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20110319 04:19:01< tyatpi2> hey there everyone.  what is the zone of control?
20110319 04:23:25< fabi__> hi tyatpi2
20110319 04:23:40< fabi__> tyatpi2: There is an ingame help.
20110319 04:24:09< fabi__> tyatpi2: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/BasicStrategy
20110319 04:24:15< tyatpi2> i know, but it does not cover that ttopc
20110319 04:24:28< tyatpi2> *topic
20110319 04:25:04< tyatpi2> that helps.  i was at advanced tactics on the wiki
20110319 04:25:40< fabi__> Look in the "Movement" subsection
20110319 04:25:43< fabi__> It is there.
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20110319 11:19:27< Ivanovic> moin
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20110319 13:42:20< SynrG> i'm playing with my 20yo daughter who is mildly autistic. she insists on using female characters and it bothers her to have to use a male one. has it ever been considered to make more female characters with leadership ability? for now, i have just asked her to use the elvish captain and "pretend the character is female" but i know it bothers her.
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20110319 13:45:54< Gambit> SynrG: One of the factors is lack of art.
20110319 13:46:14< SynrG> ah
20110319 13:46:15< Gambit> But your leader doesn't have to have the leadership ability.
20110319 13:46:32< SynrG> no, but it is important that i teach her about using leadership ability
20110319 13:46:38< SynrG> for her to learn the game
20110319 13:46:45< Gambit> Ah.
20110319 13:47:09< SynrG> perhaps more of an issue for autistics than neurotypicals :)
20110319 13:49:41< Jafet> There are a number of gender stereotypes done in the name of mythology.
20110319 13:50:02< Gambit> But yes if I recall correctly the low number of female units is partially a lack of artwork, and partially because they're only being added where they make sense for the lore.
20110319 13:50:10< SynrG> i understand the stereotypes rationale ...
20110319 13:50:29< SynrG> but for those who want strict adherence to mythology, let lack of choice of gender be the default ...
20110319 13:50:53< SynrG> but provide it as an option
20110319 13:51:19< SynrG> "Mythologically correct gender." or some such :)
20110319 13:51:50< Jafet> It is already an option, for any character type that provides art for both. Or are you talking about the campaigns?
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20110319 13:52:58< SynrG> ah
20110319 13:54:03< SynrG> well, campaigns or any scenario in which you might want it to be strictly mythologically correct where random gender assignments are made, in spite of presence of artwork, yes
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20110319 13:57:47< SynrG> or to put it another way: perhaps there is not yet the incentive by the artists to produce the necessary artwork unless the mythology aspect is addressed by the game first?
20110319 13:58:09< SynrG> (not necessarily in the way i proposed)
20110319 13:59:11< Jafet> Well, I think the only official campaign with a female leader is the tutorial...
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20110319 15:38:48< vultraz> does SurvivalXtreme have a GIT or SVN repo?
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20110319 16:18:44< SynrG> Jafet: so, in general, game features tend to be driven by campaigns? I had actually thought this particular feature would be more useful for multiplayer, as that's what we're teaching with (my daughter finds playing against bots too boring)
20110319 16:19:38< SynrG> the point is that she identifies strongly with the characters she plays. she likes to name them, she likes them to be female ... and this increases her enjoyment of the game.
20110319 16:20:30< SynrG> unfortunately, the characters who are allowed to be female are limited, so she doesn't get a balanced education in the game as a result, since she's more likely to think of gender than what unit would actually fare better
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20110319 16:30:40< H-Hour__> SynrG, you might consider assembling your own all-female faction for her. it would be mostly humans/elves, but there is a female merfolk and you could call a gryphon female. it wouldn't be the most balanced thing, but could work. 
20110319 16:30:54< H-Hour__> it's easy to give a leadership ability to any unit you wanted, as well.
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20110319 16:48:51< SynrG> H-Hour__: you mean by hacking the units?
20110319 16:50:13< H-Hour__> you can do it in an add-on so you don't tamper with the original files. create your own faction, copy over the units you want. downloading any era and looking over the wml should give you an idea of how it is done
20110319 16:50:43< SynrG> ah. ok
20110319 16:50:46< SynrG> tnx
20110319 16:51:21< SynrG> so i could do an "Era of women"?
