--- Log opened Wed May 25 00:00:09 2011
--- Day changed Wed May 25 2011
20110525 00:00:09< boucman> ok, zaroth I have to go now,
20110525 00:00:27< zaroth> boucman: I'm still in the middle of the wesnoth-dev e-mail, it's gonna be long...
20110525 00:00:40< zaroth> but will be useful for referencing in discussion to keep the idea of what we're talking about
20110525 00:00:55< zaroth> boucman: see you tomorrow :-)
20110525 00:01:16< boucman> ok, fine, i'll read it and answer tomorow, try to give some specific ideas of what goes where in your next step, so you can start coding it soon
20110525 00:01:21< boucman> g'night all
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20110525 00:09:12< shadowmaster> anonymissimus: other than that it should be marked as Invalid?
20110525 00:13:25< anonymissimus> why invalid ? hm well you wrote there that you did research the bug so I was hoping you knew why my fix worked xD
20110525 00:13:39< shadowmaster> when
20110525 00:15:44< anonymissimus> "I'm researching into this, and..."; anyway, is it true that the [scenario]key= attributes did support variable substitution ? If yes it must've been long before I was around
20110525 00:16:07< anonymissimus> never read about thatm in the wiki
20110525 00:16:10< shadowmaster> how long ago was that
20110525 00:16:42< shadowmaster> in any case they probably did considering the path of the crash. should they still? no
20110525 00:16:42< anonymissimus> a bit more than 3 years :P
20110525 00:17:11< shadowmaster> if anything I only wanted people to receive an error message instead of a fatal signal
20110525 00:17:29< shadowmaster> and yes, it was so long ago I cannot recall anything more specific than that
20110525 00:18:31< anonymissimus> the backtrace you posted there makes partly sense; the code was probably in another class at that time
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20110525 09:28:51< Ivanovic> moin
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20110525 16:13:53< samyazza> hello...?
20110525 16:14:27< samyazza> I am a Wesnoth coding n00b in search of advice
20110525 16:15:01< samyazza> and I was wondering, who should I turn to?
20110525 16:17:56< timotei> samyazza: hi there :)
20110525 16:18:23< samyazza> hello, sir :)
20110525 16:18:36< timotei> samyazza: well, wesnoth has a very large domain to code for. What 'coding' specialities you'd like to 'taste' ?:P
20110525 16:19:31< samyazza> is there a way I could get a private chat with you?
20110525 16:20:00< samyazza> I am not familiar with this webchat interface I've entered
20110525 16:20:05< timotei> hmm
20110525 16:20:10< timotei> we discuss here openly :)
20110525 16:20:14< Nephro> samyazza, hi. You should probably just ask your question right here, since no one(probably) knows every aspect of the codebase, everyone is mostly an expert in one or two sections.
20110525 16:20:15< Nephro> timotei, hi, can you give me a hint, how to make eclipse use the Makefile I want it to use? It doesn't obey at the moment, googling fails to help me.
20110525 16:21:57< timotei> Nephro: umm...
20110525 16:22:13< timotei> Nephro: I never use(d) eclipse for C++
20110525 16:22:16< timotei> but KDevelop
20110525 16:22:23< timotei> Nephro: so IDK how to make that run
20110525 16:22:49< Nephro> I thought the fact that you were developing the eclipse implied that you actually use eclipse :)
20110525 16:23:26< timotei> Nephro: I use it :P (a lot)
20110525 16:23:31< timotei> but never for C/C++
20110525 16:23:38< timotei> I'm usinc MSVC for that
20110525 16:23:42< timotei> or KDevelop on windows
20110525 16:23:48< timotei> eclipse is too huge to know all aspects
20110525 16:23:54< timotei> you'd get better answer on 
20110525 16:23:56< timotei> #eclipse-cdt
20110525 16:23:57< timotei> IIRC
20110525 16:24:38< Nephro> timotei, ok, thanks... I am scared of MSVC now, when I discovered that some code written in it doesn't compile on gcc
20110525 16:24:49< timotei> Nephro: lol?
20110525 16:25:01< timotei> I mean, how it doesn't?
