--- Log opened Wed Apr 27 00:00:19 2011
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20110427 09:47:25< Ivanovic> moin
20110427 09:49:29< timotei> morning Ivanovic 
20110427 09:49:40< timotei> grr, mac crashed the boot record again
20110427 09:49:51< timotei> linux live cd to the rescue!
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20110427 10:06:12< timotei> mordante: in your last mail you say: "I propose to update our coding standards to say Wesnoth
20110427 10:06:12< timotei> uses c++98.".  Isn't that already done? Like you said in the previous sentence?
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20110427 10:35:56< CIA-82> timotei * r49326 /trunk/utils/java/ (org.wesnoth/readme/README.tex update_site/doc_howto.html): eclipse plugin: Fix for bug #18076
20110427 10:36:04< CIA-82> timotei * r49327 /website/eclipse.wesnoth.org/doc_howto.html: Update the documentation link
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20110427 12:40:32< jiero> hi, I have a question, can I adjust the view length - now its upto the unit's "moves".
20110427 12:43:24< Ivanovic> "view length"?
20110427 12:43:38< {V}> jiero, I'm not sure what you mean by view length, but then again I'm a newbie when it comes to wesnoth development
20110427 12:43:39< Ivanovic> you mean the radius around the unit that is unveiled (shroud/fog)?
20110427 12:44:21< {V}> oh. right. that would make sense
20110427 12:44:45< Ivanovic> jiero: and in which context do you want to change it?
20110427 12:45:04< Ivanovic> as "content creator" to eg allow some units a larger/smaller range?
20110427 12:45:54< Ivanovic> or as player so that there is some different variation eg for mp games?
20110427 12:48:00< jiero> Ivanovic: I want change the entire view range system for my mod.
20110427 12:48:24< jiero> Ivanovic: Make all footman 1-2 sight range, and riders 3
20110427 12:48:37< Ivanovic> jiero: i don't know what is possible in those regards, but have you checked the wml reference in the wiki?
20110427 12:48:46< Ivanovic> if it is possible it *should* be listed there
20110427 12:49:17< jiero> Where?
20110427 12:49:18< Ivanovic> and keep in mind that the range is based on "hex the unit could reach in the next turn", not on neighbouring hexes
20110427 12:49:37< Soliton> move and view range are coupled. you cannot change them independently.
20110427 12:49:55< Ivanovic> so if there is a hex that costs 3 movement points, the unit would not see it if it only has two movement points
20110427 12:50:16< jiero> yes. I understand
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20110427 13:01:40< zookeeper> jiero, what soliton said; can't be done.
20110427 13:06:03< jiero> zookeeper: ty, but i will learn more to see if *
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20110427 13:17:11< zookeeper> jiero, to see if what?
20110427 13:17:49< jiero> zookeeper: if I manage to use Lua to fit similar rule...
20110427 13:19:50< zookeeper> well, using lua won't make it any more possible.
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20110427 13:20:42< zookeeper> hmm...
20110427 13:21:35< zookeeper> one thing you actually can do is give units more vision than they have movement.
20110427 13:26:54< zookeeper> jiero, so, it really depends on what exactly you want to do.
20110427 13:28:25< Soliton> even that will be pretty ugly, no?
20110427 13:29:43< Soliton> well, reduce max movement on refresh event or so? that's at least not too ugly implementation wise.
20110427 13:30:07< Soliton> i mean reduce moves and keep max movement higher.
20110427 13:31:04< Soliton> anyway not what he wants from what he mentioned.
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20110427 13:33:37< jiero> yeah.
20110427 13:54:15< {V}> jiero, apparently separating movement costs and sight range has come up before. For example in http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=28630
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20110427 16:35:01< fendrin> timotei21: hi
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20110427 16:37:44< timotei21> hi fendrin 
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20110427 16:41:43< fendrin> timotei21: Can the svn of our repository be tuned to ignore the .project files that are going to be generated by the umc designer?
20110427 16:42:23< timotei21> fendrin: hmm, you mean a repository wide ignore? I'm afraid svn is not that advanced. Every user has to defined his own ignores :(
20110427 16:42:51< timotei21> if we would use git or mercurial, a simple (.git|.hg)ignore would fix that
20110427 16:42:57< timotei21> I use git-svn so yeahz
20110427 16:43:10< timotei21> or maybe would be possible, but I have to search a bit for that
20110427 16:43:30< fendrin> Okay, can we have the eclipse specific stuff in the workspace but not in wesnoth's data tree?
20110427 16:43:36< Ivanovic> svn propset svn:ignore filename
20110427 16:43:50< timotei21> Ivanovic: that has to be run on each user's side, right?
20110427 16:43:57< timotei21> it doesn't work on server-side of the svn
20110427 16:43:59< timotei21> ?
20110427 16:44:05< Ivanovic> that has to be run for the folder
20110427 16:44:19< Ivanovic> and anyone with commit privs can run it
20110427 16:44:42< Ivanovic> you'd have to lookup the exact syntax for propset though
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20110427 16:44:49< Ivanovic> i tend to use propedit
20110427 16:49:39< timotei21> ok Thanks
20110427 16:50:03< timotei21> fendrin: but coming to think about it, I think I should move the .wesnoth file in the workspace rather than in the .project location
20110427 16:50:37< fendrin> I have a strange 3 places setup when coding c++ for wesnoth.
20110427 16:50:56< fendrin> The source is in /usr/local/wesnoth_develop/trunk
20110427 16:51:16< fendrin> The eclipse project is in /usr/local/wesnoth_develop/trunk_build
20110427 16:51:35< fendrin> And the settings are in workspace.
20110427 16:51:36< timotei21> eclipse project? a ok
20110427 16:51:41< timotei21> well
20110427 16:51:54< fendrin> It's okay so.
20110427 16:51:57< timotei21> you can use a subdirectory of the source for build :)
20110427 16:52:10< timotei21> and add an ignore for that folder when trying to commit ;)
20110427 16:52:20< fendrin> I can use svn on the commandline without trouble in the source directory.
