--- Log opened Thu Apr 07 00:00:12 2011
20110407 00:00:21< zaroth> Nephro: I'd even say an svn client and svn trunk version is more useful for coding, I think the dev releases are aimed mostly at WML add-on developers ;-)
20110407 00:01:29< Nephro> Well, I got my source using TortoiseSVN, and the external files from the compiling guide for windows
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20110407 00:01:56< Nephro> Only thing bad was that the .bat file in the externals archive was outdated and I had to ask for help herre
20110407 00:02:39< Qbunia> ah ;> 
20110407 00:02:55< Qbunia> i think i will handle it if something go wrong i will post msg here ;) 
20110407 00:06:05 * zaroth just discovered that GUI2_EXPERIMENTAL_LISTBOX breaks building wesnoth
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20110407 00:18:37 * Qbunia thinks so what zaroth??
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20110407 00:59:27-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: Google Summer of Code: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SummerOfCodeIdeas | 193 bugs, 307 feature requests, 22 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
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20110407 01:11:24< Qbunia> i compiled the wesnoth 1.9 using VC9 
20110407 01:11:30< Qbunia> and when i run the game i get this 
20110407 01:11:30< Qbunia> the procedure entry point pango_font_map_create_context could not be located in the dynamic link library libpango-1.0-0.dll
20110407 01:11:33< Qbunia> some1 have some solution ?
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20110407 01:21:20< Xenmen> you *do* have pango installed, right?
20110407 01:33:38< Qbunia> nope what is it pago?
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20110407 01:42:30< Xenmen> texty tools
20110407 01:42:33< Xenmen> http://www.pango.org/
20110407 01:42:42< Xenmen> Wesnoth needs it for fancy font rendering
20110407 01:43:08< Xenmen> make sure you grab all the dependencies listed on the wiki page
20110407 01:43:35< Xenmen> http://wiki.wesnoth.org/CompilingWesnoth
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20110407 02:16:56< fendrin> hi tschmitz
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20110407 02:32:52< tschmitz> Hi fendrin
20110407 02:32:58< tschmitz> Sorry I'm a little late
20110407 02:33:18< fendrin> tschmitz: late?
20110407 02:33:31< tschmitz> in responding to that
20110407 02:33:55< tschmitz> Anyways ... I'm going to take a much-needed shower. Be back in a little while ...
20110407 02:33:55< fendrin> tschmitz: Oh, this is irc chat. It can take days to an answer sometimes.
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20110407 03:02:35< tschmitz> All right ... shower accomplished.
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20110407 03:09:06 * Xenmen *claps*
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20110407 03:10:39< gabba> Howdy
20110407 03:11:20< tschmitz> Hey gabba
20110407 03:11:30< tschmitz> I came back just in time, then
20110407 03:11:32< gabba> hey tschmitz
20110407 03:11:59< tschmitz> I was just about to finish up my proposal
20110407 03:12:15< tschmitz> That is to say, it still hasn't changed since last time you looked at it
20110407 03:13:44< gabba> ping me when you're done, I'll take a look at it
20110407 03:14:22< tschmitz> OK
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20110407 03:34:41< tschmitz> OK so hey gabba
20110407 03:34:47< gabba> yup
20110407 03:35:22< tschmitz> Now that I'm slightly more familiar with the network stuff, I took another look at your diagram
20110407 03:35:31< tschmitz> it seems pretty complete
20110407 03:35:49< tschmitz> Why didn't you implement it (just wondering)?
20110407 03:36:38< fendrin> hi gabba
20110407 03:36:48< gabba> hi fendrin
20110407 03:37:04< gabba> tschmitz: time, my friend, time is a scarce commodity
20110407 03:37:30< tschmitz> I see
20110407 03:37:32< gabba> the whole whiteboard project was a bit too ambitious for a GSoC
20110407 03:37:58< tschmitz> So what I'm wondering now is whether the remaining portion of the whiteboard project is enough for a second gsoc
20110407 03:38:09< tschmitz> At least the network part
20110407 03:38:14< gabba> If I worked like Crab_ during his GSoC, I would've finished it probably (i.e. 8 hours/day, 7 days/week :P)
20110407 03:38:20< tschmitz> hmm
20110407 03:38:22< tschmitz> Oh
20110407 03:38:23< tschmitz> heh
20110407 03:38:30< gabba> tschmitz: oh yes, definitely
20110407 03:38:34< tschmitz> I can imagine I might be doing that, after the quarter ends
20110407 03:38:51< gabba> First, they did want to scale down the size of projects quite a bit
20110407 03:39:08< gabba> save about a third of the time for pure bugfixing and proper documentation
20110407 03:39:54< gabba> And second if you finish the network part and *really* don't know want to do (we'll see about that :D), there are awesome features to implement
20110407 03:40:56< tschmitz> I'm sure there are plenty of other things beyond the network part I could do, but do you think the proposal will seem complete enough if I just focus on the network part?
20110407 03:41:20< tschmitz> As far as I can tell, the main thing left to do is serialize the side_actions object
20110407 03:41:58< gabba> Boucman and I agreed that the network part is about just right for GSoC, but an "optional" section with things that make sense would help
20110407 03:42:21< gabba> We can discuss a few ideas now, as long as we don't get bogged down in the details
20110407 03:43:20< gabba> tschmitz: but yeah, don't underestimate stuff like UI work
20110407 03:43:24< tschmitz> and then consider whether or not to send it as "diffs"
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20110407 03:44:23< gabba> For instance you'll probably want to provide settings to allow selectively hiding plans from other players. Getting acquainted with Wesnoth's UI is a whole task in itself.
20110407 03:44:56< gabba> Then you might want to make those options available from several menus, provide shortcut keys that make sense (and discuss those on IRC)... fun times
20110407 03:45:10< gabba> The current shortcut keys could use a rework, actually
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20110407 03:46:26< gabba> tschmitz_: connection problems?
20110407 03:46:35< tschmitz_> Seems I lagged out
20110407 03:46:38< tschmitz_> but I checked the log
20110407 03:46:40< gabba> http://www.wesnoth.org/irclogs/2011/04/%23wesnoth-dev.2011-04-07.log 
20110407 03:46:48< gabba> k
20110407 03:46:56< tschmitz_> so what I was going to say, but it didn't send ...
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20110407 03:50:45< tschmitz__> Am I back yet?
20110407 03:50:51< gabba> yes
20110407 03:51:13< tschmitz__> That's funny that I got cut off again before I could say what I was going to say ...
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20110407 03:51:28< tschmitz__> So um, I was going to say something along the lines of ...
20110407 03:51:36< tschmitz__> You have a lot of planning done for the network part already
20110407 03:51:39< gabba> well, your current instance has two underscores, but apart from that you seem present
20110407 03:51:46< tschmitz__> so I'm trying to figure out what my proposal will be adding
20110407 03:52:06< tschmitz__> to the picture
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20110407 03:53:16< gabba> Ok, so filtering the display of moves and allowing for suggestions to allies (for teaching, planning and possibly giving cues to the AI - Crab's idea)
20110407 03:53:25< gabba> would be definite pluses
20110407 03:53:27< tschmitz__> I find it somewhat difficult to consider the kinds of details that I could add ... before I've started working on it
20110407 03:53:38< tschmitz__> OK
20110407 03:53:49< tschmitz__> so that's slightly separate from just the plain old network part
20110407 03:54:03-!- tschmitz__ is now known as tschmitz
20110407 03:54:27< tschmitz> So I should add in some deeper thoughts about features beyond just sharing what you've made between players
20110407 03:54:47< tschmitz> because your implementation already allows multicolored arrows
20110407 03:54:50< tschmitz> er
20110407 03:55:07< tschmitz> different arrows being different colors
20110407 03:55:09< gabba> the arrows automatically get the team color, yes
20110407 03:55:20< tschmitz> And it works for multiple people playing on the same computer, at least in the one test run I did
20110407 03:56:13< tschmitz> Hrmm
20110407 03:56:13< gabba> One big rework would be showing planned units a bit differently:
20110407 03:56:43< gabba> right now you still see it at it's original position, with "ghosts" at the waypoints
20110407 03:56:54< tschmitz> Aye
20110407 03:57:26< gabba> Boucman and I had a hard time settling on that or showing the unit at its "future" position, but the latter seems best after having tried this
20110407 03:58:07< gabba> so basically you could change it so you get ghosts at the start and intermediate waypoint, and a unit that looks real at the final one
20110407 03:58:30< tschmitz> In my brainstorm I thought maybe (in the end) there could be a button of some kind that switches between current view and planned view
20110407 03:59:06< tschmitz> but so you think pinning down that kind of planning is something I should have been working on for the proposal?
20110407 03:59:09< gabba> Sure, that would make more people happy, and that was actually my plan at some point
20110407 04:00:31< gabba> Well, this one is pretty big and you should concentrate on the network - I hope to code a few things as well for the whiteboard this summer
20110407 04:00:43< tschmitz> Nice
20110407 04:00:49< gabba> But yeah, I think it should go in the planning
20110407 04:01:08< tschmitz> and in the proposal
20110407 04:01:17< gabba> yup
20110407 04:01:19< tschmitz> OK so,
20110407 04:01:25< fendrin> gabba: wait, let me point you to a forum thread.
20110407 04:01:29< tschmitz> *You've* already planned the network
20110407 04:01:39-!- Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: epyon
20110407 04:01:45-!- Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: Tigge, elias, dariuss, CIA-89, shadowmaster
20110407 04:01:45< tschmitz> so *I* should put planning for other aspects in my proposal?
20110407 04:01:47< tschmitz> (In addition to the network plan)
20110407 04:02:00< gabba> fendrin: sure
20110407 04:02:32< gabba> tschmitz: Hmm, if you think my backend planning for the network is sufficient, just copy and paste
20110407 04:02:44-!- Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: clanehin_, shikadibot
20110407 04:03:01< tschmitz> What about hyperlinking? Or some kind of mixture of the two
20110407 04:03:02< gabba> but I didn't really do any UI planning for interaction between players, that requires thought
20110407 04:03:19-!- Netsplit over, joins: clanehin_, shikadibot
20110407 04:03:22< tschmitz> Right
20110407 04:03:29< tschmitz> I was kind of wondering about players making conflicting planned actions
20110407 04:03:48< tschmitz> As it stands, they just don't conflict with each other at all, as far as I could tell
20110407 04:03:52< gabba> ^either way is good I guess, but copying and personalizing will make your application look much better
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20110407 04:04:07< tschmitz> Hah, right
20110407 04:04:27< tschmitz> I'll start incorporating your work
20110407 04:04:35< fendrin> gabba: http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=33094
20110407 04:04:42< gabba> ^especially for the google folks, not sure they wanna click links all over the place
20110407 04:05:35< tschmitz> How much say does Google have in which candidates are selected?
20110407 04:06:14< epyon> tschmitz, none -- they just set the slot count
20110407 04:06:38< tschmitz> That was what I thought
20110407 04:06:41< gabba> I thought mentors proposed and Google picked (or set the slot count according to application quality)
20110407 04:06:42< epyon> top #slotcount applications get selected
20110407 04:06:45< gabba> Not 100% sure
20110407 04:07:07< epyon> gabba, they don't read them at all AFAIR
20110407 04:07:08< tschmitz> So Google allocates 5 slots to Wesnoth or something
20110407 04:07:19< tschmitz> and Wesnoth mentors select their 5 favorite
20110407 04:07:23< tschmitz> was what I thought.
20110407 04:07:34< tschmitz> Or 3 or 7 or whatnot
20110407 04:07:53< gabba> but the slots allocation is not known until all proposals are submitted
20110407 04:08:16< gabba> so I guess they *may* read some of them... who knows really
20110407 04:08:34< tschmitz> Aye
20110407 04:08:34< epyon> tschmitz, other way around
20110407 04:08:42< tschmitz> Oh?
20110407 04:09:01< epyon> Wesnoth selects their top #X applications, and request X slots
20110407 04:09:15< epyon> Google then gives them Y slots where Y <= X
20110407 04:09:20< tschmitz> K
20110407 04:09:27< tschmitz> Thanks epyon
20110407 04:09:44< epyon> been seeing that happening since 2007 :>
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20110407 04:10:35< gabba> tschmitz: another feature that was very much wanted (one of Boucman's favorites) is the multiple attacks Chance To Kill calculations
20110407 04:10:54< tschmitz> Yeah I liked that one too
20110407 04:11:17< gabba> the good thing about it is that even top-level players might use it
20110407 04:11:33< tschmitz> Heh yeah I suppose that's true
20110407 04:11:48< gabba> they're usually not too interested in the whiteboard, but they'll probably stop calculatin statistics in their head if the game does it for them :P
20110407 04:12:51< tschmitz> I see
20110407 04:12:58< tschmitz> Interesting consideration
20110407 04:13:28< gabba> The bugs might also keep you busy - you could start with some of those if you feel they'll affect your work in some way
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20110407 04:14:20< gabba> Also some aspects need more testing and refining. In particular, I managed to allow out-of-turn planning to happen, but it's not perfect.
20110407 04:15:12< tschmitz> Oh, I haven't even attempted to test out-of-turn planning
20110407 04:15:27< gabba> I know I'm shooting a lot of somewhat random things at you :D
20110407 04:15:52< gabba> I guess I should read your proposal now and comment on it
20110407 04:16:49< gabba> ^I'm pretty proud of OOT planning. You can even plan recruits and see how much gold you've left, and stuff.
20110407 04:16:51< tschmitz> Alas it has still not changed, and in fact I'm the one reading your proposal at the moment, hah
20110407 04:17:17< tschmitz> Yeah I noticed the gold count changing to reflect planned recruits
20110407 04:17:22< gabba> If we make it rock-solid nobody will be able to live without it (muhaha)
20110407 04:17:32< tschmitz> I'm interested to see the off-turn planning now ...
20110407 04:18:30< gabba> fendrin: thread's a bit confusing, it's a FR isn't it?
20110407 04:18:45< fendrin> gabba: Yes, is it.
20110407 04:19:18< fendrin> gabba: What does confuse you?
20110407 04:19:59< fendrin> When I read about ghost units I thought you might be the person who knows best how it could be implemented.
20110407 04:20:04< gabba> fendrin: the start of the thread, I initially thought it was WB-related and couldn't figure out what they were talking about
20110407 04:20:26< gabba> but now I get it
20110407 04:20:26< fendrin> I guess my last post does summarize it pretty good.
20110407 04:21:56< gabba> fendrin: hmm, I see. My first worry is that more ghosted units could get confusing together with the whiteboard
20110407 04:22:22< gabba> but I guess you could work out a radically different appearance, and at least it wouldn't be your own unit
20110407 04:22:52< fendrin> Yeah, another color or something comes to my mind.
20110407 04:23:54< gabba> I'm trying to think if this could actually fit within the WB mandate... which already encompasses way too many things :P
20110407 04:24:25< tschmitz> heh
20110407 04:24:49< gabba> fendrin: Anyways for the technical aspects, displaying a fake unit isn't hard
20110407 04:25:08< gabba> When you want any kind of information on mouseover and stuff like that, it gets much, much more complicated
20110407 04:25:22< tschmitz> I tested out the out-of-turn planning, and I like it, even though the screen still moves to look at enemy moves while you're trying to do stuff
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20110407 04:26:09< fendrin> gabba: I think having the feature to see where the unit can move is an important point of the feature.
20110407 04:26:33< gabba> tschmitz: there's an option (that predates the whiteboard) to disable tracking of enemy moves
20110407 04:26:38< tschmitz> Seems like these ideas, and the whiteboard ideas, would eventually warrant an update to the Tutorial scenario, introducing them
20110407 04:26:47< tschmitz> Cool
20110407 04:27:10< gabba> tschmitz: the option could maybe kick-in automatically if you enable the whiteboard
20110407 04:27:29< gabba> you taking notes ;) ?
20110407 04:27:45< tschmitz> I started to hah
20110407 04:27:59< tschmitz> Although of course my goal is filling out the proposal
20110407 04:28:33< gabba> reworking the tutorial or making a whiteboard-specific one is needed actually, good point
20110407 04:29:06< gabba> another idea for the idea bucket... you're gonna have a hard time prioritizing
20110407 04:29:20< tschmitz> Well if nothing else, I can add all these things to the brainstorm and then figure out the "real" proposal
20110407 04:29:33< gabba> that's the way I'd do it
20110407 04:29:54< tschmitz> Gee I sure hope I can go ahead and work on this stuff this summer
20110407 04:30:20< tschmitz> If I don't get picked, I'll have to think about whether I should be doing something else instead
20110407 04:30:30< tschmitz> I applied for some internships and whatnot
20110407 04:30:48< gabba> Yeah, dual-planning like that is hard
20110407 04:32:07< gabba> A few remarks about your current proposal:
20110407 04:32:43< gabba> tschmitz: "The proposed project will address these, building on Gabba's foundation and polishing off the whiteboard system once and for all." : Sounds a bit unfocused and too ambitious... the once and for all part.
20110407 04:34:43< gabba> tschmitz: "Additional data: On what turn will this action take place? Allows planning a delayed task (does anyone actually ever do that?)" <-- Much needed!
20110407 04:35:03< tschmitz> So a "yes" on that question?
20110407 04:36:08< gabba> There's currently a "hidden" waypoint system that allows you to force a move through an intermediate hex (not whiteboard-related): this functionality really needs to be merged with the WB
20110407 04:36:16< gabba> ^definitely a yes
20110407 04:36:59< gabba> Multi-turn planning is very much desirable, it could replace current multi-turn moves if done properly
20110407 04:37:15< nagbot2> Time for a small public service announcement
20110407 04:37:18< nagbot2> To all gsoc students:
20110407 04:37:21< nagbot2> Make sure you commit your proposal at google soon, don't wait until the latest moment just to discover your internet connection is down
20110407 04:37:23< nagbot2> http://www.google-melange.com/gsoc/profile/student/google/gsoc2011?org=wesnoth
20110407 04:37:25-!- sheraff is now known as gsoc_trichu
20110407 04:37:25< nagbot2> The deadline for the application is friday, april 8th, at 19:00 UTC (12:00 PST)
20110407 04:37:27< nagbot2> Everyone not enlisted in the google tracker at that time will have *no* chance to participate with Wesnoth as part of summer of code 2011, no matter how good you communicated with us or *whatever* 
20110407 04:37:29< nagbot2> You have been warned.
