--- Log opened Wed Apr 13 00:00:34 2011
--- Day changed Wed Apr 13 2011
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20110413 00:01:44< mordante> I'm off night
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20110413 00:01:51< Disruption> bye
20110413 00:05:01< Sytyi> mordante: ину
20110413 00:05:08< Sytyi> mordante: bye
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20110413 00:37:53 * Xenmen re-entered Wesnoth reality...
20110413 00:38:42 * Xenmen intends fully to manufacture this patch with any alchemy necessary
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20110413 00:59:27-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: Google Summer of Code: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SummerOfCodeIdeas | 199 bugs, 311 feature requests, 22 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
20110413 01:07:55< AI0867> fendrin: pong
20110413 01:08:09< fendrin> AI0867: hello
20110413 01:09:35< fendrin> I have had some problems with data structures I need in the editor_map. I think that is solved now by the usage of the ugly resources system.
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20110413 01:10:32< CIA-82> ai0867 * r49185 /branches/editor/src/SConscript: Fix compilation under scons
20110413 01:10:42< AI0867> which classes exactly?
20110413 01:12:44< fendrin> wait, let me commit
20110413 01:14:12< CIA-82> fendrin * r49186 /branches/editor/src/ (8 files in 3 dirs): 
20110413 01:14:12< CIA-82> Implemented the item class but not finished.
20110413 01:14:12< CIA-82> Tried to make the overlays work again but they are not shown.
20110413 01:15:05< fendrin> AI0867: I still need to fix scons compiling.
20110413 01:15:42< AI0867> fendrin: I think it should work now
20110413 01:16:03< AI0867> that is, it worked in r49185, and you haven't changed CMakeLists.txt since then
20110413 01:17:51< fendrin> AI0867: Ah yes, someone already added item.cpp to scons, I guess it was you.
20110413 01:19:06< fendrin> The item overlay stuff worked 3 commits in the past. But it was not map specific because I has only one item_overlay_map located in display.cpp. Now it is migrated to the editor_map.
20110413 01:19:27< fendrin> Everything looks fine in the debugger, the items are added but still they are not shown on the map.
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20110413 02:02:01< CIA-82> crimson_penguin * r49187 /trunk/projectfiles/Xcode/Wesnoth.xcodeproj/project.pbxproj: Updated XCode project file, from monochromatic.
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20110413 02:03:59< Xenmen> I'd like to set up Eclipse as my IDE for Wesnoth
20110413 02:04:17< Xenmen> but I'm lost as to how to do this
20110413 02:04:28< Xenmen> has anyone here gone this route before?
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20110413 02:05:38< Xenmen> Ah, a starting point: it looks like visual studio projects can be imported to Eclipse
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20110413 02:09:10< fendrin> Xenmen: cmake
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20110413 02:09:22< fendrin> cmake can export eclipse projects.
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20110413 02:10:52< Xenmen> cmake --help time...
20110413 02:10:53< Xenmen> thanks!
20110413 02:13:10< Xenmen> cmake -G "Eclipse CDT4 - Unix Makefiles"
20110413 02:13:12< Xenmen> Huzza!
20110413 02:13:19< Xenmen> fendrin: thanks 
20110413 02:14:00 * Xenmen teatime...
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20110413 02:15:35< fendrin> Xenmen: You are welcome.
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20110413 02:39:59< sytyi> mordante: Please, check Gna!. Interface part was done. Need parsing lines   and debug 
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20110413 05:15:37 * Xenmen reports: "So menus DON'T actually capture keypresses... because in 'window.cpp', there is a window manager for sending events to the appropriate window. There can't be any event capturing in the windows themselves."
20110413 05:15:58 * Xenmen believes that the issue might be in the main game loop...
20110413 05:16:05 * Xenmen is currently investigating this...
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20110413 05:53:28< Crab_> hi, champ
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20110413 05:58:30< fendrin> hi Crab_
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20110413 05:59:27< Crab_> hi, fendrin
20110413 05:59:51< Crab_> 'the early bird catches the bug' :)
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20110413 06:01:32< fendrin> Crab_: Well, I am not early awake, but still awake.
20110413 06:04:41< shadowmaster> Crab_: any chance you could take a look at https://gna.org/bugs/index.php?17591 some day?
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20110413 06:07:18< Crab_> shadowmaster: yes, I know about that one. during the GCI, we've got a replacement recruitment routine coded which doesn't have this issue, but it was not stable enough to be used at that time.
20110413 06:07:39< Crab_> shadowmaster: so, in time, I intend to fix those bugs, making this bug happier in the process.
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20110413 06:08:16< shadowmaster> You think you could leave a comment on the subject in the forum thraed or (preferably) tracker? :)
20110413 06:11:30< CIA-82> fendrin * r49188 /branches/editor/src/ (5 files in 3 dirs): [item] is now map specific.
20110413 06:16:48< Crab_> ok
20110413 06:18:37< Crab_> I don't have my gna password at hand, so I'll just paste a bit of irclog.
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20110413 06:34:55< champ> Crab_: hi, I'm back.
20110413 06:35:13< Crab_> hello
20110413 06:35:41< Crab_> so, I wanted to note a few things, and ask/answer some questions.
20110413 06:36:15< Crab_> 1) it is very important for you to submit at least one patch, fixing a bug or implementing something from your project (e.g., a prototype)
20110413 06:36:17< champ> Crab_: I think currently, I need to catch some tiny tasks to do.
20110413 06:36:51< Crab_> 2) currently, your wiki page lacks implementation details, so I wanted to learn more about them
20110413 06:38:32< Crab_> Compare your wiki page to wiki pages of other students applying for the AI project  - at least some of them have a timeline and an implementation description.
20110413 06:39:13< champ> Crab_: I'm going to detail the timeline and todo list
20110413 06:39:41< Crab_> I understand that due to TZ issues we had less chances to talk. that's why I got up at 6:20 localtime today, to be able to answer your questions and see what you can tell about your project.
20110413 06:41:46< champ> Crab_: But I think before I can detail the todo list, I need help to clear the ai code struture and fundamentals of Lua Engine in game.
20110413 06:42:10< Crab_> I'll be happy to help.
20110413 06:42:31< Crab_> Note, that from students applying to AI projects, we've received 2 AI-related patches (both from Nephro, https://gna.org/patch/?2599 and https://gna.org/patch/?2626 )
20110413 06:43:05< Crab_> so, for example, for any reasonable comparison of your two proposals, your will be (currently) at disadvantage because of patches, more details, and more IRC interaction.
20110413 06:43:18< Crab_> so those are the things that we need to work on with you.
20110413 06:45:30< Crab_> So, what questions do you have about the ai code struture and fundamentals of Lua Engine, and what do you plan to do ?
20110413 06:47:51< champ> so what is the entrance when a lua script is submit to the engine, and how they access the resource object.
20110413 06:48:31< champ> I mean, in which source files/classes. 
20110413 06:48:55< champ> Sorry for my typing speed is low.
20110413 06:50:28< Crab_> when we construct teams, in src/ai/manager.cpp, we initialize the AI from WML config. if this WML config includes definition for Lua Engine and lua-based components (candidate actions, stages), then they are created by lua engine (src/ai/composite/engine_lua.cpp). they are created as C++ wrappers around code which calls lua kernel (src/scripting/lua.cpp) to do the work.
20110413 06:50:50< Crab_> since they are created from WML, we take their code from WML.
20110413 06:51:48< Crab_> those lua ai action handlers have access to a upvalue which contains a 'ai context' which contains methods to get info about the ai or to execute actions.
20110413 06:53:07< Crab_> you can imagine the initialization as something like     {  ai_context = get_ai_context();      return function() { ai_context.user_code_to_move_unit_or_do_something_else() } }
20110413 06:54:05< Crab_> src/ai/lua/core.cpp contains support code for this to work, and contains ai-related callbacks available from the AI table which is an upvalue for lua ai action handlers.
20110413 06:54:32< Crab_> more info can be found at http://wiki.wesnoth.org/Customizing_AI_in_Wesnoth_1.8#how_AI_works.2C_a_short_developer-oriented_overview
20110413 06:54:39< Crab_> anything else that you've wanted to ask ?
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20110413 06:59:27-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: Google Summer of Code: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SummerOfCodeIdeas | 199 bugs, 311 feature requests, 23 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
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20110413 07:02:26< champ> Thanks for your answer, I think I just need to get familiar with the game project at this point. As this is my first time dealing with open source project, I just don't know what to start. I'm browsing http://devdocs.wesnoth.org/ and https://gna.org/patch/?group=wesnoth but still find hard to start. Any suggestions?
20110413 07:04:33< champ> Do I need to figure out the entire src/ functions like first?
20110413 07:07:18< Crab_> it's better to concentrate on things that are related to things you want to try or to things that you want to fix. for example, launch lua ai test scenario (wesnoth -t lua_ai -d) in a debugger, set some breakpoints in lua ai code in src/ai/composite/engine_lua.cpp and src/ai/lua/core.cpp , and see what the process is
20110413 07:07:38< Crab_> also read about the RCA loop, if you haven't already (it's the usual main loop of the AI)
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20110413 07:14:30< champ> ok, I'll check that first.
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20110413 07:15:51< Crab_> for the bugs, you can start with the really easy stuff
20110413 07:16:00< Crab_> like 'expose current value of caution aspect to lua code'
20110413 07:17:12< champ> Crab_: Any simple tasks in the AI related bugs in the bug list
20110413 07:19:35< champ> OK, I'll try some basic like 'expose current value of caution aspect to lua code' first
20110413 07:19:50< Crab_> 'expose current value of caution aspect to lua code' is the easiest thing I can think of, about 9 lines of work.
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20110413 08:15:38< Quetzalcoatl246> hi Crab_ :)
20110413 08:15:47< Crab_> hi, Quetzalcoatl246
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20110413 08:15:57< zaroth> who is suokko?
20110413 08:16:19 * zaroth just found him by git blame in data/test/ directory
20110413 08:16:26< Crab_> zaroth: a developer for wesnoth, was active several years ago. no longer active.
20110413 08:16:28< Quetzalcoatl246> wanted to ask you if there is any chance for a patch i submited some time ago :)
20110413 08:16:35< Crab_> Quetzalcoatl246: link, please
20110413 08:17:09< Crab_> zaroth: some of his changes were messy (accidentially broke the AI, esr has to do a lot of reverting to get it working back)
20110413 08:17:29< Quetzalcoatl246> https://gna.org/patch/?1937
20110413 08:18:16< Quetzalcoatl246> unfortunately some recent changes in gui stuff broke it
20110413 08:18:31< Quetzalcoatl246> so it has to be applied to older revisions
20110413 08:18:57< Quetzalcoatl246> just i dont know if there is any point in trying to fix it :)
20110413 08:18:58< Crab_> Quetzalcoatl246: the functionality will definitely be included, sooner or later.
20110413 08:19:08< Crab_> zaroth: can you take a look at ^ ?
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20110413 08:19:57< Quetzalcoatl246> is it possible I can do antything more to help with this one?
20110413 08:20:10< zaroth> Crab_: sure
20110413 08:20:41< Crab_> Quetzalcoatl246: you want it for 1.9 or for 1.8 ?
20110413 08:20:52< Quetzalcoatl246> 1.9
20110413 08:20:58< zaroth> Quetzalcoatl246: I'm planning to do it as a part of MP creation screen revamp, so even if I don't use it directly, it may help me :-)
20110413 08:21:01< Quetzalcoatl246> its new feature in vact
20110413 08:21:17< Crab_> we have a potential gsoc related to MP creation screen changes/improvements
20110413 08:21:27< Quetzalcoatl246> zaroth: I found it isnt related to server really
20110413 08:21:50< Crab_> if one of zaroth / vjoe / xenmen 's proposals gets accepted, that is
20110413 08:21:51< Quetzalcoatl246> it just sends config if i rememebr correctly and clients read it from server
20110413 08:22:06< Quetzalcoatl246> but that really do not do much more that that :)
20110413 08:22:08< Crab_> and it will be known on 25th April.
20110413 08:22:44< Crab_> Quetzalcoatl246: if someone of the gsoc students will test it out and update to match the latest revision, I'll commit it.
20110413 08:22:55< Quetzalcoatl246> ah k
20110413 08:23:19< Crab_> Quetzalcoatl246: also, while you're here... it would be a good thing to talk about other things that are missing from MP creation screen
20110413 08:23:31< Quetzalcoatl246> but i can try to do that
20110413 08:23:54< Quetzalcoatl246> just to find where the gui2 mp create game part is
20110413 08:24:12< Crab_> Quetzalcoatl246: gu2 part is not done yet, I suppose )
20110413 08:24:13< Quetzalcoatl246> yes?
20110413 08:24:21< Quetzalcoatl246> well
20110413 08:24:25< Quetzalcoatl246> idk
20110413 08:24:27< Crab_> Quetzalcoatl246: can you suggest any other such things, that would be useful to have in MP creation screen ?
20110413 08:24:42< Quetzalcoatl246> just found huge changes in one of the source files
20110413 08:24:51< Quetzalcoatl246> and thought that may be the case
20110413 08:26:08< Quetzalcoatl246> hmmm, nothing comes to my mind
20110413 08:26:20< zaroth> Quetzalcoatl246: i had some other ideas regarding the mp creation screen shuffling
20110413 08:26:44< zaroth> i wrote them in a PM to Rigor in a forum, could you comment if they're useful?
20110413 08:26:48< Quetzalcoatl246> zaroth: can you give examples?