20110427 16:52:35< fendrin> compile there with scons
20110427 16:52:37< fendrin> and so on
20110427 16:53:03< fendrin> I can rebuild the eclipse project without loosing my settings.
20110427 16:53:35< fendrin> Quite good to have all separated and not in the same fs tree.
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20110427 16:56:53< timotei21> let's see
20110427 16:57:02< CIA-82> timotei * r49328 /website/eclipse.wesnoth.org/: svn:ignore for .project files
20110427 16:57:06< timotei21> fendrin: could you help me test if my current commit really works?
20110427 16:57:32< timotei21> fendrin: I need you just to checkout: http://svn.gna.org/svn/wesnoth/website/eclipse.wesnoth.org/
20110427 16:57:47< timotei21> fendrin: and then go inside it and: touch .project
20110427 16:57:57< timotei21> and see if it sees it like an uncommited file.
20110427 16:58:14< timotei21> if it doesn't see, then yes, we can set svn:ignore for .project/.wesnoth files for the data folder :)
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20110427 17:00:47< fendrin> timotei21: Yeah, it works.
20110427 17:01:18< fendrin> timotei21: Bot not with ".wesnoth"
20110427 17:01:25< fendrin> s/Bot/But
20110427 17:01:36< fendrin> Only .project is ignored.
20110427 17:02:04< timotei21> fendrin: yes, I've tested just with .wesnoth :)
20110427 17:02:57< timotei21> fendrin: so if everybody is fine ignoring the .project|.wesnoth files in each of data's subdirectory I can add them ;)
20110427 17:03:45< fendrin> timotei21: No.
20110427 17:04:24< fendrin> timotei21: Some users may just use a wesnoth installation from their linux distribution. They don't have write access in the data dir.
20110427 17:04:44< fendrin> timotei21: At the end the . files will need to go in the workspace.
20110427 17:05:17< Crendgrim> fendrin: isn't the data dir normally in $HOME/.local/share/wesnoth/1.9 ?
20110427 17:05:54< fendrin> Crendgrim: /usr/share/games/wesnoth/
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20110427 17:06:29< Crendgrim> ah.. and why can't you use the userdata dir?
20110427 17:06:39< timotei> fendrin: well, the .wesnoth can be moved. But I don't know about the .project file. iirc it should stay together with the directory
20110427 17:06:44< timotei> I'll research on this
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20110427 17:07:04< fendrin> Crendgrim: For?
20110427 17:08:53< Crendgrim> nevermind, I think I misunderstood..
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20110427 17:09:54< timotei> fendrin: I've just asked the eclipse guys, so it's like I knew. If we want to have an external .project on another tree than it's files, we need a "big" workaround and link every single file to that location
20110427 17:10:12< timotei> that would mean, hook into every single ... file creation wizard and add our linking code...
20110427 17:10:20< fendrin> Crendgrim: We could write eclipse related information in wesnoth's savedir. But I think they better match in the "workspace" of eclipse.
20110427 17:10:22< timotei> which is something I surely won't want.
20110427 17:10:51< timotei> so we'd better add .project|.wesnoth ignores on the data's subfolders :P
20110427 17:11:39< fendrin> How do we solve the write access problems?
20110427 17:11:57< timotei> fendrin: oh. I understand what you mean
20110427 17:12:11< timotei> well, why would anyone who is not a developer mess with main campaigns?:)
20110427 17:12:31< timotei> if you want, I think it's better to have a local full-access tree, am I not right?
20110427 17:12:49< fendrin> Wait.
20110427 17:13:21< fendrin> Our customer is the everyday wesnoth user who wants to make his own campaign.
20110427 17:13:31< timotei> yes.
20110427 17:13:49< timotei> and by default, the plugin creates the projects in the workspace.
20110427 17:13:50< fendrin> So he can start the "UMC Designer" and see through the mainline campaign for examples how stuff is coded.
20110427 17:13:57< timotei> oh
20110427 17:14:01< timotei> I see
20110427 17:14:07< fendrin> That is important.
20110427 17:14:13< timotei> True
20110427 17:14:21< fendrin> I think looking at the mainline campaigns is the best way to learn wml.
20110427 17:14:28< timotei> Let me think about it.
20110427 17:15:42< timotei> fendrin: what about, creating a special Mainline project , which is linked to the data/campaigns folder?
20110427 17:16:58< timotei> that way I have to do the linking to a single project
20110427 17:16:58< timotei> and the .project would be in the workspace
20110427 17:16:58< timotei> what do you think about it?
20110427 17:16:58< fendrin> hmmm
20110427 17:16:58< fendrin> Does that still work?
20110427 17:17:13< timotei> the single thing I don't now atm is if the building and all that intellisense feature would work on that.
20110427 17:17:34< timotei> but again, if the users wants to learn wml he would need only to read that, not modify anyway right?
20110427 17:17:40< fendrin> It should still be possible to call wmllint for LoW and only for LoW for example.
20110427 17:18:15< fendrin> Rigth, but there is still the developer like me who wants to use the eclipse thing to maintain a mainline campaign.
20110427 17:18:21< timotei> well... I'm thinking about this way: you want the campaigns project just for reference. Then I create that special readonly project.
20110427 17:18:31< timotei> you want to modify the campaigns, you create the projects in the data dir
20110427 17:18:49< timotei> but yeah, calling wmllint won't be a problem
20110427 17:20:40< fendrin> I am not sure about having different code or usage paths depending on the writeability of the filesystem.
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20110427 17:20:58< fendrin> That looks hacky.
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20110427 17:22:55< fendrin> Just imagine the manual that describes to the DAU how to handle things depending on if he has read only access to the datadir or not.
20110427 17:23:45< fendrin> And we have two different types of projects then.
20110427 17:24:06< fendrin> One project is a container of all mainline campaigns, the other is just a single campaign.
20110427 17:24:36< fendrin> Or we have just one type of project but that is ambiguous.
