--- Log opened Tue Mar 01 00:00:12 2011
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20110301 18:58:54< keb> "The Battle for Wesnoth is a Free, turn-based tactical strategy game with a high fantasy theme,"
20110301 18:59:14< keb> what would a "low fantasy theme" be?
20110301 18:59:58< VurtualRuler98> uh.
20110301 19:00:33< VurtualRuler98> Low prominence of fantastical elements.
20110301 19:01:09< VurtualRuler98> Taking place in the "real" world, or a similar analogue.
20110301 19:01:24< keb> oh like "Reality" tv
20110301 19:01:57< VurtualRuler98> No, more like.
20110301 19:02:20< Gambit> keb: like having five fairies living in an otherwise realistic Manhattan.
20110301 19:02:21< VurtualRuler98> Heroes running about in real locations, and then presumably some vague threshold of wizards-per-minute.
20110301 19:02:35< VurtualRuler98> Too many wizards! Genre change!
20110301 19:02:52< VurtualRuler98> Shadowrun, Shadow Hearts.
20110301 19:03:11< VurtualRuler98> I have a very hard time listing low fantasy games that do not begin with "shadow" in some way.
20110301 19:03:28< keb> ok so its not related to "high elf" 
20110301 19:04:19< Gambit> It certainly isn't related to any sort of substances our elves consume.
20110301 19:04:32< VurtualRuler98> Such as people?
20110301 19:04:43< keb> i never seen them consume anything
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20110301 19:05:55< VurtualRuler98> They clearly eat what they kill.
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20110301 19:06:26< keb> and if not walking corpses will rise
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20110301 19:08:16< keb> the only food i've seen the orc campaign where wild boars give hp to the whole side
20110301 19:08:23< keb> *was in the
20110301 19:13:29< Gambit> My obvious drug joke was warped into eating corpses. Awesome.
20110301 19:13:57< keb> ya it took me about 3 minutes to catch the joke :/  
20110301 19:14:00 * keb need more coffeee
20110301 19:14:59< VurtualRuler98> your obvious drug joke was warped into an obvious DF joke.
20110301 19:15:39< Crendgrim> That's interesting. Are the walking corpses just imaginations based on drug abuse? :p Then I would know why the elves are nearly always happy... 
20110301 19:15:42< keb> DF?
20110301 19:16:24< VurtualRuler98> Dwarf Fortress.
20110301 19:16:48< Gambit> shikadibot: DF?
20110301 19:16:48< shikadibot> Gambit: Dark Forecast (DF)
20110301 19:17:26< keb> this does not bode well for dwarves
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20110301 19:18:35< VurtualRuler98> Yeah, but fun was inevitable.
20110301 19:20:30< Gambit> Crendgrim: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AddictiveMagic
20110301 19:21:22< Crendgrim> hehe
20110301 19:22:10< VurtualRuler98> and as a sidepoint: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DwarfFortress
20110301 19:23:55< keb> mmm ansi graphics
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20110301 21:28:25< Aethaeryn> Elvish_Pillage2: Lua feature requests?
20110301 21:28:34< Aethaeryn> I'm aware of [message], [set_menu_item], and the filtering.
20110301 21:29:01< grzywacz> Aethaeryn, maybe there's something at bugs.wesnoth.org?
20110301 21:29:42< Aethaeryn> Oh, that's right
20110301 21:29:53< Aethaeryn> Someone wants to see if I can still crash Wesnoth through Lua or if the bug is fully fixed.
20110301 21:30:07< Aethaeryn> I'll have to get to that after I finish my programming project for one of my courses.
20110301 21:33:32< Aethaeryn> hmm
20110301 21:33:41< Aethaeryn> I only get two results when I search for Lua, one of it is my bug
20110301 21:33:48< Aethaeryn> Unless Feature Requests are elsewhere?
20110301 21:37:15< grzywacz> Feature Requests are there, but you may have to play with advanced search.
20110301 21:37:21< grzywacz> No idea what sets of criteria you have selected.
20110301 21:40:44< Aethaeryn> grzywacz: http://goo.gl/2a8rC
20110301 21:40:51< Aethaeryn> gna.org adds so much junk to the URL
20110301 21:40:54< Aethaeryn> normally I don't use shorteners
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20110301 21:51:30< grzywacz> `\, it's easier if you just link to the specific bug like https://gna.org/bugs/index.php?17743 :)
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20110301 22:21:39< Elvish_Pillage2> Aethaeryn: what do you need lua feature requests for? Are you planning to code enhancements to Wesnoth's lua interface yourself?