20110413 08:26:55< zaroth> I'll forward it to you on forum
20110413 08:27:33< Quetzalcoatl246> for some time now i have no contact with rigor :P
20110413 08:28:05 * zaroth gives up on trying to type your name and just copypastes it
20110413 08:29:29< Quetzalcoatl246> ah
20110413 08:29:55< zaroth> now I also looked at it, I remembered what I mainly meant
20110413 08:30:00< zaroth> within-team shuffling ;-)
20110413 08:30:13< Quetzalcoatl246> presserving teams could be useful but this would require two buttons i guess or some kind dropdown menu
20110413 08:31:42< Quetzalcoatl246> anyway
20110413 08:32:10< Quetzalcoatl246> if you want fell free to take this patch :)
20110413 08:32:27< zaroth> Quetzalcoatl246: I'm eager, since I also want this feature
20110413 08:32:43< zaroth> and I don't know when I get to revamping the creation screen 
20110413 08:32:46< Quetzalcoatl246> what it mostly do is it adds mutatiors to one class :)
20110413 08:33:07< zaroth> yes, it surprised me though, that you had to add getters setters for team in multiplayer::side
20110413 08:33:15< zaroth> were there really no means to access it?
20110413 08:33:27< zaroth> (I know, you wrote it long ago and don't remember, but I'll check it :P )
20110413 08:34:55< Quetzalcoatl246> you need to apply it to one of the older revisions
20110413 08:35:30< Quetzalcoatl246> hopefully it will be ok
20110413 08:36:06< Quetzalcoatl246> but it was my first attempt at c++ :)
20110413 08:36:25< zaroth> did you test it online? ;-)
20110413 08:36:30< Quetzalcoatl246> yes
20110413 08:36:37< Quetzalcoatl246> and offline :P
20110413 08:37:35< zaroth> :)
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20110413 08:43:17< Quetzalcoatl246> btw is codeblocks best ide for working with wesnoth sources i can find for linux?
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20110413 08:44:30< zaroth> Quetzalcoatl246: I totally recommend kdevelop
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20110413 08:44:55< zaroth> although it fails me with editing one file (game_events.cpp), it's absolutely awesome for a newcomer to Wesnoth code like me
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20110413 08:45:32< zaroth> mainly because of hover-up quick documentation, completion and quick jumping to definitions/declarations
20110413 08:46:45< zaroth> (and, as somebody's said, the most complete C++ parsers up to date are MVC++'s, g++'s and KDevelop's - however I don't know how much truth is in that)
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20110413 08:48:55< Quetzalcoatl246> thx i will take a look at it :)
20110413 08:51:22< zaroth> Quetzalcoatl246: remember then, ctrl+shift+c jumps to declaration ;-)
20110413 08:51:36< zaroth> it's the shortcut I use the most, probably
20110413 08:51:48< zaroth> (and when you use it on declaration, it jumps to definition)
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20110413 08:56:40< Quetzalcoatl246> zaroth: k thx :)
20110413 09:05:57< zaroth> Crab_: you asked me for getting vector<int> out of the side=
20110413 09:06:09< zaroth> now I'm doing some testing and it occured to me a set<int> would make more sense
20110413 09:06:11< zaroth> do you agree?
20110413 09:08:17< Crab_> the number of sides is not that big
20110413 09:08:33< zaroth> but i wouldn't have to care for duplicates in the code
20110413 09:08:44< zaroth> in case somebody specifies side=1,1,1
20110413 09:08:44< Crab_> yes, you're right
20110413 09:08:53< Crab_> set is better because of that.
20110413 09:10:46< Crab_> still, removing duplicates from a vector is not that hard (1 line)
20110413 09:12:31< zaroth> by the way, foreach(const int &side, my_sides_set) is correct syntax, right?
20110413 09:13:25< shadowmaster> yes
20110413 09:13:54< Crab_> afair, yes. there is a problem with std::map, you have to typedef the type before using it in a foreach
20110413 09:14:08 * zaroth started liking foreach after initial novelty shock
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20110413 09:14:20< Crab_> it is BOOST_FOREACH, actually :)
20110413 09:14:27< Crab_> and the comma in std::pair<a,b>  confuses the macro
20110413 09:14:37< Crab_> so, with maps, a typedef is necessary
20110413 09:14:50< shadowmaster> the "problem" with STL maps is that the value type is really a std::pair<keyT, valueT>
20110413 09:15:32< shadowmaster> you could choose not to use a typedef if you don't care about a messy looking loop "condition" line
20110413 09:15:49< Crab_> shadowmaster: what kind of loop condition ?
20110413 09:16:09< shadowmaster> i.e. foreach(const std::pair<keyT, valueT>& ref, map_ref)
20110413 09:16:15< Crab_> shadowmaster: should not work.
20110413 09:16:27< shadowmaster> IIRC it does work
20110413 09:16:28< Crab_> you're passing 3 arguments to the foreach macro
20110413 09:16:43< Crab_> const std::pair<keyT      valueT>& ref      map_ref
20110413 09:16:47 * shadowmaster scratches head
20110413 09:16:57< shadowmaster> perhaps I'm thinking of the Qt foreach
20110413 09:17:07< Crab_> I'm not familiar with their implementation
20110413 09:17:13< zaroth> I think Crab_ is right, macros are rather dumb ;-)
20110413 09:17:20< Afan> Macro's are evil
20110413 09:18:00< Afan> But, with microsoft express IIRC if you have more parameters than a macro needs i think it just gives you a warning and not a compile error
20110413 09:18:21< Crab_> Afan: well, the issue is that the parameters don't make sence in that case
20110413 09:18:26< Afan> But i guess the funky data you sent wouldnt make
20110413 09:18:27< Afan> yeah
20110413 09:18:57< Crab_> typedef works, of course, since the extra comma is no longer there.
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20110413 09:27:41< CIA-82> fendrin * r49189 /branches/editor/src/gui/dialogs/editor/: Directory for editor dialogs.
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20110413 09:33:49< zaroth> Crab_: https://gna.org/patch/index.php?2637
20110413 09:34:02< champ> Crab_: The commander line inputed lua code is handled by scripting/lua.cpp and submited to lua/lapi.c, and ai/lua/core is just a tool for scripting, is that right?
20110413 09:34:04 * zaroth hopes not to have to touch game_events.cpp anytime soon
20110413 09:35:21< zaroth> Crab_: I tested the first usage of it in code, [allow_recruit] with the .cfg attached to the patch
20110413 09:35:51< shadowmaster> Just installed and checked Qt4's documentation; Qt's implementation also suffers from BOOST_FOREACH's limitation
20110413 09:36:05< Crab_> zaroth: thanks
20110413 09:36:09< zaroth> I didn't test the second one, but since I assured it's getting the sides list right from the first usage, I didn't feel the need to do it for the second one
20110413 09:37:30< Crab_> champ: yes. note that lua/lapi.c is a part of lua interpreter itself.
20110413 09:37:40< Crab_> zaroth: ' for (int side_num=1; side_num <= static_cast<int>(resources::teams->size()); ++side_num) '      <= ?
20110413 09:37:57< zaroth> erm...
20110413 09:37:59< Crab_> zaroth: ah, yes, I agree )
20110413 09:38:05< Crab_> zaroth: just forgot that those are 1-based
20110413 09:38:22< zaroth> I thought you didn't agree with the cast ;-)
20110413 09:38:37< zaroth> but I prefer to cast unsigned to signed, than the other way
20110413 09:39:01< Crab_> it's ok with the cast, afair it's used in some places of wesnoth's code already.
20110413 09:39:07< zaroth> (since most of the time the used unsigned numbers are small anyway)
20110413 09:40:25< Crab_> zaroth: in 'role',  has_any_sides, what's it is for ?
20110413 09:40:59< zaroth> something that bothers me a little is that the second function had a tad different usage
20110413 09:41:06< zaroth> yes, that's what bothered me, just checking
20110413 09:41:24< Crab_> zaroth: the patches were done by different people, I believe, with different styles
20110413 09:41:44< zaroth> Crab_: I just discovered it
20110413 09:41:51< zaroth> the two tags had different default behaviour
20110413 09:41:56< zaroth> side= in the first one
20110413 09:42:01< zaroth> had a default of 1
20110413 09:42:07< zaroth> side= in the second one
20110413 09:42:11< zaroth> had a default of nothing
20110413 09:42:18< zaroth> and if nothing was specified, it acted as "all"
20110413 09:42:23< Crab_> the first is correct
20110413 09:42:39< Crab_> so, your patch makes them behave in a uniform way
20110413 09:42:54< zaroth> I believe so, yes
20110413 09:43:09< zaroth> I asked the zookeeper about what the default should be
20110413 09:43:23< zaroth> he recommended to leave it at 1
20110413 09:43:38< zaroth> I didn't tell him that the two usages had different defaults...
20110413 09:44:01< Crab_> zaroth: but, tell me, what will happen if side=5 is passed to your code ?
20110413 09:44:31< zaroth> if a invalid side is given, such as -5 or 5 for that matter
20110413 09:44:36< zaroth> it will be empty
20110413 09:44:43< zaroth> I really wasn't sure what to do with that
20110413 09:44:49< zaroth> I can easily change it to 1 as well
20110413 09:45:14< Crab_> zaroth: well, it's reasonable to do anything you want, as long as you don't crash
20110413 09:45:20< Crab_> it'll be nice to emit a warning, as well
20110413 09:45:24< zaroth> I also considered printing a warning
20110413 09:45:29< zaroth> yes, that's what I thought
20110413 09:45:32< Crab_> sometimes people care about them :)
20110413 09:46:26< Crab_> also, I think that it would be better to extract 'side_num < 1 || side_num > static_cast<int>(resources::teams->size()' to a helper function
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20110413 09:46:44< Crab_> as you use it twice, both directly and negated.
20110413 09:47:05< zaroth> such as team::valid_team?
20110413 09:47:33< Crab_> just a static function in game_events.cpp would be ok
20110413 09:47:50< Crab_> it doesn't belong well to team.cpp ....
20110413 09:47:57< Crab_> since team.cpp is concerned with 1 team
20110413 09:48:12< zaroth> right, more like resources
20110413 09:48:14< Crab_> 'and is side valid ?' is gamestate depending. sometimes 5 can be a valid side, after all. sometimes not.
20110413 09:48:16< Crab_> yes
20110413 09:48:27< zaroth> but resources is as light as possible, as I noticed
20110413 09:48:32< zaroth> forward declarations and everything
20110413 09:48:44< zaroth> so it doesn't fit there either
20110413 09:49:11< Crab_> actions.cpp ?
20110413 09:50:06< Crab_> we don't have game_rules.cpp, unfortunately :)
20110413 09:50:42< zaroth> you know, I also did use this a lot when coding the control dialog
20110413 09:52:41< zaroth> and to use it, I'd have to include actions.hpp there as well... which doesn't really fit :-)
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20110413 09:53:18< zaroth> (but the mass-dependency demon surely would be happy)
20110413 09:55:30< Crab_> just make it static local, then
20110413 09:55:42< Crab_> and, maybe later someone will move it to a new file
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20110413 10:11:06< Quetzalcoatl246> forgot about this one I have idea for stunning new feature :P It would be so awesome if presistent variables could be shared between clients in multiplayer game (I were looking for it in wiki but was unable to find it so I guess it isnt implemented) :)
20110413 10:17:46< Crab_> Quetzalcoatl246: it is implemented.
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20110413 10:18:17< Crab_> Quetzalcoatl246: note http://wiki.wesnoth.org/PersistenceWML#WML_Syntax, it has side=
20110413 10:19:22< Crab_> Quetzalcoatl246: so, you can get a variable from any side, local or remote
20110413 10:19:30< Crab_> do it in a loop for all sides, and you're set.
20110413 10:19:40< Ivanovic> moin
20110413 10:19:45< Crab_> hello, Ivanovic
20110413 10:25:48< zaroth> Crab_: Quetzalcoatl246: I have updated the patch to the latest trunk, will post it once it's tested by me
20110413 10:25:55< zaroth> (the shuffle sides patch)
20110413 10:26:20< Crab_> zaroth: great, thanks
20110413 10:26:20< Quetzalcoatl246> Crab_: thank you
20110413 10:26:38< Quetzalcoatl246> Crab_: dont know hows it possible i missed it :/
20110413 10:27:05< zaroth> however, I'd like to delay it a little - if I don't get to the participated GSoC, it can be posted as-is
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20110413 10:27:20< Quetzalcoatl246> zaroth: awesome thx, btw i send you pm on forums
20110413 10:27:38< zaroth> if I get to do it, I'd include it maybe a little later, once I get to do some decisions about how I want the new mp creation screen to look like
20110413 10:28:28< zaroth> I hope it isn't a problem, since there is no rush, 1.10 will be minimum after ~8 months :-)
20110413 10:28:46< zaroth> (however the feature freeze may be earlier)
20110413 10:29:46< Quetzalcoatl246> I thought that 1.10 will be in a few months from now :)
20110413 10:30:56< zaroth> Quetzalcoatl246: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/Fosdem2011#Wesnoth_1.10
20110413 10:32:04< zaroth> got to go now, see you!
20110413 10:32:06 * zaroth waves
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20110413 10:39:03< Crab_> zaroth: bye
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20110413 10:51:04< Ivanovic> zaroth: btw once you are back: since you have plenty patches accepted so far, feel free to apply for group member ship at gna.org to get commit access
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20110413 12:18:41 * Nephro doesn't understand why a source file suddenly starts yelling that it doesn't know what resources:: is and what's a LuaKernel, when 5 minutes earlier it worked perfectly
20110413 12:22:57< epyon> include mixup?
20110413 12:24:27< Nephro> well, I think I have already included more files than I should've, all the headers seem to be guarded
20110413 12:26:06< epyon> they may interreact :/
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20110413 12:32:15< Nephro> By the way, could the order in which I include headers matter at all?
