--- Log opened Fri Apr 08 00:00:09 2011
--- Day changed Fri Apr 08 2011
20110408 00:00:08< tschmitz> hm
20110408 00:00:23< tschmitz> the midterm evaluation happens a little closer to the end than to the beginning
20110408 00:01:06< tschmitz> It seemed somewhat like the Suggestions were going to be a bigger task than just getting the whiteboard on the network
20110408 00:01:49< tschmitz> so I dunno if it makes sense to put the Suggestions task entirely before the midterm eval or entirely afterwar
20110408 00:01:50< tschmitz> d
20110408 00:02:44< tschmitz> The only thing after the Suggestions task in the priority list was the cumulative battle probabilities (and changing the way planned actions are displayed)
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20110408 00:04:46< tschmitz> Well I'll just throw what I have on the wiki for the moment
20110408 00:05:42< gabba> tschmitz: just prefix your message with "gabba" if I seem to be missing your message, I prefer that to regularly checking the chat
20110408 00:06:13< gabba> tschmitz: you probably should plan a feature freeze and bugfix period or two
20110408 00:06:21< tschmitz> gabba: Yeah I still haven't gotten used to it, sorry
20110408 00:06:43< tschmitz> All right, let's see
20110408 00:07:32< gabba> For instance one week before the midterm, and two weeks at least at the project's end
20110408 00:09:43< fendrin> I have a resistant null pointer assert with the undo/redo system. Is someone around I can ask for help?
20110408 00:09:55< Crab_> fendrin: you can try
20110408 00:10:01< Crab_> maybe I'll be able to help
20110408 00:10:08< fendrin> Crab_: Cool!
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20110408 00:11:37< fendrin> Crab_: Please have a look at this file: http://svn.gna.org/viewcvs/wesnoth/branches/editor/src/editor/action/action_unit.cpp?revision=49121&view=markup
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20110408 00:13:07< fendrin> Crab_: All of this actions are working well, with undo/redo. Except of the unit_action_facing which is causing the null pointer assert. I can't see a big difference in the implementation of the classes.
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20110408 00:13:22< Crab_> what's the assert ?
20110408 00:14:44< fendrin> Crab_: The assert is in the "->" method of the boost::scoped_ptr.
20110408 00:15:20< fendrin> It's caused from line 508 of http://svn.gna.org/viewcvs/wesnoth/branches/editor/src/editor/map_context.cpp?view=log
20110408 00:15:24< Crab_> can't you just use boost::shared_ptr for everything (typedefed for convenience) ?
20110408 00:15:52< fendrin> Yes,  I don't see a reason to do not so.
20110408 00:15:57< tschmitz> gabba: Hm, try looking at it now http://wiki.wesnoth.org/User:Tschmitz
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20110408 00:16:09< tschmitz> Oh yeah, and I have to leave home in roughly 10 minutes
20110408 00:16:13< fendrin> Crab_: But I am not sure how to typedef some properly.
20110408 00:16:18< gabba> ok
20110408 00:16:23< Crab_> fendrin: backtrace for the assert ?
20110408 00:16:49< Crab_> fendrin: see src/ai/game_info.hpp, lots of typedefs
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20110408 00:17:37< fendrin> Crab_: http://pastebin.com/jqHD2KuD
20110408 00:18:27< Crab_> fendrin: how action_stack is defined ?
20110408 00:18:34< Crab_> fendrin: is it a raw pointer container ?
20110408 00:18:43< gabba> tschmitz: the timeline looks good to me, but you haven't marked anything as optional
20110408 00:19:17< tschmitz> I just noticed that I deleted the
20110408 00:19:19< gabba> You have lighter stuff to do while you're at school, which is good/realistic
20110408 00:19:29< fendrin> Crab_: Good question. The infrastructure was already there. Give me a minute to investigate, please.
20110408 00:19:30< tschmitz> changing what planned actions look like
20110408 00:19:40< tschmitz> I'll put that around the end somewhere as optional
20110408 00:19:46< gabba> k
20110408 00:20:23< fendrin> Crab_: Just "action_stack undo_stack_;"
20110408 00:20:40< Crab_> well, action_stack is either a class or a typedef
20110408 00:20:49< Crab_> if it's class, where it is ? if it's a typedef, which it is ?
20110408 00:21:07< fendrin> Crab_: typedef std::deque<editor_action*> action_stack;
20110408 00:23:56< Crab_> fendrin: it looks like undo_stack ended up containing a NULL pointer
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20110408 00:24:16< Crab_> or the pointer is not null but the memory where it's pointing is corrupted
20110408 00:24:33< Crab_> easy to check if it's A or B
20110408 00:24:52< Crab_> just check the from.back() to see if it's NULL 
20110408 00:25:24< Crab_> if it's not NULL, we'll need to add logging in the destructor of that editor action to catch the place which destroys it
20110408 00:25:42< Crab_> if it's NULL, we'll need to check all the places which modify the undo stack to find where that NULL comes from
20110408 00:25:50< Crab_> either way, there's something to investigate
20110408 00:26:40< fendrin> I think the assert makes sure it is null.
20110408 00:26:42< tschmitz> gabba: I added an optional section just above the personal checkpoint (week 11/13)
20110408 00:26:44< tschmitz> just a few lines
20110408 00:26:52< tschmitz> but in any case, I need to catch a bus to class now
20110408 00:27:04< tschmitz> I'll be back in about 2.5 hours
20110408 00:27:08< gabba> ok, when do you think you'll be able to finish
20110408 00:27:10< fendrin> Otherwise it would be segfault or some undefined behavior, wouldn't it?
20110408 00:27:11< gabba> ok^
20110408 00:27:22< gabba> see you, I'll be around
20110408 00:27:26< tschmitz> K see you then.
20110408 00:27:26< Crab_> fendrin: easy to check. And then, if it's NULL, check all the places which modify the undo stack, to see who's responsible for putting NULL in it.
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20110408 00:28:38< fendrin> Crab_: Okay, I will do so. Thanks.
20110408 00:29:11< Crab_> fendrin: but check for being NULL, too, just to be sure we understand the issue right
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20110408 00:31:29< fendrin> Crab_: I will do exactly what you tell me.
20110408 00:33:04< Crab_> ok, good luck, then. I recommend making all that code use smart pointers, that'll make things slightly easier to get right. also, a good idea is to create 'add to undo stack methods' that check for 'not putting null items into undo stack' - that'll help catch those issues faster.
20110408 00:33:30< fendrin> Crab_: from.back is NULL.
20110408 00:34:05< Crab_> great
20110408 00:34:10< Crab_> this makes the case somewhat easier
20110408 00:34:31< Crab_> since whomever put that NULL there is misbehaving.
20110408 00:37:17< nagbot2> Hello from your friendly bot!
20110408 00:37:18< nagbot2> Everyone who wants to participate in GSoC with Wesnoth:
20110408 00:37:22< nagbot2> Please do not forget to submit your application to Google!
20110408 00:37:24< nagbot2> http://www.google-melange.com/gsoc/profile/student/google/gsoc2011?org=wesnoth
20110408 00:37:26< nagbot2> The deadline for the application is friday, april 8th, at 19:00 UTC (12:00 PST)
20110408 00:37:28< nagbot2> you can still finetune and talk to us about your application after submitting it to google. But, this is just to make sure that you *can* be selected at the end!
20110408 00:37:30< nagbot2> You have been warned.
20110408 00:37:32< nagbot2> Submit patches and prototypes for review, so we'll see how you work.
20110408 00:37:33< nagbot2> Join the IRC discussions.
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20110408 00:48:02< Zippydaspinhead> Hello
20110408 00:48:18< epyon> Done.
20110408 00:48:38< Zippydaspinhead> Does anyone currently present have knowledge of the current state of the animation system?
20110408 00:48:44< epyon> fendrin, want to take a look at the proposal before I paste it to the wiki?
20110408 00:48:57< epyon> Or anyone else for that matter?
20110408 00:49:43< fendrin> epyon: Please paste it and I will read it there.
20110408 00:49:57< epyon> Ok
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20110408 00:59:27-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: Google Summer of Code: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SummerOfCodeIdeas | 193 bugs, 308 feature requests, 22 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
20110408 01:01:20< epyon> http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SoC2011_Student_Page_Epyon
20110408 01:01:30< epyon> Here it goes!
20110408 01:01:34 * epyon hides ^^
20110408 01:01:39< fendrin> epyon: Thanks.
20110408 01:02:27< epyon> Too bad Crab_ left :/
20110408 01:04:59< fendrin> epyon: Sounds good. I will study it in detail.
20110408 01:05:38< epyon> fendrin, thank you! And once the other devs come crashing down on me, please put up a good word :D
20110408 01:05:54< fendrin> epyon: I will do my best.
20110408 01:07:12< fendrin> epyon: Add the examples you showed us before. Or better ones.
20110408 01:10:09< epyon> fendrin, they're linked from the proposal
20110408 01:10:33< epyon> I decided to put them up on pastebin, because the wiki has no syntax highlighting
20110408 01:15:22< epyon> hmm, should I submit the proposal to melange now? 
20110408 01:17:26< fendrin> epyon: Yes, there is a deadline.
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20110408 01:33:22< epyon> um...
20110408 01:33:26< epyon> "2.1) What programs/software have you worked on before?"
20110408 01:33:40< epyon> how should one answer this question?
20110408 01:34:37< Espreon> What is the problem?
20110408 01:34:41< epyon> I've had several freelance, commercial, GSoC and personal projects... should I list them all?
20110408 01:35:26< Espreon> I guess so.
20110408 01:36:02< fendrin> epyon: yes, the more the better
20110408 01:36:17< epyon> Can I link to linkedin instead?
20110408 01:36:31< fendrin> hmmm
20110408 01:36:51< fendrin> I am not sure.
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20110408 02:04:55< epyon> I assume I can just link the 4.2, 4.4 and 4.5 questions directly to the proposal?
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20110408 02:23:02< epyon> Proposal submitted.
20110408 02:23:16< epyon> Woah, that questionare felt like a job interview -_-
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20110408 02:28:56< Espreon> epyon: In your teasers, you left out the translation marks. Note: underscores are translation marks. Speaking of translation, is there a luaxgettext or anything?
20110408 02:29:29< epyon> Espreon, true. 
20110408 02:29:36< epyon> As noted it's a teaser
20110408 02:29:59< Espreon> Indeed.
20110408 02:30:08< epyon> I wasn't sure if they'd work as intended, but seeing them used in another project this shouldn't be a problem.
20110408 02:30:18< Espreon> OK.
20110408 02:30:18< epyon> (ergo, imagine that they're there :) )
20110408 02:30:47< epyon> Espreon, initial reaction to the proposal?
20110408 02:31:02< Espreon> Not quite done.
20110408 02:31:18< epyon> Ok.
20110408 02:31:27< Espreon> But we really need a luaxgettext or something if we want pure Lua stuff... ever.
20110408 02:32:23< Espreon> Well, wmlxgettext works well enough on my Lua stuff, but... yeah.
20110408 02:32:48< epyon> Espreon, I can patch the compiler for that if needed.
20110408 02:33:40< Espreon> Compiler? No, no, *xgettext extracts strings and puts them into pot files.
20110408 02:33:57< epyon> Espreon, in terms of ignoring the marker
20110408 02:34:10< epyon> Ah, ok, I see now
20110408 02:34:49< Espreon> If you were wondering, pot filers are translation catalogue templates.
20110408 02:35:06< epyon> Yes, I just made the connection :)
20110408 02:35:19< epyon> I forsee no problems here however.
20110408 02:35:37< Espreon> Oh?
20110408 02:36:41< epyon> Esperon, it should work with standard xgettext suite with a little work
20110408 02:37:13< Espreon> OK.
20110408 02:37:21< epyon> But I'll check to make sure.
20110408 02:37:36< Espreon> All right, then.
20110408 02:38:48< epyon> ...and if not, there seems to be at least one lua-xgettext project on the web.
20110408 02:39:00< Espreon> Excellent.
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20110408 02:41:27< Zippydaspinhead> anyone here know about the animation idea?
20110408 02:46:48< Espreon> epyon: Done. All I have to say is: "Kewl."
20110408 02:47:48< epyon> :D
20110408 02:53:06 * epyon just giggled when he came up with the fact that one can link to stackoverflow as an answer to "3.4) Do you give constructive advice?" :D
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20110408 03:18:29< tschmitz> gabba: Hello again.
20110408 03:18:35< gabba> hello
20110408 03:23:33< Zippydaspinhead> Sorry to continue bothering, but does anyone know who I can get a hold of to talk to about the spritesheets?
20110408 03:23:48< Zippydaspinhead> I have some ideas/questions to bounce off a sounding board
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20110408 03:29:21< fendrin> Zippydaspinhead: Talk with boucman when he is here.
20110408 03:29:55< Zippydaspinhead> Do you know about what times he is normally on?
20110408 03:32:41< fendrin> wesbot: seen boucman
20110408 03:32:41< wesbot> fendrin: The person with the nick boucman last spoke 3h 33m ago.  3h 22m ago they left with the message: Quit: Leaving.
20110408 03:33:28< fendrin> Usually during the central European evening. He lives in France.
20110408 03:36:04< Zippydaspinhead> Ok thanks
20110408 03:36:30< Zippydaspinhead> Curse my late thursday classes
20110408 03:44:23< tschmitz> gabba: Hey applying "what-if" actions to enemy units never ended up on the task list
20110408 03:45:17< gabba> true. weren't you taking notes ;) ?
20110408 03:45:43< tschmitz> The brainstorm was my notes I think
20110408 03:46:30< tschmitz> looks like it didn't end up in my brainstorm either
20110408 03:46:32< gabba> Well, more seriously, we should think if it could be part of something else
20110408 03:46:55< tschmitz> I think it would come after everything else in the priority list
20110408 03:46:59< gabba> Probably it could use the same framework as suggestions, and almost the same UI
20110408 03:47:08< tschmitz> especially after the cumulative battle probabilities
20110408 03:48:00< tschmitz> which are already last, excluding the "change how planned actions are displayed" task
20110408 03:48:20< tschmitz> hm, s/which are/which is/
20110408 03:48:37< gabba> I'll let you be the judge here, but you could put it as optional, but right after suggestions. It could end up almost free to implement if we keep it in mind.
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20110408 03:49:18< tschmitz> All right ... that seems appropriate
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20110408 04:02:46< tschmitz> gabba: Did you think about the possibility of hiding the whiteboard arrows when not in whiteboard mode (especially when holding the tab key)?
20110408 04:03:00< tschmitz> and hiding the ghost units and etc.
20110408 04:03:56< gabba> tschmitz: not really, it might be worth examining
20110408 04:04:30< epyon> gabba, is there a list of official (google-registered) mentors anywhere?
20110408 04:04:51< gabba> epyon: I looked for one and didn't find it
20110408 04:05:26< tschmitz> gabba: That way we wouldn't have to be simultaneously trying to intuitively display the real map and the future map
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20110408 04:07:21< gabba> tschmitz: you remind me that one problem I had with showing only the future map, is what happens visually once you start executing actions
20110408 04:07:46< tschmitz> Heh, good point
20110408 04:09:00< gabba> Especially when movement gets interrupted by an enemy sighting or an ambushing unit
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20110408 04:14:27< gabba> tschmitz: btw, something extremely useful to check out stuff in wesnoth quickly while bypassing the main menu, etc: "wesnoth.exe -t"
20110408 04:14:59< gabba> there are other command line parameters too (also for wesnothd.exe), this one's the most useful
20110408 04:16:46< gabba> tschmitz: also, a detail: currently, you can't chain any more commands after an attack. Usually you don't want to anyways since you'll wait for the attack result, but in some circumstances it can be an obstacle to planning.
20110408 04:17:12< gabba> Probably something to reevaluate as part of your early tasks
20110408 04:17:44< tschmitz> Can't chain any more commands after an attack
20110408 04:17:54< tschmitz> you mean ctrl-Y stops at the next attack?
20110408 04:25:55< gabba> tschmitz: with moves you can select the ghost and queue more actions; once you plan an attack you can't do that anymore
20110408 04:26:24< tschmitz> gabba: even for other units?
20110408 04:27:00< gabba> I'm talking about a single unit here. But just fire up "wesnoth -t" and try it.
20110408 04:27:26< tschmitz> Isn't that because attacking uses up all your movement points?
20110408 04:27:37< tschmitz> and your attack action
20110408 04:28:27< tschmitz> gabba: or am I not understanding what you mean
20110408 04:29:11< gabba> well first, some custom units can have extra attacks and gain movement through wml events - I'm not sure if we support those correctly right now
20110408 04:29:42< gabba> also, keeping in mind that we want to allow planning over several turns, one should be able to queue something to happen after a unit attacks
20110408 04:29:46< tschmitz> I don't either
20110408 04:30:11< tschmitz> is "wesnoth.exe -t" a test scenario?
20110408 04:30:16< gabba> yes
20110408 04:30:30< tschmitz> Does it have units that can attack more than once, or WML events that restore movement points?
20110408 04:31:27< gabba> I don't know, there's so much stuff in there. I remember those features in some custom scenarios on the server, such as RPG-style campaigns.
20110408 04:32:07< tschmitz> Right
20110408 04:32:30< tschmitz> I made a unit whose attack is restored when it makes a kill
20110408 04:33:34< tschmitz> and I think the level 1 version of it also recovered 1 movement point when making a kill, while the level 2 version recovered 2 movement points when making a kill
20110408 04:33:51< tschmitz> anyway
20110408 04:35:27< gabba> tschmitz: There were some interesting discussions here, dunno if you saw this thread already: http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=31338
20110408 04:36:40< tschmitz> gabba: Ah, yes I saw that thread, although I didn't look through it deeply
20110408 04:37:32< tschmitz> Heh, "You can currently plan several attacks in a row for the same unit and the game will execute them all in the same turn without complaining."