20110427 17:24:46< fendrin> Sounds rather complicated.
20110427 17:25:21< fendrin> Do you remember when we talked about the multiple wesnoth installations thing?
20110427 17:25:38< fendrin> timotei: What was the "multiple project" feature called again?
20110427 17:27:35< timotei> fendrin: sorry, was afk a bit. reading now
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20110427 17:29:51< timotei> fendrin: well multiple wesnoth installations >P
20110427 17:29:53< timotei> :P*
20110427 17:30:07< timotei> but that is not related to current issue :)
20110427 17:30:16< fendrin> The eclipse feature.
20110427 17:30:24< timotei> oh
20110427 17:30:26< timotei> working sets
20110427 17:30:31< fendrin> Right.
20110427 17:31:22< fendrin> A working set consists of several projects, right?
20110427 17:31:27< timotei> yes.
20110427 17:31:43< timotei> but coming to think about it, thanks God I didn't chose that way. because a project can be in multiple working sets
20110427 17:31:48< timotei> and having a working set for each isntallation
20110427 17:31:52< timotei> would have mangled everything
20110427 17:32:10< timotei> doing the custom project properties is a better way :)
20110427 17:33:12< fendrin> Okay, but let's keep the relations fixed.
20110427 17:33:34< fendrin> Project ~ Campaign
20110427 17:33:40< timotei> oky
20110427 17:34:08< fendrin> Your proposal would mean Project ~ Campaign or Set of Campaigns.
20110427 17:34:15< timotei> hmm... I know what I can do
20110427 17:34:17< timotei> lemme test something
20110427 17:34:59< timotei> so basically, current issue is that we can't "add" a project on a read-only data tree, right?
20110427 17:35:20< timotei> while we still want to be able to have a project for each data campaign for reference purposes
20110427 17:36:01< fendrin> yes
20110427 17:36:24< timotei> good. I'll think today or tomorrow about it. Atm need to fix some WPF issue with the ImagineCup project :D
20110427 17:36:50< timotei> thanks for pointing it out
20110427 17:46:34< fendrin> timotei: I would also like to talk about the layout of the "project" browser if you find the time.
20110427 17:46:50< timotei> fendrin: yes
20110427 17:47:55< fendrin> timotei: now?
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20110427 17:48:14< timotei> fendrin: better later/tomorrow
20110427 17:48:24< fendrin> timotei: okay, just ping me
20110427 17:48:24< timotei> fendrin: ping me in about 2 hours
20110427 17:48:26< timotei> ok;)
20110427 17:48:28< fendrin> ok
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20110427 19:01:15< boucman> hey all
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20110427 19:02:11< fendrin> hi boucman
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20110427 20:17:21< fendrin> boucman: Do you have a little time?
20110427 20:18:08< boucman> to discuss, yes, to code, not really
20110427 20:19:03< fendrin> I saw you talking with Sytyi (iirc) about the multiplayer stuff yesterday.
20110427 20:19:22< fendrin> I did not get what you meant with gui2 dialogs in a prestart event.
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20110427 20:27:40< boucman> fendrin: that was zaroth
20110427 20:27:51< fendrin> ah yes
20110427 20:28:01< boucman> but no matter, my point was the following
20110427 20:28:13< boucman> assume that we can create gui2 windows in WML
20110427 20:28:21< fendrin> We can.
20110427 20:28:21< boucman> (might already be possible, i'm not sure)
20110427 20:28:24< boucman> great
20110427 20:28:31< fendrin> It is doable through lua.
20110427 20:29:11< boucman> in that case, we could just drop the MP campaign setup screen entirely, and just trigger a WML event,
20110427 20:29:34< boucman> UMC could then build their own setup window, (and we would provide a default one taht would look like the current setup screen
20110427 20:30:15< boucman> the point is to generalize to simplify c++ make WML more powerfull, and keep the current simplicitty for simple stuff through smart default/provided macros
20110427 20:30:54< fendrin> I see a problem with that.
20110427 20:31:09< boucman> zaroth: if you are around you might want to follow that discussion
20110427 20:31:12< boucman> yes ?
20110427 20:32:01< fendrin> The whole point of the MP setup screen is the fact that the game creator can define the configuration of the game, but he needs to find players who are willing to play with his selections.
20110427 20:32:12< fendrin> So you would need to simulate that process ingame.
20110427 20:32:29< fendrin> The game creator making suggestions, the players deny or accept and so on.
20110427 20:32:58< fendrin> Our current setup screen is able to handle that like it is expected from similar games.
20110427 20:33:10< boucman> I was more thinking of the game creation screen (shroud/FoW/difficulty) than the connection screen (leader type/gold per village) but the point is valid
20110427 20:34:05< fendrin> The game creation screen must be outside the game.
20110427 20:34:41< fendrin> Because difficult settings means reparsing the scenario with different preprocessor symbols defined.
20110427 20:35:24< fendrin> At least if we don't change the whole concept of how we handle difficult levels.
20110427 20:36:12< boucman> fendrin: I don't think we will, we might make it optional, but the basic idea of setting a couple of preproc macros before campaign start will most likely stay
20110427 20:38:19< boucman> fendrin: our plan didn't involve MP connection screen at this point, but it's a delicate case since it mix engine side decision (who plays what) and Scenario side decision (it would be nice if things like choosing leader or GpV could be change by UMC creator)
20110427 20:42:07< fendrin> boucman: You can already fix the GpV and the leader in the scenario. It's just that the gui does behave strangely if that is done so.
20110427 20:45:11< boucman> what I was trying to say is that choosing what player plays what side should be handled by the engine, but having the other widgets on that screen be dicided by UMC would be cool, though it isn't a trivial feature
20110427 20:45:54< Espreon> iwaim___: 
20110427 20:45:55< fendrin> By the engine?
20110427 20:45:58< Espreon> Whoops.
