--- Log opened Wed Mar 30 00:00:03 2011
20110330 00:01:03< elias> so you want a --pbl option, and the filename there is used instead of the _server.pbl then?
20110330 00:01:51< Espreon> Yes.
20110330 00:02:23< elias> ok, i'll add it tomorrow... remind me if i forget
20110330 00:02:35< Espreon> OK, thanks.
20110330 00:07:55< Aethaeryn> Crab_: Woah, I joined channels in wrong order and so thought #wesnoth (normally 2, was 3) was #wesnoth-dev and that you weren't here.
20110330 00:07:58< Aethaeryn> sorry
20110330 00:08:07< Crab_> :)
20110330 00:08:25< Aethaeryn> I *finally* have a solid chunk of time to spend on the coding
20110330 00:08:33< Crab_> great
20110330 00:09:34 * fendrin is wondering about labels.
20110330 00:10:45< fendrin> Is it possible to have a label only visible to some teams and a global visible label on the same hex field?
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20110330 00:11:25< Aethaeryn> Crab_: where exactly is the cfg object defined? It shows up a lot.
20110330 00:11:39< Crab_> fendrin: afair, no
20110330 00:12:14< Crab_> Aethaeryn: it's the argument to wml_handler_function macro
20110330 00:12:18< fendrin> I think we should redesign how labels are handled and do a recoding.
20110330 00:12:21< Crab_> Aethaeryn: it contains the tag contents
20110330 00:12:25< fendrin> The code is a mess.
20110330 00:13:43< shadowmaster> Reimplementing Wesnoth is a good idea too.
20110330 00:14:10< fendrin> :-)
20110330 00:14:26< Aethaeryn> Crab_: so "cfg" is the same thing as the stuff within [foobar] bar = "foo", asdf = "qwerty"[/foobar]?
20110330 00:14:31< Aethaeryn> It contains the bar and the asdf stuff?
20110330 00:14:43< Crab_> yes
20110330 00:15:19< Aethaeryn> Crab_: So should I convert most of the gui_message stuff to cfg so it's handled the old way, except for the Lua-specific part (the options)?
20110330 00:15:29< Aethaeryn> So as to optimally reuse the code.
20110330 00:15:43< Crab_> yes
20110330 00:16:24< Aethaeryn> Okay. Sorry for not really having code in yet. Last week was spring break so I was a bit more busy than I thought, and the code is 1000x more complex than anything I've really worked with before.
20110330 00:16:29< Aethaeryn> In that, there's a lot going on.
20110330 00:17:07< Aethaeryn> In the code, there's a lot going on, I mean.
20110330 00:17:08< shadowmaster> Aethaeryn: that's the difference between programming course practice, and real-life experience.
20110330 00:17:42< shadowmaster> IME, the latter is more satisfactory at the end, even if you end up ripping your hair off in the process.
20110330 00:17:53< Aethaeryn> shadowmaster: Programming courses = interface with a few files at most (usually written by 1-3 people), by creating new files. This = interface with hundreds (thousands?) of files written by dozens of people over the course of years, and just write small parts of each file.
20110330 00:18:30< Crab_> ok
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20110330 00:18:54< Aethaeryn> I'm finally to the point where I'm not totally lost in the related code areas.
20110330 00:18:59< Aethaeryn> Good thing I'm doing it now :-P
20110330 00:19:52< shadowmaster> Aethaeryn: Yes, I didn't need to be told what I meant.
20110330 00:20:40< Aethaeryn> Hmm
20110330 00:20:42< CIA-89> espreon * r49061 /trunk/data/campaigns/Delfadors_Memoirs/scenarios/09_Houses_of_the_Undead.cfg: Added an ID argument to MEMOIRS_DEAD_HOUSE; restricted NAME to name= keys. Fixes bug #17964.
20110330 00:21:17< fendrin> Espreon: Thanks.
20110330 00:21:21< Espreon> No prob.
20110330 00:22:10< Espreon> I really cannot believe that NAME was being used for both id= and name=.
20110330 00:22:13< Espreon> Tsk tsk...
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20110330 00:58:14< shadowmaster> Espreon: most of DM's first half comes from the dinosaur era.
20110330 00:58:23< shadowmaster> that is, Windows 1.0.
20110330 00:58:30< Espreon> I see.
20110330 00:58:32< shadowmaster> so it's not surprising. 
20110330 00:58:35< shadowmaster> er.
20110330 00:58:41< Espreon> Heh...
20110330 00:58:41< shadowmaster> Wesnoth 1.0.
20110330 00:59:11< shadowmaster> Espreon: I remember playing DM in Wesnoth 1.0.2.
20110330 00:59:26< shadowmaster> back then, Delfador was truer to his definition.
20110330 00:59:27-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: released 1.9.5, announcing "soon" | Google Summer of Code: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SummerOfCodeIdeas | 191 bugs, 304 feature requests, 19 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
20110330 00:59:37< shadowmaster> instead of, you know, a walking pile of clichés.
20110330 00:59:51< Espreon> I see.
20110330 01:00:21< shadowmaster> also, Wesnoth compiled within a reasonable timespan.
20110330 01:00:28< shadowmaster> instead of, you know, 1 hour.
20110330 01:01:14< shadowmaster> I don't know who came up with the notion that C++ templating should be squeezed for all its worth, but he or she surely didn't foresee the current situation.
20110330 01:01:52< shadowmaster> either that or they were running a 1000 cores or sth distributed computing network
20110330 01:09:34< Aethaeryn> shadowmaster: You don't use a supercomputer cluster to cross-compile your Wesnoth? 
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20110330 01:19:05< CIA-89> esr * r49062 /trunk/data/campaigns/Northern_Rebirth/scenarios/13a_Showdown.cfg: Address bug #17920: Northern Rebirth, Showdown, Elves villages are not properly automatically capturedcaptured
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20110330 03:00:23< fendrin> shadowmaster: Around?
20110330 03:00:36< shadowmaster> Possibly.
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20110330 03:01:10< fendrin> You seemed to be the person who is most interested in the soundsource placement feature.
20110330 03:01:41< shadowmaster> back when I considered sound sources to be the coolest thing since sliced bread, yes.
20110330 03:01:54< fendrin> Do you have an idea how it could work? Not code but gui wise.
20110330 03:02:31< fendrin> I think I can enable them in the editor so that one can hear them.
20110330 03:02:49< fendrin> But there also needs to be some visual mark, including the range.
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20110330 03:50:49< CIA-89> espreon * r49063 /trunk/po/ (wesnoth-trow/ang@latin.po wesnoth-tsg/ang@latin.po): Updated the Old English translation.
20110330 03:51:51< CIA-89> esr * r49064 /trunk/data/campaigns/ (7 files in 3 dirs): It's an autonomous secondary world. Clean up Earth names.
20110330 04:00:27< shadowmaster> esr: 
20110330 04:00:29< shadowmaster> shadowm@reicore:~/src/wesnoth$ ls data/campaigns/Two_Brothers/images/portraits 
20110330 04:00:32< shadowmaster> arne.png  bjarn.png
20110330 04:00:35< shadowmaster> shadowm@reicore:~/src/wesnoth$
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20110330 04:06:56< esr> shadowmaster: Thanks.
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20110330 04:17:37< _sagi> hi
20110330 04:17:55< _sagi> how to apply for wesnoth-gsoc ?
20110330 04:25:39< CIA-89> esr * r49065 /trunk/data/campaigns/Two_Brothers/ (9 files in 2 dirs): Follow up on elimination of Earth names.
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20110330 04:44:24< _sagi> help anyone ?
20110330 04:44:43< _sagi> how to submit the proposal and where ?
20110330 04:48:02< _sagi> Sirp_, 
20110330 04:48:48< shadowmaster> _sagi: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SummerOfCodeIdeas
20110330 04:52:47< _sagi> shadowmaster, how should i copy the following template http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SoC2011_Template_of_Student_page and where to paste the edited version
20110330 04:52:55< _sagi> It's quite unclear
20110330 04:54:58< shadowmaster> you simply type the address of the page you want to create and edit it?
20110330 04:57:22< _sagi> shadowmaster,  ?? :( typing address at browser ?
20110330 04:57:51< shadowmaster> uhm, yes
20110330 04:58:04< shadowmaster> like http://wiki.wesnoth.org/Title_of_my_new_page
20110330 04:58:06< _sagi> shadowmaster, Please guide me. I am applying for Gsoc for the first time. Sorry.
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20110330 04:58:52< shadowmaster> I'm not entirely familiarized with the process myself either, since I'm just a dev and not one of the mentors...
20110330 04:59:14< _sagi> hm. k
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20110330 05:23:44< _sagi> Ivanovic, Can you guide me in "copying the template" from gsoc template
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20110330 05:28:17< _sagi> help anyone. I have an idea which i already executed in my game-currently under progress.
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20110330 06:59:27-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: released 1.9.5, announcing "soon" | Google Summer of Code: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SummerOfCodeIdeas | 190 bugs, 304 feature requests, 19 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
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20110330 07:00:46< _sagi> hello
20110330 07:01:06< _sagi> Who is the mentor for wesnoth-spritesheets idea
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20110330 07:24:17< _sagi> anyone there ?
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20110330 07:29:42< Sytyi> hi
20110330 07:31:04< _sagi> hi
20110330 07:31:22< _sagi> who is the mentor for Spritesheet-idea
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20110330 07:41:07< _sagi> HELP !
20110330 07:42:35< shadowmaster> IIRC that'd be boucman
20110330 07:43:02< shadowmaster> (also, repeating yourself won't help much at this time of the day. Keep in mind that it's just about to be 06:00 UTC)
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20110330 08:03:59< timotei-temp> _sagi: boucman is usually online in the european evenings, that is UTC+1
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20110330 08:10:12< Qbunia> hi 
20110330 08:10:18< Qbunia> some1 here
20110330 08:10:18< timotei-temp> hi Qbunia 
20110330 08:10:18< Qbunia> ?
20110330 08:10:23< Qbunia> oh hi :) so 
20110330 08:10:28< timotei-temp> Qbunia: why asking? :P
20110330 08:10:40< Qbunia> why ppl add their personal info on ideas page?
20110330 08:10:56< timotei-temp> Qbunia: who adds?
20110330 08:12:47< Qbunia> http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SummerOfCodeIdeas
20110330 08:12:56< Qbunia> look at AI and Nephro 
20110330 08:12:59< Qbunia> why he added it ?
20110330 08:13:26< timotei-temp> Qbunia: he didn't add it to the ideas page :)
20110330 08:13:41< timotei-temp> the ideas page aggregates the =Description= contents and adds automatically on the page
20110330 08:13:47< timotei-temp> when it displays it to the user ;)
20110330 08:14:19< Qbunia> okey so 
20110330 08:14:19< timotei-temp> Qbunia: oh, and also, you are free to add anything on your proposal page :)
20110330 08:14:21< Qbunia> what for is it added?
20110330 08:14:32< timotei-temp> umm... the questionnnaire is mandatory
20110330 08:14:33< timotei-temp> :)
20110330 08:15:10< Qbunia> cant i add this on 8th April
20110330 08:15:10< Qbunia> ?