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20110408 04:45:10< gabba> tschmitz: so, do you think you'll be finished with the proposal tonight?
20110408 04:45:31< tschmitz> Well I have to be
20110408 04:45:37< tschmitz> I actually got distracted by the forum thread just now
20110408 04:45:56< tschmitz> what I was doing before that was writing the detail on the "assume dead" task (i.e. the first task)
20110408 04:46:19< tschmitz> Let me put it on the wiki in its current form real quick ...
20110408 04:48:16< tschmitz> OK I did it
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20110408 04:49:33< epyon> Ivanovic, care to look at my proposal?
20110408 04:49:59-!- Ivanovic [~ivanovic@wesnoth/developer/ivanovic] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
20110408 04:50:08< tschmitz> gabba: Yeah I'll finish the proposal tonight; there's no other option, of course, hah
20110408 04:50:30< epyon> tschmitz, another one riding the edge? :P
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20110408 04:51:06< epyon> gabba, any idea how many proposals did wesnoth get up to this moment?
20110408 04:51:16< tschmitz> epyon: Yeah I guess ... or something
20110408 04:52:17< gabba> last year we got 30, and a few hours ago we were up to 15, but I saw a few more come in in the past hours (including yours)
20110408 04:53:02< tschmitz> http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SummerOfCodeIdeas says 18 ideas
20110408 04:53:22< epyon> gabba, how many slots did you take last year?
20110408 04:53:27< tschmitz> using the method of Counting
20110408 04:53:41< tschmitz> gabba: Do you think I'm on the right track with adding details to my proposal?
20110408 04:53:52< gabba> lemme check
20110408 04:53:53< tschmitz> epyon: I thought it said 4
20110408 04:55:03< tschmitz> Yep, 4
20110408 04:55:10< tschmitz> According to http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SoC_Information_for_Google
20110408 04:55:14< gabba> tschmitz: yeah, that's about the level of detail I was looking for
20110408 04:55:38< gabba> the format is good
20110408 04:55:41-!- Elvish_Pillage2 [~eli@dhip-164.foss.residences.colby.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
20110408 04:55:45< tschmitz> gabba: So I'll continue writing then
20110408 04:55:50< tschmitz> Thanks.
20110408 05:12:22< xingped> So, curious question, how would I get involved with development for Wesnoth? Maybe not necessarily for GSoC, but just in general.
20110408 05:13:26< tschmitz> xingped: You can just hop to it! http://wiki.wesnoth.org/DeveloperResources
20110408 05:16:28< xingped> tschmitz: Sweet, thanks! Looking over it now.
20110408 05:17:07< Aethaeryn> Anyone here a mentor or developer (aka. non-student)?
20110408 05:17:19< gabba> Aethaeryn: yes
20110408 05:17:56< gabba> Aethaeryn: how may I help you
20110408 05:17:57< Aethaeryn> Can someone please look over http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SoC2011_Student_Page_Aethaeryn a bit?
20110408 05:18:01< Aethaeryn> I'm about 50% of the way through writing it.
20110408 05:18:15< Aethaeryn> Someone said I was nowhere near detailed enough, so excuse me if I err on the side of verbosity. :-P
20110408 05:18:24< Aethaeryn> If I need to painfully go through each and every detail, I will.
20110408 05:19:11< epyon> Aethaeryn, you might be interested in my proposal actually :P
20110408 05:19:19< Aethaeryn> epyon: I am aware of it.
20110408 05:19:26< epyon> As a content creator however, not a student
20110408 05:19:33< epyon> What do you think of it?
20110408 05:19:39< Aethaeryn> epyon: I've purposely made sure to keep my scope different from yours and from the Lua AI people's :-P
20110408 05:19:46< Aethaeryn> Well, earlier today your page was a stub
20110408 05:19:56< epyon> (reading through your proposal right now)
20110408 05:20:07< epyon> Aethaeryn, it's completed now.
20110408 05:20:09< Aethaeryn> And wow you've put a lot there
20110408 05:20:30< Aethaeryn> Looks like I'm going to have to redo the introduction to add even more detail once I go through each part of the implementation
20110408 05:20:55< gabba> Aethaeryn: looking, but if someone ask for more details you should probably run it through him again
20110408 05:21:13< Aethaeryn> gabba: Yes, but Ivanovic and mordante and Crab_ aren't here atm.
20110408 05:21:21< Aethaeryn> I think they're the ones who saw my very rough outline I had earlier.
20110408 05:21:23< epyon> Aethaeryn, I fueled all my pain, anger and misery into it xP
20110408 05:21:23< gabba> I know
20110408 05:21:43< Aethaeryn> epyon: Wow, you live an interesting life. I just fuel caffeine into my writing.
20110408 05:22:25< Aethaeryn> oooh
20110408 05:22:28< Aethaeryn> I need to add a goals heading
20110408 05:23:28< epyon> Aethaeryn, seems as contrary to what I thought the proposals are quite complementary instead of exclusive
20110408 05:24:17< Aethaeryn> epyon: We have the same goal in mind, we just have extremely different focus. I hope you get accepted with me, because we'd be working on similar things, but not the same thing, and you'd make my job easier.
20110408 05:24:43< epyon> Aethaeryn, exactly what I thought :)
20110408 05:24:48-!- automagic [~karol@77-253-85-96.adsl.inetia.pl] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal]
20110408 05:25:00< gabba> Aethaeryn: ok, disclaimer, I don't know much about wml
20110408 05:25:35< gabba> but overall it seems to me that you state the problem and then you have a shopping list of things you wanna do
20110408 05:25:57< Aethaeryn> gabba: I'm getting into details soon, note the missing headings. 
20110408 05:26:04< epyon> wow, Philosophy + Math + CS :D
20110408 05:26:10< epyon> I envy you.
20110408 05:26:35< Aethaeryn> epyon: I don't envy me. Do you know how little a life I'm going to have until I graduate in '13? :-P
20110408 05:27:11< Aethaeryn> I've met all my gen eds except for science in pursuing the first part of my education. I just have plain, brutal upper level comp sci and math left. :-P
20110408 05:27:28< epyon> " I have no social life outside of school ", eh?
20110408 05:27:37 * epyon drinks
20110408 05:27:38< epyon> xP
20110408 05:27:55< gabba> Aethaeryn: what you have there is not bad, you just need to discuss each major deliverable to show you've studied the matter, and that you're aware of the challenges/pitfalls, you've already identified some solutions, etc.
20110408 05:28:00< Aethaeryn> epyon: The reason I have a 3.7 and not a 3.95 is because of freshman year being social.
20110408 05:28:21< epyon> Yeah, upper level CSci and Math is very unforgiving
20110408 05:28:32< Aethaeryn> gabba: Yes, it's probably going to take about a week to fully define in complete detail absolutely everything, I just need enough detail to deliver for the application process tomorrow.
20110408 05:28:49< epyon> (I'm so happy I don't have to study anymore -_-)
20110408 05:28:51< gabba> sure
20110408 05:28:52< Aethaeryn> Considering I'll need to discuss a bit with what's acceptable with the appropriate devs of the various sections I'll be contributing to
20110408 05:29:33< Aethaeryn> epyon: Comp sci isn't an issue because I've built up the computer mindset by using Linux for years, which is less forgiving than the other major OSes to those who don't know about computers. :-P
20110408 05:29:46< Aethaeryn> Math, though, that's where the challenge is.
20110408 05:29:50< gabba> epyon: I hear we actually start getting nostalgic about our studies fairly quickly :P
20110408 05:30:04< gabba> tell me in a few years if it's true
20110408 05:30:46< epyon> gabba, honestly, I'd wish I was attending lectures ( I almost never did :P )
20110408 05:30:57< gabba> Aethaeryn: ah math. When I started CompSci I was naive and didn't suspect that it involved so much math
20110408 05:31:18< gabba> suffering ensued
20110408 05:31:18< epyon> at least now, on the other side of the barricade, I try to make my lectures as interesting as possible.
20110408 05:31:24< Aethaeryn> gabba: I didn't like math in high school, it wasn't until I took comp sci and philosophy and realized math is kinda important.
20110408 05:32:17-!- xingped [84aa205b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.132.170.32.91] has quit [Quit: Page closed]
20110408 05:32:28< gabba> Aethaeryn: well some stuff in math is just beatiful - from a philosophical background I think you can appreciate Euclide's Elements
20110408 05:32:46< gabba> The starting from a few principles to build all of geometry is awesome
20110408 05:32:49 * epyon wants to hack a Doom-themed Wesnoth TC
20110408 05:33:05< gabba> But at some level of abstraction it eventually starts getting painful
20110408 05:33:32< gabba> epyon: now that's an idea :D
20110408 05:33:51< gabba> also: WesnothRL :P
20110408 05:33:53< tschmitz> Geez, I've been one-upped
20110408 05:34:03< tschmitz> I'm graduating in 2013 with only compsci and math.
20110408 05:34:04< epyon> gabba, the uncountability theorem is beautiful. The Stop problem is even more beautiful. And Godel's theorem is the ultimate science beauty ^^
20110408 05:34:10< Aethaeryn> gabba: I definitely love the whole idea of starting from axioms and definitions and then going to increasingly more complex theorems building up an entire system.
20110408 05:34:28< epyon> gabba, the world isn't characteristic enough to warrant an RL :/
20110408 05:34:44< gabba> epyon: probably not
20110408 05:34:46< Aethaeryn> Proofs are my favorite part of mathematics, but I hear the math classes that use them are brutal.
20110408 05:35:11< epyon> gabba, however a Wesnoth Doom TC using Derek's sprites would be awesome :D
20110408 05:35:13< Aethaeryn> tschmitz: Yeah, triple majoring one-ups every overachiever ;-)
20110408 05:35:47< Aethaeryn> Of course, I probably won't be pursuing philosophy at the graduate level unless it's at a school that heavily focuses on the logic side of it.
20110408 05:35:56< tschmitz> Except all the people better than you lol
20110408 05:36:50< tschmitz> Yeah ... I took intro to logic (a philosophy class) for a humanities GE
20110408 05:37:05< tschmitz> Definitely a good choice.
20110408 05:37:17< nagbot2> Hi!
20110408 05:37:18< nagbot2> An announcement for ALL Google Summer of Code Students:
20110408 05:37:21< nagbot2> Register your proposal with Google
20110408 05:37:27< nagbot2> http://www.google-melange.com/gsoc/profile/student/google/gsoc2011?org=wesnoth
20110408 05:37:29< nagbot2> The deadline is coming - application period closes at Apr 8th, 19:00 UTC (12:00 PST)
20110408 05:37:30< nagbot2> Everyone not enlisted in the google tracker at that time will have *no* chance to participate with Wesnoth as part of Summer of Code 2011, no matter how good your proposal in the wiki is or *whatever*
20110408 05:37:31< nagbot2> We can select ONLY people listed there!
20110408 05:37:31< Aethaeryn> Yeah, I took a deductive logic 300-level course in philosophy and a required 200-level comp sci gateway in discrete math that heavily uses logic/sets
20110408 05:37:32< nagbot2> Submit patches and prototypes for review, so we'll see how you work.
20110408 05:37:33< nagbot2> Join the IRC discussions.
20110408 05:37:54< Aethaeryn> tschmitz: if I pursue math at the graduate level, and that's a real big *if* since it's hard, it'd be in something I really love, like logic or sets.
20110408 05:37:58< Aethaeryn> Maybe proof theory.
20110408 05:38:05< Aethaeryn> But it'd have to be something along those lines
20110408 05:38:58< epyon> Aethaeryn, in 5.1 I don't think the team expects yes/no answers, but something more detailed :/
20110408 05:39:02< Aethaeryn> That'd also be the only area I'd really want to do in philosophy either.
20110408 05:39:37< Aethaeryn> Logic.
20110408 05:39:46< Aethaeryn> Comp sci is a much broader field.
20110408 05:40:01< Aethaeryn> Not that philosophy/math is uninteresting, just that to do something in enough depth you must really, *really* love it.
20110408 05:40:16< Aethaeryn> One of the reasons I did philosophy is because it's such a broad subject and I could've majored in like 10 different things
20110408 05:40:30< Zippydaspinhead> question
20110408 05:40:38< Zippydaspinhead> this is more just a formality thing
20110408 05:40:52< Zippydaspinhead> but the more formal in our proposals the better? I assume so?
20110408 05:40:53< MGoods|RangerM> 5
20110408 05:40:54< Aethaeryn> epyon: Currently I'm focusing my verbosity on the code/design part.
20110408 05:41:00-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110408 05:42:48< epyon> Aethaeryn, and very correct -- the questionare is second priority :)
20110408 05:42:51< Aethaeryn> epyon: Besides, crab_ didn't go into too much depth on the questionaire.
20110408 05:43:00< Aethaeryn> And he's the example they keep showing everyone on IRC
20110408 05:43:11< epyon> Oh... link?
20110408 05:44:06< Aethaeryn> http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SummerOfCodeProposal_AI_Improvement_Crab
20110408 05:44:27< Aethaeryn> Very detailed timeline/goals/patches :-P
20110408 05:44:44< Zippydaspinhead> Yeah
20110408 05:44:49< Zippydaspinhead> looked at that earlier
20110408 05:44:52< Aethaeryn> Yeah, I need to get patches in ASAP this weekend
20110408 05:44:54< Zippydaspinhead> crazy detail
20110408 05:44:57< Aethaeryn> Crab_ got a ton in
20110408 05:45:06< Aethaeryn> Of course, code speaks louder than words
20110408 05:45:36< epyon> Aaaah, the Goals section is EPIC
20110408 05:45:51< epyon> Reminds me what Nokia sent use when I was working with them :D
20110408 05:47:53< gabba> Zippydaspinhead: rather, the more you show that you know what you're talking about and that you studied the issue in depth, the better
20110408 05:48:18< Zippydaspinhead> oh yes I understand
20110408 05:48:18< gabba> Zippydaspinhead: formal is usually better because it's clear to read, not because "it's formal"
20110408 05:48:38< Zippydaspinhead> ok thats what I thought, but just wanted to make sure
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20110408 05:55:54 * epyon <3 Wesnoth for being written in Modern C++ :>
20110408 05:57:57< tschmitz> gabba: Usually actions become invalid because someone else got in your unit's way. However, sometimes actions become invalid because the unit for which the action was planned has either moved or died.
20110408 05:58:19< gabba> well yes
20110408 05:58:29< tschmitz> When the unit for which the action was planned has died, it seems like there would be no reason to keep around the invalid action
20110408 05:58:58< gabba> ok I see what you mean. Makes sense.
20110408 05:58:59< tschmitz> except to remind you that whatever that unit was going to do is no longer going to do that task, I suppose?
20110408 05:59:15< gabba> No I'd just suppress it in that case
20110408 05:59:19< tschmitz> Seems like it might make sense to automatically discard invalid actions that fit that category, though
20110408 05:59:31< tschmitz> What about unit-has-moved?
20110408 06:00:08< gabba> Overall I think that if the "source" of the action isn't there anymore, discard it
20110408 06:00:13< tschmitz> This can happen if you switch back to normal mode to make a permanent move, or if there's a WML event, I suppose
20110408 06:00:37< gabba> Invalid is useful when the destination is blocked somehow, but might stopped being blocked
20110408 06:00:46< tschmitz> So when the actor unit is gone, discard it
20110408 06:00:46< tschmitz> sounds like a good plan?
20110408 06:01:36< gabba> Yeah. You could consider keeping the planned move attached to the unit even though it moves, though
20110408 06:01:48< gabba> Not sure how that'd work, interface-wise
20110408 06:02:07-!- Xenmen [~Administr@d99-199-58-219.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110408 06:02:34< Xenmen> hey gabba
20110408 06:02:44< gabba> hey Xenmen
20110408 06:02:50< Xenmen> I have a proposal about ready
20110408 06:03:02< Xenmen> it's a two-stage idea   :D
20110408 06:03:43< Xenmen> the difficulty-toggling problem
20110408 06:03:59< Xenmen> it can be fixed by caching all possible values for variables modified by difficulty
20110408 06:04:24< Xenmen> and then an extension to WML for modifying difficulty in-game (from WESNOTH'S perspective, not the user)
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20110408 06:04:44< Xenmen> phase 1 will be implementing that, and testing toggleable difficulty in single-player mode
20110408 06:04:48< gabba> Xenmen: hmm. Unfortunately I have to leave since I have work to do and I can't concentrate with IRC on
20110408 06:04:57< Xenmen> Ah, alright   D:
20110408 06:05:05-!- tschmitz [18827665@gateway/web/freenode/ip.24.130.118.101] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
20110408 06:05:15< gabba> Sorry :(
20110408 06:05:28< Xenmen> I understand completely
20110408 06:05:40< Xenmen> fendrin: mayhaps you have a minute?   D:
20110408 06:06:20< tschmitz_> gabba: Oh really, you have to go?
20110408 06:06:46< tschmitz_> gabba: I was going to mention that it's getting late and my proposal will probably take quite a bit more time
20110408 06:07:01< Xenmen> Google's really strict about the timeline; NO late submissions   DX
20110408 06:07:14< gabba> Yeah, I'll give you a means to reach me about the whiteboard, but I've urgent work to do
20110408 06:07:16< Xenmen> it's got me rushing too...
20110408 06:07:25< gabba> bye guys, good luck to all
20110408 06:07:54< Xenmen> take care, and good luck with your work!