20110525 16:26:25< samyazza> Dear Wesnoth developers! Two friends and I are on a yearly project about AI and plan to use Wesnoth (in fact it is a requirement) to do that. The goal is to implement an environment which will allow users to generate custom AIs in an easy way. It will not utilize the AI system inside Wesnoth though. Rather, our program will be an extra layer
20110525 16:26:43< samyazza> The problem is feeding commands to Wesnoth
20110525 16:27:00< samyazza> it has been suggested to one of my friends on the Wesnoth forums
20110525 16:27:33< samyazza> to open a TCP socket and feed LUA code to the Wesnoth bots each turn
20110525 16:27:58< Nephro> timotei, I was writing some template specialization code that compiled perfectly well in MSVC, but when I had to compile the same code on GCC it crashed horribly, and guys on the C++ channel flamed at me a lot
20110525 16:28:14< timotei> Nephro: flamed? why?
20110525 16:28:16< timotei> I mean...
20110525 16:28:20< samyazza> To achieve that, we must modify the Wesnoth code a little bit.
20110525 16:29:29< Nephro> :) Well, they said that I should learn the proper way of specializing the templates... The way I did it I just stole from some forums, and it worked perfectly well, although it seems to not be valid C++
20110525 16:29:36< Nephro> Weird, eh?
20110525 16:29:47< samyazza> I'd like to start with something really simple, like a little console app to write lua code and send it straight to the game when it's needed
20110525 16:29:47< Nephro> I'll reboot
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20110525 16:30:19< timotei> Nephro: oh. Wel IDK.. I never did template metaprogramming so I don't know :(
20110525 16:30:41< samyazza> what I came here in search of is guidance
20110525 16:31:29< samyazza> the thing is - Wesnoth code is really extensive and I would appreciate it if someone pointed me to the regions I should modify
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20110525 16:48:00< samyazza> I understand that an AI script using the lua engine is read at some point within a game
20110525 16:48:21< samyazza> I need to locate "game" object to maintain my socket connection throughout
20110525 16:48:47< samyazza> throughout one whole Wesnoth game that is
20110525 16:49:14< samyazza> and I need to find out, where those scripts are fed to the analyzing engines
20110525 16:50:08< samyazza> a task so much more difficult, as there is no such thing as a "game" class or an "engine" namespace, or so I believe
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20110525 16:51:04< samyazza> is there a document or something, where I can see Wesnoth's execution flow??
20110525 16:57:03< samyazza> oh, yes, in fact, there is a game class
20110525 16:57:10< samyazza> my bad ;)
20110525 16:59:14< Soliton> samyazza: ask Crab about the AI when he comes online or maybe Nephro can give you some pointers already.
20110525 17:00:14< Soliton> btw, i'm curious what kind of project has wesnoth as a requirement?
20110525 17:01:06< samyazza> it's a university project about strategy games
20110525 17:01:20< Soliton> what university?
20110525 17:01:29< Soliton> pretty cool.
20110525 17:01:32< samyazza> Wesnoth was chosen by the project supervisor, as it is open-source and pretty mature as a project
20110525 17:01:43< samyazza> AGH in Cracow, Poland
20110525 17:01:51< samyazza> looking for an English name
20110525 17:02:20< samyazza> looks like the official English name is AGH University of Science and Technology :)
20110525 17:03:10< Soliton> i see, we have a couple of polish developers at least one is also studying right now. not sure where exactly though.
20110525 17:03:37< samyazza> the goal is to not only make an environment for easy AI creation and modification, but also to create an AI utilizing the American Army Field Manuals 
20110525 17:05:04< samyazza> oh, I've seen a person nicknamed "Grzywacz" while browsing the svn repository
20110525 17:05:20< samyazza> that is a Polish word for sure
20110525 17:05:23< Soliton> yeah, he's one of them.
20110525 17:05:26 * Soliton goes home.
20110525 17:05:34< Soliton> see you later.
20110525 17:05:37< samyazza> bye :)
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20110525 17:36:26 * Nephro reboot
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20110525 18:28:29< timotei> samyazza: there is deekay/dragonking iirc
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20110525 20:40:01< mordante> servus
20110525 20:42:39< mordante> Nephro, I heard before the C++ chan doesn't seem to be too friendly
20110525 20:42:55< mordante> Nephro, and templated code can confuse compilers a lot
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20110525 20:43:31< boucman> hey zaroth
20110525 20:43:37< boucman> is your mail ready ?
20110525 20:44:54< zaroth> boucman: it looks like this right now: http://pastebin.com/djJ1mPqT
20110525 20:45:04< zaroth> I still have to point out the things I want to move around
20110525 20:45:24< zaroth> but I have more or less finished finally scanning the code for the responsibilities I wanted to list
20110525 20:45:49< boucman> I like that list...