20110407 04:37:31< nagbot2> The more good patches you submit, the better
20110407 04:37:32< nagbot2> Discuss your ideas here - get important feedback from developers
20110407 04:38:39< gabba> nagbot2: you little spammer
20110407 04:38:56< gabba> tschmitz: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/GSoC-WesnothWhiteboard_Gabba#Annoying_gotos_.28solution.29
20110407 04:39:21< tschmitz> Yeah I noticed the waypoint bug in the bug tracker
20110407 04:39:55< gabba> Right now if you move, say, an elvish scout to a remote part of the map, you already get a display of where it'll get in 1, 2, 3, x turns
20110407 04:40:15< gabba> This may have to stay in parallel to the WB for people who don't use planning mode
20110407 04:40:54< gabba> But the WB should absolutely have something similar - I disabled it since I lacked time to design and add proper visuals for it
20110407 04:41:28< gabba> Also those "gotos" auto-execute at the turn's beginning (horrible in my view)
20110407 04:41:55< gabba> The WB's version will be much superior, since its "gotos" will stay as planned actions that you can delete, modify, etc.
20110407 04:42:59< gabba> Usually it doesn't make much sense to plan multi-turn moves, but in some cases you do want to move a unit over several turns in a zone far from the main battlefield
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20110407 04:44:47< gabba> "Additional data: attacks will include information about whether the player wishes to assume the defender will die or not, and also whether the attacker will die or not" AND "When planning an attack move, an additional dialogue will ask the player for their guess regarding the outcome of the battle"
20110407 04:45:50< gabba> The second quote especially is an absolute no :P -- if I understand it well, it kind of shows you haven't played much Wesnoth yet
20110407 04:46:07< gabba> Oh god would it get annoying as hell if you get that every time you plan an attack
20110407 04:47:57< gabba> This said, a context menu option "assume dead" that you can use on enemy units makes sense. Boucman and I liked it as well as a few other people, but it has to be seen in-game to know if it'll really be that useful.
20110407 04:48:07< tschmitz> Yeah I played two years ago, but even then, I found messing with WML to be more interesting than playing
20110407 04:48:30< gabba> Heh
20110407 04:49:08< gabba> I'll recommend you what they told me: try and play somewhat regularly on the MP server
20110407 04:49:17< tschmitz> So dialog -> context menu option, or something like that
20110407 04:49:32< gabba> You'll get a much better feeling for what makes sense
20110407 04:49:36< tschmitz> Hah, yeah ... about that
20110407 04:49:46< tschmitz> You're certainly right,
20110407 04:49:51< tschmitz> but ...
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20110407 04:49:54< tschmitz> you know how it is
20110407 04:50:19< tschmitz> at least until the end of the quarter, I'll be spending my time on my course overload
20110407 04:51:18< gabba> Well, I suppose you'll still spend some time preparing for GSoC?
20110407 04:51:19< tschmitz> I might find time for a few games, I dunno ... I'll find out after I write this proposal, hah ...
20110407 04:51:49< tschmitz> Yeah I'm hoping it'll be what I look forward to doing between homeworks
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20110407 04:52:06< tschmitz> kind of like what I've been doing for the past week, a little bit
20110407 04:52:13< gabba> Consider those game as "work" for the project, as much as delving in the code really.
20110407 04:52:24< tschmitz> Right
20110407 04:52:57< gabba> You don't want to design an interface you're not extensively using yourself, that would be cruel for those poor players ;)
20110407 04:53:12< tschmitz> Yeah, I know ...
20110407 04:53:37< gabba> Ok, I'll finish with the comments on the proposal
20110407 04:53:44< tschmitz> Heh ...
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20110407 04:53:51< tschmitz> Right, that thing ...
20110407 04:54:45< gabba> " "Itinerary view" (text list) of planned actions, listed in order and categorized by turn number." <-- Interesting, there are several approaches possible with this
20110407 04:55:28< gabba> My idea (which may by no mean be the best) was to add replay-like controls so you can review your planned actions in the order you defined them.
20110407 04:56:10< gabba> After a lot of planning the screen can look like a mess (it'll probably be much better if we implement units showing at their future instead of real position, but still)
20110407 04:56:30< gabba> So some mean of reviewing or filtering planned actions would be useful
20110407 04:56:43< gabba> The problem is how to make it non-obnoxious to use
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20110407 04:57:29< gabba> For stuff like this, a few mockups really help
20110407 04:57:53< gabba> And yeah, I know you're short on time... but I mention it since you'll need them once you start working, if not now.
20110407 04:58:46< tschmitz> Mockups?
20110407 04:58:53< tschmitz> Yeah I would hope I wouldn't be so short on time as to
20110407 04:59:04< gabba> " Foresight view" for allowing one to view the future state of the battlefield" <-- Ok so we discussed this one already I think
20110407 04:59:07< tschmitz> consider those ... a waste of time
20110407 04:59:30< gabba> Yes, mockups like this: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/GSoC-WesnothWhiteboard_Gabba#Interface
20110407 04:59:40< tschmitz> Yep, fairly certain I looked at those
20110407 04:59:44< gabba> I did those screens before I wrote a single line of whiteboard code
20110407 05:00:08< gabba> And many revisions were scrapped before I felt confident they would work in-game
20110407 05:01:33< gabba> Ok, so that concludes my remarks on the proposal as it is
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20110407 05:06:31< tschmitz> Thank you
20110407 05:06:38< tschmitz> I'm editing the brainstorm for the moment ...
20110407 05:08:05< tschmitz> and after that I'll have to move things over into the "legitimate plans" section (yet to exist ...)
20110407 05:09:23< gabba> tschmitz: Different topic, but if you want to try and get commit access before mentors finish discussin the applications, instead of solving another bug you could pick something from what we discussed that sounds moderately easy, and have a go at implementing it
20110407 05:10:03< gabba> I think extending moves and attack-moves to be able to last several turns would qualify as moderately easy
20110407 05:10:04< tschmitz> Heh, yeah that's true
20110407 05:10:06< tschmitz> Before they finish discussing?
20110407 05:10:32< gabba> Well, after you submit your application they won't decide who to pick in the next second
20110407 05:10:42< tschmitz> Right,
20110407 05:10:55< tschmitz> will I suddenly look btter with commit access?
20110407 05:11:08< gabba> I don't know their planning (you could ask ;) ), but IMO that leaves you a bit of time to stand out from the crowd 
20110407 05:11:27< tschmitz> Yeah presumably, hm
20110407 05:11:50< gabba> tschmitz: commit access is symbolic, but that means you'll have submitted two good patches, and that means a lot
20110407 05:12:10< gabba> mention the one you did on your page, btw
20110407 05:12:14< gabba> i.e. link it
20110407 05:12:16< tschmitz> Oh right
20110407 05:12:20< tschmitz> forgot about that
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20110407 05:14:49< tschmitz> It seemed like a rather small patch to me, I dunno
20110407 05:16:25< gabba> Sure, but it took you quite a bit of research in the code, and it was clean
20110407 05:17:20< gabba> I don't want to dump my backlog of wesnoth tasks on you, but another alternative to get a second patch in would be to take over this and update it for current trunk: https://gna.org/patch/?1381
20110407 05:17:51< gabba> Boucman thinks its easy and would really like to close the issue 
20110407 05:18:51< gabba> Me, I'd favor doing something related to the WB, but you see what you can do
20110407 05:20:35< tschmitz> Configurable village support
20110407 05:20:56< tschmitz> What's the remaining part of that task, exactly?
20110407 05:21:03< tschmitz> I couldn't quite tell from the comments, not right off at least
20110407 05:21:12< gabba> It's supposed to be done
20110407 05:21:24< tschmitz> but the patch doesn't mesh with the repository or something?
20110407 05:21:25< gabba> So it needs syncing with current trunk
20110407 05:21:29< gabba> and of course testing
20110407 05:22:06< gabba> Well if you look at the dates it's quite old, so trunk may have moved a lot since, I really don't know
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20110407 05:45:32< tschmitz> Should I assume in my timeline that I start work precisely on the begin date (May 23)?
20110407 05:46:24< tschmitz> (kind of an odd time to start, being roughly in the middle-to-end of my school term still)
20110407 05:46:25< gabba> If you can start earlier, better, otherwise yes
20110407 05:47:00< gabba> Arrangements are always possible though
20110407 05:47:09< tschmitz> So no need to wait 'til that day, and I might as well write the timeline around my more realistic schedule?
20110407 05:47:24< gabba> Yes, make it as realistic as possible
20110407 05:47:29< tschmitz> Or ...
20110407 05:48:37< gabba> Just mention the various time periods you'll go through and your availability in those, and then plan around that
20110407 05:48:49< tschmitz> Hum, I wonder how much time I'll have on average between classes and whatnot
20110407 05:48:54< tschmitz> Right
20110407 05:49:33< gabba> Try and set clear milestones too, with major ones corresponding to the Google ones
20110407 05:50:30< gabba> There's only one really, the midterm evaluation
20110407 05:50:38< tschmitz> Right
20110407 05:50:55< tschmitz> Thanks
20110407 05:51:07< gabba> np
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20110407 07:27:33< tschmitz> Hey gabba
20110407 07:29:03< gabba> yup :)
20110407 07:29:17< tschmitz> I am developing my timeline and I would probably like to bounce the ideas off you if possible
20110407 07:29:39< tschmitz> I just thought I would ask when you think you're going to sleep or otherwise offline
20110407 07:29:39< gabba> Go ahead, I'm still on for a little while
20110407 07:29:50< tschmitz> A little while, you say
20110407 07:30:30< tschmitz> OK well I will put what I have on my wiki page ...
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20110407 07:31:24< gabba> tschmitz: I'll probably still be online for 1h or 1h30, but afk some of that time
20110407 07:31:57< tschmitz> OK I saved the wiki page
20110407 07:32:19< tschmitz> Um, I was in the process of trying to put the ideas in some kind of order
20110407 07:32:32< tschmitz> and hopefully break them down into smaller tasks so it's more specific
20110407 07:32:42< tschmitz> though I didn't yet get very far.
20110407 07:33:18 * gabba looks
20110407 07:34:56< tschmitz> So I added I think 6 bullet points into a new section called Timeline-to-be
20110407 07:35:08< tschmitz> er, I guess 7 ...
20110407 07:35:16< tschmitz> Nope, 6
20110407 07:35:38< tschmitz> Anyway, pretending that didn't happen just now,
20110407 07:35:53< gabba> Ok, so the brainstorm part looks like a pretty accurate summary of what we discussed, and the timeline skeleton makes sense
20110407 07:36:23< tschmitz> Right, I forgot I updated the brainstorm as well
20110407 07:37:07< tschmitz> So my thought was that my next step is just putting the ideas in the order that I would add them in
20110407 07:37:09< gabba> "Choose between config or raw data for network representation" : I'm not even sure you have the choice of not using config, unless you want to bypass a good part of the network architecture
20110407 07:37:12< tschmitz> i.e. prioritizing them
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20110407 07:37:43< tschmitz> I saw a function called something along the line of send_raw_data, I think, though I didn't look closely at it
20110407 07:37:56< gabba> very possible
20110407 07:38:44< tschmitz> Either method will require serializing the data structure in some sense, so
20110407 07:39:00< tschmitz> because I don't suppose you have a config representation of it yet, right?
20110407 07:39:18< gabba> right, exactly
20110407 07:39:22< tschmitz> OK
20110407 07:39:51< tschmitz> so like I said, simply adding network facilities to the features that exist already shouldn't be a particularly big deal ...
20110407 07:40:14< tschmitz> at least it doesn't look that way in those 5 bullet points
20110407 07:40:14< tschmitz> Although it will take some time
20110407 07:40:53< tschmitz> So, those 5 bullet points. Does that seem like a reasonable level of dividing that task into sub-tasks?
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20110407 07:42:12< gabba> Personal preference: I'd number the top-level items, since a lot of nested bullet point levels become hard to read
20110407 07:42:40< tschmitz> Yeah I saw your template
20110407 07:42:43< tschmitz> ... uh
20110407 07:42:44< gabba> The wiki can auto-number them for free :)
20110407 07:42:50< tschmitz> or rather I saw your
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20110407 07:42:55< tschmitz> page.
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20110407 07:45:03< gabba> tschmitz: so yeah, no objections up to now... I mean as long as it's readable, it's good
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20110407 07:46:01< tschmitz> So next task being prioritizing the list of ideas sounds good? and explaining the steps required for them in more detail?
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20110407 07:46:26< tschmitz> And then I'll just map the prioritized list onto the calendar?
20110407 07:48:58< gabba> tschmitz: yes. I think prioritizing should really end up in you picking what you really wanna do and think you have the time to do. Put that in your timeline;
20110407 07:49:24< gabba> then have an optional section (that doesn't really need a timeline) where things are simply put in order of priority
20110407 07:49:44< gabba> well, the optional section can end your timeline, but I think you see what I mean
20110407 07:49:49< tschmitz> OK I'll go ahead and do that
20110407 07:50:02< tschmitz> Some of the ideas aren't fully fleshed out in my mind I don't think, though
20110407 07:51:34< gabba> try to flesh them out, but especially to define the boundaries of the problem i.e. the limits of what you want to cover/achieve
20110407 07:51:41< tschmitz> We said yes to planning multi-turn moves, but what about planning a delayed move? One where the unit plans to stand still during the current turn, but do something else next turn
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20110407 07:52:30 * gabba thinks
20110407 07:52:40< tschmitz> Or does the player just decide not to execute that particular action
20110407 07:52:44< tschmitz> and save it for next turn
20110407 07:52:57< tschmitz> (prevents the use of the execute all button in that case)
20110407 07:53:20< gabba> nah, probably not useful
20110407 07:53:24< tschmitz> Anyway, this is an example of a details question that I haven't quite yet figured out
20110407 07:53:27< tschmitz> especially since it probably warrants discussion
20110407 07:53:36< gabba> the situation can change so much from one turn to the next...
20110407 07:54:14< tschmitz> How about making the unit plan a multi-turn move where it moves less than its full movement speed on some of the turns?
20110407 07:54:37< gabba> there was much opposition from some people to even planning beyond the result of an attack, and they had good points
20110407 07:55:04< gabba> So planning beyond one turn except for scouting or remembering to get a village... whew
20110407 07:55:26< tschmitz> Yeah I dunno
20110407 07:55:35< tschmitz> Heh, especially since I don't play
20110407 07:56:01< tschmitz> but in any case, my main point was basically ...
20110407 07:56:05< gabba> yeah, that's a problem, you'll have to get up to speed with that
20110407 07:56:19< tschmitz> including details in my proposal
20110407 07:56:27< tschmitz> about these ideas
20110407 07:56:46< gabba> but I'd say until you accumulate more playing experience, stay away from stuff that might change the gameplay too much... people are gonna make round eyes when they read them
20110407 07:57:22< tschmitz> Heh, OK
20110407 07:57:38< gabba> "How about making the unit plan a multi-turn move where it moves less than its full movement speed on some of the turns?" <-- you might have something here...
20110407 07:58:19< gabba> funnily enough, it makes me think about how you can enter a "page break" in word processors, except here it would be a turn break
20110407 07:58:31< tschmitz> It's basically the same issue, since if I wanted to plan something for after waiting 5 turns, I would just have it mill about for 5 turns
20110407 07:58:41< gabba> Interesting but I can't think of a use case for it, really
20110407 07:58:44< tschmitz> Yeah that's an interesting point
20110407 07:59:09< tschmitz> Yeah I'm not sure either
20110407 07:59:33< gabba> You *could* introduce an "idle for one turn" action
20110407 07:59:44< tschmitz> you generally have a destination ... and if it's within movement range, that's the only time you consider using fewer than your full movement to get there
20110407 08:00:21< gabba> Only use I can see is as a reminder that you want to do something on turn three
20110407 08:00:40< gabba> ^yes but in that case you probably won't define any movement beyond that
20110407 08:00:56< tschmitz> Yeah exactly
20110407 08:01:15< gabba> also remember that taking an enemy village takes all your movement, those are natural waypoints
20110407 08:01:23< tschmitz> Yep
20110407 08:01:30< gabba> (rather: end your movement)
20110407 08:03:23< tschmitz> Anyway, I'll write up my task list I guess and then perhaps ask you about some of the items on it
20110407 08:03:23< tschmitz> maybe that'll work
20110407 08:03:45< tschmitz> gabba: Will you be around tomorrow? Fortunately, I only have one class tomorrow, so most of my day is open
20110407 08:04:23< gabba> Yes, I'll probably coding from home all afternoon
20110407 08:04:44< gabba> s/probably/probably be/
20110407 08:05:59< tschmitz> All right cool
20110407 08:07:57< zaroth> mordante: I added lines from gamestate_inspector.cpp labeled "workaround for assertion failure" and it worked... so it's probably a known bug ;-)
20110407 08:08:10< zaroth> but nevertheless, it was quite confusing
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20110407 08:12:02< tschmitz> gabba: So regarding the cumulative battle probability analysis
20110407 08:12:28< tschmitz> does it include probable damage from attacks planned by allies?
20110407 08:13:23< tschmitz> Is that a preferences option?
20110407 08:14:11< tschmitz> Should both types of probability information appear on mouseover or via a context menu button or something?
20110407 08:22:30< tschmitz> Regarding ally suggestions ... perhaps an arrow will immediately appear bearing the team colors of both the suggesting player and the player receiving the suggestion? And a context menu option to accept (or reject) the suggestion as the next planned action?
20110407 08:25:56< gabba> tschmitz: was afk, reading
20110407 08:28:04< gabba> tschmitz: interesting question
20110407 08:28:07< tschmitz> Regarding "assumed dead" planning ... presumably the player's allies will not be interested in the fact that that player made such an "assumption of death," but they'll be interested in the plans that might be made under the assumption that a unit will be gone
20110407 08:29:39< gabba> re cumulative probability, you could perhaps have a radio button in the dialogue that shows the stats, to take into account or not attacks planned by allies
20110407 08:30:31< tschmitz> Sounds reasonable
20110407 08:30:51< gabba> I could see that becoming useful OOT, or perhaps when adding an ally to add his "attack weight" to your own to see what the outcome would be
20110407 08:31:21< tschmitz> Yeah
20110407 08:31:37< tschmitz> Are there situations when you wouldn't want to include your allies' damage?