20110408 06:08:01< gabba> thanks Xenmen
20110408 06:08:03-!- gabba [~gabba@wesnoth/developer/gabba] has left #wesnoth-dev []
20110408 06:08:10< Xenmen> tschmitz: by the way, are you Conner from SFU?   D:
20110408 06:08:35-!- epyon [~IceChat77@89-73-132-59.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Quit: He who laughs last, thinks slowest]
20110408 06:08:41< Xenmen> He told me he was applying for the whiteboard modifications
20110408 06:09:02< tschmitz_> Xenmen: weird; no I'm not
20110408 06:09:11< Xenmen> Ah, 'kay
20110408 06:09:27< tschmitz_> No one else has proposed on the wiki for the whiteboard project, I believe?
20110408 06:09:48< Xenmen> not that the ideas page on the wiki has been updated, no
20110408 06:09:59< Xenmen> but then again, my page isn't listed there either
20110408 06:10:20< Xenmen> I guess he and I are both unfamiliar with mediawiki   X]
20110408 06:10:25-!- tschmitz [18827665@gateway/web/freenode/ip.24.130.118.101] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110408 06:11:10< tschmitz> I copied other people's proposals to get that to work
20110408 06:11:25< Xenmen> XD
20110408 06:11:37< Xenmen> smart man
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20110408 06:17:55< Aethaeryn> I'm a wiki moderator and I just copied and pasted to get it to work. :-P
20110408 06:18:08< Aethaeryn> It's template magic, so just make sure you have the template and the ==Description==
20110408 06:18:35< Xenmen> I copypasted the SoC2011 template page, I even copypasted a couple other tags trying to get that to work   XP
20110408 06:18:40< Xenmen> I'll just have to look a bit closer now...
20110408 06:18:48< Xenmen> do you know if it's at the top or bottom?
20110408 06:18:53< Aethaeryn> http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SoC2011_Template_of_Student_page
20110408 06:19:00< Aethaeryn> top
20110408 06:19:01< Xenmen> or maybe I should just copypaste the whole thing and then reinsert my proposal
20110408 06:19:04< fendrin> Xenmen: hi
20110408 06:19:06< Xenmen> ah, goody   :D
20110408 06:19:06< Aethaeryn> Template then immediately followed by description
20110408 06:19:13< Xenmen> fendrin: hullo!
20110408 06:19:17< fendrin> :-)
20110408 06:19:26< Xenmen> fendrin: what do you think of that idea?   :D
20110408 06:19:47< Aethaeryn> hmm
20110408 06:19:50< Xenmen> Aethaeryn: thanks; fixin'...   :B
20110408 06:19:52< Aethaeryn> glancing at some other projects...
20110408 06:19:58< Aethaeryn> Am I the only one who starts counting at 0?
20110408 06:20:06< Xenmen> Nope   :D
20110408 06:20:14< fendrin> Xenmen: Give    keyboard broken
20110408 06:20:17< Aethaeryn> Well, technically Lua is a language that starts its index at 1 :-P
20110408 06:20:26< fendrin>                       mvcccccccm,vccccm,,,mvccccccc,,,,,,,,,,,,jjn,        
20110408 06:20:28< Aethaeryn> So since my proposal relates to Lua it's the worst place to do the pun :-P
20110408 06:20:30< Xenmen> XDDD
20110408 06:21:03< Aethaeryn> Eh, it's okay, half the project is in C anyway I think
20110408 06:21:19< Xenmen> (I have a  fuzzy monitor now; do pardon if I misspell names that I haven't memorized the spelling for yet...)
20110408 06:35:54< MGoods|RangerM> I need to talk to Crab before i finish redoing my proposal (mostly filling in the technical details), does anyone know if he'll be on before then, and if he won't does anyone know who else understands the 'thought process' of the current AI? (as well as the details of the code surrounding the actual GSoC project)
20110408 06:36:16< Xenmen> in Pacific time, he'll probably be on about 2:00am or so
20110408 06:36:20< Xenmen> which MIGHT be too late   D:
20110408 06:36:30< Xenmen> pm him right away
20110408 06:36:35< Xenmen> ask around for his e-mail
20110408 06:36:39< Xenmen> he'll probably check that sooner
20110408 06:36:49< MGoods|RangerM> I'm GMT, and I think he's europe, and deadline is 7pm my time I think
20110408 06:37:00< Xenmen> DX
20110408 06:37:11< MGoods|RangerM> but dont quote me on that
20110408 06:37:36< Xenmen> *panic*panic*panic*
20110408 06:37:39< MGoods|RangerM> Any ideas about who else knows about the AI side of things?
20110408 06:37:54< Xenmen> maybe fendrin or noy
20110408 06:38:18< Xenmen> or shadowmaster
20110408 06:38:22< Xenmen> just because he's so nice   :D
20110408 06:38:33< MGoods|RangerM> I thought Noy was strictly non-coding, that he did balancing? (or am I thinking of hte other multiplayer dev that i remember)
20110408 06:38:38< Xenmen> well, yeah
20110408 06:38:47< Xenmen> but he does do design
20110408 06:38:56< Xenmen> depends how low-level your questions are
20110408 06:38:57< noy> I'm the deputy administrator
20110408 06:39:24< MGoods|RangerM> Hey Noy, long itme no see (although I think we only ever spoke briefly on the forums anyway)
20110408 06:39:41< noy> yeah.
20110408 06:39:43< noy> hi
20110408 06:39:49< fendrin> MGoods|RangerM: AI is the field of "Crab_"
20110408 06:40:28< MGoods|RangerM> and quite low level unfortunately, it's the technical details that I need for my proposal submission, higher level stuff is just me thinking ahead, trying to work out how to improve the AI as  awhole, I like a challange :P
20110408 06:40:50< MGoods|RangerM> yeah, I suppose i'll have to hope he gets back on before the deadline
20110408 06:41:09< fendrin> Xenmen: Well, I maintain 2 mainline campaigns and I fear that dynamic difficult level is just another problem when balancing them.
20110408 06:41:27< Xenmen> that'll be for testing purposes only
20110408 06:41:42< Xenmen> keeping an in-game submenu for difficulty is temporary
20110408 06:42:03< Xenmen> because yeah, it'd wreck havor with balancing   D:
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20110408 06:42:18< MGoods|RangerM> come to think of it, so would improving the AI O.O
20110408 06:42:20< fendrin> It's not the ingame, it is the per scenario difficult setting I fear per se.
20110408 06:43:05< Xenmen> the variables modificied by difficulty; that's not standardized across all campaigns?
20110408 06:43:08< fendrin> Xenmen: But don't let me stop you.
20110408 06:43:11< MGoods|RangerM> no
20110408 06:43:16< Xenmen> Aaaah
20110408 06:43:17< Xenmen> D:
20110408 06:43:21< Xenmen> minor setback
20110408 06:43:26< MGoods|RangerM> difficulty settings are values entered by scenario designers
20110408 06:43:37< Xenmen> hrm
20110408 06:43:39< MGoods|RangerM> basically, just how much gold the AI gets given (or it was back when I wrote scenarios)
20110408 06:43:43< fendrin> Xenmen: No, difficult settings are done by preprocessor directives. It has little to do with variables.
20110408 06:43:48< MGoods|RangerM> might have changed since then
20110408 06:43:59< Xenmen> well, the parser changes will be a lot trickier now then
20110408 06:44:06< Xenmen> but I have an ace up my sleeve
20110408 06:44:10< Xenmen> GENERATOR FUNCTIONS
20110408 06:44:23< Xenmen> every time ANY campaign variable is referenced
20110408 06:44:37< Xenmen> that reference will be replaced with a function call
20110408 06:44:48< Xenmen> but
20110408 06:44:51< Xenmen> ohwait a moment...
20110408 06:44:58< fendrin> Again, we are not talking about variables here.
20110408 06:45:02< MGoods|RangerM> ah, bad idea, some variables are values for events, not balancing
20110408 06:45:36< Xenmen> so even something like enemy positions
20110408 06:45:37< MGoods|RangerM> actually, I should shut up and let fendrin explain, my info is about four years out of date so...
20110408 06:45:42< Xenmen> starting positions
20110408 06:45:50< Xenmen> that can all change based on difficulty?
20110408 06:46:55< fendrin> huh
20110408 06:47:05< Xenmen> in-game difficulty changing will be impossible now, yeah... but if I put another window before the game BEGINS
20110408 06:47:11< Xenmen> where you can toggle difficulty
20110408 06:47:21< fendrin> Xenmen: You need to have look at a scenario and how that is handled.
20110408 06:47:40< fendrin> Do you know how the macros do work?
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20110408 06:47:55< Xenmen> nope
20110408 06:48:32< fendrin> Well, you should learn first how that works and make plans afterwards. It will never work if you go vice versa.
20110408 06:49:09< fendrin> Xenmen: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/PreprocessorRef
20110408 06:49:12< Xenmen> that, and WML...
20110408 06:49:28< Xenmen> thanks
20110408 06:49:49< fendrin> You are welcome :-)
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20110408 07:01:38< Aethaeryn> epyon: I was shamelessly copying Crab_'s old timeline layout, but it'd be too much of a copy if I had the last date be "Afterwards"
20110408 07:02:01< Xenmen> HOORA I fixed the categories thing   :D
20110408 07:02:02< Aethaeryn> Do you think I did a good equivalent to "afterwards"? http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SoC2011_Student_Page_Aethaeryn#The_Implementation:_Timeline
20110408 07:02:07< Xenmen> my proposal shows up now
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20110408 07:03:17< Xenmen> still under-construction...
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20110408 07:27:09< Zippydaspinhead> would someone be willing to look at my proposal and make suggestions?
20110408 07:27:59< Xenmen> Tell you what
20110408 07:28:02< Xenmen> I'm almost done mine
20110408 07:28:07< Xenmen> in a minute
20110408 07:28:09< Xenmen> I'll look through yours
20110408 07:28:12< Xenmen> and you look through mine
20110408 07:28:13< Xenmen> :D
20110408 07:28:14< Xenmen> howzat?
20110408 07:28:53< Zippydaspinhead> sounds good to me
20110408 07:29:10< Zippydaspinhead> what project you submitting for?
20110408 07:29:22< Xenmen> Multiplayer Improvements
20110408 07:29:27< fendrin> Xenmen: howzat is a slang?
20110408 07:29:34< Zippydaspinhead> Nice, spritesheets here
20110408 07:29:54< Zippydaspinhead> fendrin: yes it means "how is that?"
20110408 07:30:01< Xenmen> fendrin: yup, "how's that?"
20110408 07:30:01< fendrin> Xenmen: Please remember we are not all native English speakers. Please use proper English words.
20110408 07:30:09< Xenmen> Ah, my apologies
20110408 07:30:15< fendrin> No problem.
20110408 07:30:24< Xenmen> I will refrain then
20110408 07:30:24< Aethaeryn> Xenmen: your heading seems to be overriding the page
20110408 07:30:32< Xenmen> D:
20110408 07:30:34< Aethaeryn> http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SummerOfCodeIdeas#Daniel_Jan_Joseph_Tadeuszow_-_Practical_Multiplayer
20110408 07:30:36< fendrin> My English is that bad that I need at least valid words to use a dictionary.
20110408 07:30:42< Aethaeryn> it's the same level as "reengineer Wesnoth's multiplayer engine"
20110408 07:30:46< Aethaeryn> you need to lower it one so it's a subheading
20110408 07:30:58< Zippydaspinhead> also do we need to edit the main page with our proposal or ask someone to do it for us?
20110408 07:31:16< Xenmen> whoops
20110408 07:31:16< Xenmen> thanks for catching that   D:
20110408 07:31:31< Aethaeryn> Zippydaspinhead: it's templated in
20110408 07:31:38< Aethaeryn> through MediaWiki magic called transclusion
20110408 07:31:54< Xenmen> (should be fixed now)
20110408 07:31:55< Zippydaspinhead> err...
20110408 07:32:06< Zippydaspinhead> i must have done something wrong then... since its not showing up there
20110408 07:32:35< Aethaeryn> Xenmen: Perhaps move all of that stuff one heading down, like I did on my page.
20110408 07:32:40< Aethaeryn> So that description is brief, to about a paragraph
20110408 07:32:50< Aethaeryn> because of that transclusion stuff
20110408 07:32:58< Xenmen> (Just noticed; a lot of what I filled out for the questionaire has mysteriously disappeared   D:   )
20110408 07:33:16< Xenmen> Aethaeryn: think I fixed that just now
20110408 07:33:16< Aethaeryn> http://wiki.wesnoth.org/index.php?title=SoC2011_Xenmen&action=history
20110408 07:33:56< Aethaeryn> Xenmen: no, I mean perhaps put another heading between Description and 1) Familiarize myself with Wesnoth codebase
20110408 07:33:59< Aethaeryn> http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SoC2011_Xenmen <- there
20110408 07:34:09< Zippydaspinhead> hmm...
20110408 07:34:09< Aethaeryn> so that when it's included in the main page it doesn't have too much content there
20110408 07:34:27< Xenmen> ah
20110408 07:34:28< Xenmen> I see
20110408 07:34:31< Xenmen> yup fixin' that
20110408 07:34:32< Zippydaspinhead> do you use html tags to post a link here?
20110408 07:34:35< Aethaeryn> each of your little points is longer than the other two candidates in that subheading :P
20110408 07:35:00< Xenmen> and fixed
20110408 07:35:02< Xenmen> and
20110408 07:35:03< Xenmen> yes
20110408 07:35:05< Xenmen> you use a tag
20110408 07:35:07< Xenmen> just a moment
20110408 07:35:09< Xenmen> I'll post it
20110408 07:35:21< Xenmen> at the top of your page
20110408 07:35:24< Xenmen> when you edit it
20110408 07:35:28< Xenmen> you should have something like this
20110408 07:35:28< Xenmen> [[Category:SoC Ideas Multiplayer Improvements 2011]]
20110408 07:35:29< Xenmen> [[Category:Summer of Code 2011 Student Page]]
20110408 07:35:44< Xenmen> if you're not doing multiplayer (which few people are) change that to be the 'category' that you're in
20110408 07:35:44< Xenmen> :D
20110408 07:35:54< Xenmen> check the category pages for GSoC 2011
20110408 07:35:57< Xenmen> *related to
20110408 07:36:31< Zippydaspinhead> ah
20110408 07:36:32< Zippydaspinhead> ok
20110408 07:36:50< Zippydaspinhead> in the GSoC cats but no the spritesheet ones
20110408 07:37:32< Aethaeryn> Xenmen: your heading still breaks the ToC it seems
20110408 07:37:37< Aethaeryn> http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SummerOfCodeIdeas
20110408 07:37:54< Aethaeryn> So apparently you need to be the same size as the rest, or else it'll think they're subheadings
20110408 07:38:34< Aethaeryn> Hmm, wow there's a lot of applications.
20110408 07:39:12< Zippydaspinhead> err
20110408 07:39:21< Xenmen> it's
20110408 07:39:23< Xenmen> fixed
20110408 07:39:24< Xenmen> now
20110408 07:39:25< Xenmen> D:
20110408 07:39:26< Xenmen> what do you mean
20110408 07:39:33< Xenmen> has been for a good 5 minutes
20110408 07:39:35< Xenmen> try reloading
20110408 07:39:41< Xenmen> I was just on the phone
20110408 07:39:43< Xenmen> fixed it before that
20110408 07:39:49< Aethaeryn> http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SummerOfCodeIdeas
20110408 07:39:52< Aethaeryn> Xenmen: see the ToC
20110408 07:39:57< Xenmen> http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SoC_Ideas_Multiplayer_Improvements_2011
20110408 07:40:00< Aethaeryn> They're still subheadings of yours
20110408 07:40:01< Xenmen> it looks good there
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20110408 07:40:03< Aethaeryn> 4.3.1, 4.3.1.1
20110408 07:40:04< Aethaeryn> etc.
20110408 07:40:17< Zippydaspinhead> so i need to add [[Category: SoC Ideas Allow wesnoth to support spritesheets 2011]]
20110408 07:40:18< Zippydaspinhead> ?
20110408 07:40:23< Xenmen> Yes
20110408 07:40:32< Aethaeryn> Zippydaspinhead: You don't need to do the category thing, the template should do it automagically
20110408 07:40:34< Xenmen> I just loaded that other page
20110408 07:40:37< Xenmen> and
20110408 07:40:41< Xenmen> it's good
20110408 07:40:42< Zippydaspinhead> uh...
20110408 07:40:44< Zippydaspinhead> its not.
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20110408 07:40:49< Xenmen> and it's not automatic
20110408 07:40:52< Xenmen> I had to do it manually
20110408 07:40:57< Aethaeryn> well, it worked for me
20110408 07:41:15< Aethaeryn> check the code on my page
20110408 07:41:18< Xenmen> I did
20110408 07:41:19< Aethaeryn> http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SoC2011_Student_Page_Aethaeryn
20110408 07:41:19< Xenmen> D:
20110408 07:41:23< Xenmen> and it must be magic
20110408 07:41:34< Xenmen> I checked that other guy's page took
20110408 07:41:36< Xenmen> vjoe
20110408 07:41:50< Xenmen> he doesn't have the tage
20110408 07:41:51< Xenmen> *tag
20110408 07:41:53< Xenmen> but he's there
20110408 07:42:07< Xenmen> all I know is that adding that 'category' tag fixes it
20110408 07:42:46< Aethaeryn> if it works it works
20110408 07:42:52< Aethaeryn> I didn't need to do anything special though
20110408 07:43:02< Aethaeryn> but maybe because I'm in the make-your-own category
20110408 07:43:02< Zippydaspinhead> hmm
20110408 07:43:05< Zippydaspinhead> added the tag
20110408 07:43:10< Zippydaspinhead> and it still didn't work...