20110525 20:46:37< zaroth> yeah, it's far more feasible to discuss, let's move 3a,b,c to game_instance
20110525 20:46:49< zaroth> rather than babbling about 10 game_configs ;-)
20110525 20:48:57< zaroth> by the way, is anyone here interested/familiar in bitcoin project?
20110525 20:51:42< Rhonda> zaroth: I do have bitcoin.
20110525 20:53:20< zaroth> Rhonda: when did you learn about the project? also, what you've been using the btc for and how did you obtain them?
20110525 20:53:58< boucman> zaroth: ok, so what would be your first refactoring step ? I personally that 2.c is a big (in size) part that would deserve to be extracted...
20110525 20:54:12< boucman> (assuming it has the scope I believe it has...)
20110525 20:54:41< zaroth> boucman: cache_ seems to be global right now
20110525 20:54:49< zaroth> iirc
20110525 20:54:52< Rhonda> zaroth: I haven't used any btc yet. There is #bitcoin on here, and there is a faucet that can give you 0.05 BTC
20110525 20:55:33< Rhonda> I did learn about it when someone blogged about it on planet debian, and digged a bit into it.
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20110525 20:58:51< zaroth> boucman: what I meant is, will we need two caches instance once the game config is split from the game_instance config?
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20110525 21:00:22< zaroth> or is it a singleton ?
20110525 21:08:35-!- Blueblaze [~Blueblaze@99.185.11.161] has quit [Quit: Blueblaze]
20110525 21:08:59< boucman> it currently is a singleton IIUC, though it's rarely used as such, functions pass sons of the main config around iiuc
20110525 21:11:28< boucman> again, are you sure you want to start by reorganizing the whole load_cfg thing ? you're trying to shoehorn it in code that's not really organized in a way that make sense
20110525 21:12:00< boucman> you should first reorganize game.cpp to have an architecture following your pholosophy then change the config loading logic...
20110525 21:19:45< boucman> zaroth: comments ?
20110525 21:20:26 * zaroth looks up shoehorn ;-)
20110525 21:20:44< boucman> the piece of metal that helps you put a shoe when the shoe is too small
20110525 21:21:35< zaroth> well, I agree that moving this first might not be the best of ideas, since I already tried this
20110525 21:22:51< zaroth> I didn't research consequences of moving the cache_ first enough yet... But since we both agree that it belongs to game_instance rather than to game, it can well be the first
20110525 21:27:54< timotei> zaroth: the pastebin is empty :(
20110525 21:28:57< boucman> weird, it worked for me...
20110525 21:32:09< zaroth> i set the pastebin expiration times relevant to their expected lifespan
20110525 21:32:22< timotei> >P
20110525 21:32:24< timotei> :P*
20110525 21:32:34< zaroth> since it's a draft of a mail that will be sent to the mailing list anyway, I didn't see any reason to set it longer than 10mins for boucman to peek ;-)
20110525 21:35:01< boucman> zaroth: for other peoples to peak :P
20110525 21:40:18< boucman> so, you understand what I want you to do ? can you have a look at it tomorow, and tell me how it's going tomorow evening ?
20110525 21:42:08< mordante> I'm off bye
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20110525 21:46:06< zaroth> uff... done
20110525 21:46:20< zaroth> timotei: you can enjoy my e-mail in your mailbox if you want now ;-)
20110525 21:46:24< timotei> >D
20110525 21:46:25< timotei> ok
20110525 21:47:18< zaroth> boucman: I'll take a look at the cache right now
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20110525 21:48:14< boucman> ok, but again I think changing the code structure should come first...
20110525 21:49:03< zaroth> isn't moving changing the structure?
20110525 21:49:20< Nephro> Crab_, evening. I was thinking about the caching mechanism for aspects(and probably other Lua stuff). What would be a smart way to find out, whether something actually changed after Lua's last access to it. For example, Lua asks for aggression, the aggression is calculated, then it gets invalidated, but something else might recalculate it before Lua's next request. That means we can't use the validity bools in the aspect code. 
20110525 21:49:22< boucman> depends what you mean by changing the cache loading :)
20110525 21:49:46< zaroth> I'll just try to make current game.cpp code delegate its cache tasks to game_instance
20110525 21:49:51< Crab_> Nephro: evening
20110525 21:49:53< zaroth> and see how many dependencies it will take
20110525 21:50:01< boucman> ok, let's try that...