20110319 16:52:43< Crendgrim> if you find enough artwork...
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20110319 16:53:11< SynrG> so, it's possible if i scour the forums ... someone has done some?
20110319 16:56:56< H-Hour__> SynrG, i was suggesting you just use what females are available in core, but you may find more artwork elsewhere.
20110319 16:57:26< Crendgrim> a female HI sounds interesting...
20110319 16:58:31< zookeeper> SynrG, well, it'd be pretty easy to modify a campaign so that the protagonist is a female... you'd pretty much only need to change the name, unit type and portrait and then hope there aren't much references to their gender in the text.
20110319 16:58:42< zookeeper> dunno if cheating like that is an option ;)
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20110319 17:00:57< zookeeper> i guess most campaigns would have some sort of references to gender though, but i think at least an orcish incursion and the south guard would be pretty easy to do
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20110319 20:20:07< SynrG> zookeeper: well, so far, my daughter has demonstrated no interest in campaigns. as i said, she finds playing bots boring. she and i have been duelling repeatedly on hamlets elves vs. elves as an exercise in learning the game.
20110319 20:20:57< SynrG> zookeeper: so my motivation in making the inquiry here about female leadership ability is just to cater to this specific use case, helping her to identify more with the game character's she's playing, since fantasy is a big part of her life.
20110319 20:21:07< SynrG> characters*
20110319 20:23:19< zookeeper> SynrG, oh, right...
20110319 20:26:58< dougmencken> female leadeship capability? oh
20110319 20:27:12< dougmencken> what'm I reading here
20110319 20:27:56< zookeeper> SynrG, so what would do? adding leadership to some female leaders? that'd be easy. making female variations of existing leadership units? likewise easy, except for the art.
20110319 20:28:18< dougmencken> SynrG: it would be fork; please, don't do it upstream!
20110319 20:29:10< dougmencken> ;)
20110319 20:29:15< Aethaeryn> I think elves are very pro-female as they are, though.
20110319 20:29:21< Aethaeryn> The most powerful/awesome elves are female-only lines.
20110319 20:29:33< dougmencken> Aethaeryn: yeah, especially healers
20110319 20:30:01< Aethaeryn> Elvish fighters and their promotions: male only... Elvish shamans and their promotions: female only.
20110319 20:30:24< Aethaeryn> Well, sorry, but if you're going to choose a career, the shydes/sylphs are much better than some stupid captain.
20110319 20:30:53< dougmencken> it's almost impossible to get shaman to lvl up
20110319 20:31:54< Aethaeryn> Yes, they're more campaign than MP
20110319 20:32:08< Aethaeryn> But, if you're doing a long game of any time, you need to feed xp to units like shamans.
20110319 20:32:13< Aethaeryn> Shamans are the magikarp of Wesnoth.
20110319 20:32:29< Aethaeryn> Not particularly strong, but they become pretty awesome if you feed them xp.
20110319 20:32:36< dougmencken> Aethaeryn: if they 'd get xps for healing...
20110319 20:32:47< Aethaeryn> But it's fun as it is.
20110319 20:32:50< Aethaeryn> Gets you to manage your units more.
20110319 20:32:54< Aethaeryn> Again, they're like magikarps.
20110319 20:32:58< Aethaeryn> Better, even.
20110319 20:33:04< Aethaeryn> Since magikarps just have splash and do nothing.
20110319 20:33:25< Aethaeryn> Shaman lines are pretty useful/powerful.
20110319 20:33:52< Aethaeryn> If you're in a campaign and you're having trouble promoting them, you're doing it wrong.
20110319 20:34:19< Aethaeryn> Essentially, they hide behind fighters/archers and finish off units.
20110319 20:34:21< dougmencken> Aethaeryn: on campaigns, yes, coz you can recall
20110319 20:34:29< dougmencken> but on multi
20110319 20:34:37< Aethaeryn> Well, in MP, you rarely see any promotion.