20110408 07:43:34< Xenmen> GSoC 2012 ideas for Media-wiki: "make it deterministic; no more magic"
20110408 07:43:40< Aethaeryn> protip: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SummerOfCodeProposal_AI_Improvement_Crab
20110408 07:43:53< Aethaeryn> ^ that's apparently a really good application to which they keep referring
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20110408 07:44:14< Aethaeryn> It's also the largest application in terms of size based on http://wiki.wesnoth.org/Special:LongPages
20110408 07:44:24< Aethaeryn> So apparently, being extremely detailed is useful
20110408 07:45:45< Xenmen> OKAY, just wrote up my 'short description' for Google
20110408 07:45:53< Xenmen> [Multiplayer campaigns are broken. This is an issue with the WML parser.
20110408 07:45:53< Xenmen> The chosen difficulty level is passed to the parser, and then it runs through the WML. Depending on the difficulty level, certain values are chosen for various variables. HOWEVER, there is no limit on what can be specified. Many map-specific values (like unit starting positions and in-game text) can even be changed.
20110408 07:45:53< Xenmen> It should be noted that even the available difficulty levels are specified IN the WML code for each campaign.]
20110408 07:46:25< Xenmen> now, who was it who wanted to cross-check proposals?
20110408 07:46:26< Xenmen> D:
20110408 07:47:18< Aethaeryn> probably Zippydaspinhead 
20110408 07:47:22< Aethaeryn> since it's just been us three talking here
20110408 07:47:32< Zippydaspinhead> yeah
20110408 07:47:33< Zippydaspinhead> me
20110408 07:47:34< Aethaeryn> and my proposal isn't anywhere near done
20110408 07:47:42< zaroth> erm... xenmen, where does your desciption say *why* is it broken?
20110408 07:47:45< Zippydaspinhead> still trying to get mine linked into the main page
20110408 07:47:57< Xenmen> oooh   D:   you're right
20110408 07:47:59< zaroth> is it because the "no limit is specified"?
20110408 07:48:08< zaroth> I don't see personally a problem with that ;-)
20110408 07:49:26< zaroth> since I'm also applying for that idea, I'd like to know what other people think ;)
20110408 07:49:59< Zippydaspinhead> ah
20110408 07:50:00< Xenmen> the problem I'm focusing on is difficulty selection
20110408 07:50:01< Zippydaspinhead> now i got it
20110408 07:50:21< Xenmen> right now, in multiplayer, having difficulty selection in the mp lobby
20110408 07:50:23< Aethaeryn> Xenmen: Just difficulty selection?
20110408 07:50:27< Aethaeryn> Is it going to take months?
20110408 07:50:32< Xenmen> would require each client to reparse the WML
20110408 07:50:36< Xenmen> and, maybe two
20110408 07:50:36< Xenmen> max
20110408 07:50:37< Xenmen> D:
20110408 07:50:40< Xenmen> I think I need more
20110408 07:50:46< Xenmen> but I don't really know what yet
20110408 07:51:02< Aethaeryn> Well, you have 13 hours to do the questionaire
20110408 07:51:13< Aethaeryn> And then about two weeks to *finalize* the proposal
20110408 07:51:26< Zippydaspinhead> http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SoC2011_Zippydaspinhead
20110408 07:51:33< Zippydaspinhead> tell me what you think
20110408 07:51:38< Xenmen> I thought the proposal deadline was tomorrow
20110408 07:51:39< Xenmen> hrm
20110408 07:51:50< Xenmen> (ah, yes, reading that now)
20110408 07:51:56< Zippydaspinhead> that was my understanding
20110408 07:51:57< Aethaeryn> Yes, it is "tomorrow" depending on your timezone
20110408 07:52:03< Aethaeryn> but it's at noon Google Standard Time.
20110408 07:52:07< Aethaeryn> Which is Pacific Time
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20110408 07:52:18< Zippydaspinhead> which is 2 PM for me
20110408 07:52:25< Aethaeryn> 3 for me I thikn
20110408 07:52:41< Aethaeryn> I'm just going to stay up a few hours for the Europeans to get back online
20110408 07:52:58< Aethaeryn> the questionaire part is basically ready but I do want to check by them before I submit stuff
20110408 07:54:04< Zippydaspinhead> Yeah that would be nice
20110408 07:54:16< Aethaeryn> I don't want to mess up
20110408 07:54:41< Zippydaspinhead> If you want I can read what you have so far
20110408 07:55:08< Xenmen> zippy, I like your tables there   :D
20110408 07:55:20< Xenmen> are you a web designer?
20110408 07:55:29< Zippydaspinhead> HAHAHA
20110408 07:55:34< Zippydaspinhead> sorry no...
20110408 07:55:49< Zippydaspinhead> I'm in a web programming class right now though
20110408 07:55:57< Xenmen> that explains it   :P
20110408 07:55:59< Zippydaspinhead> and I can't stand it :P
20110408 07:56:12< Zippydaspinhead> php and html are not hard to use
20110408 07:56:19< Zippydaspinhead> but I find them boring
20110408 07:56:24< Aethaeryn> Yes.
20110408 07:56:28< Aethaeryn> I code my HTML in Python
20110408 07:56:30< Xenmen> most of the programmers I know never explain using tables, just really long piles of grumpy text
20110408 07:56:46< zaroth> Aethaeryn: that's the way of the Jedi ;-)
20110408 07:56:55< Zippydaspinhead> haha
20110408 07:57:01< Aethaeryn> HTML is too repetitive, so I can usually find where it repeats and use a scripting language to do all except the heading part
20110408 07:57:13< Zippydaspinhead> I really need to spend some time learning Python
20110408 07:57:21< Xenmen> python is awesome
20110408 07:57:23< Aethaeryn> You just need three files. A plain text to format, a script to format it with, and a .html to output it to
20110408 07:57:27< Xenmen> very convenient language
20110408 07:57:28< Zippydaspinhead> I just haven't gotten around to it
20110408 07:57:41< Xenmen> zippy, where do you live?
20110408 07:57:48< Xenmen> check out the local universities
20110408 07:57:49< Zippydaspinhead> Iowa
20110408 07:57:54< Xenmen> Ah   D:
20110408 07:58:03< Zippydaspinhead> I go to Loras College
20110408 07:58:10< Xenmen> okay, chances of an introductory programming course with Python are slim...
20110408 07:58:16< Zippydaspinhead> We learn primarily C++ and Java here
20110408 07:58:20< Xenmen> Yeah
20110408 07:58:23< Zippydaspinhead> and by that I mean
20110408 07:58:36< Zippydaspinhead> we learn C++ and they expect you to figure Java out yourself
20110408 07:58:47< Xenmen> they got the order mixed up, as usual   :P
20110408 07:58:53< Zippydaspinhead> Pfft
20110408 07:58:59< Zippydaspinhead> I love C++
20110408 07:59:06< Xenmen> C++ is excellent
20110408 07:59:17< Xenmen> but Python -> Java -> C++ is the best progression
20110408 07:59:25< Zippydaspinhead> Probably true
20110408 07:59:25< Xenmen> though, I'll admit, I WAS also exposed to C++ first
20110408 07:59:30< Xenmen> that was back at BCIT
20110408 07:59:42< Xenmen> and it was a quick summer course
20110408 07:59:49< Xenmen> so we just blazed through it
20110408 07:59:59< Xenmen> er, back to reading your prop though   D:
20110408 08:00:09< Zippydaspinhead> why the long face?
20110408 08:00:30< Xenmen> I didn't intend to start rambling, but I caught myself
20110408 08:00:43< Xenmen> I've been taking a few hardware design courses
20110408 08:00:58< Xenmen> and EVERY, LAST, DETAIL, must be documented
20110408 08:01:08< Xenmen> there's nothing quite like circuitry design
20110408 08:01:15< Xenmen> if you have an engineering brain, it's heaven
20110408 08:01:23< Xenmen> if you're not a full-blooded engineer
20110408 08:01:30< Xenmen> (which would be my category)
20110408 08:01:35< Xenmen> then it can be somewhat stressful
20110408 08:01:42-!- GeorgeSebastian [~georgeSeb@unaffiliated/georgesebastian] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
20110408 08:01:57< Xenmen> but the students who aren't in the Applied Science faculty go into cardiac arrest   :D
20110408 08:02:10< Xenmen> the faces they make during the first lecture are priceless
20110408 08:02:30< Xenmen> sheer horror, mixed with timeless wonder
20110408 08:02:32< Zippydaspinhead> It's pretty true here too
20110408 08:02:36< Xenmen> and the sudden realization that they know nothing
20110408 08:02:48< Zippydaspinhead> We had one guy who took that class
20110408 08:02:52< timotei> Aethaeryn: actually *this* is the number of proposals: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/Category:Summer_of_Code_2011_Student_Page
20110408 08:02:52< timotei> :P
20110408 08:03:05< Zippydaspinhead> and switch from his Computer Science major to a math major the next semester
20110408 08:07:21< Aethaeryn> Zippydaspinhead: Wait, are you implying that math is easier than comp sci?
20110408 08:07:31< Zippydaspinhead> nope
20110408 08:07:41< Zippydaspinhead> Just that he switched majors
20110408 08:07:42< Xenmen> Title!
20110408 08:07:43< Xenmen> Parser Improvements, IncludingToggle-able Difficulty for Cooperative Campaigns
20110408 08:08:04< Zippydaspinhead> cause he couldn't handle the hardware aspect of Comp Sci
20110408 08:08:22< Xenmen> It really can be brutal...
20110408 08:08:37< Zippydaspinhead> though  math major is no cake walk either
20110408 08:08:48< Xenmen> very true
20110408 08:08:51< Xenmen> it's probably even worse
20110408 08:09:52< zaroth> timotei: damn, I'm always last ;-)
20110408 08:10:12< timotei> zaroth: :P
20110408 08:10:22< timotei> zaroth: if you chosed that nickname
20110408 08:10:29< zaroth> I should have become an elf
20110408 08:10:32< timotei> maybe you should use something that start with A like Aethaeryn 
20110408 08:10:33< timotei> :D
20110408 08:10:37< zaroth> Aarevandlel
20110408 08:10:46< zaroth> or something
20110408 08:10:53< Zippydaspinhead> well
20110408 08:11:03< Zippydaspinhead> Im further down on the alphabet technically
20110408 08:11:16< Xenmen> I'm not too far behind   :P
20110408 08:11:25< Xenmen> I'm fourth last
20110408 08:11:38< timotei> or event _ or !
20110408 08:11:40< Xenmen> Xenmen, yann, zaroth, Zippydaspinhead
20110408 08:11:42< timotei> so it's sure to be first xD
20110408 08:11:43< Aethaeryn> So... they're going to go down the list and just give up before they get to the bottom?
20110408 08:11:49< Aethaeryn> "Oh, we've found enough good candidates already."
20110408 08:11:56< Zippydaspinhead> haha
20110408 08:11:59< Xenmen> Quite possibly   :P
20110408 08:12:02< Zippydaspinhead> I hope not
20110408 08:12:03< Xenmen> it's certainly happened before
20110408 08:12:16< Aethaeryn> If it has, why aren't you Enmen?
20110408 08:12:54< Zippydaspinhead> So what did you think of my prop?
20110408 08:12:58< Xenmen> because Xenmen was my Steam handle, and I didn't think dtadeusz was a good handle   :P
20110408 08:13:01< Xenmen> which is what I use for uni
20110408 08:13:06< Xenmen> and I think it's pretty good
20110408 08:13:12< Xenmen> @zippy
20110408 08:13:22< timotei> Aethaeryn: no they don't
20110408 08:13:27< timotei> they read everyone, and give rankings
20110408 08:13:31< Xenmen> however, I reaaally really want to see someone use my pixel-encoding idea   D:
20110408 08:13:37< timotei> they can't just: "throw this out, we are already got enough"
20110408 08:13:55< Xenmen> because otherwise you'll have some sprite rows really long
20110408 08:13:56< Aethaeryn> timotei: Yes, I know. It's just that they seemed to be applying that they would give up before the bottom of the list :-p
20110408 08:13:57< Xenmen> and some really short
20110408 08:14:00< Xenmen> and lots of wasted space
20110408 08:14:19< Xenmen> if you have the first pixel in the top left corner encode the sprite data for the top row
20110408 08:14:22< Xenmen> in the RGB values
20110408 08:14:28< Xenmen> (which I've done before, and so have many others)
20110408 08:14:35< Xenmen> then you can have a super efficient system
20110408 08:14:40< Xenmen> and then, when you load it
20110408 08:14:44< Xenmen> after you grab the data
20110408 08:14:54< Xenmen> you overwrite the pixel with the same colour as the one to its right
20110408 08:14:55< Zippydaspinhead> ah I get what your saying
20110408 08:14:57< Xenmen> so that it's transparent again
20110408 08:14:57< Xenmen> :D
20110408 08:15:08< Zippydaspinhead> I like it
20110408 08:15:11< Xenmen> RGB, just enough to have x size, y size, and the number of sprites in the row
20110408 08:15:21< Xenmen> that way, if you have some sprites in the sheet that are smaller than the rest
20110408 08:15:22< Zippydaspinhead> but the main reason I wanted to do it the way i have set up
20110408 08:15:24< Xenmen> or a mixed sprite sheet
20110408 08:15:32< Xenmen> then
20110408 08:15:32< timotei> Xenmen: you might enjoy reading this: http://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=437497056995
20110408 08:15:35< Xenmen> epic
20110408 08:15:36< timotei> in case you know Monaco
20110408 08:15:41< Zippydaspinhead> Is so that its easier for artists to edit
20110408 08:15:47< Zippydaspinhead> though.....
20110408 08:16:14< Xenmen> Steganography!
20110408 08:16:15< Xenmen> :D
20110408 08:16:22< Xenmen> he wait
20110408 08:16:27< Xenmen> *hey wait
20110408 08:16:35< Xenmen> timotec: are YOU Conner?
20110408 08:16:55< Xenmen> *timotei
20110408 08:16:59< Xenmen> (fuzzy monitor here)
20110408 08:17:42-!- Max20010 [~chatzilla@d91-128-237-120.cust.tele2.at] has joined #wesnoth-dev
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20110408 08:17:56< Zippydaspinhead> I wonder how hard it would be to make it so that the GUI tool I proposed could do your Bit encoding idea automatically
20110408 08:18:04< Xenmen> you must be
20110408 08:18:12< timotei> Xenmen: Conner?
20110408 08:18:14< Zippydaspinhead> and re-arrange the png accordingly
20110408 08:18:16< Xenmen> that sounds like the handle you said you were using yesterday
20110408 08:18:23< Xenmen> yup
20110408 08:18:30< timotei> Xenmen: btw, you don't use autocomplete for completing the nicks?
20110408 08:18:31< Xenmen> I'm Daniel from SFU   :P
20110408 08:18:36< timotei> Xenmen: no. I'm Timotei.
20110408 08:18:36< timotei> :P
20110408 08:18:41< timotei> I don't usually use nicknames
20110408 08:18:41< Xenmen> oh hrm
20110408 08:18:52< Xenmen> and, no, I use pidgin
20110408 08:19:19< Xenmen> what it has in compatibility, it lacks in... well, everywhere else   :D
20110408 08:19:25< zaroth> hey guys, just a note for simple chatter, since some devs (e.g. mordante) are reading the IRC logs, they could appreciate it if you moved the non-code and non-gsoc related discussions to #wesnoth-offtopic ;-)
20110408 08:19:38< Xenmen> Ah, right   :X   sorry
20110408 08:19:55< timotei> zaroth: well, tbh, I've already skipped last nights discussion :P
20110408 08:20:25< Xenmen> I'm glad it wasn't my fault that time   X]
20110408 08:20:27< zaroth> timotei: me as well, I tried to read the logs, but it was just too much sometimes ;-)
20110408 08:20:34< Xenmen> oh, by the way
20110408 08:20:40< Xenmen> in addition to sprite sheets
20110408 08:20:49< Zippydaspinhead> hmm?
20110408 08:20:56< Xenmen> are there any plans to store the sheets in tarballs?
20110408 08:21:13< Xenmen> or some other compressed format?
20110408 08:21:32< Zippydaspinhead> I'm not sure
20110408 08:21:36< timotei> Xenmen: I guess it's up to you to propose things like that
20110408 08:21:55< timotei> but note that currently the music is the single one taking a lot of space :)
20110408 08:22:06< Zippydaspinhead> Honestly I haven't had the chance to talk to boucman
20110408 08:22:26< Xenmen> Hrm... time to consider Midi   :D
20110408 08:22:28< Zippydaspinhead> otherwise I would have fleshed out my prop quite a lot more
20110408 08:22:48< timotei> Xenmen: I think ogg is fine :P
20110408 08:23:01< timotei> hmm, well the images are bout 70 MB in 1.9.4
20110408 08:23:04< Xenmen> Ogg is usually about the same size as mp3
20110408 08:23:21< Xenmen> btw, the image format is limited to png right?
20110408 08:23:25< timotei> Xenmen: if you think, you could propose the tarball stored spriteseets
20110408 08:23:44 * zaroth likes the current music in wesnoth, and would be sad if it was replaced by midi synthesiser beeps
20110408 08:24:03< timotei> Xenmen: since, currently the cache of the config files are stored using gzip
20110408 08:24:25< Xenmen> timotei: maybe I should   D:
20110408 08:24:51< timotei> Xenmen: hmm, I've turned the images folder into a zip file, and from 72.3 turned into 73.4 MB (the zip file) lol
20110408 08:24:54< Xenmen> zaroth: we don't need to use straight Midi, just a midi-like format   :D
20110408 08:25:11< Xenmen> If you ever played N64 games, you'll know that modified Midi can sound great
20110408 08:25:15< zaroth> timotei: that's what you get for trying to be better than optipng!
20110408 08:25:47< timotei> :)
20110408 08:25:48< Xenmen> if Wesnoth teams up with an open Midi music maker, and Wesnoth assembles a set of instruments for use, then it could save a TON of space
20110408 08:26:12< Xenmen> zip file?