20110330 08:16:09< timotei-temp> Qbunia: you can of course, but IDK if it will be good :P
20110330 08:16:25< timotei-temp> Qbunia: well, actually the questionnaire is just so that the mentors will know ya better
20110330 08:16:26< timotei-temp> that's all
20110330 08:16:39< timotei-temp> the important matter is actually the idea "proposal"
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20110330 08:20:55< Qbunia> ok 
20110330 08:20:55< Qbunia> ;)
20110330 08:22:19< tschmitz> Think boucman will be on tomorrow?
20110330 08:23:38< tschmitz> Presumably I'll be interested in asking about the whiteboard
20110330 08:29:47< zaroth> if somebody with moderator powers is reading that, that topic: http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=33426 can be marked as done/implemented
20110330 08:31:14< shadowmaster> hi, yes, shadowmaster here reporting for duty
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20110330 08:32:03< shadowmaster> zaroth: done
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20110330 10:01:55< Ivanovic> moin
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20110330 10:16:25< shadowmaster> Ivanovic: so, is that silly Mac OS X package the only thing delaying the release announcement?
20110330 10:16:33< Ivanovic> yeah
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20110330 10:20:40< Ivanovic> crimson_penguin: any news regarding the OSX package?
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20110330 11:17:51< fabi> Let's just drop support for apple at all.
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20110330 11:36:29< AI0867> fabi: yeah, that'll help us with art
20110330 11:37:31< fabi> AI0867: :-)
20110330 11:37:48< fabi> AI0867: Wasn't meant very seriously as you may already have guessed :-)
20110330 11:38:09< CIA-89> ai0867 * r49066 /trunk/ (2 files in 2 dirs): Fix an event name (the nonexistent 'event' key was used instead)
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20110330 11:59:22< Nephro> Who is responsible for the low level parts of the game? I've got some weird problem that I fail to solve, maybe I drop it on someone else :) File: unit.cpp
20110330 12:00:25< AI0867> eh, plenty of people
20110330 12:00:41< AI0867> it's less of a case 'responsible' and more of 'knowledgeable'
20110330 12:00:58< AI0867> I'm reasonably familiar with that file
20110330 12:01:05< AI0867> what's your problem?
20110330 12:11:32< Nephro> argh... sorry
20110330 12:11:38< Nephro> i'll tell you later
20110330 12:11:41< Nephro> now I have a new problem
20110330 12:12:03< Nephro> after recompiling wesnoth I have squares instead of symbols, letters and numbers
20110330 12:12:29< AI0867> windows?
20110330 12:12:33< AI0867> reboot
20110330 12:12:42< AI0867> otherwise fonts won't install properly
20110330 12:12:48< Nephro> Seriously? :) Do you use windows too?
20110330 12:12:50< AI0867> nope
20110330 12:12:54< AI0867> but it's a common issue
20110330 12:12:57< Nephro> Do you have windows?
20110330 12:12:59< AI0867> nope
20110330 12:13:13< Nephro> The unit.cpp issue did not occur in linux
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20110330 13:28:29< FishbaitHarry> Hello, everyone, I hope I found the right place, because I'm not using IRC often.
20110330 13:29:00< FishbaitHarry> I'm a student (from Poland) and I read the page about 2011 Google Summer of Code.
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20110330 13:30:50< FishbaitHarry> If there's someone alive around, I've got a couple of questions regarding the program, otherwise I'll just be sitting here for a while.
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20110330 13:36:02< Nephro> FishbaitHarry, hi... You should ask your questions even if noone is active at the moment. Many senior devs read logs, they will answer you when they come
20110330 13:37:58< Nephro> And yes, this probably is the right place to ask questions about GSoC 2011, if you are intending to participate in Wesnoth's project
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20110330 13:43:52< FishbaitHarry> Ok, so first of all I was wondering - Student Application period just recently started, but I saw plenty have happened during the last two weeks and many of the project ideas seem taken, so I'm not sure is it worth to add myself there. I assume that when there are two or more people who want to use the same project idea, one will be chosen, or is it that it's possible to expand the idea 
20110330 13:43:52< FishbaitHarry> so that a couple of people will work on different parts of it?
20110330 13:46:07< FishbaitHarry> Moreover, I hope I'm not too late, because I wasn't sure if I wasn't supposed to start applying during the "Would-be student participants discuss application ideas with mentoring organizations." period that was week ago.
20110330 13:48:25< timotei> FishbaitHarry: Well, it doesn't matter when you've started. As long as your proposal is good and you prove us you are good enough to implement/finish it successfully, then it's ok :)
20110330 13:49:08< Salade> looks like ppl in this group is busy with GSoC :-)
20110330 13:49:36< Salade> guys, i made another developer resource page that show the terrain image and code with a search function
20110330 13:49:38< Salade> http://wesnoth.cybergamecity.com/dev/terrains
20110330 13:50:31< Salade> it's all just for fun. probably only a few dev may need to lookup the terrian code.
20110330 13:52:10< Salade> i notice that the terrain file structure is changed in 1.9 branch and i display 1.9.4 images as well (but i didn't put the 1.9.4) codebase on the server so it won't work anyway
20110330 13:52:21< fabi> Salade: Nice, I need them quite often.
20110330 13:52:41< fabi> Salade: Please link your work from the wiki.
20110330 13:52:47< Salade> let me know if you want the page to be displayed differnetly or to improve the search function
20110330 13:52:56< Salade> u r probably the only user of that page ;-)
20110330 13:53:11< FishbaitHarry> Sorry for cluttering the dev channel, but back to GSOC :). - Also, I was wondering if it is still possible to propose a new project idea, because I have a few in mind (related to some stuff I'm working on at the university, mostly related to AI).
20110330 13:53:29< fabi> FishbaitHarry: Yes that is still possible.
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20110330 13:54:10< fabi> Salade: Displaying the rules (defense/movement) would be nice. Especially for the mixed ones.
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20110330 13:55:18< fabi> hi loonybot
20110330 13:55:22< fabi> hi loonycyborg
20110330 13:55:34< loonycyborg> Hello.
20110330 13:55:38< FishbaitHarry> That's great, at the moment I think I have to rush to university, but I'll surely be back sometime today to further discuss my aplication. Cya.
20110330 13:55:52< fabi> FishbaitHarry: bye
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20110330 13:57:14< fabi> hi champ
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20110330 14:06:48< zookeeper> esr, wouldn't something like "arnel" or "arneas" be good enough for a replacement for "arne"? just wondering since frankly "arvith" does... uh, sound like a somewhat bland and generic fantasy name to me ;)
20110330 14:08:39< esr> zookeeper: I'm not wedded to it.  Change it if you with - I was just executing the "get rid of Earth names" task/
20110330 14:08:46< zookeeper> okay
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20110330 14:35:48< CIA-89> ai0867 * r49067 /branches/editor/ (11463 files in 408 dirs): Merge trunk up to r49003
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20110330 14:44:33< AI0867> fabi: ^
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20110330 14:50:05< fabi> AI0867: Thank you very much :-)
20110330 14:50:10< fabi> Crab_: hi
20110330 14:50:44< Crab_> fabi: hi
20110330 14:54:35< timotei> yay! my MIPS processor works :D
20110330 14:54:40< timotei> and I shall work on the proposal soon
20110330 14:55:20< timotei> fabi, Crab_: I'm wondering, since it may sound weird, it's ok after I finish the proposal to actually start working on that so I can show I can get it done? :P
20110330 14:55:27< timotei> start working = start coding
20110330 14:56:21< Crab_> timotei: coding is always ok.
20110330 14:56:41< Crab_> timotei: you're not guaranteed to be accepted, of course, but you're welcome to start coding
20110330 14:56:50< timotei> Crab_: of course :)
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20110330 15:15:34< Nephro> Hello, Crab_! http://pastebin.com/xssFh3c1 -- would this be the right way to make the engine call do_parse_aspect_from_config() of the Lua engine? Sorry for the tabs, pastebin isn't too clever 
20110330 15:15:59< Crab_> name= is not required
20110330 15:16:03< Nephro> I tried this, but it calls the empty method do_parse_aspect_from_config of the engine itself
20110330 15:16:06< Crab_> it's only used by c++ engine
20110330 15:16:15< Crab_> Nephro: yes, it's ok. and then... ?
20110330 15:16:51< Nephro> It's ok? Should it call the do_parse_aspect_from_config( of the lua engine? That's what it does with c++ aspects
20110330 15:17:31< Nephro> If I drop the name= will it create the standard_aspect?
20110330 15:17:35< Crab_> initially, it's call to  static void parse_engine_from_config( readonly_context &context, const config &cfg, std::back_insert_iterator<std::vector< engine_ptr > > b );
20110330 15:18:17< Crab_> sorry, a typo
20110330 15:18:26< Crab_> a call to void engine::parse_aspect_from_config
20110330 15:18:30< Nephro> aspect, yes :)
20110330 15:18:51< fabi> nagbot: help
20110330 15:19:31< nagbot> sorry, the help command is not implemented. Ask Crab_ for details.
20110330 15:19:31< fabi> nagbot: timotei?
20110330 15:19:32< nagbot> timotei : http://wiki.wesnoth.org//SummerofCode2011_Timotei21 : http://www.google-melange.com/gsoc/proposal/review/google/gsoc2011/timoteidolean/1
20110330 15:19:51< fabi> nagbot: Sytyi?
20110330 15:19:51< nagbot> sytyi : http://wiki.wesnoth.org//User:Sytyi : http://www.google-melange.com/gsoc/proposal/review/google/gsoc2011/nicksytyi/1
20110330 15:19:55< Nephro> Crab_, I know the sequence for the C++ aspects, but it didn't seem to repeat with the lua ones, so I figured I made a mistake in WML, which I am very bad at at the moment
20110330 15:20:27< Crab_> : that calls get_engine_by_cfg, engine_ptr readonly_context_impl::get_engine_by_cfg(const config& cfg)
20110330 15:20:32< Crab_> and that selects the engine to use
20110330 15:20:44< Crab_> so, just debug it to see what's going on
20110330 15:21:15< Crab_> std::string engine_name = cfg["engine"]; should return "lua"
20110330 15:21:33< Crab_> then, the lua engine would be created on first access
20110330 15:23:43< Sytyi> fabi: At your service. 
20110330 15:26:05< Nephro> Crab_,  If I drop the name= will it try to create the standard_aspect?
20110330 15:26:19< fabi> hi Sytyi
20110330 15:26:32< Crab_> Nephro: doesn't matter
20110330 15:26:40< Crab_> Nephro: the engine can create anything it wants
20110330 15:26:49< Crab_> c++ engine uses the name= to find a component in registry.cpp
20110330 15:27:00< Crab_> lua engine can act in any way it wants
20110330 15:27:14< Crab_> so, it doesn't need a name=, unless your code will require it
20110330 15:27:24< Crab_> you need to add a pointer to the aspect to the inserter
20110330 15:27:28< fabi> I still wonder about the usefulness of the grammar you provide in your proposal. But I don't want to tell you to remove it since we are still discussing it between the mentors.