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20110413 12:59:27-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: Google Summer of Code: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SummerOfCodeIdeas | 199 bugs, 311 feature requests, 24 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
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20110413 14:35:13< champ> Crab_: hi
20110413 14:35:35< Crab_> hi
20110413 14:37:51< Nephro> Crab_, hi... I am struggling with the aspects, and have encountered a weird problem... lua_rawgeti() started shooting exceptions in lua_ai_action_handler::handle()... It is pretty hard to understand what causes this, but I think it has occured because I transfered static char const aisKey     = 0; to the header. Can you explain to me please the purpose of aisKey, because I don't seem to understand it
20110413 14:38:39< champ> Crab_: to 'expose current value of caution aspect to lua code', I need to alter ai::engine_lua in ai/composite/engine_lua and override the virtual function do_parse_aspect_from_config in ai::engine, right?
20110413 14:39:07< Crab_> champ: no, you should change the AI table available to lua code, in src/ai/lua/core.cpp
20110413 14:40:39< champ> Crab_: ok, let me check again
20110413 14:42:15< Crab_> Nephro: we don't use aisKey directly. what we use is the address of aisKey
20110413 14:43:04< Nephro> Crab_, yes, I noticed that, that's why I am worried that for some mystical(purely explainable) reason, moving it to the header messed that up
20110413 14:43:14< Crab_> Nephro: basically, we have a relationship between aisKey and a lua table
20110413 14:44:21< Crab_> don't know exactly. if it's just 'move to header' - well, maybe the compiler put it a different memory segment. can't think of any other reasons.
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20110413 14:45:30< Nephro> I'll try moving it back and find a way to access it somehow
20110413 14:45:45< Crab_> why do you need to access it?
20110413 14:46:36< Nephro> because I've also moved lua_ai_action_handler::handle to the header
20110413 14:46:49< Crab_> why do you need it in the header ?
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20110413 14:47:42< Nephro> If I want to use it for aspects it need to be a template, at least I didn't succeed to find another way
20110413 14:48:02< Nephro> Well, there is one way, but it's horribly messy
20110413 14:48:10< Crab_> messy, yes.
20110413 14:48:20< Crab_> I mean 'this way' is messy :)
20110413 14:48:58< Crab_> you can pass a (smart) pointer  to lua_ai_action_handler::handle
20110413 14:49:16< Crab_> pass a templated subclass of the base 'converter lua object'
20110413 14:49:45< Crab_> i.e. have non-templated lua_object_base, and templated lua_object<T> : public lua_object_base
20110413 14:50:00< Crab_> then, pass 'lua_object_base*' to ::handle
20110413 14:50:11< Crab_> and invoke it's ->convert(L) method
20110413 14:50:17< Crab_> passing the lua state to it
20110413 14:50:20< Nephro> wow, that's clever
20110413 14:50:39< Crab_> it will do it's templated work, while  lua_ai_action_handler::handle will remain happily ignorant.
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20110413 14:52:57< Nephro> in this case I will have to teach the other users of this code to work with lua_objects, because the current version(the templated) doesn't cause the need for modifications
20110413 14:53:18< Crab_> passing a null pointer is easy enough
20110413 14:53:39< Crab_> and they only need to know about a forward declaration of your lua_object_base, no need to include any headers.
20110413 14:55:19< Crab_> the usual approach I use in this case is to use smart pointers for this, and 'typedef boost::shared_ptr<lua_object_base> lua_object_ptr'
20110413 14:56:58< Crab_> Nephro: ok, good luck, I'll read the logs to see if there are any other questions
20110413 14:57:02< Crab_> bye
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20110413 14:59:31< Nephro> Yes, I'll need luck
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20110413 15:54:26< fabi> zookeeper: Hi, say I want to have an animated camp fire. When do I use [item] for that and when do I use [terrain_graphic]? I have seen solutions for both.
20110413 15:56:01< zookeeper> fabi, [terrain_graphics] is used when you need units to get drawn on top of it. using [item] halo= you'll always end up drawing in front of units.
20110413 15:56:43< fabi> huh
20110413 15:56:55< fabi> And [item] image= ?
20110413 15:57:03< zookeeper> doesn't support animations.
20110413 15:57:15< fabi> I know it can't be used to animate but this will not cover the unit, right?
20110413 15:57:17< zookeeper> (unless someone has added that, which i doubt)
20110413 15:57:21< zookeeper> correct
20110413 15:57:57< fabi> That makes [item] halo= more or less unusable for almost all situations.
20110413 15:58:28< zookeeper> for animated scenery, yes
20110413 15:59:32< fabi> For what purpose is it usable?
20110413 16:00:20< zookeeper> for anything which is ok to draw on top of units? an animated campfire glow for example, or something.
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20110413 16:01:38< fabi> zookeeper: Thank you.
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20110413 17:01:09< Qbunia> hi 
20110413 17:01:38< Qbunia> hwo i can speed up ai turns? i know that i can check option that dosent show animation of ai moves but can i do more ??
20110413 17:01:41< Qbunia> to speed it up ?
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20110413 17:18:07< Ivanovic> Qbunia_: besides turning animations and stuff off you might be able to speed stuff up by simply playing different scenarios
20110413 17:18:15< Ivanovic> meaning less units, smaller maps and the likes
20110413 17:18:29< Ivanovic> beside this there is only one thing to do (at the moment): get a faster cpu
20110413 17:18:30< Ivanovic> ;)
20110413 17:19:04< Qbunia_> Ivanovic: ahh i see thx ;) 
20110413 17:19:23< Ivanovic> mainly the ai speed depends on the number of units (friendly and enemy) as well as the map
20110413 17:23:15< fendrin> Qbunia_: May I ask how fast your cpu is?
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20110413 17:23:51< Qbunia_> fendrin: mm 4gb ram, dual core and geforce 9800 i guess
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20110413 17:24:12< fendrin> Qbunia_: I think the bottleneck is not the cpu.
20110413 17:24:22< Qbunia_> btw in ai can i specify after which turn ai should so something ? 
20110413 17:24:46< Qbunia_> whats bottleneck?
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20110413 17:27:51< Ivanovic> fendrin: if the map is large enough and there are say 100 units per side ai turns can take a while
20110413 17:27:59< Ivanovic> Qbunia_: though, are you using windows?
20110413 17:28:09< Ivanovic> if you are, you could check if the linux version is faster for you
20110413 17:28:40< Ivanovic> (there were some times when some (tiny) numbers of windows users had significantly less speed than expected and available on linux boxes with the same specs)
20110413 17:30:59< Qbunia_> linux is faster...
20110413 17:31:07< Qbunia_> a lot faster
20110413 17:32:24< Ivanovic> probably something strange in your windows install
20110413 17:32:30< Ivanovic> which programs are you running in the background?
20110413 17:32:53< Ivanovic> there was some issue with some virus scanner / firewall thingie that *extremely* slowed things down for some users
20110413 17:35:48< Qbunia_> firewall for sure
20110413 17:36:30< Qbunia_> asd
20110413 17:37:34< Qbunia_> hmm its not the firewall ... 
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20110413 18:00:50< zaroth> Ivanovic: done
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20110413 18:13:56< Qbunia_> where i should put my savegame to load it in game?
20110413 18:14:40< zaroth> Qbunia_: wesnothdatadir/saves/
20110413 18:14:45< Qbunia_> see tghx
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20110413 18:14:56< zaroth> I meant wesnothuserdatadir/
20110413 18:15:09< zaroth> that is, ~/.wesnoth/ on linux
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20110413 18:18:42< Gambit> Qbunia_, zaroth: That'll depend on the version though.
20110413 18:19:09< Gambit> 1.9 is in ~/.local/share/wesnoth/
20110413 18:23:19< Qbunia_> thx i already found it :)
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20110413 18:26:24< Qbunia_> default engine for AI is cpp??
20110413 18:26:56< Qbunia_> iam interested in bug of recruting 
20110413 18:27:07< Qbunia_> that AI recruits only one unit all the time
20110413 18:27:18< Qbunia_> and i like to see the code :) 
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20110413 18:29:32< zaroth> Crab_: I just thought about a feature that SP has and MP doesn't, choosing your advancement during opponent's turn
20110413 18:33:17< timotei> Qbunia_: of course. almost everything except lua and wml is C++ in wesnoth
20110413 18:33:38< timotei> Qbunia_: well... while Crab_ comes back, you could try finding for yourself
20110413 18:34:08< timotei> Qbunia_: someone being a mentor won't hold your hands at each step. You have to discover yourself some of the wesnoth's corners ;)
20110413 18:34:24< timotei> Qbunia_: and you can *always* use a grep on the src/ folder, searching for keyword
20110413 18:34:46< timotei> for example, since you are interesting in recruiting: fgrep -rni "recruit" src/
20110413 18:34:47< timotei> :)
20110413 18:34:51< timotei> and start digging ;)
20110413 18:35:22< Crendgrim> timotei: the "exception" are a big bunch of python scripts ;)
20110413 18:35:31< timotei> Crendgrim: oh. that too :P
20110413 18:35:47< timotei> well, I didn't even mentioned the java. but I think he/I was refering to the engine :P
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20110413 18:42:58< Qbunia_> timotei: i alraedy found it :D
20110413 18:43:12< Qbunia_> timotei: but i found that all AI moves go to AI log?
20110413 18:43:20< Qbunia_> timotei: i like to see that LOG ! 
20110413 18:43:20< timotei> Qbunia_: IDK
20110413 18:43:24< Qbunia_> ;(
20110413 18:43:33< Qbunia_> 		LOG_AI << "we have " << unit_types["scout"] << " scouts already and we want " 			<< scouts_wanted << " in total\n";
20110413 18:43:38< timotei> Qbunia_: you see? it's better when you search for yourself. that way you get acustomed to ... the code
20110413 18:43:43< timotei> Qbunia_: well. there is the:
20110413 18:43:51< timotei> --log-ai=all command
20110413 18:43:52< timotei> iirc
20110413 18:43:59< timotei> go in game.cpp, and search for : --log
20110413 18:44:04< timotei> or run the game with: --help
20110413 18:44:27< Qbunia_> ah isee ok :) 
20110413 18:44:55< Qbunia_> timotei: hehe u are right i have to dig something on my own and not depeent on Crab existence ;D
20110413 18:45:59< timotei> well... you'll need to depend on he if you get selected for the AI task ;)
20110413 18:46:07< timotei> since he will give you the marks ;)
20110413 18:46:18< Qbunia_> yes i know but i mean now 
20110413 18:46:22< timotei> ok
20110413 18:46:24< timotei> :P
20110413 18:46:40< Qbunia_> i ask questions cuz hmm :P it makes my research short 
20110413 18:46:58< Qbunia_> and iam afraid i will not make in time with updaing some code to my proporsal
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20110413 18:50:57< Xenmen> zaroth: could you explain to me how your hacky mp campaign support patch works?
20110413 18:51:19< zaroth> Xenmen: of course
20110413 18:51:28< zaroth> I introduced a new tag, mp_campaign in it
20110413 18:51:50< zaroth> which behaves just like [campaign] except by that that it's read by mp creation screen
20110413 18:52:11< zaroth> and you can specify a define= in it, which in turn unlocks the LoW content
20110413 18:52:20< Ivanovic> zaroth: okay, added you to the group
20110413 18:52:56< zaroth> I also added a difficulty button, to allow mimicking difficulty choice from regular campaigns
20110413 18:53:00< Ivanovic> zaroth: that is: once you have an ssh key uploaded (and it is registered in the system which takes some hours) you can switch your svn checkout and commit stuff
20110413 18:53:08< zaroth> Ivanovic: yay, awesome!
20110413 18:53:13 * zaroth opens champagne
20110413 18:53:13< timotei> zaroth: congrats!:D
20110413 18:53:26< Xenmen> zaroth: Cheers!   ;D
20110413 18:53:28< timotei> Qbunia_: well... that's not a good reason to ask :P
20110413 18:53:59< Xenmen> I am impressed how quickly you got that in
20110413 18:54:19< Xenmen> I've been very slow in grasping the codebase so far
20110413 18:54:30< zaroth> by the way, regarding the old not being able to advance during another player's turn: I think I'll keep the new code clean from if(sp) if(mp) statements
20110413 18:54:40< zaroth> and make behaviour uniform all around
20110413 18:54:50< zaroth> that is, not being able to choose in SP as well
20110413 18:55:03< zaroth> to counter that, I digged up awesome old zookeper's idea
20110413 18:55:13< zaroth> http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?t=14709
20110413 18:55:47< zaroth> oh sorry, dborg's, zookeeper just commented on it
20110413 18:56:03< Xenmen> hrm
20110413 18:56:15< zaroth> to make the rename unit dialog more functional
20110413 18:56:32< zaroth> and add the default advancements in there
20110413 18:56:32< Xenmen> (This IS a good idea...)
20110413 18:56:59< zaroth> I know that things got a little bit complicated since when this was discussed (we added fancy AMLA stuff), but I still think it won't be that hard to implement
20110413 18:57:24< Xenmen> I'm in an awkward position now though...   X]
20110413 18:57:43-!- Afan_ [~IceChat77@c-76-29-51-121.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110413 18:57:47< Xenmen> That patch of yours means my GSoC idea is actually a cinch
20110413 18:57:58< zaroth> noy, Soliton, zookeper: ^ what do you think of that?
20110413 18:58:02< Xenmen> in fact, you've essentially already implemented it
20110413 18:58:22< Xenmen> Time to PM Crab, now that I'm not deathly sick anymore...
20110413 18:59:22< zaroth> Xenmen: don't give up :-)
20110413 18:59:57< zaroth> the hope is only lost when you stop trying
20110413 19:00:27< Xenmen> Quite true
20110413 19:01:14-!- koda|work [~koda@lvcc-66-78-205-2.smartcity.com] has joined #wesnoth-dev
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20110413 19:02:51< Xenmen> aha!