20110427 20:54:44< boucman> fendrin: my ideas on mp connection screen isn't very stabilized at this point, but I understand your problem,
20110427 20:55:13< boucman> I don't like how the settings on the mp connect screen are hardwired, and i'd like to make them WML defined instead, but i'm not sure how to do that...
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20110427 20:57:29< fendrin> boucman: Something like [setup_option] type=scrollbar range=4-8 description="Number of Mushrooms to collect" ?
20110427 20:57:52< fendrin> scrollbar is not the right word.
20110427 20:57:54< fendrin> Slider
20110427 20:58:05< fendrin> Yeah, slider is better.
20110427 20:58:39< boucman> in an ideal world, we would have some special "mp aware" widgets, and leave the UMC define everything via LUA
20110427 20:58:53< boucman> but something like what you described would work too, though less powerfull
20110427 20:59:53< boucman> [mp_slider] writer_side=1,2 reader_side=3,4 ...[/mp_slider] for a slider that can be set by players from side 1 and 2, visible to sides 3 and 4 and invisible to other sides
20110427 21:01:43< fendrin> You have a realy complicate setup in mind.
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20110427 21:03:22< boucman> how do you think the animation engine became so powerfull :P
20110427 21:03:37< Nephro> hello
20110427 21:04:28< Nephro> can't catch Crab around here. Did he say something about when he might be here?
20110427 21:06:15< Nephro> I mean, I haven't got a word with him since I got accepted
20110427 21:06:30< boucman> wesbot: seen Crab_
20110427 21:06:30< wesbot> boucman: The person with the nick Crab_ last spoke 2d 5h ago.  5h 30m ago they left with the message: Read error: Connection reset by peer
20110427 21:06:50< boucman> Nephro: don't worry too much, he should be back soon
20110427 21:07:56< Nephro> I am not worried, it's just that now is a period called community bonding and nothing happened :)
20110427 21:08:10< Nephro> boucman: have you mentored before?
20110427 21:08:44< boucman> yes, this is my fourth year
20110427 21:08:50< boucman> and crab's second
20110427 21:08:57< boucman> (he was my student the year before that)
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20110427 21:12:16< Nephro> boucman: is GSoC more about "student does his work and seeks for the help of mentors if in trouble" or "mentor gives student a task and helps with it almost constantly"? Just wonder, how are the students and mentors expected to interact
20110427 21:13:06< Sytyi> Nephro: I think it demands on a project. 
20110427 21:13:28< boucman> Nephro: it depends a lot on the style of student and mentors, I had students I had to mentor and give tasks every day, and other where I would join IRC, he would tell me what he did and I would just say "great, go on..."
20110427 21:14:08< boucman> Nephro: basically if you have a good idea of what the first step of your project is, don't wait for crab, code it right away... he'll comment when he gets back
20110427 21:14:18< Sytyi> Nephro: I mean community
20110427 21:14:19< boucman> and you can always ask other devs
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20110427 21:14:38< gabba> Hi all
20110427 21:15:35< Nephro> boucman: makes sense. I just want to understand, how google would see all this. I mean, is my sole purpose to code the solution or I am expected to learn and develop my programming skills during the summer
20110427 21:17:02< boucman> google doesn't really look over our shoulder, we say what we thing the project achieved, and google trust us
20110427 21:17:09< gabba> tschmitz: around?
20110427 21:17:10< tschmitz> Ah, there's gabba
20110427 21:17:19< boucman> we can ask on the mentor list for advice, but it's our decision eventually
20110427 21:17:27< gabba> yup, Hi tschmitz
20110427 21:17:28< tschmitz> Just working on a programming assignment ...
20110427 21:18:14< gabba> good thing you'll have Wesnoth to do some *fun* programming to rest from that ;)
20110427 21:19:15< tschmitz> Right
20110427 21:19:18< tschmitz> heh
20110427 21:19:23< Nephro> boucman: and what does google seek in the submitted parts. E.g. they will evaluate something in July, will they look on the amount, quality of the code or my timeline precision? I mean should I code for speed or quality?
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20110427 21:19:40< mordante> servus
20110427 21:20:01< mordante> wesbot seen timotei
20110427 21:20:01< wesbot> mordante: The person with the nick timotei last spoke 3h 31m ago.  2h 17m ago they left with the message: Read error: Connection reset by peer
20110427 21:20:26< boucman> Nephro: they won't evaluate anything, evaluation is the mentor's responsability
20110427 21:22:00< gabba> tschmitz: ping me whenever you're available to discuss how we get organized for GSoC. I won't be online for long today since I'm tired by a lot of late-night studying, so waiting for tomorrow is fine by me.
20110427 21:22:25< Espreon> mordante: Ic grete þe.
20110427 21:22:34< mordante> hi Espreon 
20110427 21:22:44< gabba> thank <insert deity of choice here>, exams are over
20110427 21:23:09< tschmitz> gabba: Now is presumably a good time; I'm staying home from most of school today since I'm sick, although I have a midterm to go to in a couple of hours
20110427 21:24:17< gabba> tschmitz: ok
20110427 21:24:43< Nephro> boucman: that's weird, so the mentors decide whether the student fails or not?
20110427 21:25:28< boucman> yes
20110427 21:25:38< boucman> who else do you think would be able to juge ?
20110427 21:26:15< Nephro> well, they could have people in black suits in google for that :)
20110427 21:26:39< gabba> tschmitz: so, if you followed your calendar to the letter, from now until may 23 you're gonna work on the suppose dead action
20110427 21:26:57< Ivanovic> Nephro: the org mentors *are* those people in black suits
20110427 21:27:08< Ivanovic> in fact they are even more special!
20110427 21:27:33< gabba> tschmitz: I'm not expecting you to neglect school or have zero social life/leisure time, of course :P
20110427 21:27:41< Ivanovic> most people don't know how they look (secret identity stuff!) and, so that they are not this easy to spot, they often don't wear the black suites
20110427 21:27:44< Ivanovic> ;)
20110427 21:28:03< boucman> Ivanovic: until we receive our t-shirts :P
20110427 21:28:18< tschmitz> gabba: Heh
20110427 21:28:20< Ivanovic> boucman: the last two shirts were not black!