20110330 15:27:42< champ> hello, I'm a computer science student participating GSoC 2011. Wanna join this game project for 'LuaAI Improvement'. This is the first time I'm doing in open source project. Could anyone give some help on what to start?
20110330 15:27:46< Nephro> Oh, right, I can just take the standard_aspect factory by hand in the engines parser
20110330 15:28:39< fabi> champ: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/Category:Summer_of_Code_2011
20110330 15:29:21< fabi> champ: start with http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SummerOfCodeIdeas
20110330 15:31:31< Sytyi> fabi: At first I want to write it trying  to make parsing automat. Then mordante said somethin like "improve it and I'll give you a task" I misunderstood him, and think that I need to improve grammar to take an extra grammar based idea. But later he talled me that he just meant to improve ny proposal and to give me a task to check my abilities.  
20110330 15:32:09< Sytyi> fabi: So grammar was just born by missunderstood
20110330 15:32:17< champ> fabi: I have reviewed this two links above. And I've got an idea on improving Lua scripts access control for more safer Lua scripting system.
20110330 15:33:42< fabi> Sytyi: A good working grammar will be a gain for the eclipse umc plugin. So your work is useful. Just get sure that what you want to do with the wml validator can be seen from your proposal page. So extra tasks you did that are not related that much should be marked as such.
20110330 15:35:10< Crab_> champ: the 'safety' of the lua ai is needed because lua can do things that the player cannot
20110330 15:35:22< Crab_> for example, using lua, we can debug-create units or teleport unit around
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20110330 15:35:38< Crab_> in a MP game, the other players won't "see" this
20110330 15:35:42< Crab_> thus, the game will get out of sync
20110330 15:35:45< Crab_> (OoS)
20110330 15:36:00< Crab_> to prevent those, we need to make sure we only call 'allowed' stuff from the AI
20110330 15:36:25< Crab_> it's not an issue of restricting what the author can do, it's more like making it easy to detect such cases to fix those
20110330 15:36:45< champ> Crab_: My idea is to add access level and tokens to the data which Lua can access.
20110330 15:37:14< Crab_> i.e., an OoS is annoyingly hard to find and fix, but if we, say, just raise a flag 'hey, this lua ai code changed something in the game when the ai was 'thinking', this will be enough
20110330 15:37:22< Crab_> we don't need any sophisticated security
20110330 15:37:23< Sytyi> fabi: Now I'm thinking how to improve my proposal more and more. But usually inspiration comes when I'm  in bed. 
20110330 15:37:39< Crab_> because the lua code is sandboxed anyway
20110330 15:37:56< Crab_> we only need to make it easy to spot violations, places where not-MP-safe stuff is used
20110330 15:38:08< Crab_> the same issue exists for WML tags, by the way - some of the WML is not mp-safe
20110330 15:38:24< fabi> Sytyi: Or when showering :-)
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20110330 15:38:41< fabi> hi eleazzaar
20110330 15:39:12< Nephro> Crab_, i found the reason, why it doesn't call the method of the lua engine... that was stupid of me not to find that faster, but there isn't an overridden method in the lua engine, so it calls the empty method of the engine itself... I am not the best out there in C++/OO, but shouldn't the engines empty method be made virtual?
20110330 15:40:16< champ> Crab_: in my point some function maybe mp-unsafe but when it be used mp-safely it may usefull.
20110330 15:40:34< Crab_> Nephro: virtual is defined in .hpp file
20110330 15:40:48< Crab_> Nephro: so, you don't use that keyword in c++
20110330 15:40:57< Nephro> but it's implemented in the .cpp
20110330 15:41:02< Crab_> Nephro: yes
20110330 15:41:16< Crab_> Nephro: note the comments in .hpp explaining why the method is not marked as pure virtual
20110330 15:41:33< Crab_> that is '//do not override that method in subclasses which cannot create aspects'
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20110330 15:42:13< Crab_> so, it's not pure virtual to make sure that other engines are not forced to implement it if they don't need
20110330 15:42:29< Nephro> I got it... Thanks again :)
20110330 15:43:03< Crab_> champ: you're welcome to detail your proposal, describing it more
20110330 15:43:18< fabi> esr: I have some work going on to polish NR, shall I assign the new elvish flag where appropriate?
20110330 15:43:21< Nephro> I love how I learn more in two weeks, than I did in a whole year of university :)
20110330 15:43:28< Crab_> Nephro :)
20110330 15:43:46< Crab_> champ: but note that we need to extend lua ai binding as well, at least partly the project should be devoted to that
20110330 15:44:25< Crab_> champ: generally, if you work quick enough, the 'mandatory' part will be done in 1/2 to 2/3 of the summer time, so 1/2 to 1/3 will be there for 'whatever good things you want to try with the AI'
20110330 15:44:29< champ> Crab_: yes, i also wanna this access check transparent to lua
20110330 15:44:43< Crab_> ok, good
20110330 15:48:24< champ> Crab_: i just SVN out the 1.9.5 source. And I just know a basic about lua grammar. Could you remind me which part of code and doc I need review first? Thanks.
20110330 15:48:43< Crab_> src/scripting/lua.cpp - wesnoth/lua bindings
20110330 15:49:13< Crab_> data/core/lua/* - some general lua scripts
20110330 15:49:17< esr> fabi: Sure.
20110330 15:49:50< Crab_> data/ai/scenarios/scenario-lua-ai.cfg - lua ai test scenario, accessible via ./wesnoth -t lua_ai -d
20110330 15:49:59< Crab_> data/ai/ais - some example c++ ai configurations
20110330 15:50:06< esr> fabi: I fixed one NR bug yesterday and assigned you anotherbecause it looks like the kind of problem you're good at.
20110330 15:50:21< Crab_> also check the formula-ai related wiki pages to see what stuff the formula ai exposed, and check what's possible through lua, to see what's missing
20110330 15:50:38< Nephro> Crab_,  ./wesnoth -t lua_ai -d -- doesn't work on windows without minor modifications to unit.cpp... I tried to fix that, but failed
20110330 15:50:56< Crab_> interesting )
20110330 15:51:50< Nephro> There's an assertion failed error in runtime... I commented out the assertion, got an unhandled exception... Then I commented out a whole part of that code and it works now.
20110330 15:52:02< Nephro> Note that the game seems to work fine
20110330 15:52:15< Nephro> I mean wesnoth.exe without parameters
20110330 15:52:53< AI0867> fabi: and now fully up-to-date:
20110330 15:53:58< champ> Crab_: Thanks, i'll setup my wiki page 2 or 3 days. And my most possible online time is 10AM~7PM GMT+8.
20110330 15:54:21< fabi> AI0867: There had been many changes in trunk, I am not sure if I got everything right, although I carefully applied manual merging for them. The merge with trunks will get quite nasty.  
20110330 15:54:59< CIA-89> ai0867 * r49068 /branches/editor/ (789 files in 81 dirs): Merge trunk up to r49067
20110330 15:55:28< crimson_penguin> Ivanovic: I decided to walk Jetrel through doing it, but we started late due to me traveling yesterday, and ran into problems (nothing major, just tedious stuff); he wanted to get back to drawing, and I wanted to go to bed... but it should be just about done, so HOPEFULLY we can get the package up today
20110330 15:55:30< AI0867> fabi: you did hand-merging in the meantime?
20110330 15:55:34< fabi> AI0867: So those parts I imported from the old branch are not necessarily clean.
20110330 15:55:41< Crab_> that makes it 5:00 - 14:00 in my summer GMT+3 , so, it's technically possible to talk in the mornings.
20110330 15:55:43< AI0867> that explains why my merging was so nasty
20110330 15:55:57< AI0867> there were some files that were deleted in the branch, but edited in trunk
20110330 15:56:09< fabi> AI0867: No.
20110330 15:56:34< fabi> AI0867: Do you talk about the action classes?
20110330 15:56:45< AI0867> no, the general updating of the branch
20110330 15:56:53< Nephro> champ, gmt+8 is what country?
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20110330 15:56:59< fabi> I just hate working in branches.
20110330 15:57:11< champ> Nephro: P.R.China
20110330 15:57:28< Nephro> That was my second guess :)
20110330 15:57:48< AI0867> it's easier in git, but the talk given at fosdem applies: "get your patches into mainline early"
20110330 15:57:49< fabi> AI0867: I did not merge trunk into the branch, but when porting the old to the new I had already to deal with many changed files.
20110330 15:57:59< AI0867> ah
20110330 15:58:13< AI0867> then svn must have done some crazy stuff
20110330 15:58:16< champ> Nephro: I see you are also in LuaAI part. So what time about you?
20110330 15:58:21< AI0867> which isn't suprising
20110330 15:58:27< fabi> :-)
20110330 15:59:04< Nephro> I am from Latvia, I think the time Crab_ said is exact same for me
20110330 16:00:15 * Nephro @ lunch
20110330 16:01:06< fabi> AI0867: With the exception of some gui2 classes I needed to work on.
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20110330 16:01:20< fabi> AI0867: But that should have been rather uncritical.
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20110330 16:53:43< Nephro> Crab_, would it be better to branch the constructor of standard_aspect or add a class like lua_aspect?
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20110330 17:11:33< Crab_> both is ok
20110330 17:11:41< Crab_> branching is more in line with current code
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20110330 17:34:59< mordante> servus
20110330 17:35:28< Ivanovic> hi mordante
20110330 17:35:36< mordante> hi Ivanovic 
20110330 17:35:38< mordante> zaroth, there's not really a combo box widget yet, the listbox is closest
20110330 17:35:57< mordante> Sytyi, you pinged me
20110330 17:36:59< Sytyi> mordante: yes. I've improved proposal a little. make a look please. And any advices or critical is welcome. 
20110330 17:37:58< mordante> zaroth, there are some parts in the listbox and treeview implementation I'm not entirely happy with so the combo box needs to wait until that time
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20110330 17:44:11< mordante> Sytyi, I see in the log you mentioned more improvements to your idea 
20110330 17:44:40< mordante> and I agree with Crab_, make a list of items and their priority
20110330 17:44:48< mordante> must be done or not
20110330 17:45:13< mordante> some of your ideas are nice to have, but surely not a must have
20110330 17:45:58< mordante> and for me documentation has a high priority
20110330 17:46:29< mordante> we always hope a student stays after GSoC but if they don't it's easier to work on something with good documentation
20110330 17:47:11< mordante> btw zaroth there's also a gui2 design document written in LaTeX which shows how to add a new widget and new dialog
20110330 17:49:51< AI0867> but it's always preferable if the person who wrote the code stays around. ANA has a lot of documentation, but I don't know where and how to plug into the thing
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20110330 17:51:01< AI0867> billynux is (somewhat) reachable over email though
20110330 17:53:26< mordante> AI0867, yeah that's a bit the problem with ANA
20110330 17:53:50< mordante> Sytyi, I won't be around for much longer, but regarding your task
20110330 17:54:16< mordante> normally we give something in the code area the student is working on, but in your case there is nothing yet
20110330 17:54:32< mordante> so your task will be a small proof-of-concept idea
20110330 17:54:53< Sytyi> mordante: I'm working about pascal trnalstor now
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20110330 17:55:32< mordante> Sytyi, http://wiki.wesnoth.org/GUICanvasWML
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20110330 17:55:52< Sytyi> mordante: can Syntax parsing tree maker be an example? (lexic analyssis too)
20110330 17:56:11< mordante> this page contains the data generated from gui/auxiliary/canvas.cpp
20110330 17:56:51< mordante> the first part is to manually write a schema file for the canvas tag
20110330 17:57:26< mordante> the types int, tstring, color etc can be expected to be 'known' to the schema
20110330 17:57:34< Sytyi> mordante: OK. and maybe add annotations to this source
20110330 17:57:52< mordante> yes that will be the next step
20110330 17:58:07< mordante> the canvas can have zero or one pre commit blocks
20110330 17:58:38< mordante> and zero of more of the line, rectangle, circle, text and image blocks
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20110330 17:59:09< mordante> there is no fixed order in which the blocks need to appear
20110330 17:59:46< mordante> (the engine will do the pre thing first but the order in WML is not fixed)
20110330 18:00:35< Sytyi> mordante: I m working on pascal translator now. Can I send you some code as an example?  