20110525 21:50:11< zaroth> hopefully less than the whole load_game_cfg()
20110525 21:50:29< timotei> zaroth: no mail yet:-S
20110525 21:50:32< Crab_> Nephro: why you can't use the validity bools in aspect code ?
20110525 21:51:02< zaroth> timotei: blame gna.org ;-)
20110525 21:51:15< Crab_> Nephro: let's take aggression, backed by c++ code. it'll have valid=false, valid_lua =false
20110525 21:51:38< Crab_> Nephro: then, we ask for it in lua, it'll have valid=true, valid_lua=true
20110525 21:51:52< Crab_> Nephro: then, it gets invalidated, it gets valid=false valid_lua=false
20110525 21:52:20< Crab_> then, something else (c++) will recalc it before lua next request, it'll have valid=true valid_lua=false
20110525 21:52:26< Crab_> then, we get it from lua
20110525 21:52:49< Crab_> we'll see that we don't have to recalculate it (since we have valid=true), but we still have to convert from c++ to lua form (because valid_lua is false)
20110525 21:53:00< Crab_> Nephro: any issues with this approach ?
20110525 21:56:35-!- crimson_penguin [~ben@wesnoth/developer/crimsonpenguin] has quit [Quit: crimson_penguin]
20110525 21:57:02< Crab_> zaroth: ok, I've read your email
20110525 21:57:40< Crab_> zaroth: personally, I think that we need to write docs first, then change the code, since we can change the code, but it's hard to figure out what the end solution would look like
20110525 21:58:15< Crab_> zaroth: i.e., you are talking about define domains, but do you know how you intend them to work in the end ?
20110525 21:58:18< Nephro> Crab_, hmm, you're right. Then my idea is simple. We have a aspects table in lua, where aspect names will be the keys, and a metamethod would check the validity and ask for a new value if valid_lua_ is false.
20110525 21:58:38< zaroth> Crab_: I realized it a bit too late, since after your last explanation I felt like I could jump right into the code ... and failed
20110525 21:58:51< zaroth> so any steps towards a more planned approach are certainly welcome
20110525 21:59:23< Crab_> Nephro: keep in mind that somewhen later you'll need to allow a way to replace an aspect with another implementation
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20110525 21:59:47< Crab_> Nephro: and ai.aspects['aggression'] = bar() will not work if ai.aspects['aggression'] will just return the value of aggression
20110525 22:00:13< zaroth> Crab_: regarding the define domains, I thought of 3 solutions
20110525 22:00:22 * zaroth looks up chat log
20110525 22:01:09< Crab_> Nephro: on the other hand, we look up aggression a lot more often than we use it
20110525 22:04:02< zaroth> oh, it wasn't exactly about define domains, but regardless - the defines could be either called and collected on game_instance which holds the campaign relevant WML and reloads all of them once a campaign is chosen, now with the defines (which is the way it is done now, but would be just moved to another class)
20110525 22:04:56< zaroth> or there could be some some special path-parametrized function, which would reload just the parts that are relevant
20110525 22:05:24< Crab_> Nephro: so, ai.aggression is a lot more 'easier' syntax to use
20110525 22:05:24< zaroth> however, I could surely use input here, since I don't see a clear way how to do this with current system, so I will probably stick to the first idea
20110525 22:05:38< Crab_> zaroth: I'd not care for the current system too much )
20110525 22:05:54< Crab_> zaroth: just keep the target in mind, 'how do you want it to work in the end?'
20110525 22:06:47< Crab_> zaroth: so, at least for start, I'd just gather the requirements , on less technical level
20110525 22:07:03< zaroth> so what a feasible solution is: make it so that all of the define= specified in [campaign] work only in the subdirectories of the campaign?
20110525 22:07:19< Crab_> zaroth: that's a good question.
20110525 22:07:27< zaroth> because with this assumption, it would be feasible to make a partial reload system
20110525 22:07:55< Crab_> zaroth: a question of eras comes to mind. how we want them to work ?
20110525 22:08:16< Crab_> zaroth: i.e., if we keep each campaign separate, how can addons/eras influence them ?
20110525 22:08:49< zaroth> well, the easiest way to cope with that would be to just choose them at the same time
20110525 22:08:56< zaroth> take defines from both
20110525 22:09:01< zaroth> and reload (partially) both
20110525 22:09:19< zaroth> but it's by no way robust ;-)
20110525 22:09:42< zaroth> that way, if the defines were specified before the reloading of both, they could affect each other
20110525 22:10:04< zaroth> which is probably desirable in case of era affecting campaign, but not so the other way around
20110525 22:10:16< Nephro> Crab_, you want the ai.<aspect> to be an lvalue too? i.e. to make ai.aggression = 0.1 to actually modify the aspect?
