> fendrin: Huh?
20110328 03:13:24< Espreon> How would I know?
20110328 03:13:39< Espreon> How would I know why you do anything?
20110328 03:14:16< fendrin> s/Why/How
20110328 03:14:23< fendrin> sorry
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20110328 03:14:47< Espreon> Ok.
20110328 03:14:49< Espreon> *Oh
20110328 03:14:57< Espreon> fendrin: Well, first, I run cmake -i
20110328 03:15:04< Espreon> fendrin: After that's done, I run make
20110328 03:15:10< fendrin> Thank you.
20110328 03:15:13< Espreon> Since I have four cores, I do make -j 5
20110328 03:15:20< Espreon> No prob.
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20110328 03:27:18< BaronControl>  If someone doesn't mind a newbie question, is the CodeBlocks project file (under wesnoth/projectfiles) supposed to target windows or something? The one using scons seems to detect that I'm compiling for linux, but the one without needs to be told not to look for mingw.
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20110328 03:31:33< AI0867> it's mainly used as a dev-c++ replacement, so that sounds probable
20110328 03:35:19< BaronControl> Aah. Thanks.
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20110328 03:59:44< AI0867> mac users use XCode, and linux users generally don't have any trouble using scons or cmake
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20110328 04:15:21< gsoc_fabien> hi tehre
20110328 04:15:23< gsoc_fabien> there*
20110328 04:15:27< Espreon> Hello.
20110328 04:16:26< tschmitz> Speaking of hello, I'd like to introduce myself as well.
20110328 04:16:32< tschmitz> I'm Tommy.
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20110328 04:16:58< Espreon> I'm Steven.
20110328 04:17:00< tschmitz> I'm interested in joining this project, since it was the only one on the Google Summer of Code list that I recognized
20110328 04:17:27< tschmitz> I was rather taken aback to see Wesnoth again, in fact
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20110328 04:18:31< tschmitz> In any case, I'm trying to figure out what I should do to get involved here
20110328 04:19:25< tschmitz> do I simply ask for SVN write access?
20110328 04:19:39< Espreon> Well, just write two patches.
20110328 04:19:44< Espreon> ... get them accepted, and you're in.
20110328 04:20:02< Espreon> Try fixing a bug or implement something on EasyCoding.
20110328 04:20:43< tschmitz> Cool, are there instructions on submitting such a patch?
20110328 04:20:47< Espreon> Maybe fulfill a simple FR.
20110328 04:20:55< Espreon> Just make a checkout of the repository...
20110328 04:20:58< Espreon> ... do stuff...
20110328 04:21:09< Espreon> ... make a patch with svn diff; submit.
20110328 04:21:18< Espreon> http://gna.org/bugs/?group=wesnoth
20110328 04:21:27< Espreon> http://wiki.wesnoth.org/EasyCoding
20110328 04:21:35< ancestral> http://wiki.wesnoth.org/EasyCoding
20110328 04:21:44< tschmitz> Thanks
20110328 04:21:50< Espreon> No prob.
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20110328 04:22:24< BaronControl> Out of curiousity, on a scale from one to ten, how important is it for potential applicants to have submitted patches before the eighth? :D
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20110328 04:23:06< Espreon> Dunno, but I'd get it done soon if I were you.
20110328 04:23:21< Espreon> Having commit access... is awesome.
20110328 04:23:34< tschmitz> I see
20110328 04:24:27< tschmitz> So I should come back here when I have drafted a project proposal?
20110328 04:24:33< Espreon> Yup.
20110328 04:24:52< tschmitz> OK thanks Steven.
20110328 04:24:56< Espreon> No prob.
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20110328 04:33:29< Espreon> mordante: http://gna.org/bugs/?17477
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20110328 04:35:40< shadowmaster> Espreon: that's truly an informative and helpful bug report
20110328 04:35:52< Espreon> inorite?
20110328 04:36:09< Espreon> It can probably be marked as fix by now, but... who knows?
20110328 04:36:14< Espreon> *fixed
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20110328 04:38:04< shadowmaster> Espreon: I'd mark it as "Need More Info"
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20110328 04:38:09< Espreon> Yeah...
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20110328 04:38:15< Espreon> I guess I'll do that.
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20110328 04:38:31< shadowmaster> There's nothing that can be concluded from a bug report that includes no comments or logs
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20110328 04:43:29< fendrin> Someone around who is firm with cmake?
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20110328 04:52:04< CIA-89> espreon * r49046 /trunk/data/core/help.cfg: Added a description for the 'aged' trait; fixes bug #17071.
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20110328 05:02:19< fendrin> Espreon: thank you
20110328 05:02:34< Espreon> Uh... no prob.
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20110328 05:38:46< Upthorn> okay, I finally got wesnoth running in debug
20110328 05:39:05< Upthorn> and I think I recall now that crab_ and I came to the conclusion that
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20110328 06:53:45< Salade> hi, i just notice one of the page on the wiki has a {{Autogenerated}} tag, e.g. http://wiki.wesnoth.org/GUICanvasWML. anyone knows how does that work? 
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20110328 06:54:08< Salade> previous i was asked if the unit table on my site could be put in the wiki
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20110328 06:54:26< Salade> i wonder how that autogenerated function work
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20110328 06:56:34< Espreon> shadowmaster: Mordante would know about that.
20110328 06:56:41< Espreon> Whoops.
20110328 06:56:45< Espreon> I meant Salade.
20110328 06:57:02< Espreon> Salade: Yeah, mordante would know about that.
20110328 06:58:01< fendrin> Salade: The wiki pages are generated from comments in the c++ code.
20110328 06:58:21< shadowmaster> "border: (default=no) Overlay on the border as well as the playable map area. The mask used must have a border_size equal to the map's border size (i.e. it must be a normal map), otherwise it will be ignored "
20110328 06:58:34< shadowmaster> hmmmmmm
20110328 06:58:40< shadowmaster> this is broken
20110328 06:59:26-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: released 1.9.5, announcing "soon" | Google Summer of Code: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SummerOfCodeIdeas | 188 bugs, 304 feature requests, 20 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
20110328 07:00:19< shadowmaster> mordante: [terrain_mask] is supposed to accept border=yes, in which case the mask data can have a border_size, according to http://wiki.wesnoth.org/TerrainMaskWML
20110328 07:00:38< shadowmaster> but I get "Condition 'border_size_ == 0' failed at src/map.cpp:217 in function 'read'.
20110328 07:00:42< shadowmaster> " instead
20110328 07:01:13< shadowmaster> mordante: do you know who I should contact about this if not you? (although I really think this belongs to you, since you are the terrain system guy)
20110328 07:02:04< shadowmaster> Espreon: do you know why I always hit stupid bugs when developing canmpaigns for Wesnoth?
20110328 07:02:12< Espreon> Sadly, I know not.
20110328 07:02:21< shadowmaster> cam
20110328 07:03:00< shadowmaster> this is so frustrating I kinda want to abandon ship
20110328 07:03:08< shadowmaster> I can't work on a campaign and fix/report engine bugs at the same time
20110328 07:03:08< Espreon> Noooooo...
20110328 07:03:54< shadowmaster> I just wasted minutes creating a terrain mask that a) was not properly saved by the editor, and b) the engine rejects
20110328 07:04:30< shadowmaster> if I knew how I'd do this programmatically introducing random noise instead
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20110328 07:18:37< Espreon> https://gna.org/bugs/?16529 ... and apparently, this is fixed.
20110328 07:19:20< shadowmaster> thankfully, I figured out how to create *another* mask which I fixed by hand in a text editor
20110328 07:20:27< shadowmaster> okay, figuring out how to create another mask isn't that hard. :) I mean I figured out that it is better to fix it by hand
20110328 07:20:41< shadowmaster> also, the Create mask function in the editor is highly counter-intuitive
20110328 07:21:34< shadowmaster> so, if I have map A open and make some modifications to it before saving, and choose to create a mask from that state, the newly created mask will contain the modified hexes in middle of fog... which is good, except that the modified hexes revert to their original state
20110328 07:22:21< shadowmaster> which means that I should use some kind of placeholder terrain to generate the mask instead of the final terrains the mask will contain, to avoid losing work
20110328 07:22:51< shadowmaster> and
20110328 07:22:54< shadowmaster> !seen ilor
20110328 07:23:00< shadowmaster> er
20110328 07:23:02< shadowmaster> shikadibot: seen ilor
20110328 07:23:02< shikadibot> shadowmaster: Sorry, I don't know of ilor.
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20110328 07:23:08< shadowmaster> wesbot: seen ilor
20110328 07:23:08< wesbot> shadowmaster: Sorry, I don't know of ilor.
20110328 07:23:18 * shadowmaster scratches head
20110328 07:23:21< shadowmaster> wesbot: seen ilor_
20110328 07:23:22< wesbot> shadowmaster: Sorry, I don't know of ilor_.
20110328 07:23:42< shadowmaster> ... and ilor has been missing for half a year or more
20110328 07:24:15< fendrin> shadowmaster: I am currently working on the editor. If you want a bug fixed create a report and assign it to me please.
20110328 07:24:21< Espreon> https://gna.org/bugs/?12810
20110328 07:24:24 * Espreon chuckles
20110328 07:24:29< Espreon> LOL, no.
20110328 07:24:45< Espreon> Well... maybe...
20110328 07:24:57< shadowmaster> fendrin: as soon as I figure out what the *actual* bug is
20110328 07:25:12< shadowmaster> it seems like the apply/create mask functions are more of an afterthought than anything
20110328 07:25:31< fendrin> shadowmaster: I requested them from ilor. They work but are not optimal.
20110328 07:25:50< shadowmaster> ohhh
20110328 07:25:57< fendrin> And right, they are a quick hack.
20110328 07:26:31< fendrin> Coded long after ilor finished the gsoc.
20110328 07:26:44< fendrin> But on his defense, the editor framework is quite good.