20110330 18:01:10< mordante> you can, you can also post the schema in your proposal and post a patch at GNA
20110330 18:01:13< AI0867> mordante: yeah, I've actually tried to use it (and fix an issue in it), but that didn't work out very well
20110330 18:01:41< mordante> if you rather want to send an email, you can find my address in the source of canvas.cpp
20110330 18:01:46< Sytyi> mordante: And I understood this task. Maybe today, maybe tomorrow  but it is really interesting task.  
20110330 18:02:01< mordante> AI0867, :-(
20110330 18:02:27< mordante> Sytyi, ok, no real hurry yet, just wanted to give you the task now
20110330 18:02:36< mordante> I won't be around this evening
20110330 18:03:11< Sytyi> mordante: Thanks. I think e-mail or wiki, I'm not so fluent with gna yet.  
20110330 18:03:24< mordante> Sytyi, no further questions regarding the task?
20110330 18:03:36< Sytyi> mordante: no. Good evening
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20110330 18:04:07< mordante> thanks you too and good luck with the schema and your pascal translator
20110330 18:04:21< mordante> I'm off bye
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20110330 18:30:51< janebot> Wesnoth Forums | Developers’ Discussions | Re: New #ifver/#ifnver preprocessor directive for version ch by Anonymissimus at 03-30-2011 16:27:30 http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?t=33361&p=483829#p483829
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20110330 19:12:08< tschmitz_> Is the whiteboard supposed to allow players to plan moves multiple turns in advance?
20110330 19:12:24< tschmitz_> or only moves for this current turn?
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20110330 19:18:43< Crab_> tschmitz: whiteboard persists across multiple turns
20110330 19:19:23-!- _sagi [~sagi@115.242.127.53] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
20110330 19:19:35< Crab_> tschmitz: also, the long-term (not yet implemented) plan was to allow the usage of whiteboard to see multi-unit chance-to-kill in combat, and to allow the same 'whiteboard engine' to replace DSU (delayed shroud updates)
20110330 19:20:44< tschmitz_> So for example, I might plan to queue up three attack actions for one of my units, which I will execute over the course of the next 3 turns?
20110330 19:21:00< tschmitz_> Or plan out the capture of 3 different villages over the course of the next 3 turns?
20110330 19:21:22< tschmitz_> As opposed to limiting planning to current turn only
20110330 19:22:18< tschmitz_> Or possibly even plan such an action to take place 5 turns down the road after waiting idle for the intervening time
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20110330 19:30:15< boucman> hey all
20110330 19:32:26< tschmitz_> Hey boucman
20110330 19:32:44< tschmitz_> I hear you are the guy to talk to about the whiteboard for the time being
20110330 19:33:22< boucman> yup :)
20110330 19:33:35< tschmitz_> One specific question I had
20110330 19:33:37< boucman> i'm also the guy that can call gabba if he's connected but not on IRC ;)
20110330 19:33:45< tschmitz_> Cool
20110330 19:33:58< tschmitz_> I was wondering if the whiteboard is supposed to allow planning multiple turns in advance
20110330 19:34:13< tschmitz_> or if the goal was to limit it to planning for the current turn only
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20110330 19:34:27< boucman> the question is opened to debate...
20110330 19:35:15< boucman> from a strategic planning point of view, it makes little sense to plan more than one turn in advance, there are so many changes that it's very rare for a move planned in a turn to be stilll relevant on the next one...
20110330 19:35:24< boucman> however there are two cases where it would make sense
20110330 19:36:05< boucman> 1) units that are very far from the frontlines, it would shorten the turns a bit (not much since in SP, AI turns are very small, and in MP maps are too small for it to be more usefull)
20110330 19:37:10< boucman> 2) moves planned during your oponent's turn. if there are two fronts, a player will usually play one side then the other, which mean that once the front is played, the oponent has all the info to plan on that side while the player plays on the other... not really multiple turn in advance, but close enough
20110330 19:37:21< Crab_> and, technically, it's possible to add some code to let allies view/modify your planning - that would be quite useful for 2x2 games
20110330 19:37:31< fabi> tschmitz_: hi
20110330 19:37:45< fabi> tschmitz_: wait, I am going to give you the gsoc title right now.
20110330 19:37:55< tschmitz_> fabi: Hi. OK.
20110330 19:37:59< boucman> however, it's not the most important feature... having WB be network aware would be much more usefull... not so much for allied modification, but at least allied visibility would be great...
20110330 19:38:12< tschmitz_> Definitely
20110330 19:38:31< tschmitz_> I just put a brainstorm up on my wiki page, by the way
20110330 19:38:43< tschmitz_> for the GSoC idea
20110330 19:39:02< fabi> tschmitz_: donw
20110330 19:39:05< fabi> tschmitz_: done
20110330 19:39:14< tschmitz_> but I need to cut my planning short for the moment, since I must go to class
20110330 19:39:20< tschmitz_> fabi: Thank you
20110330 19:39:28< fabi> tschmitz_: You are welcome :-)
20110330 19:40:19< tschmitz_> I'll be back in about ... err, probably 6 to 7 hours ...
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20110330 19:40:30< tschmitz_> oh well.
20110330 19:41:09< tschmitz_> boucman: Nice having a short chat with you. Bye!
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20110330 19:41:15< boucman> np, bye
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20110330 19:48:14< tanel> hi, I have no previous gsoc nor wesnoth development experience. what do you think, do I still have enough time left to apply successfully this year?
20110330 19:51:09< GeorgeSebastian> tanel, what will you do if I say no?
20110330 19:52:13< tanel> say it and you will find out:)
20110330 19:52:30< GeorgeSebastian> no
20110330 19:53:18< tanel> ok:P
20110330 19:53:26< tanel> and can you also give a reason?
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20110330 19:53:56< GeorgeSebastian> well, finally, its me who says
20110330 19:55:12< boucman> tanel: mentor here...
20110330 19:55:43< boucman> let's put it that way, you're starting with a serious disadvantage, since other people have been lurking around for some time, asking questions and contributing...
20110330 19:55:52< boucman> it's not impossible, but at that point pretty hard
20110330 19:58:05< GeorgeSebastian> tanel, and I was demonstrating that disadvantage.
20110330 19:58:52< GeorgeSebastian> today is the first time I talked in this channel :D
20110330 20:00:22< tanel> but have you done something for it before today?
20110330 20:01:11< GeorgeSebastian> no. just sitting here once in a while, for a few months now.
20110330 20:02:10< boucman> tanel: a first step is to compile the wesnoth code and contributing bugfixes and stuff like that
20110330 20:02:31< tanel> oh
20110330 20:03:53< tanel> so I should be able to contribute something with less than one week?
20110330 20:04:40< boucman> yeah... that's part of the disadvantage
20110330 20:04:47< tanel> I see
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20110330 20:08:08< tanel> do you have any ideas, are the previous contributions also neccesary in other organisations?
20110330 20:09:29< Crab_> tanel: I think that you are not in big disadvantage at the moment. there's a lots of time remaining
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20110330 20:10:02< boucman> depends, wesnoth is a big project and rather popular with students, so we can afford to have a high entry barrier, other projects arn't that lucky, so their requirements might not be that high
20110330 20:10:20< Crab_> tanel: to get you a chance of being accepted, you need to follow the usual process - pick the idea, create a wiki page, apply to google
20110330 20:10:59< Crab_> tanel: to make your application a serious one, you need to start actually doing things related to your idea. this means 'study the code, catch the mentor and talk with him, do some tasks that are suggested'
20110330 20:11:34< Crab_> tanel: overall, if you have time during the application period and are willing to devote it to code/talk/read code, this is quite doable.
20110330 20:12:02< tanel> ok, thanks
20110330 20:12:26< Crab_> tanel: also note that, actually, we decide later than 9th
20110330 20:12:51< boucman> afk for a couple of hours
20110330 20:13:11< Crab_> April 22:
20110330 20:13:11< Crab_> from the timeline: April 22      All mentors must be signed up and all student proposals matched with a mentor - 07:00 UTC
20110330 20:13:43< Crab_> so, actually, you can and should continue work and talks after the student application submission period ends.
20110330 20:14:08< Crab_> basically, the best way is to behave like you're accepted and start coding/doing your task
20110330 20:14:31< Crab_> and, after all, coding is fun)
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20110330 20:25:31< tanel> sorry, I was away some minutes
20110330 20:25:43< tanel> should I find mentor before appling?
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20110330 20:27:34< tanel> and is it better to come up with my own idea rather than picking one from list? and should I read FAQs and instructions again if I have this kind of questions or is it ok to ask these in here?
20110330 20:27:48< Crab_> picking one from the list is easier
20110330 20:28:00< Crab_> but, overall, you can propose your idea
20110330 20:28:13< Crab_> but, you will need to make sure we're interested in it
20110330 20:28:18< Crab_> so, it's better to talk and propose
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20110330 20:28:35< Crab_> and for 'your own idea', you definitely need to get an approval from the devs
20110330 20:28:46< Crab_> as for the specific mentors - no, you don't need to find a specific person
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20110330 20:29:00< Crab_> but, usually, there'll be a person who knows more about the parts of the code that you want to touch
20110330 20:29:29< Crab_> he might not be the mentor in the end, but you'll talk with him to make sure your ideas and plans are good
20110330 20:29:54< Crab_> the actual gsoc mentors for Wesnoth are boucman, crab_, fendrin, mordante
20110330 20:30:06< tanel> ok, thanks
20110330 20:30:32< Crab_> and don't fear the fact that there are others who are going for the same idea
20110330 20:30:47< Crab_> because you'll be competing with them anyway, even if you go for a different idea
20110330 20:30:52< Crab_> because the slots/mentors are limited
20110330 20:31:32< Crab_> just pick the one you're the strongest with, the one which interests you most, and (most important), the one which is actually doable during the summer
20110330 20:31:45< Crab_> i.e., you should know (or learn fast) what do you want to do and why
20110330 20:31:56< Crab_> and ask questions, if necessary
20110330 20:35:23< tanel> I have idea of making multiplayer turns more simultaneous but I am quite sure that this is too compex for one summer
20110330 20:37:55< tanel> I also guess that this topic comes up quite often as multiplayer seems to be a little bit too slow for me to be playable
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20110330 20:45:20< Crab_> yes, it's slow
20110330 20:45:33< Crab_> I agree with 'too complex for one summer', though
20110330 20:46:03< Crab_> and, it's related to the 'style' of gameplay
20110330 20:46:13< Crab_> and we are not eager to change it, since current one works for a lot of people
20110330 20:46:41< Crab_> but, if you have ideas about any improvements, you are welcome to discuss them
20110330 20:48:05< Crab_> normally, there's a lot of ideas which were frequently proposed in the past and were rejected, for one reason or another - but the situation with gsoc is a little different because the student wants to implement the suggestions himself/herself )
20110330 20:49:04< zaroth> excuse me for a short interruption, but why do some people add a single ) after their sentence?