20110319 20:34:46< Aethaeryn> Unless you're in a non-standard game.
20110319 20:34:52< Aethaeryn> But in MP, slow is very useful.
20110319 20:35:43< dougmencken> Aethaeryn: nope, fighters (supported by those elvish shamans) are okay in lvl up; 3-5 lvl2 units to the end of game is a standard
20110319 20:36:11< Aethaeryn> Then you play on non-standard settings.
20110319 20:36:19< dougmencken> nope, 100% xp gain
20110319 20:36:27< Aethaeryn> In a typical 1 on 1, usually you might get 1-2 promotions on any given side, at least during the critical moment.
20110319 20:36:36< Aethaeryn> Anything after that is irrelevant when the game is essentially over.
20110319 20:36:51< Aethaeryn> Except for maybe Cynsaun or more-than-2p
20110319 20:37:07< dougmencken> Aethaeryn: I do rarely play duels (1v1)
20110319 20:37:13< Aethaeryn> So do I.
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20110319 20:37:18< Aethaeryn> I much prefer chaotic FFAs.
20110319 20:37:21< dougmencken> in duels, yep, 1-2 lvl2 units on end
20110319 20:37:27< Aethaeryn> I'm usually more reserved than the other players in FFAs...
20110319 20:37:33< Aethaeryn> I wait for one side to get overextended.
20110319 20:37:43< Aethaeryn> Teams are pretty fun too.
20110319 20:37:55< Aethaeryn> Though I mostly play my own maps.
20110319 20:37:57< dougmencken> ffa? oops, they can turn 7 vs you 1! I like teamplays
20110319 20:38:10< un214> I've played lots of ffas
20110319 20:38:11< Aethaeryn> Well, I usually do 4-5p FFAs.
20110319 20:38:16< Aethaeryn> 1-2 are n00bs
20110319 20:38:24< Aethaeryn> Then if you're lucky the guy in the early lead overextends
20110319 20:38:29< Aethaeryn> And you cut his forces in two.
20110319 20:38:48< un214> I win 50% of 3p ffas I'm in and 35% of 4p ffas
20110319 20:38:58< Aethaeryn> I don't really like 3p
20110319 20:39:06< Aethaeryn> 4-5 is more chaotic.
20110319 20:39:14< Aethaeryn> 3p often is full of jerks.
20110319 20:39:34< un214> playing rebels in 3p ffa with fog can lead to really good traps
20110319 20:39:37< dougmencken> Aethaeryn: 3p and 4p are great with noob-only players; but team games with good opponents are better anyways
20110319 20:39:40< Aethaeryn> If it's 4+ players, I can play reserved/defensive, maybe make a temporary border agreement with one of my neighbors, then attack whoever's in the lead once he's open.
20110319 20:39:43< Aethaeryn> And hope for a win.
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20110319 20:39:57< un214> opponent knows I filled space between us with woses
20110319 20:40:01< un214> third does not and advances in
20110319 20:40:05< un214> loses half his army
20110319 20:40:15< dougmencken> well, I'm going to play, so this chat will eat cpu ticks :)
20110319 20:40:17< dougmencken> see you
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20110319 20:40:43< Tomsik> Am in #wesnoth or am I in #counter-strike?
20110319 20:40:46< Tomsik> Noobs? WhaT?
20110319 20:40:55< un214> there are wesnoth noobs
20110319 20:41:00< un214> I eat them for breakfast
20110319 20:41:12< Tomsik> No
20110319 20:41:20< Aethaeryn> If you play 4-6 player games, you will get at least one n00b.
20110319 20:41:21< Tomsik> I mean that this mindset of yours if quite arrogant
20110319 20:41:25< Aethaeryn> Unless it's prearranged or you're lucky.
20110319 20:41:30< Tomsik> likewise that of Aethaeryn :p
20110319 20:41:32< Aethaeryn> n00b as in someone who doesn't know how to play Wesnoth at all
20110319 20:41:51< Aethaeryn> As in, someone who screws up the FFA by playing so poorly that his neighbors scramble for his villages.