20110427 21:28:27< Ivanovic> they were blue and green
20110427 21:28:30< boucman> yes, we droped the mask :P
20110427 21:28:56< tschmitz> gabba: It'll be a challenge, since I already have essentially no social life, but ...
20110427 21:29:39< gabba> heh
20110427 21:30:01< Nephro> Ivanovic: :) But the human factor is important here, I mean, a mentor in most cases will "pull" the student, if the student is really trying, but having trouble accomplishing the task, or am I wrong? I think someone said, that one year there were failed student in gsoc for wesnoth, can you tell something about that experience?
20110427 21:30:02< mordante> but the GCI shirt was black again :-)
20110427 21:30:34< tschmitz> gabba: suppose_dead can use some improvement so presumably that's worth spending some of my free time on for the next couple of weeks?
20110427 21:31:13< gabba> tschmitz: yeah, definitely
20110427 21:32:01< boucman> Nephro: well, we mainly had problems with students disapearing/slacking off...
20110427 21:32:06< boucman> but why so worried ?
20110427 21:32:23< mordante> Nephro, we hope students are active and enthusiast so we don't need to pull ;-)
20110427 21:32:26< tschmitz> gabba: My exams are coming up, so hopefully I will (counter-intuitively) have less homework and more time to think about Wesnoth
20110427 21:32:36< gabba> tschmitz: actually you have three things to familiarize yourself with: the community, the code, and the game
20110427 21:33:39< gabba> community-wise you're doing a good job by being on irc, maybe also browse the wiki to see what's expected of developers, and visit the forums a bit
20110427 21:34:01< boucman> and play some mp games :P
20110427 21:34:07< gabba> code-wise, I'd love to see what you can come up with as visuals for suppose dead
20110427 21:34:15< gabba> boucman: stop reading my mind :P
20110427 21:34:36< boucman> hehe, I keep some bad habits from mentoring you last year :D
20110427 21:35:13< gabba> tschmitz: game-wise ^what boucman said, I recommend multiplayer games with an ally
20110427 21:35:25< Nephro> just interested :) Although I have to admit, now that I am accepted a scary thought comes to my head from time to time. Especially about my idea. I feel confident about my coding skills, but can't be 100% sure, that my thing will really improve the AI... Although in my thoughts it should
20110427 21:35:29< gabba> boucman: that kind of bad habit is fine by me ;)
20110427 21:36:04< boucman> Nephro: that's sort of inherent with AI coding... Crab has a good testing framework, that helps
20110427 21:36:11< boucman> and remember that AI coding has two aims
20110427 21:36:27< boucman> * a "better AI" I.E plays better, harder to beat
20110427 21:36:51< boucman> * an easy to code/configurable AI for campaign authors, and that's something totally different to juge
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20110427 21:37:49< gabba> tschmitz: so, to get more concrete, did you think about what you want to do for the suppose dead visuals
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20110427 21:38:01< gabba> tschmitz: ?
20110427 21:38:02< tschmitz> gabba: Heh yeah I'll probably be able to fit in a few games from time to time
20110427 21:38:40< tschmitz> gabba: I haven't been thinking about it, unfortunately
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20110427 21:39:24< gabba> tschmitz: then, why not set a goal for that?
20110427 21:39:31< Nephro> boucman: my project inlvolves almost no current code modification, all of the campaign configs may remain the same
20110427 21:39:49< boucman> ok
20110427 21:40:31< mordante> Nephro, an AI is rather experimental so it might be your ideas don't work, but that doesn't mean your GSoC task also fails
20110427 21:40:36< tschmitz> gabba: Have you thought about how suppose_dead should look, btw?
20110427 21:40:55< boucman> my though from last year's feedbak
20110427 21:41:12< mordante> Nephro, we have to judge whether we think you did a good enough job to pass GSoC
20110427 21:41:18< Sytyi> mordante: hi ! :)
20110427 21:41:19< boucman> an ugly skull overlay that make artists cry so hard that they rush to replace it themselves :)
20110427 21:41:23< mordante> hi Sytyi 
20110427 21:41:44< gabba> tschmitz: a little, but I'd prefer you come up with a few solutions before we discuss it in details
20110427 21:41:59< Sytyi> rather an interesting discussion goes here
20110427 21:42:01< tschmitz> gabba: Heh, OK
20110427 21:42:16< tschmitz> boucman seems to have the right idea
20110427 21:42:26< Nephro> boucman: and I've set a pretty pessimistic compulsory goal, to make the AI using the brain outplay the current one. That should be pretty easy from the actual AI stuff, but the codebase must be done
20110427 21:42:37< boucman> :)
20110427 21:43:35< gabba> tschmitz: The essential thing is that you should be able to move another unit on top without it looking obnoxious
20110427 21:43:56< tschmitz> gabba: Yeah, was thinking about that
20110427 21:44:20< boucman> again, from what we learnt last year :
20110427 21:44:39< gabba> tschmitz: also shortcut-key wise making it  work like a toggle would be nice I think, as I said
20110427 21:44:53< boucman> for the graphical aspect, the best way to know is to try it, early design avoid stupid mistakes, but doesn't provide a "good" UI
20110427 21:44:57< tschmitz> gabba: Sounds like a good idea
20110427 21:45:02< boucman> testing and changing your mind is the way to go
20110427 21:46:04< gabba> boucman: true
20110427 21:47:10< gabba> boucman: mockups are awesome for spotting problems though, I think I probably should have kept making some last year
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20110427 21:48:05< gabba> they're boring to make, but it's much less effort than refactoring the same code several times (like that present -> future -> present aspect change I went through... gah)
20110427 21:48:28< boucman> yes, I count mockup as a quick way to experiment, not as a design :)
20110427 21:48:36< tschmitz> gabba: heh
20110427 21:48:39< gabba> ok, we fully agree then
20110427 21:48:48< boucman> but it still needs to be validated, remember how much we learnt by playing a couple of games...