--- Log opened Mon Mar 28 07:39:07 2011
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20110328 07:39:24-!- Topic for #wesnoth-dev: released 1.9.5, announcing "soon" | Google Summer of Code: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SummerOfCodeIdeas | 188 bugs, 304 feature requests, 20 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
20110328 07:39:24-!- Topic set by wesbot [~wesbot@wesnoth/bot/wesbot] [Mon Mar 28 06:59:26 2011]
20110328 07:39:24[Users #wesnoth-dev]
20110328 07:39:24[ ABCD           ] [ eleazzaar      ] [ isaac    ] [ Salade        ] 
20110328 07:39:24[ AI0867         ] [ elias          ] [ Ivanovic ] [ shadowm_laptop] 
20110328 07:39:24[ apoi           ] [ eoc            ] [ iwaim_   ] [ shadowmaster  ] 
20110328 07:39:24[ beetlenaut     ] [ erl            ] [ iwaim__  ] [ shikadibot    ] 
20110328 07:39:24[ Blueblaze      ] [ Espreon        ] [ knotwork_] [ shuvro        ] 
20110328 07:39:24[ CharlieM       ] [ esr            ] [ koan     ] [ Sirp          ] 
20110328 07:39:24[ chris|         ] [ ettin_         ] [ lobby    ] [ Smar          ] 
20110328 07:39:24[ CIA-89         ] [ fendrin        ] [ LordNasty] [ Tigge         ] 
20110328 07:39:24[ clanehin       ] [ fstltna        ] [ Max20010 ] [ tschmitz      ] 
20110328 07:39:24[ Crab_          ] [ GeorgeSebastian] [ mcsmash  ] [ Upthorn       ] 
20110328 07:39:24[ crimson_penguin] [ Greywhind      ] [ nagbot   ] [ vcap          ] 
20110328 07:39:24[ dayoung        ] [ gsoc_fabien    ] [ noy      ] [ Vorpal        ] 
20110328 07:39:24[ dayoung_       ] [ happygrue      ] [ Octalot  ] [ wesbot        ] 
20110328 07:39:24[ dayoung__      ] [ Ingmar         ] [ Rhonda   ] [ yann          ] 
20110328 07:39:24-!- Irssi: #wesnoth-dev: Total of 56 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 56 normal]
20110328 07:39:35-!- Channel #wesnoth-dev created Tue Jan 27 06:28:41 2009
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20110328 07:40:02< shadowmaster> There, the server is back up.
20110328 07:40:51-!- Irssi: Join to #wesnoth-dev was synced in 102 secs
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20110328 07:41:31< beetlenaut> Now that's service!
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20110328 07:59:39< shadowmaster> Salade: fun fact: Most spambots use all-lowercase signatures in combination with redundant links with various keywords and minimal/absent punctuation intended as search engine bait. Your previous signature confused me multiple times until I looked at your username in your posts.
20110328 08:00:11< shadowmaster> good to see that solved now :D
20110328 08:00:52< Salade> so i look like a spammer. :-)
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20110328 08:07:13< Soliton> Salade: the unit table would not go in the wiki, it'd go to units.wesnoth.org.
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20110328 08:07:52< Salade> np
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20110328 08:09:16< fendrin> Soliton: Hi, do you know who the maintainer of the cmake build system is?
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20110328 08:09:44< Soliton> mordant, i think.
20110328 08:09:50< Soliton> mordante*
20110328 08:10:00< fendrin> Soliton: Thanks.
20110328 08:10:41< Soliton> no problem.
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20110328 09:25:15< fendrin> wesbot: show r41114
20110328 09:25:22< fendrin> wesbot: r41114
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20110328 09:31:33< shadowmaster> shikadibot: log 41114 @ fendrin 
20110328 09:31:33< shikadibot> fendrin: Revision 41114 (ilor) on Tue Feb  9 01:26:13 2010:
20110328 09:31:34< shikadibot> fendrin: move src/lobby_data.?pp to src/gui/dialogs/lobby/ and split lobby_info to a separate c/hpp
20110328 09:31:37< shikadibot> fendrin: Web interface URL: http://svn.gna.org/viewcvs/wesnoth?view=rev&rev=41114
20110328 09:31:55< shadowmaster> shikadibot: okay girl, I don't believe you just did that.
20110328 09:32:01< fendrin> shadowmaster: thanks
20110328 09:32:31< shadowmaster> shikadibot: you don't have any sort of log caching. You couldn't have gotten that under 0.25 seconds.
20110328 09:33:04< shadowmaster> connecting to gna.org and running the SVN transaction is supposed to take half a second at the very minimum, and that's assuming an ISP-upstream-class connection
20110328 09:33:52< fendrin> Hmmm, I broke cmake but only for eclipse.
20110328 09:33:58< fendrin> It's a miracle.
20110328 09:34:02< shadowmaster> note to self: figure out how to make irssi log activity in the milliseconds range
20110328 09:35:51< CIA-89> espreon * r49047 /trunk/ (10 files in 3 dirs): Moved images that are only used by the C++ help code out of core; takes care of something that should have been dealt with a long time ago.
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20110328 10:19:37< CIA-89> fendrin * r49048 /branches/editor/src/ (8 files in 4 dirs): Moved mouse_action in its own subdir.
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20110328 10:22:53< Espreon> fendrin: Uh, yeah... about the new drake entries... Why don't you just make an encyclopedia section for races, just move all the non-unit entries, make the drake's race description a gist and just link to the section in the encyclopedia?
20110328 10:23:09< Espreon> The way it's currently being handled is just cluttering things up.
20110328 10:23:46< fendrin> Espreon: It was zookeeper's wish to be handled like it is. It made me some extra coding work...
20110328 10:24:02< Espreon> Ugh...
20110328 10:24:06< fendrin> So I wouldn't have done it.
20110328 10:24:14< fendrin> Without his advice.
20110328 10:24:24< Espreon> It's clutter...
20110328 10:24:28< fendrin> Not that I think that the topics are totaly out of place.
20110328 10:24:39< Espreon> Make a subsection, then.
20110328 10:24:44< Espreon> It's all CLUTTER...
20110328 10:25:20< fendrin> What is a gist?
20110328 10:25:46< fendrin> I see.
20110328 10:25:46< Espreon> You know, just the basic, all you need to know to understand whatever stuff.
20110328 10:26:08< fendrin> Well, I had done it exactly like you describe.
20110328 10:26:28< fendrin> We can talk to zookeeper about it.
20110328 10:26:28< Espreon> And why did you abandon it?
20110328 10:26:33< Espreon> I see.
20110328 10:26:57< Espreon> Since I won't be able to be around later today, just let him know that I think the way it's currently being done sucks.
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20110328 10:31:49< fendrin> hi Ivanovic
20110328 10:32:05< fendrin> Ivanovic: I have a little cmake problem. Maybe you are able to help me.
20110328 10:32:49< Ivanovic> moin
20110328 10:32:56< fendrin> moin moin
20110328 10:33:08< Ivanovic> fendrin: no idea, depends on the problem
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20110328 11:00:13< zookeeper> fendrin, uh, why is the in-game help->units->drakes category littered with the drake encyclopedia stuff?
20110328 11:01:09< zookeeper> was that what espreon was complaining about?
20110328 11:01:11< fendrin> zookeeper: Maybe I misunderstood you but I thought you told me to place it there. Or it was another developer.
20110328 11:01:18< fendrin> zookeeper: right
20110328 11:02:23< zookeeper> i'm pretty sure i've never taken drugs strong enough to make me ask for it to be done like that
20110328 11:02:31< fendrin> :-)
20110328 11:02:52< fendrin> Okay, not a big deal. I am not in favor for it being there myself.
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20110328 12:14:50< CIA-89> ivanovic * r49049 /trunk/ (4 files in 3 dirs): updated Galician translation
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20110328 13:21:14< Sytyi> Crab_: hi
20110328 13:21:39< Crab_> hi
20110328 13:22:56< Sytyi> Crab_: can you make a look through my proposal. Maybe some advice how to develop it, or how to show the idea better?
20110328 13:23:16< Sytyi> I ll be back in 10 min
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20110328 13:23:35< Crab_> ok
20110328 13:23:56< Crab_> nagbot: Sytyi ?
20110328 13:23:57< nagbot> sytyi : http://wiki.wesnoth.org//User:Sytyi : not submitted to google
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20110328 13:56:12< BfWEthnographer> Hi everyone! I'm doing a research project on end-users participation in Free Software development and I study the BfW project as specific case
20110328 13:56:35< BfWEthnographer> I'm currently looking for volunteers to interview
20110328 13:57:14< BfWEthnographer> if anyone wants to help, please read here http://pastebin.com/DR7YmFqW  :)
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20110328 13:58:26< BfWEthnographer> I'm thinking to start with the interviews next week.
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20110328 14:01:54< AI0867> is that the same stuff you mailed last week?
20110328 14:02:20< Crab_> Sytyi: ok, I've looked over your page
20110328 14:02:25< AI0867> looks similar enough
20110328 14:05:06< BfWEthnographer> yes it is the same
20110328 14:05:29< BfWEthnographer> I'm just trying to recruit through different channels
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20110328 14:08:48< Crab_> Sytyi: the main issues at the moment are: (1) talk with mordante about getting to coding, since we need to see how you write working prototype code. (2) please include a Definition of Done (i.e. separate your project into milestones and note things that should be done before each timeline)   (3) add examples of how your tool will be used and what the error messages might be.
20110328 14:09:46< Sytyi> Crab_: Thanks a lot
20110328 14:09:56< Crab_> Sytyi: and, note that in [tag][subtag][/subtag][/tag], the subtag might be 0-1 or 0-M - does your schema format handle that ?
20110328 14:10:10< Crab_> or it might be 1-M , as well
20110328 14:10:16< Crab_> or it might be 'exactly 1'
20110328 14:10:51< Crab_> there's no such issue for attributes
20110328 14:11:19< Sytyi> Crab_: You mean number of possible subtags and number of mandatory subtags in main tag& 
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20110328 14:11:24< Crab_> yes
20110328 14:11:38< Crab_> you handle it for attributes, but tags have this issue, too
20110328 14:12:27< Crab_> and, apart from mandatory/nonmandatory, there's a maximum number restriction  as well.