20110319 20:42:07< un214> done that
20110319 20:42:30< VurtualRuler98> I once played wesnoth perfectly. Then all of my attacks missed, and I lost.
20110319 20:42:40< Tomsik> Everyone did.
20110319 20:42:46< un214> happens
20110319 20:43:09< un214> as unforrtunate as that is there's no known solution
20110319 20:43:10< VurtualRuler98> I doubt the functionality of a system where you have all but one square surrounding a leader be taken up by level 2 units, and then they all die.
20110319 20:43:29< VurtualRuler98> Wait wait wait, no solution, you say?
20110319 20:43:42< Aethaeryn> It's a nondeterministic system.
20110319 20:43:50< un214> no _known_ solution
20110319 20:44:04< VurtualRuler98> Two ways to fix that! One is a stupid system where enough misses automatically earn you hits(so no matter what, at least a certain percentage of hits will happen).
20110319 20:44:17< VurtualRuler98> Another is to change how you actually do combat calculations.
20110319 20:44:28 * zookeeper facepalms
20110319 20:44:30< zookeeper> not this
20110319 20:44:43< VurtualRuler98> This comes up a lot, we all know that.
20110319 20:44:55< Aethaeryn> A good Wesnoth player knows how to win. A great Wesnoth player knows how to win even when the RNG goes wrong at key moments.
20110319 20:44:55< zookeeper> let's rather discuss apple pie
20110319 20:45:06< un214> 1 is known to be worse than the disease, 2 is available as a mod
20110319 20:45:14< VurtualRuler98> brb getting that mod
20110319 20:45:22< Aethaeryn> People hate the RNG because of a fundamental misunderstanding of statistics.
20110319 20:45:36< VurtualRuler98> No no it's the other way around, the RNG actively taunts me. Very actively.
20110319 20:45:43< Aethaeryn> If you flip a million fair coins, and you get a million heads, people will bet on tails.
20110319 20:45:50< Aethaeryn> Thinking it must come up at some point.
20110319 20:45:54< Aethaeryn> When it'a always 50/50.
20110319 20:45:59< Aethaeryn> This comes up with children, too.
20110319 20:46:01< un214> I got a line
20110319 20:46:06< Aethaeryn> "Oh, it's a boy, let's try again for a girl."
20110319 20:46:09< Aethaeryn> x5
20110319 20:46:12< VurtualRuler98> I can't play NetHack without getting a 3-charge wand of wishing on dlevel 2, and then proceeding to die when I encounter a room swarming with monsters.
20110319 20:46:36< un214> then get better at nethack
20110319 20:46:39< VurtualRuler98> Veterans chew me out for dying from improbable odds.
20110319 20:46:53< un214> give me a 3 charge at start and I'll show you what can be done
20110319 20:47:15< VurtualRuler98> Consulted a bunch of people too!
20110319 20:47:34< Aethaeryn> Statistics should be mandatory.
20110319 20:47:46< VurtualRuler98> There's also the wonderful "you are at 1 hp from fighting hordes of monsters, and rest in a well-protected room. Jackals flood the room, and you die."
20110319 20:47:47< Aethaeryn> Math, yeah, it's useful for a bunch of high-paying careers.
20110319 20:47:51< Aethaeryn> But statistics, it's useful for life.
20110319 20:48:18< Aethaeryn> (And this is coming from someone who prefers the non-statistical mathematics.)
20110319 20:48:27< un214> look man with correct handling of WoW that can't happen to you
20110319 20:49:09< VurtualRuler98> hindsight is 20/20 etc
20110319 20:49:14< Aethaeryn> Ugh.
20110319 20:49:23< Aethaeryn> I need to make a game that requires advanced understand of calculus, somehow.
20110319 20:49:26< Aethaeryn> A fun game.
20110319 20:49:32< VurtualRuler98> Dwarf Fortress?
20110319 20:49:34< Aethaeryn> Because no one gives a damn about learning unless it's related to a game.
20110319 20:49:59< un214> it happens that humans are very good at finding approximate solutions to integral calculus problems in their heads
20110319 20:50:00< VurtualRuler98> It's not that it's impossible to win these scenarios, it's just that they happen every ten seconds, and I don't own a war room's worth of strategists.