20110525 22:10:43< Crab_> Nephro: this is a design choice
20110525 22:11:01< Crab_> Nephro: what do you think is better ?
20110525 22:11:34< Crab_> keep in mind that 99% of the time we use a value
20110525 22:11:40< Crab_> and only 1% we want to change
20110525 22:12:39< Nephro> Crab_, well, I haven't noticed a mechanism that alters the values of aspects... And I am a bit scared of the composite_aspects... If ai.aggression = 0.1 would mean "delete whatever aggression we have now, create a new lua aspect with value 0.1", then it is seems fine
20110525 22:12:41< Crab_> Nephro: A possible solution is   a separate table for component access      ai.components.aggression = function() { ... }
20110525 22:12:54< Crab_> Nephro: lua aspects should kill composite aspects :)
20110525 22:13:22< Nephro> Crab_, I got that, but I presume there is a need for backwards compatibility
20110525 22:13:34< Crab_> Nephro: it is achievable.
20110525 22:13:48< Crab_> Nephro: composite aspect can be converted to lua aspect
20110525 22:14:12< Crab_> Nephro: some places can't be, but they should be recoded. the syntax was ugly in the first place.
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20110525 22:14:36< Crab_> Nephro: and note that both might be used, it's just the recommended
20110525 22:16:31< Crab_> zaroth: so, as you see, there's a lot of stuff to document before starting coding
20110525 22:17:02< Crab_> zaroth: also note that some addons are libraries, i.e. contain some lua lib code
20110525 22:17:09< Crab_> zaroth: so, we should take care to not break those
20110525 22:17:41< zaroth> I also just noticed that the potential campaign defines possibly could even change some GUI2 stuff...
20110525 22:17:48< Crab_> yeah
20110525 22:17:52< zaroth> as it is now, since it's also reloaded if i see correctly
20110525 22:17:54< Crab_> zaroth: I think that we need to talk about dependency graph for all the stuff we have in that WML
20110525 22:18:12< zaroth> shouldn't it be separated? Like the game stuff from game settings stuff from gui2 stuff?
20110525 22:18:13< Crab_> I think that eras are special because they modify 'on top of scenario'
20110525 22:18:28< Crab_> and all other stuff should be used by scenario
20110525 22:18:36< Crab_> but there might be transitive dependencies
20110525 22:18:48< zaroth> transitive?
20110525 22:19:02< Crab_> i.e. what if campaign uses a lib which uses a lib which uses a lib which has different stuff for easy and hard difficulty
20110525 22:20:22< zaroth> hmm... I presume that you'd see such lib-unlocking defines in extra_defines= in [campaign] header?
20110525 22:21:58< boucman> ouch
20110525 22:22:09< boucman> libs are a complicated case indeed
20110525 22:22:12< zaroth> or to build something else... which would have to change the way as we see packages in wesnoth right now
20110525 22:22:33< boucman> do campaigns explicitely state their dependencies ? if not I think it would be a good idea to force them to do so...
20110525 22:22:46< Crab_> zaroth: extra_defines need recursion to be collected fully...
20110525 22:22:48< zaroth> or maybe keep track which #ifdefs are used in which files
20110525 22:23:15< Crab_> zaroth: no, the presence of #ifdef should not be a dependency, imo
20110525 22:23:32< Crab_> zaroth: also note optional dependencies
20110525 22:24:05< Crab_> (before a certain change, missing includes were not fatal, after a certain change, it's possible to guard them with #ifhave )
20110525 22:24:09< zaroth> well, I'd say that presence of an #ifdef in a visible part of wml (that is, not excluded by another external #ifdef) pretty much says it's relevant to reload that file once that particular define changes
20110525 22:24:41< zaroth> dunno on how difficult and costly would be to keep track of this, though
20110525 22:24:56< Crab_> zaroth: yes and no.
20110525 22:25:44< zaroth> I'm all ears
20110525 22:25:47< zaroth> why not?
20110525 22:26:25< zaroth> or maybe, we could specify something like this:
20110525 22:26:32< Crab_> zaroth: imagine code like #ifdef ZZZ  error message 'my addon is not compatible with ZZZ'; error; #endif
20110525 22:26:54< zaroth> [campaign] defines=FOO,BAR global_defines=BAZ,GOO
20110525 22:27:08< Crab_> zaroth: this doesn't mean that this addon depends on ZZZ and wants it loaded before it, quite the contrary
20110525 22:27:26< Crab_> zaroth: what about transitive libs ?