20110427 21:49:22< boucman> and I was speaking about UI design, that's less true for internal mechanics
20110427 21:49:28< Ivanovic> Nephro: in general the student should be "proactive"
20110427 21:49:43< Ivanovic> meaning: the student should not hesitate to ask any questions when you are hanging or seeing a problem
20110427 21:50:01< boucman> zaroth: ping me when you are around...
20110427 21:50:02< Ivanovic> the mentor is meant to guide the student in case problems arise, but has to be aware of those, too
20110427 21:50:58< gabba> tschmitz: what about you try and code up some visuals for next wednesday, and then we discuss what works and doesn't?
20110427 21:51:44< tschmitz> gabba: Yeah I don't have any programs due next week so this weekend I can probably spend on Wesnoth
20110427 21:52:02< gabba> great
20110427 21:52:26< tschmitz> gabba: Weekends will alternate like that for me, it seems, since I tend to have programs due every two weeks
20110427 21:52:31< tschmitz> in my two programming classes
20110427 21:52:35< gabba> ok I see
20110427 21:52:46< gabba> what are your assignments about these times around?
20110427 21:53:05< Nephro> Ivanovic: yes, that's why I ask... See, I can start doing something on myself, just writing code to expose objects to lua for example, but maybe that wasn't Crab's initial goal, I mean, he saw it in a different key, how much could/should he intrude in my work... Just wanna be sure I understand how it will all look, since this is my first contact with GSoC
20110427 21:54:34< boucman> you can't go wrong with starting to code :)
20110427 21:54:38< tschmitz> gabba: currently I'm programming the Game of Life
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20110427 21:55:38< gabba> tschmitz: sounds interesting, it can be very pretty to watch when you start it with the right patterns
20110427 21:56:04< mordante> Nephro, best start with what you think should be done first
20110427 21:56:55< mordante> Nephro, or if Crab_ asked you to work on something start with that
20110427 21:57:00< tschmitz> gabba: Our teacher has spent a fair bit of time talking about how "cool" it is
20110427 21:57:11< tschmitz> gabba: He showed us some youtube videos
20110427 21:57:28< tschmitz> showed us a paper on how the game of life can be used to implement a universal computer
20110427 21:58:10< mordante> Sytyi, how are you doing?
20110427 21:58:20< tschmitz> gabba: I'm writing it in C++, but since this is for an algorithms class, part of the assignment is to implement a linked list
20110427 21:58:47< tschmitz> and I'm basically rewriting the STL list class template, but this time with a capital L: List
20110427 21:59:15< tschmitz> so it's getting more complex than it probably needs to be
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20110427 22:00:28< Sytyi> mordante: I'm sorry but I'm doing university stuff. I have a great amount of problems there. My TODO list is 10 elems about and that's awhfull. I suggest to start at Friday. 
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20110427 22:02:10< mordante> Sytyi, no problem, university stuff is important
20110427 22:02:33< Ivanovic> Nephro: most important: don't worry too much!
20110427 22:02:41< Ivanovic> it is rather difficult to really fail
20110427 22:03:05< Ivanovic> that is: you have to really be absent, get nothing done, don'tbe working on your project, ...
20110427 22:04:23< Ivanovic> Nephro: just make sure to talk to your mentor regulary
20110427 22:04:39< Ivanovic> eg talk to him about what you are working on and also mention what you want to achive with this
20110427 22:05:04< Ivanovic> the mentor is likely to discuss things with you and point out possible problems and cases where it might not make sense to do this way
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20110427 22:14:22< shadowmaster> Espreon: http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?p=486783#p486783
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20110427 22:19:49< mordante> I'm off night
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20110427 22:23:15< Nephro> Ivanovic, mordante, boucman: thanks, makes much more sense now
20110427 22:28:57< CIA-82> ivanovic * r49329 /trunk/ (11 files in 4 dirs): applied utils/indexed2rgb.sh on trunk, wesnoth-optipng will follow soon...
20110427 22:31:00< Nephro> argh, by the way, will I get a t-shirt too? :)
20110427 22:32:01< Ivanovic> Nephro: yeah, students get a shirt, too
20110427 22:32:12< Ivanovic> that is: if you are successful!
20110427 22:32:35< Nephro> ah, so only in august? :( Too bad I won't be able to show off in summer
20110427 22:32:42< Ivanovic> even later
20110427 22:33:00< Ivanovic> i am not sure if i got my shirt last year in october or even later...
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20110427 22:34:18< tschmitz> going to eat breakfast, or lunch or whatever it is
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20110427 22:36:45< Ivanovic> boucman: what is the status of this openmp stuff?
20110427 22:36:50-!- negusnyul [~negusnyul@46.107.167.42] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20110427 22:36:52< Ivanovic> any news/resolution?
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20110427 22:38:06< boucman> we completely identified the problem, have a workaround for linuw, but were unable to confirm what was going on on other OS since nobody had previously compiled OMP on other OS, I added a note in the RELEASE_NOTE on what to observe and how to report
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20110427 22:46:38< zaroth> boucman: hello there
20110427 22:46:44< boucman> hey,
20110427 22:47:21< zaroth> reading the discussion with fendrin you pointed me to right now
20110427 22:47:42< boucman> was about to ask you to :)
20110427 22:48:12< fendrin> I am still around if there is any more stuff to discuss.
20110427 22:48:18< boucman> ok, thx
20110427 22:48:45< fendrin> zaroth: I would like to use LoW to test your implementation as soon as possible.
20110427 22:49:29< boucman> zaroth: just a small organisation point, you're in the european timezone, arn't you ?
20110427 22:52:10< shadowmaster> which of them? ;)
20110427 22:52:14< zaroth> boucman: yes, germany
20110427 22:52:58< boucman> good, so... i'm usually around in the evenings and on WE, my typical arrival time is 19h30 or 23h00
20110427 22:53:09< boucman> and i'm usually there on WE, would that fit you ?