20110413 19:02:58< Xenmen> http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SoC_Ideas_Persistent_Gameworld
20110413 19:03:27< Xenmen> I was just searching through mp ideas for Wesnoth
20110413 19:03:54< Xenmen> and that 
20110413 19:03:58< Xenmen> is an idea that resonates with me
20110413 19:04:09-!- boucman [~rosen@wesnoth/developer/boucman] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110413 19:04:15< boucman> hey all
20110413 19:04:16< zaroth> timotei, Xenmen: thanks for the congrats as well :-)
20110413 19:04:23< zaroth> hello boucman
20110413 19:04:30< Xenmen> boucman: greetings fair sir
20110413 19:06:15< Crendgrim> who is responsible for the Wiki / has admin rights there?
20110413 19:06:15< Xenmen> hey, is anyone up for a quick match in 1.9.5?
20110413 19:06:15-!- Afan_ [~IceChat77@c-76-29-51-121.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20110413 19:06:27< Crendgrim> There're many new pages looking like spam over there...
20110413 19:06:49-!- markus_ [~mjs-de@e183142195.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110413 19:06:52< Crendgrim> (or advertising. I don't really get the sense of it. I can only tell it's not wesnoth-related..)
20110413 19:07:10< Xenmen> Crendgrim: could you give an example?
20110413 19:07:16< Crendgrim> http://wiki.wesnoth.org/Friday_Payday_20
20110413 19:07:21< Crendgrim> http://wiki.wesnoth.org/Hmm_met_de_fiets_of_met_de_auto_naar_t_werk_of_23
20110413 19:07:27< Crendgrim> or, easier: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/Special:RecentChanges
20110413 19:07:43< Xenmen> D:
20110413 19:08:12< Xenmen> yeah, that's a problem...
20110413 19:08:17< Crendgrim> what is that supposed to achieve?
20110413 19:08:22< Crendgrim> getting people clicking on those links?
20110413 19:08:28< Gambit> Crab_, Aethaeryn, shadowmaster: ^^^
20110413 19:08:35< Xenmen> auto-insurance, EVERYWHERE
20110413 19:09:06< Crendgrim> http://wiki.wesnoth.org/Apparently_I_haven_t_had_health_insurance_from_3_months_38
20110413 19:09:23< boucman> Crendgrim: uncrease google ranking I suppose
20110413 19:09:23< Crendgrim> the date of those articles goes back to 6th of April
20110413 19:09:33< Crendgrim> before that I cannot check
20110413 19:09:44< Crendgrim> well.. maybe I can..
20110413 19:10:01< Qbunia_> mm if i run wesnoth --log smth smth where logs are stored and whats the name?
20110413 19:10:10-!- mjs-de [~mjs-de@e182041131.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
20110413 19:11:16< Crendgrim> 5th of April there's also one ... going further back isn't possible for me
20110413 19:11:25< Gambit> Qbunia_: The terminal
20110413 19:12:48-!- Afan_ [~IceChat77@c-76-29-51-121.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
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20110413 19:12:58< zaroth> Crendgrim: that's also a nice listing of useless wiki pages: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/Special:LonelyPages
20110413 19:13:06< Crendgrim> zaroth: I'm checking that currently
20110413 19:13:21< Crendgrim> zaroth: many wesnoth-related stuff there... I didn't find anything before April until now
20110413 19:13:54< Crendgrim> http://wiki.wesnoth.org/Welcome_to_australia_D_95 < 31th of March
20110413 19:14:19< Crendgrim> so it seems to have started at the end of March
20110413 19:14:33< Xenmen> Ah; I'll bet it's the SoC traffic
20110413 19:14:33< zaroth> well, it'd still be nice to link/remove the lonely pages
20110413 19:14:47< Xenmen> Wesnoth became a target when the traffic boost hit
20110413 19:14:47< Qbunia_> ok 
20110413 19:14:56< Xenmen> and then the bots came
20110413 19:16:24< Gambit> Wesnoth is under constant assault from bots on all of our dynamic webpages :(
20110413 19:16:24-!- esr [~chatzilla@static-71-162-243-5.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20110413 19:16:25-!- Afan_ [~IceChat77@c-76-29-51-121.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20110413 19:16:48-!- esr [~chatzilla@static-71-162-243-5.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110413 19:17:33< Crendgrim> so Wesnoth is taken seriously ;)
20110413 19:18:38< boucman> wesbot: seen iskander
20110413 19:18:39< wesbot> boucman: Person, who 59d 2h ago used nick Iskander, last spoke 59d 6h ago.  55d 22h ago as Guest39876 they left with the message: Client Quit
20110413 19:19:16< Xenmen> that's a long time ago
20110413 19:19:56< Xenmen> How difficult would it be to change the registration process?
20110413 19:20:20< Xenmen> maybe add the 1984 deal like gna has
20110413 19:21:13-!- Afan_ [~IceChat77@c-76-29-51-121.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110413 19:21:18< Xenmen> I doubt whoever is running these bots will bother to update them for the Wesnoth Wiki   :P
20110413 19:23:28-!- Afan_ [~IceChat77@c-76-29-51-121.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20110413 19:24:30 * boucman does some patch cleaning
20110413 19:32:01-!- eleazzaar [~jbjerk@ppp-70-226-207-172.dsl.spfdil.ameritech.net] has quit [Quit: eleazzaar]
20110413 19:39:49-!- tschmitz [80726b26@gateway/web/freenode/ip.128.114.107.38] has quit [Quit: Page closed]
20110413 19:41:51-!- Sytyi [~chatzilla@197-52-133-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86.1 [Firefox 4.0/20110303194838]]
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20110413 19:51:21< timotei> Xenmen: it doesn't matter. I mean... 50% there are people behind that
20110413 19:51:26< timotei> they are getting paied to post spam :)
20110413 19:51:43< timotei> and it seems VIM is so awesomely cool doing VHDL autocomplete
20110413 19:51:46< Xenmen> There aren't any units that have... 'sub'units, right? Like say a giant and his shield bearer that function as one unit and take up one hex, but where there's a chance that one or the other will be killed while defending (the odds increase when surrounded). THEN the sprite and attributes change. Wesnoth doesn't have that right now, right?
20110413 19:52:24< Xenmen> Vim has VHDL autocomplete?
20110413 19:52:39< Xenmen> Freedom from Designworks!   XD
20110413 19:53:04< Xenmen> gah, you're a wonderful terrible influence Timotei...
20110413 19:53:30< timotei> Xenmen: what??
20110413 19:54:07-!- mjs-de [~mjs-de@e183142195.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20110413 19:56:07< Xenmen> I guess it'd be called a "multi-stage unit"... or "multi-phase" or something...
20110413 19:56:36< timotei> Xenmen: is "DesignWOrks" some logic design app?
20110413 19:56:44< Xenmen> timotei: I mean; you gave interesting information, I like that, but I'm easily distracted by interesting things   :P
20110413 19:57:02< timotei> Xenmen: ah. just doing my pipelines MIPS Processor xD
20110413 19:57:06< timotei> nothing fancy (yet!)
20110413 19:57:15< timotei> s/pipelines/pipelined
20110413 19:57:18< Xenmen> timotei: Pretty much, and we had to use it at SFU for a hardware design course.
20110413 19:57:26< timotei> and... I've missed a signal. damn
20110413 19:57:29< Xenmen> Drives me nuts! I'm no engineer
20110413 19:58:00< Xenmen> On the upside, it's helped me change my design process in general.
20110413 19:58:40< Xenmen> timotei: by the way, do you know if any of the Wesnoth factions currently have a unit vaguely like what I described?   D:
20110413 19:58:58< timotei> Xenmen: but what are you?
20110413 19:59:05< zookeeper> zaroth, i doubt there's any objections to the idea as long as the MP devs don't mind the ability to set advancements in advance, and i'm not sure if they would.
20110413 19:59:31< timotei> Xenmen: I'm not that much in designing wesnoth UMC. You may want to ask zookeeper instead.
20110413 20:00:11< zaroth> zookeeper: that's why I'm asking, thanks for confirming that you're still interested
20110413 20:01:03< Xenmen> zookeeper: Have "multi-part units" been implemented yet?   D:   I haven't seen any in-game yet...
20110413 20:01:27< boucman> Xenmen: nope...
20110413 20:01:30< Xenmen> zookeeper: I don't mean units that advance with xp, obviously that's in already...
20110413 20:01:51< Xenmen> How's that sound for part of my GSoC proposal?
20110413 20:02:03< zookeeper> what's a multi-part unit?
20110413 20:02:08 * zookeeper is afk for a while
20110413 20:02:51< Xenmen> Say you've got a mounted archer, and it's health is low. When that mounted archer gets killed, there's a chance the archer will dismount and become an archer unit (not necessarily with full health).
20110413 20:03:03< Xenmen> Or you have a cannoneer team.
20110413 20:03:22< Xenmen> There's a chance, whenever they're attacked, that one member of the team will be picked off instead of a general hp loss.
20110413 20:03:28< Xenmen> when that happens, the unit stats change.
20110413 20:04:09< Xenmen> It seems pretty cool, but it might fundamentally change the way the game is played for factions with those units...
20110413 20:04:15< Xenmen> it'd make balancing trickier too
20110413 20:04:19-!- eleazzaar [~jbjerk@ppp-70-226-207-172.dsl.spfdil.ameritech.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110413 20:04:32< Xenmen> but that'd be really, really cool. In my mind.   D:
20110413 20:04:34< zaroth> Xenmen: I'm fairly sure that the answer you hear will be "that already can be done in WML ;-)" and link to http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=1158 , idea 30 ;-)
20110413 20:04:41< Xenmen> DX
20110413 20:04:49 * Xenmen loading
20110413 20:05:04< Xenmen> zaroth: thanks for the link
20110413 20:05:12< zaroth> you're welcome
20110413 20:05:32< Gambit> Yeah.
20110413 20:05:38-!- Grimling [~FKint@91.181.52.59] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110413 20:09:51< Xenmen> hrm...
20110413 20:10:35< Xenmen> 'CABD'
20110413 20:10:39< Xenmen> what is this...
20110413 20:10:54< Gambit> Can already been done.
20110413 20:10:55< Crendgrim> Xenmen: Can Already Be Done
20110413 20:11:01< Xenmen> Ah
20110413 20:11:17< Crendgrim> Xenmen: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/WesnothAcronyms
20110413 20:11:26< Xenmen> Crendgrim: danke
20110413 20:11:30< Gambit> Generally used when someone requests an engine feature that they could actually do in WML
20110413 20:13:07< Crendgrim> BFWTOSGWRHAOAE.
20110413 20:14:03-!- Crab_ [~Crab@wesnoth/developer/crab] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110413 20:14:13< fendrin> hi Crab_
20110413 20:14:22< Crab_> hi, fendrin
20110413 20:14:40< Xenmen> Crab: welcome!   :D   could we have a talk about mp improvements?
20110413 20:15:55< Xenmen> I'm having a hard time coming up with something that isn't covered by WML
20110413 20:16:46< Gambit> Xenmen: Socket programming
20110413 20:17:13< Crab_> Xenmen: yes, I'll be here for a while, we can talk
20110413 20:17:18< Xenmen> Gambit: is there a need for adding that?   :P
20110413 20:17:36< Xenmen> Crab_: Thank-you
20110413 20:17:45< Gambit> Xenmen: How else will I make an IRC bot in WML?
20110413 20:18:31< Xenmen> Crab_: on topic, Gambit's suggestion just now sounds rather interesting   D:
20110413 20:19:03< Xenmen> it wouldn't actually require more sockets
20110413 20:19:14< Xenmen> just a hook into the built-in chat
20110413 20:19:37< Crab_> Gambit: to make an IRC bot in WML, you can launch irssi and feed wesnoth's stderr into its stdin (with a filter in between), the use lua to output stuff into irssi console :)
20110413 20:19:48< Xenmen> Gambit: oh, wait... I see what you're saying now   XD
20110413 20:19:50< Crab_> Gambit: joking, of course.
20110413 20:19:57< Gambit> Crab_: Brilliant!
20110413 20:19:59< Xenmen> an interesting joke nonetheless
20110413 20:20:10< Gambit> Haha
20110413 20:20:17< Xenmen> and
20110413 20:20:28< Xenmen> Crab_: goodness, that's brilliantly horrifying   XD
20110413 20:21:01< Xenmen> it's like building a robot out of sneakers, lemons, and copper wire
20110413 20:21:21< zaroth> the horrifying part would be when the WML would start recruiting troll whelps on the channel
20110413 20:21:45< Xenmen> zaroth: *clap*clap*   :B
20110413 20:22:01< Gambit> Crab_: You've finally given me the answer actually.
20110413 20:22:08< Gambit> Just this weekend I wrote an API for Gambot.
20110413 20:22:21< Gambit> It would be so trivial now.
20110413 20:22:33< Xenmen> Crab_: *Re-reviewing WML to look for limitations so I can ask better questions*
20110413 20:22:37< Gambit> Instead of reading the stdout from the message processing perl script, I'll just read it from Wesnoth.
20110413 20:22:51< Gambit> Anyway I'll stop derailing the channel now :P see you all later
20110413 20:23:01< Xenmen> Offhand though, are there any spots where WML is weak right now?
20110413 20:23:08< Xenmen> Gambit: See ya!   :P
20110413 20:23:27< zaroth> Xenmen: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/FutureWML (may be outdated, though)
20110413 20:23:38< Crab_> Xenmen: yes, there is a point of weakness in in that part of the process where we get the WML in the first place
20110413 20:23:52< fendrin> Xenmen: Filtering for [item] locations.
20110413 20:24:17< fendrin> Xenmen: Filtering recruit/recall lists per leader.