20110301 22:21:54< Aethaeryn> Elvish_Pillage2: Yes.
20110301 22:21:58< Elvish_Pillage2> okay
20110301 22:22:10< Elvish_Pillage2> I have a couple written in my TODO (to ask silene for)
20110301 22:22:45< Elvish_Pillage2> - make wesnoth.message() able to (optionally) indicate a team color and remain in the chat log
20110301 22:23:27< Elvish_Pillage2> - allow WML standard location filters and conditionals to call Lua (the way standard unit filters can currently)
20110301 22:24:15< shadowmaster> Elvish_Pillage2: I know you probably don't read the developers ML because it's boring but,
20110301 22:24:18< shadowmaster> silene quit.
20110301 22:24:27< Elvish_Pillage2> aww
20110301 22:24:50< Elvish_Pillage2> and silene was so nice about coding whatever feature I asked for :(
20110301 22:24:50< Elvish_Pillage2> :p
20110301 22:25:51< Aethaeryn> Elvish_Pillage2: Gambit (I think) was arguing with noy
20110301 22:25:56< Aethaeryn> I think
20110301 22:25:58< Aethaeryn> About the color thing
20110301 22:26:03< Aethaeryn> I might have gotten one of the parties wrong
20110301 22:26:08< shadowmaster> Gambit was wha?
20110301 22:26:15< Aethaeryn> Was it not Gambit? Damn. 
20110301 22:26:24< Elvish_Pillage2> Last I remember, I had an argument with a couple people about it, but it turned out that they thought I meant allowing adding markup to chat
20110301 22:26:25< shadowmaster> what color thing, for that matter? you got me curious!
20110301 22:26:29< Aethaeryn> But basically, some dev said that it could be spoofing
20110301 22:26:36< Aethaeryn> could be used for spoofing
20110301 22:26:47< Elvish_Pillage2> and when I finally managed to explain that I meant just team coloring, they thought it was okay
20110301 22:26:57< shadowmaster> Aethaeryn: okay, now I remember. I think you got them right.
20110301 22:28:07< Aethaeryn> Elvish_Pillage2: the filter thing is extremely annoying.
20110301 22:28:11< Aethaeryn> or lack thereof
20110301 22:28:30< Aethaeryn> The last thing I want to do is { "or", { foobar }} WML tables
20110301 22:28:41< Elvish_Pillage2> of course
20110301 22:28:43< RemyLeBeau> Aethaeryn: I don't remember who it was.
20110301 22:28:49< RemyLeBeau> Other than that silene said he would fix it.
20110301 22:28:50< Aethaeryn> The whole reason I use Lua over WML is because events, conditionals, and so on, are too verbose in WML
20110301 22:29:06< Elvish_Pillage2> so the WML can simply be {"lua", { function="function name" }}
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20110301 22:29:27< RemyLeBeau> We agreed that Lua messages should be differentiable from player or observer messages though.
20110301 22:29:31< Aethaeryn> I definitely want [message], [option], [set_menu_item] etc fixed
20110301 22:29:45< Aethaeryn> So I don't have to do the command = "function_call()" hack
20110301 22:30:19< Elvish_Pillage2> do you understand the internal structure of the game data? None of the lua is stored in savefiles
20110301 22:30:27< Elvish_Pillage2> only the WML strings representing Lua code
20110301 22:30:59< Elvish_Pillage2> I guess you could make more things obligatory to put in preload events...
20110301 22:31:44< Aethaeryn> Elvish_Pillage2: But it prevents you from using local functions
20110301 22:31:51< Elvish_Pillage2> huh?
20110301 22:31:58< Elvish_Pillage2> oh, I see
20110301 22:32:05< Aethaeryn> Because code = is an external thing
20110301 22:32:14< Elvish_Pillage2> Yeah, it does. Got any suggestions for how to fix that>
20110301 22:32:15< Elvish_Pillage2> ?
20110301 22:32:15< Aethaeryn> So it goes against good coding practice for large projects, particularly libraries
20110301 22:32:28< Elvish_Pillage2> aside from rewriting Wesnoth entirely in Lua? :P
20110301 22:32:30< Aethaeryn> The only suggestion I think of is to write [message] and [set_menu_item] in Lua
20110301 22:32:37< Aethaeryn> Just two tags, not that hard
20110301 22:32:43< Elvish_Pillage2> ... you can assign local functions to global names, though
20110301 22:32:52< Elvish_Pillage2> so it's not like you can't work around it
20110301 22:32:54< Aethaeryn> Right.