20110407 08:31:40< gabba> Actually the default could be always take allies into account... if they bother you by planning attacks to the same unit, ask them to stop :P ... just jot the alternatives down really
20110407 08:32:44< gabba> ^usually you're mostly interested in whether you'll take them out during your turn
20110407 08:33:14< tschmitz> Also regarding the cumulative probability, I'm sure I could do it, but as of this moment I have no idea how I would
20110407 08:33:26< tschmitz> so
20110407 08:33:35< gabba> All I know is that Crab_ already does it for the AI
20110407 08:33:45< tschmitz> in terms of including details of that part of the project in the proposal ...
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20110407 08:33:56< gabba> it looked a bit complicated to figure out
20110407 08:34:24< tschmitz> Right but, well, I'm not sure what I would write in my proposal about the details of that task
20110407 08:34:30< tschmitz> since I don't know exactly what the details will be
20110407 08:34:44< zaroth_> tschmitz: I think if you plan on adding this feature, you shouldn't limit yourself to allies, but mutual enemies as well!
20110407 08:34:50< gabba> sure, you can just describe how it works now, and what you intend to add
20110407 08:35:08< zaroth_> because sometime campaigns include "animals" teams, which can attack both you and your enemy
20110407 08:35:22< zaroth_> and it'd be actually nice to see what ctk do they got on your units together
20110407 08:35:33< gabba> zaroth_: ah but you can't see enemies' plans :)
20110407 08:35:36< tschmitz> and then on the timeline, I would just not have very many details about that part of the project?
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20110407 08:36:06< zaroth_> gabba: at least cumulating enemies ctk on your units would be *very* useful then
20110407 08:36:06< gabba> zaroth_: unless... yeah, defining fake moves for the enemy to simulate an attack on you would be interesting
20110407 08:36:23< gabba> tschmitz: ^ hear, hear
20110407 08:36:30< zaroth_> and by *very* I mean *very very very* ;-)
20110407 08:36:44< zaroth_> I often wonder in MP how solid is my unit wall
20110407 08:36:54< gabba> that would fit in the same area/interface as "suggested moves"
20110407 08:37:08< zaroth_> and it's obviously as solid as the weakest link
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20110407 08:38:29< gabba> tschmitz: so yeah, that's definitely a good idea zaroth_ had... I think it came up during brainstorming last year, among so much other stuff
20110407 08:38:36< gabba> s/had/has/
20110407 08:38:43< tschmitz> Yeah I would agree
20110407 08:39:32< tschmitz> basically extending your ability to "pretend" to ... as far as we possibly can
20110407 08:39:50< zaroth_> I'm glad that whiteboard finally got a serious student who wants to work on it, much luck with your proposal, tschimtz ;-)
20110407 08:40:02< zaroth_> s/tschimtz/tschmitz/
20110407 08:40:15< tschmitz> Thanks, zaroth_
20110407 08:40:22< tschmitz> and the same to you.
20110407 08:40:41< zaroth_> see you!
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20110407 08:42:06< gabba> tschmitz: ok, about the assumption of death, I'd share it just the same. Actually you can't really share just part of the planned actions unless they're purely cosmetic, otherwise the "future unit map" becomes impossible to build on the recipient's side
20110407 08:42:17< gabba> So might as well show it
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20110407 08:42:58< tschmitz> So basically each team of allies shares a single planning whiteboard
20110407 08:43:15< tschmitz> although there are limitations on their ability to make plans for each other
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20110407 08:44:18< gabba> for suggestions, I think you've got the right idea (arrow appearance/context menu)
20110407 08:44:33< tschmitz> OK
20110407 08:44:48< gabba> ^well in the backend, it's one set of planned actions per player
20110407 08:45:26< tschmitz> but the future unit map
20110407 08:45:29< gabba> but logically, you apply them all in turn order, so people further down the queue can plan according to people playing before them
20110407 08:46:05< tschmitz> Hm, right
20110407 08:46:11< tschmitz> but from a user perspective, maybe is what I mean
20110407 08:46:24< tschmitz> the perception is that what you see is what your ally sees
20110407 08:46:48< gabba> yeah, from the users' perspective it's one big whiteboard
20110407 08:46:49< tschmitz> (and your enemy just sees the real deal, about your units)
20110407 08:47:09< tschmitz> OK
20110407 08:47:37< tschmitz> so that pretty much takes care of the "assume dead" problems, if there were any
20110407 08:48:15< gabba> Yeah... I'm having a doubt about what happens if your ally that plays after you designates a unit as "assumed dead"
20110407 08:48:59< tschmitz> oh heh, yeah
20110407 08:49:01< gabba> Probably not much, actually, since this "action" takes place in the future after all actions of your own
20110407 08:49:15< tschmitz> So you think it should be an action
20110407 08:49:19< tschmitz> or
20110407 08:49:35< tschmitz> in my original brainstorm, the assumption of death was attached to an attack planned action
20110407 08:49:36< gabba> "assume dead" only has effects on actions that come after it; for instance you can pathfind through it *after* its dead
20110407 08:50:10< gabba> ^oh yeah I forgot about your idea of attaching it to an attack
20110407 08:50:29< gabba> I originally planned to make it an action
20110407 08:50:42< tschmitz> In either case,
20110407 08:50:57< tschmitz> what happens if your ally that plays after you assumes dead (like you said), and then ... during your turn, now you want to assume it's dead sometime during your turn
20110407 08:51:33< tschmitz> that invalidates any attack actions that your ally planned on that enemy unit, perhaps
20110407 08:51:53< gabba> I *think* the action is more handy, since it makes it easy to test a "what-if" scenario: if this unit isn't there anymore, can I get to the leader?
20110407 08:52:17< gabba> yeah, stacked assume dead actions lol
20110407 08:52:47< gabba> backend-wise it shouldn't really matter (probably no need to delete anything)
20110407 08:52:58< tschmitz> Yeah I think these actions, in some sense, are in separate categories
20110407 08:53:08< gabba> interface-wise I guess you'd just show the current one and hide the future player's
20110407 08:53:52< tschmitz> the assume dead and the "what if my enemy attacked me here?" are "what-if" things
20110407 08:53:59< tschmitz> which are definitely useful
20110407 08:54:15< tschmitz> but ...
20110407 08:54:17< gabba> in the backend the only thing to watch for is that we're really modifying the unit's state (in this case, probably removing it altogether from the unit map), so careful about "tried to remove twice" bugs and the like
20110407 08:54:37< tschmitz> Hm, definitely
20110407 08:54:46< gabba> we could get easily into pointer issues
20110407 08:55:05< tschmitz> From what I was saying before, it's definitely also true that "normal" planned actions are also "what-if" scenario things
20110407 08:55:08< tschmitz> but ...
20110407 08:55:45< tschmitz> OK I think I figured out part of what might be causing me to think there's a problem
20110407 08:56:01< tschmitz> When you and I are allies in a game of Wesnoth, 
20110407 08:56:40< tschmitz> and it's my turn and I'm making plans, I'm building a stack of planned actions
20110407 08:57:16< tschmitz> when you are making plans on my turn, you are building a stack of planned actions on top of my stack, which means the stack is getting edited in multiple "places"
20110407 08:57:33< tschmitz> (or "times" maybe ...)
20110407 08:58:34< tschmitz> so I guess if we think of it that way, then it would make sense for my plans to invalidate your plans if there is a conflict
20110407 08:58:47< tschmitz> e.g. too many assume dead scenarios on a single unit
20110407 08:59:18< gabba> I understand what you say. The "saving grace" here is that there's a strict ordering between your actions and my actions, so I can't place an action between two of yours.
20110407 08:59:30< tschmitz> yeah
20110407 08:59:33< tschmitz> so basically,
20110407 08:59:36< gabba> But you're right that the current player's action might invalidate a lot of stuff "down the stack"
20110407 08:59:36< tschmitz> the person with the current turn
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20110407 08:59:43< tschmitz> has the floor
20110407 08:59:45< tschmitz> in some sense
20110407 08:59:49< tschmitz> maybe that's the way to do it.
20110407 09:00:08< tschmitz> Although, since we will probably change the behavior of invalid actions so that they don't immediately expire,
20110407 09:00:09< gabba> exact, any planning you do if it's not your turn might be crushed by the current player's
20110407 09:00:20< tschmitz> (which I should add to the list ...)
20110407 09:00:35< gabba> yes, excellent point about the invalid actions
20110407 09:01:29< tschmitz> OK so now ... my assume dead actions are distinct from your assume dead actions
20110407 09:01:32< tschmitz> that's probably a good thing
20110407 09:01:46< gabba> by tolerating invalid actions you can more or less keep your plans even though the person with the current turn keeps messing them up
20110407 09:01:50< tschmitz> So can I suggest that you take an assume dead action?
20110407 09:01:57< gabba> sure
20110407 09:02:06< tschmitz> heh
20110407 09:02:09< tschmitz> That's ... funny.
20110407 09:02:20< gabba> it is :D
20110407 09:02:41< tschmitz> yeah I guess it kind of makes sense ...
20110407 09:02:49< gabba> probably even more when reading your sentence with a victorian-era british accent
20110407 09:02:54< tschmitz> In fact
20110407 09:03:39< tschmitz> if I suggest you attack a unit, then suggest you assume that that unit dies, and then suggest that you move through its ZOC to attack a unit behind it
20110407 09:03:40< tschmitz> or something
20110407 09:03:46< tschmitz> I suppose that seems valid
20110407 09:04:04< tschmitz> OK hold on
20110407 09:04:08< tschmitz> suggestions
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20110407 09:04:24< tschmitz> don't immediately get placed in the planned action stack
20110407 09:04:33< tschmitz> er, vector, or what? I dunno
20110407 09:04:35< tschmitz> stack I guess
20110407 09:04:57< gabba> Makes sense especially in the context of "let me hold your hand and show you what I'd do for a moment" by an expert player
20110407 09:05:05< tschmitz> So if I make a suggestion to another player ...
20110407 09:05:12< gabba> ^I use a deque, but doesn't matter
20110407 09:05:25< tschmitz> well,
20110407 09:05:34< tschmitz> the idea of the suggestion is that
20110407 09:05:47< tschmitz> that other player can decide if they want to add it to their planned actions list
20110407 09:05:49< automagic> tschmitz: My guess would be a queue, but I don't know what you're talking about.
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20110407 09:06:10< tschmitz> but
20110407 09:06:17< gabba> deque = double-ended queue, it's an stl data structure
20110407 09:06:30< tschmitz> Yes
20110407 09:06:39< tschmitz> so but regarding the suggestion of actions
20110407 09:07:05< tschmitz> Back to my example, it's my turn and you are my ally who moves after me
20110407 09:07:22< tschmitz> Now you are much better than me at wesnoth so you make a suggestion to me
20110407 09:07:52< tschmitz> Where in the queue does that suggestion exist?
20110407 09:08:05< gabba> yes, very good question
20110407 09:08:16< tschmitz> Probably at the end of my list
20110407 09:08:28< gabba> maybe in a separate list?
20110407 09:08:36< tschmitz> maybe
20110407 09:08:42< gabba> one per ally
20110407 09:09:02< tschmitz> So like
20110407 09:09:14< tschmitz> when you make a suggestion to me
20110407 09:09:22< tschmitz> that I attack a particular unit for example
20110407 09:09:42< tschmitz> or instead, let the suggestion just me that I move to a particular place
20110407 09:10:03< tschmitz> Since I haven't accepted the suggestion, the unit still exists at the old location for me, even on my future-unit-map
20110407 09:10:35< tschmitz> So I can plan to move the unit somewhere else and invalidate your suggestion
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20110407 09:10:49< tschmitz> I guess?
20110407 09:11:02< tschmitz> Or, alternatively
20110407 09:11:22< gabba> If we forget about the data structure distinction, I guess if you don't act on it right away and add more actions, yes it keeps getting pushed down at the end of the list, and might become invalid
20110407 09:11:24< tschmitz> I can plan to move some other unrelated unit, in which case your suggestion remains valid even though I changed something
20110407 09:12:01< tschmitz> so it always lives at the end of my list of planned actions
20110407 09:12:08< tschmitz> I guess?
20110407 09:12:15< tschmitz> because that's where it would go if I accepted it
20110407 09:12:22< gabba> yes, I think that makes sense
20110407 09:12:22< tschmitz> at the end
20110407 09:12:27< tschmitz> and furthermore
20110407 09:12:41< gabba> It would be too complicated to allow suggesting actions in the middle of someone's action queue
20110407 09:13:02< tschmitz> like you said, there exists a whole list of those suggestions
20110407 09:13:02< tschmitz> specially from you to me
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20110407 09:13:43< tschmitz> so once you've suggested that I make an attack, you can also suggest that I make an assume dead, and finally suggest that I make another move through the ZOC that disappeared
20110407 09:14:13< tschmitz> and our third ally can make unrelated suggestions to me
20110407 09:14:34< tschmitz> which live in conceptually the same location as your suggestions, just in a different quantum universe
20110407 09:14:38< gabba> a possible interface I imagine for this is click a player's name/image (or maybe context menu on his units) to "impersonate". Then any planned actions you define are interpreted as suggestions to that ally
20110407 09:15:00< tschmitz> Ah, interesting
20110407 09:15:10< gabba> of course in most cases you could just click his unit and define moves the usual way I guess
20110407 09:15:14< tschmitz> I figured it would just be moving his units
20110407 09:15:45< tschmitz> I suppose you're right about certain things like the assume dead action
20110407 09:16:08< gabba> ^^the third ally's suggestions would live after the current player's actions and after the second ally's suggestions
20110407 09:16:49< tschmitz> but what if you told me to attack with my unit,
20110407 09:16:58< tschmitz> and the third ally told me to retreat with that unit instead?
20110407 09:17:01< gabba> impersonating might also be needed for suggesting recruits/recalls, I haven't given much thought to it
20110407 09:18:00< gabba> "and the third ally told me to retreat with that unit instead?" --> the third ally will only be able to give an order starting from the unit location *after* all planned orders
20110407 09:18:04< tschmitz> Yeah I suppose you're right about that one, if there is a castle with multiple keeps
20110407 09:18:21< tschmitz> but I haven't planned anything for that unit yet
20110407 09:18:40< gabba> ah ok I see what you mean
20110407 09:18:56< tschmitz> You guys want to give me conflicting suggestions, essentially
20110407 09:19:23< gabba> yeah, here I'm not sure...
20110407 09:19:33< tschmitz> Quantum universe seems like the way to go ...
20110407 09:19:35< tschmitz> lol
20110407 09:19:54< gabba> :P
20110407 09:20:07< gabba> Actually, probably just show them all. This is where filters (and player etiquette) will come handy
20110407 09:20:22< gabba> so, quantum universe FTW
20110407 09:20:28< tschmitz> well yes, 
20110407 09:20:38< tschmitz> OK so you understood what I meant about the quantum universe?
20110407 09:21:08< gabba> yeah, parallel realities isn't it?
20110407 09:21:41< tschmitz> I think basically there will be one *real* planned action queue for me, and then your suggestions will be layered on top of my real planned action queue, and third ally's suggestions will also be layered on top of my real action queue
20110407 09:22:16< gabba> hmm. Actually, it won't be possible to display two sequences of suggestions simultaneously I think
20110407 09:22:24< tschmitz> so in our game where there are only three of us on this team, in some sense there will exist three separate planned action queues and future-unit-maps for me: The real one, the real one plus your suggestions, and the real one plus the third ally's suggestions.
20110407 09:22:39< gabba> It's not just a question of clutter, it's that the moving of units in the unit map will become impossible
20110407 09:23:18< tschmitz> you mean
20110407 09:23:38< tschmitz> the add_temp_changes() or whatever it was called (I don't think that was it ...)
20110407 09:23:50< gabba> yeah exactly, and I guess that if you're seeing ally 2's suggestions, you'll get a messenger-like notification "Ally 3 has suggestions for you waiting in a parallel universe!" -- or something of the sort
20110407 09:24:20< tschmitz> Well like I said there could be three separate future_unit_maps (aw man ...)
20110407 09:24:33< gabba> ha ha
20110407 09:24:40< tschmitz> the real one is the one I work with when I'm trying to take my turn and stuff
20110407 09:24:53< tschmitz> the two fake ones are there so that you guys can make suggestions to me
20110407 09:25:03< gabba> Actually there's still a single unit map, we just swap it back and forth very quickly between current and future state
20110407 09:25:17< tschmitz> presumably that would also work
20110407 09:25:31< tschmitz> yeah, I think
20110407 09:25:41< tschmitz> but yes
20110407 09:25:48< tschmitz> Yes
20110407 09:25:59< gabba> Well, that's how the whole WB is built. So there's no problem with choosing to build the future state with suggestions for ally 2 or ally 3, but you can't have both
20110407 09:26:29< tschmitz> well it will be with neither
20110407 09:26:36< tschmitz> until I start accepting some suggestions
20110407 09:26:56< gabba> of course
20110407 09:27:22< tschmitz> and once I start accepting suggestions, then of course the other guy's suggestions become invalid, if ... well, if they should become invalid
20110407 09:27:46< gabba> so that reinforces the idea to keep suggestions in their own backend data structure, so we can swap them at will
20110407 09:28:14< tschmitz> but as for displaying them on the screen, we can temporarily build apply one person's suggestions, draw it, undo the suggestions, apply the other person's suggestions, draw it, and then undo those suggestions
20110407 09:28:19< tschmitz> Right?
20110407 09:28:23< tschmitz> Or something along that line
20110407 09:28:42< tschmitz> hm, s/build//
20110407 09:28:49< gabba> you mean to try and display suggestions from both player at the same time on the screen?
20110407 09:29:08< tschmitz> Eh, well ... I was hoping so, yeah
20110407 09:29:25< tschmitz> It sounds possible ...
20110407 09:30:03< gabba> hmm. I sense we're gonna run into trouble with hex invalidation and similar stuff if we try that.