20110328 14:13:03< Crab_> i.e. [ai][stage][/stage]..[stage][/stage][/ai] can have any number of [stage] subtags (0..M)
20110328 14:13:05< Sytyi> Crab_: There is a list of all available subtags, so i need only to mark mabdatory subtags
20110328 14:13:37< Crab_> but, say,  [goal][value][/value][/goal] can only have 0 or 1 [value] tag
20110328 14:13:56< Crab_> and [goal][value][/value][value][/value][/goal] is a violation
20110328 14:14:14< Crab_> but [ai][stage][/stage][stage][/stage][/ai] is not.
20110328 14:14:53< Crab_> also note that some things don't exist in preprocessed WML
20110328 14:15:49< Sytyi> Crab_: For example, what things properly? 
20110328 14:16:20< Crab_> statements like #ifdef, macros, etc
20110328 14:17:22< Crab_> also your ebnf has some little bugs, i.e. 'MacroDefine = DEFINE, Name, MacroVar {, MacroVar} , StmntList, "ENDDEF"; ' line
20110328 14:17:26< Crab_> note the "ENDDEF"
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20110328 14:21:29< Sytyi> Crab_: I divided grammar into two patrs, preprocessed and unpreprocessed. And I don't understand what the bug exactly. But I think this is not so important now. It will be important while writing parser for WML files
20110328 14:23:07< Crab_> ok
20110328 14:23:19< Crab_> do you understand the issue with 0..1 and 0..M subtags ?
20110328 14:24:09< Crab_> also, I think that you don't need to write a parser for WML files - we already have such a parser (c++ preprocessor&parser), you only need to modify it to suit your needs.
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20110328 14:25:15< Sytyi> Crab_: Yes. I understand. Now I think whatto do best - two parameters - max and min values, or is mandatory and can be repeatable. 
20110328 14:25:24< Sytyi> Crab_: For the preporcessor - great.
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20110328 14:31:54< Crab_> max and min look more scalable to me
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20110328 14:35:10< AI0867> Sytyi: how do you handle tags with the same name and tags that show up in different places?
20110328 14:40:37 * Nephro noticed that he's already spent 3 hours on the questionnaire and it's only half done
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20110328 15:01:23< Nephro> Crab_, good day. Are you busy now? I need some help with my proposal, especially the timeline. You certainly know the amounts of work better than I do, so I could really use the advice
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20110328 15:14:53< Sytyi> AI0867: yes. The main idea is that each tag contains list of possible tags and keys. So in each tag - his siblings  
20110328 15:15:36< Crab_> Nephro: hello
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20110328 15:58:52< AI0867> Sytyi: "yes" is not an answer to "how" ;P
20110328 15:59:30< AI0867> my main concern is that say, both [event] and [command] can contain the same [gold] tag, but in ThemeWML, there is a different [gold] tag
20110328 15:59:36< AI0867> how do you handle this?
20110328 16:00:11< Soliton> i think he meant you specify the tag again each time.
20110328 16:00:24< Sytyi> AI0867: The toplevel tag containts list of allowed tags. So tags with different meanings but one-named are in different lists
20110328 16:01:45< Sytyi> AI0867: i.e Both event and command and theme contains gold in their siblings, but list of allowed key in tag gold is different. Sorry for my owful English
20110328 16:08:37< AI0867> the english is understandable, the meaning still eludes me =/
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20110328 16:13:11< Soliton> what don't you understand?
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20110328 16:13:46< AI0867> well, I read the page, but I still don't have a good idea of what the schema itself would look like
20110328 16:13:56< Soliton> if there are two tags with the same name (at different places) in the WML tree they are still different.
20110328 16:14:14< Soliton> oh, i see.
20110328 16:14:24< Soliton> no idea, haven't read the page.
20110328 16:14:53< Soliton> but i guess your concern is sharing specifications for similar tags at different places?
20110328 16:15:02< AI0867> Soliton: true, but what about the dozens of places where the entirety of ActionWML can appear?
20110328 16:15:22< AI0867> unless there's some way of sharing that, it'll result in massive duplication
20110328 16:15:45< Soliton> so ask him how he intends to handle that? :-)
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20110328 16:15:58< AI0867> well, that question was hidden in my earlier question
20110328 16:16:10< AI0867> but perhaps not obviously enough
20110328 16:16:15< Soliton> i know that but... ;-)
20110328 16:16:42< AI0867> Sytyi: ^ how do you intend to deal with identical tags that show up in multiple places?
20110328 16:17:00< AI0867> that is, tags which may or may not have the same name, but do have the same contents?
20110328 16:17:03< grigoryj> AI0867, so there can be tags with different semantics but same name within the same WML document?
20110328 16:17:28< grigoryj> or am I missing something?
20110328 16:17:32< AI0867> yes
20110328 16:17:45< AI0867> I suggest you take a look at data/schema.cfg
20110328 16:18:02< grigoryj> Oh. That doesn't sound good :( 
20110328 16:18:02< AI0867> it's my prototype for the thing
20110328 16:18:34< AI0867> it needs redesign, or just scrapping if either of your projects do it better, but it does deal with some of the issues
20110328 16:18:39< Sytyi> AI0867: Oh, I hadn't see this. Maybe for such a widely used tags I shall include new type.  
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20110328 16:19:02< AI0867> and then there's the tags that are very similar, but differ slightly
20110328 16:19:14< AI0867> I set up some not-very-pretty inheritance system for that
20110328 16:19:58< AI0867> and I got stuck at figuring out a good algorithm for checking those structures later on
20110328 16:20:08< AI0867> mainly because of lack of time though
20110328 16:20:33< grigoryj> By the way, does the preprocessor have some equivalent of the #include directive?
20110328 16:20:46< grigoryj> that might come in handy
20110328 16:21:27< grigoryj> if not, I suggest to implement it
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20110328 16:22:46< Sytyi> AI0867: Then for tags that can be with different meaning in different parent tags they will be included so many times as need, and for tags, that are used widely and without changing meaning, I'll create new types.   
20110328 16:24:36< Sytyi> AI0867: Or instead of new types -  a global list, containing global possible tags, that can be easier to improve later, if needed. 
20110328 16:25:06< Soliton> grigoryj: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/PreprocessorRef
20110328 16:25:37< Soliton> (see {filename} ff)
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20110328 16:28:46< vdaras> Crab_ : hey, I want to report that the distance_between callback for lua is complete. It's a lua function accepting 4 parameters (all integers that define two locations), 3 parameters where one location is supplied in a table format e.g { x = 5, y = 10 } and the other is defined using two integers, 2 parameters where both locations are supplied in a table format. The callback is defined in it's own header file and the only change made to lua.cpp, is
20110328 16:28:46< vdaras>  adding an entry to the function registry and including a header.
20110328 16:29:42< Crab_> it's better to use locations not in table format (for performance reasons)
20110328 16:30:00< Crab_> nevertheless, put a patch to patches.wesnoth.org , I'll check it and commit it if it is ok
20110328 16:30:36< vdaras> is there a lua user data type that defines locations? I must have missed it
20110328 16:31:10< vdaras> If true, I can change the code to support these kinds of datatypes
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20110328 16:34:27< Nephro> Crab_, did you read my question? It looks confusing, you said "hi", but didn't answer anything esle, as if you decided to say hi, without seeing my message :) i mean... argh, this is impossible to explain...
20110328 16:34:44< Nephro> Anyway, doesn't matter a lot :)
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20110328 16:36:59< Crab_> vdaras: no, there's no data type for locations
20110328 16:37:35< vdaras> splendid, so, do you want me to remove the functionality of accepting tables as arguments?
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20110328 16:40:35< Crab_> vdaras: better, yes. btw, how's your function different from helper.distance_between ?
20110328 16:40:51< Crab_> vdaras: it's only the implementation language is different ? or any extra differences ?
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20110328 16:41:16< Crab_> Nephro: yes, I've read your message
20110328 16:41:38< Nephro> oh, that's good then, my internet is playing jokes with me sometimes
20110328 16:41:50< Crab_> Nephro: I think that I was just expecting a follow-up question
20110328 16:42:03< vdaras> Crab_: no, it's only the implementation language
20110328 16:42:28< Crab_> vdaras: ok
20110328 16:43:38< vdaras> I'll fix the code and send you a PM with the changed and new files
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20110328 16:44:35< Crab_> ok
20110328 16:46:01< Nephro> Crab_: that makes sense. Anyway, I divided the whole plan into several groups: 1) Library of low-level Lua functions 2) Library of high-level Lua functions 3) Direct AI improvement 4) Ai team interaction and other fun things. How much time could each of the first three take to complete approx.? It's hard me to say, because I can't comprehend the total amount of components to be exposed
20110328 16:48:14< Crab_> low-level stuff is 4-6 weeks. high-level stuff is easier because you'll be more familiar with the code by then. I guess 2-3 weeks. (3) and (4) heavily depend on what you want to play with.
20110328 16:48:52< Crab_> so, I guess that 'let everything low-level be finished' is a good pessimistic milestone to be reached before midterm evaluation in july.
20110328 16:49:36< Crab_> so, worst-case: low-level things done before july eval, high-level things done before august eval, project successful, no time to play.
20110328 16:50:15< fendrin> Anyone around who also uses eclipse for developing Wesnoth?
20110328 16:50:18< Crab_> best-case would be to finish both low-level things and high-level things before july eval and then get fancy using the month that will be left to spend a lot of time to improve ai
20110328 16:50:40< Nephro> :D Thank you! will you take a glimpse on my proposal(version 1) if I complete it today?
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20110328 16:55:55< Crab_> Nephro: I will be online today late in the evening, and I'll take a look if you ping me in the logs.
20110328 16:56:18< Nephro> roger that
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20110328 17:06:35< Sytyi> fendrin: I'm trying to .
20110328 17:10:44< fendrin> Sytyi: Would you do me a favor and try if my editor branch compiles in your eclipse?