20110319 20:50:15< Aethaeryn> Well, I need to find something, probably some kind of economy/strategy thing, that requires derivatives, integrals, and limits to really get the most out of it.
20110319 20:50:24< un214> then don't play nethack
20110319 20:50:30< un214> that's what nethack fundamentally is
20110319 20:50:33< VurtualRuler98> Well yeah I learned that like, five years ago!
20110319 20:50:42< Aethaeryn> Nethack is fundamentally wtf.
20110319 20:50:53< Aethaeryn> Like, how do I get past floor 3... where's the secret exit or key or w/e?
20110319 20:51:02< Aethaeryn> I like games with graphics for that reason. :-P
20110319 20:51:08< VurtualRuler98> The dungeons are completely random.
20110319 20:51:15< VurtualRuler98> Just keep searching for secret doors and such.
20110319 20:51:17< Aethaeryn> Even in Wolfenstein 3D I can just press SPACEBAR across the walls until I get through
20110319 20:51:24< VurtualRuler98> You can do that in NetHack just fine.
20110319 20:51:29< Aethaeryn> VurtualRuler98: I like strategy...
20110319 20:51:34< un214> VurtualRuler98 didn't get far enough to find non-random dungeons in nethack??
20110319 20:51:34< Aethaeryn> It just gets ridiculous in nethack
20110319 20:51:46< VurtualRuler98> un214, except for all the non-random stuff.
20110319 20:51:51< Aethaeryn> Like, I have better things to do with my time to find secret ways through.
20110319 20:51:51< VurtualRuler98> But I'm pretty sure floor 3 is random.
20110319 20:51:59< Aethaeryn> Well, I think it was 3.
20110319 20:52:01< un214> it is
20110319 20:52:04< VurtualRuler98> and 4.
20110319 20:52:18< Aethaeryn> Anyway, I much prefer Wesband
20110319 20:52:22< un214> one player had a pet level 49 worm
20110319 20:52:37< Aethaeryn> But really... when I get Master of Dungeons completed...
20110319 20:52:42< un214> and left it in a bones file
20110319 20:52:44< Aethaeryn> That'll fill all my RPG needs
20110319 20:56:06< Aethaeryn> Actually, once I get the inventory ready, I could probably do a few tests on trunk and/or development
20110319 20:56:22< Aethaeryn> inventory/promotions
20110319 20:59:09< VurtualRuler98> none of these frustrations beat "quicksaved while a gun was hitting you"
20110319 20:59:54< VurtualRuler98> I can safely say I have had to learn how to move faster than bullets.
20110319 21:03:49< Aethaeryn> I do not see a utility to playing FPS games
20110319 21:04:23< Aethaeryn> Sure, some of them can be fun, but I do not see why they are worth any significant time investment.
20110319 21:04:45< Aethaeryn> Time is scarce.
20110319 21:04:53< un214> then fork()
20110319 21:05:00< VurtualRuler98> Aethaeryn because they're fun.
20110319 21:05:02< Aethaeryn> fork while fork;
20110319 21:05:08< VurtualRuler98> Time you enjoyed wasting levels up your stats.
20110319 21:05:39< Aethaeryn> I have determined that RL achievements > XBL achievements.
20110319 21:05:59< VurtualRuler98> who uses xbox live
20110319 21:06:16< VurtualRuler98> hey Aethaeryn do you remember that guy who said all FPSes are bad, because the open source ones he played were bad?
20110319 21:06:21< VurtualRuler98> You're becoming him.
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20110319 21:06:49< zookeeper> playing fps games is a waste of time but playing strategy games or nethack totally helps you get far in life!
20110319 21:07:44< VurtualRuler98> Because nothing says useless like learning US army first aid
20110319 21:07:51 * un214 sends zookeeper a ring of teleport control
20110319 21:08:04< VurtualRuler98> Or cooperative skills. Those are useleeess.
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20110319 21:13:49< Aethaeryn> VurtualRuler98: I've played various CoD games, various Halo games, etc.