20110413 20:24:26< Xenmen> Ah; parsing issues
20110413 20:24:29< Crab_> Xenmen: i.e., once we get WML config, it's all good, but there are places where we need to parametrize the things before getting the WML
20110413 20:24:48< Crab_> Xenmen: or, if you're not asking about MP features in particular, I think it's hard to control the GUI from WML
20110413 20:25:35< Xenmen> I'm not too picky about doing multiplayer improvements over general improvements
20110413 20:25:52< Xenmen> I almost exclusively play sp myself anyways   :/
20110413 20:27:28< Xenmen> Crab_: what do you mean by 'parametrize"?
20110413 20:29:06< Crab_> Xenmen: we need to load the right files, with the right preprocessor defines
20110413 20:29:25< Crab_> Xenmen: moreover, we need to ensure that all the players get the correct sides and recall lists and gold
20110413 20:29:41< Crab_> and we need to ensure that it works if scenarios are changed
20110413 20:29:53< Xenmen> Can't that be done with a hash?
20110413 20:29:58< Crab_> it kinda works, but still it fails if we want to change things in between
20110413 20:30:10< Crab_> 'with a hash' ?
20110413 20:30:25< Xenmen> yup; a hash of the WML file for the level
20110413 20:30:35< Xenmen> each client sends it to the host
20110413 20:30:52< Xenmen> it's better than checking every value
20110413 20:31:10< fendrin> checksum
20110413 20:31:15< Xenmen> fendrin: yes
20110413 20:31:34< Crab_> Xenmen: the level is created by the host
20110413 20:31:35< Xenmen> Pardon my occasional hiccup in terminology
20110413 20:31:40< Crab_> the host sends it to others, then
20110413 20:31:46< Qbunia_> Crab_: hi, can u tell me what for is recruitment_ignore_bad_movement and recruitment_ignore_bad_combat?
20110413 20:32:03< Crab_> but before that happens, the host and the others can modify the players/sides/starting stuff parameters
20110413 20:32:09< Crab_> and here we have low control over things
20110413 20:32:16< Qbunia_> i know that is to filter recuriments for AI but it dosent work property 
20110413 20:32:45< Xenmen> but AFTER the level is sent; then the power to modify those things is kaputsky; that's not implemented
20110413 20:32:46< Crab_> Qbunia_: for default ai recruitment, if a parameter is set to yes, then the AI will not ignore units which fail 'can I fight well on this map?' or 'can I move well on this map' checks.
20110413 20:32:50< Qbunia_> i found a bug note on gna where in certain scenario AI recruits only 1 unit if those 2 parameters are yes 
20110413 20:33:01-!- kodaway [~koda@lvcc-66-78-205-2.smartcity.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
20110413 20:33:12< Crab_> Qbunia_: this is a feature.
20110413 20:33:19< Qbunia_> Crab_: ah ... k 
20110413 20:33:42< Crab_> Qbunia_: if we don't tell the AI what it is supposed to recruit, we should accept the fact that it might think that some unit is bad.
20110413 20:33:54< Qbunia_> yes i know 
20110413 20:34:06< Crab_> Qbunia_: if it things stupid things, that the thought process can/should be fixed
20110413 20:34:18< Crab_> but there's nothing wrong with the ignore_... parameters being yes.
20110413 20:34:35< Crab_> there are wrong things, maybe, in movement/combat evaluation routines.
20110413 20:34:43< Crab_> i.e., why they think that some unit is bad ?
20110413 20:35:23< Qbunia_> Crab_: on Some campaign with dwarfs called Mine something AI recruit knights
20110413 20:35:40< Qbunia_> its because there are plenty of villages not too far and enemy is also quite close 
20110413 20:36:02< Qbunia_> and ofc knights are good warriors so i think it works good
20110413 20:36:29< Xenmen> Crab_: So it's necessary to implement internal events for changing those values on the fly...
20110413 20:36:45< Xenmen> recruit lists et all
20110413 20:37:28< Xenmen> for changes made while in the lobby
20110413 20:38:39< Crab_> Xenmen: yes, like that
20110413 20:38:55< Crab_> Xenmen: we should have more clean code which deals with those things and allows us to play games like that
20110413 20:39:22< Xenmen> instead of resending the entire level each time a change is made, and reparsing it
20110413 20:39:33< Xenmen> which is what currently happens
20110413 20:39:35< Crab_> i.e. , play 1 scenario in SP, then play next one in MP, then play next one in MP with same people, then find another person for next scenario, then let each player play his own separate SP scenario, then join in for MP, ....
20110413 20:40:02< Crab_> no, it's more like 'allow the game to change type at scenario change, and before scenario begins'
20110413 20:40:30< Xenmen> oh boy
20110413 20:40:34< Xenmen> I like that
20110413 20:40:51< Xenmen> that's a bit hard
20110413 20:41:13< Xenmen> that'll need a lot of little changes all over the codebase
20110413 20:41:17< zaroth> Crab_: erm... I see some problems with joining two people's SP savegames ;-)
20110413 20:41:22< Xenmen> :B
20110413 20:41:40< fendrin> I don't get what you guys are talking about.
20110413 20:41:56< Xenmen> fendrin: worlds within worlds
20110413 20:41:57< zaroth> that's like creating another continuity...
20110413 20:42:04< Xenmen> fendrin: and portals between worlds
20110413 20:42:07< Crab_> zaroth: if a campaign allows for that and contains WML to handle the merge, it's possible
20110413 20:42:13< Xenmen> it's like Minecraft's portals
20110413 20:42:22< Xenmen> eventually, you'll be able to travel between servers with those portals
20110413 20:42:36< Xenmen> imagine a game where different servers are connected IN-GAME
20110413 20:42:37< Xenmen> :D
20110413 20:42:41 * zaroth scratches his head
20110413 20:42:54< Xenmen> Crab_ is proposing something similar, except in an sp/mp case
20110413 20:42:58< Xenmen> instead of server/server case
20110413 20:43:07< Xenmen> persistence between the sp and mp experience
20110413 20:43:16< Xenmen> instead of persistence between different servers
20110413 20:43:28< Crab_> zaroth: i.e., remember team builder? each player comes with his own player config, thus has its own recall list
20110413 20:43:40< Crab_> zaroth: and that player config came from scenario config
20110413 20:44:03< Crab_> zaroth: and, just before that scenario config was  determined, all the players were at the 'create mp game' screen
20110413 20:44:18< Xenmen> Crab_: teambuilder... is that still implemented somewhere?
20110413 20:44:22< Crab_> zaroth: so, potentially, each of the players might had selected a savegame to take 'interesting stuff' from
20110413 20:44:30< Xenmen> Crab_: as a debug feature mayhaps?
20110413 20:44:42< Crab_> Xenmen: i'm about the code which creates team objects and populates them
20110413 20:44:58< Xenmen> Crab_: roger roger
20110413 20:45:02< Crab_> Xenmen: you're probably talking about something else with  a similar name
20110413 20:45:14< Xenmen> I see
20110413 20:45:28< Crab_> zaroth: ie., if we allow dropbox parameters, we can allow 'let each player select a save' parameter, as well.
20110413 20:45:34 * Xenmen is going to pace the floor a bit and think about this...
20110413 20:45:39-!- Sytyi [~chatzilla@197-52-133-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110413 20:48:03< zaroth> Crab_: well, now you told that, yes, it could be possible to extract sides information from different saves
20110413 20:48:38-!- Sytyi [~chatzilla@197-52-133-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20110413 20:49:08< Crab_> zaroth: what is needed for that to work is for a scenario to have a section which is parsed before game starts
20110413 20:49:39< Crab_> zaroth: and, usually, scenario_metadata is a good place to put it.
20110413 20:49:41< zaroth> however, I think that the usecase is much smaller than for the simple parameters thing, and I'm not sure if it's worth the effort...
20110413 20:50:02< Crab_> zaroth: I think that the design should allow for that, even if there's no implementation
20110413 20:50:16< Crab_> zaroth: then, someday, someone will come and do a quick hack, and it'll work)
20110413 20:50:50< zaroth> oh, if you meant from the open-minded design point of view, then I agree :-)
20110413 20:51:26< zaroth> Crab_: did you read irc log? I thought of one thing that SP has and MP doesn't and posted it on IRC with your name
20110413 20:51:49-!- rigved [~rigved@116.72.163.243] has left #wesnoth-dev []
20110413 20:51:54< Crab_> zaroth: all we need to do, btw, is to syncronize the start-of-scenario save between players and put it into a variable - then wml would be able to do the rest
20110413 20:51:57< zaroth> some search on the forums revealed a well-thought solution :-)
20110413 20:52:01< Crab_> zaroth: except for a few things )
20110413 20:52:18< Crab_> zaroth: will check now
20110413 20:53:13< Crab_> Xenmen: any other questions ?
20110413 20:56:14 * Xenmen returns...\
20110413 20:56:24-!- champ [~champ@125.33.216.121] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110413 20:56:39< Crab_> zaroth: you're about 'pick your promotion in advance' stuff ?
20110413 20:56:56< zaroth> Crab_: yeah
20110413 20:57:05-!- Grimling [~FKint@91.181.52.59] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
20110413 20:57:09< zaroth> I thought about simply storing it within unit, since WML already supports that
20110413 20:57:43< zaroth> (of course, that way, changes of names and advancements would only be allowed during your turn to avoid OOS)
20110413 20:57:43< Crab_> zaroth: supports. but, actually, you can allow the person to select it if the other player doesn't mind to wait.
20110413 20:57:47< Xenmen> Crab_: I'm still chewing on the implications
20110413 20:58:11< Crab_> zaroth: there's (since summer 2010) code to sync choices in MP
20110413 20:58:26< Crab_> zaroth: for example, AI doesn't mind to wait
20110413 20:58:27< boucman> hmm, I never though of leveling wrt WB...
20110413 20:58:34< Xenmen> Crab_: Like you said though, it's not too hard to implement form this point, given what's already been added
20110413 20:58:50< Crab_> zaroth: in coop games, your ally might not mind to wait while you select on AIs turn, too
20110413 20:59:01< Xenmen> from a player's view though, it'd be an exciting addition
20110413 20:59:19< zaroth> Crab_: As far as I read the discussions on forum, the developers are against waiting... And it'd include a long if...
20110413 20:59:50< Crab_> zaroth: in SP, they are not against waiting, I believe.
20110413 21:00:17< Crab_> zaroth: so, this is a conditional wait. we can just change the condition from if (SP) to something else
20110413 21:00:30< zaroth> hmm... so if(no_networked_sides)
20110413 21:00:52< zaroth> since we can't reliably tell if an opponent over the network is AI or not
20110413 21:01:01< Crab_> zaroth: yes, a good approximation
20110413 21:01:09< Crab_> zaroth: or you can make it a game option
20110413 21:01:32< Crab_> zaroth: i.e., players in coop campaigns might prefer to have the choice.
20110413 21:02:05< Crab_> zaroth: and since we are creating a framework for options anyway...
20110413 21:02:10< zaroth> I can't believe a developer is proposing that, isn't wesnoth following OAB philosophy ? ;-)
20110413 21:02:38< zaroth> but yes, it could easily be settable as an option
20110413 21:02:44< Crab_> zaroth: this is not a wesnoth option
20110413 21:02:56< Crab_> zaroth: this is to be a game option. if a WML author wants it to be allowed.
20110413 21:03:13< Crab_> zaroth: treat it like your 'earthquakes?' option.
20110413 21:04:05< Crab_> zaroth: since WML is used to modify the game rules, in many places, it's ok to allow WML to modify another game rule
20110413 21:04:23< Crab_> zaroth: so a WML author will be able to say if the option is "on", "off", or "player selectable"
20110413 21:05:02< Crab_> zaroth: you can look at it from another angle:
20110413 21:05:12< Crab_> zaroth: imagine we had a on_levelup callback
20110413 21:05:26< Crab_> zaroth: which would, by default, select a random promotion
20110413 21:05:55< Crab_> zaroth: and it would be ok to add a WML way to change it to something else like 'select a preset promotion' or 'pop up a dialog to select promotion'
20110413 21:06:08< Xenmen> that would be useful
20110413 21:06:19< Crab_> with reasonable defaults
20110413 21:07:59< Xenmen> The PythonAI experiment...
20110413 21:08:07< Xenmen> Was that modeled on Civ4's implementation at all?
20110413 21:08:28< Crab_> Xenmen: don't know. the experiment was ok, it only was rolled back due to security issues.
20110413 21:08:33-!- shadowm_laptop [ignacio@wesnoth/developer/shadowmaster] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110413 21:09:04< Xenmen> Ah; yes, that would be an issue
20110413 21:09:12-!- sytyi [~chatzilla@197-52-133-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110413 21:10:36< Xenmen> So then
20110413 21:10:51< Xenmen> GUI hooks for new WML tags
20110413 21:11:11< Xenmen> given how well structured the GUI code is, I'm surprised that's not done already
20110413 21:11:33< Xenmen> I can see it already; right click a village and select production options!
20110413 21:11:40-!- koda|work [~koda@lvcc-66-78-205-2.smartcity.com] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110413 21:11:41< Xenmen> the village operates a goldmine
20110413 21:11:55< Xenmen> you can either have them give you 10 gold every turn
20110413 21:12:02< Xenmen> or you can receive a unit every turn
20110413 21:12:07< Xenmen> right click the village
20110413 21:12:10< Xenmen> there is a popup
20110413 21:12:16< Xenmen> and you can select your output
20110413 21:12:20< Xenmen> that can all be WML definable
20110413 21:13:31< Xenmen> Crab_: This seems like it'd be an extension of events
20110413 21:14:27< Crab_> Xenmen: have you played, say, A new land ?