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20110328 17:12:29< Sytyi> fendrin: Sorry, but i'm just trying to compile it in Eclipse. It always breaks, and cannot find existing files. But I can try. Maybe your projectfile will 
20110328 17:12:59< fendrin> Sytyi: How did you arrange your setup?
20110328 17:13:46< fendrin> Please explain your steps. I can talk you through it. The normal trunk branch compiles fine normally.
20110328 17:13:59< fendrin> Sytyi: What operating system are you using?
20110328 17:14:12< Sytyi> fendrin: Windows XP. 
20110328 17:14:16< fendrin> hmmm
20110328 17:14:51< fendrin> Don't you have access to a linux installation?
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20110328 17:16:22< CIA-89> anonymissimus * r49050 /trunk/src/game_end_exceptions.hpp: Reinserted an include which I need to compile there - was indirectly removed by mordante in r49035.
20110328 17:16:57< Sytyi> fendrin: ok. A few minutes, and I'll try from Ubuntu
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20110328 17:20:03< vdaras> Crab: PM sent!
20110328 17:21:17< CIA-89> anonymissimus * r49051 /trunk/projectfiles/ (CodeBlocks/wesnoth.cbp VC9/wesnoth.vcproj): project files update
20110328 17:22:23< Soliton> "Как тут писать сообщения другим игрокам?"  does that ask how to write a PM ingame?
20110328 17:22:46 * Soliton pokes loonycyborg
20110328 17:23:07< loonycyborg> Yes.
20110328 17:24:09< loonycyborg> It means "How does one write messages to other players"
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20110328 17:28:02< Soliton> thanks.
20110328 17:29:09< fendrin> sytyi: hi again
20110328 17:30:39< sytyi> fendrin: hi
20110328 17:31:09< fendrin> shall we begin?
20110328 17:31:48< sytyi> fendrin: wait a minute please. 
20110328 17:31:52< fendrin> no problem
20110328 17:35:07< sytyi> eclipse is crushing with java VM error. I'm not so good in Linux, so I'm trying to manage this.
20110328 17:36:24< fendrin> sytyi: Try "sudo apt-get install sun-java6-jdk".
20110328 17:36:45< sytyi> 5 minutes before
20110328 17:36:54< fendrin> Did it work?
20110328 17:36:58< sytyi> no
20110328 17:37:12< fendrin> It tells you that the package is not available?
20110328 17:37:29< sytyi> I have a working version of eclipse with java.
20110328 17:37:49< sytyi> now i'm tranforming it into c++
20110328 17:37:53< vdaras> If he is using the latest ubuntu version, he must enable sun's sources to see the sun-java6-jdk package :)
20110328 17:38:23< fendrin> vdaras: Yeah.
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20110328 17:40:28< Nephro> Soliton, I was kinda confused when I saw a message in russian here :)
20110328 17:40:43< sytyi> fendrin: lets begin
20110328 17:41:00< fendrin> sytyi: Okay, do you already have a svn checkout from wesnoth's trunk?
20110328 17:41:05< Soliton> Nephro: well, we're international... ;-)
20110328 17:41:17< sytyi> since yesterday no
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20110328 17:41:53< fendrin> sytyi: I guess you already know how to install subversion and fetch trunk?
20110328 17:42:27< sytyi> yes
20110328 17:42:54< fendrin> While that is running let's fetch the prerequisites for compiling.
20110328 17:43:19< fendrin> sudo apt-get build-dep wesnoth
20110328 17:43:42< fendrin> you need the sources be enabled in your apt sources.list in order to do that.
20110328 17:45:17< sytyi> fendrin: OK
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20110328 17:50:33< sytyi> fendrin:  Installing wesnoth 1.8, is it allright?
20110328 17:51:09< fendrin> sytyi: hmmm
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20110328 17:51:35< fendrin> sytyi: You don't need to install wesnoth 1.8 just the build deps. The commandline should do that.
20110328 17:51:50< fendrin> Wesnoth 1.9 does have some more we will install them manually.
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20110328 17:54:17< sytyi> fendrin: done
20110328 17:54:22< fendrin> okay
20110328 17:54:45< fendrin> "sudo apt-get install cmake"
20110328 17:55:35< sytyi> fendrin: done
20110328 17:55:51< fendrin> Is your svn fetch finished?
20110328 17:56:04< sytyi> fendrin: last seconds
20110328 17:57:07< fendrin> switch into the directory
20110328 17:57:14< fendrin> and execute "cmake -i"
20110328 17:57:54< fendrin> That will ask you some questions, you can just confirm them with return for now.
20110328 17:58:09< fendrin> It will certainly tell you about some missing dependencies.
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20110328 18:02:49< sytyi> fendrin: asks about  binary prefix
20110328 18:03:02< sytyi> and boost thread
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20110328 18:06:17< sytyi> fendrin: boost _ thread and boost_system. Where can I find them?
20110328 18:07:21< fendrin> sytyi: Sorry, there was a telephone call.
20110328 18:07:27< epyon> sytyi, http://www.boost.org/ L<
20110328 18:07:30< epyon> :>
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20110328 18:07:43< fendrin> epyon: No!
20110328 18:08:01< epyon> fendrin, you use a fixed version?
20110328 18:08:03< fendrin> sytyi: We fetch them form the ubuntu repository, just a second please.
20110328 18:08:19< fendrin> epyon: Current ubuntu version is working fine for me.
20110328 18:09:08 * epyon likes to compile boost himself, as a form of cruelness against his PC
20110328 18:09:13< fendrin> "sudo apt-get install libboost-thread-dev"
20110328 18:09:48< sytyi> fendrin:  -dev
20110328 18:10:05< sytyi> fendrin: sorry
20110328 18:10:05< fendrin> sytyi: Yes, that will fetch headers as well.
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20110328 18:10:38< epyon> fendrin, out of curiosity, how recent is the version in the repos?
20110328 18:10:50< fendrin> epyon: 1.42
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20110328 18:11:18< fendrin> "sudo apt-get install libboost-system-dev"
20110328 18:11:36< fendrin> After that, retry cmake -i again.
20110328 18:12:45< sytyi> fendrin: Done
20110328 18:13:22< sytyi> fendrin: now make ?
20110328 18:13:30< fendrin> sytyi: execute "make -jx" where x is the number of your cpu cores.
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20110328 18:15:57< fendrin> sytyi: depending on your amount of memory and if your cpu does hyperthreading you can experiment with x. If your cpu does not support hyperthreading x+1 may be a good value, with hyperthreading it maybe 2x+1
20110328 18:17:05< fendrin> sytyi: I guess it is compiling fine. We can work on the eclipse project while it is compiling.
20110328 18:17:43< sytyi> fendrin: lets start) 
20110328 18:17:56< fendrin> assume your wesnoth dir is called "trunk" and it's located in a "wesnoth_develop" directory that is in your home dir.
20110328 18:18:06< fendrin> "cd wesnoth_develop"
20110328 18:18:17< fendrin> "mkdir trunk_build"
20110328 18:18:30< fendrin> "cd trunk_build"
20110328 18:19:12< fendrin> "cmake -G"Eclipse CDT4 - Unix Makefiles" -D CMAKE_BUILD_TYPE=Debug ../trunk"
20110328 18:20:24< fendrin> Now start eclipse and choose "Import..." in the file menu.
20110328 18:21:29< fendrin> General -> Existing Projects into Workspace
20110328 18:21:51< fendrin> Choose the location of the "trunk_build" directory.
20110328 18:22:14< fendrin> Make sure that you check the "copy files into Workspace" switch to on.
20110328 18:22:26< fendrin> We are finished.
20110328 18:24:24< sytyi> fendrin:  I can not choose words to say how much good things i wish to you. Thanks.
20110328 18:25:37< fendrin> sytyi: Well, please repeat the steps with my editor branch...
20110328 18:26:16< fendrin> sytyi: And don't forget to adjust the project settings to use "make -jx" instead of "make" to boost your compile time in eclipse.
20110328 18:27:56< fendrin> sytyi: You can install an svn plugin to eclipse or use svn on the commandline. I use the commandline. That works fine but needs you to "Refresh" the project after a "svn update" or "svn commit"
20110328 18:28:33< sytyi> fendrin:  I see. Where is editor branch?
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20110328 18:29:19< fendrin> http://svn.gna.org/svn/wesnoth/branches/editor/
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20110328 18:59:26-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: released 1.9.5, announcing "soon" | Google Summer of Code: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SummerOfCodeIdeas | 190 bugs, 304 feature requests, 20 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
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20110328 19:04:53< crimson_penguin> Ivanovic: prooooblem - I can compile Wesnoth today, but... it would mean dropping support for <10.6, and PPC (even Jetrel still uses PPC)
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20110328 19:14:07< timotei> crimson_penguin: why dropping support for 10.6?
20110328 19:14:11< timotei> <10.6*
20110328 19:14:45< fendrin> hi deekay
20110328 19:14:48< crimson_penguin> because I upgraded to Xcode 4, and it doesn't include ANY older SDKs or compilers
20110328 19:15:06< crimson_penguin> I didn't realize that when I upgraded, and it would be complicated and take a while to get Xcode 3 again
20110328 19:15:17< timotei> xD
20110328 19:16:17< loonycyborg> afaik apple isn't a fan of backwards compatibility.
20110328 19:16:50< deekay> hi there
20110328 19:16:54< deekay> hey fendrin 
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20110328 19:17:59< crimson_penguin> loonycyborg: I think it's probably because of the Mac App Store; it requires 10.6, and they just really want to push people in that direction... also, it's been 5 years since they switched to intel, and want to push people in that direction
20110328 19:18:06< deekay> crimson_penguin: I had simmilar issue today... when I realized that Xcode 4 set everywhere iOS 4.3 as mandatory...
20110328 19:18:17< eoc> yeah, why support old devices if ppl can buy new ones instead …
20110328 19:18:31< crimson_penguin> it's true, Apple isn't great for backwards, but this is particularly bad
20110328 19:18:58< deekay> Sadly cause of that I had to fix it, repackage application and send it again to customer cause it wouldn't run on iPhone 3G...