20110407 09:30:33< tschmitz> hm
20110407 09:30:33< tschmitz> well,
20110407 09:30:40< gabba> See, most units' graphics go outside their hex
20110407 09:30:50< tschmitz> True
20110407 09:31:09< gabba> so animating one unit usually triggers redraws for the six neighbouring hexes
20110407 09:31:33< tschmitz> so the redraw will involve checking the suggestions lists
20110407 09:31:40< tschmitz> to see if they should be displaying arrows on that hex
20110407 09:31:45< tschmitz> (?)
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20110407 09:32:03< gabba> therefore if you try what you said and just don't refresh the screen and try to layer the suggestions of another player on top of all that, it's gonna overwrite stuff
20110407 09:33:08< tschmitz> I'm certainly not well versed in the drawing part, so I dunno, but ... it doesn't "feel" impossible
20110407 09:33:14< gabba> Actually, scratch that, I don't remember all the particularities of how WB drawing is done
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20110407 09:33:57< tschmitz> You even have an on_draw_hex() or something, don't you?
20110407 09:34:24< tschmitz> although supposedly the arrows are drawn someplace else ...
20110407 09:34:48< tschmitz> Hm, well this is certainly an enjoyable discussion
20110407 09:34:52< tschmitz> but regarding my proposal ...
20110407 09:34:58< tschmitz> ... which I should be doing.
20110407 09:35:09< tschmitz> Well, uh, I didn't finish that sentence.
20110407 09:35:15< gabba> What I can tell you is that I basically draw the arrows and fake units "myself". And the numbers. But it's a mix of reacting to on_draw_hex() (numbers), letting the arrows draw themselves (they're a separate framework), and perhaps building the future unit map. Probably.
20110407 09:35:57< gabba> I don't want to sidetrack you :), feel free to come back to the topic you feel are urgent
20110407 09:36:19< tschmitz> I didn't have anything in mind, I just came to the realization that I have a proposal that's not getting done
20110407 09:36:24< tschmitz> but
20110407 09:36:34< tschmitz> presumably these details we talked about go into it, don't they?
20110407 09:36:55< gabba> definitely, I think most of what we discussed is useful material for your proposal
20110407 09:37:05< tschmitz> Perhaps I should try to write an elaboration on the implementation of the suggestion mechanism
20110407 09:37:16< nagbot2> Hi!
20110407 09:37:19< nagbot2> GSoC 2011 candidates:
20110407 09:37:21< nagbot2> Fill out the application form at google
20110407 09:37:23< tschmitz> I was going to ask you wha --
20110407 09:37:23< nagbot2> http://www.google-melange.com/gsoc/profile/student/google/gsoc2011?org=wesnoth
20110407 09:37:23< gabba> both as a reference for you, and as a proof to the mentors that you thought  about this stuff
20110407 09:37:25< nagbot2> The deadline is coming - application period closes at Apr 8th, 19:00 UTC (12:00 PST)
20110407 09:37:27< nagbot2> you can still finetune and talk to us about your application after submitting it to google. But, this is just to make sure that you *can* be selected at the end!
20110407 09:37:29< nagbot2> Please do this now
20110407 09:37:31< nagbot2> Submit patches and prototypes for review, so we'll see how you work.
20110407 09:37:32< nagbot2> Discuss your ideas here - get important feedback from developers
20110407 09:37:48< tschmitz> I was going to ask you about the priority list
20110407 09:37:49< tschmitz> or
20110407 09:37:51< tschmitz> a priority list
20110407 09:38:09< tschmitz> among ...
20110407 09:38:49< tschmitz> Suggestions, multi-turn moves, cumulative combat probabilities, assume-dead action, and making invalid actions not expire immediately
20110407 09:39:15< tschmitz> all of a sudden suggestions sounds like a much larger task
20110407 09:39:30< gabba> welcome to the whiteboard :D
20110407 09:39:31< tschmitz> although the cumulative combat probabilities still sounds like a pretty large task to me
20110407 09:39:56< gabba> it's a complex project but very enjoyable
20110407 09:40:01< tschmitz> OK so anyway got any suggestions (pun?) about the priority order?
20110407 09:40:04< gabba> so, priorities
20110407 09:40:21< tschmitz> Yeah I look forward to working on it
20110407 09:40:21< tschmitz> definitely.
20110407 09:40:41< gabba> Start with easier stuff, both as a warmup and to get them out of the way, so
20110407 09:40:55< gabba> 1 and 2 = multi-turn moves and assume-dead actions
20110407 09:40:58< tschmitz> Invalid actions not expiring?
20110407 09:41:01< gabba> 3 invalid actions
20110407 09:41:26< tschmitz> yeah the assume-dead is probably pretty easy
20110407 09:41:40< tschmitz> the hardest part would be learning how to add a context menu button ... ?
20110407 09:41:51< gabba> I think assume dead may actually be stupidly trivial to implement, but who knows
20110407 09:41:57< tschmitz> yeah could be
20110407 09:41:57< gabba> ^yeah
20110407 09:42:07< gabba> 4 after that the whole network backend
20110407 09:42:21< gabba> 5 suggestions (dun dun dun)
20110407 09:42:35< tschmitz> As for multi-turn moves, for some reason it feels like those will be in some sense significantly different from what you have built already
20110407 09:43:04< gabba> kind of depends how you implement them, really
20110407 09:43:27< tschmitz> so wait
20110407 09:43:28< gabba> I thought maybe a chain of regular planned moves would work
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20110407 09:44:02< tschmitz> assume-dead, multi-turn, invalid actions, network, suggestions?
20110407 09:44:29< gabba> What I did implement though at some point was a planned move that "shortened" as you executed the part of it you could, you'll find a few leftovers of that I think
20110407 09:44:41< gabba> Had to drop it when the code complexified
20110407 09:44:55< tschmitz> Ah interesting
20110407 09:44:58< gabba> ^yeah those priorities sound right
20110407 09:45:06< tschmitz> so instead of a multiturn move, just a really long normal move
20110407 09:45:32< gabba> that could work, with numbers to show where the current turn (and the next, etc) will take you
20110407 09:45:42< tschmitz> And after those 5 tasks, then the cumulative battle probabilities
20110407 09:46:23< gabba> yeah, they're a very good feature, but unrelated to all that
20110407 09:46:46< tschmitz> Hm, regarding the multi-turn move, it seems like the main difference from other planned actions is that the other planned actions are "atomic" but the multi-turn move happens in multiple stages
20110407 09:46:52< gabba> run it through boucman, but I think that with this, you'll have your hands full for GSoC
20110407 09:47:20< tschmitz> it occupies more than one spot in the action queue, in some sense
20110407 09:47:49< gabba> that's probably one of the reasons I temporarily dropped it, that it complicated the building of the unit map
20110407 09:48:11< tschmitz> ^Yeah I think this would be quite a task for the summer
20110407 09:48:49< gabba> it's not a very good idea to break assumptions such as atomicity of actions, BUT you can always cheat in what you choose to apply when apply_temp_modifiers() is called
20110407 09:48:50< tschmitz> But
20110407 09:49:08< gabba> i.e. you can apply strictly what concerns the current turn
20110407 09:49:23< tschmitz> Hm yeah
20110407 09:49:30< tschmitz> well,
20110407 09:49:43< tschmitz> we already plan to have actions that are further down the list
20110407 09:49:52< tschmitz> ally actions for example
20110407 09:50:01< tschmitz> are being stacked on top of your
20110407 09:50:04< tschmitz> plans
20110407 09:50:12< tschmitz> ally suggestions will be stacked on top of your plans
20110407 09:50:22< tschmitz> or at least, that's the plan, hah
20110407 09:51:26< gabba> I think I see what you mean, you could treat those future turn moves as a separate stack. Actually one per turn makes sense, so you get You - Ally1 - Ally2 - YourFutureYou
20110407 09:51:35< tschmitz> So the multiturn move could just exist down the line in the stack as multiple moves
20110407 09:52:04< tschmitz> That sounds reasonable
20110407 09:52:13< tschmitz> Another note on this subject
20110407 09:52:28< tschmitz> Sides have separate action_queues don't they?
20110407 09:52:28< gabba> But (oh god) then we also get the allies' future moves for their own future turns
20110407 09:52:32< tschmitz> So they aren't currently stacked on top of each others
20110407 09:52:48< tschmitz> is that right?
20110407 09:52:51< tschmitz> They are just separate?
20110407 09:52:51< gabba> they're only stacked on top of each other metaphorically
20110407 09:53:11< gabba> so yeah, separate deques
20110407 09:53:12< tschmitz> Oh oh right I remember now
20110407 09:53:22< tschmitz> planned actions from separate sides don't conflict with one another
20110407 09:53:28< tschmitz> as it currently stands
20110407 09:54:18< tschmitz> so the idea would be to consider the action_queues as being ordered with respect to one another
20110407 09:54:23< gabba> Yeah, I think that was a good design choice. Otherwise we'd be managing an svn-like merging algorithm at this point (that's what Crab_ wanted me to implement :P).
20110407 09:54:39< tschmitz> Hah
20110407 09:54:45< tschmitz> Well,
20110407 09:55:00< gabba> yes, as I said above they're naturally ordered by the turn order
20110407 09:55:04< tschmitz> I think we have the choice between either that or the suggestioned actions framework
20110407 09:55:18< tschmitz> hah, suggestioned ...
20110407 09:55:47< tschmitz> Um, because we could just let allies make plans for each other instead of doing the suggestions thing
20110407 09:55:52< gabba> Choice? I don't see a choice or a conflict here
20110407 09:55:54< tschmitz> but that would incur the problem of merging
20110407 09:56:34< tschmitz> Well perhaps I jumped a little bit
20110407 09:56:40< gabba> Ah, so you mean directly affect the ally's action queue
20110407 09:57:01< tschmitz> Is that not what you were referring to with the merging
20110407 09:57:02< tschmitz> ?
20110407 09:58:22< tschmitz> Regarding multiturn moves, OK I got it:
20110407 09:58:29< gabba> The merging would happen if every planned action in the game (mine, yours, ally3, his suggestions, etc) would be held in a single data structure. Then when updating through the network, we'd have to figure out where to insert what, what to replace with what, etc.
20110407 09:58:35< tschmitz> make an end_turn action
20110407 09:58:51< tschmitz> Yeah that would suck
20110407 09:59:11< Qbunia> hi guys 
20110407 09:59:18< Qbunia> the procedure entry point pango_font_map_create_context could not be located in the dynamic link library libpango-1.0-0.dll
20110407 09:59:33< gabba> Could be flexible and powerful, if done by Crab_. But I consider myself a simple mortal being.
20110407 09:59:39< Qbunia> i get this error while trying to run the game why is it ?
20110407 10:00:30< gabba> Qbunia: that doesn't ring any bells
20110407 10:00:44< gabba> Qbunia: the only bug I can spot is that you're running Windows :P
20110407 10:00:51< Qbunia> gabba: :D
20110407 10:01:02< tschmitz> gabba: Honestly, I don't think that that single-data-structure description is significantly different than our plan with the separate queues
20110407 10:01:48< gabba> tschmitz: not that different conceptually, but it makes a big difference with network updates
20110407 10:02:05< tschmitz> Since we are going to be having the queues conceptually stacked on top of one another and chiefly doing insertions inbetween queues
20110407 10:02:54< gabba> tschmitz: for multiturn moves, rather than an end_turn action, I'd advise making a separate queue for each future turn... since conceptually those go after your allies' actions anyways
20110407 10:03:02< tschmitz> If it was implemented as a single queue, I would just stick in a marker of some kind to indicate where in the queue side 1 should be inserting things, and another marker for where side 2 should insert things, etc
20110407 10:03:08< gabba> keep what belongs in a timeframe together
20110407 10:03:47< gabba> tschmitz: true, you could do that
20110407 10:03:57< tschmitz> and then when network messages come from that player, I know to insert into the queue at their spot
20110407 10:04:10< tschmitz> the border between our separate queues is kind of like that marker
20110407 10:04:51< tschmitz> In any case, you might be right about the separate queue for future moves, but ... then we could get arbitrarily many queues by planning arbitrarily many turns in advance
20110407 10:04:56< gabba> yeah it is. You could even rework it to be that way if you prefer, I wouldn't mind.
20110407 10:05:16< tschmitz> I might think about it, considering the last thing I just said
20110407 10:05:19< gabba> ^Oh sure, but arbitrarily many queues is not a problem at all
20110407 10:05:39< tschmitz> Yeah I guess you're right
20110407 10:05:44< tschmitz> heh
20110407 10:06:01< gabba> The extra memory use will be trivial, players will go insane before it affects significantly wesnoth's mem usage
20110407 10:06:13< tschmitz> Yeah certainly
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20110407 10:06:33< tschmitz> especially since they'd be arbitrarily many *short* queues ...
20110407 10:06:34< tschmitz> I think we just went over the same thing twice
20110407 10:06:58< gabba> we may have, and I didn't notice it
20110407 10:07:01< tschmitz> where my end_turn action was that marker I was talking about
20110407 10:07:15< tschmitz> being the border between queues
20110407 10:07:17< gabba> It's way past bedtime for me actually, so let's wrap up the discussion
20110407 10:07:26< tschmitz> Right, 4am for you
20110407 10:07:38< tschmitz> Well it was fun
20110407 10:07:45< tschmitz> I hope for you, as well
20110407 10:07:55< gabba> It was, I actually lost track of time at 2am :P
20110407 10:08:05< tschmitz> Yeah, sorry
20110407 10:08:10< tschmitz> I probably should have said something, heh
20110407 10:08:12< gabba> I'm rather passionate about this stuff
20110407 10:08:45< gabba> So, any last-minute crucial question before I start snoring?
20110407 10:08:48< tschmitz> Good; I'm liking it so far, though I can already sense the all-nighters coming up when I start getting a lot of homework
20110407 10:09:03< tschmitz> I don't think so, since I can talk to you again tomorrow right?
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20110407 10:09:26< gabba> Yes, I'll probably show up around 15h00 of my local time
20110407 10:09:58< gabba> maybe earlier - I know that's awfully close to the submitting time
20110407 10:10:01< tschmitz> 3pm EST tomorrow?
20110407 10:10:20< gabba> yeah, when is the deadline exactly?
20110407 10:10:27< gabba> 19h00 UTC I think
20110407 10:10:28< tschmitz> Yeah ... good question
20110407 10:10:34< tschmitz> Friday
20110407 10:10:48< tschmitz> basically I think of myself as having tomorrow to work on it
20110407 10:10:58< gabba> Lol, I thought we were one day ahead
20110407 10:11:12< gabba> ok, so good you got a day for that, you'll be fine
20110407 10:11:28< tschmitz> Glad I have your confidence
20110407 10:11:31< tschmitz> heh
20110407 10:12:00< tschmitz> Sleeping?
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20110407 10:12:30< gabba> Yeah, after this discussion especially I think you'll do a fine job. Maybe I should've entered as mentor :P
20110407 10:12:52< gabba> Seeing how this will probably involve me quite a bit
20110407 10:12:56< tschmitz> Heh, if you can answer in not too much time, why didn't you?
20110407 10:12:56< gabba> Anyways,
20110407 10:13:59< gabba> Not sure why, actually - lack of experience perhaps compared to the other mentors here
20110407 10:14:28< gabba> we can discuss it later if you want, i don't mind
20110407 10:14:30< gabba> but for now
20110407 10:14:38< tschmitz> Sleep?
20110407 10:14:42 * gabba starts snoring loudly RRRRRRZZZzzzzz.....
20110407 10:14:47< gabba> see ya
20110407 10:14:50< tschmitz> I'll be doing the same
20110407 10:14:55< tschmitz> gabba: Sleep well.
20110407 10:14:59< gabba> you too
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20110407 10:20:00< Ivanovic> moin
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20110407 11:25:29< Qbunia> what means in lua   variable = ... 
20110407 11:25:29< Qbunia> ??
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20110407 11:44:17< Rhonda> assigning a value to a variable?
20110407 11:46:42< Qbunia> nvm i found what is it
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20110407 11:59:22< Nephro> Qbunia, in wesnoth that means the the variable will be a table generated from wml in the [args] tag below the end of the lua code part
20110407 11:59:33< Nephro> but this only seems to work in [lua] tags
20110407 12:00:39< Qbunia> Nephro: do u understand secenario lua ai cfg ? 
20110407 12:00:50< Qbunia> cuz i dont how those attack, recruit, and recall function come from
20110407 12:01:45< Nephro> Mostly, yes... The functions are registered with lua in ai/lua/core.cpp
20110407 12:02:17< Nephro> They just call C++ functions to do the job
20110407 12:04:00< Qbunia> mm 
20110407 12:04:09< Qbunia> but the names arent the same :|
20110407 12:04:34< Qbunia> i mean in core there is no recruit funciton 
20110407 12:04:36< Qbunia> as that name 
20110407 12:05:36< Nephro> somewhere at the bottom of the core you can see a list of lua function names with the according c++ they callback
20110407 12:05:46< Qbunia> ahh okey thax
20110407 12:07:31< Qbunia> Nephro: can u tell me about taht table generating wml ?
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20110407 12:08:26< Nephro> well you just do "a = ..." in lua and the [args]x= 5[/args]... It will be the same as doing a = {x=5}
20110407 12:08:34< Nephro> or a.x = 5
20110407 12:11:21< Qbunia> ahh got it 
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20110407 12:23:47< Qbunia_> Nephro: the thing is to make more c++ funcitons callable from lua in wml like [lua] function_lua(calls c++ function) [/lua] right?
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20110407 12:25:40< Nephro> well, basically yes... And not only functions... As far as I know, there are some structures also needed to be exposed to Lua... For example, we have movement maps in c++, but we can't access them from Lua, so that is a candidate to be exposed
20110407 12:25:59< Nephro> The programmers of LuaAi must have all the tools that C++ ai devs have
20110407 12:26:55< Nephro> That way we work our way around recompiling C++ code a lot of times, and by making high-level functions in Lua we can make things for AI devs very easy
20110407 12:26:58< Qbunia_> yeye i know :) 
20110407 12:27:53< Nephro> Like, "konrad.make_your_way_to({x=5, y = 3})" :)
20110407 12:28:04< Qbunia_> :) 
20110407 12:28:23< Qbunia_> i think u will take secion of AI but i have to try :D
20110407 12:29:10< Nephro> :) It's not a fact that some1 will take it at all, + there's Upthorn, who has much more experience than I do
20110407 12:30:12< Qbunia_> we will see ;) 
20110407 12:30:49< Nephro> You should certainly try anyway, not trying is the easiest way to fail
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20110407 12:37:48< zaroth> zookeeper: when you have time, please have a look on http://wiki.wesnoth.org/Zaroth_Multiplayer_Improvements#Planned_features - it's not finished yet (obviously), but I'd like to know if there is something wrong with what I've stated there so far
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20110407 12:40:39< timotei21> hi zookeeper!