20110413 21:14:35< Crab_> Xenmen: it's one of mainline scenarios
20110413 21:14:39< Xenmen> Some time back, but not recently
20110413 21:14:44< Xenmen> maybe a year ago
20110413 21:14:52< Xenmen> yes, I definitely played that one
20110413 21:14:55< Crab_> Xenmen: and it has that 'structures and units with a right-click menu ' thing already
20110413 21:15:41< Xenmen> I don't remember that bit...   :X
20110413 21:15:59< Crab_> check [set_menu_item]
20110413 21:16:13< Xenmen> set_menu_item...
20110413 21:16:17< Crab_> it's a WML tag to add things to right-click menu
20110413 21:16:23-!- fendrin [~fabi@88-134-182-56-dynip.superkabel.de] has left #wesnoth-dev ["Konversation terminated!"]
20110413 21:17:00-!- fendrin [~fabi@88-134-182-56-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110413 21:17:09< Xenmen> http://wiki.wesnoth.org/InterfaceActionsWML#.5Bset_menu_item.5D_.28SVN_trunk_only.29
20110413 21:20:07-!- grigoryj [~javadyan@46.70.91.93] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110413 21:20:42< Xenmen> there's isn't too much utility for generic widget hooks in wml
20110413 21:20:48-!- yann [~dwitch@nan92-1-81-57-214-146.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
20110413 21:20:57< Xenmen> at least, nothing mainstream
20110413 21:21:10< Crab_> Xenmen: yes. and usually those things are better to be coded in lua
20110413 21:21:36< Crab_> Xenmen: because, even if simple case of [message] dialog with [option]s, it's quite hard to pass state around
20110413 21:21:38< Xenmen> the few things I can think of would be for very... 'unique' kinds of campaigns
20110413 21:22:41-!- Disruption [~Disruptio@185.Red-81-34-191.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
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20110413 21:24:29< grigoryj> wesbot, seen mordante
20110413 21:24:29< wesbot> grigoryj: The person with the nick mordante last spoke 21h 20m ago.  21h 15m ago was here and on the channel #wesnoth-de with the message: Quit: Leaving
20110413 21:24:56< Xenmen> mordante was on last night, I saw him   D:
20110413 21:25:09< Xenmen> just 15 hours ago
20110413 21:25:28< Xenmen> temporal distortion
20110413 21:25:39< Xenmen> time mechanics
20110413 21:25:55< Xenmen> Crab_: in-game time travel
20110413 21:26:07< Xenmen> finally, a good use for all that replay data   :D
20110413 21:26:25< Disruption> hi Devs! :)
20110413 21:26:27< Xenmen> not the best idea though
20110413 21:26:33< Xenmen> Disruption: Greetings sailor!
20110413 21:27:18< Crab_> hi, Disruption
20110413 21:27:31< Xenmen> Crab_: what's kept in campaign metadata?
20110413 21:27:35< boucman> hey Disruption
20110413 21:27:41< boucman> just commented on your patch
20110413 21:27:48< Disruption> hi Xenmen, Crab_ and boucman :)
20110413 21:27:49-!- Mussious [~kamil@dfo154.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat]
20110413 21:27:57< Disruption> yes, I read that, but I don't know how to add the changelog thingie :$
20110413 21:28:07< Crab_> Xenmen: open up and see :) stuff to display on campaign selection screen, plus credits plus campaign define.
20110413 21:28:25< Xenmen> :E   I'm a slow reader, but okay...
20110413 21:28:28< Xenmen> fair enough
20110413 21:28:30< Crab_> Disruption: just open 'changelog' file, see what's in it, and modify it
20110413 21:28:39< Crab_> Disruption: it is in the checkout root
20110413 21:28:45< Disruption> Oh, I thought I had to add something to the patch file
20110413 21:28:58< boucman> same thing with about.cfg in data
20110413 21:29:09< Disruption> ok, so I should submit another comment with about.cfg and changelog files modified?
20110413 21:29:19< boucman> then, from the checkout root, regenerate the patch with svn diff, it should contain the changes for all three files
20110413 21:29:26< Disruption> oh, ok :)
20110413 21:29:28< boucman> yes
20110413 21:29:46< Disruption> I have to update first, as there are probably changes so far :)
20110413 21:31:14< Disruption> for the next patches that I may submit, I only have to change changelog and the patched files right? About.cfg will already contain me, so no need to add me again I suppose =3
20110413 21:31:24< Xenmen> Ctrl+F "metadata" reveals nothing...   7000 lines of savegame data
20110413 21:32:42< Crab_> Xenmen: data/campaigns/.../_main.cfg
20110413 21:32:56< Crab_> the 'main' file of each campaign
20110413 21:33:02< grigoryj> Guys, I want to make an announcement. After some consideration I have decided to withdraw my GSoC application. After all, I have a job and it will definitely make it hard for me to participate successfully. 
20110413 21:33:02< grigoryj> I wanted to do a great job on my would-be gsoc project, but I am afraid, that taking my other responsibilities into account, it will not be possible. I feel that it is unfair to potentially rob people who have more time to do it, of their chance. 
20110413 21:33:11< grigoryj> I'm sorry about all this. I'd really like to participate, but I prefer to be realistic about it - I'd need 48 hours in a day to do equally well both at my job and at gsoc. 
20110413 21:33:11< grigoryj> It was great communicating with you guys.
20110413 21:33:58< Xenmen> grigoryj: good luck with work   D:
20110413 21:34:04-!- georgesebastian [~georgeSeb@unaffiliated/georgesebastian] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
20110413 21:34:08< grigoryj> :)
20110413 21:34:15< Crab_> grigoryj: thanks for honesty. note that, with open source, it's possible to join in and have fun at any moment. so, if you feel that you want to hack something around, you're always welcome.
20110413 21:34:18< boucman> grigoryj: yes, good luck and thx for the honest
20110413 21:34:31-!- GeorgeSebastian [~georgeSeb@unaffiliated/georgesebastian] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110413 21:37:07< Xenmen> Crab_: There's no metadata tag in the main.cfg for HttT or TSG, or the other campaigns I've checked so far
20110413 21:37:21< Crab_> Xenmen: [campaign] tag contains the metadata
20110413 21:37:32< Xenmen> campaign == metadata
20110413 21:37:36< Xenmen> Hrm
20110413 21:38:04< Crab_> Xenmen: for SP, yes
20110413 21:38:06< sytyi> grigoryj: thanks for honesty. Good luck! 
20110413 21:38:20< Crab_> Xenmen: for MP, there's no such thing atm
20110413 21:39:37< Xenmen> zaroth's patch involved a special [mp
20110413 21:39:42< grigoryj> sytyi: Good luck to you too. hope your proposal will be accepted and you'll have success :)
20110413 21:39:42< Xenmen> *[mp] tag
20110413 21:40:07< sytyi> grigoryj: thanks a lot :)
20110413 21:41:03< Xenmen> but
20110413 21:41:11< Xenmen> hrm
20110413 21:42:43< Xenmen> this is problematic
20110413 21:42:55< Xenmen> making coop campaigns
20110413 21:43:16< Disruption> boucman: I updated, remodified menu_events.cpp, modified about.cfg to contain me, and opened changelog file
20110413 21:43:16< Xenmen> and then allowing a user to drop out
20110413 21:43:22< Xenmen> and then for the game to continue
20110413 21:43:32< Xenmen> and then for that same user, or another
20110413 21:43:33< Disruption> but I don't exactly know how to add the new info to the changelog file
20110413 21:43:36< Xenmen> to later join in again
20110413 21:43:40< Xenmen> at a later point in the campaign
20110413 21:44:01< Disruption> boucman: Should I add a new line to the "miscelaneous and bugfixes" part in 1.9.5+svn?
20110413 21:44:13< boucman> yes, exactly
20110413 21:44:15< Xenmen> after the person left has played a few levels further in sp mode, or peronS left have played together a bit further in mp mode
20110413 21:44:15< Disruption> ok
20110413 21:45:27< Xenmen> And building an epic campaign does not a GSoC proposal make...   X]
20110413 21:45:39< Xenmen> nor should it be allowed to.
20110413 21:45:41< Xenmen> hrm
20110413 21:46:27-!- eoc` [~eoc@pD9560C8B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110413 21:46:36< Xenmen> but now I see how Zaroth got the difficulty working so quickly
20110413 21:46:54< Xenmen> the campaign's main.cfg has the difficulty
20110413 21:47:00< Xenmen> but
20110413 21:47:03< zaroth> Xenmen: I wrote there it's a hack ;-)
20110413 21:47:10< Xenmen> well yes   XD
20110413 21:47:15< Xenmen> but a clever one and a FAST one
20110413 21:47:24< Xenmen> I am trying to catch up and figure out how
20110413 21:47:32< Xenmen> because I read very slowly
20110413 21:47:40< Disruption> boucman: I just submitted the new patch file, for the 3 files together
20110413 21:47:46< Xenmen> I find it hard to understand any piece of a program without understanding it all
20110413 21:47:46< Disruption> boucman: I hope it's ok ^^
20110413 21:48:07< boucman> Disruption: i'll check it right away
20110413 21:48:44-!- Crab_ [~Crab@wesnoth/developer/crab] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org]
20110413 21:48:44< Disruption> boucman: Ok, no hurries :)
20110413 21:49:23-!- eoc [~eoc@pD95604EC.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
20110413 21:49:49< Disruption> I hope I wrote the about thing and the changelog thing correctly
20110413 21:50:33< Xenmen> gah, the patch file is long
20110413 21:50:52< Xenmen> 11k lines
20110413 21:50:56< Xenmen> :E
20110413 21:51:02< Xenmen> zaroth: what exactly did you modify, and where?
20110413 21:51:39< zaroth> Xenmen: it's so long because I removed all LoW scenarios but first, because they got in the way
20110413 21:52:03< zaroth> I also modified the first one to allow faster testing if I did it right already or do I need to hack more
20110413 21:52:50-!- eoc` is now known as eoc
20110413 21:53:08< CIA-82> boucman * r49190 /trunk/ (changelog data/core/about.cfg src/menu_events.cpp): apply patch2623 by Disruption : fix bug 17985 (leaders stay hiddent in status table when discovered)
20110413 21:54:18< Disruption> awwww, my first Patch
20110413 21:54:37< Disruption> ^w^
20110413 21:54:56< Disruption> (Yep, it seems stupid, but I'm very happy for it =D)
20110413 21:55:33< Xenmen> Disruption: Congrats!   XD
20110413 21:55:42< zaroth> Disruption: it's by no means stupid, I'm happy for you as well, may your contributions to Wesnoth be long and fruitful ;-)
20110413 21:55:45< Xenmen> not stupid at all; it's a mileston
20110413 21:55:47< Xenmen> *milestone
20110413 21:55:56 * boucman remembers his first patch
20110413 21:55:59< boucman> long time ago....
20110413 21:56:06< zaroth> in a far far galaxy...
20110413 21:56:09< Xenmen> back in 1952
20110413 21:56:12< boucman> :P
20110413 21:56:25< Xenmen> back when Wesnoth was written in Fortran
20110413 21:56:36< Xenmen> before Fortran was Fortran
20110413 21:56:43< boucman> in ASSEMBLY
20110413 21:56:51< boucman> and we had to compile our code uphill
20110413 21:56:56< boucman> BOTH WAYS !!!
20110413 21:57:37< timotei> so WML is assembly upgraded? xD
20110413 21:57:51< boucman> hehe
20110413 21:57:58< Xenmen> WML is the reason Unicode was invented   :D
20110413 21:58:31< Xenmen> translation
20110413 21:58:36 * Nephro says Hi to boucman 
20110413 21:58:37< Xenmen> the love must be shared
20110413 21:58:43-!- eoc [~eoc@pD9560C8B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
20110413 21:58:44 * Xenmen jumps
20110413 21:58:51< Xenmen> Nephro: didn't see you there   :E
20110413 21:59:57< timotei> Xenmen: lol. You are easily distracted xD
20110413 22:00:07< CIA-82> espreon * r49191 /trunk/data/core/about.cfg: Corrected name with permission from Disruption.
20110413 22:00:24< timotei> wow, it's so fun here
20110413 22:01:10< Xenmen> timotei: I've spent the majority of my time studying patterns
20110413 22:01:28< Xenmen> every little unanticipated event is indicative of something I do not yet understand
20110413 22:01:37< timotei> wut?
20110413 22:01:39< Xenmen> so I am highly responsive to everything
20110413 22:01:40< Xenmen> :D
20110413 22:02:04< Xenmen> long story short, I try to keep my model of the universe up-to-date
20110413 22:02:08< Xenmen> my mental model
20110413 22:02:15< Xenmen> I can't function otherwise
20110413 22:02:21< Xenmen> a large part of that is my human AI model
20110413 22:02:59< Xenmen> I do not know how to relate my comments to my prior actions and your surprise at them in a quick manner
20110413 22:03:00< Xenmen> :X
20110413 22:03:09< grigoryj> Xenmen is a walking neural network :D
20110413 22:03:14< Xenmen> yes
20110413 22:03:15< timotei> lol
20110413 22:03:19< Xenmen> well, we all are
20110413 22:03:21< timotei> and I'm a pipelined mips xD
20110413 22:03:36< grigoryj> perceptron :)
20110413 22:04:03< grigoryj> or not, perceptrons are too simple for humans
20110413 22:04:35< Xenmen> I'm beginning to wonder if I'm ill-suited for contributions to Wesnoth's codebase, as opposed to creating a total-conversion campaign for it
20110413 22:04:45< Xenmen> since every idea I'm coming up with is... un-Wesnoth like
20110413 22:05:49< Xenmen> at least
20110413 22:05:58< Xenmen> most of them would require a new faction
20110413 22:06:05< Xenmen> a magic-based faction
20110413 22:06:27 * Xenmen must go for a moment
20110413 22:07:46 * Xenmen returns
20110413 22:07:57< Disruption> sounds like a B movie
20110413 22:08:18< Disruption> by the way, that kind of statements are written with something like /me or the likes of it?