20110330 20:49:28< zaroth> one of my friends from Russia does that and I saw it on this channel a few times
20110330 20:49:47< zaroth> is it an emoticon?
20110330 20:49:59< zaroth> (a minimalistic one, that's for sure)
20110330 20:52:59< Crab_> zaroth: yes
20110330 20:53:27< Crab_> zaroth: some people just don't like smiles when they clutter up the text, so they use mini-smiles which are not turned into graphical ones
20110330 20:54:20< Crab_> zaroth: also note that when you're speaking, it is usually better to type the nick of the speaker, as well, because it'll make his irc client notify the user that there's a new message for them
20110330 20:54:34< Crab_> especially, if you speak after a pause
20110330 20:54:56< Crab_> for example, I'm coding some perl atm, so my attention is elsewhere - but, when I see a highlighted irc, I check what's going on there.
20110330 20:55:06< zaroth> well, it wasn't directed only to you ;-) 
20110330 20:55:07< Crab_> zaroth: that way, you'll get responces faster
20110330 20:55:11< Crab_> ok
20110330 20:55:25< Crab_> but the channel is not very active at the moment
20110330 20:57:42< zaroth> Crab_: do you know where can I get this LaTeX GUI2 design document? If it's in trunk/docs/, I'm struggling to find the correct way to compile it...
20110330 20:57:56< zaroth> "make doc" from the default build/ directory doesn't work
20110330 20:58:14< Crab_> zaroth: ask mordante, he knows )
20110330 20:58:35< zaroth> Crab_: I would, but he's not here again...
20110330 20:58:42< zaroth> wesbot: seen mordante
20110330 20:58:43< wesbot> zaroth: The person with the nick mordante last spoke 2h 54m ago.  2h 53m ago they left with the message: Quit: Leaving
20110330 20:59:23< zaroth> it's nice that he disillusioned me with using combobox for now, still didn't answer my main answer, however
20110330 21:00:02< zaroth> oh well, I can just make this window have the same layout as game_inspector... I can always change it later
20110330 21:00:20< zaroth> it won't be very pretty, but should do the trick
20110330 21:03:50 * zaroth facepalms
20110330 21:04:03< zaroth> Crab_: did you mean linked_group when you said linked list yesterday?
20110330 21:05:34-!- deekay [~dk@wesnoth/developer/dragonking] has quit [Quit: deekay]
20110330 21:08:49< Crab_> yes
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20110330 21:20:46< janebot> Wesnoth Forums | Developers’ Discussions | Re: New #ifver/#ifnver preprocessor directive for version ch by shadowmaster at 03-30-2011 19:11:19 http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?t=33361&p=483847#p483847
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20110330 21:22:57< vjoe> i
20110330 21:22:58< vjoe> i
20110330 21:23:00< vjoe> hi
20110330 21:23:06< vjoe> argh my h key is not good
20110330 21:23:09< vjoe> :s
20110330 21:25:10-!- zippydaspinhead [c0981d12@gateway/web/freenode/ip.192.152.29.18] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110330 21:25:16< zippydaspinhead> Hello
20110330 21:25:28< fabi> vjoe: also your return key went berserk.
20110330 21:25:50< vjoe> nop, I was convinced i had written "hi", so I pressed return
20110330 21:25:57< vjoe> turns out I hadn't!
20110330 21:26:34< zippydaspinhead> Sorry new here; I am insterested in the GSoC
20110330 21:27:00< fabi> vjoe: :-)
20110330 21:27:07< fabi> zippydaspinhead: hello
20110330 21:27:34< fabi> zippydaspinhead: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SummerOfCodeIdeas
20110330 21:28:08< zippydaspinhead> Yes, I was interested in the animation spritesheets more specifically
20110330 21:28:47< zippydaspinhead> Is the idea to have one massive png? or a different png for every sprite?
20110330 21:29:29< zippydaspinhead> also if the second option, a different png for each terrain type or one png containing all the terrain types?
20110330 21:29:35< fabi> boucman: ^ Can you answer his questions?
20110330 21:29:58< fabi> zippydaspinhead: I think we want one file for each animation. But it's not my field.
20110330 21:30:08< zippydaspinhead> ok
20110330 21:30:24< fabi> zippydaspinhead: But you can find more information when reading the proposal.
20110330 21:30:24< zippydaspinhead> also I'm curious as to how the current method looks for the png files?
20110330 21:30:51< zippydaspinhead> Is that one pretty much choosen already?
20110330 21:31:10< zippydaspinhead> for the person doing it or will there be multiple people working on that aspect I mean
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20110330 21:31:52< fabi> There will be only one student working on it.
20110330 21:31:55< zippydaspinhead> ok
20110330 21:32:04< fabi> And no, nothing is decided yet.
20110330 21:32:21< zippydaspinhead> I figured that was the status as of now
20110330 21:32:58< fabi> Currently every single stage of an animation is a single file. 
20110330 21:33:33< Ivanovic> zippydaspinhead: things will be decided once the list of accepted projects and students is published
20110330 21:33:40< Ivanovic> which is still some time off
20110330 21:33:57< zippydaspinhead> so does it currently open each file as needed? or does it load all of them at some initilization point?
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20110330 21:36:41< zippydaspinhead> Ok, so does anyone know which code file I need to look at to try to answer these questions?
20110330 21:37:14< elias> do you know about animation-WML?
20110330 21:37:29< Ivanovic> zippydaspinhead: you should not hurry and wait for boucman
20110330 21:37:34< elias> that's how animations are specified, might work as a starting point
20110330 21:37:34< Ivanovic> he knows the animation stuff best
20110330 21:37:43< zippydaspinhead> ok
20110330 21:37:54< zippydaspinhead> sorry if I'm annoying I'm just curious
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20110330 21:38:16< Ivanovic> nah, no problem, it might just be that the ones that are able to answer your questions ain't around/reacting directly
20110330 21:38:25< Ivanovic> so a highlight for them might help
20110330 21:42:50< zippydaspinhead> ok sorry more questions, but I'm looking at your EasyCoding page and wondering about how the whole patch system works and how I can start to work on one or some of those so I can get my feet wet so to speak
20110330 21:43:29< Ivanovic> the easiest way to get started is by getting an svn checkout
20110330 21:43:34< Ivanovic> make this compile and work
20110330 21:44:07< Ivanovic> once that is done you can start hacking
20110330 21:44:35< Ivanovic> the easiest way to get a patch out of the work is using "svn diff > file.patch"
20110330 21:44:46< zippydaspinhead> ok
20110330 21:44:54< zippydaspinhead> thanks I'll start messing around a bit
20110330 21:45:11< Ivanovic> yeah, messing around is the best way to get started
20110330 21:45:33< Ivanovic> and the easy coding list is a really good point, though you should ask about the parts you want to work on to make sure that they are still valid
20110330 21:45:47< Ivanovic> (sometimes the page can be a little outdated)
20110330 21:46:38< fabi> zippydaspinhead: I have talked another student through the process of setting up the eclipse ide for developing wesnoth's c++. You can find it in the logs if you prefer that IDE.
20110330 21:47:34< fabi> zippydaspinhead: That was yesterday iirc. My nickname at that time was most likely "fendrin".
20110330 21:47:40< Ivanovic> zippydaspinhead: getting stuff to compile and work nicely can be really easy or freaking difficult with many steps in between
20110330 21:48:00< zippydaspinhead> I have visual studio 2008 for school at the moment.  It is what I am most familiar with
20110330 21:48:05< Ivanovic> OUTSCH
20110330 21:48:07< rubbs> zippydaspinhead: since I know you IRL I can tell you you'd likely find eclipse the best IDE for your needs.
20110330 21:48:07< Ivanovic> you are in windows
20110330 21:48:10< rubbs> he is
20110330 21:48:12< Ivanovic> this is, uhm, challenging
20110330 21:48:20< zippydaspinhead> Though I have done some stuff in Eclipse
20110330 21:48:23< rubbs> haha. I've been trying to get him on linux for years
20110330 21:48:43< Ivanovic> rubbs: wesnoth might make him switch since setting it up to compile on windows can be a real mess
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20110330 21:49:04< timotei> well, thanks to Crab_, compiling wesnoth on windows isn't anymore hard :)
20110330 21:49:05< timotei> zippydaspinhead: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/CompilingWesnothOnWindows
20110330 21:49:20< Ivanovic> timotei: hmm, i remember the old days around/shortly before 0.9
20110330 21:49:51< Ivanovic> when the package of dlls/includes that i created was used for *years*
20110330 21:49:57< CIA-89> shadowmaster * r49069 /branches/umcmg/: Close 'umcmg' branch
20110330 21:50:11< Ivanovic> (IIRC yogihh still used those for 1.2.x any maybe even 1.4.x, not 100% sure)
20110330 21:50:22< timotei> :D
20110330 21:50:23< Ivanovic> whenever he tried to change some tiny things, it would break badly
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20110330 21:51:25< Disruption> Hi room
20110330 21:51:25< rubbs> zippydaspinhead: call me tonight. I can walk you through a dualboot install if you'd like
20110330 21:51:38< zippydaspinhead> Might have to
20110330 21:51:50< zippydaspinhead> I think I still have the ISO on here somewhere
20110330 21:51:53< Disruption> Boucman: Hi! I finally find you :)
20110330 21:52:04< timotei> Disruption: and he is away for the moment :P
20110330 21:52:07< Ivanovic> zippydaspinhead: trust me, developing c++ stuff on linux is a freaking lot more comfortable than under windows
20110330 21:52:11< Disruption> ._.
20110330 21:52:17< Ivanovic> installing the deps and compiler, one command away
20110330 21:52:18< zippydaspinhead> I believe it
20110330 21:52:31< zippydaspinhead> I just haven't taken the plunge yet...
20110330 21:52:45< rubbs> Ivanovic: I'd agree. I went to the same school zippydaspinhead did, so I'm familiar with what he knows... c++ dev on Linux is way more fun.