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20110407 12:40:49< Qbunia_> Nephro: true :)
20110407 12:41:07< timotei21> the [event] tag is used just to define a (custom) events, that means, the action that's happening when that event name is triggered by the engine or by [fire_event]?
20110407 12:41:29< timotei21> or the [event] can be used to trigger a certain event too?
20110407 12:42:18< timotei21> actually the question was meant to be: the [fire_event] is the only one used to trigger an event?
20110407 12:42:37< timotei21> if yes, can it trigger game specific ones (like 'side turn') or just custom created ones? :)
20110407 12:43:57< timotei21> AI0867: if I understand correclty, the WML schema idea, is to do/replace the schema.cfg file, right?
20110407 12:44:34< timotei21> mordante, AI0867: will the Schema idea involve creating such "schemata" for the wml, so I can use it in the eclipse plugin too?
20110407 12:46:13< zookeeper> zaroth, looks ok to me
20110407 12:47:06< zookeeper> timotei21, [fire_event] can be used to trigger any kind of event, both built-in ones like moveto or side turn and custom ones
20110407 12:47:22< timotei21> ok. thanks!
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20110407 13:13:35< AI0867> timotei: my idea is that data/schema.cfg will be generated from wikigrabber-like comments, in whatever form turns out best during GSoC. This can then be used for validation, eclipse, emacs and more (maybe I can get a vim plugin to work)
20110407 13:29:47< CIA-82> ivanovic * r49119 /trunk/ (10 files in 9 dirs): updated German and Japanese translation
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20110407 13:40:11< Nephro> Can someone please help me with SCons config file editing? I added two files to the project lua_object.cpp and lua_object.hpp. How do I tell about that to SCons? I added the files in the CMakelists, but can
20110407 13:40:20< Nephro> tcan't get how it's done in SCons
20110407 13:45:35< elias> there's probably an SConstruct file working just like CMakeLists.txt
20110407 13:45:46< elias> or SConscript files in the source dirs
20110407 13:46:16< Nephro> elias, aye, I found it, i was just looking at the wrong one, since there is one in the root dir... The needed one was in src
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20110407 13:57:48< Qbunia> Nephro: int side = get_readonly_context(L).get_side();
20110407 13:57:57< Qbunia> what does get_readonly_context(Luastate) do ? 
20110407 13:58:45< Nephro> the contexts hold all of the information about the game... Readonly contexts are used just to get info, readwrite contexts are used to eecute actions etc
20110407 13:58:46< Qbunia> i suppose it returns all config where u can get variable like side 
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20110407 14:14:20< Nephro> Qbunia, this would be the most useful Wiki page for you, especially the very last chapter of it
20110407 14:14:21< Nephro> http://wiki.wesnoth.org/Customizing_AI_in_Wesnoth_1.8
20110407 14:14:36< Nephro> I reread the last chapter at least once a day :)
20110407 14:15:10< Qbunia> Nephro: why everyday ?:D
20110407 14:15:44< Nephro> No, I am just kidding, but I reread it many times, when I first tried to understand how the AI works here
20110407 14:17:03-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110407 14:17:16< Qbunia> haha 
20110407 14:17:16< Qbunia> :D
20110407 14:17:36< Qbunia> iam looking know how i can make a class callable from lua 
20110407 14:20:54-!- pauxlo [~ebermann@stilgar.mathematik.hu-berlin.de] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110407 14:23:17< pauxlo> Hello everyone!
20110407 14:23:34< Nephro> wesbot, #2626
20110407 14:23:40< Nephro> wesbot patch #2626
20110407 14:23:41< wesbot> Patch #2626  Assigned to: None  Status: None  Priority: 5 - Normal
20110407 14:23:41< wesbot> Summary: Lua Aspect Foundation
20110407 14:23:41< wesbot> Original submission: This patch enables AI developers to create aspects using 
20110407 14:23:44< wesbot> Lua. It allows users not only to create static values in the form "value = somet
20110407 14:23:47< wesbot> URL: https://gna.org/patch/?2626
20110407 14:23:49< wesbot> Attached file (1st): https://gna.org/patch/download.php?file_id=12814
20110407 14:24:13< Nephro> Can someone, please, assign this to Crab_ ?
20110407 14:25:14< pauxlo> Is the "Development roadmap" in the wiki (http://wiki.wesnoth.org/Roadmap) still of any relevance? It was last modified in 2008, but the last real content change was in 2005. I think we should mark this document as "Historic". (And maybe create a new roadmap.)
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20110407 14:33:50< timotei> zookeeper: could you tell me how can I see an example of creating new wml tags from lua?
20110407 14:34:02< timotei> the wiki doesn't help me (I haven't found any info regarding it)
20110407 14:36:17< zookeeper> timotei, data/lua/wml-tags.lua for starters
20110407 14:36:23< timotei> zookeeper: thanks
20110407 14:37:16< nagbot2> Hello from your friendly bot!
20110407 14:37:17< nagbot2> An announcement for ALL Google Summer of Code Students:
20110407 14:37:20< nagbot2> Fill out the application form at google
20110407 14:37:20< nagbot2> http://www.google-melange.com/gsoc/profile/student/google/gsoc2011?org=wesnoth
20110407 14:37:24< nagbot2> You need to do this until Apr 8th, 19:00 UTC (12:00 PST)
20110407 14:37:26< nagbot2> Everyone not enlisted in the google tracker at that time will have *no* chance to participate with Wesnoth as part of Summer of Code 2011, no matter how good your proposal in the wiki is or *whatever*
20110407 14:37:29< nagbot2> We can select ONLY people listed there!
20110407 14:37:30< nagbot2> Please submit patches and prototypes so we can see your ideas in action. 
20110407 14:37:33< nagbot2> Join the IRC discussions.
20110407 14:40:05-!- vultraz [~chatzilla@124.109.10.191] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110407 14:40:59< Qbunia> Nephro: did u managed to call c++ from lua? 
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20110407 14:45:37< Nephro> Qbunia, yeah, check out the get_aggression function in core.cpp, that's my bit
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20110407 14:56:54< fendrin> wesbot: seen yogihh
20110407 14:56:54< wesbot> fendrin: The person with the nick YogiHH last spoke 43d 15h ago.  43d 11h ago they left with the message: Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.13/20101203075014]
20110407 14:57:04-!- Crab_ [~Crab@wesnoth/developer/crab] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110407 14:57:09< fendrin> wesbot: seen ilor?
20110407 14:57:09< wesbot> fendrin: Sorry, I don't know of ilor.
20110407 14:57:16< fendrin> wesbot: seen ilor_?
20110407 14:57:16< wesbot> fendrin: Sorry, I don't know of ilor_.
20110407 14:57:36< fendrin> hi Crab_
20110407 14:57:53< fendrin> Crab_: Ever did anything mouse handler related?
20110407 14:59:26< Crab_> more-or-less now
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20110407 14:59:44< Crab_> *not
20110407 14:59:54< fendrin> Too bad.
20110407 15:00:11< fendrin> All experts on the matter are lost.
20110407 15:00:30< fendrin> Bus factor critical.
20110407 15:00:36< Qbunia> hey there Crab_ 
20110407 15:00:51< Qbunia> how long u gonna be online Crab_ ?
20110407 15:00:54< Crab_> hi, Qbunia
20110407 15:01:06< Crab_> today: ~2-3 hours, maybe more in the evening
20110407 15:01:31< Crab_> after that - not much, I'm going for a small trip to Krakow, returning next tuesday
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20110407 15:02:05< Qbunia> Krakow? where u from ?
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20110407 15:03:28< Nephro> Crab_, morning, I've finally posted the patch, and would be grateful if you check it out and give me a green or red light to continue :) Since atm I only registered the aspect factory for aggression, but I think it should work for all numerical, boolean and string aspects. But at the moment I am more interested in some comments about the structure of it all
20110407 15:03:54< Crab_> Qbunia: from Ukraine
20110407 15:04:13< Qbunia> ah hehe so i see you going to my country ;) 
20110407 15:04:17< Crab_> Qbunia: :)
20110407 15:04:24< Qbunia> tell me 
20110407 15:04:27< Crab_> Nephro: ok, I'll check it out
20110407 15:04:31< Qbunia> why i have to push 
20110407 15:04:33< Qbunia>     lua_pushvalue(L,-1);     lua_setfield(L, -2, "__index"); 
20110407 15:04:42< Qbunia> when i like to register array of methods?
20110407 15:05:12< Nephro> There is also one nasty workaround in aspect.hpp, but I don't know much about variants, so I just cheated a bit... I'll dig in to that later, if everything else is fine
20110407 15:06:25< Crab_> Qbunia: where it's done in wesnoth's code (file/line number) ?
20110407 15:07:05< Qbunia> mm in my file :D iam trying to do anything with c++ class and guy on forum who posted the solution 
20110407 15:07:06< Crab_> I guess you would usually push a callback before registering a function
20110407 15:07:18< Qbunia> didn`t say anything why it have to be written
20110407 15:07:54< Crab_> check the lua docs, http://pgl.yoyo.org/luai/i/lua_setfield
20110407 15:09:01< Qbunia> ah ok thx
20110407 15:09:02< Crab_> when we do lua_setfield(L, -2, "__index"); , we do the following:  'take a table which at index -2, and accociate the "__index" metamethod in it with function which is at the top of the stack'
20110407 15:09:30< Crab_> so, just before that, we need to put a value at the top of the stack
20110407 15:09:47< Crab_> i.e. "put a function at the top of the stack"
20110407 15:10:40< Crab_> by doing  lua_pushvalue(L,-1); , you copy the current top of the stack (arg is -1)  to the top of the stack  (also, check http://pgl.yoyo.org/luai/i/lua_pushvalue )
20110407 15:10:54< Crab_> so, basically, you do t["__index"] = t
20110407 15:11:00< Crab_> with those two lines.
20110407 15:11:10< Crab_> doesn't make much sence,but is valid lua c code.
20110407 15:11:54< Crab_> wesnoth's code usually does things like 'lua_pushcfunction(L, impl_unit_type_get); lua_setfield(L, -2, "__index");' instead
20110407 15:12:09< Crab_> so, before we had table T on stack
20110407 15:12:13< Crab_> like this:       -1: T
20110407 15:12:32< Crab_> then, we add a function on top. we get:    -2: Table       -1: Function
20110407 15:12:40< Crab_> then, we call lua_setfield(L, -2, "__index");
20110407 15:13:01< Crab_> it would take a Table (it's now at -2) and make 'Table["__index"] = Function'
20110407 15:13:12< Crab_> and that's what we wanted in this case to set an index metamethod
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20110407 15:13:56< Crab_> if you have't already, check out the __index docs:    http://www.lua.org/pil/13.4.1.html
20110407 15:14:23< Crab_> '... when we access an absent field in a table, the result is nil. This is true, but it is not the whole truth. Actually, such access triggers the interpreter to look for an __index metamethod: If there is no such method, as usually happens, then the access results in nil; otherwise, the metamethod will provide the result. '
20110407 15:15:35< Crab_> Qbunia: more-or-less clear ?
20110407 15:16:47< Qbunia> i dont get the - numbers on the stack its that we get the second element counting from end of the stack? 
20110407 15:17:38< Qbunia> or it is that we copy the 2nd element to the top of the stack?
20110407 15:17:39< Crab_> top: -1, then -2 then -3, ...
20110407 15:17:46< Nephro> from the top of it... That structure isn't actually a stack, because you can access any element in it... a[1] would be the bottom item, a[-1] top item
20110407 15:18:07< Qbunia> i thought it goes 1 2 3 4 
20110407 15:18:10< Crab_> it is a stack, when you talk about negative indexes
20110407 15:18:37< Crab_> -1 is top, -2 is next beneath the top, ...
20110407 15:18:59< Nephro> But true stacks shouldn't allow random access
20110407 15:19:12< Qbunia> yeye  
20110407 15:19:16< Qbunia> but when i try 
20110407 15:19:26< Qbunia> lua_tonumber(L, i); when i is a + value?
20110407 15:20:55< Crab_> positive indexes represent absolute stack indexes
20110407 15:20:58< Nephro> then you are trying to use the i-th element from the bottom
20110407 15:20:59< Crab_> from 1 top top element
20110407 15:21:06< Crab_> 1 is bottom
20110407 15:21:16< Crab_> and valid positive are from 1 to top
20110407 15:21:42< Crab_> the docs ( http://www.lua.org/manual/5.1/manual.html ) say about this:
20110407 15:21:52< Crab_> For convenience, most query operations in the API do not follow a strict stack discipline. Instead, they can refer to any element in the stack by using an index:
20110407 15:21:53< Crab_> A positive index represents an absolute stack position (starting at 1); a negative index represents an offset relative to the top of the stack. More specifically, if the stack has n elements, then index 1 represents the first element (that is, the element that was pushed onto the stack first) and index n represents the last element; index -1 also represents the last element (that is, the element at the top) and index -n represents the first element
20110407 15:22:46< Qbunia> so 
20110407 15:22:57< Qbunia> this is what i mean few mins ago :) 
20110407 15:23:08< Crab_> yes
20110407 15:27:34< Qbunia> and that table is a table of methods yes?
20110407 15:27:43< Qbunia> and how we push taht table to the stack?
20110407 15:30:24< Crab_> to push a table to the stack, there's lua_createtable
20110407 15:30:59< Crab_> and you can put anything you wish in a table
20110407 15:31:51< Crab_> in wesnoth's lua api, it's usually 'push a __index metamethod to table, implemented as a c function, which will process all the properties using helper macros
20110407 15:32:28< Qbunia> mm 
20110407 15:32:30< Crab_> checkimpl_unit_get for example
20110407 15:32:35< Crab_> impl_unit_get
20110407 15:32:43< Crab_> check both its code and its usage.
20110407 15:32:55< Qbunia> L = lua_open(); 	luaL_openlibs(L); 	luaL_register(L, "Person", p_methods);       lua_pushvalue(L,-1);     lua_setfield(L, -2, "__index"); 
20110407 15:33:02< Qbunia> so whats here on -2 ?
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20110407 15:50:37< Crab_> the table
20110407 15:51:39< Crab_> luaL_register registers all the functions in p_methods in the new table on the top of the stack, plus does some extra init work.
20110407 15:52:54< Qbunia> ah i see 
20110407 15:56:27< timotei> Crab_, zookeeper: hmm, is this the piece of code that creates the new wml tags?:
20110407 15:56:27< timotei> wml_actions["if"] = if_handler
20110407 15:56:28< timotei> wml_actions["while"] = while_handler
20110407 15:56:33< timotei> in wml-tags.lua:284
20110407 15:56:55< Crab_> timotei: it creates a list which then is used to register it
20110407 15:57:08< timotei> like a name to a function pointer?
20110407 15:57:34< timotei> Crab_: I was thinking of letting the plugin, "try" to parse some of the lua code aswell, and suggest lua-created tags :)
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20110407 16:08:25< Qbunia> Crab_: Yesterday i hade some difficulties with running wesnoth on windows
20110407 16:08:45< Qbunia> Crab_: i i have done succesfully the 2nd instruction from: Windows compile 
20110407 16:09:08< Qbunia> Crab_: everything wnet good i run the game and boom 
20110407 16:09:08< Qbunia> the procedure entry point pango_font_map_create_context could not be located in the dynamic link library libpango-1.0-0.dll
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20110407 16:15:16< zookeeper> timotei, well, no, it's just done like that for if and while for code reuse reasons (i think).
20110407 16:15:53< zookeeper> timotei, most tags are defined in those function wml_actions.tagname(cfg) blocks
20110407 16:18:12< timotei> zookeeper: are the tags created just there, or they can be defined in any code=<< >> part?
20110407 16:18:57< zookeeper> timotei, in any code=<< >> part, i'd think.
20110407 16:20:40< timotei> ok thanks
20110407 16:21:02< timotei> Crab_: I'll try and finish a draft of the proposal in about 10-20 mins so you can take a look before going 
20110407 16:25:51< Crab_> timotei: ,ok
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20110407 16:51:50< Crab_> Nephro: looking...
20110407 16:52:18< Nephro> :) I'll run away for an hour or so, but I'll read your replies
20110407 16:52:41< Nephro> But will be back soon anyway, if you want to discuss domething
20110407 16:58:12< Crab_> the nested ifs are slightly wrong
20110407 16:58:23< Crab_> only slightly, it might even work.
20110407 16:59:12< Nephro> which ones?
20110407 17:00:25< Crab_> lines 77-85
20110407 17:00:50< Nephro> of what file?
20110407 17:00:56< Crab_> patch
20110407 17:01:00< Nephro> oh :D
20110407 17:01:16< Crab_> before, assert(valid_) was a valid assert, after, it always fails if triggered.
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20110407 17:01:39< Crab_> the behavior is still correct, but the code looks slightly funny
20110407 17:02:08< Crab_> in fact, you have an assert(false) there
20110407 17:02:12< Nephro> I know
20110407 17:02:22< Crab_> that's because you've pulled !valid_ up
20110407 17:02:38< Crab_> it's ok, just add a comment ' //fail ' there
20110407 17:03:06< Nephro> Yeah, I've decided to make the code look cleaner, less duplication, and decided to leave that assert there too
20110407 17:03:26< timotei> Crab_: at last. I had to stop myself from writing so I can finish in time
20110407 17:03:28< Nephro> But that is obviously assert false
20110407 17:03:29< timotei> Crab_: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SummerofCode2011_Timotei21
20110407 17:03:43< timotei> I'll detail it much more this weekend, since I may find more time :P
20110407 17:04:09< timotei> Crab_: I'd like you to tell me what you don't like in the proposal, and what you are not sure how things will evolve. Any critical feedback is welcomed :P
20110407 17:05:21< Qbunia> Crab_: do you know what i done wrong with wesnoth for windows? 