20110319 21:13:57< Aethaeryn> HL2 as well.
20110319 21:14:02< Aethaeryn> And Doom 3.
20110319 21:14:07< Aethaeryn> and both ETs
20110319 21:14:11< Aethaeryn> And, well, this list will get long fast.
20110319 21:14:33< Aethaeryn> zookeeper: Actually, yes, Wesnoth has helped me get far in life.
20110319 21:15:12< Aethaeryn> I managed to sponsor esr giving a talk on open source at my uni, advancing my position in the LUG there... and I might be able to get involved in GSOC this summer if I get accepted, which would be $5,000
20110319 21:15:30< Aethaeryn> I may have convinced someone who hates Perl/Python to consider Lua as his C-interfacing scripting language that he needs...
20110319 21:15:46< Aethaeryn> I've accomplished a lot due to Wesnoth.
20110319 21:16:15< zookeeper> Aethaeryn, so?
20110319 21:18:03< Aethaeryn> zookeeper: So Wesnoth has had a lot of positive, unintended benefits to my RL.
20110319 21:18:18< Aethaeryn> I cannot say the same to most other games I've played, FPSes included. Usually the only thing they do is occupy time.
20110319 21:18:28< zookeeper> ...so? please somehow tie that into what i said.
20110319 21:18:40< Aethaeryn> < zookeeper> playing fps games is a waste of time but playing strategy games or nethack totally helps you get far in life!
20110319 21:18:50< Aethaeryn> Wesnoth totally helped me get far in life!
20110319 21:19:06< zookeeper> i didn't say strategy games or nethack couldn't get you far in life.
20110319 21:19:08< SynrG> Aethaeryn: bleah. missed your contribution earlier to the discussion about female leadership ... yes, i understand there are some powerful female units amongst the elves, so that's where we started ...
20110319 21:19:12< VurtualRuler98> on the PC, Aethaeryn?
20110319 21:19:14< VurtualRuler98> What about quake 3?
20110319 21:19:26< SynrG> when my daughter played "in character" she always selected these and therefore always failed to use them effectively
20110319 21:19:33< Aethaeryn> VurtualRuler98: I've played several Quakes, not sure about the 3rd one. I do own it though.
20110319 21:19:39< SynrG> she never managed to enter any of them into action ...
20110319 21:19:44< VurtualRuler98> come play it with me then.
20110319 21:19:54< SynrG> because our games were short, and therefore she could never adequately protect her
20110319 21:19:55< VurtualRuler98> Also, let me show off all the jobs one gets in the FPS industry.
20110319 21:19:57< Aethaeryn> VurtualRuler98: I've bought the Id superpack on Steam, so I should have all of them.
20110319 21:20:07< Aethaeryn> Well, until the most recent ones like the newest Wolfenstein 
20110319 21:20:18< VurtualRuler98> Go install ioquake3 and we will fight.
20110319 21:20:23< SynrG> had she had a captain, i think she'd have an easier time of it. but she avoided these because they are male
20110319 21:20:24< Aethaeryn> ioquake3?
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20110319 22:47:24< vultraz> Does SurvivalXtreme have a GIT or SVN repo?
20110319 22:47:45< shadowmaster> doubt it. Git is no acronym, btw.
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20110319 22:53:29< VurtualRuler98> git isn't turncated
20110319 22:53:34< VurtualRuler98> I'm truly sorry
20110319 22:54:22< shadowmaster> VurtualRuler98: shut up.
20110319 23:01:26< VurtualRuler98> ;_;
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20110319 23:08:32< Gambit> Aww a computer pun that I don't get?
20110319 23:09:01< shadowmaster> no
20110319 23:09:14< shadowmaster> it's his typical world-salad commentary
20110319 23:09:30< shadowmaster> word-salad, even
20110319 23:10:37< VurtualRuler98> Chopping up entire worlds into salad?
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20110319 23:57:54< atomicbomb_> hello irc!
20110319 23:58:48< shadowmaster> Gambit: ^
--- Log closed Sun Mar 20 00:00:41 2011