20110328 19:19:36< crimson_penguin> normally Xcode will come with the SDK for the previous major OS version by default, and 2 versions ago as an option
20110328 19:20:06< crimson_penguin> deekay: can't you just set the target OS for that?
20110328 19:20:12< deekay> I can.
20110328 19:20:20< crimson_penguin> ok phew
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20110328 19:20:44< deekay> It just overwrote it everywhere to 4.3 - somehow. And I missed that - hence the issue.
20110328 19:21:01< crimson_penguin> ah
20110328 19:21:04< deekay> overwrote while installing - not al the time :)
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20110328 19:21:38< deekay> Xcode sometimes really seems to be made of failure...
20110328 19:22:47< timotei> hmm, out of curiosity fendrin, does the make -jx do an incremental build or it restarts it from start each time?
20110328 19:23:07< timotei> because it's seems visual studio won't allow multiple compilation processes AND incremental build ȘÂ
20110328 19:23:08< timotei> :|
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20110328 19:32:20< timotei> Crab_: hi
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20110328 19:47:52< Soliton> crimson_penguin: so this time you do not have the option for older versions at all?
20110328 19:48:20< crimson_penguin> Soliton: that is correct :-/
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20110328 19:54:24< vjoe> hey
20110328 19:55:00-!- boucman [~rosen@wesnoth/developer/boucman] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110328 19:56:41< timotei> hi vjoe 
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20110328 19:58:45< mordante> servus
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20110328 19:59:20< timotei> hi mordante 
20110328 19:59:38< mordante> hi timotei 
20110328 20:01:53< mordante> Espreon, I see you set a bugreport without content to a need info request without content ;-)
20110328 20:02:14< Soliton> actually there is content: https://mail.gna.org/public/wesnoth-bugs/2011-01/msg00050.html
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20110328 20:02:57< mordante> Soliton, ah thanks, seems another case of gna dropping information
20110328 20:03:18< Soliton> reported in #gna but probably better if someone files a proper bug report with them.
20110328 20:06:01< mordante> Soliton, added it to the issue I reported before https://gna.org/support/?2332
20110328 20:06:14< Soliton> cool, thanks.
20110328 20:06:34< mordante> you're welcome
20110328 20:07:15< boucman> hey all
20110328 20:07:19< timotei> ihi boucman 
20110328 20:07:22< mordante> hi boucman 
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20110328 20:08:02< Ivanovic> crimson_penguin: then 1.9.5 will take a little longer till it is announced
20110328 20:08:05< Ivanovic> no problem on my side
20110328 20:09:16< mordante> Salade, what do you exactly want to know about {{Autogenerated}} how to add it to a page or the functionality behind it?
20110328 20:10:17< Logmorph> hello
20110328 20:10:29< crimson_penguin> Ivanovic: are you suggesting I try to someone get a copy that's backwards-compatible, or just go with the Apple flow?
20110328 20:10:29< mordante> hi Logmorph 
20110328 20:11:14< Logmorph> was reading the GSOC page for wesnot, and I have some questions about the spritesheets implementations
20110328 20:12:23< boucman> Logmorph: yes ?
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20110328 20:12:59< Logmorph> I was wondering...what exactly should the implementation contain?
20110328 20:13:36< Logmorph> just support or a tool to put separate prites into a sheet?
20110328 20:13:52< Logmorph> how exactly do the artists work atm?
20110328 20:14:04< Logmorph> sprites*
20110328 20:14:34< Logmorph> (implementation + tool)
20110328 20:14:35< Ivanovic> crimson_penguin: you are the packager, it is your decission
20110328 20:14:47< Ivanovic> crimson_penguin: personally i am not sure what a sane approach is/would be
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20110328 20:15:33< crimson_penguin> yeah, it's hard to say... it'll takes me probably a couple days to download Xcode 3 again, and then I would have to either install it on a different computer, or have 2 versions installed on my computer, which is really complicated
20110328 20:15:55< crimson_penguin> I hate to drop support for older OSs, but... they've really made it hard not to (especially for me with slow internet)
20110328 20:16:04< zookeeper> Logmorph, just support; the artists would paint and organize the sprites into the spritesheet image themselves
20110328 20:16:59< mordante> shadowmaster, regarding the border ilor added the text in the wiki after I added the border validation
20110328 20:17:29< mordante> shadowmaster, so I don't know whether the VALIDATE can safely be removed, maybe you can try to email ilor
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20110328 20:17:57< Logmorph> zookeeper: ah, ok
20110328 20:18:59< mordante> fendrin, I maintain cmake, but have no idea about your problem, your change looks sane as well
20110328 20:19:17< mordante> (already read the log of the German chan)
20110328 20:20:54< Soliton> crimson_penguin: drop support for older versions for now and wait for the outcry?
20110328 20:20:55< Logmorph> still need to check the code, but I was thinking of creating a small tool to define animations from a spritesheet
20110328 20:21:50< crimson_penguin> Soliton: that's what I was just thinking; there should definitely be a clear warning on the website though, because otherwise probably lots of people will download and THEN find out, which would just suck
20110328 20:24:16< Soliton> crimson_penguin: pfff, you just want to dampen the outcry. :-P
20110328 20:27:08< Ivanovic> outcry?
20110328 20:27:21< Ivanovic> there ain't no outcry if we just disable posting in the boards!
20110328 20:27:22< Ivanovic> ^^
20110328 20:28:55< mordante> sytyi, the schema file for your proposal looks nice
20110328 20:29:08< crimson_penguin> heh
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20110328 20:30:14< mordante> sytyi, something you might not realize, but integer_value = "5" is a valid integer
20110328 20:30:55 * mordante loves Ivanovic's solutions ;-)
20110328 20:32:05< sytyi> mordante:  I'm improving it right now. I talked with Crab_  and AI0867 today. There still is much  to think about, and some things can be done only  during the work.  
20110328 20:32:50< sytyi> mordante:  and "5" is a problem of parser, not the schema )); 
20110328 20:33:26< crimson_penguin> only problem is, there might be an outcry from Jetrel, who I talk to not through the forum :P
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20110328 20:35:01< sytyi> mordante:  I'll write tto you once more, when i finish for today. Cause  sometimes ideas come suddenly, and sometimes they don't
20110328 20:35:29< mordante> sytyi, I know you talked with them ;-) I read the chan log ;-)
20110328 20:36:36< mordante> the "5" can be your problem, if you test whether "5" is an invalid integer and the schema accepts it you might be surprised
20110328 20:36:56< mordante> grigoryj, also for your information in WML "5" is a valid integer value
20110328 20:37:39< mordante> sytyi, ok no problem, I know how it goes with finding solutions, just ping me if you want me to have another look or to discuss further
20110328 20:38:22< grigoryj> mordante, why wouldn't "5" be a valid int value? :-)
20110328 20:39:04< mordante> sytyi, just wanted to let you know that the schema stuff you added is the kind of information I like to see in a proposal
20110328 20:39:26< mordante> grigoryj, while it's quoted and most authors just write 5 instead of "5" in WML
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20110328 20:39:58< grigoryj> Oh, I see
20110328 20:40:06< mordante> the parser should handle it for you, but you might be surprised when testing
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20110328 20:44:12< grigoryj> I'm a bit confused about the gsoc application process... It was said today the student application period should open, but I only see a "register as mentor" link on the gsoc page
20110328 20:44:59-!- mjs-de [~mjs-de@vpw.wh.uni-dortmund.de] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110328 20:45:02< mordante> grigoryj, IIRC it starts at 19:00 UTC
20110328 20:45:38< grigoryj> ok
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20110328 20:48:45< MGoods|RangerM> Hi, I don't suppose anyone here remembers me?
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20110328 20:49:13< AI0867> RangerM sounds like a forum name
20110328 20:49:35< AI0867> I do believe I read posts by you a long time ago
20110328 20:49:38< MGoods|RangerM> Yeah, I made a campaign a while back, till getting into uni, and then uni got in the way
20110328 20:49:50< MGoods|RangerM> did some work with Jetryl too, sprites and stuff
20110328 20:49:54< mordante> yeah I remember playing that campaign
20110328 20:50:05< MGoods|RangerM> you enjoy it?
20110328 20:50:11< mordante> yes
20110328 20:50:21< MGoods|RangerM> Thanks :)
20110328 20:50:34< MGoods|RangerM> Anyway, does anyone know about gsoc?
20110328 20:50:51< mordante> yes 
20110328 20:51:11< mordante> what do you want to know?
20110328 20:51:15< MGoods|RangerM> I'm looking to work on wesnoth for gsoc over the summer
20110328 20:51:21< MGoods|RangerM> I'm a computer science student at uni
20110328 20:51:45< MGoods|RangerM> and I quite enjoyed the community here back when I worked on it
20110328 20:51:52< zookeeper> oh, hey ranger
20110328 20:52:00< MGoods|RangerM> Zookeeper, it's been a while
20110328 20:52:09< MGoods|RangerM> It's good to see u again
20110328 20:52:29< mordante> did you see our GSoC wiki page?
20110328 20:53:08< MGoods|RangerM> yes, but I entirely sure about how to actually apply (I assumed it meant get in contact with developers)
20110328 20:53:42< mordante> the real application needs to be send to Google, registration opens in a few minutes
20110328 20:53:51< mordante> and in the wiki you need to make a proposal
20110328 20:54:08< mordante> do you have an idea what you want to work on?
20110328 20:54:13< MGoods|RangerM> Ah, so I need to have found something to work on?