20110408 08:26:12< Xenmen> wat
20110408 08:26:22< Xenmen> no no no, try 7z, with ultra compression
20110408 08:26:27< Xenmen> go grap 7zip   D:
20110408 08:26:34< Xenmen> the .zip format is awful for compression
20110408 08:28:10< Aethaeryn> I like .tar.bz2
20110408 08:28:39< Xenmen> well, it wouldn't hurt to try both
20110408 08:28:42< Espreon> Wesnoth is limited to whatever SDL supports...
20110408 08:28:56< Xenmen> there are definitely advantages to tar/bz2
20110408 08:29:08< Xenmen> Esperon: But SDL DOES support Midi!
20110408 08:29:10< Xenmen> :D
20110408 08:29:21< Xenmen> I haven't checked if it supports custom instrument sets
20110408 08:29:23< Espreon> Aethaeryn: To whom is this fellow speaking?
20110408 08:29:25< Xenmen> but that SHOULD be possible
20110408 08:29:28< Espreon> I see no Esperon.
20110408 08:29:37< Xenmen> sorry sah   D:   fuzzy monitor
20110408 08:29:49< Aethaeryn> Espeon: idk
20110408 08:29:50< Xenmen> I cannot make out names with anything greater than 80% precision
20110408 08:29:56< Espreon> Aethaeryn: Cute.
20110408 08:29:59< Aethaeryn> hmm .7z is LGPL. Idk why I don't see it more often.
20110408 08:30:17< Aethaeryn> *oh*
20110408 08:30:19< zaroth> .rar charged the marked early
20110408 08:30:26< Aethaeryn> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7z#Limitations
20110408 08:30:26< zaroth> s/marked/market/
20110408 08:30:28< Aethaeryn> that's a limitation
20110408 08:30:40< Aethaeryn> zaroth: what's a .rar? :-P
20110408 08:30:40< Xenmen> .rar is considered a cryptological weapon   :[
20110408 08:30:44< Xenmen> at least, winrar is
20110408 08:30:57< Espreon> As for converting to midi... no.
20110408 08:31:02< Xenmen> XP
20110408 08:31:08< Xenmen> *modified* midi
20110408 08:31:10< Xenmen> remember that
20110408 08:31:31< Xenmen> of course it won't happen
20110408 08:31:38< Xenmen> but it's an idea that should be spread
20110408 08:31:53< Xenmen> so that other projects can use it before they get stuck with a bunch of great songs like Wesnoth is
20110408 08:32:09< Aethaeryn> So many things are better than .rar
20110408 08:32:13< Aethaeryn> And msot of them are free
20110408 08:32:16< Xenmen> Ah, that reminds me: Sleep Is Death
20110408 08:32:23< Xenmen> that game
20110408 08:32:25< Aethaeryn> but because pirates use .rar for everything, it's fairly common
20110408 08:32:31< Xenmen> it implements something very similar to my modified midi idea
20110408 08:32:51< zaroth> Aethaeryn: insert "windows" in place of ".rar"
20110408 08:32:54< zaroth> and it's still true
20110408 08:32:55< zaroth> ;-)
20110408 08:33:04< Espreon> Sleep is indeed death.
20110408 08:33:08< zaroth> or "any other closed solution that happened to enter the market early"
20110408 08:33:51< Xenmen> tar.7z
20110408 08:33:58< Xenmen> solution to all the world's problems
20110408 08:35:24< Zippydaspinhead> Well gents I will take my leave and try to sleep some more.  Then more work on my prop.
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20110408 08:35:43< Espreon> Well, it is time for me to die as well.
20110408 08:35:45< Espreon> Byez.
20110408 08:35:54< Aethaeryn> I'm evil anyway, I tend to use gzip
20110408 08:35:55< Xenmen> 'night
20110408 08:36:19< Espreon> ... but... what about bzip2?
20110408 08:36:25< Espreon> Yeah, not time...
20110408 08:36:31< Aethaeryn> tar.bz2 is slower
20110408 08:36:34-!- vultraz [~chatzilla@124.109.10.191] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110408 08:36:50< Aethaeryn> so when size really doesn't matter and I might as well have been just .tar'ing it, I tend to just default to .tar.gz
20110408 08:36:57< Aethaeryn> And I've seen that happen a lot :-P
20110408 08:37:07< Aethaeryn> It seems to be the de facto lazy choice
20110408 08:37:10< Espreon> Blargh...
20110408 08:37:34< Espreon> Byez for realz.
20110408 08:37:42< Xenmen> bye-bye buddy
20110408 08:37:44< Aethaeryn> oh wow, Wesnoth uses .gz
20110408 08:38:23< Aethaeryn> I think the one thing all the compression geeks can agree on though
20110408 08:38:25< Aethaeryn> is that .zip sucks
20110408 08:39:37 * Xenmen agrees on
20110408 08:50:04< Upthorn> Aethaeryn: you don't think they can agree that 7z rocks?
20110408 08:51:40< Aethaeryn> Upthorn: nah, tar.7z rocks ;-)
20110408 08:52:57< Xenmen> .tar.7z is probably the best route
20110408 08:56:12< Xenmen> http://www.google-melange.com/gsoc/proposal/review/google/gsoc2011/dtadeuszow/1
20110408 08:56:13< Xenmen> BOOYA
20110408 08:57:00< Aethaeryn> Xenmen: Is it possible to rename proposals?
20110408 08:57:08< Aethaeryn> I don't want to submit it if it's not
20110408 08:57:14< Xenmen> I don't think so
20110408 08:57:17< Aethaeryn> at least not until I think about the name a bit
20110408 08:57:23< Xenmen> but
20110408 08:57:26< Xenmen> it's better than waiting
20110408 08:57:28< Xenmen> in my opinion
20110408 08:57:41< Xenmen> because really; I think they'll take the posting time into consideration
20110408 08:57:49< Xenmen> a last-minute send? DOESN'T look good...
20110408 08:57:54< Aethaeryn> wait
20110408 08:58:38< Aethaeryn> I thought the content was just the questionaire?
20110408 08:58:42< Aethaeryn> and the wiki is for the specifics?
20110408 08:59:47< Xenmen> D:
20110408 08:59:51< Xenmen> I have no clue
20110408 08:59:58< Xenmen> but the questionaire is huge
20110408 09:00:00< Aethaeryn> like, I have the submission page up
20110408 09:00:03< timotei> Aethaeryn: yeah
20110408 09:00:04< Aethaeryn> and it's just the questionaire in the Content*
20110408 09:00:05< Xenmen> and it seemed weird to include it there
20110408 09:00:09< timotei> Aethaeryn: change what? the linkid?
20110408 09:00:18< Aethaeryn> timotei: the name of the project
20110408 09:00:50< Aethaeryn> I'd submit it now in case I sleep 12 hours, but I don't want to have an unchangeable suck name
20110408 09:00:59< timotei> Aethaeryn: you can edit them:)
20110408 09:01:15< timotei> Aethaeryn: that is, edit the project title
20110408 09:01:27< timotei> and short description(abstract), content, et al
20110408 09:01:28< Xenmen> also
20110408 09:01:31< Xenmen> YES you can update them
20110408 09:01:38< Xenmen> oh timotei already confirmed that
20110408 09:01:42< Xenmen> well, DOUBLE confirmation!   :D
20110408 09:01:48 * Xenmen confirmed timotei's allegation
20110408 09:01:53< timotei> gzipped information xD
20110408 09:04:53< Aethaeryn> timotei: well, okay, then.
20110408 09:05:00< Aethaeryn> I'll just edit my stuff a little bit and then get some sleep
20110408 09:05:09< Aethaeryn> intended for 6 hours, probably 12, but at least it will be in :-P
20110408 09:05:53< timotei> wow. it's already 3 o'clock
20110408 09:05:54< timotei> xD
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20110408 09:20:51< tschmitz> nagbot2: tschmitz ?
20110408 09:21:03< Xenmen> everyone's deaaaaaad
20110408 09:21:07< Xenmen> sleep is death
20110408 09:21:13< Xenmen> which... now includes me.....   :'[
20110408 09:21:16< Xenmen> 'night all
20110408 09:21:21 * Xenmen descends into the darkness...
20110408 09:21:26-!- Xenmen [~Administr@d99-199-58-219.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
20110408 09:24:41< Qbunia> ;) hi there
20110408 09:28:43-!- Guest36917 is now known as Bastion
20110408 09:29:04-!- Bastion is now known as ChocoboDundee
20110408 09:36:47< timotei> tschmitz: you can ask him in a queyr
20110408 09:36:50< timotei> query*
20110408 09:37:09< timotei> tschmitz: like Crab_ said, it's faster
20110408 09:39:59< tschmitz> timotei: Oh thanks
20110408 09:42:16-!- mjs-de [~mjs-de@e182045214.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #wesnoth-dev
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20110408 09:44:18< Ivanovic> moin
20110408 09:45:05< Aethaeryn> perfect
20110408 09:45:21< Aethaeryn> Ivanovic: I'm about to submit the questionnaire
20110408 09:45:28< Aethaeryn> and then go to sleep
20110408 09:45:36-!- champ [~AndChat@117.136.0.4] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
20110408 09:45:39< Aethaeryn> there is a chance that I'll oversleep the deadline so this might be final
20110408 09:45:53< Aethaeryn> Ivanovic: can you look it over briefly to see if I'm doing something wrong?
20110408 09:45:57< Aethaeryn> http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SoC2011_Student_Page_Aethaeryn#Questionnaire
20110408 09:46:07< Ivanovic> sorry, no time atm
20110408 09:46:26< Aethaeryn> ok
20110408 09:46:32< Aethaeryn> I understand, it's a busy time of the year
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20110408 09:50:00< Upthorn> Aethaeryn: even if you oversleep google's final, you can continue to edit the wiki page.
20110408 09:50:09< Aethaeryn> yes
20110408 09:50:11< Aethaeryn> I am aware
20110408 09:50:36< Aethaeryn> there's no way in hell I'm going to have a complete proposal by exactly 3 pm EDT
20110408 09:50:54< Aethaeryn> Especially since the people I need to consult about the technical specifics are going to be sleeping for the next few hours or so
20110408 09:51:05< Qbunia> Aethaeryn: got the same thing :D
20110408 09:51:12< Qbunia> or issue i should say
20110408 09:51:24< Aethaeryn> So I submit the stuff that's actually due
20110408 09:51:39< Aethaeryn> the questionnaire and the short description and the title
20110408 09:58:34< Aethaeryn> heh, it's funny filling out the quesionnaire
20110408 09:59:28< Aethaeryn> I never realized how much time I wasted... er.... how much time I spent gaining experience in Wesnoth
20110408 10:11:13< Aethaeryn> wesbot: crab_
20110408 10:11:19< Aethaeryn> wesbot: seen crab_
20110408 10:11:19< wesbot> Aethaeryn: The person with the nick Crab_ last spoke 9h 36m ago.  9h 29m ago they left with the message: Quit: Leaving.
20110408 10:11:35< Aethaeryn> ok, time to get some sleep before I don't have any time at all for sleep :-P
20110408 10:11:41< Aethaeryn> I'll leave my IRC up
20110408 10:22:38-!- FishbaitHarry [fishbaitha@accu104.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #wesnoth-dev
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20110408 10:25:13< vultraz> I have some terrain ideas but I don't know how to draw them 
20110408 10:26:52-!- timotei [~timotei@wesnoth/developer/timotei] has quit [Quit: SIGKILL]
20110408 10:27:18-!- timotei [~timotei@89.43.196.13] has joined #wesnoth-dev
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20110408 10:29:04< vultraz> maybe some frozen sunken castles
20110408 10:29:30< vultraz> or a snowy ruined human castle keep
20110408 10:30:34< vultraz> and is anybody working on dark forest or hanging cave bridge terrains?
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20110408 10:37:17< nagbot2> Hi!
20110408 10:37:19< nagbot2> Attention all potential GSoC students:
20110408 10:37:20< nagbot2> Fill out the application form at google
20110408 10:37:23< nagbot2> http://www.google-melange.com/gsoc/profile/student/google/gsoc2011?org=wesnoth
20110408 10:37:25< nagbot2> You NEED to submit your application till 8th april 2011, 19:00 UTC (12:00 PST)
20110408 10:37:27< nagbot2> Everyone not enlisted in the google tracker at that time will have *no* chance to participate with Wesnoth as part of Summer of Code 2011, no matter how good your proposal in the wiki is or *whatever*
20110408 10:37:29< nagbot2> Please do this now
20110408 10:37:31< nagbot2> The more good patches you submit, the better
20110408 10:37:33< nagbot2> Discuss your ideas here - get important feedback from developers
20110408 10:40:36-!- GeorgeSebastian [~georgeSeb@unaffiliated/georgesebastian] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110408 10:41:57< FishbaitHarry> I submitted by application form 3 days ago, but I'm still on the "Student proposals not submitted to google" list, should I worry about it or just wait? I just added the link to the proposal to the wiki now, just in case.
20110408 10:43:50< timotei> FishbaitHarry: you need to add =Soc Application= [http://linkto google] into your proposal :)
20110408 10:45:42-!- akzfowl2 [~akzfowl@1.186.9.87] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
20110408 10:52:13< FishbaitHarry> ok thx
20110408 11:14:33< timotei> epyon, Qbunia, MGoods|RangerM : please don't forget to submit the application to google. If you don't do that you won't even be considered to gsoc!
20110408 11:14:41-!- champ [~AndChat@117.136.0.4] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
20110408 11:14:50< timotei> and there is fewer than 9 hours till deadline
20110408 11:14:56< timotei> s/is/are
20110408 11:15:07< Qbunia> timotei: yesi  know timotei ! :P
20110408 11:18:02-!- LordNasty [~NaSTy@93-43-128-71.ip92.fastwebnet.it] has quit []
20110408 11:20:13-!- Nephro [~Dmitry@80.233.231.12] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110408 11:20:58< tschmitz> Welcome, Nephro.
20110408 11:21:13< Nephro> Mornin' :)
20110408 11:21:34< tschmitz> I guess it's morning, at 2am
20110408 11:21:48-!- champ [~AndChat@117.136.0.203] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110408 11:22:28< tschmitz> I imagine there's a (rather distributed with regards to location) proposal party going on at the moment
20110408 11:33:42-!- Max20010 [~chatzilla@d91-128-237-120.cust.tele2.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds]
20110408 11:35:51-!- Nephro [~Dmitry@80.233.231.12] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
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20110408 11:47:28< tschmitz> wb
20110408 11:51:20-!- Appleman1234 [~Appleman1@CPE-60-226-179-130.qld.bigpond.net.au] has joined #wesnoth-dev
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20110408 11:52:36< Nephro> tschmitz, well that's common imho... Although I am surprised that not so many americans participate in GSoC
20110408 11:53:26< tschmitz> Nephro: Still working on mine
20110408 11:53:35< ChocoboDundee> Hello
20110408 11:54:20< ChocoboDundee> I was wondering if I could still write up a proposal?  I know its very late but I just found out about GSoC
20110408 11:55:09< Nephro> ChocoboDundee, you have up until April 8:
20110408 11:55:09< Nephro> 19:00 UTC
20110408 11:55:17< Nephro> I don't know what time that is in your country
20110408 11:55:24< ChocoboDundee> ok
20110408 11:56:01< Nephro> But I think you have to write up a proposal wiki page fast, then submit to google, and then come back and start discussing/deloping wesnoth
20110408 11:56:03< tschmitz> It's approximately 8 hours from now
20110408 11:56:12< ChocoboDundee> I was also wondering if someone could point me in the direction of where image loading and handling is being processed in the source,  I was looking over the display and image cpps
20110408 11:56:27< ChocoboDundee> ok, I did read about the wiki page, and was considering what to write already
20110408 11:56:38< ChocoboDundee> thanks for the responses
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20110408 11:57:51< tschmitz> Once you create a wiki page on the wesnoth wiki, go to google-melange.com and find wesnoth in their list of organizations and apply there
20110408 11:58:17< tschmitz> put a link to your wiki page in the google proposal
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20110408 11:58:54< timotei> ChocoboDundee: src/image.?pp
20110408 12:00:24< Nephro> nagbot2: timotei ?
20110408 12:00:37< timotei> :P
20110408 12:00:43< Nephro> :)
20110408 12:00:47 * Nephro looks casual
20110408 12:00:49< timotei> use a query instead
20110408 12:03:03 * Nephro plans to borrow the task table from timotei's proposal page
20110408 12:03:53< timotei> Nephro: well, it won't fit your idea anyway :P
20110408 12:04:28< Nephro> I know, but I feel sick and horribly lazy today, but need to improve my page somehow
20110408 12:05:11< Nephro> Jogging in the rain must've done something to my health
20110408 12:09:58< FishbaitHarry> The task table does looks nice, but if you do it I'll have to make one too, because I wouldn't want to stay behind the competition. :-)
20110408 12:11:54< timotei> lol
20110408 12:15:54< timotei> FishbaitHarry: I've edited your page to add the proper template, so you will be seen on the main Ideas page ;)
20110408 12:18:24< tschmitz> Who here likes battle.ogg?
20110408 12:21:16< timotei> tschmitz: full name plix?
20110408 12:21:42< timotei> oh. yeah. Battle Music
20110408 12:21:46< tschmitz> It's the Wesnoth song.
20110408 12:21:49< timotei> tschmitz: I think everyone :P
20110408 12:22:10< timotei> I mean, all tracks are awesome :D
20110408 12:22:28< timotei> it's more of a 'I like this better than the other' rather than 'I don't like that (at all)'
20110408 12:22:45< tschmitz> heh
20110408 12:22:54< FishbaitHarry> timotei: Thanks, I must have messed up my template during editing.
20110408 12:22:55< timotei> Loyalists is very nice btw
20110408 12:23:01< tschmitz> it's one of the older songs
20110408 12:23:07< timotei> it reminds me of a ton of games :D
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20110408 12:35:11< Qbunia> i have to create a mail on google to login ?