20110301 22:33:08< Aethaeryn> But global variables...
20110301 22:33:10< Aethaeryn> Not good.
20110301 22:33:16< RemyLeBeau> Elvish_Pillage2: Anyway, AFAIK, it is actually not wanted at all for wesnoth.message() to be able to change colors.
20110301 22:33:20< Aethaeryn> As in, serious point deduction bad.
20110301 22:33:46< Elvish_Pillage2> Aethaeryn, [message] in lua seems perfectly doable, but [set_menu_item] will always have to have the conditionals in WML unless you either require it in preload or add non-WML stuff to savefiles.
20110301 22:34:02< Elvish_Pillage2> Which is why I want the intermediate step of allowing a conditional to simply call a lua function.
20110301 22:34:56< Aethaeryn> Perhaps you could implement [set_menu_item] as an object.
20110301 22:35:20< Elvish_Pillage2> How would that even begin to address the issue I raised?
20110301 22:35:46< Elvish_Pillage2> RemyLeBeau: that's factually false, given that I want it
20110301 22:35:56< Elvish_Pillage2> perhaps you could restate that in a way that says what you mean
20110301 22:36:02< VurtualRuler98> I'm either extremely stupid or extremely determined if I just sat here, reading
20110301 22:36:11< VurtualRuler98> thought "I'll just rewrite the engine for that."
20110301 22:36:22< VurtualRuler98> and didn't consider it an unusual task.
20110301 22:36:27< Elvish_Pillage2> lol
20110301 22:36:38< VurtualRuler98> It can't be THAT hard, can it? No?
20110301 22:36:43< VurtualRuler98> I'll rewrite it from scraatch.
20110301 22:38:10< Elvish_Pillage2> that's what I usually do
20110301 22:39:29< RemyLeBeau> Oh? You frequently rewrite the entire Wesnoth engine?
20110301 22:39:44< Elvish_Pillage2> well, I am not a Wesnoth developer
20110301 22:40:05< Elvish_Pillage2> but frequently, when I am writing a program and something doesn't work easily in it, I rewrite a large portion of the program instead of making incremental changes
20110301 22:40:07< RemyLeBeau> Elvish_Pillage2: oh and: It wasn't wanted by the developers.
20110301 22:40:15< RemyLeBeau> When I was discussing it with them anyway.
20110301 22:41:01< RemyLeBeau> Whoever that was.
20110301 22:41:06< RemyLeBeau> I think it may have been Soliton.
20110301 22:41:14< Soliton> you cannot fake colors in non-local chat messages, the server will fix them for you.
20110301 22:41:19< RemyLeBeau> And noy also expressed concerns about it at a later date.
20110301 22:41:29< Elvish_Pillage2> heh.
20110301 22:41:38< RemyLeBeau> Soliton: No it was about giving wesnoth.message() the ability to display different colors.
20110301 22:42:00< RemyLeBeau> So you could store side 1's leader and send messages with $unit.name colored with player 1 red.
20110301 22:42:20< Soliton> well, i don't know what wesnoth.message() is but you seemed to talk about chat messages.
20110301 22:42:30< RemyLeBeau> Yes. I was making a [chat] tag for WML.
20110301 22:42:32< Elvish_Pillage2> wesnoth.message() simulates chat messages
20110301 22:43:33-!- RemyLeBeau is now known as Gambit
20110301 22:44:37< Gambit> wesnoth.message() is a lua function that displays a message in the chat area.
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20110301 22:52:07< Gambit> The concern was that people would make add-ons that faked moderators or faked insults between players or what have you.
20110301 22:52:24< Elvish_Pillage2> yeah, well
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20110301 22:52:44< Elvish_Pillage2> I can currently make a map which is a detailed picture of a penis
20110301 22:52:49< Elvish_Pillage2> and host it on the multiplayer server
20110301 22:53:03< Elvish_Pillage2> clearly we shouldn't have this "map" feature
20110301 22:53:04< Gambit> That's offensive.
20110301 22:53:20< Gambit> But it doesn't make Billybob mad at Bobbysue for calling him a [whatever].
20110301 22:53:23< Elvish_Pillage2> and faking moderators isn't?
20110301 22:53:40< Gambit> Elvish_Pillage2: I'm saying that spoofing people is a whole new league.
20110301 22:53:44< Gambit> And we can't stop penis maps.
20110301 22:53:57< Gambit> We can stop this easily.