20110330 21:53:04< shadowmaster> Ivanovic: depends on the distribution
20110330 21:53:17< Ivanovic> though what i heard is that at least the debugger in visual studio is lovely
20110330 21:53:33< shadowmaster> I don't think those that don't use apt have something as pretty as $ sudo apt-get build-dep wesnoth1.8
20110330 21:53:34< Ivanovic> shadowmaster: i am talking about decent systems that don't seperate between normal and dev versions
20110330 21:53:38< Ivanovic> stuff like gentoo or archlinux
20110330 21:54:07< Ivanovic> shadowmaster: it is still just one commandline to get the stuff installed since you can use several packages
20110330 21:54:09< Ivanovic> ;)
20110330 21:54:22< zippydaspinhead> I do prefer the debugger in VS over Eclipse, at least from my current experience
20110330 21:54:39< rubbs> Ivanovic: VS debugger is fairly nice, until it's not. It can be missleading sometimes.
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20110330 21:55:11< Ivanovic> no idea, never used the one in VS
20110330 21:55:36< Ivanovic> i prefer plain linux with some good commandline tools and a decent text editor (like eg kate) to do the coding
20110330 21:55:41< rubbs> Intellisense is good most of the time too, but eclipse does that well enough.
20110330 21:55:52< rubbs> vim ftw!
20110330 21:56:08 * rubbs puts on his helmet for the editor war about to start.
20110330 21:56:14< Ivanovic> ah, vim for the normal smaller stuff in the terminal
20110330 21:56:41< Ivanovic> but for larger, several thousand lines of code files i prefer kate
20110330 21:57:25< rubbs> fair 'nough.
20110330 21:57:33< rubbs> I got so used to vim I can't give it up.
20110330 21:57:43< rubbs> but I'm more of a sysadmin by trade than a dev.
20110330 21:57:54< zaroth> Ivanovic: just like here, but KDevelop won my heart over Kate for bigger projects (like wesnoth) with easier codebase navigation
20110330 21:57:57< Ivanovic> for normal script changes and stuff like this i tend to use vim, too
20110330 21:58:17< rubbs> nod
20110330 21:58:26< zaroth> for projects with 3-20 files kate is more than enough
20110330 21:58:33< Ivanovic> plain ssh to the machine, do the changes, save, done
20110330 21:58:42< Ivanovic> zaroth: jepp
20110330 21:59:32< Ivanovic> rubbs: though with some larger stuff i just use sshfs and kate, speed is really fine for this (currently doing this for work on my thesis where the required stuff for building and running is only available on the uni systems)
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20110330 22:01:14< rubbs> fair 'nough
20110330 22:02:00< zaroth> mordante: isn't the current name of [column] in GUI2 a bit misleading? IMHO they're rather more like [row] and [cell] (just like in html), than [row] and [column], unless I'm misunderstanding something
20110330 22:02:35< Ivanovic> (its too annoying to code the stuff locally, upload it to the version control, update it on the uni machine, compile and run there, so much better to do this stuff directly in the filesystem there)
20110330 22:02:47< Ivanovic> is something like this possible at all with windows?
20110330 22:02:48< Ivanovic> ^^
20110330 22:03:01< zippydaspinhead> technically... yes
20110330 22:03:12< zippydaspinhead> is it annoying
20110330 22:03:17-!- MeccaGod [majs@h14n4fls31o279.telia.com] has quit []
20110330 22:03:19< zippydaspinhead> technically... yes
20110330 22:03:21< zaroth> Ivanovic: you run your wesnoth over ssh X session?
20110330 22:03:27< Ivanovic> no
20110330 22:03:46< Ivanovic> wesnoth is not made for ssh, too graphics intense
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20110330 22:04:09< zaroth> well, when I read "and run there", I was thinking you run it on your uni machine from house
20110330 22:04:21< Ivanovic> (in general i think that ssh -X is too slow for my needs, though usable)
20110330 22:04:34< Ivanovic> ah, i run *uni* work on those machines
20110330 22:04:39< Ivanovic> plain commandline stuff
20110330 22:05:01< Ivanovic> working on something for a compiler for embedded systems
20110330 22:06:18< zippydaspinhead> Sorry to get back to more general questions again
20110330 22:06:37< zippydaspinhead> but I have two quick ones before I return to the world of classes
20110330 22:06:39< Ivanovic> feel free to do so
20110330 22:06:57< zippydaspinhead> I can write and submit more than one proposal right?
20110330 22:07:00< zippydaspinhead> and also
20110330 22:07:07< Ivanovic> yes, you can
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20110330 22:07:18< Ivanovic> *but* a well done proposal requires a freaking amount of work
20110330 22:07:52< zippydaspinhead> For someone who hasn't done any dev on a large project like this, hmm how do I word this, how much help is availible?
20110330 22:08:09< zippydaspinhead> it seems like a good amount and I don't mean can someone hold my hand the whole way
20110330 22:08:25< Ivanovic> to see a freaking crazy example, check what Crab_ submitted two years ago: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SummerOfCodeProposal_AI_Improvement_Crab
20110330 22:08:27< zippydaspinhead> but I do feel slightly (read as a good deal) out of my depth
20110330 22:08:45< Ivanovic> you get the help you need when asking
20110330 22:09:04< zippydaspinhead> Ok thanks
20110330 22:09:17< Ivanovic> but you have to know ourself when to ask
20110330 22:09:26< Ivanovic> (can't answer questions never asked)
20110330 22:09:36< zippydaspinhead> I'll try to get some easy work done here this week and weekend before I put together a proposal
20110330 22:09:56< zippydaspinhead> oh yes I realize that and I'm not afraid to ask
20110330 22:10:14< zippydaspinhead> Just not sure how easy it is to annoy people
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20110330 22:10:34< Ivanovic> we are used to questions, especially during soc
20110330 22:10:48< rubbs> generally with Open source projects, as long as you are willing to actually research beforehand people won't get annoyed
20110330 22:10:55< rubbs> generally being the operative word there.
20110330 22:11:23< rubbs> that's been my experience at least
20110330 22:11:30< zippydaspinhead> Alright cool beans.  I hope I can get some stuff done this week
20110330 22:11:36< Sytyi> Crab_: hi. If yo have some time, please look through my timeline. I really need some advices. 
20110330 22:11:46< zippydaspinhead> rubbs: I'll call you later tonight probably.
20110330 22:11:55< Crab_> Sytyi: tomorrow in the morning, ~12:30
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20110330 22:12:05< Sytyi> Crab_: okay))
20110330 22:12:32-!- timotei [~timotei@wesnoth/developer/timotei] has quit [Quit: SIGKILL]
20110330 22:13:03< rubbs> Ivanovic: thanks for helping zippy. I'm the one who tried to push him to trying for the soc stuff
20110330 22:13:23< rubbs> I don't know enough about wesnoth myself to be of any real help to him, but I'm trying to be his liason to FOSS stuff.
20110330 22:14:22< zaroth> Ivanovic: as for Crab_ proposal... wow. It's even more impressive that whole this proposal code section was written during the application phase, not during GSoC, as I initially suspected...
20110330 22:14:37< Ivanovic> this proposal was application time
20110330 22:14:54< Ivanovic> but before i met him at wesdem i had the impression that Crab_ is really inhuman
20110330 22:15:18< Ivanovic> zaroth: and yeah, his proposal is the extreme example
20110330 22:15:28< Ivanovic> and "smaller" ones were accepted, too
20110330 22:16:02< Ivanovic> but some "i want to do ABC because it is cool" won't get the job done, some more flash has to be given to the rough proposal we provide
20110330 22:16:11< Ivanovic> s/flash/flesh
20110330 22:16:44< zaroth> Ivanovic: it seems I have to go to the wesdem, then, I still have this impression - he seems to be nearly 24/7 online answering my questions...
20110330 22:17:07< zaroth> yeah, I just felt a sudden urge to give more detail to my proposal page
20110330 22:17:11< Ivanovic> zaroth: at least his outer appearance is human
20110330 22:17:32< rubbs> Cylon?
20110330 22:17:46< Ivanovic> rubbs: more T2000 like
20110330 22:17:47< Ivanovic> ;)
20110330 22:17:58< zaroth> let's hint atomicbomb at this, he seems to like spying details about wesnoth devs ;-)
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20110330 22:19:55< Ivanovic> zaroth: but wesdem is open to everyone, so anyone can see and meet wesnoth people there
20110330 22:20:13< Ivanovic> okay, some folks think that the event is called fosdem, but they are clearly wrong
20110330 22:20:35< zaroth> Ivanovic: well, I'm not suggesting that I'm trying to become a wesnoth dev only to get access to fosdem :P
20110330 22:21:06< Ivanovic> zaroth: hey, it would be a cool reason!
20110330 22:21:20< Ivanovic> some "i want to be on this pic" reason: http://forums.wesnoth.org/download/file.php?id=48633&mode=view
20110330 22:22:04< zaroth> ugh, somebody messed up with labeling thespaceinvader on this photo
20110330 22:22:19< Ivanovic> huh?
20110330 22:22:39< zaroth> since all the other labels are people-centered, I thought thespaceinvader was absent or something, since his label is centered over empty space on blackboard
20110330 22:22:51< zaroth> saying "source compiled" or something
20110330 22:23:53 * Ivanovic won't say that tsi was the one reworking parts of the image (to reduce the effect of the projector on our faces) and label stuff
20110330 22:25:03< rubbs> well I should get back to work :/ I may be back on later. Thanks everyone.
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20110330 22:29:04< Sytyi> Ivanovic: sorry for interruption. but to appear on that foto is a really cool reason. :-)
20110330 22:29:17< Ivanovic> interruption?
20110330 22:29:29< Ivanovic> this is/was a "free for all" conversation!
20110330 22:30:08< Nephro> LoL, is when something uncomplete works totally fine, because of a coincidence, but you start thinking about not completing the task, cause it looks done
20110330 22:30:22< Sytyi> three of my class are going to try GSoC this year. We joked that the reason is T-Shirt 
20110330 22:30:40< Sytyi> but now I know the more cool reason )))
20110330 22:30:40< Ivanovic> Sytyi: that *IS* the reason
20110330 22:31:08< Ivanovic> Sytyi: in fact: the print on the shirts should read "coding for t-shirt"
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20110330 22:34:27< Sytyi> Ivanovic: and one of the little cool thing is that I'm long haired gui too. As fendrin on that foto, but with boucman's glasses. I REALLY WANT TO BE THERE. :-)
20110330 22:35:38< Nephro> Ivanovic, what did you actually do on that forum(congress? / party?)
20110330 22:36:08< Ivanovic> Sytyi: mordantes hair is longer!
20110330 22:36:21< Ivanovic> Nephro: it is all noted on the wiki page
20110330 22:36:35< Ivanovic> http://wiki.wesnoth.org/Fosdem2011
20110330 22:36:36< Sytyi> Ivanovic: :-(
20110330 22:36:55< Sytyi> Ivanovic: They dont grow :(((
20110330 22:37:10< boucman> and back...
20110330 22:37:13< Nephro> Ivanovic, I am scared to open my browser now, when I compile and debug wesnoth... It all became horribly unstable lately :(
20110330 22:37:16< boucman> catching up on the logs now...