20110408 12:40:54< timotei> Qbunia: of course
20110408 12:41:10< Qbunia> timotei: it su
20110408 12:41:12< Qbunia> it sux
20110408 12:41:28< timotei> Qbunia: :P not really.
20110408 12:41:37< Qbunia> timotei: why ?
20110408 12:41:42< timotei> I think google mail is the best email service out there
20110408 12:41:45< timotei> (free)
20110408 12:41:56< timotei> and alsom google melange is their system
20110408 12:42:01< timotei> so they use whatever they want ;)
20110408 12:42:07< timotei> s/alsom/also
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20110408 13:17:52< Nephro> timotei, yeah, gmail is the best, agree here totally
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20110408 14:44:23< boucman> hey all 
20110408 14:44:32< boucman> fendrin: looking for me ?
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20110408 15:35:26< Zippydaspinhead> boucman: hello, I was wondering if you could take a look at my proposal and make suggestions?
20110408 15:35:58< boucman> sur, URL plz
20110408 15:36:54< Zippydaspinhead> http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SoC2011_Zippydaspinhead
20110408 15:37:00< Zippydaspinhead> there you are sir
20110408 15:37:12-!- GeorgeSebastian [~georgeSeb@unaffiliated/georgesebastian] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
20110408 15:37:17< nagbot2> Hello!
20110408 15:37:19< nagbot2> GSoC 2011 candidates:
20110408 15:37:22< nagbot2> Please do not forget to submit your application to Google!
20110408 15:37:23< nagbot2> http://www.google-melange.com/gsoc/profile/student/google/gsoc2011?org=wesnoth
20110408 15:37:25< nagbot2> You need to do this until Apr 8th, 19:00 UTC (12:00 PST)
20110408 15:37:26< nagbot2> Everyone not enlisted in the google tracker at that time will have *no* chance to participate with Wesnoth as part of summer of code 2011, no matter how great your patches are or *whatever*
20110408 15:37:27< nagbot2> We can select ONLY people listed there!
20110408 15:37:28< nagbot2> Submit patches and prototypes for review, so we'll see how you work.
20110408 15:37:30< nagbot2> Discuss your ideas here - get important feedback from developers
20110408 15:43:18< boucman> Zippydaspinhead: an image can (and commonly is) used in multiple types of animations
20110408 15:43:31< boucman> (i'll give my comments as I read, so expect no particular order)
20110408 15:43:40< Zippydaspinhead> no thats fine
20110408 15:44:05< Zippydaspinhead> ok, so I need to modify it to allow for that
20110408 15:45:46< boucman> how would you find a particular tile in the spritesheet ? i.e the actual coordinates ? (keep in mind that all images don't have the same size)
20110408 15:46:40< boucman> what tool do you plan to use for sprite sheet designe ? java ? the wesnoth engine ?
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20110408 15:47:32< Zippydaspinhead> I was disscussing the coordinate issue a bit last night with other students
20110408 15:48:18< Zippydaspinhead> I have yet to add it into the prop, but I think adding a few encoded bits to the begining of the image file to contain that info would be most efficent
20110408 15:48:44< boucman> how would you handle haloes that could be used by multiple units, with this "per unit" spritesheet scheme ?
20110408 15:49:29< boucman> Zippydaspinhead: hmm, i don't know if png can be used for that... and unlike using WML it means the user can't read it
20110408 15:49:45< Zippydaspinhead> Then when the game loads the spritesheet, it doesn't have to load a seperate config file, the configuration information is contained in the spritesheet
20110408 15:49:54< boucman> and it also means an artist can't resize an image without unpacking/repacking (which might or might not be a problem, but i'm pointing it out
20110408 15:50:14< boucman> and whatever your decision, you have to explain how you plan to do it in your proposal
20110408 15:50:43< boucman> Zippydaspinhead: loading a couple of extra wml file isn't really a problem for the game
20110408 15:50:53< Nephro> boucman, there is nothing for me left to do if nagbot says I am registered with google right? I mean, I registered there, but am scared maybe I lost some detail and will lose my chance
20110408 15:50:57< Nephro> nagbot2, nephro ?
20110408 15:51:04< Nephro> nagbot2 nephro ?
20110408 15:51:06< boucman> (and remember that i'm happy to discuss all that with tou, but you should also explain it in your proposal)
20110408 15:51:30< Nephro> well now nagbot says nothing
20110408 15:51:34< boucman> Nephro: as long as you are registered there, everything else can be done on the wiki
20110408 15:51:38< Zippydaspinhead> Oh yes I realize, I just wanted to bounce some ideas off you before I continue working on it
20110408 15:51:53< boucman> as I said a couple of time, if your google proposal is just a link to your wiki proposal, that's enough
20110408 15:52:02< boucman> Zippydaspinhead: ok, that's good
20110408 15:52:37< Zippydaspinhead> Mostly the reason I suggested using PNG's was that I have no experience with WML
20110408 15:52:57< Zippydaspinhead> but of course I am willing to learn
20110408 15:53:01< Nephro> boucman, it is still not late to improve the proposal page, right? I've been working on the code a lot, so had not much time to write something else that the questionnaire answers
20110408 15:53:10< boucman> Zippydaspinhead: browse some code (like the SUF code) you'll see that dealing with WML in c++ isn't complicated
20110408 15:53:26< Zippydaspinhead> It didn't wound like it was.  Thanks
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20110408 15:53:48< boucman> Nephro: it's ok, until we have our decision meeting, you're fine with working on the wiki, even after google has closed the registration
20110408 15:54:04< Nephro> boucman, and the meeting will take place on?
20110408 15:54:17< boucman> that's a good question :P
20110408 15:54:27< Nephro> I hope it's not tomorrow :))
20110408 15:54:56< boucman> i'd say you have at least a week... no promise, just experience from previous years, though...
20110408 15:55:36< Zippydaspinhead> ah, so the proposal doesn't have to be perfect by google's deadline?
20110408 15:55:48< boucman> no, and you can still submit patches tooo
20110408 15:56:30< MGoods|RangerM> boucman, are you familiar with the workings of the AI code for handling Lua scripts, I believe it's called the lua Engine?
20110408 15:57:07< boucman> and as pointed elsewhere, remember to point any and all contributions in your wiki page, including non-commited patch (you shouldn't be disadventaged because we are slow to react) and rejected patches (that's your call, of course, but if you did a bit of work for an unwanted feature, it sill reflects positively on your coding skills)
20110408 15:57:22< boucman> MGoods|RangerM: not really, sorry
20110408 15:57:42< MGoods|RangerM> ok, will have to wait for Crab_ to come online
20110408 15:57:45< MGoods|RangerM> thanks anyway
20110408 15:57:49< boucman> I started the AI rework in wesnoth, but the GSoC student that did most of the work is now a mentor :P
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20110408 16:01:01< Zippydaspinhead> boucman: where in the code base is the current animation code?
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20110408 16:04:23< boucman> Zippydaspinhead: you don't really care about the actual animation code... the part that interest you the most is image.?pp which is the image loading code it's called from unit_frame.cpp and is given an image path with path modificators (~CROP() and that sort of stuff)
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20110408 16:05:20< Zippydaspinhead> alright thanks I'll take a look
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20110408 16:37:58< Nephro> MGoods|RangerM, you are encouraged to ask questions anyway, I am hacking around AI code and might be able to answer
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20110408 16:42:05< MGoods|RangerM> Ok, the SoC idea page for AI says that the Lua Engine creates c++ proxies for code written in a different language. Does this mean it creates c++ code that does the things described in the different language, or that it creates dummy objects that other objects use to communicate with the code in the other language?
20110408 16:45:11< MGoods|RangerM> sorry, Lua Engine creates c++ proxies for code written in Lua, but the c++ objects used by the AI code can be proxies for code in other languages like Lua or formula_ai
20110408 16:48:39< MGoods|RangerM> I would assume dummy objects that interface between other c++ objects and code in another language, but I want to be sure
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20110408 16:49:17< boucman> what i understand
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20110408 16:49:41< boucman> the AI code is pluggable, and the plugins can be written in any language that can use the C api
20110408 16:50:04< boucman> for lua, you don't need to recode the C api interface since the LuaEngine code already does that for you
20110408 16:50:08< boucman> and that's the gist of it
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20110408 16:52:52< MGoods|RangerM> so almost certainly dummy objects, thanks, I would've dug in and checked myself, but I've got exams soon so I have to focus on revision, so research in prep for GSoC is limited to IRC questions for now
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20110408 17:09:51< Aethaeryn> damn, I woke up more tired than I went to sleep
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20110408 17:12:28< zaroth> Aethaeryn: protip: try to sleep multiplies of 1.5 hours (or whatever time your sleep cycle takes, 1.5h is the average)
20110408 17:13:50< Aethaeryn> yes, I know about http://sleepyti.me/
20110408 17:13:57< Aethaeryn> the Internet is a small place.
20110408 17:14:38< Aethaeryn> I must have been off by, like, 10 minutes and also I think I woke up briefly an hour or two ago just to look at the time and go back to sleep.
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20110408 17:21:38< fendrin> My debian just installed "libzeitgeist".
20110408 17:21:40< fendrin> lol
20110408 17:21:40< Aethaeryn> timotei: essentially I just have a copy of http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SoC2011_Student_Page_Aethaeryn#Questionnaire at the ZoC page for the content, is that good enough or do I need to copy more from the wiki?
20110408 17:23:32< Aethaeryn> timotei: also, you can ** for an entry under a bulleted * for your questionaire on the wiki
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20110408 17:27:54< Aethaeryn> Woah, I wrote ZoC
20110408 17:28:15< Aethaeryn> Yeah, I'm going to be thoroughly caffeinated before I go over the details part that has sample syntax, what i'm actually doing, etc.
20110408 17:28:32< Aethaeryn> I already have much of this on my hard drive on various parts, it's a matter of finding it
20110408 17:30:14< timotei> Aethaeryn: well, like boucman said already. A simple abstract, and a link to wiki is more than ok
20110408 17:30:31< timotei> oh. and your mobile phone in case you are ok. (I for one, didn't write it in the wiki, only in the proposal)
20110408 17:30:52< timotei> Aethaeryn: but didn't get the last sentece of yours
20110408 17:30:59< timotei> this: <Aethaeryn> timotei: also, you can ** for an entry under a bulleted * for your questionaire on the wiki
20110408 17:31:24< timotei> tes
20110408 17:31:51< MGoods|RangerM> When submitting my proposal to google, there's a box called Content which "contains your actual proposal", and currently has the wesnoth questionaire in it, should I just delete that and insert my answers, or insert my answer after each question? (does it matter)?
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20110408 17:42:04< Aethaeryn> timotei: In the part where you have * and then "   foobar" for the SVN, C++, Python, etc., tools part
20110408 17:42:16< Aethaeryn> You can do "* point" "** answer" instead like I did
20110408 17:42:40< Aethaeryn> timotei: And yeah, I put my Google Voice number. This should reach my cell phone most of the time and my laptop if I'm in a place with no signal
20110408 17:42:50< timotei> MGoods|RangerM: well, you can just link it to the wiki page for the proposal :)
20110408 17:42:53< Aethaeryn> Besides, it's part of being a suck up to Google ;-)
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20110408 17:43:55< timotei> "suck up to Google?" what does that mean? :P
20110408 17:43:56< timotei> oh, I got it
20110408 17:44:12< timotei> Aethaeryn: I haven't read your proposal/questionairre :P
20110408 17:44:16< Aethaeryn> Using my Google Voice number to forward to either my Google Nexus One or my Google Gmail
20110408 17:44:22< timotei> oh
20110408 17:44:28< timotei> fendrin: hi
20110408 17:44:39< fendrin> hi timotei
20110408 17:44:44< timotei> fendrin: I'd like to get some feedback on the proposal draft
20110408 17:44:48< timotei> fendrin: if you have time of course
20110408 17:44:55< MGoods|RangerM> Eh, submitted now, it's too late to turn back :P
20110408 17:44:57< timotei> fendrin: and then I'm gonna start finishing it today :)
20110408 17:45:18< fendrin> nagbot2: timotei?
20110408 17:45:24< timotei> fendrin: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SummerofCode2011_Timotei21
20110408 17:45:24< MGoods|RangerM> would like to have talked to Crab_ before sending it off, but...
20110408 17:45:36< timotei> MGoods|RangerM: well, you can modify the wiki anyways ;)
20110408 17:45:56< MGoods|RangerM> nagbot2: MarkGoodenough?
20110408 17:46:01< Aethaeryn> MGoods|RangerM: Yeah, I'm hoping Crab_ comes soon for the last two headings I need to fill out
20110408 17:46:04< MGoods|RangerM> nagbot2: MGoods?
20110408 17:47:05< fendrin> timotei: terrain/map file content assist?
20110408 17:47:29< timotei> fendrin: it was a blank idea that got through my head. need to research a bit on it :)
20110408 17:47:41< zaroth> I'm an idiot, trying to do things in window destructor... why didn't I come up with the simple idea that if there exists a pre_show() in GUI2, there has to be a post_show() as well?
20110408 17:47:42< timotei> fendrin: and see if it's feasable/ok
20110408 17:48:09< timotei> fendrin: if you have any suggestions before, I'd love to know them ;)
20110408 17:48:20< timotei> fendrin: (that is, regarding the terrain/map content assist)
20110408 17:48:39< fendrin> zaroth: You need to read more example code. Or just through the headers of the classes you use.
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20110408 17:49:09< fendrin> timotei: I can't think of any. That is why I asked.
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20110408 17:53:14< fendrin> timotei: Would you like to explain what it means? 
20110408 17:53:40< timotei> fendrin: regarding the terrain/map assist?
20110408 17:53:53< timotei> fendrin: well, completing the ... ^Wx or something like that rules
20110408 17:54:27< timotei> fendrin: that's why I said, it's still pending in my head. i need to formulate it :D
20110408 17:54:34< timotei> fendrin: something like: http://wesnoth.cybergamecity.com/dev/terrains
20110408 17:55:18< timotei> fendrin: well. sorry, I think it's a stupid idea. there is already th editor for it !
20110408 17:57:05< fendrin> timotei: It would be nice to have proper tab completion for terrains or when the umc plugin can tell what a terrain means.
20110408 17:57:09< fendrin> timotei: Example
20110408 17:57:30< fendrin> timotei: You are coding an event that changes terrain or filters for terrain. 
20110408 17:58:15< fendrin> terrain=Fp^Gg
20110408 17:58:23< fendrin> would be a valid value
20110408 17:58:54< fendrin> and the editor could give to what terrains it actualy matches, in case you write F*^G*
20110408 17:59:59< timotei> I see
20110408 18:00:31< fendrin> Also a little gui that shows all possible terrains and you can select some just by clicking on their symbols.
20110408 18:01:34< timotei> fendrin: like a popup?
20110408 18:01:48< timotei> or like the ... macro source showing?
20110408 18:02:05< timotei> ok
20110408 18:02:07< timotei> I'll note that
20110408 18:02:09< fendrin> I think a popup is better.
20110408 18:02:32< fendrin> But that is a implementation detail that does not need to be predefined.
20110408 18:03:10< fendrin> Currently the coding is a little awkward. The 3 applications problem.
20110408 18:03:42< fendrin> When coding a Wesnoth scenario I need the emacs editor or the eclipse plugin + Wesnoth the game + Wesnoth the editor
20110408 18:04:40< timotei> I see
20110408 18:04:47< fendrin> Coding terrain related stuff is a constant switch between the Wesnoth editor and the text editor. Every coding step requires a restart of Wesnoth to see if it works well.
20110408 18:05:22< fendrin> I aim to fix parts of that problems with my editor branch.
20110408 18:05:33< timotei> fendrin: so you would see live the game?
20110408 18:05:35< timotei> as you edit the map?
20110408 18:05:46< timotei> something like, editing on the fly?
20110408 18:05:53< fendrin> But the terrain thing can't be addressed in the map editor.
20110408 18:06:02< fendrin> Well, that would be very very nice.
20110408 18:06:13< fendrin> But I can't see a good way to make it work.
20110408 18:06:25< fendrin> What does not mean that there is not an easy and good solution.
20110408 18:06:39< timotei> fendrin: well, I was thinking, maybe I could add way that the game would reload current scenario
20110408 18:06:43< timotei> when the file changes
20110408 18:06:47< timotei> (it's timestamp_
20110408 18:07:11< timotei> fendrin: does wesnoth have a way to reload it's current scenario from within the game?
20110408 18:09:25< fendrin> No, but Wesnoth does support reloading the WML tree by pressing F5 during the main screen. That is slightly faster than a complete restart.
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20110408 18:16:43< timotei> fendrin: would you find nice a feature like that?
20110408 18:17:02< timotei> fendrin: since currently there are about 2 free weeks in my schedule, I could add that:-?
20110408 18:17:11< fendrin> timotei: Explain more how you would like to do it.
20110408 18:17:16< fendrin> please
20110408 18:17:45< timotei> fendrin: well, now I talk just about untested ideas. if it sounds good enough, I'd try and see how I would accomplish that :)
20110408 18:17:53< timotei> :P
20110408 18:18:23< fendrin> Wait, let's try to talk a little more about it.
20110408 18:18:54< fendrin> You suggest that the eclipse umc plugin opens a scenario in the editor and displays changes to the file on the fly?
20110408 18:19:20< timotei> fendrin: the other way. let's say, you open in the plugin a file, and modify it.
20110408 18:19:55< timotei> when you save / press a button in the plugin (to ... prevent reload spamming), wesnoth reloads that specific file (if it's opened currently in the game)
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20110408 18:20:03< timotei> the file would be a scenario for example
20110408 18:20:31< timotei> so, it won't need to reload the game+ loading screen
20110408 18:20:32< timotei> :-?