20110328 20:54:32< MGoods|RangerM> I'm quite interested in AI, but we only had a very general course on it at uni
20110328 20:55:13< mordante> yes, you can work on one of our suggestions or come up with your own idea
20110328 20:55:24< MGoods|RangerM> so although I'm reasonably sure I could work on it, and get somthing done, that could be overconfidence (I've never actually failed to program something before, but AIs are quite complicated, especially good ones)
20110328 20:55:47< MGoods|RangerM> so I figured I'd ask a dev what needed doing
20110328 20:56:09< MGoods|RangerM> like most, or what the devs didn't want to work on themselves if it didn't get done in gsoc
20110328 20:56:12< mordante> Crab_, knows most about the AI task
20110328 20:57:03< MGoods|RangerM> Ok, I'll try to get ahold of him if I see him online, thanks
20110328 20:57:20< mordante> well he is in the chan so might chime in later
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20110328 20:57:45< MGoods|RangerM> yeah, i saw a couple of messages from him earlier, but I got distracted before I introduced myself again and missed him
20110328 20:59:05< MGoods|RangerM> Anyway, thanks for the info, I'll take another look at the wiki page, see if any others catch my interest too (as I said, I find AI interesting, but I don't neccessarily have hte skill set for it yet)
20110328 21:00:07< mordante> just remember we expect students not senior developers, so the AI task should be doable for a student
20110328 21:01:27< MGoods|RangerM> I'll bear that in mind, thanks again
20110328 21:01:45< mordante> you're welcome
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20110328 21:11:01< Nephro> Umm, how do I make my proposal page appear in the idea list?
20110328 21:11:45< grigoryj> There was special markup for it in the students page template
20110328 21:12:01-!- sytyi [~chatzilla@207-40-133-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20110328 21:12:03< grigoryj> something like <h4>Student page</h4> IIRC
20110328 21:14:19< grigoryj> Guys, to apply for GSoC I have to fill a form for submitting a proposal... I should copypaste the information from my wiki page, right?
20110328 21:14:20< timotei> Nephro: did you use the template? 
20110328 21:14:32< Nephro> yeap :)
20110328 21:14:49< Nephro> Copying the headed part from you, timotei, atm, btw :)
20110328 21:14:50< timotei> grigoryj: last year we added a link to the wiki + some other required stuff, like the phone number
20110328 21:14:51< boucman> grigoryj: you mean on the google form ? not needed, a simple link to your wiki page is good enough
20110328 21:15:05< timotei> Nephro: you have to have =Description= 
20110328 21:15:14< timotei> Nephro: :P
20110328 21:15:17< Nephro> I have description
20110328 21:15:21< timotei> Nephro: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/index.php?title=SoC2011_Template_of_Student_page&action=edit&section=2
20110328 21:15:29< Nephro> i think the solution is in the {{blah blah}}
20110328 21:15:30< Nephro> part
20110328 21:15:35< grigoryj> thanks, timotei and boucman
20110328 21:15:38< timotei> oh, yeah too
20110328 21:15:51< timotei> s/yeah too/yeah, that too
20110328 21:16:10< fendrin> helo
20110328 21:16:12< fendrin> hello
20110328 21:16:16< timotei> hi fendrin 
20110328 21:17:09< Nephro> hmm, my page links to the idea page, but doesn't appear in the list 
20110328 21:17:17< grigoryj> all right, proposal officially submitted :-)
20110328 21:17:18< fendrin> timotei: I think make does build a compile tree. And if there are several childs from a node it spawns a process for each.
20110328 21:17:32< fendrin> s/childs/children
20110328 21:17:52< timotei> fendrin: well, yeah. But I was asking whether you rebuild all files
20110328 21:17:52< timotei> or not
20110328 21:17:53< timotei> :)
20110328 21:18:15< fendrin> depends on how much changed.
20110328 21:18:20< timotei> hehe, Crab_ is on google-melange :D
20110328 21:18:30< timotei> http://www.google-melange.com/soc/content/images/v2/gsoc/students-apply-now.jpg
20110328 21:18:39< fendrin> Sometimes if you modify a header that means that a huge amount of wesnoth needs to be rebuild.
20110328 21:19:23< fendrin> if it is only in cpp files the most part of the process is the linking which can't be parallelized.
20110328 21:19:56< timotei> fendrin: is that you near Crab_? I'm sorry if I'm mistaken
20110328 21:20:03< timotei> fendrin: oh, nice.
20110328 21:20:20< fendrin> huh?
20110328 21:20:27< timotei> fendrin: it seems visual studio is stupid enough to not allow parallel building without rebuilding whole files
20110328 21:21:10< fendrin> poor windows users.
20110328 21:21:20< timotei> :P
20110328 21:21:34< timotei> I don't compile wesnoth so often anyways. Otherwise I'd use cmake+mingw :D
20110328 21:21:51< fendrin> timotei: Would you help me reproducing a eclipse compile problem?
20110328 21:22:09< timotei> fendrin: hmm, compiling the branch with eclipse? :)
20110328 21:22:40< fendrin> timotei: Right. It does not work any longer after adding a subdir with files.
20110328 21:22:55< timotei> fendrin: well, hold on to checkout the branch
20110328 21:23:02< fendrin> timotei: Thanks :-)
20110328 21:23:23< timotei> fendrin: http://svn.gna.org/svn/wesnoth/branches/fendrin_editor/ ?
20110328 21:23:32< fendrin> timotei: No
20110328 21:23:34< Nephro> Can I alter my wiki page after I submit an application to google?
20110328 21:23:40< timotei> Nephro: yes.
20110328 21:23:52< fendrin> timotei: Just editor. the fendrin_editor is outdated and will be removed soon.
20110328 21:23:59< Nephro> timotei, is the "homepage" field where I pust the link to the wiki
20110328 21:24:00< Nephro> ?
20110328 21:24:08< timotei> Nephro: actually I think that was the point of putting just the link
20110328 21:24:26< Nephro> sorry, say agian?
20110328 21:24:27< timotei> Nephro: hmm, that's the homepage of your profile. That is your personal webpage
20110328 21:24:43< timotei> the link to the wiki will be added in the proposal, *after* you register as a student :)
20110328 21:24:51< Nephro> Well, now I am confused
20110328 21:25:04< timotei> Nephro: it's a 2 step process:
20110328 21:25:08< timotei> 1) register as a student
20110328 21:25:09< Nephro> Ok, so I leave the homepage and blog fields in the google registration empty for now
20110328 21:25:12< timotei> 2) submit/create proposals
20110328 21:25:21< timotei> Nephro: yes, if you don't have any
20110328 21:25:26< Nephro> Ok, thanks, timotei 
20110328 21:25:40< timotei> yw
20110328 21:26:12< grigoryj> btw, where do you have to specify the number of the building in the shipping address? first line or second?
20110328 21:27:14< Nephro> i just wrote street 2-3
20110328 21:27:23< Nephro> where 2 is the house number and 3 is the flat
20110328 21:27:31< timotei> grigoryj: well, I've written my full address in the street adress 1 >D
20110328 21:28:23 * Nephro hated them "short description" fields
20110328 21:30:08< Nephro> timotei, so I leave the "content" empty and just post the link below?
20110328 21:30:27< timotei> Nephro: IDK yet, I'm just completing the profile
20110328 21:30:39< Nephro> grigoryj, have you done that?
20110328 21:30:44< timotei> fendrin: will take a while while downloading the branch
20110328 21:30:53< grigoryj> Yep, I just pasted the link into the both fields
20110328 21:31:05< grigoryj> and copypasted the short description section
20110328 21:31:13< fendrin> timotei: You could make a copy from trunk and "svn switch" it. That is much faster.
20110328 21:31:17< Nephro> ok, thanks, I still think that they'll allow to correct things if something goes wrong
20110328 21:31:31< fendrin> timotei: Assuming you have a checkout of trunk around.
20110328 21:31:56< timotei> fendrin: I'm using git, but I don't know if it will wipe some files (and I have my built wesnoth in there :P )
20110328 21:32:44< grigoryj> isn't zipcode something USA-specific?
20110328 21:33:02< fendrin> grigoryj: We have zipcodes as well in germany.
20110328 21:33:19< timotei> grigoryj: it's the postal code :)
20110328 21:33:33< fendrin> grigoryj: It's a number that identifies your street so that the goods can be delivered.
20110328 21:34:27< grigoryj> Postal code! I haven't used the snailmail for such a long time I forgot ours  :-)
20110328 21:34:36< Nephro> grigoryj, maybe the word zipcode is, but there are similar systems in different countries, like postcodes in the UK and postal codes in Latvia
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20110328 21:36:31 * grigoryj is gonna hit the sack
20110328 21:36:41< grigoryj> good night everybody!
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20110328 21:44:22 * Nephro kept staring at the logs, trying to find out, who altered his page, for 5 minutes, before remembering that he did that himself
20110328 21:46:50< shadowmaster> mordante: too lazy to email
20110328 21:47:08< shadowmaster> and honestly I'm fed up with this
20110328 21:49:25< Nephro> timotei, do you know how exactly did you get your page in the idea list?
20110328 21:49:43< timotei> Nephro: I just used the student template
20110328 21:49:48< timotei> lemme check yours
20110328 21:49:55< Nephro> http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SummerOfCodeProposal_LuaAI_Improvement_Nephro
20110328 21:49:58< timotei> Nephro: mind givine me a link?
20110328 21:50:01< timotei> thanks
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20110328 21:55:33< Nephro> Looks just as your one imho :)
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20110328 21:55:39< timotei> ok done
20110328 21:55:52< timotei> it seems it was a problem in the DPL :P
20110328 21:55:58< timotei> for that idea
20110328 21:56:09< timotei> Nephro: you might want to add your name before the title :)
20110328 21:56:19< timotei> http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SummerOfCodeIdeas#Extend_Wesnoth.27s_Lua_AI_support_and_improve_Wesnoth.27s_AI
20110328 21:56:26< Nephro> Wow, thanks
20110328 21:56:33< timotei> yw
20110328 21:58:06< timotei> fendrin: ok, generating the cmake ;)
20110328 21:58:24< fendrin> timotei: Wait, please use exactly my commandline.
20110328 21:58:30< timotei> oh. ok
20110328 21:58:31< timotei> :)
20110328 21:58:37< fendrin> to reproduce the situation as close as possible.
20110328 21:58:46< timotei> well, I've seen you use: -D CMAKE_BUILD_TYPE=Debug, shouldn't be -DCMAKE... ?