20110330 22:37:33< Ivanovic> Nephro: uhm, okay, then store the url for later
20110330 22:37:40< Ivanovic> Nephro: it is by far too much to say right now
20110330 22:37:41< Disruption> yay
20110330 22:37:42< Ivanovic> ;)
20110330 22:37:49< Nephro> Ivanovic, kay ;)
20110330 22:38:11< Ivanovic> in addition to what is mentioned on the wiki page we had lots of fun talking about *whatever*
20110330 22:38:18< Ivanovic> (off topic stuff, too!)
20110330 22:41:41< automagic> I have just updated my proposal wiki page: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SoC2011_Automagic
20110330 22:42:26-!- zookeeper [~l@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has quit []
20110330 22:43:56< Nephro> automagic, it seems you forgot to answer 3.6 in your questionnaire
20110330 22:44:12< Qbunia> hey Nephro 
20110330 22:44:20< Qbunia> i se you also fancy to work on AI 
20110330 22:44:22< Qbunia> just like me ;> 
20110330 22:44:45-!- Crab_ [~Crab@wesnoth/developer/crab] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org]
20110330 22:45:20< Nephro> heya, yeah that's my way to have fun ;]
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20110330 22:45:28< Qbunia> mm 
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20110330 22:45:32< Qbunia> so we have to compete 
20110330 22:45:35< Qbunia> who will take that seat :D
20110330 22:46:00< boucman> and done reading... Disruption: yyou were looking for me ?
20110330 22:46:42< Nephro> As far as I know more than one person can get a proposal to the same idea, but it will be distributed between them probably... Or one will get a modificated one
20110330 22:47:00< Qbunia> mm 
20110330 22:47:09< Qbunia> Crab told me that on 2 ideas there iwll me 2 persons 
20110330 22:47:10< Qbunia> on other only 1 
20110330 22:47:19< Qbunia> and there is probability that to 1 idea there will be 0 
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20110330 22:47:39< Qbunia> he didnt tell to which idea there will be 2 students
20110330 22:47:48< boucman> historical perspective :
20110330 22:48:02< boucman> so far for wesnoth it happened once to have two students on similar proposal
20110330 22:48:07< boucman> but 
20110330 22:48:28< boucman> 1) the proposal were in the same area (AI) but that area was huge enough to hold two students
20110330 22:48:50< Nephro> Well, I think it depends more on, how students show themselves... If someone is very good, but his idea is bad, he will probably get a proposal to a different idea... At least that would be wise... Since there is no point taking a weak student for an idea, when there's a stronger one without one :)
20110330 22:48:51< boucman> 2) the proposal were disjointed enough that one student would never have to wait or work with the other
20110330 22:49:01< boucman> so for all practical purpose these were two proposals
20110330 22:49:21< Qbunia> ah okey ;> 
20110330 22:49:33< boucman> I would be very suprised if we ever took two students on the same proposal, even if the proposal is large enough to hold two students : too many potential problems
20110330 22:49:34< Qbunia> thx for info
20110330 22:50:08< Disruption> boucman: Hi, I've been looking for you :)
20110330 22:50:18< boucman> :)
20110330 22:50:25< Qbunia> so we will see how it gonna be !:P
20110330 22:51:49< Disruption> boucman: I sent my proposal for the SMC, and after that I noticed about the attention flag and about QCT, so I didn't write anything in the Wesnoth wiki
20110330 22:51:57< Disruption> although i sent the google summer code app
20110330 22:52:47 * Nephro kept staring at an excel spreadsheet for 2 minutes, thinking "what the hell have I pressed in msvc"
20110330 22:52:57< Nephro> i think I need some sleep
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20110330 22:53:31< boucman> ok, so you have a google application but no wiki page that's it ?
20110330 22:53:43< Disruption> yes, as the idea seems to be on hold
20110330 22:53:47< Disruption> I wanted to talk to you before
20110330 22:55:00< boucman> ok, yes... A good proposal can still work on that project, because we have a real need for it, but it has to be good, with clear ideas of what needs to be done
20110330 22:55:23< boucman> there are existing tools that are a good basis and solve part of the problem, but there is still work to do.
20110330 22:55:42< Disruption> I have some ideas, but I don't know if that's what you are looking for
20110330 22:55:53< Disruption> The tool you linked seems just like a simplified subversion client, more or less
20110330 22:56:06< Disruption> still scary/too technical for graphic artists or not technical people to use
20110330 22:56:28< Disruption> I thought about a simpler program, with friendly interface, probably in java so it's look and feel adapts to host system and feels even more like another one of your programs
20110330 22:56:36< Disruption> so potential artists, musicians, etc etc dont' flee
20110330 22:56:42< Disruption> but it's just a bunch of ideas
20110330 22:56:44< boucman> ok, sounds good so far
20110330 22:57:04< Disruption> The fact is giving the needed options, and as little config needed as possible
20110330 22:57:38< Disruption> so they can just open the app, put in their user/password, or anonymous if that is permited somehow, and upload the type of content they want
20110330 22:57:38< boucman> yes, that sounds good, i'll have a quick look at your google proposal
20110330 22:57:48< Disruption> sent automatically to the correct svn folder
20110330 22:57:50< Disruption> for revision or whatever
20110330 22:58:01< automagic> Nephro: Thanks, I haven't noticed that.
20110330 22:58:10< Disruption> boucman: Thanks :)
20110330 22:58:21< Disruption> the proposal is not very deeply explained, it talks about technical details
20110330 22:58:37< Disruption> like designing using model view controller, using java for being multiplatform, free and etc, and all that things
20110330 22:58:58< boucman> Disruption: ok, but by reading it you won't have to repeat all that on IRC
20110330 22:59:28< boucman> btw, what I say about wiki still stands, please create a wiki page at some point, i'll link it in the proposal if you can't edit it yourself
20110330 22:59:49< Disruption> Yes, no problem with that. I just wanted to check if the project was still posible before writing the page
20110330 22:59:53< Disruption> I'll do it today
20110330 23:00:37< Nephro> boucman, I had a question about the wiki page. Do I understand correct that students need a page where they will mark their progress during work? Is that the same page we use for proposals?
20110330 23:00:52< Ivanovic> Qbunia: *nothing* is sure regarding mapping of students and tasks
20110330 23:01:01< Ivanovic> Qbunia: we don't even know how many slots we will get in the end
20110330 23:01:20< Qbunia> ok mm so 
20110330 23:01:26< Ivanovic> everything depends on the students that we got, the projects they propose and our impression of how things will work out in those combinations
20110330 23:01:26< Qbunia> i have to do my best with proposal 
20110330 23:01:39< boucman> Nephro: no, that's a good habit we have used in previous years, but it's not mandatory, and even if it were you don't need to worry about it until you are accepted (you need to provide a timeline, but that's a different thing)
20110330 23:01:43< Ivanovic> what is known is that we will have significantly more proposals and ideas than projects
20110330 23:01:55< Ivanovic> s/projects/slots
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20110330 23:02:48< Ivanovic> and yeah, in the end it *can* happen that we take >1 proposal from one area simply because the students and proposed projects "just fit"
20110330 23:02:53< Nephro> boucman, well I provided a small 3x3 table as a timeline, Crab_ said it was fine, but I really don't know what else to write there, since the amounts of work are pretty vague for each stage.
20110330 23:04:58< boucman> Nephro: this has happened in previous year, and it's fine with us if you have to readapt the timeline during SoC, the point of the timeline is also to force you to order and detail your project, to get organized etc... so try to do hypothesis about what you will need to code and how much time it will take, it's ok if it doesn't turn out as expected, and we will comment on how much time you devote to a task compared to what we would consider n
20110330 23:06:09< boucman> Disruption: your first step in your project is to design the view part... i.e the GUI... you should try to do some mockups with some type of graphical UI designer, that would explain how you see the tool way better than any description
20110330 23:06:51< boucman> at this point it would be fine to use a non-java tool, the point is more to show what sort of interface you imagine and what aspect of CMS you plan to show or hide to the user
20110330 23:07:52< boucman> basically, the problem of the CMS project is not so much the coding than the understanding of the project and the design of a tool that hides just the right amount of complexity to the particular type of user we are targetting
20110330 23:08:24< Disruption> It's ok to use a java tool, most IDE's offer a good GUI design tool
20110330 23:09:02< boucman> we need to see in your proposal that it's an aspect you have thought about and what general idea you have about it. it's ok if you have holes in your proposal if we have a general idea of how you see it that reassures us about how the holes will be plucked eventually
20110330 23:09:23< boucman> (and I don't know the java world that well, but yes, it's logical that java would have such tools)
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20110330 23:15:09< Disruption> yes, it has some nice tools to not lose a ton of time :)
20110330 23:15:32< boucman> hehe
20110330 23:15:43< boucman> well it's also great tools to do UI mockups :P
20110330 23:15:48< Disruption> yep :)
20110330 23:16:40< boucman> Disruption: once you have ui mockups you're happy with, ping me and we'll discuss some more (or ping other devs, works too)
20110330 23:17:23< Disruption> ok, I'll write the wiki thing first :)
20110330 23:18:46< Nephro> boucman, and probably the last question today: how much hours a day are students intended to work?
20110330 23:19:27< boucman> during GSoC ? it should be the equivalent of a normal full-time job :)
20110330 23:20:00< Nephro> 40 hours a week then? And weekends free?
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20110330 23:20:52< Ivanovic> Nephro: you are free to schedule the stuff yourself
20110330 23:21:36< Ivanovic> some are able to get the stuff done in 10h per week (but spend 80h because it is fun!), others need exactly 40h per week, yet others need 80h
20110330 23:22:39< Sytyi> Ivanovic: it depends on inspiration, i think
20110330 23:22:51< Ivanovic> Sytyi: more than just inspiration
20110330 23:23:02< Ivanovic> it is also a matter of additional problems you encounter
20110330 23:23:05< Ivanovic> as well as your abilities
20110330 23:23:17< Sytyi> Ivanovic: code code code, tired, get bike went to beach, and then code code code )
20110330 23:23:47< Sytyi> Ivanovic: offcourse, additional problems make a lot of problems 
20110330 23:25:13< zaroth> mordante: why is it called http://devdocs.wesnoth.org/layout\_algorihm.html instead of "algorithm"? ;-) (I just see typos instantly, so expect some more corrections, but the GUI2 design document is a great help so far overall, thanks!)
20110330 23:25:29< Ivanovic> Sytyi: and in your list it all depends on how long you stay at the beach with your bike
20110330 23:25:42< Ivanovic> if you stay there for two weeks, you have to play catchup afterwards
20110330 23:25:44< Ivanovic> ;)
20110330 23:27:07< Nephro> Argh this is impossible, I hate this debugger... It just leaves the function when I try to step in an if block... this is so horrible
20110330 23:27:55< Sytyi> Ivanovic: That is music to my heart. Two  weeks on the bank of the Dniper, only I and my bike.