20110525 22:27:39< Crab_> zaroth: if you have campaigns and libraries, and you pick  a campaign...
20110525 22:27:48< Crab_> zaroth: and it says it depends on libs A,B,C ...
20110525 22:28:02< Crab_> zaroth: then, how will we collect 'which libs to load' ?
20110525 22:28:40< zaroth> hmm...
20110525 22:29:23< zaroth> how about doing it "the current way" then
20110525 22:29:41< zaroth> that is, including the necessary libs within its own campaign define guard
20110525 22:29:48< zaroth> the way the scenarios are included now
20110525 22:30:01< zaroth> this way the campaign author could load any dependencies in the order he wants
20110525 22:30:21< Crab_> so,        set defines for stuff to load and difficulty, then  'load core, load era, load campaign' ?
20110525 22:30:29< zaroth> difficulty would also be specified by then
20110525 22:30:41< zaroth> so tricky difficulty-dependant libs would work
20110525 22:31:19< Crab_> yes
20110525 22:32:06< Crab_> so,      1) set defines specified by campaign metadata and era metadata, 2) load core 3) load era 4) load campaign    ?
20110525 22:32:06< zaroth> now, to do what you said, we would have to some way of specifying "what is an era" (that is, what directory it is)
20110525 22:32:53< zaroth> because without that we can't really reload era and campaign in a specified order
20110525 22:33:25< zaroth> since we don't know where they are in our soup of tags, so we would just reload the whole userdata dir
20110525 22:34:25< Crab_> if we have _main.cfg with    [all stuff]{core} {eras} {campaigns} [/all stuff], and just load everything...
20110525 22:34:58< Crab_> with all the defines set, it will just load everything with the defines in correct order
20110525 22:35:19< zaroth> mind you, the eras can have defines too
20110525 22:35:40< zaroth> are we taking for granted that the era and campaign are chosen at the same time?
20110525 22:36:23< zaroth> and they defines are loaded simultaneously then before reloading the chain 1-4 you specified?
20110525 22:37:08< zaroth> s/they/their/
20110525 22:37:37< zaroth> boucman: well, to state their dependencies, we would have to have a way in which to express the dependencies
20110525 22:37:50< zaroth> I'm not aware of something like this existing now...
20110525 22:38:36< boucman> don't every downloadable content have a unique id we could use ?
20110525 22:39:23< Crab_> zaroth:  "are we taking for granted that the era and campaign are chosen at the same time?", at least both are known before game starts 
20110525 22:39:34< Crab_> zaroth:  and they defines are loaded simultaneously - in this approach, yes
20110525 22:40:04< zaroth> boucman: is the id somehow connected to the add-on contents? because afaik it's in a separate file, something like _server.cfg or what
20110525 22:40:23< boucman> you mean the pbl file ?
20110525 22:40:29< boucman> maybe... hmm
20110525 22:40:34< zaroth> yes, probably
20110525 22:40:46< zaroth> since the add-ons are currently non-structured
20110525 22:41:07< zaroth> you can put inside pretty much everything you want, without any kind of central headers
20110525 22:41:15< zaroth> (especially when it's just a library)
20110525 22:41:24< zaroth> it's hard to determine what to reload as a dependency
20110525 22:41:54< zaroth> maybe using the pbl file and extending its use would be a way to go
20110525 22:42:39< zaroth> like specifying the dependencies ids of other add-ons there inside
20110525 22:42:49< zaroth> together with their minimal versions
20110525 22:43:25< zaroth> (to be able to produce some warnings if a user is treading a thin line)
20110525 22:43:39< zaroth> this way, the mainline wesnoth content could also get a .pbl as well
20110525 22:43:56< zaroth> with something like id=wesnoth-core version=1.9.6
20110525 22:44:42< zaroth> to make it possible to indicate that the wesnoth core should be reloaded in search for defines after using this addon as well
20110525 22:45:08< zaroth> (this data could be also used by the add-on manager later)
20110525 22:45:36< zaroth> the problem with this would be tying the .pbl to the contents... maybe a simple directory based structure would work
20110525 22:45:37< Crab_> zaroth: 'wesnoth core should be reloaded in search for defines after using this addon as well' - does that make much sence? (almost) everything depends on core, thanks to core macros
20110525 22:45:45< Crab_> s/sence/sense
20110525 22:45:45< Nephro> Does wesnoth use any optimizations flags for gcc in the debug build? I am constantly failing to trigger a breakpoint, although I am 99% sure that a piece of code is executed
20110525 22:46:37< zaroth> well, I don't know, maybe someone would like to specify his own version of one of mainline macros
20110525 22:46:38< boucman> Nephro: check the last 1% :P
20110525 22:47:00< zaroth> what happens when the same define is to be parsed second time?