20110413 22:08:30< Xenmen> Less expensive to produce than an A movie, more reputable than a C movie   :D
20110413 22:08:31< Xenmen> and yes
20110413 22:08:33< timotei> Disruption: yes
20110413 22:08:35< Xenmen> "/me"
20110413 22:08:42< Xenmen> google "IRC Commands"
20110413 22:09:22< Xenmen> So then
20110413 22:09:27< Xenmen> WML improvements
20110413 22:09:29< Xenmen> D:
20110413 22:09:36< Xenmen> that seems to be a great spot for GSoC
20110413 22:09:47< Xenmen> there's lots that needs updating
20110413 22:10:19< Xenmen> also: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/WesnothPhilosophy
20110413 22:11:34-!- eoc [~eoc@pD9560E3A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110413 22:11:58< Xenmen> hrm
20110413 22:12:52< Xenmen> is there any interest in drop-in multiplayer?
20110413 22:13:13< Xenmen> er, let me explain
20110413 22:13:57< Xenmen> all singleplayer campaigns are instead run on the wesnoth server instead of client, like other games do
20110413 22:14:07-!- negusnyul [~negusnyul@dsl54020B36.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20110413 22:14:27< Xenmen> coop enabled campaigns could have the option
20110413 22:14:31< Xenmen> that
20110413 22:14:57< Xenmen> "Oh look a friend has direct-IPed you and would like to join!   :D   Will you let him? y/n"
20110413 22:15:13< Xenmen> and then said friend picks an ally faction and takes control
20110413 22:15:17< Xenmen> and game continues
20110413 22:15:18< Xenmen> just like that
20110413 22:15:36< Xenmen> OH BUT WHAT IF YOU NEED TO LEAVE THEN?   D:
20110413 22:15:42< Xenmen> you are host; game ends when you leave
20110413 22:15:56< Disruption> are you talking to yourself, or to all of us? :D
20110413 22:15:59< Xenmen> why not have the server migrate to a random client
20110413 22:16:15< Xenmen> Disruption: to the air, which consists of your collective intellect   8]
20110413 22:16:32< Xenmen> in the hopes that there will be a response at some point
20110413 22:16:33< Xenmen> and critique
20110413 22:16:45< Rhonda> Me considers it a braindump session, and usually such things produce interesting stuff.
20110413 22:16:55-!- mjs-de [~mjs-de@e183142195.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110413 22:17:06< Xenmen> Crab_'s persistence suggestion sparked my interest, and I think it can be expanded to do a lot more
20110413 22:17:25< Xenmen> Rhonda: that sounds about right, yup
20110413 22:17:44< Disruption> I'm ok with it, just wondering if it was actually that :)
20110413 22:18:13< Xenmen> all the development I've done before has been either solo, or with my best friend/coworker
20110413 22:18:28< Xenmen> every now and then we have feature-rants
20110413 22:18:40-!- grigoryj [~javadyan@46.70.91.93] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds]
20110413 22:18:51< Xenmen> and we tear them apart as we go
20110413 22:18:53< Xenmen> :D
20110413 22:18:59< Xenmen> it's natural selection, but for ideas
20110413 22:19:09< Xenmen> entire generations passing in moments
20110413 22:19:32< Xenmen> but yes; making singleplayer server-based
20110413 22:20:19< Xenmen> eg; Half-Life singleplayer still runs on a local server
20110413 22:20:37< Xenmen> the client is just interaction and display
20110413 22:20:50< Xenmen> right now, with Wesnoth's multiplayer
20110413 22:20:56< Xenmen> it's my understanding that each client
20110413 22:21:01< Xenmen> upon making an action
20110413 22:21:06< Xenmen> sends that action to the server
20110413 22:21:13< Xenmen> then the server does the damage calc et cetera
20110413 22:21:24< Xenmen> that goes on until turn is done
20110413 22:21:25-!- stikonas_ [~and@ctv-213-164-115-159.vinita.lt] has joined #wesnoth-dev
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20110413 22:21:35< Xenmen> and the the server propagates the results to the other clients
20110413 22:21:48< Xenmen> or maybe it's action-by-action
20110413 22:22:22< Xenmen> either way, singleplayer should probably run the same way; with a local server process that the client spawns and connects to
20110413 22:22:35< Xenmen> that'll make it easier to guarantee compatibility between SP/MP stuff
20110413 22:22:42< Xenmen> AND it'll allow for all this other cool jazz
20110413 22:22:52< Xenmen> drop-in multiplayer; I'm getting excited
20110413 22:23:22-!- stikonas [~and@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
20110413 22:23:28< Xenmen> source of idea: I was reading a developer interview about Halo3's networking implementation
20110413 22:23:42< Xenmen> It was bloody brilliant
20110413 22:24:04< Xenmen> I do not own an xbox, have not played that, but the networking...
20110413 22:24:11< Xenmen> I started foaming
20110413 22:24:25< Xenmen> you know what
20110413 22:24:28< Xenmen> animations
20110413 22:24:31< Xenmen> IDLE animations
20110413 22:24:36< Xenmen> could be events too
20110413 22:24:44< Xenmen> all managed by the server
20110413 22:24:47< Xenmen> but that'd be unecessary
20110413 22:24:49< Xenmen> bad idea
20110413 22:24:54< Xenmen> no need for that increased traffic
20110413 22:26:10< Xenmen> oh gosh, when did Crab leave?
20110413 22:26:15-!- vjoe [~vjoe@87.113.253.15] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110413 22:26:28< vjoe> hey!
20110413 22:26:36< Xenmen> vjoe: Greetings comrade!
20110413 22:26:39< timotei> hi vjoe 
20110413 22:26:52< timotei> Xenmen: he left long ago :P
20110413 22:26:57< timotei> while you were talking xD
20110413 22:27:04< Xenmen> X[
20110413 22:27:09< Xenmen> wesbot: seen Crab_
20110413 22:27:10< wesbot> Xenmen: The person with the nick Crab_ last spoke 48m 49s ago.  38m 26s ago they left with the message: Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org
20110413 22:27:11< timotei> kidding
20110413 22:27:21< Xenmen> 40 minutes ago
20110413 22:27:31< Xenmen> hrm
20110413 22:27:47< Xenmen> well, does drop-in multiplayer sound interesting to anyone else?   D:
20110413 22:27:56< vjoe> that's a warm welcome Xenmen 
20110413 22:27:56< vjoe> eheh
20110413 22:28:37< Xenmen> joe: In developer's channel, greeting utters you!
20110413 22:28:42< Xenmen> *vjoe   :E
20110413 22:30:43< Xenmen> fendrin: DROP-IN COOP MULTIPLAYER!   :D
20110413 22:30:53< Xenmen> fendrin: BE EXCITED!!!
20110413 22:31:33< Crendgrim> please don't cry oO everything's fine ...
20110413 22:32:07-!- epyon [~IceChat77@89-73-132-59.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
20110413 22:34:45< Xenmen> Crendgrim: thank-you...   (: [
20110413 22:35:04< Crendgrim> xD
--- Log opened Wed Apr 13 23:00:10 2011
20110413 23:00:28-!- lobby [~wesnoth@wesnoth/bot/lobby] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110413 23:00:28-!- Topic for #wesnoth-dev: Google Summer of Code: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SummerOfCodeIdeas | 199 bugs, 311 feature requests, 24 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
20110413 23:00:28-!- Topic set by wesbot [~wesbot@asteria.debian.or.at] [Wed Apr 13 12:59:27 2011]
20110413 23:00:28[Users #wesnoth-dev]
20110413 23:00:28[ 5EXACG1HJ      ] [ FishbaitHarry  ] [ mjs-de         ] 
20110413 23:00:28[ ABCD           ] [ fstltna        ] [ Nephro         ] 
20110413 23:00:28[ AI0867         ] [ Gambit         ] [ PetePorty      ] 
20110413 23:00:28[ apoi_          ] [ GeorgeSebastian] [ Qbunia_        ] 
20110413 23:00:28[ BfWEthnographer] [ Greywhind      ] [ Rhonda         ] 
20110413 23:00:28[ boucman        ] [ happygrue_     ] [ shadowm_laptop ] 
20110413 23:00:28[ champ          ] [ harbin         ] [ shadowmaster   ] 
20110413 23:00:28[ chris|         ] [ Ingmar         ] [ shikadibot     ] 
20110413 23:00:28[ CIA-82         ] [ isaac_         ] [ Sirp           ] 
20110413 23:00:28[ clanehin       ] [ Ivanovic       ] [ Smar           ] 
20110413 23:00:28[ crimson_penguin] [ iwaim___       ] [ stikonas_      ] 
20110413 23:00:28[ deekay         ] [ janebot        ] [ sytyi          ] 
20110413 23:00:28[ Disruption     ] [ knotwork       ] [ thespaceinvader] 
20110413 23:00:28[ dtiger         ] [ koan           ] [ Tigge          ] 
20110413 23:00:28[ eleazzaar      ] [ koda|work      ] [ Upthorn        ] 
20110413 23:00:28[ elias          ] [ lobby          ] [ vcap           ] 
20110413 23:00:28[ Elvish_Pillager] [ loonybot       ] [ vjoe           ] 
20110413 23:00:28[ eoc            ] [ loonycyborg    ] [ Vorpal         ] 
20110413 23:00:28[ erl            ] [ LordNasty      ] [ wesbot         ] 
20110413 23:00:28[ Espreon        ] [ Max20010       ] [ Xenmen         ] 
20110413 23:00:28[ esr            ] [ mcsmash        ] [ yann           ] 
20110413 23:00:28[ ettin_         ] [ MeccaGod       ] [ zaroth         ] 
20110413 23:00:28[ fendrin        ] [ MGoods|RangerM ] [ zookeeper      ] 
20110413 23:00:28-!- Irssi: #wesnoth-dev: Total of 69 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 69 normal]
20110413 23:00:35-!- Channel #wesnoth-dev created Tue Jan 27 06:28:41 2009
20110413 23:00:51< Xenmen> lobby: welcome back
20110413 23:01:11-!- Soliton [~Soliton@wesnoth/developer/soliton] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110413 23:02:20< shadowmaster> Xenmen: back up
20110413 23:02:26< Xenmen> :D   huzza!
20110413 23:02:31< Xenmen> shadowmaster: thank-you again
20110413 23:02:32-!- Irssi: Join to #wesnoth-dev was synced in 131 secs
20110413 23:03:01< shadowmaster> I didn't really do anything.
20110413 23:03:01< Xenmen> scheduled maintenance, sounds like
20110413 23:03:17< Xenmen> notification is still a nice friendly thing to do
20110413 23:03:25< shadowmaster> Uh, no, that was a completely unscheduled something.
20110413 23:05:26< Xenmen> by the way
20110413 23:05:34< shadowmaster> IIRC there's a problem with the server that apparently causes it to lock up indefinitely until rebooted by force.
20110413 23:06:10-!- BfWEthnographer [~BfWEthnog@151.76.128.52] has left #wesnoth-dev []
20110413 23:06:41< Xenmen> singleplayer server
20110413 23:06:56< Xenmen> enforcing a client-server relationship in singleplayer
20110413 23:07:12< Xenmen> I think this would help further development
20110413 23:07:44< Xenmen> I can see a couple potential problems
20110413 23:07:58< Xenmen> parsing WML
20110413 23:08:01< Xenmen> in particular
20110413 23:08:15< Xenmen> there might need to be a slight change in structure
20110413 23:08:43< Xenmen> certain things will pertain only to clients, and certain things only to the server (damage calc & such)
20110413 23:09:04< Xenmen> the server doesn't need to know what image/audio resources to load
20110413 23:09:23< Xenmen> and if strict client-server is to be enforced
20110413 23:09:35< Xenmen> then the client shouldn't be functioning so independently anymore
20110413 23:10:08< Xenmen> maybe, *maybe*, it would be good to reduce the client to a renderer for the server
20110413 23:10:18< Xenmen> and shift all the game logic server-side
20110413 23:10:32< Xenmen> this will fix the synchronized replay problem
20110413 23:11:07< Xenmen> on the other hand, it means if there's a sudden disconnect, there's no way for the disconnected user to get the replay
20110413 23:11:12< Xenmen> which is sad   :'[
20110413 23:11:24< Xenmen> however with drop-in MP that shouldn't be too big a deal
20110413 23:12:02< Xenmen> hrm
20110413 23:12:05< Xenmen> although
20110413 23:12:07-!- stikonas_ [~and@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
20110413 23:12:29< Xenmen> it might be best for the server to send all the server-relevant WML anyway
20110413 23:12:39< Xenmen> and then keep sending full updates to each client
20110413 23:12:40-!- zookeeper [~l@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has quit []
20110413 23:13:01< Xenmen> that will enable the auto-server-migration idea
20110413 23:13:14< Xenmen> at game start
20110413 23:13:21< Xenmen> server picks random client to be the emergency server
20110413 23:13:32< Xenmen> if the host leaves, that client will be the new host
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20110413 23:13:40< Xenmen> all other clients will dial that IP
20110413 23:13:49< Xenmen> as the server prenotified them which of them it would be
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20110413 23:14:10< Xenmen> or maybe all clients should have an IP list
20110413 23:14:29< Xenmen> that way they can each have a UDP socket listening and sending
20110413 23:14:37< Xenmen> and start a vote session
20110413 23:14:40< Xenmen> "who will be next host"
20110413 23:14:52< Xenmen> that way it won't be an issue if the emergency host and the current host leave
20110413 23:14:53< Xenmen> at the EXACT
20110413 23:14:55< Xenmen> SAME
20110413 23:14:55< Xenmen> TIME
20110413 23:15:02< Xenmen> because that could really screw over the other idea...