20110407 17:05:27< Crab_> Qbunia: not yet :)
20110407 17:05:36< timotei> Qbunia: wesnoth works fine for me in windows :)
20110407 17:06:02< Qbunia> maybei should try to install older version or try another method?
20110407 17:06:13< Crab_> use trunk, I'd say.
20110407 17:06:30< Crab_> trunk + msvc 2008 or trunk + scons should compile fine, if properly done.
20110407 17:06:49< Crab_> Nephro: in  engine_lua::do_parse_aspect_from_config , it's overcomplicated there, you don't need to use the registry for that...
20110407 17:06:53< Qbunia> got trunk + msvc 2008
20110407 17:06:59< Crab_> Qbunia: should work.
20110407 17:07:04< Crab_> Qbunia: how does it fail ?
20110407 17:07:16< Crab_> Nephro: but still ok
20110407 17:07:42< Qbunia> compiling went sucessfuly and when i start the game i get that error i writted some time ago 
20110407 17:07:49< Qbunia> something with pango
20110407 17:08:10< timotei> Qbunia: do you have the libpango dll?
20110407 17:08:26< timotei> actually, you need to have in PATH all the dlls wesnoth users
20110407 17:08:28< timotei> uses*
20110407 17:08:53< Qbunia> so i should point path to dll folder of wesnoth yes?
20110407 17:09:17< Qbunia> i never downloaded any pango but in wesnoth files there is a libpango.dll
20110407 17:09:53< Crab_> Nephro: in lua_object, a more serious issue (still ok for a prototype) - you should use lua ai action handler to do the evaluation
20110407 17:09:54< timotei> Qbunia: yes.
20110407 17:10:07< Crab_> Nephro: becase the string might be in the ai context. i.e. if it has a reference to current side
20110407 17:10:38< Crab_> Nephro: so, it has to contain a lua_ai_action_handler inside
20110407 17:10:44< Crab_> but, more or less, the approach is ok
20110407 17:11:12< Crab_> the thing that is needed: allow lua aspects to be used from lua without having to translate from lua to c++ and back.
20110407 17:11:26< Crab_> also, be sure to use the lua ai action handler (modify it if needed)
20110407 17:11:34< Crab_> you need to evaluate the chunk_ in ai context.
20110407 17:12:15< Crab_> Nephro: all for now. overall, things are good.
20110407 17:12:22< Crab_> nagbot: timotei ?
20110407 17:12:24< nagbot2> timotei : http://wiki.wesnoth.org//SummerofCode2011_Timotei21 : http://www.google-melange.com/gsoc/proposal/review/google/gsoc2011/timoteidolean/1
20110407 17:13:17< timotei> Qbunia: actually Crab_ and me have written in the windows guide about setting the PATH variable :)
20110407 17:13:48< Crab_> (it's ok anyway)
20110407 17:14:33< Qbunia> timotei: ye i know i saw that
20110407 17:18:46< Qbunia> timotei: hmm my PATH variable is set to dll dir in wesnoth 
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20110407 17:20:59< Crab_> Qbunia: you can also just copy the dlls to the working directory
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20110407 17:22:51< Crab_> timotei: your timeline doesn't correspond to 'exams 31.05-20.06.2010' :) , I think that it's better to write the actual timeline.
20110407 17:23:02< Crab_> timotei: IMO, 'The timeline will be written as the coding starts on 23 May. ' is not that useful
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20110407 17:23:12< timotei> Crab_: so, shifting the actual to reflect the exams? Ok
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20110407 17:23:30< Crab_> shift the timeline to reflect the actual dates
20110407 17:24:28< Crab_> a note about 'The tree will be built by the WML parser's rules: ' - don't forget that you can (conditionally) include files/dirs from a file.
20110407 17:24:56 * fendrin is proud. Fixed a bug that prevented right click drag mouse events to be triggered.
20110407 17:25:02< Crab_> fendrin: :)
20110407 17:25:34< Crab_> so, if we have 'ai/ais/zzz' which, say, defines a macro, it might get included by campaigns/bbb/scenarios/some_scenario.cfg , even if it is not inside /campaigns/bbb/scenarios
20110407 17:27:50< timotei> hmm, right
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20110407 17:59:51< boucman> hey all
20110407 18:01:26-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110407 18:01:45< timotei> hi boucman 
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20110407 18:28:02< Disruption> Hi Devs!
20110407 18:33:30-!- boucman is now known as boucman_mobile
20110407 18:35:05< Disruption> boucman: You just evolved :P
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20110407 18:53:33< mordante> servus
20110407 18:53:43< mordante> boucman_mobile, you were looking for me?
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20110407 18:56:36< zaroth> is there somewhere a complete list of all players participating/watching a game?
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20110407 18:57:17< zaroth> or do I have to glue it together from parsing resources::teams, resources::screen->observers and self?
20110407 18:58:02< zaroth> (self because in case somebody is an observer, his client doesn't see himself in screen->observers)
20110407 18:59:27-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: Google Summer of Code: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SummerOfCodeIdeas | 193 bugs, 307 feature requests, 23 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
20110407 19:00:06< mordante> Aethaeryn when you split scripting/lua.cpp then please move all lua releated files in scripting/lua/
20110407 19:00:38-!- automagic [~karol@77-253-85-96.adsl.inetia.pl] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110407 19:02:40< automagic> boucman2: Hi. I have described how the spritesheets would be loaded from the C++ code. http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SoC2011_Automagic#Spritesheet_manager
20110407 19:03:12< automagic> s/from/by/
20110407 19:04:29< mordante> Xenmen, we send wml gzipped over the network so not as huge as the plain text
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20110407 19:06:23< boucman2> thx will check later
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20110407 19:14:23< automagic> Wow. My C++ knowledge may be a little bit outdated. I have just noticed "#ifdef HAVE_CXX0X" used in config.hpp. I guess I'll soon have to learn the c++0x standard.
20110407 19:14:50< mordante> Aethaeryn: ping me if you have questions about the GUI
20110407 19:15:09< mordante> automagic, no it's optionally
20110407 19:15:41< mordante> and I don't think we will move to C++0x any time soon, but will send an email to the dev-ml soon
20110407 19:16:30< automagic> mordante: I know it's probably experimental or something, but it's the first time I have seen anything from c++0x actually used within a real project.
20110407 19:17:00< mordante> automagic, have a look at boost ;-)
20110407 19:17:27< mordante> but C++0x should be release in the second half of this year
20110407 19:17:31< Qbunia> any1 have some solution: compiled wesnoth on linux and i get error libintl3.dll was not found when trying to run 
20110407 19:17:45< Ivanovic> sorry, but this can't be!
20110407 19:17:56< Ivanovic> or have you tried to *crosscompile* for windows?
20110407 19:17:57< automagic> mordante: Do you mean the fact that c++0x will use some stuff from boost, or do the boost libraries use c++0x extensions?
20110407 19:18:06< mordante> however my compiler (g++4.4) can's compile Wesnoth when --std=c++0x
20110407 19:18:11< Ivanovic> then you just need "libintl3.dll" in your exes dir
20110407 19:18:56< mordante> automagic, some of it was experimented and based on boost, and boost uses the c++0x extensions
20110407 19:19:34< zaroth> Soliton: maybe you'll be able to answer my question above, since it kind of MP-related ^
20110407 19:19:41< Qbunia> i see copying now lets seee....
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20110407 19:24:50< Qbunia> c:\Program Files (x86)\microfost visual studio 9.0\vc\include\xstring 
20110407 19:24:58< Qbunia> string iterator not derefrencable line 112 
20110407 19:25:14< timotei> Qbunia: wait. you are *still* running windows binaries
20110407 19:25:15< timotei> :)
20110407 19:25:16< Qbunia> debug assertion failed
20110407 19:25:39< mordante> Qbunia, can you pastebin a callstack?
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20110407 19:26:03< timotei> mordante, boucman, fendrin: I'd like to know your feedback on the current draft : http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SummerofCode2011_Timotei21
20110407 19:26:08< Qbunia> mordante: how?
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20110407 19:28:43< mordante> timotei, first need to catch up with the logs
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20110407 19:29:16< mordante> Qbunia, not entirely sure I think it's called callstack in MSVC and is in the view or debug menu
20110407 19:30:20< Soliton> zaroth: i guess with players you also mean observers in which case i don't think there is such a list. so you have to piece it together, yeah.
20110407 19:31:18< zaroth> Soliton: thanks, just didn't want to double the code if it existed :-)
20110407 19:31:27< Qbunia> mordante: i can only run the game by mvsc ? 
20110407 19:31:56< Qbunia> mordante: no its not i can also run it by wesnoth.exe but it dosent work 
20110407 19:32:02< Qbunia> mordante: from mvsc it works :| weird
20110407 19:32:20< mordante> when it crashes can't you press debug and end in MSVC?
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20110407 19:34:27< Qbunia> 20110407 19:34:00 error filesystem: Trying to open file with empty name.
20110407 19:34:29< Qbunia> i get it from console 
20110407 19:34:48< Qbunia> 20110407 19:34:00 error config: could not open the file.
20110407 19:35:53< mordante> and no debug button in the Windows crash dialog
20110407 19:36:22< Qbunia> no 
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20110407 19:37:00< Qbunia> it also says in console that cannot open file: vc9/debug(fast)/userdata/preferences 
20110407 19:37:05< Qbunia> its because that file dosent exsist
20110407 19:37:17< nagbot2> Hi!
20110407 19:37:18< nagbot2> To all gsoc students:
20110407 19:37:21< nagbot2> Fill out the application form at google
20110407 19:37:24< nagbot2> http://www.google-melange.com/gsoc/profile/student/google/gsoc2011?org=wesnoth
20110407 19:37:26< nagbot2> The deadline is coming - application period closes at Apr 8th, 19:00 UTC (12:00 PST)
20110407 19:37:28< nagbot2> Everyone not enlisted in the google tracker at that time will have *no* chance to participate with Wesnoth as part of summer of code 2011, no matter how great your patches are or *whatever*
20110407 19:37:30< nagbot2> We can select ONLY people listed there!
20110407 19:37:32< nagbot2> The more good patches you submit, the better
20110407 19:37:33< nagbot2> Join the IRC discussions.
20110407 19:40:31< mordante> Qbunia, ok then I'm a bit out of options, or better said, don't want to dive into crash dump debugging again
20110407 19:41:17< Qbunia> mordante: no probs thx for help atleast it works in msvc
20110407 19:41:17< Qbunia> :)
20110407 19:41:37< mordante> you're welcome
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20110407 19:46:23< mordante> zaroth, let me guess your grid issue was fixed by an invalidate_layout() call
20110407 19:47:16< zaroth> mordante: exactly
20110407 19:47:42< mordante> zaroth, now you know why Crab_ sprankled it throughout his code ;-)
20110407 19:47:57< mordante> but it's a bug that it's needed
20110407 19:48:03< timotei> mordante: no problem, take your time
20110407 19:48:08< zaroth> yes, when I saw "workaround" I felt brave
20110407 19:48:23< mordante> I've a local branch which fixes some of these cases, but not all yet
20110407 19:48:37< zaroth> and thought "gamestate_inspector was written in 2009, it probably was fixed by now" and went without these workaround
20110407 19:48:44< zaroth> s/workaround/workarounds/
20110407 19:48:50< mordante> well it's something fundamental and tricky to fix
20110407 19:49:13< zaroth> I guess you already got an isolated testcase then ;-)
20110407 19:49:14< mordante> I did some attempts, but never was happy with the result, hope I will be happy this time
20110407 19:49:43< mordante> about every case of the call to invalidate_layout is a testcase ;-)
20110407 19:52:03< mordante> the GUI2_EXPERIMENTAL_LISTBOX is an attempt, and kind of works but still not entirely
20110407 19:53:52< mordante> timotei, regarding the errors left with MSVC are you going to fix them or do you want me to do it?
20110407 19:54:04< mordante> s/errors/warnings
20110407 19:54:19< timotei> mordante: oh, didn't managed to get some free time. and maybe you'll fix them better :D
20110407 19:54:34< timotei> so if you have time and want, you can do it :)
20110407 19:55:03< mordante> probably this weekend, will ask you for a fresh pastebin when I have time
20110407 19:56:01< mordante> zaroth, in what way does GUI2_EXPERIMENTAL_LISTBOX break building Wesnoth? I use it here and no problems
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20110407 19:57:01< zaroth> mordante: I don't have a log from my attempt, but it didn't break at my file
20110407 19:57:16< zaroth> and maybe it was a mistake with my way of defining it
20110407 19:57:24< mordante> which compiler do you use?
20110407 19:57:46< zaroth> because I simply added -DGUI2_EXP... to CXX_COMPILER_FLAGS in CMakeLists.txt
20110407 19:57:53< zaroth> same as yours, g++ 4.4
20110407 19:58:14< zaroth> I may try doing it again, if it's important
20110407 19:58:49< zaroth> by the way, what's the "proper" way of adding global defines for CMake?
20110407 19:58:54< mordante> I added "add_definitions(-DGUI2_EXPERIMENTAL_LISTBOX)" to my toplevel CMakeLists.txt and all works fine
20110407 19:59:21< zaroth> I'll try that later, probably leave the compilation overnight
20110407 19:59:42< mordante> ok, if there are bugs I'd like to know about them
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20110407 20:16:39< zaroth> what's the proper way to get access to menu_handler from within a GUI dialog?
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20110407 20:19:28< mordante> timotei, regarding the schema, what AI0867 said, but Eclipse is very low priority to me, nice if there's time left otherwise it won't be done during GSoC
20110407 20:19:45< mordante> zaroth, GUI1 or GUI2 dialog?
20110407 20:20:17< zaroth> mordante: GUI2
20110407 20:21:08< mordante> afaik there's no way to do that (yet)
20110407 20:21:24< mordante> best send the menu_handler as parameter to the dialog
20110407 20:21:26< zaroth> I removed non-console parts from do_control() in console_handler and created a function for requesting control change in menu_handler
20110407 20:22:06< zaroth> and I want to call that function in destructor of my control_panel dialog
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20110407 20:23:38< mordante> best store a pointer to the function to call or even better a boost::bind<> object
20110407 20:25:03< mordante> fendrin, I also looked at the mouse_handler ages ago, so close but no bus ;-)
20110407 20:26:19< fendrin> mordante: I have found the error. It was quite nasty.
20110407 20:26:28< mordante> ok
20110407 20:27:32< fendrin> mordante: mouse_action_base was buggy. A wrongly used macro whose value was used to do a shift prevented the right mouse button drag handler to be called.
20110407 20:27:54< fendrin> So far the most complicated bug I ever fixed in wesnoth.
20110407 20:29:09< mordante> cool
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20110407 20:32:24< mordante> zaroth, looking at your patch and a first comment regarding naming, control_panel sounds like a container widget
20110407 20:32:44< mordante> not like a dialog, it would be nice to give it a more descriptive name
20110407 20:33:57< Nephro> Crab_, <Crab_> Nephro: becase the string might be in the ai context. i.e. if it has a reference to current side -- I didn't get this part... Is the lua_ai_context something that is loaded in to the lua state?
20110407 20:34:13< zaroth> mordante: I took it from control panel in windows ... ;-)
20110407 20:34:38< Nephro> I haven't got to studying that part of the code yet... Do you want me to do that, while you are on the trip you spoke earlier today?
20110407 20:35:00< mordante> zaroth, it's to easy to start microsoft bashing now ;-)
20110407 20:35:20< Crab_> Nephro: yes, the ai functions should be closures WRT ai context.
20110407 20:35:27< Crab_> Nephro: remember your patch about aggression ?
20110407 20:35:36< Crab_> Nephro: your callback was able to access the ai context
20110407 20:35:48< Crab_> Nephro: and the lua code was able to access the callback
20110407 20:36:05< Nephro> but that was the readonly_context
20110407 20:36:06< zaroth> mordante: so maybe you have a suggestion? "control window" doesn't sound too good
20110407 20:36:09< Crab_> yes
20110407 20:36:10< mordante> zaroth, line 334  name = cfg["name"].str(); could be moved in the constructor initialization list »name(cfg["name"])«
20110407 20:36:27< Crab_> aspects should have access to ai::readonly_context
20110407 20:36:31< mordante> what does the dialog do?
20110407 20:36:35< Crab_> and they should have access to ai table
20110407 20:37:18< zaroth> mordante: GUI supported :control
20110407 20:37:25< zaroth> (from command line)
20110407 20:38:37< mordante> zaroth, the class side_controller is it a base class for other classes?
20110407 20:38:49< zaroth> mordante: no
20110407 20:39:11< zaroth> did I declare something virtual?
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20110407 20:39:35< zaroth> ah yeah, destructor, but it's out of habit
20110407 20:39:43< mordante> exactly
20110407 20:39:46< Nephro> Crab_, any particular classes/files I should study very careful before getting started on this?
20110407 20:40:03< mordante> also the protected members look odd
20110407 20:40:13< zaroth> ... it doesn't do any harm, does it ? ;-)
20110407 20:41:02< mordante> no it only looks odd
20110407 20:41:28< mordante> maybe call the dialog mp_control_player
20110407 20:41:53< zaroth> erm... maybe mp_change_control?
20110407 20:42:14< zaroth> controlling player reminds me of 1984
20110407 20:42:20< mordante> also good just like the mp_ in it
20110407 20:42:45< mordante> then we call it mp_guide_player :-P
20110407 20:42:51< Crab_> Nephro: lua_ai_action_handler class
20110407 20:43:11< Crab_> Nephro: it is quite easy to modify it for your purposes, to return a lua_object instead of a config
20110407 20:43:20< mordante> the ministry of truth doesn't control people, it guides them ;-)
20110407 20:44:04< Crab_> mordante: the ministry of truth keeps the location of wesnoth's git tarball safe and secure :)
20110407 20:44:16< mordante> :-)
20110407 20:44:44< Upthorn> ah, there's Crab_
20110407 20:45:27< Upthorn> Crab_: I finally finished my proposal and submitted to google
20110407 20:45:48< Crab_> mordante: for example, see http://wiki.wesnoth.org/index.php?title=WesnothSVN&oldid=41447
20110407 20:46:23< Crab_> mordante: I've had to work for the MoT to clean up some stuff in the wiki history
20110407 20:46:24< mordante> oh didn't now it was fixed that way
20110407 20:46:47< Crab_> Upthorn: yes, I've seen the mail
20110407 20:47:04< Crab_> Upthorn: I will take a look at the submitted proposals as soon as the deadline hits
20110407 20:47:06< Upthorn> I didn't realize the mentors got email when that happened.