20110408 18:20:40< timotei> that's a hypotetic idea
20110408 18:21:12< fendrin> I think that is nearly impossible to achieve with our current infrastructure.
20110408 18:22:20< fendrin> A scenario start needs to preprocess the file.
20110408 18:22:41< fendrin> I can't imagine how you can switch the underlying scenario code during a running scenario.
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20110408 18:23:13< Aethaeryn> Lua magic.
20110408 18:23:23< timotei> fendrin: well, just like you go on next scenario?
20110408 18:23:28< timotei> unload it, and load the same
20110408 18:23:43< timotei> Aethaeryn: we are talking C++ code here, not that lua :P
20110408 18:24:31< Aethaeryn> No, I'm saying, wouldn't it be possible to hack together something in Lua that "switches the underlying scenario code during a running scenario"?
20110408 18:24:59< Aethaeryn> Though I'm not sure it could do the entire scenario code.
20110408 18:25:04< Aethaeryn> So that won't work.
20110408 18:25:21< fendrin> You can already start a scenario directly from the command line.
20110408 18:25:46< fendrin> I think that is the fastest way to do a reload.
20110408 18:25:51< Aethaeryn> Who is the admin for the wiki?
20110408 18:26:02< zaroth> fendrin: can I also create a MP game on a server that way?
20110408 18:26:13< Aethaeryn> I'd really like to request a sytnax highlighting plugin.
20110408 18:26:25< zaroth> that'd really help me with testing ;-)
20110408 18:26:37< fendrin> zaroth: Not right now. But YogiHH started to work on a feature that would support that.
20110408 18:26:52< zaroth> fendrin: not in experimental branch, I hope?
20110408 18:26:55< Aethaeryn> It makes the Lua way more readable to have it syntax highlighted and whatever plugin could probably have an existing XML highlight that could be hacked to support WML
20110408 18:26:56< fendrin> zaroth: Best you contact him when he is online again.
20110408 18:27:08< zaroth> wesbot: seen yogihh
20110408 18:27:09< wesbot> zaroth: The person with the nick YogiHH last spoke 44d 19h ago.  17h 7m ago they left with the message: Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86.1 [Firefox 3.6.16/20110319135224]
20110408 18:27:12< fendrin> zaroth: Yes, it is in the experimental branch but he wanted to port it to trunk.
20110408 18:27:50< zaroth> fendrin: I got the feeling that since of lack of maintenance the experimental branch got quite outdated and porting anything could be a pain...
20110408 18:27:59< zaroth> but if he did it, it'd be awesome!
20110408 18:28:48< Aethaeryn> zaroth: what are you working on again?
20110408 18:29:25< zaroth> Aethaeryn: trying to add a GUI to ":control" command, if you mean right now
20110408 18:29:32< fendrin> zaroth: right
20110408 18:29:42< fendrin> zaroth: It's still based on 1.8.
20110408 18:29:53< zaroth> thought I could get it done in ~3 days, but I met "several" difficulties on the way ;-)
20110408 18:30:20< zaroth> s/days/evenings/
20110408 18:31:07< Aethaeryn> zaroth: oh that thing that's incredibly simple to use but extremely difficult to explain to someone who has never used it (or never hosted) before over MP chat for some reason? :-P
20110408 18:31:28< zaroth> Aethaeryn: genau :D
20110408 18:31:34< zaroth> s/genau/exactly/
20110408 18:32:31< epyon> fendrin, in Lua you can dump a running coroutine *during* execution into a file with it's environment, send it over the net and finish execution on another machine... so reloading a scenario at runtime isn't something that should be hard ;)
20110408 18:35:43< Aethaeryn> epyon: That's why I brought up Lua, I read your proposal :-P
20110408 18:35:56< fendrin> epyon: What about the gamestate the unit_map, time of day manager and so on.
20110408 18:36:13< automagic> boucman: Hi. Have you seen the updates I've made to my proposal? http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SoC2011_Automagic#Implementation_details
20110408 18:37:37< fendrin> epyon: If you reload them from the scenario it is like a restart, so you can do a restart in the beginning. If you don't reload them your scenario won't get updated properly.
20110408 18:37:59< boucman> automagic: looking now
20110408 18:38:16< epyon> fendrin, was talking only "can lua handle" it
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20110408 18:38:29< epyon> Of course the C++ side is full of problems
20110408 18:41:45< boucman> automagic: I like the functor idea, it's something you've thought yourself, not something from the original proposal
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20110408 18:42:01< boucman> moreover it's a good way to do it...
20110408 18:42:25< automagic> boucman: I'm glad you like it.
20110408 18:42:29< boucman> small question, suppose I have  a crop functor that can read ~CROP(x,y,w,h)
20110408 18:43:25< automagic> and?
20110408 18:43:44< boucman> how would you find the right functor to use when using the string ? would there be a sort of "functor factory" that would take a string and return a list of functors , or would that be the composit_modification class you've hinted but didn't describe...
20110408 18:44:05< fendrin> Think of a Wesnoth scenario like a running program. Imagine you run a program but change the source code and recompile or refill the interpreter. You will not be able to continue the current execution with the changed binary code.
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20110408 18:45:20< automagic> My idea was to have the modification::decode static method read the names and then delegate reading the arguments to the appropriate constructor.
20110408 18:46:11< boucman> automagic: small advice wrt 3.1.4.2 : I think it's better to first look if the file exist and if not look into the spritesheet... it will make things much simpler for artists since the can have a couple of frames lying around in the directory, edit, save, without having to deal with the spritesheet at all if they don't want to
20110408 18:46:29< boucman> ok, sounds good, but you should describe that
20110408 18:46:37< boucman> and also the composit thingy
20110408 18:48:00< fendrin> timotei: Are you still with us?
20110408 18:48:35< timotei> fendrin: yes. I was a bit afk :)
20110408 18:48:45< timotei> fendrin: I've read your sayings
20110408 18:49:04< fendrin> I could imagine a feature that does add/modify/remove events from a running scenario.
20110408 18:49:09< fendrin> That should be possible.
20110408 18:49:18< fendrin> And help testing the code.
20110408 18:49:30< automagic> The way the image would be loaded would only chage if it is within a spritesheet (the if conditional that would be added to parse_arguments). The image would be loaded form a spritesheet only if it is within a spritesheet.
20110408 18:49:58< automagic> Otherwise it would be loaded the same way it is loaded now.
20110408 18:50:21< boucman> another thing, with your WML syntax it's easy to have holes within spritesheets... you should use that to generate spritesheets with a one pixel colored border (pink since that's the usual special color wor wesnoth) it would make things easier for artist working directly on the spritesheet
20110408 18:52:25< automagic> boucman: Ok. I didn't think about that.
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20110408 18:53:09< timotei> fendrin: ok. I have to go now. We can discuss later
20110408 18:53:10< timotei> :D
20110408 18:53:13< timotei> thanks for your time
20110408 18:53:15< fendrin> timotei: bye
20110408 18:53:18< mordante> servus
20110408 18:53:21< fendrin> hi mordante
20110408 18:53:30< mordante> hi fendrin 
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20110408 18:54:53< boucman> automagic: overall this proposal is good, you're at the right technical depth...
20110408 18:56:05< boucman> now there seems to be lots of things you thought of but hasn't written, and to us it looks like holes in the proposal. for instance lots of things seems to be based on the underlying workflow from my email, but you don't explicit that, and in particular how spritsheet using artists, non spritsheet using artists, and release managers would work with spritesheets
20110408 18:58:43< automagic> I could make a section about how it would be used.
20110408 19:00:07< boucman> yes that would be nice
20110408 19:00:14< boucman> did you submit some patches yet ?
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20110408 19:01:10< automagic> boucman: No. I was to find something connected to image management.
20110408 19:01:22< automagic> s/was to/was hopint to/
20110408 19:01:29< automagic> hoping*
20110408 19:02:28< boucman> http://wiki.wesnoth.org/EasyCoding#Add_a_cycle_parameter_to_the_unit_animation_WML <= borderline image related....
20110408 19:02:56< boucman> automagic: if you don't find anything image related it's better to have something unrelated than no patch at all, we really need to see what you can do
20110408 19:03:22< automagic> boucman: Ok. When is the patch submitting deadline?
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20110408 19:04:42< boucman> whenever we manage to get all the mentors together to discuss :P
20110408 19:05:24< automagic> boucman: I'll try to submit some patches by that time then.
20110408 19:05:42< boucman> good
20110408 19:22:12< Aethaeryn> wesbot: seen Crab_
20110408 19:22:12< wesbot> Aethaeryn: The person with the nick Crab_ last spoke 18h 47m ago.  18h 40m ago they left with the message: Quit: Leaving.
20110408 19:22:27< Aethaeryn> ok, I don't think Crab_ will be back in two hours then
20110408 19:22:38< Aethaeryn> Anyone else able to see a private proposal?
20110408 19:22:51< Aethaeryn> essentially I just copied my questionnaire and linked to the wiki and stuff
20110408 19:23:00< Aethaeryn> I want to make sure I didn't leave any details out on that part.
20110408 19:23:45< Aethaeryn> I'm working on developing the syntax and explaining the details of the actual proposal part on the wiki, but I have to have the submission itself in before 7 pm UTC
20110408 19:24:41< boucman> Aethaeryn: as far as we are concerned a one line submission with the url of your wiki page is fine
20110408 19:24:51< Aethaeryn> oh
20110408 19:25:08< Aethaeryn> well, I'll leave the questionnaire in because I spent 15 minutes converting it from wiki markup to their format.
20110408 19:25:11< Aethaeryn> :-P
20110408 19:25:28< Aethaeryn> is this visible for mentors? http://www.google-melange.com/gsoc/proposal/review/google/gsoc2011/aethaeryn/1
20110408 19:25:28< boucman> hehe
20110408 19:25:36 * boucman clicks
20110408 19:25:40< boucman> yes, it is
20110408 19:25:43< Aethaeryn> ok, good
20110408 19:26:07< Aethaeryn> the last thing I want is to miss out on GSOC simply because there was an extra submit and that's just a save or something
20110408 19:26:21< Aethaeryn> I've saved-instead-of-submitted stuff on unfamiliar websites before :-P
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20110408 19:27:56< Aethaeryn> Okay. This weekend is now divided into 2 parts: (0) finishing the design and getting feedback from Crab_ and (1) patches, patches, patches.
20110408 19:29:40< zaroth> Aethaeryn: darn you, now I'm tempted to give link to my proposal and ask if it's visible... you may have started an avalanche ;-)
20110408 19:30:15< Aethaeryn> zaroth: Well, I *need* to run my final proposal through Crab_ before starting on the patches because I did a "submit your own" based on feedback from Crab_.
20110408 19:30:35< Aethaeryn> Essentially, I don't want to play a game of telephone and wind up proposing something no one wants merely because I misunderstood Crab_'s suggestions a few weeks ago.
20110408 19:31:19< Aethaeryn> He's also probably going to give me more tasks for Phase 1.
20110408 19:33:24< Aethaeryn> oh, visible
20110408 19:33:36< Aethaeryn> I read viable
20110408 19:34:14< Aethaeryn> I am useless when I don't get enough sleep
20110408 19:34:40< fendrin> Aethaeryn: Can you point me to your proposal page on our wiki? Nagbot is out of work.
20110408 19:34:49< fendrin> please
20110408 19:35:28< Aethaeryn> User:Aethaeryn has a link at the top
20110408 19:35:49< Aethaeryn> Im on my phone sshing in so it's hard to link
20110408 19:36:07< fendrin> Aethaeryn: Got it :-9
20110408 19:36:10< fendrin> :-)
20110408 19:37:18< Aethaeryn> note the depth part is lacking a bit atm because I need to get back to my computer and write more on it
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20110408 19:55:07< Aethaeryn> ugh, the mediawiki version is ancient so I can't use cool new features in my proposal page
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20110408 20:01:58< Zippydaspinhead> Uh so question.  I have submitted my prop to google
20110408 20:02:12< Zippydaspinhead> But i am still listed under people who haven't submitted yet
20110408 20:02:42< zaroth> Zippydaspinhead: too late now!
20110408 20:02:51< Zippydaspinhead> I did it several hours ago
20110408 20:02:52< zaroth> Zippydaspinhead: no, seriously that is dependant on putting a link on the wiki
20110408 20:03:00< zaroth> to the proposal
20110408 20:03:11< Zippydaspinhead> uh?
20110408 20:03:13< zaroth> and propably isn't really important, just a reminder ;-)
20110408 20:03:16< Ivanovic> in fact there is still some time left for submission, about 55min IIRC
20110408 20:03:16< Zippydaspinhead> ok
20110408 20:03:23< Zippydaspinhead> ok
20110408 20:03:28< zaroth> Ivanovic: wasn't that 19:00 UTC?
20110408 20:03:35< Ivanovic> yes, 19UTC
20110408 20:03:36< zaroth> ah, summer time
20110408 20:03:41< zaroth> forgot it completely
20110408 20:03:43< Ivanovic> atm it is 18 UTC
20110408 20:03:51< Zippydaspinhead> ok
20110408 20:03:56< Zippydaspinhead> ill link it real quick then
20110408 20:03:58< zaroth> yeah, yeah, I was just so much used to being in UTC+1
20110408 20:04:13< mordante> :-)
20110408 20:05:12< Zippydaspinhead> ok done
20110408 20:05:15< Zippydaspinhead> in class so i have to go
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20110408 20:07:05< Aethaeryn> ok, because the deadline is approaching
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20110408 20:07:19< Aethaeryn> can some mentor again please just check to make sure I have everything in that needs to be in by the deadline on the GSOC website?
20110408 20:07:28< Aethaeryn> Just a confirmation that it's there and stuff
20110408 20:07:35< Aethaeryn> http://www.google-melange.com/gsoc/proposal/review/google/gsoc2011/aethaeryn/1
20110408 20:08:50< Aethaeryn> and what do I add to the wikipage to show that I've submitted it to Google?
20110408 20:09:51< fendrin> Ivanovic: A c++ file that does not include gettext does not need a text domain as well, right?
20110408 20:10:18< Ivanovic> ah, problematic case, really
20110408 20:10:35< Ivanovic> better define the textdomain just to be save since gettext can easily be included via headers
20110408 20:10:56< Ivanovic> and i am *not* sure that it is only included in cpp files, not also in hpps
20110408 20:11:04< fendrin> Ivanovic: Okay, no problem.
20110408 20:11:29< Ivanovic> and in theory the textdomain declaration is only required if the domain is *not* wesnoth
20110408 20:11:53< Ivanovic> (having it in is to make it obvious)
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20110408 20:12:52< mordante> Aethaeryn, I see your proposal in melange
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20110408 20:13:42< mordante> Aethaeryn, also saw you improved your proposal, makes your proposal really clearer
20110408 20:15:39< Aethaeryn> mordante: Yes, I'm going to go into a lot more depth, two sections I was too tired to finish last night
20110408 20:16:12< Aethaeryn> And I'm emphasizing that almost all the functionality is already there, just not easily accessible through Lua, and I will reuse as much code as possible.
20110408 20:16:45< mordante> Aethaeryn, I saw that, but from what you've written now I can see where you want to go, with what I read yesterday I got a completely different (and wrong) impression
20110408 20:16:48< Aethaeryn> This is mostly about providing a way for Lua content makers to access various interface code in native Lua instead of WML tables or not at all (depending on the thing)
20110408 20:17:25< tschmitz> Anyone want to look at my proposal? Gabba's been the only one who's been looking at it that I've been aware of
20110408 20:17:28< tschmitz> http://www.google-melange.com/gsoc/proposal/review/google/gsoc2011/tschmitz/1 and http://wiki.wesnoth.org/User:Tschmitz
20110408 20:18:14< boucman> looking
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20110408 20:20:27< Aethaeryn> Phase 0 and Phase 1 (more to be added when I can consult crab_) might seem somewhat unrelated, but Phase 2 is intended to unify them.
20110408 20:20:55< tschmitz> Aethaeryn: You should put that sentence in your proposal
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20110408 20:21:53< Aethaeryn> which one?
20110408 20:22:13< Aethaeryn> The unify part?
20110408 20:22:16< tschmitz> Yeah
20110408 20:23:47< boucman> tschmitz: 5.4.2 you say that players share a WB within a team... do you mean that visually or internally ?
20110408 20:24:17< boucman> because internally, I think it would be safer and simpler that all players share a single WB, in particular for observers seeing all players it would be simpler
20110408 20:24:44< tschmitz> I was referring to visually,
20110408 20:24:50< boucman> ok, make sense
20110408 20:24:50< tschmitz> I hadn't considered observers, hm
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20110408 20:25:19< boucman> note that currently obs have the vision of the active player, so they can keep that behavior and only see the active team
20110408 20:25:32< boucman> and you probably should clarify that sentence, then :)
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20110408 20:27:28< mordante> tschmitz, will look tomorrow, I want to go over all proposals tomorrow
20110408 20:28:14< Aethaeryn> tschmitz: ok, good idea. I rewrote the overview part on Phase 2
20110408 20:28:32< Aethaeryn> Now I just need to do Phase 1 Overview, the details of Phases 0-2, and the "Goals" section.
20110408 20:28:35< boucman> tschmitz: when I look at 5.5+5.6 together, it seems that for each player, there is a local WB and a remote WB, the local one being the one  you put on the unit (suggestion for allies, what if for ennemies, moves for you) and the remote one sent by other player.