20110427 22:53:54< zaroth> fendrin: your view presented in the discussion quite reflected my previous ideas, especially the fact that the options should be rather chosen prior to the game
20110427 22:54:11< zaroth> WE=weekend?
20110427 22:54:19< boucman> yes
20110427 22:55:37< zaroth> then yes, that's fitting me
20110427 22:56:05< boucman> great, so we'll do a little summary of what's going on whenever we meet on IRC.
20110427 22:56:37< zaroth> since I don't often take my laptop with me to the university, I often leave it with my IRC client running
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20110427 22:57:01< boucman> ok, good to know... so I'm not suprised when you are on IRC and don't answer :)
20110427 22:57:20< zaroth> so it's easier to me to read when my nick is highlighted and all the part/join/nick messages are gone
20110427 22:57:25< boucman> now, your first step is to add scenario_metadata... 
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20110427 22:59:13< zaroth> yes, but judging from our yesterday's discussion and my thoughts today, I think I'll actually change these plans a bit
20110427 22:59:25< boucman> ok, so what's the new plan :)
20110427 23:00:17< zaroth> well, I'm still holding that scenario_metadata might be needed (as a per-scenario tag), but not now
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20110427 23:01:04< zaroth> so I'll port the [campaign] tag... but it shouldn't be named [scenario_foo] to avoid confusion
20110427 23:01:14< boucman> I don't see anything in http://wiki.wesnoth.org/CampaignWML or http://wiki.wesnoth.org/ScenarioMetadataWML that seems to be scenario related (as opposed to campaign) but ok...
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20110427 23:01:28< boucman> yes, name it [campaign_metadata] :P
20110427 23:01:29< tschmitz> gabba: Back from food now, btw
20110427 23:01:48< zaroth> and I think it can stay named [campaign] after the porting is done
20110427 23:02:15< zaroth> but I would like to ask something about the preprocessor, wait again a second...
20110427 23:02:27 * zaroth heads off to make a quick look in the code
20110427 23:03:03< boucman> sure,  [campain] would work, except maybe from a conversion/upgrade point of view (emphasis on maybe, I havn't actually looked at this point)
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20110427 23:13:25< zaroth> now, when reading my patch again, I remember what the difficulty was
20110427 23:13:55< zaroth> to get the hack working, I had to create a file with {core} and {campaigns/LoW}
20110427 23:14:18< zaroth> to somehow make the preprocessing with new defines happen
20110427 23:15:19< zaroth> and I felt a bit awful about it, since it was because I clearly should have done it differently, but I'm not sure how
20110427 23:16:09< zaroth> second difficulty was with sliders overwriting campaign turn limit values
20110427 23:16:39< zaroth> so I created a hidden parameter, ignore_slider_values or something like that
20110427 23:17:05< zaroth> which was set when ui discovered that a [mp_campaign] was loaded
20110427 23:17:19< zaroth> it clearly shouldn't be done in such a way
20110427 23:17:43< tschmitz> gabba: I'll be back in about 3 hours; gotta go take my midterm now
20110427 23:18:11< zaroth> these are the two main points why the hack I made is a hack, other issues are rather easy to fix
20110427 23:18:27< zaroth> but these two request some consideration how things should be done instead
20110427 23:18:34< zaroth> boucman: any comments on these two issues?
20110427 23:18:41< boucman> just a sec
20110427 23:18:49< zaroth> i can pastebin relevant patch fragments if it'll help
20110427 23:18:57< boucman> pleas
20110427 23:18:58< boucman> e
20110427 23:23:27< zaroth> boucman: http://pastebin.com/wLyck2KM
20110427 23:23:59< CIA-82> ivanovic * r49330 /trunk/ (15 files in 6 dirs): 
20110427 23:23:59< CIA-82> applied utils/wesnoth-optipng:
20110427 23:23:59< CIA-82> Overall statistics (only for files with a smaller recompressed size):
20110427 23:23:59< CIA-82> Original size: 703 KiB on 15 files
20110427 23:23:59< CIA-82> Optimized size: 663 KiB
20110427 23:23:59< CIA-82> Total saving: 39 KiB = 5% decrease
20110427 23:23:59< CIA-82> Files with pixel differences (and because of this *not* committed!): http://pastebin.com/AWJXXN2w
20110427 23:24:14< zaroth> it's actually called ignore_values
20110427 23:24:19< zaroth> and I ignore just turn slider
20110427 23:24:31< zaroth> but I guess we can both agree it's bad anyway ;-)
20110427 23:24:55< zaroth> I'd be grateful if you could suggest a graceful approach to this...
20110427 23:32:49< boucman> ok, back... sorry
20110427 23:33:18< boucman> zaroth: for the slider part, i'd rather do it the other way round...
20110427 23:34:02< boucman> i.e add a param to [campaign] with "hide_sliders" (name is not good) that would hide all scenario parameters to leave them to the campaign designer.
20110427 23:34:38< zaroth> [campaign] hiding scenario parameters ? ;-)
20110427 23:34:53< zaroth> shouldn't it be a job of a per-scenario tag?
20110427 23:34:54< boucman> as discussed with fendrin earlier, the ideal solution would be for the UMC maker to be able to specify what sliders/buttons/menus he want in the MP connect window, but that's much harder to code 
20110427 23:35:06< boucman> (esp since it's not something gui2 handle at this point)
20110427 23:35:48< boucman> zaroth: hmm, do we (and should we) redisplay the MP connection screen between scenarios ?
20110427 23:35:58< boucman> I don't think we should.