20110413 23:15:10< Xenmen> but yeah a UDP-run vote session
20110413 23:15:15< Xenmen> it'd be a quick fix
20110413 23:15:26< Xenmen> with a small wrapper
20110413 23:15:28< Xenmen> to make sure
20110413 23:15:37< Xenmen> that the packets DO in fact arrive
20110413 23:15:53< Xenmen> and then timeouts for each client
20110413 23:16:00< Xenmen> in-case their client isn't responding
20110413 23:16:07< Xenmen> and also a vote-of-non-confidence
20110413 23:16:12-!- dtiger [~dtiger@93.125.62.17] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20110413 23:16:13< Xenmen> incase a user just isn't voting on a new host
20110413 23:16:22< Xenmen> and the other users think he's holding them up on purpose
20110413 23:16:25< Xenmen> because he hasn't timed out
20110413 23:16:37< Xenmen> then they can vote on the vote window
20110413 23:16:41< Afan_> couldnt you just have a time on the vote?
20110413 23:16:48< Xenmen> well sure
20110413 23:16:51< Xenmen> hrm
20110413 23:17:05< Xenmen> that also works yes!   :D
20110413 23:17:17< Xenmen> and then
20110413 23:17:19< Xenmen> if it's a tie
20110413 23:17:25< Xenmen> the two machines
20110413 23:17:30< Xenmen> have a quick rock-paper-scissors
20110413 23:17:42< Xenmen> they each generate a random number and compare it; larger one wins.
20110413 23:17:46< Xenmen> or something to that effect
20110413 23:17:56< Xenmen> winner propogates the decision
20110413 23:18:01< Xenmen> creates server
20110413 23:18:05< Xenmen> keeps pinging the clients
20110413 23:18:14< Xenmen> to let them know "yeah I'm still alive don't give up yet"
20110413 23:18:21< Xenmen> because starting the server is pretty slow
20110413 23:18:31< Xenmen> and if THAT client, the new host, disconnects
20110413 23:18:37< Xenmen> then the process of voting happens again
20110413 23:18:39< Xenmen> because timeout
20110413 23:18:43< Xenmen> because of the pinging
20110413 23:18:51< Xenmen> aaaaand yeah it's sounding pretty good to me so far   D:
20110413 23:19:16< Xenmen> hrm
20110413 23:19:54< Xenmen> that's a long list of stuff happening
20110413 23:20:02< Xenmen> I will add to proposal
20110413 23:20:06< Xenmen> after running it past Crab
20110413 23:20:17< Xenmen> provided that he goes "   :D   "
20110413 23:20:31< Xenmen> fendrin: how's it sound to you so far?
20110413 23:20:42< Afan_> what is all of that for? is that for the persistent multiplayer thing?
20110413 23:20:43< Xenmen> provided that it's been interesting enough to warrant your attention   :E
20110413 23:20:52< Xenmen> well, yes, it's related to that
20110413 23:20:58< Xenmen> but also a general multiplayer improvement
20110413 23:21:06< Xenmen> it's more related to my drop-in multiplayer idea
20110413 23:21:15< Xenmen> which... is related to the persistent multiplayer so yes
20110413 23:21:16< Xenmen> :D
20110413 23:21:38< Afan_> drop-in multiplayer is good expecially with those annoying 1-2 hour RPGS where half the people leave in 30min
20110413 23:21:53< Xenmen> It happens so often...
20110413 23:22:02< Xenmen> It really irks me in RTS games too
20110413 23:22:11-!- boucman [~rosen@wesnoth/developer/boucman] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
20110413 23:22:13< Xenmen> something I'd eventually like to see
20110413 23:22:26< Xenmen> is an RTS game
20110413 23:22:38< Xenmen> where new players connect
20110413 23:22:43< Xenmen> and the map expands in one spot
20110413 23:22:51< Xenmen> after they have a while to build up
20110413 23:22:58< Xenmen> and connects them to everyone else
20110413 23:23:09< Xenmen> sure it's still unbalanced for them
20110413 23:23:14< Xenmen> but it'll make the game more interesting   :D
20110413 23:23:15< Afan_> connects them after they build up you mean? Or just put them in a remote area
20110413 23:23:21< Xenmen> I love procedurally generated maps
20110413 23:23:29< Xenmen> Afan_: I mean expanding on the map
20110413 23:23:30< Afan_> It would be interesting for Space 4x's
20110413 23:23:43< Xenmen> I should have clarified that I was thinking procedurally generated maps in the first place
20110413 23:23:52< Xenmen> it wouldn't be possible with traditional maps
20110413 23:24:08< Afan_> I meant, either expanding the map and then putting the new preson there, or creating a small pesudo world where the new person has time to build up and then connect the two worlds
20110413 23:24:17< Xenmen> ah; the latter
20110413 23:24:21< Xenmen> pseudo world
20110413 23:24:23< Xenmen> and then connect with main
20110413 23:25:01< Xenmen> first server would generate expanded area
20110413 23:25:08< Xenmen> and then send that area to new player
20110413 23:25:16< Xenmen> and then keep separate a while
20110413 23:25:27< Xenmen> then connect
20110413 23:25:30< Xenmen> is what I'm thinking
20110413 23:25:48< Afan_> I want a space 4x with that now
20110413 23:25:49< Xenmen> Of course, it'd be interesting for civ-like games too
20110413 23:25:57< Afan_> or any 4x game i guess
20110413 23:26:09< Xenmen> Could always contribute to FreeCiv
20110413 23:26:09< Xenmen> :b
20110413 23:26:25< Xenmen> I've considered it, but I don't understand that spaghetti mess
20110413 23:26:32< Afan_> Or free orion
20110413 23:26:37< Xenmen> or that, yes
20110413 23:26:54< Afan_> The code over their is that bad?
20110413 23:26:58< Afan_> there*
20110413 23:27:10< Xenmen> FreeCiv has some issues with messy code, yes
20110413 23:27:16< Xenmen> Wesnoth has done much better in that respect
20110413 23:27:17< Xenmen> MUCH better
20110413 23:27:35< Xenmen> Freeciv has suffered a lot from featurecreep
20110413 23:27:41< Xenmen> everything is a hack
20110413 23:27:50< Xenmen> a lot like Blender was like
20110413 23:27:59< Xenmen> AND gimp...
20110413 23:28:07< Xenmen> but both those projects are getting cleaned up now
20110413 23:28:21< Xenmen> FreeCiv is just too small though; they won't get the attention they need
20110413 23:28:35< Xenmen> And now that Civ 5 has come out
20110413 23:28:38< Afan_> Yeah, the problem with most open source games seems to be lack of interest
20110413 23:28:50< Xenmen> yeah...
20110413 23:29:00< Afan_> I think it might be in part because they dont promote it like a game or even a mod does
20110413 23:29:19< Xenmen> plus most of the developers learn how to do such things while they're making these games
20110413 23:29:22< Xenmen> and then
20110413 23:29:27< Xenmen> they correct their mistakes as they go
20110413 23:29:36< Xenmen> and then they finally know how to do it right
20110413 23:29:43< Xenmen> and then they get hired for commercial projects
20110413 23:29:52< Xenmen> and leave behind the unfixed spaghetti code mess
20110413 23:29:53< Xenmen> :[
20110413 23:30:38< Afan_> It only become really annoying when there is no documentation and you can to figure out everything by looking through the code
20110413 23:31:40< Xenmen> heh, Blender was like that...
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20110413 23:31:53< Xenmen> in fact, there were entire conversations in the commented sections of the code   :P
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20110413 23:32:09< Xenmen> # This is messy but necessary don't touch it
20110413 23:32:29< Xenmen> # But it's bad for <reason> and it should be like <myway> because <myreason>
20110413 23:32:43< Xenmen> # No you are stupid this is necessary because <mybetterreason>
20110413 23:32:51< Xenmen> # Oh fine you win BUT I'LL BE BACK   D:(
20110413 23:32:58< Xenmen> and that's 1/3 the old code...
20110413 23:33:04< Afan_> lol
20110413 23:33:26< Xenmen> and sometimes the challenger would win but no one wanted to fix it
20110413 23:33:26< Xenmen> :D
20110413 23:33:40< Xenmen> and sometimes it was just conversations
20110413 23:33:43< Xenmen> it was interesting
20110413 23:33:46< Xenmen> but confusing
20110413 23:33:53< Afan_> I almost want to fix some code just because its an annoyence to look at something like that
20110413 23:33:54< Xenmen> no room for new contributors
20110413 23:34:11< Xenmen> As long as I have time, I give in to that temptation
20110413 23:34:23< Xenmen> provided that I *do* understand how it works and how to better it
20110413 23:34:27< Afan_> I think I will if my proposal is accepted
20110413 23:34:28< Xenmen> refactoring is FUN!
20110413 23:34:40< Xenmen> Wesnoth is hard to do that in though
20110413 23:34:45< Xenmen> the code's pretty clean
20110413 23:34:55< Xenmen> everywhere I've looked at least
20110413 23:34:58< Afan_> I've only looked a small part of it
20110413 23:35:03< Afan_> in the AI section
20110413 23:35:11< Xenmen> :D
20110413 23:35:16< Xenmen> Crab will love to hear that
20110413 23:35:20< Xenmen> and yes, he did an epic job
20110413 23:35:38< zaroth> Xenmen: if you want to do some refactoring, try http://globulation2.org
20110413 23:35:38< Afan_> did he write all of it?
20110413 23:36:05< zaroth> I tried to start contributing there, but it's quite a mess...
20110413 23:36:12< Xenmen> XD
20110413 23:36:26< Xenmen> Afan_: yup, all of it   :P
20110413 23:36:34< Xenmen> zaroth: I remember that project!
20110413 23:36:38< zaroth> pointers get passed, things get changed from nowhere
20110413 23:36:51< Afan_> pointers getting passed is messy? :P
20110413 23:37:10< Xenmen> it *can* get very messy   :P
20110413 23:37:20< shadowmaster> Pointers are not healthy in C++ code.
20110413 23:37:36< zaroth> well... if they lead to unintuitive changes, then yes, it is very messy
20110413 23:37:49< Xenmen> shadowmaster: the problem is more that the C++ syntax for pointers is clunky
20110413 23:37:57< Afan_> I need to use more references in some of my own code that I'm writing
20110413 23:38:07< Afan_> how so?
20110413 23:38:25< zaroth> Afan_: especially const type &refs are healthy ;-)
20110413 23:38:26< shadowmaster> No, the problem is that you shouldn't be using pointers in C++ most of the time. There are references and it is also possible to pass objects by value if their classes are designed correctly.
20110413 23:38:45< Xenmen> pass-by-value is sloooooooow   D:
20110413 23:39:27< Xenmen> Globulation had some traits that made it hard *not* to use pointers
20110413 23:39:42< Xenmen> the whole aspect of indirect unit control in an RTS
20110413 23:39:47< Xenmen> well, NO unit control actually
20110413 23:40:03< Xenmen> the AI is radically different
20110413 23:40:11< Xenmen> from
20110413 23:40:17< Xenmen> anything else, really
20110413 23:40:51< Xenmen> for something like that, the only speed efficient way is to pass pointers to things
20110413 23:40:59< Xenmen> especially building instances
20110413 23:41:06< zaroth> shadowmaster: could you pass me your .vimrc, or at least the part regarding correct tab indenting as in wesnoth?
20110413 23:41:11< Xenmen> AI is a scary blackbox in general anyway
20110413 23:41:37< Afan_> AI in general or the Wesnoth AI
20110413 23:41:45< loonycyborg> Xenmen: C++0x move construction will probably make passing by value a lot faster for many types.
20110413 23:42:07< zaroth> I'm not really proficient in writing .vimrc and since I always use 2-space (not tab) indenting, I'm getting lost in all these tabstop= noexpandtab etc, to make everything work as it should
20110413 23:42:11< Xenmen> loonycyborg: ah yes; the new C++   :B   exciting
20110413 23:42:36< Xenmen> loonycyborg: I really hope that it does fix that
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20110413 23:43:54< loonycyborg> Even with C++03 I'm not sure whether that pass by value is slow enough that it should be avoided at all costs.
20110413 23:44:30< loonycyborg> Though I tend to prefer pass-by-reference anyway.
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20110413 23:47:09< shadowmaster> zaroth: I don't use vim for WML :)
20110413 23:47:30< shadowmaster> or Wesnoth's C++, for that matter.
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20110413 23:48:05< zaroth> shadowmaster: what then? (I meant C++) do you use Kate for everything?
20110413 23:48:34< zaroth> (btw, I also use Kate to edit WML, thanks to your plugin ;-) )
20110413 23:48:39< shadowmaster> I use Kate for everything except configuration files and files in remot e servers.
20110413 23:48:47< shadowmaster> and commit messages.
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20110413 23:52:23< sytyi> zaroth: hi
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20110413 23:52:31< zaroth> hi sytyi
20110413 23:52:54< sytyi> zaroth: AFAIR you mentioned you use QT
20110413 23:53:25< zaroth> sytyi: that's right
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20110413 23:53:38< sytyi> zaroth: maybe you know how to include boost lib to dependencies
20110413 23:54:15< zaroth> hm, you mean in cmake?
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20110413 23:55:01< sytyi> zaroth: I mean in qmake. :(
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20110413 23:57:00< zaroth> well, I never did it, but first result in google for "qmake boost" seems pretty sound... did you try that?
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20110413 23:57:51 * Xenmen leaves to make rice...
20110413 23:57:54< sytyi> zaroth: I should try
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20110413 23:58:32< sytyi> zaroth: someInteresting that I can not find libboost_regex.so  in /usr/
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20110413 23:59:42< zaroth> if you mean that it's not in /usr/lib/ than you either don't have it installed or your distribution has a weird location policy ;-) 
--- Log closed Thu Apr 14 00:00:55 2011