20110407 20:47:30< Crab_> Nephro: note that I'm be available in IRC, the hotel states that they have free wifi.
20110407 20:48:02< mordante> zaroth, regarding the dialog_view_callback template, I'm not really sure
20110407 20:48:26< mordante> it only works for classes with the get_view() function so is very specialized
20110407 20:48:42< Crab_> Upthorn: we do.
20110407 20:48:48< mordante> so therefore not sure it belongs in a generic header
20110407 20:49:06< Crab_> mordante: maybe add a new small header for it ?
20110407 20:49:23< Upthorn> What I submitted at google is essentially a copy of what I have on the wiki
20110407 20:49:45< Upthorn> but I did finally get the optimistic timeline done and up in both places
20110407 20:49:54< mordante> the other issue is I like to get rid of that template
20110407 20:50:08< mordante> the signals are more flexible and that's where the listbox is heading for as well
20110407 20:50:11< mordante> Crab_, ^
20110407 20:50:26< Crab_> mordante: we'd be happy to use new stuff if it works )
20110407 20:50:50< mordante> Crab_, I hope to get it working soon(tm)
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20110407 20:50:51< zaroth> mordante: should I just copy the function code in both classes then?
20110407 20:51:19< Crab_> mordante: it's definitely better than 'I hope to get it working(tm) soon' )
20110407 20:51:20< mordante> I prefer that, since it's a template the object code will be duplicated as well
20110407 20:51:30< mordante> Crab_, :-)
20110407 20:53:35< tschmitz> Is it recommended that I mark my Google proposal "not public" so that I can provide my phone number in there?
20110407 20:54:10< Crab_> tschmitz: you can do it in a private comment, I think
20110407 20:54:48< tschmitz> Hm, a private comment on my public Google proposal?
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20110407 20:56:04< Crab_> tschmitz: I don't know if the student interface allows it. mentors can do it with their comments.
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20110407 20:56:41< Ivanovic> tschmitz: the only part of your proposal that will be public is the summary
20110407 20:56:56< Ivanovic> tschmitz: all of the rest ist, from what i have seen so far, private anyway
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20110407 20:57:55< mordante> zaroth, no other remarks upon your patch for now
20110407 20:58:09< CIA-82> upthorn * r49120 /trunk/data/scenario-test.cfg: 
20110407 20:58:09< CIA-82> Made all persistent data addition in the test scenario immediate, because
20110407 20:58:09< CIA-82> savedata/persistdata-desynchronization isn't a concern in the test scenario, and
20110407 20:58:09< CIA-82> it prevents confusion surrounding the messages about the feature. Also, changed
20110407 20:58:09< CIA-82> a persistent data test event location to match its label location.
20110407 20:58:20< tschmitz> In the "submit proposal" form, there is a checkbox called "Publicly visible" with the description "If you check here, the content of your proposal will be visible for others."
20110407 20:59:29< tschmitz> So should I just clear that checkbox and provide my phone number in the content of my Google proposal?
20110407 20:59:44< Ivanovic> sounds sane to me
20110407 20:59:55< Ivanovic> tschmitz: though maybe ask the google folks to be sure
20110407 21:00:05< Ivanovic> they should know what it does exactly
20110407 21:00:37< mordante> maybe #melange is the better place to ask
20110407 21:02:51< zaroth> mordante: erm...
20110407 21:03:11< zaroth> game_events.cpp has no access to menu_handler, or I'm wrong?
20110407 21:03:49< zaroth> because that's where I ultimately have to declare my WML_HANDLER_FUNCTION
20110407 21:04:56< mordante> it the code supposed to be a WML command???
20110407 21:06:09< zaroth> mordante: nevermind then... I didn't read the header of this file
20110407 21:07:38< mordante> do you know what you need to know?
20110407 21:08:50< zaroth> so far, yes... I will be sure once the compiler stops spitting errors at me
20110407 21:09:11< zaroth> but it seems like I finally passed the menu_handler successfully
20110407 21:09:23< zaroth> I'll look into the boost::bind() solution later, I'm eager to learn boost
20110407 21:09:59< mordante> boost::bind is very nice are you familiar with std::bind_1st and std::bind_2nd ?
20110407 21:11:07< zaroth> I'm not familiar with boost::bind at all yet
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20110407 21:11:36< zaroth> I just used shared pointers, program options and quaternions from boost so far
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20110407 21:12:00< mordante> bind_1st is in the standard library hence the std:: ;-)
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20110407 21:12:21< mordante> but it will be deprecated for std::bind, which is based on boost::bind
20110407 21:12:37-!- gabba [~gabba@wesnoth/developer/gabba] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110407 21:13:00< mordante> it's a wrapper for function pointers, but very generic and capable to 'store' extra arguments as well
20110407 21:13:22< epyon> why was [+tag] introduced?
20110407 21:14:00< mordante> timotei, looking at your proposal, not really familiar with the current Eclipse stuff so can't comment on that part
20110407 21:14:06< zaroth> I just looked into c++ reference, looks useful
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20110407 21:14:07< epyon> ergo where is a situation where you cannot hold the contents in the original tag?
20110407 21:14:23< zaroth> epyon: look into necrophage feeding ability
20110407 21:14:35< zaroth> afair it is used there
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20110407 21:15:24< mordante> timotei, what happens between 30.7 and 15.8?
20110407 21:15:38< epyon> zaroth, Corpse_Necrophage?
20110407 21:16:01< timotei> mordante: I need to finish the timeline :P
20110407 21:16:11< epyon> zaroth, it's not used :(
20110407 21:16:12< timotei> mordante: and add the rest of the ... ideas to work on :)
20110407 21:16:24< zaroth> epyon: macros/abilities.cfg:517
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20110407 21:16:33< mordante> timotei, the list of tasks is rather long maybe add a column how important it is to get them done
20110407 21:16:33< zaroth> [+abilities] should be there
20110407 21:16:57< zaroth> or somewhere near
20110407 21:17:18< tschmitz> Oh hey gabba
20110407 21:17:21< tschmitz> you logged in.
20110407 21:17:22< epyon> "[+abilities] # a hack to please wmlxgettext (using a bug in wmlxgettext!): dummy tag end: [/abilities]" O.o
20110407 21:17:29< gabba> hey there tschmitz
20110407 21:17:34< timotei> mordante: well, the tasks are guarded by the timeline. and also the tasks are atomical, that is, some of them are rather easy to do, 1-2 days :)
20110407 21:17:36< epyon> gabba, ping :)
20110407 21:17:50< gabba> epyon: pong
20110407 21:17:51< timotei> mordante: so, I've split each part in smaller parts :P
20110407 21:17:58< mordante> timotei, and the the details column .... let's say I have other expectations of details :-P
20110407 21:17:58< timotei> epyon: bing
20110407 21:18:00< timotei> xD
20110407 21:18:13< zaroth> epyon: besides that, grep the data/ folder for "[+"
20110407 21:18:23< timotei> mordante: hmm. more implementation-wise details?
20110407 21:18:24< zaroth> returned 7 results for me
20110407 21:18:29< gabba> timotei: hmm, what to answer in this case? bong?
20110407 21:18:36< zaroth> (I meant "data/core
20110407 21:18:47< zaroth> ")
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20110407 21:18:49< timotei> gabba: well, google I guess xD
20110407 21:19:14< gabba> lol
20110407 21:19:33< mordante> timotei, well some of the details only have one word as detail
20110407 21:19:58< mordante> timotei, also how much does your project depend on schema.cfg?
20110407 21:21:24< timotei> mordante: well, currently, without the schema, there is no suggestions for tags/attributes :)
20110407 21:21:46< timotei> mordante: but since AI0867 already did some prototype, I can "show off" it's features 
20110407 21:21:54< epyon> zaroth, as I see it is mostly used for hacks and the preprocessor :/
20110407 21:22:10< timotei> mordante: maybe then I should say "Sub task" rather than details. Since details are given in the proposal ;)
20110407 21:22:15< timotei> thanks for the feedback
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20110407 21:23:57< mordante> timotei, if you get selected and the schema task as well I think we need to look at what to do with the schemas
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20110407 21:24:29< mordante> we don't want two students to depend on eachother and IMO it makes no sense to implement something which is about to be replaced
20110407 21:27:13< epyon> Hmm - http://pastebin.com/TTQ8AEC4
20110407 21:27:52< Espreon> epyon: The hack you found is for wmlxgettext, the tool that extracts strings from WML.
20110407 21:28:11< epyon> Esperon, why is it needed?
20110407 21:28:24< Espreon> Espreon says:
20110407 21:28:39< Aethaeryn> http://wiki.wesnoth.org/User:Aethaeryn/Proposal
20110407 21:28:46< Espreon> Because code that closes a clause like that and reopens it does not please wmlxgettext.
20110407 21:29:35< epyon> I meant syntactically
20110407 21:29:39< Espreon> I believe without those hacks, wmlxgettext just crashes.
20110407 21:29:44< tschmitz> gabba: Perhaps you can take a look at my timeline in progress again
20110407 21:29:52< Espreon> epyon: En inglés, por favor.
20110407 21:30:21< gabba> tschmitz: sure, I was gonna do that
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20110407 21:31:04< epyon> Espreon, ergo its due to a bug in an external tool, not due to the fact that it's actually needed there?
20110407 21:31:11< Espreon> Yes.
20110407 21:31:20< epyon> Espreon, basically I'm searching for a usage of [+tag] that:
20110407 21:31:28 * mordante grabs a big trout and slaps timotei 
20110407 21:31:32< epyon> a) isn't needed because of the preprocessor
20110407 21:31:39< epyon> b) isn't a hack
20110407 21:31:42< mordante> timotei, What programs/software have you worked on before? ... where's Wesnoth :-P
20110407 21:32:15< zaroth> maybe it isn't prominent enough ;-)
20110407 21:32:18< Espreon> epyon: Look in data/core/macros
20110407 21:32:24< timotei> mordante: well... I... forgot to write it. but since I'm a developer, I think it was "self-explaining" :P
20110407 21:32:25< Espreon> Oh.
20110407 21:32:34< epyon> Espreon, not preprocessor related
20110407 21:32:42< timotei> but will add it ;)
20110407 21:33:11< mordante> timotei, for us it is, but google might also read it ;-)
20110407 21:33:13< Espreon> epyon: Look in _main.cfgs of campaigns with extra units.
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20110407 21:33:38< Espreon> [+units] is the only thing I can think of.
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20110407 21:33:54< timotei> mordante: yep. thanks
20110407 21:34:12< epyon> hmm, okay, that's not too bad
20110407 21:35:02-!- Crendgrim [~crend@77-22-173-219-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20110407 21:35:32< timotei> mordante: btw I love trouts :D
20110407 21:35:52< timotei> oh, and beamer rocks!
20110407 21:36:01< timotei> no more stupid powerpoint presentations (hopefully)
20110407 21:37:25< mordante> :-)
20110407 21:37:43< Ivanovic> timotei: yeah, latex beamer is nice
20110407 21:39:02< gabba> tschmitz: "Allow multi-turn move actions to be planned" --> you also need to figure out the interface elements that will differentiate multi-turn arrows from regular ones, and of course implement those
20110407 21:39:41< tschmitz> Right, that reminds me
20110407 21:40:14< timotei> I've seen silene's thesis and felt in love with the presentation's appearance. you could never (or with too much hassle) create such cool presentations
20110407 21:40:18< tschmitz> the main reason my brainstorm included "foresight view" was because of the possibility of planning several turns in advance
20110407 21:40:40< timotei> with powerpoint/openoffice
20110407 21:41:05< mordante> beamer indeed is nice
20110407 21:41:16< epyon> Woah, this is going to be one loooong document :(
20110407 21:41:59< gabba> tschmitz: I'm not convinced a view of future turns is necessary, since you'll never send more than 2-3 units in a multi-turn mission
20110407 21:42:38< tschmitz> gabba: It seems like the easiest way to indicate the planned moves would be to just show them looking the same as other planned moves, but there is an important difference, which is that those later moves are going to be occurring on future turns ... *after* all your other planned moves
20110407 21:42:52< tschmitz> Like um,
20110407 21:43:22< tschmitz> Currently, the player is capable of inserting planned actions into the action queue at just one position
20110407 21:43:36< tschmitz> that's at the very end of their current turn
20110407 21:44:14< gabba> tschmitz: thing is, it introduces a pretty complex interface with little benefits
20110407 21:44:35< tschmitz> So how does it work exactly
20110407 21:44:42< gabba> no matter how we do the backend, I think it should look more or less like the multi-turn footsteps, except you know, with arrows
20110407 21:45:01< tschmitz> So with numbers on the "waypoints"
20110407 21:45:15< tschmitz> or something like that, indicating the waypoints
20110407 21:45:36< Espreon> epyon: What's going to be long?
20110407 21:45:57< gabba> Yeah. I'm gonna fire up wesnoth in a window and keep it at hand to see how it looks exactly (please do the same :) )
20110407 21:46:07< tschmitz> OK
20110407 21:46:11< tschmitz> So example:
20110407 21:46:25< epyon> Espreon, my proposal :/
20110407 21:46:32< Espreon> Have fun.
20110407 21:46:34< tschmitz> I have a unit, a scout or something for example (doesn't matter)
20110407 21:46:57< tschmitz> Say it has 8 movement points
20110407 21:47:16< tschmitz> I go into planning mode and make it move 8 hexes away to some spot
20110407 21:47:54< gabba> right
20110407 21:47:58< tschmitz> and then I decide well, I think I'll plan a multi-turn move for it now, to go get that village over there like 20 hexes away
20110407 21:48:13< mordante> Aethaeryn, I had a look at your proposal and it's rather light on details
20110407 21:48:18< tschmitz> so do I delete the current plan and then make a multi-turn move plan instead?
20110407 21:48:22< Aethaeryn> http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SoC2011_Student_Page_Aethaeryn <- moved to proper page
20110407 21:48:39< mordante> Aethaeryn, eg for "This includes improving the syntax and implementation of the dialog Lua." I expect more details
20110407 21:48:40< gabba> hmm
20110407 21:48:42< tschmitz> Or can I just extend the move from where I have it currently?
20110407 21:48:43< Aethaeryn> mordante: how much detail do I go into? 
20110407 21:48:54< Aethaeryn> This is obviously not final
20110407 21:49:11< tschmitz> As I recall, you actually wouldn't have to undo that action to set up a goto for next turn
20110407 21:49:33< tschmitz> you could just select the unit and click the faraway village right?
20110407 21:49:36< gabba> tschmitz: I don't think this is the right time to decide this actually. Just be aware of the alternatives.
20110407 21:49:57< Qbunia> Crab_: how long u will be now and when u will be online tomorrow?
20110407 21:50:03< gabba> but visually, I see two good ways of doing it
20110407 21:50:04< tschmitz> K; so let me try to remember why I was thinking about that issue
20110407 21:50:29< mordante> Aethaeryn, well at the moment your proposal only contains ideas, we also like to know how you propose to tackle the problem
20110407 21:50:43< tschmitz> I was working out the details of the multi-turn move task, I suppose
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20110407 21:51:09< mordante> Aethaeryn, and of course during GSoC that proposal might change due to new insights but we like to have some ideas
20110407 21:51:21< tschmitz> OK so the important thing was to write down the task: Make future-turn planned moves look different from current-turn planned moves.
20110407 21:51:22< gabba> 1 - when you define a planned move that goes beyond the unit's remaining movement, just add a ghost and a turn number at every place you'll reach at the end of a turn
20110407 21:51:36< Ivanovic> Aethaeryn: regarding information: Crab_ was accepted with this proposal: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SummerOfCodeProposal_AI_Improvement_Crab
20110407 21:51:40< gabba> tschmitz: yes :) - let's not get bogged down
20110407 21:51:45< mordante> Aethaeryn, also did you already discuss your proposal with other devs? Especially the changes to the UI
20110407 21:52:04< Aethaeryn> mordante: Well, I'm bringing it up now.
20110407 21:52:05< mordante> Ivanovic, saves me from looking up that nice proposal ;-)
20110407 21:52:09< gabba> 2 - have a long arrow with only the aforementioned arrows, and a ghost only at the end
20110407 21:52:10< tschmitz> OK I'll put it in my list. Did you see my questions about suppose_dead?
20110407 21:52:12< Aethaeryn> Most of it is just syntactical changes, which I have discussed with Crab_
20110407 21:52:21< Aethaeryn> but I thought that wasn't going to be substantial enough
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20110407 21:52:28< gabba> tschmitz: everything above what I commented about looks fine
20110407 21:52:41< gabba> if I don't say anything you can assume it's ok
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20110407 21:53:06< gabba> Of course if it's really awesome I'll say it too :)
20110407 21:53:23< tschmitz> Heh right
20110407 21:53:46< gabba> Ah, btw
20110407 21:54:17< gabba> After all I'll mentor whoever is accepted for the whiteboard continuation project
20110407 21:54:27< tschmitz> Officially?
20110407 21:54:31< gabba> Yup
20110407 21:54:37< tschmitz> Oh very cool!
20110407 21:54:46< gabba> :)
20110407 21:54:49< tschmitz> Uh, what changed?
20110407 21:55:15< gabba> Well, last night's discussion changed my mind
20110407 21:56:01< tschmitz> Oh, =]
20110407 21:56:05< Crab_> Qbunia: will be from +1 h to +3h now, don
20110407 21:56:10< timotei> gabba: congrats :D
20110407 21:56:11< Crab_> *don't know about tomorrow
20110407 21:56:14< gabba> tschmitz: ok, so back on topic
20110407 21:56:21< gabba> timotei: hey thanks :D
20110407 21:56:26< tschmitz> gabba: I edited the list again slightly
20110407 21:56:37< Qbunia> mm 
20110407 21:56:38 * gabba presses F5
20110407 21:56:44< Qbunia> to deadline we have 24 houers right?
20110407 21:56:46< tschmitz> I added ...