20110330 23:28:57< Sytyi> Ivanovic: But my laptop is my  drug. I dont know where I will  be coding, maybe on the bank of Dnieper, but coding, coding and coding. $-)
20110330 23:29:06< Sytyi> Ivanovic: * ;-)
20110330 23:29:12< Ivanovic> hehehe
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20110330 23:31:17< Sytyi> Ivanovic: I so used to travel in expeditions with my parents. The only thibg stops me is electricity less in the forest tent camp
20110330 23:31:54< Ivanovic> hehehe
20110330 23:32:24< Ivanovic> you need some small, long lasting device like this one: http://openpandora.org/
20110330 23:32:26< Ivanovic> ;)
20110330 23:33:34< Sytyi> Ivanovic: my friends told me I'm ill. I never go somewhere from home without laptop. ;-)
20110330 23:33:35< Ivanovic> okay, for compiling wesnoth it is *not* usable! (honestly, a full recompile of wesnoth takes a *long* time even on my normal laptop with a core2duo with 1.5GHz, some 30 to 40min IIRC)
20110330 23:33:52< Nephro> Kind of expensive... throw in another 500 usd and macbook it is
20110330 23:34:10< Ivanovic> Nephro: it is a lovely toy in the size of a NDS
20110330 23:34:25< Nephro> yeah, but, come on 500$... nah
20110330 23:34:28< Disruption> boucman: I wrote a first version of the wiki page, with the main things. I don't really know how extent the text has to be or what exactly I'm supposed to write in it
20110330 23:34:39< Ivanovic> and i don't think that you can watch a wesnoth game via wifi for some 10h with the macbook
20110330 23:34:53< boucman> Disruption: URL plz ?
20110330 23:34:59< Ivanovic> or 10h of snes gaming with decent controls
20110330 23:35:03< Disruption> http://wiki.wesnoth.org/Disruption_Simple_Content_Manager
20110330 23:35:05< Ivanovic> plus: this thing is *small*
20110330 23:35:18< Disruption> I just filled the template
20110330 23:35:22< Disruption> following the instruction
20110330 23:35:33< Disruption> but it feels a bit short. I suppose I'll find things to add soon
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20110330 23:36:11< boucman> Disruption: ok, things to do 
20110330 23:36:23< Nephro> Ivanovic, it'll harm eyes too :( Well, dunno.. I don't say it's bad... But overpriced imho
20110330 23:36:30< boucman> 1) the questionnaire, it's pretty straightforward, and it's usefull to us
20110330 23:36:43< Ivanovic> Nephro: honestly, the screen is brilliant
20110330 23:36:45< Disruption> ok, I'll add it :)
20110330 23:37:06< Ivanovic> and it is a handheld device like a gameboy, so it is closer to your face than the laptop
20110330 23:37:16< Disruption> my email and phone can be omitted right?
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20110330 23:37:48< Ivanovic> to get an idea *how* small it is, just compare the pic of a coke can, a 12" thinkpad and the pandora: http://forums.wesnoth.org/download/file.php?id=48633&mode=view
20110330 23:37:51< boucman> 2) that's a good overview, but we need to see your thought process, the best way, as stated earlier would be UI mockups for the main actions (update rep, initial checkout, commit, conflict, branch changing) when you engineer these mockups all sorts of questions will arise for you to solve and discuss in the text
20110330 23:38:01< boucman> and that's the part we are most interested in
20110330 23:38:11< Disruption> ok
20110330 23:38:23< Disruption> I'll work on the mockups first then :)
20110330 23:38:37< boucman> Disruption: yes, you can skip these, you might want to add them (at least the email) to the google proposal so only mentors can read it...
20110330 23:38:44< Disruption> Yes
20110330 23:38:52< Disruption> in the google code summer proposal my email and phone were filled up
20110330 23:39:10< Disruption> I just added the questionnaire with that 2 answers omitted
20110330 23:40:44< zaroth> mordante: you _really_ love to write *really* long sentences, don't you?
20110330 23:40:50< Ivanovic> Disruption: in general it is fine to basically fill everything of the questionaire just in the google tracker but the project details which are on the wiki page
20110330 23:41:13< zaroth> mordante: I hope you won't mind adding a few full stops here and there...
20110330 23:41:13< Disruption> I filled everything everywhere. Better safe than sorry =D
20110330 23:41:37< Ivanovic> zaroth: he tries to improve his german and it is sooooo easy to write long sentences in german (that later on basically noone will understand when reading the first time)
20110330 23:41:38< Nephro> How is it even possible? I've set three breakpoint on three lines... The programm reaches the first breakpoint, and never reaches the other two, despite the fact that there is no return statement anywhere near... The programm just continues from the place that called the function anyway
20110330 23:42:01< Ivanovic> Nephro: sometimes debuggers behave strangely...
20110330 23:42:14< zaroth> Ivanovic: that's why I am correcting this document as I'm reading it
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20110330 23:43:00< Ivanovic> a friend of mine is currently working on her thesis which requires heavy use of a debugger (she uses gdb) since she basically tries to break programs by manipulating memory (and find ways around such breakages, to at least detect them or even correct them)
20110330 23:43:08< Ivanovic> zaroth: this is great!
20110330 23:43:20< zaroth> I hope my patch will get accepted, as readability of this document is quite low sometimes (I once had to reread a sentence thrice to understand it ;-) ) - to help future readers of GUI2 design doc
20110330 23:44:01< Ivanovic> Nephro: you can trust me that she was swearing *really* badly at times because gdb did not want to do what she wanted
20110330 23:45:11< Crab_> Nephro: for example, if you've got some optimizations disabled, the debugger might behave strangely
20110330 23:45:31< Ivanovic> anyway, time for some sleep, n8
20110330 23:45:48< Crab_> Nephro: printf-style debugging is more reliable (well, debugger is useful to get a stack trace or to find a value of a variable or two...)
20110330 23:45:48< Nephro> hmmm... well, I restarted the studio... If the behaviour continues I am gonna try... crying...
20110330 23:45:55< Nephro> gn Ivanovic 
20110330 23:45:55< zaroth> "First we make the widget then the screen in order to test the widget, this happens often when you need to add a new widget that you need it for a new dialogue so you need to create both for testing. "
20110330 23:46:06< zaroth> sorry, couldn't resist pasting it ;-)
20110330 23:46:27< Ivanovic> zaroth: makes more sense if you start to think german
20110330 23:46:51< Ivanovic> (though mordante is from the netherlands, which adds some strange extras besides being a mixture of german and english)
20110330 23:46:54< zaroth> Ivanovic: yeah, I once caught mordante misusing "as" for "than" when comparing two things
20110330 23:47:01< zaroth> Ivanovic: this makes sense since "than" is "als" in german
20110330 23:47:21< Disruption> Crab_: Printf+fflush(stdout) == Best Debugging sometimes :D
20110330 23:47:38< Disruption> At least to quickly localize WHERE the program dies awfully and the raw values
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20110330 23:47:45< Disruption> without setting a ton of breackpoints
20110330 23:47:53< Disruption> although it's not the cleanest way though
20110330 23:47:57< Crab_> Disruption: yes, print something, then meditate on the output...
20110330 23:48:07< Nephro> Crab_, maybe you know how "if (f == aspect_factory::get_list().end()){" can make a function return? Exceptions?
20110330 23:48:16 * Ivanovic prefers to just print stuff that actually makes sense to have!
20110330 23:48:19< zaroth> Disruption: in wesnoth you actually have a logger class to do it, you may want to look at it, it's really cool :-)
20110330 23:48:36< Disruption> zaroth: Yes, i saw the logger class :)
20110330 23:48:54< Crab_> Nephro: no, it shouldn't. 'catch throw' will make gdb break on exceptions, anyway
20110330 23:49:20< Crab_> Nephro: but this might be somewhat-templated code... technicallly, this can give gdb some troubles.
20110330 23:49:41< Nephro> but I am not using gdb... I use msvc
20110330 23:50:00< Crab_> ok, don't know how to make it break on exception, then )
20110330 23:50:12< zaroth> Crab_: by the (templates) way, I saw shadowmaster complaining about their use being guilty for increase in compile time of wesnoth
20110330 23:50:15< Ivanovic> Crab_: since it is just checking if f is identical to the iterator that points to the end of get_list i don't see much template room
20110330 23:50:21< zaroth> is it really that big of an issue?
20110330 23:50:40< Crab_> zaroth: yes, I saw it, too. well, I think that the header interdependency is more serious issue
20110330 23:50:50< Ivanovic> zaroth: templates are a powerful tool that can do lots of stuff
20110330 23:51:02< Ivanovic> a major downside of templates is what happens to compiler error output
20110330 23:51:03< Crab_> zaroth: for example, once, adding a new dialog or a new log domain caused almost entire wesnoth to be recompiled
20110330 23:51:11< Nephro> the best part of all this is that that line worked fine and I didn't touch it... but the I went on and it just stopped working... /me cries himself to sleep... good night guys
20110330 23:51:11< Ivanovic> they make it unreadable (to most humans)
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20110330 23:52:53< zaroth> Crab_: sounds like you think there's area for redesigning and removing the dependencies...
20110330 23:53:16< Crab_> zaroth: you can try, it's an enlightening experience
20110330 23:53:20< Ivanovic> zaroth: you have to read it differently, he already had a look at some stuff
20110330 23:53:23< Crab_> zaroth: there is area for that
20110330 23:53:28< Ivanovic> removed some easier cases
20110330 23:53:38< Ivanovic> but some are, uhm, more difficult to solve
20110330 23:53:39< Crab_> Ivanovic: not only me, lots of people did. silene, mordante..
20110330 23:53:47< Ivanovic> Crab_: yeah
20110330 23:54:17< Crab_> zaroth: but, more importantly, we have lots of dependencies in the wesnoth's layers of engine code
20110330 23:54:18< Ivanovic> and in the end it all comes down to "the wesnoth sources are just freaking large and referencing each other a lot"
20110330 23:55:12< Crab_> zaroth: and there's huge ( >= enough for gsoc) room for improvement in the game engine, and in it's separation from presentation logic and other stuff
20110330 23:55:44< Crab_> zaroth: for example, check the dependencies stuff wrt ai headers
20110330 23:55:59< Disruption> dependencies are nothing after you have worked with moodle or joomla code :P
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20110330 23:57:20< Crab_> Disruption: I've worked with moodle code a bit - luckily, you don't need to compile php before using it
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20110330 23:57:56< Disruption> Crab_: Yes, that's one thing I love about php, not compiling and very easy bug tracking
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20110330 23:58:06< zaroth> Crab_: yeah, probably... but it sounds like being acquainted with the codebase can help here a whole *lot* more compared to the other projects, so maybe next year ;-)
20110330 23:59:04< Crab_> zaroth: trying to cleanup the mess with dependencies will quickly make you familiar with the code :))
20110330 23:59:18< Disruption> Crab_:That, or kill you, whatever comes first.
20110330 23:59:28< Disruption> Looking at that much code can be bad for health
20110330 23:59:46< KB1PKL> Balance coding with careful sleep, water, and food!
20110330 23:59:55< Crab_> Disruption: wesnoth is quite small
--- Log closed Thu Mar 31 00:00:03 2011