20110408 20:28:56< boucman> unrelated question : how would you handle contradictory suggestions by different allies
20110408 20:29:47< boucman> back to my previous point : these two plus other points seems to mean that there will be all sort of suggested moves for units, local and distant planning for own/allied/ennemy units
20110408 20:29:50< tschmitz> boucman: Since there are separate suggestion queues for each player from each other player, they will be placed into separate action queues
20110408 20:30:14< boucman> it would be nice if you added a synthesis of how you plan to handle all these moves, since right now there is only a single queue for your own units
20110408 20:30:16< tschmitz> and the arrows will be displayed with different colors (still figuring out colors)
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20110408 20:30:46< boucman> don't worry too much about arrow colors, iirc the code is in play to teamcolor them
20110408 20:32:32< tschmitz> Yeah, regarding the colors, suggestions from player 2 to player 1 should probably look different from suggestions from player 3 to player 1
20110408 20:32:40< boucman> tschmitz: overall I like your proposal, I think you should clarify all the different queues, probably in a separate place than the feature list, explaning how you plan to implement it
20110408 20:32:42< tschmitz> anyway, regarding synthesis,
20110408 20:32:49< tschmitz> OK
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20110408 20:32:59< tschmitz> I'll start by explaining it here in IRC?
20110408 20:33:23< tschmitz> I believe there is currently a separate action_queue for each side
20110408 20:33:28< tschmitz> That will stay
20110408 20:33:33< boucman> tschmitz: I don't know if gabba mentionned that, but "supposed dead" is probably quite easy to code, and would be a nice patch on your trophee list before the end of the evaluation period :P
20110408 20:33:54< tschmitz> Yeah it's in the "Soon" section of my timeline
20110408 20:34:06< boucman> tschmitz: I'm not sure there is, since we currently have only one side that needs planning, the local side
20110408 20:34:16< boucman> (maybe a bit more for hotseat, not sure
20110408 20:34:36< boucman> I'm not sure wb+hotseat was ever tested... hmmm
20110408 20:34:50< tschmitz> Hm, I used droid to play for the enemy player
20110408 20:34:59< tschmitz> and made plans for both sides
20110408 20:35:13< tschmitz> Yeah maybe you're right, it might be all lumped in the same queue?
20110408 20:35:41< tschmitz> Yeah I think you may be right; perhaps it's team colored according to the unit making the move
20110408 20:36:10< tschmitz> OK in that case I'm explicitly splitting it into multiple queues, one for each side
20110408 20:36:22< tschmitz> additionally ...
20110408 20:36:57< tschmitz> If you and I are allies, then there will exist a queue containing my suggestions for you, and another queue containing your suggestions for me
20110408 20:37:13-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20110408 20:37:14< tschmitz> which will be separate from the main queues
20110408 20:37:16< nagbot2> Time for a small public service announcement
20110408 20:37:18< nagbot2> To all gsoc students:
20110408 20:37:21< nagbot2> Register your proposal with Google
20110408 20:37:23< nagbot2> http://www.google-melange.com/gsoc/profile/student/google/gsoc2011?org=wesnoth
20110408 20:37:23< tschmitz> Hi nagbot ...
20110408 20:37:25< nagbot2> You need to do this until Apr 8th, 19:00 UTC (12:00 PST)
20110408 20:37:27< nagbot2> Everyone not enlisted in the google tracker at that time will have *no* chance to participate with Wesnoth as part of Summer of Code 2011, no matter how good your proposal in the wiki is or *whatever*
20110408 20:37:29< nagbot2> We can select ONLY people listed there!
20110408 20:37:31< nagbot2> Please submit patches and prototypes so we can see your ideas in action. 
20110408 20:37:33< nagbot2> Talk about your ideas on the IRC
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20110408 20:39:35< tschmitz> My (and gabba's) original idea for implementing multi-turn moves involved even more queues
20110408 20:39:41< tschmitz> one for each future turn
20110408 20:40:05< tschmitz> but I had a new idea since then which is also listed in my proposal in that section
20110408 20:40:17< boucman> I personally don't think that multi-turn planning is that usefull... but the feature is here, so...
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20110408 20:40:47< tschmitz> Gotos
20110408 20:40:51< tschmitz> heh
20110408 20:40:59< zaroth> boucman: remember about what I tould you about moving thousands of units in campaigns, that feature has to stay :P
20110408 20:41:14< tschmitz> Thousand-unit campaigns?
20110408 20:41:16< boucman> I know :P
20110408 20:41:29< boucman> yeah, some people do crazy stuff
20110408 20:41:30< fendrin> zaroth: What?
20110408 20:41:46< tschmitz> OK, that's pretty cool
20110408 20:42:09< zaroth> fendrin: especially in cave scenarios, I hate moving my whole armies move-by-move
20110408 20:42:32< tschmitz> boucman: So should I add a section to the introduction as a kind of "overall map of the implementation"?
20110408 20:42:36< zaroth> since they're mostly just moves that doesn't require any thought, just moving forward
20110408 20:42:59< zaroth> but luckily wesnoth has goto function, which is in essence multi-turn planning, which boucman was bashing ;-)
20110408 20:42:59< fendrin> zaroth: So you would like to select several units and a single target point?
20110408 20:43:28< tschmitz> Heh
20110408 20:43:51< zaroth> fendrin: that would be also neat, but I just don't want that due to some "unification" task and "multi-turn planning isn't important" my favourite goto disappears
20110408 20:43:53< fendrin> zaroth: Wasn't boucman the mentor of the whiteboard feature?
20110408 20:44:34< tschmitz> It seems gabba has taken that over
20110408 20:44:44< fendrin> Yeah.
20110408 20:44:51< fendrin> I talked about the past.
20110408 20:45:05< tschmitz> I think he was?
20110408 20:45:16< fendrin> If I understood correctly multi-turn planning is one of the basic features of the white board.
20110408 20:45:43< boucman> tschmitz: introduction might not be the best place, it would be more readable if you put it after the enumeration of all the features, but yes, you should add that section
20110408 20:45:47< tschmitz> Ehh ... *mumble mumble*
20110408 20:45:56< boucman> fendrin: no, it isn't, it doesn't work at this point
20110408 20:46:14< tschmitz> Yeah, currently it's for current turn planning
20110408 20:46:19< fendrin> Hmmm, I need to investigate the white board thing further.
20110408 20:46:23< tschmitz> and out-of-turn planning
20110408 20:46:36< boucman> out of turn (i.e planning your next turn during your oponent's turn) does work IIRC, but not multiple turn in advance, which is what zaroth wants
20110408 20:46:48< tschmitz> Right
20110408 20:46:57< tschmitz> well he'll get it
20110408 20:47:06< tschmitz> but not selecting multiple units at a time ...
20110408 20:47:09< boucman> however, we never planned to move multiple units simultaneously, that doesn't really make sense in a TBS
20110408 20:47:35< tschmitz> Yeah, aside from those crazy people's content that you mentioned
20110408 20:47:44 * zaroth remembers "army units" from Civ3
20110408 20:48:42< zaroth> but yeah, since the situation on the wesnoth front changes so quickly, I also consider multi-turn in advance battle planning unimportant... I just want the goto to stay :-)
20110408 20:49:25< fendrin> zaroth: I don't think that goto will get removed.
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20110408 20:52:31 * zaroth cheers for that decision
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20110408 20:55:30< Aethaeryn> 11 GOTO 34
20110408 20:55:34< Aethaeryn> Oh, not that kind of GOTO
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20110408 20:59:25< tschmitz> I don't suppose it's possible to write TeX in the wiki?
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20110408 20:59:58< Aethaeryn> tschmitz: It should be
20110408 20:59:59-!- harbin [harbin@dsl-jklbrasgw2-fea0f800-138.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110408 21:00:16< tschmitz> Aethaeryn: Is it?
20110408 21:00:26< Aethaeryn> tschmitz: http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Enable_TeX
20110408 21:00:34< Aethaeryn> odds are they didn't configure it, but MediaWiki definitely can handle it
20110408 21:01:15< Aethaeryn> someone who knows MediaWiki needs to update it to the latest version, improve the anti-spam capabilities, and enable certain things like TeX
20110408 21:02:03-!- Zippydaspinhead [c6b7e38c@gateway/web/freenode/ip.198.183.227.140] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110408 21:02:09< Zippydaspinhead> Err...
20110408 21:02:09< Aethaeryn> I could not get collapsible tables to work so perhaps we just have a version of MediaWiki that's too old
20110408 21:02:16< Zippydaspinhead> I have registered with google...
20110408 21:02:20< epyon> Aethaeryn, made it? :D
20110408 21:02:29< Zippydaspinhead> but im still listed not on the wesnoth wiki
20110408 21:03:04< boucman> the wesnoth wiki is not generated from the google submissions but from wiki pages manually created
20110408 21:03:04< Aethaeryn> Zippydaspinhead: you have to make a new heading
20110408 21:03:07< Aethaeryn> see how I did it on my page
20110408 21:03:22< Aethaeryn> epyon: assuming it's viewable by them yes
20110408 21:03:57< Zippydaspinhead> ok
20110408 21:03:58< Zippydaspinhead> uh
20110408 21:03:59< Aethaeryn> I did the questionnaire last night
20110408 21:04:04< Aethaeryn> so I could submit it
20110408 21:04:25< Zippydaspinhead> oops
20110408 21:04:36< Zippydaspinhead> in a hurry i added a B on the end of my link :P
20110408 21:05:09< Zippydaspinhead> Well, I just about had a heart attack there...
20110408 21:05:15< Aethaeryn> Well, the deadline has passed now...
20110408 21:05:21< Aethaeryn> It's now simply a matter of bribes... Unfortunately, being an open source project, you can only bribe them with code patches.
20110408 21:05:38< tschmitz> Zippydaspinhead: lol I can understand why
20110408 21:05:47< Zippydaspinhead> one sec
20110408 21:05:56< Zippydaspinhead> got the correct link but still listed under not
20110408 21:06:27< tschmitz> Aethaeryn: Uh, you could probably find other ways to bribe, but I think you'd be shooting yourself in the foot if you tried
20110408 21:06:36< tschmitz> Aethaeryn: (too literal?)
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20110408 21:08:11< Zippydaspinhead> Whew....
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20110408 21:13:24< [Relic]> Hello :)
20110408 21:13:53< Aethaeryn> So how many students can they accept?
20110408 21:17:22< fendrin> Aethaeryn: We have 5 Mentors but we can not be sure to get 5 slots from google.
20110408 21:18:46< Zippydaspinhead> How many slots do they offer?  I understand there are 175 organizations?
20110408 21:19:07< fendrin> At all?
20110408 21:19:12< fendrin> I have no idea.
20110408 21:19:30< Aethaeryn> 15:07:29 <+socinfo> SRabbelier: "numapps" is 417 mentoring orgs applied and 175 were accepted this year. In 2010, 367 mentoring orgs applied and 151 were accepted; 5539 proposals  were submitted by 3464 students, and 1026 were accepted
20110408 21:19:41< Aethaeryn> Your odds should be slightly worse than 1 in 3
20110408 21:20:00< Aethaeryn> Assuming similar numbers to last year, and assuming overall across-all-projects
20110408 21:20:08< Aethaeryn> Wesnoth's a game, so perhaps your odds are only 1 in 4 or 1 in 5 :-P
20110408 21:20:17< Zippydaspinhead> This is true
20110408 21:20:19< fendrin> To get all the 5 slots?
20110408 21:20:39< Zippydaspinhead> well in the mean time I will improve my prop and try to get some patches
20110408 21:21:04< fendrin> I guess the limit of accepted students was set by the number of mentors available, not be the limit of google's cash.
20110408 21:21:12< Aethaeryn> We assume 25 applicants, 10 of whom didn't submit to Google according to the wiki, which could be wrong, and maybe one or two didn't do a really good application at all.
20110408 21:21:13< fendrin> s/be/by
20110408 21:21:22< Aethaeryn> So, that would be 4-5 openings, and yes, about 1 in 3
20110408 21:21:34< Aethaeryn> It seems to extend to this.
20110408 21:23:48< Aethaeryn> Last year, there were 33 student pages, 11 didn't submit, so there were 22 openings...
20110408 21:23:58< Aethaeryn> *22 applicants for 5ish openings
20110408 21:24:41< Aethaeryn> Applications to Wesnoth are apparently down this year, so one can assume that one's odds are better.
20110408 21:24:57< Aethaeryn> Though, of course, it's not like they just draw at random
20110408 21:26:09< Zippydaspinhead> in any case I have yet more class today
20110408 21:26:21< Zippydaspinhead> Farewell for now
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20110408 21:32:09< tschmitz> in other words, draw at random.
20110408 21:32:09< tschmitz> Heh, perhaps they pit us against each other in a game of Wesnoth
20110408 21:38:54< mordante> I'm off night
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20110408 21:48:20< zaroth> mordante: when you do when you do --log-debug:foo/* , it will also log from domain foo/bar/baz, just tested
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20110408 22:25:16< zaroth> Crab___: which one of you is the real one ? ;-)
20110408 22:26:06< timotei> both :)
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20110408 22:30:16< Upthorn> or neither
20110408 22:31:37< Crab____> both are. but I'm just for a second.
20110408 22:31:54-!- mode/#wesnoth-dev [+o Ivanovic] by ChanServ
20110408 22:32:01-!- mode/#wesnoth-dev [+b nagbot2!*@*] by Ivanovic
20110408 22:32:01-!- nagbot2 was kicked from #wesnoth-dev by Ivanovic [killall users!]
20110408 22:32:10<@Ivanovic> Crab____: as requested by you
20110408 22:32:20<@Ivanovic> tell me when to remove the ban and i'll do so
20110408 22:32:38-!- mode/#wesnoth-dev [-o Ivanovic] by Ivanovic
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20110408 22:32:59< Crab____> Ivanovic: thanks
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20110408 22:36:18< timotei> Ivanovic: nagbot2 was an intruder? :O
20110408 22:36:46< Ivanovic> timotei: no, but crab has no way to turn it off atm
20110408 22:36:56< Ivanovic> (turn off the "submit your proposal" reminders)
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20110408 22:37:18< timotei> oh. ok :)
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20110408 22:46:56< Qbunia> Nephro: do u know anything about WML in AI? 
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20110408 22:47:16< Nephro> well, only from examples
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20110408 22:47:28< Nephro> main tags like [stage] [aspect] etc
20110408 22:47:41< Qbunia> Nephro: ai for first campaign shows that ai uses only wml like: Attack deepth  and focus target i cant find any c++ for those actions
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20110408 22:50:00< Nephro> Well, attack depth is an aspect, focus target is a goal(iirc), all that is just the configuration of the ai, it is used in calculations for the main loop of evalution of moves
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20110408 22:50:45< zaroth> how do I team color a text in label?
20110408 22:51:23< zaroth> can I do somehow this ~RC( stuff or do I have to manually get color string and use <span style="color:#foo">?
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20110408 22:54:38< zaroth> zookeeper: Aethaeryn: maybe you are knowledgable with this? :-)
20110408 22:54:59< Nephro> Qbunia, the very best way to learn about all that imho is to step through the code... That's how I understood the aspect system
20110408 22:55:38< Qbunia> Nephro: hmm 
20110408 22:55:52< Qbunia> Nephro: have u seen 01_The_Elves_Besieged.cfg this file the ai ?
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20110408 22:56:23< Qbunia> if not then look onto ai and if u understand it tell me where are he fucntions
20110408 22:57:32< Qbunia> where are funcitons for ai
20110408 22:57:36< Aethaeryn> zaroth: I don't think you can color labels
20110408 22:57:40< Aethaeryn> I could be mistaken.
20110408 22:58:02< Aethaeryn> You might have been able to with the older system, but not with the <> kind of stuff
20110408 22:58:14< zaroth> Aethaeryn: you surely can, try this <span style="color:red">foo</span>
20110408 22:58:29< zaroth> you just have to enable use_markup=true in the [label]
20110408 22:58:39< Aethaeryn> zaroth: oh, WML only?
20110408 22:59:40< zaroth> Aethaeryn: I don't know. I'm currently doing GUI2 WML stuff ;-)
20110408 22:59:44< Aethaeryn> zaroth: I think you used to be able to do that even in-game with Labels
20110408 22:59:55< zaroth> but it for sure works with leader names
20110408 22:59:57< Aethaeryn> before they switched to the <span> and <b> stuff
20110408 23:00:11< zaroth> try coloring your units' names, it's fun! :D
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20110408 23:01:37< Nephro> Qbunia, I haven't yet, but you should know that there is a standard AI config file, and all the wml tags in the scenario config only override the default ones, the rest are taken from the default
20110408 23:01:50< Nephro> I'll take a look there in a sec
20110408 23:02:13< Aethaeryn> zaroth: Yeah, I knew about that back when it was arcane and not like HTML :-P
20110408 23:02:49< zaroth> Aethaeryn: oh, did they disable it in 1.9.x?
20110408 23:03:11< Aethaeryn> idk
20110408 23:03:15< Aethaeryn> I get "invalid markup" error
20110408 23:03:17< zaroth> "This text contains invalid markup" :(
20110408 23:03:18< Aethaeryn> when trying to rename
20110408 23:03:20< Aethaeryn> ah
20110408 23:03:33< Aethaeryn> so I was using valid css
20110408 23:04:51< Qbunia> Nephro: i mean where are default ones ?
20110408 23:05:13< Nephro> Qbunia, http://svn.gna.org/viewcvs/wesnoth/trunk/data/ai/utils/default_config.cfg?revision=40379&view=markup
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20110408 23:08:12< Qbunia> Nephro: i see thx
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20110408 23:18:36< zaroth> Aethaeryn: <span color="red"> </span> works ;-)
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20110408 23:35:51< Aethaeryn> Crab_!
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20110408 23:43:54< fendrin> hi Crab_
20110408 23:45:25< Aethaeryn> Crab_: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SoC2011_Student_Page_Aethaeryn <- does this look good so far, especially the sample syntax? I made some subtle changes to the syntax from the pastebins
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--- Log closed Sat Apr 09 00:00:31 2011