20110525 22:47:08< zaroth> is it replaced or dropped?
20110525 22:47:16< zaroth> if replaced, there potentially could be a use
20110525 22:47:32< zaroth> (probably not too large, I'll give you that)
20110525 22:47:41< Nephro> boucman, that's almost impossible... 
20110525 22:48:15< zaroth> another relevant example is enabling custom unit from core
20110525 22:48:25< zaroth> such as armageddon drake
20110525 22:48:46< zaroth> you would certainly like to have core reloaded and reparsed with your define before game start
20110525 22:48:47-!- MeccaGod [~majs@h14n4fls31o279.telia.com] has quit []
20110525 22:48:54< zaroth> so you add wesnoth-core as a dependency
20110525 22:49:13< zaroth> if you don't touch wesnoth-core and don't intend to, well, no need for the reload
20110525 22:49:36< zaroth> (Crab_, boucman please control me if I'm making sense and not striving too far ;-) )
20110525 22:51:40< boucman> how about splitting core too ?
20110525 22:52:23< boucman> we shouldn't load the parts o core that are game_instance parts before game is chosen and all parameters parsed... and at that point it's not reloading, it's loading...
20110525 22:55:38< zaroth> good point, core/ certainly could be split into several parts
20110525 22:55:39 * Nephro is stepping through the whole game code, because he can't trigger a damn breakpoint
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20110525 22:56:52< zaroth> Crab_: I'm writing some reports of how I'm doing to boucman from time to time, can I CC: you in these?
20110525 22:57:03< Crab_> yes, of course
20110525 23:03:29< zaroth> so... any comments ?
20110525 23:04:36< boucman> i'm still  a bit confused what the final plan is, I must admit
20110525 23:05:21< Crab_> zaroth: I'd ignore the pbls, as of now
20110525 23:06:06< CIA-94> esr * r49651 /trunk/data/campaigns/Liberty/scenarios/01_The_Raid.cfg: Add a translator's note.
20110525 23:06:12< zaroth> so, how would you solve the dependancy problem?
20110525 23:06:42< zaroth> just to reload everything (and hope that add-on authors specified correct defines?)
20110525 23:06:46< Crab_> let era and campaigns specify the list of defines in their metadata
20110525 23:09:40< boucman> yes, I think that's what makes most sense...
20110525 23:10:27< zaroth> so, to reiterate your mock-up plan:
20110525 23:10:49< zaroth>  1) set defines 1a) clear whole cache 2) load core 3) load era 4) load campaign
20110525 23:11:02< zaroth> 1a > 0
20110525 23:11:07< zaroth> sorry ;-)
20110525 23:11:26< Crab_> yes, something like this
20110525 23:11:52< Crab_> Nephro: breakpoint where ?
20110525 23:13:29< Nephro> Crab_, I got it already... Now I have a different problem.
20110525 23:13:42< Crab_> ok
20110525 23:14:07< Crab_> zaroth: and make a separate 'entry point' into 'your rules of play'
20110525 23:14:17< Nephro> Crab_, do you remember(have) the lua_object.hpp file?
20110525 23:14:29< Crab_> Nephro: yes, slightly.
20110525 23:14:35< Nephro> I'll post it
20110525 23:15:16< zaroth> well, one of my points (which led to the whole pbl rant) was that we can't really distinguish 3) from 4), do you agree?
20110525 23:15:29< zaroth> so it's more like 3) load userdata
20110525 23:15:36< Crab_> why we cannot ?
20110525 23:15:54< zaroth> so how can we do it?
20110525 23:17:08< Crab_> current code does ' const config &era_cfg = game_config().find_child("era","id",era); '
20110525 23:17:23< zaroth> hmm... let me have a look
20110525 23:17:46< zaroth> maybe I had a misconception of how [era]s look like
20110525 23:19:27< zaroth> ah... so all the units are actually inside the [era] tag!