20110407 21:56:55< tschmitz> your comment about the multiturn arrows
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20110407 21:57:10< tschmitz> and I think a note about invalid actions
20110407 21:57:46< mordante> Qbunia, did you already submit a proposal?
20110407 21:57:48< tschmitz> Yeah those are the two things I changed, according to the wiki history
20110407 21:57:52< timotei> Qbunia: you didn't send yet the proposal to google
20110407 21:57:55< gabba> tschmitz: there's something we forgot in the prioritizing though
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20110407 21:58:28< timotei> Qbunia: or, if you did, you need to add: =SoC Application= [http:///link to proposal on google-melange ] in your proposal page
20110407 21:58:34< Qbunia> timotei: mordante i still dont have anything ;( most time i worked on 4 other proporsals i left wesnoth for the last 1
20110407 21:58:36< tschmitz> I think I permuted multi-turn moves and invalid actions in my list
20110407 21:58:39< gabba> that is, do we try and change the interface to show the unit at it's future position
20110407 21:58:51< tschmitz> Ah
20110407 21:58:55< tschmitz> I had a thought about that
20110407 21:58:57< timotei> wow, 4 proposals and you still have time for another :P
20110407 21:59:13< gabba> it may not sound like much, but it's actually quite difficult
20110407 21:59:17< Qbunia> timotei: it depends what quality those 4 have :P
20110407 21:59:22< timotei> yeah
20110407 21:59:25< mordante> Qbunia, ok, best submit asap then you have 24 hours to improve it
20110407 21:59:26< tschmitz> If we do that, then we need to turn all "real" units into ghosts
20110407 21:59:45< tschmitz> because we can't have some real units look like ghosts and others look real
20110407 21:59:49< mordante> Qbunia, after the dead-line you can't submit anymore but still can improve in the wiki
20110407 22:00:02< Qbunia> timotei: 1 is quite good a lot of work but i need to add some code where and what i want to impleemnt(easy) 2 others have potencial but still not enough for 3 months job need to think of something else + some more explanations 
20110407 22:00:19< MGoods|RangerM> Can anyone tell me what the actual deadline for proposals is? Is it by the start of the 8th, or the end? (for GSoC)
20110407 22:00:26< Qbunia> 4th now working i got almost done still it hasent been checked 
20110407 22:00:27< tschmitz> Well, I take it back, perhaps we could
20110407 22:00:44< Qbunia> what u mean improve in the wiki ? improvments on wiki wont be calculated by guys who will be choosing the best 1 ?
20110407 22:00:47< mordante> also for the other GSoC students who didn't submit yet, please do it ASAP after the dead-line there's nothing we can do
20110407 22:00:55< gabba> tschmitz: Of course I don't remember all the specifics, but we can either try to actually change the appearance of the real units through the animation engine to make them look like ghosts, and then place fake units at the destination position ; or
20110407 22:01:20< timotei> MGoods|RangerM: it's on 8th, that's Friday on 19 UTC
20110407 22:01:20< mordante> MGoods|RangerM, http://www.google-melange.com/document/show/gsoc_program/google/gsoc2011/timeline
20110407 22:01:22< Ivanovic> MGoods|RangerM: you have to submit it in less than 23h
20110407 22:01:37< gabba> we can perhaps swap units to their future position just before drawing, draw ghosts at the other places we want, and then swap them back
20110407 22:01:42< MGoods|RangerM> Thanks guys
20110407 22:01:50< mordante> Qbunia, you can still update the wiki page after submitting to google
20110407 22:01:51< Ivanovic> after this deadline you can't edit the google page anymore, but you can still post comments (and we are likely to point things out that require some work on your side)
20110407 22:01:52< gabba> tschmitz: both have a bunch of side-issues to solve, of course
20110407 22:02:18< mordante> Qbunia, and we will be the ones to select the students, google just offers x slots for students
20110407 22:02:22< timotei> automagic, epyon ^
20110407 22:02:38< Qbunia> mordante: so you will take files from your wiki not from google?
20110407 22:02:45< gabba> tschmitz: and I think I had a try at both... if we end up working on that together I'll probably try and resurrect some old builds so you can learn from my old mistakes :P
20110407 22:02:52< Ivanovic> we will be taking into account what we got
20110407 22:03:05< Ivanovic> that means the proposal page as well as the wiki
20110407 22:03:06< tschmitz> gabba: Hm, yes; I was thinking we could just draw fake units over the real units if we wanted to change what they look like, except that the idle-animations would mess that up
20110407 22:03:31< Ivanovic> *BUT* when we request some additional info and you changed things make sure to post a comment so that we notice your changes
20110407 22:04:28< tschmitz> but, hm.
20110407 22:04:29< gabba> tschmitz: yeah, since they are animated you can't really draw them on top of each other - well I think I may have tried it or even still do it with ghosted units over regular ones
20110407 22:04:31< mordante> Qbunia, well you can post a link to the wiki and update later
20110407 22:05:11< gabba> tschmitz: boucman'll help us out if we need new animations to change appearances anyways
20110407 22:05:18< Qbunia> mordante: i see so i have more time even so never mind i wont be sleeping tonight! :P
20110407 22:05:32< tschmitz> Heh, nice
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20110407 22:05:41< tschmitz> OK I'll add it in the list
20110407 22:05:46< gabba> (an "animation" can just mean "the same thing but with more transparency, btw)
20110407 22:05:53< Ivanovic> Qbunia: keep in mind that we will start reviewing things *soon*
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20110407 22:06:02< tschmitz> um, changing how planned units are displayed
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20110407 22:06:08< tschmitz> is what I'll add to the list.
20110407 22:06:21< gabba> tschmitz: ok
20110407 22:06:49< Qbunia> Ivanovic: i keep in mind that u will start reviewing after friday ;)
20110407 22:07:02< tschmitz> s/units/actions/
20110407 22:07:03< gabba> I think you should add as the first sub-task of that to re-evaluate the need and doability of that, though
20110407 22:07:06< mordante> Qbunia, we will probably start to evaluate this weekend, so the time is still limited
20110407 22:07:18< gabba> tschmitz: we may need to run a poll or something
20110407 22:07:25< Qbunia> mordante: that what i meant after friday is weekend!:)
20110407 22:07:30< mordante> Qbunia, however we don't have a strict cut-off like google
20110407 22:07:38< tschmitz> It seems like it might fall into the optional category?
20110407 22:07:44< gabba> tschmitz: to avoid changing it only to find people loved the old way 
20110407 22:07:50< mordante> and if not submitted at google we can't accept the student
20110407 22:07:50< tschmitz> Since all the other tasks can still be done even if we keep the way they look
20110407 22:08:07< tschmitz> Yeah that's a good point, too.
20110407 22:08:11< Qbunia> mordante: i understand the main thing is to submit it on google site ;) 
20110407 22:08:23< mordante> exactly
20110407 22:08:34< gabba> tschmitz: hmm, I'm ambivalent about this one
20110407 22:08:47< Ivanovic> if there is nothing at google before the deadline there is zero chance at all to be accepted
20110407 22:08:48< tschmitz> Which one?
20110407 22:09:11< vjoe> hey!
20110407 22:09:12< gabba> changing the appearance of planned actions
20110407 22:09:51< gabba> on the one hand I feel it's important and could really help make the WB usable, but on the other as you said it's pretty independent from the other stuff we discussed
20110407 22:10:10< gabba> tschmitz: so yeah, set it as optional and as the last point actually
20110407 22:10:34< tschmitz> OK
20110407 22:11:09< gabba> That means it probably won't get done during GSoC, unless I have a go at it myself - but it'll remind us not to accidentally make the swap impossible
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20110407 22:12:15< gabba> tschmitz: I'm gonna be afk for a little while
20110407 22:12:21< tschmitz> Make the swap impossible? You mean like implementing the back-end in such a way that we make it difficult to change the way the planned actions look?
20110407 22:12:34< tschmitz> All right
20110407 22:12:54< epyon> mordante, what should be submitted where? Should the same text appear in the GSoC melange proposal and on the Wiki?
20110407 22:13:05< gabba> tschmitz: ^yeah for example
20110407 22:13:11< epyon> (apart from the questionare)
20110407 22:13:53< tschmitz> gabba: I have class at 4, so I'll be leaving before 3:30, which is in about 2 hours
20110407 22:14:01< Aethaeryn> mordante: You're right on the non-consulted addition part. I'm going to back down on one of the points. I would still like some way for the Lua scripting engine to be able to take in input via the message and/or command console to do add-on specified commands.
20110407 22:14:02< mordante> epyon, there should be a proposal at google and you can either copy the wiki text or give an abstract and link the the wiki text
20110407 22:14:07< Aethaeryn> mordante: everything else has been discussed with Crab_ in the past.
20110407 22:14:40< epyon> mordante, because if things havn't changed this year, the melange version has a size limit :/
20110407 22:14:40< Aethaeryn> And absolutely everything, including that, should be merely accessing features that already exist, not adding new ones.
20110407 22:15:03< Ivanovic> epyon: so just provide the private information and the link to the wiki page
20110407 22:15:07< Ivanovic> with the proposal in the wiki
20110407 22:15:11< Ivanovic> simple as that!
20110407 22:15:12< mordante> Aethaeryn, I've seen the discussions with Crab_ regarding the other things, but until today nothing regarding the GUI
20110407 22:15:32< mordante> that's why I was somewhat surprised
20110407 22:15:41< Aethaeryn> mordante: It's not changing anything the GUI does, it's just slightly changing the way it's accessed.
20110407 22:16:06< Aethaeryn> Also, for "public name" on the GSOC site do I put "Michael Babich" or "Aethaeryn"?
20110407 22:16:13< Aethaeryn> It's not clear whether it wants name or nick
20110407 22:16:36< Ivanovic> Aethaeryn: with the google stuff your "real" name only has to be in their forms
20110407 22:16:54< Ivanovic> Aethaeryn: the name there can be what you want to appear when google writes something about you, listing stuff and whatnot
20110407 22:16:59< Aethaeryn> Right, I'm just not sure what they expect for the "Public name" part under "Public info"
20110407 22:17:02< mordante> Aethaeryn, and the changes have zero impact on the rest of the GUI stuff?
20110407 22:17:05< Ivanovic> so either your real name or your nick or, whatever
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20110407 22:17:24< Ivanovic> a name that you are okay with if it gets public
20110407 22:17:25< epyon> Ivanovic, great, thanks :)
20110407 22:17:31< Aethaeryn> mordante: It only impacts how it is called from the Lua.
20110407 22:17:41< Ivanovic> many people out there don't like it if their "real" name is published all over the place
20110407 22:17:42< mordante> Aethaeryn, not even sure whether that's now the case, but when I work on GUI2 I never test the Lua part
20110407 22:17:53< epyon> Ivanovic, I don't mind my real name, but I do mind my bio-stuff
20110407 22:18:11< Ivanovic> plus the same data collection is used for gci and minors are (regarding the terms) not allowed to publish their full and real name their
20110407 22:18:28< Ivanovic> epyon: like i said, make this in the proposal at google and it is fine
20110407 22:18:36< Ivanovic> no need to put the private info in the wiki
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20110407 22:19:53< mordante> I'm off now night
20110407 22:19:58< Ivanovic> we just want to have the project itself in the wiki since this is also a form of documentation for us that is easy to access
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20110407 22:20:29< Ivanovic> (while we might not have access to project info only at google after gsoc is done and we need some more info about the project due to *whatever* reason)
20110407 22:22:13< epyon> Crab_, a feature request, maybe for next year -- GeSHi syntax plugin for the wiki :>
20110407 22:23:27< Ivanovic> epyon: sounds more like a mediawiki project
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20110407 22:23:28< Ivanovic> ;)
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20110407 22:24:06< epyon> Ivanovic, http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:SyntaxHighlight_GeSHi ?
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20110407 22:24:53< Ivanovic> epyon: you do know that you could just submit a feature request at bugs.wesnoth.org, right?
20110407 22:24:54< Ivanovic> ;)
20110407 22:25:16< epyon> Ivanovic, isn't that for the game only?
20110407 22:25:30< Ivanovic> nope, can also used for "additional" stuff
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20110407 22:58:48< Crab_> epyon: it has no syntax highlight for WML, unfortunately )
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20110407 23:00:20< timotei> good night everyone
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20110407 23:07:07< gabba> tschmitz: ok, I'm semi-back, but I've got a lot of work to do
20110407 23:07:18< gabba> tschmitz: so try to stick to important questions
20110407 23:07:36< tschmitz> OK
20110407 23:07:50< gabba> tschmitz: I think you have enough info and advice to make a good proposal and calendar now
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20110407 23:09:43< gabba> tschmitz: but I'd advise showing the whole thing to at least one or two other devs - they have more experience than me, and might have comments about whether the amount of work is realistic, etc
20110407 23:09:58< gabba> tschmitz: ^that is, once you feel it's pretty complete
20110407 23:09:59< Qbunia> Crab_: hey 
20110407 23:10:12< Qbunia> Crab_: if i turn droid on which AI controls me ? 
20110407 23:10:16< Qbunia> Crab_: which files?
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20110407 23:11:18< Crab_> the ai for you side, side=1
20110407 23:11:23< Crab_> in the scenario config file
20110407 23:11:45< Crab_> something like data/campaigns/<NAME>/scenarios/01_<NAME>cfg
20110407 23:12:21< Qbunia> ok thx 
20110407 23:13:00< Qbunia> Crab_:  int res_ai = luaL_loadstring(L, code); load string to int ?
20110407 23:13:14< Qbunia> in creating ai context
20110407 23:15:45< Crab_> Qbunia: load string to stack, returns error code
20110407 23:15:51< Crab_> check the docs, as always - http://pgl.yoyo.org/luai/i/luaL_loadstring
20110407 23:16:11< gabba> tschmitz: a big emphasis this year is good documentation, btw
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20110407 23:16:43< Crab_> gabba: I'd pick good and clear code over good documentation :)
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20110407 23:17:09< gabba> Crab_: me too... I think :P
20110407 23:17:35< tschmitz> Hmm
20110407 23:17:35< gabba> Crab_: but good documentation inside the code in the form of comments helps a lot, don't you agree?
20110407 23:17:52< gabba> especially for the most obscure algorithms
20110407 23:18:02< tschmitz> It's nice when it's possible to understand what you're looking at when you look through the code
20110407 23:18:14< Ivanovic> Crab_: good and clear code includes stuff like comments in the code in more complex and not self explaining areas
20110407 23:18:52< Crab_> gabba: like the canonical example of http://pastebin.com/tycMJxhD ?
20110407 23:18:57< Crab_> Ivanovic: yes
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20110407 23:19:40< gabba> Crab_: lol, where's that from
20110407 23:20:04< Crab_> gabba: http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/Y/You-are-not-expected-to-understand-this.html
20110407 23:21:00< tschmitz> Yeah my programming teacher told us about that one
20110407 23:21:47< gabba> Also I think it's good to have comments is standard Doxygen format, that you use for auto-generated documentation. I almost never use such documentation, but if you're new to a section of the code, using those as overview and generating graphviz diagrams and the like definitely help
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20110407 23:27:21< boucman> hey all
20110407 23:27:27< fendrin> hi boucman
20110407 23:27:28< Crab_> hi, boucman
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20110407 23:28:14< automagic> boucman: Hi
20110407 23:33:24< Qbunia> Crab_: when i use droid okey i see the files but side 3 or 2 controls me ? 
20110407 23:33:37< Qbunia> Crab_: can i write side 4 to control side 1 of me? 
20110407 23:33:59< Crab_> ai for side 1 controls you
20110407 23:34:12< Crab_> droid X toggles control of side X between human and AI
20110407 23:34:18< Crab_> each side, even human sides, have an ai config
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20110407 23:34:22< Crab_> separate ai configs
20110407 23:35:59< Qbunia> Crab_: ah i see now k thx 
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20110407 23:42:01< tschmitz> btw is it possible to make sub-menus in the context menu?
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20110407 23:51:13< gabba> tschmitz: good question, I never tried
20110407 23:51:48< gabba> it could be against the KISS philosophy though
20110407 23:51:50< tschmitz> My list has a fair number of context menu bullet points in it, I think
20110407 23:52:08< tschmitz> Yeah true, but so would adding too many things to the context menu
20110407 23:52:45< gabba> tschmitz: So what do you plan to have as the main sections of you proposal?
20110407 23:53:25< tschmitz> You mean the headings?
20110407 23:53:28< gabba> yes
20110407 23:53:43< tschmitz> Timeline ...
20110407 23:54:09< tschmitz> ... maybe a section for each item in the priority list?
20110407 23:56:07< gabba> Yeah, I was thinking that (after a short intro), you could have a "deliverables" section where you have a paragraph describing each item you intend to implement
20110407 23:56:11< tschmitz> You wrote a fair bit of background and motivation for the project and had quite a few mockups
20110407 23:56:51< gabba> Of course you can link to my past wiki page when that makes sense
20110407 23:57:01< tschmitz> Although this year, the whiteboard project is already recognized as something that needs doing, as opposed to last year
20110407 23:57:29< gabba> Sure, but so is almost every other project ;)
20110407 23:57:54< tschmitz> Except for the ones in the Make your own Project section, which the whiteboard was last year, wasn't it?
20110407 23:57:58< gabba> Yeah
20110407 23:58:01< automagic> boucman: Have you seen the updates to my proposal? I have an idea of encapsulating modifications in functors that I described there.
20110407 23:58:18< CIA-82> fendrin * r49121 /branches/editor/ (31 files in 5 dirs): 
20110407 23:58:18< CIA-82> Reset the copyright of some files to ilor.
20110407 23:58:18< CIA-82> Fixed a bug that prevented the handler method for right mouse drag end to be called.
20110407 23:58:18< CIA-82> Added different handler methods for right/left mouse drag end.
20110407 23:58:19< CIA-82> Reimplemented some of the drag and dropping.
20110407 23:58:19< CIA-82> Fixed some of the undo/redo segfaults.
20110407 23:58:45< gabba> All in all, just make sure to first explain proprely what you want to do and why, and then explain how and when you'll do it. Then you're done.
20110407 23:58:53< boucman> automagic: i'll have a look tomorow afternoon, it's quite late here
20110407 23:59:11< automagic> boucman: Ok.
--- Log closed Fri Apr 08 00:00:08 2011