20110328 21:58:51< fendrin> "cmake -G"Eclipse CDT4 - Unix Makefiles" -D CMAKE_BUILD_TYPE=Debug ../editor"
20110328 21:59:13< timotei> umm...
20110328 21:59:21< timotei> this being in /editor/build
20110328 21:59:23< timotei> is that ok
20110328 21:59:23< timotei> ?
20110328 21:59:24< fendrin> The line is fine, it works perfectly for trunk
20110328 21:59:50< timotei> I have the /editor/src, /editor/data, etc
20110328 21:59:57< timotei> and /editor/build
20110328 22:00:28< timotei> yes, I think it's just .. from the build directory, right fendrin ?
20110328 22:02:08< timotei> in the meantime, what's the error?
20110328 22:02:25< timotei> (eclipse is downloading)
20110328 22:04:39-!- Johannes13 [~Johannes@unaffiliated/johannes13] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
20110328 22:04:57< fendrin> timotei: 
20110328 22:04:58< fendrin> Description	Resource	Path	Location	Type
20110328 22:05:00< fendrin> make[2]: *** No rule to make target `src/libwesnoth-core.a', needed by `wesnothd'.	Project-Debug@editor_build		 	C/C++ Problem
20110328 22:06:11< fendrin> timotei: No, you need to make a dir, let's call it editor_build parallel to the whole wesnoth directory.
20110328 22:06:36< fendrin> switch into the "editor_trunk" and then execute the line.
20110328 22:07:25< timotei> well, that line won't work :)
20110328 22:07:31< timotei> oh. ok
20110328 22:07:33< timotei> it will
20110328 22:09:52< timotei> fendrin: ok, installing jdk ;)
20110328 22:12:04< timotei> zookeeper: hi!
20110328 22:12:17< timotei> zookeeper: can you tell me, the variables are just file (scenario) scoped?
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20110328 22:16:08< Crab_> MGoods|RangerM: hello. you wanted to know something about the LuaAI task ?
20110328 22:16:55-!- MeccaGod [~majs@h14n4fls31o279.telia.com] has quit []
20110328 22:17:00< timotei> fendrin: wow, it surely takes a bit to load the project...
20110328 22:17:10< timotei> or maybe that is just because I use a VM
20110328 22:17:11< Crab_> Nephro: is the wiki page ready to look at it ?
20110328 22:17:20< timotei> I really wish I had a SSD xD
20110328 22:18:14< Ivanovic> i wish there were some cheap and good >=3TB usb3.0 drives
20110328 22:18:31< timotei> :)
20110328 22:19:02< fendrin> timotei: indexing takes long, even from my SSD and importing the project triggers the compile but only on one core..
20110328 22:20:20< Ivanovic> usb2.0 2tb drives start at just 70€, so for 50% more size some 110€ as usb3 version would be fair, right?
20110328 22:20:22< Ivanovic> ;)
20110328 22:21:30-!- negusnyul [~negusnyul@145.236.87.207] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20110328 22:21:49< Logmorph> yes, cause everyone has usb3:))
20110328 22:22:09< Ivanovic> Logmorph: you can also use those drives with usb2 systems
20110328 22:22:21< shadowmaster> I have not seen any USB 3 certified machine or peripheral here
20110328 22:22:39< Logmorph> Ivanovic: yes, but you don't get the speed boost
20110328 22:22:57< timotei> fendrin: and using Build project, right?
20110328 22:23:30< Ivanovic> Logmorph: honestly, having 90MB/s instead of 30MB/s would be great already when copying over 1.5TB files
20110328 22:23:41< Ivanovic> Logmorph: so there is a significant boost
20110328 22:24:25< Logmorph> Ivanovic: true, but it's not the full 3.0 thing :)
20110328 22:24:35< fendrin> timotei: hmmm, what do you mean?
20110328 22:24:47< Ivanovic> it is, just the harddrive is too slow to make full use of the bandwidth
20110328 22:25:21< Logmorph> Ivanovic: then what are the 4 extra wires in the port for?
20110328 22:25:25< Ivanovic> Logmorph: just because the spec allows "even more" than what is possible with the current hardware does not mean that you doN't have a speed boost
20110328 22:25:59< timotei> fendrin: how do you compile the prof?
20110328 22:26:02< Logmorph> Ivanovic: true
20110328 22:26:04< timotei> project*
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20110328 22:26:16< fendrin> timotei: strg+b
20110328 22:26:22< timotei> ok
20110328 22:26:23< fendrin> timotei: ctrl+b
20110328 22:26:30< fendrin> strg is german :-)
20110328 22:26:33< timotei> yes
20110328 22:26:40< mordante> shadowmaster, why fed up?
20110328 22:26:44< timotei> that's what I've done too
20110328 22:28:08< shadowmaster> mordante: I think I already explained that part last night
20110328 22:29:52< timotei> fendrin: 49% and still no error
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20110328 22:30:26< timotei> fendrin: I have to go now, I'llr esume this tomorrow. but I think the problem must be with your cmake
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20110328 22:30:40< MGoods|RangerM> ah, sorry I didn't notice immediately Crab_, my sound is muted on my laptop and I'm filling in the questionaire. The last time I played Wesnoth while paying enough attention to notice AI behaviour and tendancies was about three to four years ago, has much changed since then in the AI department?
20110328 22:30:41< fendrin> timotei: it's at the end
20110328 22:30:58< mordante> shadowmaster, only that you seem to run into bugs
20110328 22:31:28< Crab_> MGoods|RangerM: not much on the surface. the codebase is organized differently, lots of old bugs fixed, some new bugs introduced. new ai will win against old ai most of the time, still.
20110328 22:32:32< Crab_> Nephro: ok, I've read your wiki page. I liked it. What I would be most interested in.. is to see how you code - i.e., untangle all the mess with lua-based aspects )
20110328 22:33:14< MGoods|RangerM> so it still acts reasonably predicatbly once you've learned how it works? And how does the current one work? Does it make use of heuristic functions (probably spelt wrong) or some other method of deciding which move is best?
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20110328 22:35:27< timotei> ok, good night guys
20110328 22:35:38< timotei> fendrin: I'll keep you updated tomorrow ;)
20110328 22:35:48< timotei> fendrin: if I forgot by chance, just remind be
20110328 22:35:49< timotei> me*
20110328 22:35:52< fendrin> timotei: thanks :-)
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20110328 22:36:46< zaroth> Crab_: around?
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20110328 22:37:05< Disruption> hello :)
20110328 22:37:10< timotei> hi Disruption 
20110328 22:37:26< Nephro> Crab_, thanks, I will tackle that tomorrow
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20110328 22:37:57< Nephro> I need to get friendly with the debuggin methods of msvc9 before that
20110328 22:38:14< Crab_> you can ask questions, too
20110328 22:38:20< Qbunia> mm Crab u afk or not?
20110328 22:38:24< Qbunia> i prived u ;>
20110328 22:38:26< Crab_> Qbunia: here:)
20110328 22:38:35< Crab_> Nephro: and note what I want to do ...
20110328 22:38:44< Disruption> I came here to take a look as part of my Google Summer Code application :)
20110328 22:38:44< Qbunia> so i got few questions about that AI
20110328 22:39:02< MGoods|RangerM> Seems to be quite a few of us asking about that right now ;P
20110328 22:39:16< zaroth> Crab_: fendrin: did any MP reenginering related discussion happen during the weekend that I should have a look at?
20110328 22:39:34< Crab_> zaroth: I haven't participated in any :)
20110328 22:39:40< Nephro> <Crab_> Nephro: and note what I want to do ... -- didn't get this one, sorry
20110328 22:39:41< Crab_> Nephro: I want to replace the current default multifaceted c++-based aspect with a lua aspect
20110328 22:39:52< Nephro> Oh, I understood that :)
20110328 22:40:51< Qbunia> okay but u mean to write lua code that uses c++ function right?
20110328 22:41:04< Qbunia> and without using luabidning ?? 
20110328 22:41:10< Qbunia> u mean doint it on stack ?
20110328 22:41:28< Logmorph> well, gnight all:)
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20110328 22:41:38< Crab_> Qbunia: yes. plus, write some lua code. yes, doing it on stack. see src/scripting/lua.cpp for how current code looks like for wesnoth lua support (not just in ai)
20110328 22:42:03< Crab_> Nephro: so, instead of [aspect] id=always [facet]value=0.4 id=always[/facet][/aspect], we'd have something like [aspect]engine=lua value="4"[/aspect]
20110328 22:42:14< Crab_> Disruption: hello :)
20110328 22:42:22< Qbunia> ye and how library should look like 
20110328 22:42:41< Qbunia> its like some code taht uses that lua in scenarios etc?
20110328 22:42:47< Crab_> Nephro: oops, [aspect]id=aggression engine=lua value=0.4[/aspect] :)
20110328 22:42:49< Qbunia> and show that itworks hurray happy day ?
20110328 22:43:03< Crab_> Nephro: that would be a first step. the second step would be to make it [aggression] value=0.4[/aggression]
20110328 22:43:07< Crab_> Nephro: and same for all other aspects.
20110328 22:43:23< Nephro> Crab_, I have a straighforward plan about the lua aspects, I failed to understand how C++ ones are constructed, because I stepped through the code in a hurry and missed the construction part. You already told me how you want the lua aspects to look like, that seems pretty clear
20110328 22:44:02< fendrin> zaroth: No, none I am aware of.
20110328 22:44:11< Crab_> Qbunia: the library should consist of some lua code that can be easily imported and used in the AI description for a scenario/era
20110328 22:44:42< Qbunia> ah got it 
20110328 22:44:51< Crab_> Qbunia: see data/ai/scenarios/scenario-lua-ai.cfg ( ./wesnoth -t lua_ai -d )
20110328 22:44:53< Qbunia> description of scenarios are in WML yes?