20110525 23:19:35< zaroth> i thought it was more like [era_header]
20110525 23:20:41< zaroth> which only would be used for getting the define= to unlock units and then reload it, like campaigns do
20110525 23:21:09< Nephro> http://ideone.com/f1Ju1 -- here is the file. I keep a smart pointer to lua_object_base and call the store_value() method on it. The object is actually an instance of lua_object<T>. After that I call get(), but now using a smart pointer to lua_object<T>. Get returns junk, although store_value seems to store the correct value. I don't see where the value get's lost, all the smart pointers seem fine
20110525 23:21:22< zaroth> I guess I didn't look into eras enough and got influenced by the [campaign] structure *blushes*
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20110525 23:22:09< Nephro> AAaand, I think I know where the error is again...
20110525 23:31:38 * Nephro got the aspects to work... even a year hasn't passed
20110525 23:32:37< Crab_> :)
20110525 23:32:46< Crab_> well, only a few days since the exams were over
20110525 23:33:05< Crab_> post the patch when you're happy with it, I want to take a look
20110525 23:34:20< Nephro> I fell for the naughty pointer trick again... This time it was trickier... Now I had other shared pointers to an object, but I created one of a slightly different type(to the parent class) and it of course destroyed the object each time... I swear, I promised myself never to fall for this again
20110525 23:41:47-!- zookeeper [~l@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has quit []
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20110525 23:46:13< Nephro> OK, I think I need some sleep. Good night. (Crab_, I'll send that patch tomorrow in the morning side)
20110525 23:46:19< Crab_> night
20110525 23:47:09< zaroth> by the way, was there a signing party on wesdem?
20110525 23:47:18-!- Valkier [~Valkier@c-174-55-104-2.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20110525 23:47:28< Crab_> zaroth: there was at fosdem, but afair we missed it.
20110525 23:47:40-!- Nephro [~neph@80.233.231.12] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20110525 23:47:43< zaroth> I created my gpg key a while ago, but since none of my friends use it, I don't have any signatures yet..
20110525 23:49:32< zaroth> Crab_: could you elaborate a bit what do you mean by "entrypoint"? because the way I saw it would be using a lot of if (game_config::new_syntax) new_foo(); else old_foo();
20110525 23:49:37< zaroth> in game.cpp
20110525 23:49:50< zaroth> where the --new-syntax is a commandline arg
20110525 23:50:19< Crab_> I'd make it a       if (game_config::new_syntax) { ... go from game config into a totally separate world where dragons live ... }
20110525 23:50:39< Crab_> to avoid messing with old code till you've got something that works
20110525 23:50:58< CIA-94> esr * r49652 /trunk/data/campaigns/Son_Of_The_Black_Eye/scenarios/ (12_Giving_Some_Back.cfg 14_Back_Home.cfg): Eliminate Earth names.
20110525 23:51:26< zaroth> yeah, but the point is that if I for example want to move cache_ (actually that's an easy one, but still), there are like 10 more places in game.cpp which reference to that
20110525 23:51:53< zaroth> should they all be if() {} guarded... ? it looks a bit messy
20110525 23:52:06< Crab_> I'd move away from game.cpp somewhere else
20110525 23:52:07< zaroth> (but it's probably the most sound way to do it)
20110525 23:52:16< Crab_> i.e. don't move the code, but move the control flow
20110525 23:53:29< zaroth> could you elaborate?
20110525 23:53:44< zaroth> well, I tried moving the load_game_cfg() function for example to game_instance (since it should belong there)
20110525 23:54:05< zaroth> and got almost killed on the way by the amount of interdependences I would have to solve
20110525 23:54:48< zaroth> but according to you, I shouldn't have tried moving it...?
20110525 23:55:48< zaroth> but move the control flow, so make the game_instance simply call it by a back-reference to game_controller...? that way the "control flow" would be moved, but the actual code would stay at its
20110525 23:55:53< zaroth> place, is that what you meant?
20110525 23:57:47< zaroth> mordante: I'd like to create a few design documents and keep them in .tex in the source code with a few flow diagrams
20110525 23:57:48< Crab_> zaroth: at first, I meant simply 'make a mode in which the main game loop in main menu would be handled by different functions'
20110525 23:58:46< Crab_> zaroth: i.e., write a simple main game loop for main menu from scratch
20110525 23:59:09< zaroth> mordante: any tips before I start (I'll probably start looking more seriously into it no sooner than friday)  ? which tools to use, etc.? My experience with TeX is "advanced beginner" ;-) 
--- Log closed Thu May 26 00:00:19 2011