20110427 23:36:04< zaroth> there definitely should be an option to do so
20110427 23:36:18< boucman> we should display it when reloading, but at that point the player shouldn't be able to set parameters
20110427 23:36:22< fendrin> hmmmm
20110427 23:36:32< zaroth> i think I discussed it before somewhere ;-)
20110427 23:36:40< boucman> zaroth: i'm not sure it makes sense to allow players to switch sides mid-campaign
20110427 23:36:59< boucman> (unless the UMC author forces them to, but as a first approch, i would disable it)
20110427 23:37:45< zaroth> why not? it's not a worry of campaign who controls which side
20110427 23:38:53< boucman> it is, for story continuity... again I think the default should be to disable it (makes most sense) and add an option to reenable it later (i.e not as a priority one task, unless it's "free" to add)
20110427 23:39:30< boucman> ideally, again a WML event to reopen the connection window and allow players to switch... so it can even be done mid-scenario or in case of player disconnection
20110427 23:39:50< boucman> but I don't think it makes that much sense, really
20110427 23:39:54< boucman> fendrin: opinions ?
20110427 23:40:09< zaroth> well, anyway, I think it's kind of limiting to only allow custom sliders at beginning of the campaign
20110427 23:40:21< fendrin> Just give me a minute, making tea.
20110427 23:41:47< boucman> zaroth: ok, we have two cases
20110427 23:42:17 * zaroth wishes Crab_ was here ;-)
20110427 23:42:29< boucman> * "normal" custom sliders can already be done more or less at any point since WML is able to popup a gui2 window defined through LUA (fendrin confirmed it)
20110427 23:43:06< boucman> * the problem is for MP-aware custom sliders, i.e a window that all players see simultaneously, in which they can chat and in which they interact simultaneously
20110427 23:43:53< boucman> if WML could do that sort of stuff, all our problems would be solved in an elegant way, since we would have nothing to code, the UMC could do anything through WML event without special cases in our code
20110427 23:44:04< boucman> so, we have two ways to go
20110427 23:44:20< fendrin> okay
20110427 23:44:27< fendrin> about the new connection screen.
20110427 23:44:41< fendrin> s/new/MP
20110427 23:44:43< zaroth> that makes me think... maybe the settings of a game should be also possible to be changed in the waiting screen?
20110427 23:45:04< zaroth> (where all players can see, not only host?)
20110427 23:45:15< zaroth> (and I mean current settings as well)
20110427 23:45:18< boucman> zaroth: let's let fendrin talk for a sec, this is getting a bit confusing :)
20110427 23:45:31< boucman> zaroth: taht's what I call connection screen...
20110427 23:45:41< fendrin> I guess the mp connection screen is the one where you can assign players to sides and each player can choose a faction and leader?
20110427 23:46:03< boucman> that's the one I meant... did I use the wrong term ?
20110427 23:46:29< fendrin> :-)
20110427 23:46:40< fendrin> I don't know the right term myself, that is why I ask.
20110427 23:47:11< boucman> ok, we need to agree on vocabulary :)
20110427 23:47:21< zaroth> that one is multiplayer_connect.cpp
20110427 23:47:23< boucman> campaign choice : seen by the host, choose campaign
20110427 23:47:32< zaroth> so I guess we can agree on connection screen
20110427 23:47:41< boucman> ok, that will be enough for now, then 
20110427 23:47:46< zaroth> the one with map choice is multiplayer_create.cpp, so it's creation screen
20110427 23:47:51< fendrin> Yeah, that is okay.
20110427 23:48:00< boucman> ok
20110427 23:48:08< fendrin> So we have creation followed by connection.
20110427 23:48:16< boucman> yes
20110427 23:48:51< fendrin> Currently we use information in connection which are inside the scenario so this dialog needs the campaign to be parsed already.
20110427 23:49:21< fendrin> For the creation screen that could be avoided by the metadata tag.
20110427 23:49:53< fendrin> Just on a side note.
20110427 23:50:04< fendrin> So, now to my point...
20110427 23:50:40< fendrin> You already know that the 15 LoW starting scenarios are a hack to have 5 chapters with 3 difficulties each.
20110427 23:50:56< fendrin> But also the 5 chapters are a hack.
20110427 23:51:27< fendrin> This hack is around not having the possibility to search for new players that easily.
20110427 23:51:59< fendrin> The reason for the different chapters is a change in the amount of players which have to participate during the campaign.
20110427 23:52:21< boucman> hmm, 
20110427 23:52:24< fendrin> You gather more and more members in your party. So the amount of human players grows from 2 to 5.
20110427 23:52:36< zaroth> fendrin: isn't this rather a campaign design thing?
20110427 23:52:49< fendrin> It is.
20110427 23:53:06< boucman> so your point is that the number of player might not be constant...
20110427 23:53:11< fendrin> Right.
20110427 23:53:14< boucman> ok
20110427 23:53:50< zaroth> (that's a good reason to display mp connection screen between the scenarios...)
20110427 23:53:56< fendrin> But telling the players during the game that they have to search for a new player and invite him to the campaign + handling the controll switch is just ugly.
20110427 23:54:12< fendrin> That is why I rather end the campaign do a persistent safe before.
20110427 23:54:23< fendrin> Restart a new chapter and load the persistent safe.
20110427 23:54:25< boucman> so, the number of players is a per-scenario data... and we need to have the right number of players before scenario starts...
20110427 23:54:33< fendrin> yes
20110427 23:54:47< fendrin> But...
20110427 23:55:39< fendrin> not only for multiplayer campaigns is that feature useful. The search for a replacement player in a running scenario would be much easier if the hoster could send it back to the lobby.
20110427 23:56:04 * zaroth thinks of lengthy replays
20110427 23:56:07< boucman> hmm
20110427 23:56:40< boucman> the player connection screen would also be a nicer UI in case of disconnect than the current host-only menu
20110427 23:56:50< boucman> here is a random idea
20110427 23:58:26< boucman> the multiplayer_connect screen is displayed whenever there is a problem with assignment of players, and start of campaign/disconnect/scenario change with new sides are just events that can potentially trigger this
20110427 23:58:48< boucman> ok, not very clear, but I think you can understand the idea
20110427 23:59:11< zaroth> maybe it should become a window ? ;-)
20110427 23:59:44< boucman> yes, maybe
--- Log closed Thu Apr 28 00:00:20 2011