20110328 22:44:57< Crab_> yes
20110328 22:45:04< Qbunia> okey 
20110328 22:45:39< Crab_> Qbunia: http://svn.gna.org/viewcvs/wesnoth/trunk/data/ai/scenarios/scenario-lua-ai.cfg?revision=48991&view=markup
20110328 22:45:57< Crab_> this syntax is by no means set in stone, but it's just something that works now
20110328 22:46:09< Crab_> but it hasn't got access to various data structures and other stuff that the AI needs
20110328 22:46:38< Qbunia> okok
20110328 22:46:41< Crab_> Qbunia: so, the lua AI project will consist of 3 parts - firstly, write some c++ callbacks and refactor some c++ code to allow to plug-in lua easily
20110328 22:46:53< Crab_> Qbunia: then, write some useful lua ai functions, to be used by scenario authors
20110328 22:47:15< Crab_> Qbunia: then (if time will be left), try whatever fancy AI ideas you/we will think of.
20110328 22:47:51< MGoods|RangerM> Crab_, you never answered my question from before, how does the wesnoth AI work? Does it make use of Heuristic functions (almost certainly spelt wrong) or another method of deciding upon it's next move?
20110328 22:48:16< Crab_> MGoods|RangerM: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/Customizing_AI_in_Wesnoth_1.8#Working_with_main_loop_of_the_RCA_AI
20110328 22:48:20< Qbunia> ;)
20110328 22:48:45< Qbunia> ah now i get it whats for is this PREGSOC 
20110328 22:49:20< mordante> I'm off night
20110328 22:49:20< Qbunia> its mean for me to get knowledge what i can bring new in lua for scenario authors 
20110328 22:49:54-!- mordante [~mordante@wesnoth/developer/mordante] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
20110328 22:49:59< Crab_> yes, the intended users of the new lua ai system are the user-made content authors.
20110328 22:50:49< Qbunia> okey so i think i got it all thanks 
20110328 22:51:14< zookeeper> timotei, WML variables? no, in a campaign context they're never automatically cleared between scenarios.
20110328 22:51:33-!- Sytyi [~chatzilla@69-57-112-92.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110328 22:52:14< Crab_> Qbunia: ok, good luck to you, then. ask questions, if necessary.
20110328 22:52:20< MGoods|RangerM> Ah, yes that does appear to be heuristic in nature in that it scores moves (I assume based on the likely benefit the AI will reap from the action) and chooses the 'best one', thanks for the link Crab_, I'll do some more reading on it
20110328 22:54:00-!- zookeeper [~l@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has quit []
20110328 22:54:06< Crab_> MGoods|RangerM: the system supports, but does not use, any sophisticated heuristics at the moment- it's just, more or less, simple 'special moves then combat then strategic moves' stuff. but it can use stuff like 'positional analysis'-related heuristics
20110328 22:54:25< MGoods|RangerM> #
20110328 22:54:31< MGoods|RangerM> oops :P
20110328 22:54:45< Qbunia> :) 
20110328 22:57:56< MGoods|RangerM> Hmm, so it doesn't think ahead to the next move? (thinking of chess AIs specifically here, although Wesnoth's mechanics are more complex ofc), I guess that that could be a significant slow down on some computers, and wesnoth has always been quite firendly to older boxes, I think it might have been a goal of Dave's? (I don't remember if he said that, or someone else did somewhere else :P)
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20110328 23:00:25< MGoods|RangerM> Infact, thinking about it, that'd be a really bad idea, especially given the sheer number of moves any given unit can make, would definitely slow things down allot, unless u made use of heuristic functions to filter our 'bad paths' through the net of possible moves... 
20110328 23:00:37< MGoods|RangerM> but even then probably way to computationally heavy
20110328 23:05:08< Crab_> for combat, it checks 'multiple (up to 5-6) attackers vs single defender'
20110328 23:05:15< Crab_> for other things, 1 unit at a time
20110328 23:05:43< Crab_> yes, considering 2 units at a time are interesting for some situations (leadership/killing the blocking units/etc)
20110328 23:06:48< MGoods|RangerM> Ah, sorry, I misspoke (thinking of chess), I meant next turn, not next move, ofc it'll evaluate which unit or units should be moved to attack a specific target, that'd be part of the scoring system mentioned ont he page you linked
20110328 23:07:45< Crab_> for recruitment, we have some experimental code which checks possible actions on next turn
20110328 23:07:49< Crab_> for other stuff,no
20110328 23:09:12< MGoods|RangerM> Hmm, I'd assumed recruitment would just analyse the enemies units (I assume AIs are omnipotent about that kind of stuff, even with fog of war or shroud on) and attempt to 'counter' them, quite cleaver to have it conside rthe next move, especially as I remember gameplay having allot of action occuring quite near recruitng tiles
20110328 23:10:03< Crab_> yes, AIs are omnipotent even with fog of war.
20110328 23:10:26< Crab_> it analyzes opponents units and analyzes potential enemy recruits
20110328 23:11:49< Crab_> there are still problems, like (1) after recruiting, the AI needs to use the unit smartly ('the fish problem' - ai sees that the map has lots of water, recruits a fish, then it checks where the enemy is, and he's on land, so it moves its fish to land -oops :) ' )
20110328 23:12:37< Crab_> and (2) some units are good to attack with, some units are good to defend with - this breaks simple 'is unit A good vs unit B?' calculations (esp. when ulfserkers are involved) 
20110328 23:13:01< Nephro> A lot of this is solved with the help of what I got in mind :)
20110328 23:14:48< MGoods|RangerM> So the ai uses a vs b calculations rather than considering likely outcomes? (again, computationally cheaper, and possibly strategically wiser although that's a guess)
20110328 23:14:58< MGoods|RangerM> or maybe some kind of mix of the two?
20110328 23:15:32< MGoods|RangerM> and what did you have in mind? (and can only one person end up working on AI, or multiple people?)
20110328 23:15:39< MGoods|RangerM> hehe, so many questions :P
20110328 23:16:05< MGoods|RangerM> for gsoc that is (for that last question)
20110328 23:16:36-!- Seiyria [~Seiyria@141.233.52.230] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
20110328 23:17:38< loonycyborg> Currently AI really seems to suck compared to human players.
20110328 23:17:39< Crab_> MGoods|RangerM: a-vs-b calculation gives us (with the help of existing c++ code) a vector of hp/state distributions of the outcome
20110328 23:18:16-!- monochromatic is now known as elvish_sovereign
20110328 23:18:30 * deekay stares at Crab_
20110328 23:18:33 * deekay checks the chatlog window
20110328 23:18:40 * deekay stares at Crab_
20110328 23:18:41< deekay> ;p
20110328 23:19:26< Crab_> deekay: I was referring to the battle_context class
20110328 23:19:37< MGoods|RangerM> ah, so it's part of working out if the outcome is desirable on top of working out actual damage done to units, so a mix of the two
20110328 23:19:37< deekay> I know :)
20110328 23:19:55< Crab_> MGoods|RangerM: but, for purposes such as recruitment, it uses just numbers it gets from a-vs-b 
20110328 23:19:59< deekay> Crab_: I meant *chatlog window* - in game ;p
20110328 23:20:05< Crab_> deekay: ah )
20110328 23:20:10< deekay> Does that ring the bell? ;p ;p
20110328 23:20:16< Crab_> deekay: yes, now it is ;p
20110328 23:20:18< loonycyborg> Crab_: Does it consider its position wrt possible enemy actions on next turn in any way?
20110328 23:20:20< deekay> hehe
20110328 23:20:22< deekay> :)
20110328 23:20:47< Crab_> MGoods|RangerM: mutiple people can end up working on AI. I believe this happened 2 times in wesnoth/gsoc history.
20110328 23:21:35< MGoods|RangerM> good
20110328 23:21:54< Crab_> loonycyborg: yes, since AI can't defend, we force it to attack. if aggression is 0.5, then it will happily attack at 2:1 odds, so, given 400 gold, AI will be more-or-less equal to human with 200 gold. even worse when we take advancement opportunities into account.
20110328 23:22:40< Crab_> loonycyborg: yes, via the 'power_projection' functions - a shorthand easy-to-calculate approximation of how hard it'll be hit next turn on a particular hex
20110328 23:23:01< Crab_> deekay: I'll try to finish that stuff this week.
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20110328 23:23:59< loonycyborg> In any case, when playing mp I've found humans to be a lot harder than ai in mp local games.
20110328 23:23:59< deekay> Crab_: No worries, I'm not rushing you :) Just making sure you didn't forget. If you don't have time, then it's fine.
20110328 23:24:14< fendrin> A defending ai would be awesome.
20110328 23:24:27< Crab_> loonycyborg: and if we somehow teach the ai to defend (not just passive defence, but pushes/threats/etc), we'll be able to run it with lower aggression and it'll be 'smarter', not so easy to trick into sacrificing it's units
20110328 23:24:32< fendrin> It would need to gain a feeling for zoc somehow.
20110328 23:25:09< Crab_> yes
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20110328 23:35:32< anonymissimus> Crab_: did you notice what i said about the side= etc issue ?
20110328 23:37:50< Crab_> anonymissimus: I think 'yes'
20110328 23:38:32< anonymissimus> i did only add comma-separated list support; the default value change was Gambits idea
20110328 23:38:51< anonymissimus> the recruit tags aren't changed
20110328 23:41:40< Crab_> anonymissimus: yes, you're right. we were quite in hurry to find all the places where stuff was changed, so I've picked out some suspicious commits to review them by hand.
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20110328 23:42:42< anonymissimus> afaik (that is, I'm pretty sure) it was only changed for [remove_shroud], [place_shroud] and [gold]
20110328 23:43:05< Crab_> and it was reverted for those tags on sunday
20110328 23:43:09< anonymissimus> so you did catch everything
20110328 23:43:13< Crab_> that's good
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20110328 23:59:07< Disruption> Yay, I finally completed and submitted my Wesnoth Summer Code proposal
20110328 23:59:13< Disruption> It really took time ._.
20110328 23:59:16< Crab_> that's good )
20110328 23:59:57< Disruption> I hope I find Boucman some day around here. I chose his Content Frontend idea
--- Log closed Tue Mar 29 00:00:03 2011