20110301 22:54:14< Gambit> But I'm being devil's advocate here.
20110301 22:54:28< Gambit> I'd love to be able to specify a color.
20110301 22:54:54< Gambit> But the other side isn't paying attention to defend themselves right now, and their complaints were valid ones.
20110301 22:55:02< Gambit> Whoever they were.
20110301 22:55:19< Elvish_Pillage2> I don't think it's productive to restrict features based on trying to avoid exploitability, except for major issues like the one that made us have to remove Python
20110301 22:55:48< Elvish_Pillage2> because there are plenty of ways to be an asshole via Wesnoth already
20110301 22:55:59< Elvish_Pillage2> it comes with the territory of "doing anything whatsoever"
20110301 22:57:21< Soliton> that's not an argument for adding more ways.
20110301 22:57:37< Elvish_Pillage2> ...
20110301 22:57:56< VurtualRuler98> Look out!
20110301 22:57:58< Elvish_Pillage2> Did I ever say "please let add-on devs recolor messages to that they can exploit it to be annoying"?
20110301 22:58:01< VurtualRuler98> People might potentially do something malicious!
20110301 22:58:04< VurtualRuler98> Quickly, make the game boring!
20110301 22:58:25< Elvish_Pillage2> No, I said "please let add-on devs recolor messages so that I can make cool immersive dialogue"
20110301 22:58:27< VurtualRuler98> I'll show you one better. A campaign that's frustratingly annoying and negative.
20110301 22:58:45< VurtualRuler98> What are you going to do then, huh? Restrict gameplay?
20110301 22:58:51< Aethaeryn> Gambit: Why not just use (Name)
20110301 22:58:57< VurtualRuler98> What if... they spelled out a bad word?
20110301 22:58:57< Aethaeryn> instead of <Name> for chat when prompted by Lua?
20110301 22:59:14< Aethaeryn> So (BlarghTheOrc) when he speaks won't be confused with the player <BlarghTheOrc>
20110301 22:59:37< VurtualRuler98> Blargh was always such a trickster.
20110301 22:59:43< Aethaeryn> Yup.
20110301 22:59:47< Elvish_Pillage2> Aethaeryn: that is the kind of obvious and sensible idea that will not get you anywhere in life ;-)
20110301 23:00:04< Aethaeryn> Just saying, color or not, there are morons who'd be tricked by <Aethaeryn> 
20110301 23:00:14< Aethaeryn> Change the bracket shape to () or [] and you know it's Lua.
20110301 23:00:24< Aethaeryn> Or at least, you can try to reason with them and might be more pursuasive
20110301 23:00:54< Elvish_Pillage2> <Aethaeryn> Actually, never mind; reasoning with them is useless, they won't get it
20110301 23:01:24< VurtualRuler98> We are dealing with open source here.
20110301 23:01:29< Aethaeryn> Aethaeryn: I disagree. I think you could just make it obvious but at the same time subtle.
20110301 23:01:44< Aethaeryn> As long as you change the symbol.
20110301 23:01:55< Aethaeryn> VurtualRuler98: Yes, let's fork the Wesnoth project just over one tiny chat feature.
20110301 23:02:01< VurtualRuler98> No, no
20110301 23:02:04< VurtualRuler98> the whole "reasoning" thing
20110301 23:02:21< Gambit> Aethaeryn: I think because wesnoth.message() uses whatever the function is for displaying chat messages on the screen
20110301 23:02:29< Aethaeryn> <VurtualRuler98> Yeah, I already have it up on github. <- Why the change of opinion so suddenly?
20110301 23:02:33< Gambit> And it doesn't allow you to pick the symbols.
20110301 23:02:49< Aethaeryn> Gambit: patch it
20110301 23:02:54< Aethaeryn> Make it boolean.
20110301 23:03:01< Gambit> You do it :P
20110301 23:03:04< Aethaeryn> 1 for typical, 0 for () alternative sysmessages
20110301 23:03:09< Aethaeryn> Including Lua
20110301 23:03:24< Aethaeryn> or wait, C++ has true bool doesn't it?
20110301 23:04:10< Elvish_Pillage2> "true bool"?
20110301 23:04:56< Elvish_Pillage2> if you're asking whether it has a type named "bool" whose values are represented in good code as true or false, rather than 1 or 0, then yes
20110301 23:05:21< Elvish_Pillage2> IIRC, though, true == 1 and false == 0
20110301 23:06:05 * Elvish_Pillage2 goes to dinner
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--- Log closed Wed Mar 02 00:00:12 2011